Bill Gates: The Untold Story of Who Bill Gates REALLY Is

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, It's Jay Schetty and I'm thrilled to announce
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(00:23):
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I can't wait to see you there. Tickets are on
sell now. Head to Jayshetty dot me and get yours today.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
This is a world where somebody can have over one
hundred billion dollars. What is that These fortunes are almost
illegitimate unless in a very smart way given back. One
of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Exploring and investing in innovative solutions.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
To some of the world's toughest problems, Bill Gates. Starting
with Microsoft, where I had monomaniacal focus, giving up weekends
and vacation wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it. The
idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed,
so it was kind of fun say no, no, this
is really going to be mainstream.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
If you look at it from the outside, you see
Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy. What
was actually like?

Speaker 2 (01:18):
He said, we were the General Motors and he was
Mercedes Social Networking. We're still arguing about what the policy
should be. Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if they're not
at all factual. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.
He would say, hey, I'm sorry, I worked so hard,
and I'd say, no, no, no, that was fine. I feel

(01:39):
lucky that he lived as long as he did. It
brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Do you remember one of the final conversations you had
within the number one Health and Well in his podcast,
Jay Shetty Bill Gates, Welcome to on Purpose. Thank you
so much for this opportunity. I'm so grateful, great.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
To be here.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
I have to start by saying that when I was
reading source code, I believe I got an unbelievable perspective
and a deep sense of gratitude that I didn't have
before for how hard it is to build code, software
and computers. And I really feel that my generation and

(02:30):
beyond have often taken for granted these inventions, and so
I just wanted to start by saying that's what took
me by surprise, and I was blown away as to
the challenges of getting access to even using a computer,
through being given permission, through to all the other battles
that came with that journey. I was really really amazed
and taken aback. So thank you for that. How does

(02:51):
that feel hearing that.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
The idea that everybody would use computer was somewhat you know, ridiculed.
So it was kind of fun to be part of
a movement saying no, no, this is really going to
be mainstream. We're going to make them cheaper and better.
And you know the fact that I was lucky enough
through my experience to be in on that secret and
to get to kind of lead the way, you know,

(03:14):
seeing that software would be the missing piece, I couldn't
have been more lucky. And you know, now that's given
me a lot of resources to to give back.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Absolutely, and that's why I wanted to ask you. The
first question was what would you say is the most
recent invention that you've genuinely been impressed by? Because I
imagine that's quite hard for you, But is there a
consumer product or something that really took you by surprising
that you would say impressed you.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, my whole career has been about innovation, whether it's
Microsoft with software and now all this incredible AI advance.
I do work on climate, which you know, we're trying
to come up with innovation that can make clean products
cost as little as the dirty puts so we can
get them out there. And then my full time work

(04:04):
is the Gates Foundation, where we're always coming up with
new vaccines, new drugs. You know, we're even trying to
come up with a way to cure HIV so you
don't have to keep taking the medicine there. You know,
I'd say the current work to understand why kids get
malnourished is the thing I'm most excited about. Forty percent

(04:25):
of kids in Africa don't develop their body or their
brain and understanding, okay, what is it. They're getting enough calories,
but there's something about that mix that you know, they
never achieve their potential, either for themselves individually or for
the country that they're part of. So I've gotten to

(04:47):
be it's there's so many cool innovations and that the
pace of all of that is going faster today than
ever in my lifetime, you know. So it's a real
privilege to work with innovators and back some of the
them on things like malaria or malnutrition, which the market
doesn't get resources to do that work. And you know,

(05:09):
that's where philanthropy can make a very dramatic difference.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Absolutely, And as you were saying, discovering your potential was
something that really happened for you on a lot of
hikes that you went on in the book. And I
loved learning about how being outdoors with such an integral
part of your childhood and growing up. And I was wondering,
if you could go on any hike in the world
anyway right now, where would it be, Where would you
choose to be.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
I take a lot of vacations near beaches, and I
enjoy whoever i'm with, getting you know, two or three
hours walking on the beach. You know, that's a great
way to get updates from my kids and have them
share what they're doing. I will say the forest hiking
that I did as a child up in the Seattleeriot's
called the Olympic Peninsula. There, there's just unbelievable hikes, and

(05:56):
even though in that group of boys, I was the
lead capable hiker and I would always vote for the
shortest hike and going home the soonest just the camaraderie
and the kind of beauty, you know, was so stunning.
I really have to get back and do some of those.
I haven't. I haven't done a lot of that, uh,
since I was I was young.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Whoa, whoa, Is it just a lack of time.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, I'd gotten myself so busy. I mean, you know,
starting with Microsoft, where I had a monomaniacal focus, you know,
kind of giving up weekends and vacation because I wanted
to move faster. It wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved,
loved it, but it meant that I shut a lot
of other things out. And then only when I retired

(06:44):
from Microsoft did I get to go back and take
a little more time off. And you know, see all
the other great things going on in the world, including
all this health stuff. That is the thing I spend
the most time on Now.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, there's so much conversation today I feel about life balance.
Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time
was necessary for the levels of success or would it
have been possible in another way.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
No. I think for Microsoft to be successful, even though
we were the first we and we had a broader
concept of software than the other companies, we needed to
be what I would call hardcore. And you know, in
that case, the work is what I want to do.
It's it's not like, oh God, you know, I've got

(07:29):
to earn a little bit more money. It's you know,
this is the thing that throughout my childhood I was
so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some
early friends. The school I went to, I had these
exposures to computers that were very rare, and so I had,
you know, all these thousands of hours of programming experience

(07:52):
and great feedback on okay, how do you do it
better from the very best adults. I got to see
what was coming and the idea of being part of
making that real. You know, I woke up and said, okay,
I'd love to get to work. My younger self could
stay in you know, days at a time. I don't
do that now. But then it was just in no

(08:13):
way a hardship because I felt we were part of
something that was would be very empowering and you know,
competitively I wanted us to be the ones to make
it happen.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is
you've said, we overestimate what we can do in one year,
and we underestimate what we can do in ten yea
is at the beginning, did you overall underestimate yourself?

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Well, people when they would hear us say a computer
on every desk and in every home running Microsoft software,
they were like, you kids are really out of it.
I mean every desk, every home. You know, what would
people do with these things? But because the chips were
improving exponentially, doubling every couple of years, it allowed us

(09:03):
to think of the computing part as essentially being free.
And so the only thing that would hold you back
is you know, okay, can you help people with photographs?
Can you help them with documents? Can you help them
stay in touch with people far away? Or find information?
And we knew over time that as these things got better,

(09:27):
it would would be part of the mainstream. And so
as people sort of came around to that, they were like, Wow,
whether it's at work or at home, this is just
part of how people do things. And we wanted, you know,
to get it out to everyone, you know, students everywhere,
you know, even in the countries that are low income.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
You mentioned your parents earlier, and when I was reading
this book, I felt like they are such a big
paw of this book and the storytelling and the incredible
experience is a memory. And one of the things you
mentioned is you say that they felt that they accepted
that you were different from your peers. And I was wondering,
in what way, how did you know that they'd seen

(10:09):
that and accepted that.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Well, definitely confounded them that Sometimes I was pushing back
in a pretty tough way, you know, as though you know,
we were in some competition. They would hear from teachers,
and they were very good about staying in touch with
my teachers. You know. Some teachers would say this kid
should be skipped ahead one or two grades. Some teachers

(10:32):
would say this kid should be held back. You know,
so that kind of is what you know, make up
your mind. You know. I had one experience where I
worked on a report about the state of Delaware and
I ended up doing this two hundred page report with
the great recover. Well, the other kids turned in you know,
five or ten page reports, and it was very embarrassing

(10:53):
that I thought, Wow, did I you know, kind of
overdo this thing? And yet you know that ability to concentrate,
you know, would hold me in good stead in terms
of reading long books and applying that concentration and curiosity
first to cards, then to math, and then finally to
software and how would software change the world. But you know,

(11:17):
they never were quite sure what to do, and you know,
sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant,
and sending me to a very nice private school where
the classes were a bit smaller and you know I
could get I always got an unfair share of attention
from the teachers. You know, we'd have like fifteen people

(11:38):
in the class, but you know, almost twenty percent of
the teacher's time in terms of telling me what to
read or you know, marking my writing up. You know,
I got an unfair share partly because my curiosity or
energy level you know, did mark me out in both
positive and negative ways.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah. What influence do you think doctor Christie actually had
on you? Because therapy had that time and in your
early edge, looking back on it, now, what do you
feel it gave you? What skills did they give you?

Speaker 2 (12:07):
Well, it's very It was a very rare thing. In fact,
the other people coming to him were these couples that
were having arguments, and so in a I hope privacy
appropriate way, he would kind of give me a sense
of that. He gave me a few IQ tasks. He
you know, had me read about Freud and all these things.
But slowly, but surely he was saying to me that

(12:30):
fighting your parents really has no purpose. I mean, they
really do love you, they're on your side. You should
apply your energy towards other things. And you know, eventually
he made me feel kind of foolish, like, yeah, why
was I taking these what I thought were kind of
arbitrary rules or where my mom would say you should

(12:51):
respect me and I'd say, well, you know, I don't know.
And a little bit as I figured out I could
understand things like playing cards as well, are better than
my grandmother, or you know, I could read books had
complicated things. I was a bit showing off to saying,
because my cognition is good, why should you be able
to set arbitrary rules. But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I

(13:13):
think about it now. But doctor Crussey was so encouraging
to me in general, and then got across. He probably
understood at the first meeting that I had to be
convinced to make this change. But he did it in
this super nice way. And so the idea that no,

(13:36):
my parents, yes they're imperfect, but wow, they're on my side,
that that changed my behavior.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, and did he as had these beautiful ways of
you said he never belittled you, And I believe he
used to mention to you going to win or he
wanted you to win. And I feel like that's what
did those things do because it's almost like you're saying
he made you have this almost there's this realization that
you were wrong. But it seemed like he did it
in a very graceful, elegant way, Like how did how

(14:07):
did he do that?

Speaker 2 (14:07):
Absolutely? They you know, I thought, oh, I need to
be so clever to win, and I'm going to apply
all this energy to win. And so the idea when
he says, no, you're going to win, it's like, oh,
I see, it's not because I'm clever, It's because it's
as you know, they they care for me and they're trying,
you know, to help me, and you know their main

(14:29):
concern is am I ready? You know? To go out
in the world and if I have capabilities, will I
develop those and use those? And you know, my mom
always had a way of kind of pushing me to
do more. I said to her once, you know, you
told me to go to the heart of school and
she said, no, I never actually said that, And I said, well,

(14:52):
wait a minute. When other parents would come over, you'd
say how bad they must feel that their kid didn't
go to college or something like that. So, okay, it
was indirect, but you know it was kind of there.
So you know, my mom certainly encouraged me, you know,
and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by that. But my eventual

(15:13):
reaction to just okay, try to outdo any levels she
set and ended up working out.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Well, yeah, what was something that you didn't value about
your mom at that time that now looking back, you say, no,
I do value that.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, things like table manners. I'm like, well, you know, okay,
I have to take the catch up and put it
in a bowl and then do this, and I'm not
supposed to put my elbows on the table. And you know,
she was just you know, trying to make sure I
was civilized a little bit. You know, what I would
wear and they definitely got me engaged with adults. You know,

(15:50):
my social skills were slow to develop with people other
than a few boys like myself, but with adults because
they were having them over and I, you know, God,
so I could ask those adults to talk about what
they were doing. That was really valuable to me, because
I ended up through that and through one of my
early friends, having more of an outlook of okay, where

(16:13):
am I headed at quite a young age, which was
super helpful.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, it's so funny. As I was reading the book,
I was reminded of so when I graduated from college,
I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left
to become a monk, and my parents were They were
very kind and accepting of my decision. But my mother
still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture

(16:40):
of me graduating wearing the hat and you know, holding
my certificate. And I remember I was having the same
feeling that you were where my mom would always may
say to me, Oh, when I go to my friend's houses,
they're telling them about all the jobs that their kids
are doing and the apartment they just moved into, and
you're just there being a monk, like you know, she'd
say that to me, and it was always that kind
of feeling, like that sense of pressure to live up

(17:03):
to something she wanted me to do, even though there
was love and there was acceptance and I was wondering
for you, like you said it yourself. She was such
a powerhouse. She had such high expectations. When did you
feel that you reached that or do you feel you've
reached that?

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Well? Unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early sixties.
She got breast cancer, and so I had gotten married
six months before she passed this away, so she never
got to see that. I tried to follow her example
as a parent. She never got to see the foundation

(17:40):
get going. My dad actually ran the foundation and got
it off to a fantastic start, so he was involved.
But her sort of dictate about, Okay, if you are successful,
you have to give back. It's a shame that she
didn't get to kind of participate and see that. I'm
following what she said despite all the times I pushed

(18:04):
back on her.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, do you still feel that today that it's almost
like she had voices in your head and she's present
in that way. Oh?

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Absolutely. The you know, the sense I have of okay,
I've got to do this and do that. Well, that's
you know, really came from her. My dad more set
the example of being calm and thoughtful, you know, also great,
great values. But much you know, it wasn't through the interaction.
He would you know, leave pretty early. And if my

(18:34):
mom had to escalate to call him in, you knew
you better give in because that was kind of the
ultimate thing. But yeah, so each in their own way,
he through example, her through high expectations, deserve a lot
of credit. And you know, part of this book is
to really honor them. And uh, two of the young

(18:57):
friends I had who set me on a a great path.

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make sure you use the code on Purpose. I was wondering,

(20:28):
what was your biggest realization about your father from writing
this book.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
It's weird. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.
His values, even the exchange with my mom. You know,
before they get married. His One of his dreams was
to be a federal judge, and he eventually that was
offered to him. And because his law firm would have

(20:55):
had great difficulties, he said, now, I that would hurt
my colleagues, so I'm not going to do that. And
I had written him a note saying, gosh, I hope
it's not because she had to pay all that tuition,
that you're not getting to do this, and I'd forgotten
he'd written me back such a nice note. So, you know,
in digging through, I'm amazed we end up keeping those things.
It was so touching to me. Now, I you know,

(21:18):
I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to
the example.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
He said, what was it like finding that reply? Forgetting
that he had replied, I mean no.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well, certainly it brings tears to my eyes, because you know,
he was incredible, and towards the end of his life
we did get a little more direct, you know, where
he would say, hey, I'm sorry, I work so hard,
and I'd say, no, no, no, that was fine to be
doing that, you know. And so instead of things being

(21:48):
sort of through my mom when she was gone, he
had to build up that communication in a way it
was far more intimate. You know, I feel lucky that
he lived as long as he did.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
D How does that as that relationship evolves, Like it
felt like when I was reading source Code, I felt
like your father was there to always save you in
these moments, like he'd pick up the phone, he'd be
involved in, you know, talking to you and your friends,
like he was there in these very pivotal moments that
felt like almost professional support from him, of course based
on his intelligence and background as well, But it sounds

(22:22):
like that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space
like that. What does that look like for a father
and a son across all those years?

Speaker 2 (22:29):
You know, and when I was going off to college,
you know, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks,
but you know, you couldn't like text and send photos
and so but I always knew, you know, that they
were supportive. And so I actually got into a little
bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the
computer center and done some of the early Microsoft basic work,

(22:54):
and the college as they filled position to supervise that
computer center, like wow, did you break the rules? And
you know, my dad was always so kind of wise.
You know, when I ever, it was like, oh my god,
I may have screw it up here. I better get
on top of this. You know, that's a time where

(23:15):
I call him in and his advice is very helpful.
You know. Then later we have a customer who's not
paying us and our very first customer, another case where
my dad encouraged me to stay the course. So it
wasn't in those days that I talked to him a lot,
but that when I was in trouble, he was the

(23:37):
one person, you know who was so sophisticated, and you
know on my side that his advice really did help
me at a lot of key turning points. And you know,
then later when we have a relationship where we actually
talk intimately, I was able to to thank him for that.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Do you remember one of the final conversations you had
with him, and.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well he got Alzheimer's and he because he was such
a nice person, he was still like super nice, you know,
always worried did his caregivers get enough meals or you know,
eventually the fact he grew up in the depression showed
because he'd be worried about you know, are we buying
too expensive a meal, you know, even though he had

(24:25):
as much money as he could ever need, you know,
so you know, we got back to his basic character,
which was just very friendly and thoughtful. So yes, I
feel like in his case, we did have those conversations
that I never got to have with my mom.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
There's the one phone call you described the three words
he used of I hear you when he was talking
to the school, and that left such a strong imprint.
Could you tell us why that was such a big
moment for you?

Speaker 2 (24:59):
At that time, I was in this contract discussion with
this group. I thought, you know, owed me some computer time.
So that's the first time that my dad is pitching
into help, and you know, I thought, what's he going
to do? Is he gonna, you know, threaten them or

(25:19):
be tough on them? And no, not at all. The
fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument,
and then you know, he just simply said I hear you,
which was this way of saying, you know, I don't
agree with that. You know, let's try and reach a
compromise here. You have your point of view. So just

(25:40):
the way he said I hear you, you know, kept
things really calm, didn't acknowledge or attack their position, so
we could get on to the Hey, you know, if
you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both
of you here? Which is is what eventually came out

(26:03):
of it. And so the idea of being subtle and
helping to find that common ground I was young enough
to that was kind of blew my mind. Yeah, wow,
you can kind of hold your ground but without being provocative.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
What would you say is the one way your mother
influenced your parenting style and then your father influenced your
parenting style.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Well, this idea that it was actually kind of school
called love and logic, where you make expectations to the
child very very clear, and you make consequences very very clear,
and in an unemotional way, you say no, you're going
to have to go to your room because we agreed.
If you did this, that's what happens. My dad practiced

(26:48):
that approach. My mom probably wanted to, but then if
she was frustrated, you know, she'd be, oh, I'm so
disappointed and kind of bring emotion into it. So the
intensity of how much my mom cared, I you know,
I think that was was great and I think kind
of that calm, predictable. Hey, the world works in a

(27:11):
clear way, and you know I'm on top of the world,
and here's what I need from you. You know that
very much came from my dad, So I tried to
be a little more around. You know, my wife, Melinda
deserves all the credit. You know that our kids have
come out as well because she really was around. But
I tried to be. That's the one thing I did

(27:33):
a bit differently than my dad was was more more
intense vacation time, a little bit more of a direct communication,
not through their mother.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
How did you reconcile that towards the end about your
father's style and how did you make space for that
and accept that.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
In that generation. You know, my dad's career was a
very big thing. In fact, having all sorts of adults
around for events, you know, it was connected to his career,
and you know he did very well. He was a
top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented the idea
that that my dad was very busy. You know, you

(28:12):
had kids early, you know, the man's career is important. Later.
My mom also not only is doing volunteer activities, but
as people wanted women on boards because she had the
right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities,
and she got a little busy herself. You know, I

(28:32):
don't think the amount of time is the only the
only key factor there.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, I'd have to agree. I was when I was
reading it too, I was thinking that. And this was
what I found so interesting though when I was reading
source Code, that even though you have lived such an
other worldly life in so many ways, there were so
many relatable moments from a parenting standpoint, And when I
was reading it, I was thinking about my father too,
who wasn't around a lot when I was younger. He

(29:00):
was working. Both my parents had to work. And to
the point you just made right now, like my father
wasn't there when I was playing rugby, or he wasn't
there when I was swimming for my you know, local club,
or he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering. And for me,
that really allowed me to become the man I wanted
to be, and it allowed me to have more freedom almost,

(29:23):
to not feel like there was this heavy expectation. And
I've always seen that as a positive thing because it
allowed me to have a broader definition of what it
meant to be a man, what it meant to be
a son, what it meant to go off and discover
something that I was passionate about. And so even seeing
you kind of having your mother be the one who
was almost you know, pushing the expectation and what the

(29:45):
family should be, but then having a bit of freedom,
it was interesting to see how that impacted you, to
be able to push back, to be able to you know,
even at one point, like you said in that letter,
like parent him almost in his decision and play that role.
It was refreshing for me to read a book about
you where I was, where I was actually seeing pots
of myself in certain relationships in a very relatable way.

(30:08):
Did you Did you ever anticipate that when you were
writing it.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
I was surprised, you know, so when I'm describing going
on those hikes, I was thinking, boy, would I have
let my son go off? And we really are holding
back children a bit more, you know, out of a
sense of okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But you know,

(30:33):
in that generation I was allowed to take trips and
hikes and and I think it benefited me. And so
writing the book, I was like, wow, And you've talked
with people like Jonathan hyde about this largely a bit overprotecting,
you know, kids so that they don't get to make
mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that

(30:56):
is best for them.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Do you think school's failing to If.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
You have thirty people in a class, it's pretty tough.
You're going to have some kids who are behind and
somewhere our head. You know, even the best teacher has
got a big challenge with that. Education I wouldn't say
is much better or worse today than a few decades ago.
We've always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in,
you know, will that helpful? And certainly if you want

(31:22):
to find information, it's been great. We're still working on
that now with the AI. Maybe a personal tutor will
be encouraging and work on your level. It's early days,
but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms,
people like Salcon with Konomigo that our foundation is helping
to support. But education, the computer has not made it

(31:46):
so oh wow. Kids learn a lot more today than
they did did a long time ago, and I still
believe we can change that. But it means if you're
in one of those large classes, you can feel lost,
and you know, we're missing, you know, great human potential.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
What are we getting wrong? Because it sounds like you
felt maybe the computer would give people that impetus and
the ability to download more and len more. Where have
we gone wrong?

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Well, the key is motivation. If you have a kid
who's super motivated, then yes, going to the con website
and doing hours of math problems, that's great. But in
a way that takes the kid who's in that top
twenty percent and makes him even more intimidating to the

(32:34):
other ones. And you know, people can come in and
if a kid in eighth grade says is math a
subject you have any confidence in? If the answer no
to that, they're five times more likely to drop out.
And so we do lose kids, and it's more out
of motivation. And so most of the stuff we've done

(32:56):
on the computer is about okay, if you are motivated,
will help you out, and not so much about how
you make it feel relevant to them and give them
a sense of success. And maybe this time around with
these AI personal tutors will will get that right. But
kids check out. No, I'm not one of those kids

(33:18):
who's good at math, even though for a lot of professions,
and you know, for college courses. We require algebra two
tests to be passed in order to go on and
you know, even be a nurse or a policeman. So
we have we have work to do. But more on
on the motivational side.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, I really I really appreciate you saying that, actually,
because I do think that we think about changing education
is so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive,
it is the motivation. And I was thinking about how
we put limits on ourselves when I finished sixth grade.
I remember before I went to high school, my favorite
subject was math in sixth grade and my least favorite

(33:59):
subject was off And then when I finished high school,
my most favorite subject was art and my least favorite
subject was math. And it was just fascinating to me
how that completely flipped over a seven year period. And
as I've grown up in my own life, I found
that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where
I naturally gravitate toward. But so much of that up

(34:21):
until sixth grade was the limits or the things that
were expected of me, as opposed to what I was
motivated and driven towards. And I was thinking about something
you said in the book. You said that if you
were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with
being on the autism spectrum, and I was wondering, how
would that have affected you? How do you think that
would have affected you?

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people, being
given a label is a pejorative to them, and you know,
almost feel shameful. Although we know, you know, being on
the spectrum gives you, you know, almost some superpowerful concentration
that if you find the right place, it can be helpful.

(35:01):
Other people they're glad when they get that, because then
they say, oh, that's why, you know, my social skills
were slowed to develop, and you know, here's some strategies
that people like me have used. I'm not alone in this,
you know, I fit in into this, and it's actually
a reasonably common thing. There isn't like some medicine ADHD,

(35:27):
you know, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with.
They do have the vocal and out or all a
variety of things they give kids for that, And I
still wonder about that. I haven't chosen as an adult
to get a diagnosis or use those medicines. I think
eventually you learn to, you know, adapt. I still kind

(35:48):
of rock a little bit that when I'm thinking hard
and without even knowing it, and it does bother people sometimes,
And that's definitely kind of a what they call self
stimulate behavior that you know, makes it pretty likely I
fit into that diagnosis.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
Do you think it would have changed your trajectory of success?
Have you thought about that?

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Or I worry that I might have thought of it
as pejorative. It's really how you communicate it. I mean,
if you say, hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize
at all, and you're you know, sort of destined to,
you know, never be good at those things. You know,

(36:32):
obviously to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go
out and you know, sell the the dream of computing.
I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, you know,
develop a lot of social behaviors, and it might have
discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way,
you know. I think of that doctor Kressey experience where

(36:55):
he didn't make me feel terrible, why enlightening me that
I was wasting my time as well as my parents' time.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yeah, did you did you continue therapy after that? Or ever? Go?

Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yes, most periods of my life I found it useful
to have a therapist where I'm talking to about, you know,
what's confusing or what's troubling. I think, you know, I'm
very lucky to have that. I think, particularly if you
have a life where some extreme things happen that you know,

(37:34):
luck is a huge part of that to you know,
keep your you know, keep you on the ground. A
good therapist can play an invaluable role there. So, yeah,
I benefited to this day from those kind of conversations.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah. Well, I was thinking about in the book. Obviously
you beautifully introduced us to Kent, and obviously the loss
of Kent seems to be a place in your memory
that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy, and you talk about
in the book how you're not quite sure what your
parents would have said and how it all felt. And
I was just wondering if there were any did you
have support at that time through therapy and other ways

(38:11):
to deal with that grief?

Speaker 2 (38:13):
No, And I've been looking recently at people like Canison
Cooper are talking about, Okay, how do you deal with grief?
And you know, a lot of what they come up
with is that if you can keep talking about the
person and you know what you got from them, You're
kind of honoring them. You know, Kent's parents obviously were

(38:35):
the most affected by this, because you know, they would
never have this incredible son and you know who would have,
no doubt gone off and done incredible things. And I
remember spending time with them for like a year afterwards,
and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy,

(38:55):
I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book,
I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father. I
run into him right as I'm starting work on the book,
and you know, we can talk about what a great
influence he had on me, and you know, so I did.
I did think that was helpful. But boy, it took
me a long time because death it was just such

(39:18):
a shocking thing. I have this idealic childhood other than
Ken's death, nothing at all traumatic. And we're talking all
the time, you know a little bit. I reach out
to Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen, who goes
on to found Microsoft with me, to step in and

(39:39):
you know, be that that super close friend. But back then,
the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly hey,
buck up, you know, get on with things, which after
a few months I did.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, And it was at that time you're talking about
how he actually invited you on the trip he went
to and like you're talking just before oh, he goes off,
and then all all of a sudden, you're like, wait
a minute, we used to talk every day or you know,
and that it can feel so disassociated from yourself in
that moment. It feels like, how did you revisit that?
When did you kind of tend towards working through the

(40:16):
grief as you wrote the book? Did it feel like
you were revisiting it?

Speaker 2 (40:19):
But it definitely you know at that high school when
I built a hall in his name and you know,
gone out there and talked a little bit about the
role that Kent played in my evolution. You know, so
some efforts to honor him, you know. Sadly, you know,

(40:42):
Paul al and also the other key friend in this
book died I think about six years ago from cancer,
and you know he he also was very key at
getting me on the right path. And there wouldn't be
you know, without those those two friends. You know, there
really wouldn't probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, you talk about how Paul was setting your little
challenges and would ask you to, you know, try this,
so do that, and then you'd go ahead. And I
was thinking, how amazing to have a friend that can
motivate and inspire you in that way. And then I
was thinking about what you just said when I was
reading the book, that it felt like you told so
many stories of so many people in your life that
are no longer here now, and so grief wasn't just

(41:25):
about Ken or Paul. It was, you know, just so
many individuals that you've had life with that you're having
to process that with what has been helpful for you
genuinely deeply inside that has led to some sort of
helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about
all these wonderful people that you've lost.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Well, most of my life has been about looking forward
and Okay, let's get this innovation and let's do it first,
and you know, whether it's software saving children's lives, which
is the big foundation thing. And it is a little
bit unnatural for me to look back because you have
to say, Okay, how do I describe my relationship with

(42:10):
my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her?
You know how do I talk about camp where I
don't know if he'd lived, what would have happened, but
you know, probably you know something that he would have
very much been a part of it. And so it's
awkward to look back because you you have to deal

(42:30):
with these things and talk about you know, you know,
should have vibes spent more time with his parents afterwards,
you know, because eventually I stopped doing that. But you know,
this year I turned seventy. I mentally don't feel like
I think of a seventy year old, but you know,
it means, you know, I'm in the final third, no

(42:52):
doubt of you know what, I've been very lucky to live,
and so you know, I really did force myself say no,
there's some lessons out of this, you know, telling people
how lucky I was, and maybe a few lessons for
them as as parents or how they navigate success. And

(43:13):
so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it
quite a bit. I have to say, when I'm reviewing
it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm you know,
reliving these things. So it always takes me about three
times longer to take some pages and edit. Then I
predict or if it was you know, something like about
climate or pandemics. You know, I'm I'm pretty fast. There's

(43:35):
no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing,
uh something scientific.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
What was your favorite part to relive and what was
the hardest part to relive?

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Well, everything about the fascination we had and you're like,
what do we see this thing? These computers are going
to be amazing, and but no one else saying that,
so we must be wrong. And you know that contradiction.
So you know Paul actually I helped him get a

(44:10):
job out in Boston so he could be out there
and bugging me that, okay, should we go build a company.
And then finally when this kit computer, which is so limited,
but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes out,
then you know Paul's argument we should go and do something.
He wins because we don't want to be left behind.

(44:34):
We want to want to be there from the very beginning.
And then we meet a few people, though it was
still a very small move, we meet other people like
Steve wosney k Steve Jobs, who also you know, have
been infected with this idea of okay, we're on to something.
That is going to be huge.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
That, Paul, I mean, the reasons that you did to
find in this book. I was every time I was reading,
I was just like, how do you have so much detail?
I was really blown away by the level of detail
both in the storytelling every moment. But then even there's
that note that you have that says Steve Jobs called
was rude, and I was just like, you know, even

(45:13):
just having that back then, I was laughing as I
read it, and I was wondering, like, I feel like,
as from the outside and naturally, and you talk about
this later on in the book, how we see people
as this like slither of who they are, and people
have a public profile and that becomes their brand. And
if you look at it from the outside, you see
Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind

(45:37):
of like arch rival, nemesis kind of portrayal. What was
it actually like, because in the book it comes across
much more inviting than that as opposed to this kind
of harsh rivalry.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Well, I had a fantastic relation with Steve. You know,
early on I got to do the basic which they
called applestop that went with every apple to computer so
I worked with both jobs at Mosniak to get that done.
Then later, as Steve has a kind of small group

(46:10):
inside Apple doing the Macintosh, he invited Microsoft to write
application software a spreadsheet word processor for it, and so
we actually had as many people as they did, and
we worked very closely on that project, and he and
I loved the fact that, you know, that ended up
being a key Apple product. Then he leaves Apple. I

(46:34):
talked to him about next but I never thought that
computer would do that well. So he was disappointed. But
then when he goes back and he's it's unbelievable, what
a great job he did. Because Apple went from being
on the way to dine to being the world's most
valuable company, and Steve had really matured and it was

(46:57):
something and I we helped write softa for that. Then
later when Steve uh is sick, we had about five
different conversations where we got to talk about kids and
you know, had computers done well and you know where
he was pretty thoughtful. It's amazing to me that Steve,

(47:18):
you know, his skill set and mind other than okay,
you know Madman leader, you know, drawing people in but
he his taste in design and user interface and even
his intuition about people. He was just genius in a
way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and
write code, whereas you know, my thing is, hey, I'm

(47:42):
an engineer. You know, here's the code, let's make it
faster and smaller. So actually that allowed us to get along,
because you know what he was super good at I
was not good at. I envied those just incredible talents
that he had. And then somebody's he's more singular. You know,
if you say to me, are there other people like
you who are great at writing code and conceptionizing? And think, yeah,

(48:03):
I can name a number of people, including many who
worked with me, But I don't know somebody who's who
I say, Oh, yeah, you know he he's just like
Steve Jobs.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Well, well that's very Humblivia as well. I mean, that's
beautiful to hear. What were some of those final conversations
like that you had with him that were potentially I
always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more
so in those moments.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Yeah, we did one public appearance, you know, where we
were being thoughtful about the friendship. What Mosburg had had
us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing
and surprised people because Steve was very harsh. You know,
he was a you know, he said we were the
general motors and he was like the Mercedes. But you know,

(48:51):
all in uh, it was all very fair. Well, we've
you know, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education,
and we're both you and I had given speeches saying,
of course this will make education, you know, five times better,
and we're like, wow, we got that one wrong. Maybe
you know, maybe next round we'll deliver on that promise.

(49:15):
And you know how unusual it was, even a little
bit lonely that, you know, when you were so successful
and then you're having doubts about, okay, are we making
mistakes here? You know, both of us had had kids
by then. He was actually you know, of course he
not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff. And

(49:36):
because that was a realm I'm not in, I you know,
could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did.
Now partly picking people, but that's you know, kind of amazing, uh,
you know, now part of Disney, and you know, in
both a sense of thankfulness, although you know, he was

(49:58):
very sick and just hoping some new rug would come along,
and tragically it didn't.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, was there a memorable piece of advice or conversation
where you said something to him or he said something
to you that has stayed with you?

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both
so competitive and pushing ahead? I think both of us.
You know, in his case, he's an orphan, so he
has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal.
I don't have anything like that, you know, even though Kent,
that's not why. You know, Well, before that, I was

(50:31):
somehow always, you know, pushing as hard as I could be,
and you know, I think both of us, you know,
being thankful for what we'd been able to work on.
I mean, you know, we got more of a front
row seat and help build this thing. Steve never got
around to doing philanthropy. Now his widow, Loreen is doing

(50:55):
great philanthropy, so you know that's I'm sure he'd he'd
be proud of that, but he didn't get to that stage,
and I was just getting into that stage. So I
shared with them a little bit about, Wow, a lot
of children tie and we don't do much to stop that,
and that kind of intrigued him, but then he never
got to pursue it.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
Yeah, you're reminded me of something I read in Barb
Eyger's book where he was talking about how there was
a time when Spielberg, George Lucas they'd all sit together
and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback.
And they all felt very confident in doing that because
they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse,
and so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well, Steve's

(51:37):
going to steal my idea, or you know, George Luke's
going to steal my idea, because they felt so confident.
And it sounds like even for yourself as competitors to
talk to have a relationship, does that still happen today?
Do competitives talk? Do they pick up the phone to
each other? Was that very rare? Because it feels like
it feels definitely now so less.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and
Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Maybe that drives everybody
else together. I don't know. And you know, over time,
I think Elon, as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow
out a little bit and you know, probably be an

(52:17):
incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done. But yes,
there is some good conversation. You know, Larry Ellison is
now in a phase where he's doing some excellent philanthropy
and we're all a bit more reflectfile. I mean, hopefully
by the time you get to seventy been hyper successfully,
you can you know, relax and let your guard down

(52:38):
a little bit and you know, laugh about the things
you got wrong.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Yeah, what were some of the advice that you've given
to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even
more recently.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft, the one big challenge we
had is we were so successful by the late nineties
that we got into and I trust difficulties and in retrospect,
we could have handled that better. And so I've been
very open with Mark. You know, I used to brag

(53:09):
that I didn't have an office in DC, and I
didn't you know, what a great country that I didn't
have to talk to politicians. Well that was a mistake,
you know. Now you know, you've got all of them
going to the inauguration, and you know, so they're not
they're not making that mistake. Maybe they have they corrected
too much in another direction? Well, you know his history,

(53:32):
will will judge se Yeah, I'm you know, it's weird
to be kind of an elder statesman. Uh.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
You know.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Sauty who runs Microsoft has done such a brilliant job.
And in one of my great fears when I left
Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would
feel if it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Balmer
did a great job and now satchaz with this AI generation.
So I that's another great blessing is that not only

(54:01):
the value the stock, but also the fact I can
just focus on okay, what about polio and malaria? You know,
knowing that they're taking the company to new heights. You
know what a great blessing that's been for me.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yeah, it seems like I love what you were just
saying now that you know, maybe there'll be a time
when Elon turns to philanthropy and you talked about others,
and it seems that that turning point for view is
so key, and I feel like you were one of
the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one
of the first to do it in a really big
way to be able to move away from this big

(54:37):
company that you founded, world changing, generation changing, and then
turning to that and that service element. To me, I
was intrigued as to why do you believe that that's
almost where every one of these people need to go, Like,
why is it that you believe that turning to a
life of service and giving back is core for Elon

(54:58):
or whoever else it may be.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
Well, it's pretty saying this is a world where somebody
can have over one hundred billion dollars. I mean that
you know what is that and it's not you know,
you don't want to just give that to children and
create some dynasty that's not even a favorite to them.
You want to give that back. So these are unprecedented fortunes.

(55:24):
And if you're a great innovator and you know how
to gather scientists together and think about problems, then there
are some government just risk averse, and particularly poor countries
don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or
solving malnutrition. It there is something that philanthropy can have

(55:47):
these outsized results in terms of life saved, almost like
you know a great startup does on the side of innovation.
So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity
to the poorest, both inside the US and outside the US.

(56:07):
You know, I feel that, you know, we've got the
golden rule. We're supposed to care about people. There are
times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside
the country's lower today then it's been, But I know
that'll come back around because of the moral logic there.
I think, I believe is very very strong, and you know,

(56:32):
I found it so fulfilling. And I created a group
called Giving Pledge of people who've committed to give the
majority of their wealth away and we learn from each other,
hopefully we inspire each other, and hopefully we change the
societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune,
most of it should combine with your talents and make

(56:55):
the world a bit more of a fair, fair place.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Yeah, I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really
fortunate when I went out and lived as part of
my time as a monk in India, we helped put
together a well the monks were doing already, but I
got to be a part of it. Helped build a
daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million
kids a day and it was all in exactly what

(57:23):
you're saying, like to help them malnutrition children, and now
they're even trying to figure out how much protein to
having it, like trying to figure out the actual composition
as well. And I remember seeing that so early in
my life, like I would have gone out there first
time in my teens and then later on when I
became a monk in my early twenties. But the reason
I raise it is because I think it goes back

(57:43):
to what the point you made earlier about motivation. And
one thing I've really been trying to figure out with
the right partner recently is how when I grew up,
I remember my dad used to read the rich list
and he'd have the rich list like the Sunday Times
or whatever it was, and kid, I would see my
dad and on the back of it would be the
rich list. And I was thinking, how incredible would it

(58:04):
be if kids grew up with a service list, and
how would that change motivation? Because I feel we we
repeat what we've reward and I feel like we've never
really seen that case study yet up until maybe you
know your case study and the people that are following
with the giving pledge that service becomes a natural part

(58:24):
of life at that scale. I think we see it
in smaller communities. You see people with very little actually
doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at
that level. And so I find that changing that drive
and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother
had for you, your impact of faith had in you.
I think that could be huge. I don't know what
you think about people seeing a service list instead of

(58:47):
a rich list or whatever the right word is.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute
than you know, the impact you've had philanthropically. And part
of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there.
You know, I've tried to think through. Okay, you know,
since we know how to save lives for one thousand

(59:12):
dollars per life saved, wow, we better use this money
as absolutely best we can. And I do think we're
going to see a rise in philanthropy. I mean, you know,
these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are in a

(59:33):
very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty,
I don't think society should feel that good about it.
And you know, I sat down with Bernie Sunderson, and
he said no, he would outlaw billionaires. I think that's
a mistake. I think allowing in America in particular wild innovation,

(59:55):
wild risk taking is good. But then on the back
side of that there there should be a strong expectation.
And I think role models help a lot. You know,
Warren Buffett in very different industry, very different skill set,
you know, he's always been a role model. Was the
one who, even when I was still building the fortune,

(01:00:18):
said Okay, your mom is right, you know, and here's
some books you should read, you know, Carnegie Gospel of Wealth,
the History of what Rockefeller did you know, because this
will be an important as important a measure of your
impact as making the money.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful
won to pass on what I think it was Trump.
You mentioned it recently that you'd asked to see him
to have a discussion. Did that meeting have a happened.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Yeah. I had a very long and actually very impressive
dinner in terms of he asked good questions. You know.
I talked about over ten million people are live because
of US generosity with HIV medicines. Going back to President
Bush in two thousand and three, and you know, I

(01:01:10):
encourage him to keep that as a priority and to
accelerate innovation. You know, there's an idea that you might
be able to curates that we're working on, and he
could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and
how his leadership and the US government resources are very
important there. And you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to

(01:01:32):
meet with him. The fact he gave me that long
period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions.
You know, somebody may come along later and tell him
to cut that money, but I make the argument as
best I can that you know, the moral purpose of
the US and how we're thought of, and the fact
that a curius is on its way that's worthwhile. You know.

(01:01:55):
So this administration is in charge and you know, trying
to help them. You know, they're willing to cancel old things,
some of which should maybe be canceled, some of which shouldn't,
you know, So they're you know, helping direct them, so
they'll use their open minded US to do different things
and try and make that come out well. I and

(01:02:16):
I think that's that's worth trying.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Yeah, what what do you see is the moral purpose
of the United States and the way you mentioned it
just now.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Well, we've been the shining light of not only being
a democracy ourselves and you know, having political opponents respect
each other and work well together, but also you know,
saying that even though we're in this very powerful position,
we won't abuse that position. And Okay, if we allowed ourselves,

(01:02:45):
you know, to let other people spend too lettle on
some things, you know, there's there's a balance there. But
if you become too much of a bully and you're
not keeping democracy, which you know, we're reducing the polarization
and bridging some of these divides, that's a little bit scary.

(01:03:07):
You know, democracy is a fragile concept, and particularly the
time when AI is coming along, and the government will
have to play a strong role in saying, okay, these
jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall, and therefore,
here's how we help those people. You know, how do
we keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a

(01:03:34):
thing that bad people use and it messes up these
job markets that I expect the twenty twenty eight presidential
debate AI policies will be the most important thing. And
I was a little bit surprised in this election that
wasn't discussed hardly at all.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
Yeah, that's such a good point. I didn't actually think
of the you're right, it didn't come up a tool. Yeah,
that's fascinating. Well, how I mean, how do you prepare
for something like that? It would need need to be
surrounded by the right people and having the pies.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Well, you've got to educate everyone. You know, you can't
count on the technologists to shape these things. You know,
social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be.
And you know the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things
that even if they're not at all factual, and AI
heightens all of that. And you know, there's an era

(01:04:29):
where getting the politicians to see the technology including all
this good stuff personal tutors, better medical care, even making
the government more efficient. You know, this is the most
promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork, AIS actually are
pretty darn good at at reading and processing those kinds

(01:04:54):
of things. So you know, we're on the precipice of
these AI breakthroughs. The reliability and capabilities. You know, it's
kind of an extension of what I worked on as
a child, you know, personal computers, then Internet, then cell
phones and now AI. But it's because it's super intelligence.

(01:05:19):
It's of a different character and will it'll put us
to the test on how we work together within the
US and how countries work together.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Yeah, it's interesting because as you're doing about social media there,
I think Mark Zuckerberg and Joe Rogan was saying that
they are taking away their fact check is and I
believe X is doing something similar. What was your take
on that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
You know, this whole thing of how you balance free
speech versus not you know, discouraging people from using vaccines
when that would be beneficial for them, or even extreme
stuff like holocaust denial or some bad things there. I'm
a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a

(01:06:05):
clear prescription to how we achieved both the goals free
speech and yet reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. I mean,
during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some
of which you know had me being some you know,
weird mis behaving actor, you know, which was a lot

(01:06:29):
of craziness. You know, clearly over a million people died
who should have benefited from the vaccine, and next time,
you know, whether it's an out of control ai or
the next pandemic, the impact of not getting facts out
could be much more dramatic. I mean, the next you

(01:06:51):
could have a pathogen that was ten times or twenty
times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once omicron comes along.
The fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and mostly elder people.
So politics meets ai H is where a lot of

(01:07:13):
our faiths will be determined, even in the next ten years.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
And how do you see a role in that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Well, hopefully there's some things I really do understand about that.
And whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my
foundation work on education and health, you know, using it.
You know, the place where you have the greatest shortage
of teachers and doctors is impoort countries in Africa. So
the fact that these things, you know, can give farmers

(01:07:41):
advice and give a pregnant women advice, and look at
what your kid is eating and say no, you need
more protein in this diet. And it's essentially free, you know,
the way that computing was free that I saw when
I was young. Now we're getting into this even more
radical thing of intelligen Jens will basically be free. You

(01:08:04):
know that that's kind of wild stuff. So I hope
both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons
of a past of where we've been able to shape
things so far, you know, so that I think personal
computing has largely been an empowering thing. You know. I
was reading this book Nexus, where Harai says, then when

(01:08:27):
the printing press comes along, it actually is books about
witches and how you find witches that are the best selling.
So just thinking because we have new capabilities that will
necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way.
That's sadly a naive concept.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
Yeah, I mean you've verised such a good point that
even this idea. I loved what you said that you
said you wish your generation could have figured out how
to have not have these extreme polarizing conversations but actually
find this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms,
whether that be through how we use technology. What is
it that Why do we keep doing that? It almost

(01:09:06):
feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across
this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas,
but then we always use it for almost the same
thing or something that feels you know, insignificant compared to
what it could do. Where are we going wrong? Why
can't we get that right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Well, it's kind of amazing how wealth humanity is done.
You know, the you know, the violent death rate over
hundreds of years have gone down a lot. You know,
more recently, we've gotten vaccines out to children and gotten
the annual death rate from ten million a year to
turn the century down to about five million. Vaccines being

(01:09:46):
the biggest, uh part of that, because we got them
out to most of the world's children. So humanity for
a being that grew up in these small hunter gatherer groups,
now you know, we have a big city, complex technology,
Our ability to get along, you know, in some ways
has been good. You know, nuclear weapons that when I

(01:10:07):
was young, you know, my greatest fear was, Okay, there
was going to be a nuclear war. And I do
worry the current generation is that to have that exposure
to it, so or you know, the Arms Treatise and
you know, spending too much money on building those weapons.
I do worry that we've lost track on that one.
But at least you know, we haven't used those and

(01:10:31):
you know, We've done pretty well so far, and you know,
will we this time? I think this is is probably
the hardest innovation because you know, we do have human limitations.
They even I when I see an outrageous article against
somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click

(01:10:51):
on it and have it tell me, Yeah, he's even
stupider than you thought, or you know, he this is
a mistake. You know, we're all subject to that, and
we do like to form into groups. But you know,
all of humanity ideally is a group where philanthropically and

(01:11:13):
you know, government generosity, we can think of ourselves as
being part of that, as opposed to much you know,
our clan or race or nation.

Speaker 1 (01:11:23):
Yeah. I think on a global level it requires what
you were saying, and on a personal level, it requires
us to almost be able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know,
have self awareness, allow for self reflection, space for you know,
the things we don't have time for anymore. Right, you know,

(01:11:43):
I was looking into something called the third space theory
and how in the past you had your home, you
had work, and then you had church or temple or
community center, and how those three spaces, that third space
was a place you could look back on home and
work and say I could treat my work a little
bit better, or I could have spoken to my colleague
a bit better. And that third space allowed that time

(01:12:07):
and energy where it was all about reflecting on how
you could improve. But today we've lost three spaces into
two into one where we work from home, live at home,
and the screen is our third space. And so that
lack of having a physical body or building that gives
you permission to step back from your whole life, not

(01:12:28):
play a role there and actually purvey what's going on
in your life. We've lost that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
Yeah, that's a shame. Yeah, you know, the decline of
religion is a very strong trend. You'd hope there'd be
a modern religion that takes whatever's put people off and
yet preserves kind of this golden rule and this okay,
at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other.

(01:12:55):
If you expect government to figure out how to solve things,
you know, it's too bureaucratic. The local church based groups,
oh this person needs help, I have extra time, you know,
is way more effective. And so we expect too much
from government in a way. So I hope we can

(01:13:16):
re energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious
modernization or maybe just a community thing is maybe spiritual
but not labeled as religion. That local engagement where you
see other people that I think we need more.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Of it, absolutely, absolutely, Bill. I've got to you for
a couple more moments, and there's a few things I
wanted to ask you. One was you talked about how
in the book, how being the smallest person in the
room and that status was something that you may be
hid behind and your insecurity as were hidden behind. And
I was wondering, is that something that you've been able

(01:13:58):
to put down that god and take that away as
time has moved on. How were you able to do that?

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit, you know, to learn
how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways,
you know Microsoft, I had to get marketing salespeople at
the foundation, you know, people who go out in the
field and do heroic work, and so my you know
sort of single view of Okay, math cape capacity is

(01:14:26):
you know, this this great thing. I've mellowed and been
able to bring in different skill sets. But no, I
I started off being pretty bad at that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
What were those insecurities that you were hiding.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
Well, you tend to man each other people the way
you manage yourself. And so when I make a mistake
in programming her math, I'm very tough on myself, and
you know, I'm like, you need to spend more time,
you need to work harder, and it's kind of a
tough love, don't fool yourself thing. And so my early
man management style worked for people like me, but not

(01:15:04):
as well for other people. And so year by year,
you know, I did growth Microsoft. A lot of entrepreneurs,
you know, don't stays as CEO and you have to
bring in someone else. I wanted to do that, and
so by bringing in some other people, I got better
at that. I would say moving over to the Foundation

(01:15:25):
was another level of how you bring in different mix
of talent. And so yeah, I'm trying. I'm still trying.
I'll be better a year from now.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
Well, I was most excited that you said there's still
two more books coming after this one to talk about
the different areas of your life. And I really enjoyed
this one so much. I'm so excited for people to
read it, to get to know you better, to get
to know the people that have changed your life for
the better and allow you to do all the incredible
phenomenal work you do today. And I honestly am so
inspired by the work you do today. And I really

(01:16:01):
hope that I can be involved in some small ways.
So I thank you deeply.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
Well, thank you, It's been fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
It means the world. Bill. We end every episode with
a final five. These questions have to be asked in
onst in one word to one sentence maximum. So Bill
gates these of your final five. The first question is
what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
You know, finding what you really enjoyed doing and hopefully
there's some job that has that as opposed to know
what jobs pay well or other people push you to.
If you're doing something you really enjoy it, it's hard
to beat.

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
And you found that early.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
I was super lucky on that. You know, computers were
there right when I needed them.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard
or received.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
People will tell you not to take risks, and it's
very well intentioned, but there are contexts. You know, when
you're young, you know, like people say, okay, it must
have been scared to drop out, Not really. I mean
I could have gone back. You know, there's no flesh
wounds involved in failure, you know, so failure's you know,

(01:17:15):
probably a better teacher and more of an okay thing.
And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know,
emotional safety in many cases that we've gone too far.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
Yeah, but did dropping out that at that time feel
like a big risk.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
No, it did not. Even the first time I felt
it was when I was hiring people who moved their
family and they had kids, and I was like, if
I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude.
You know, he's got a real problem, and I'm kind
of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out.
So that scared me.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Yeah, was that There's a scene in the Social Network
where you're on stage and Mark Zuckerberg's in your in
the auditorium, and then they leave and they say the
speaker just said the next Bill Gates could be sitting
in this room, and then Mark goes, that is Bill Gates?
Is that true?

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
That is absolutely true? Mark and I have laughed about
that a lot, that our experience at Harvard dropping out
of Harvard, you know, telling people that Hey, we saw
something other people didn't see, very very similar.

Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
Question number three, what would you say is the most
important problem desmised people on the planet should be solving
right now?

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
There's many candidates, you know, making sure we don't use
nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest,
which we're kind of losing that, But I would say
shaping AI has for me risen to the top of
that list. We need to do all those. We can't
just skip, you know, any of those. But this one

(01:18:54):
is is going to be a very big deal in
the in the next decade.

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
And what would be your advice to the biggest business
leaders in the world in regard to that?

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
Well, I don't think you can count on them. Their
competitive framework is to go full speed, and so only
government's in a position to say, wait a minute, slowed down,
you know, for the good stuff. You want them to
lower the price and get it done sooner, and so
we can't. Although yes, they should be part of the
dialogue and they're humans and citizens too, but you can't

(01:19:28):
count on them because the metric for them is to
go full speed.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Question number four, what is your favorite mental health habit?

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
You know It's a very big deal for me to
get time reading and thinking by myself, whether it's on
a walk or going driving. When I would see you
at Microsoft, I took two full weeks think weeks one
every six months, where I would just go off by
myself and think, okay, is Microsoft on track? What are

(01:20:01):
the trends? Towards the end, I'd write a memo which
actually was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists
and turns like when the internet comes along, or you know,
software is not reliable enough. You know, I need that
time to think. Even though I love quick thinking, you know,

(01:20:21):
being in a meeting and spotting a mistake. Most of
my good work has come from the kind of slow
thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up
with some non obvious ideas. You know, maybe it's a
little bit my you know, being on the spectrum. I
need that refreshment, you know. And I see my schedule

(01:20:43):
with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll
try and make sure the next week has a little
bit less of that. But you know, to maintain creativity,
you have to have some calmness and be not behind.
If you feel like you're behind like you turn on
your email like, ah, oh, I'm late. You know that

(01:21:06):
that your creativity gets gets squeezed out one of the
first things.

Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
And does that think we need to be in nature?
Are you away from everything? Is it? Are you simply thinking?
Are you taking books? Are you janeling?

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
Or is it I'm taking books to read, but I'm
also taking very long walks on your own and just
thinking about things. And I love I take a tablet
of paper and write things down quite a bit. And
you know, I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking phone calls.
I'm not browsing the news. You know, the news can wait,

(01:21:42):
you know, And I'm off by myself twenty twenty four
hours that whole time. Somebody can stick some food in.
But and you know that's kind of extreme. You know,
there's people like Kerrari who meditate kind of an unbelievable one.
I almost envy him. I don't think I would go

(01:22:02):
that far. But we should be more in his direction
than we are.

Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
Yeah. Absolutely. And what's the book you've gifted most? Actually,
I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader. You recommend
so many great books. What's the book you've gifted to people?
Close to you the most.

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):
There's a Stephen Pinker book called Better Angels of Our
Nature that talks about even though in the short run
we see how tough things are. If we zoom out
a little bit and say, okay, two hundred years ago,
to be a woman, to be gay, you know, thirty
percent of child children die. You know, lifespan is less

(01:22:42):
than fifty years. You know that's not saying there's a
guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen.
But people are a little overwrought and saying, okay, you
know this approach to government is failing. Maybe we should
try something radical like not you know, being fully democratic.

(01:23:03):
I'm like, whoa wait a minute here, Yes, we need
to feel bad about the things we're not doing, but
we also need to have a perspective the system of
scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our circle of care,
you know, beyond our family, clan nation, as we discover

(01:23:28):
new things and we can share more resources. That really
is working. You know, it sounds naive to say that,
but you know, the books that really go through that,
I find, you know, a guide how I think about
the world.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
Absolutely. Fifth and final question, if you could create one
law that everyone in the world had to follow. What
would it be.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
Well, if you look at all these religious texts, you know,
I'd say the the thing they all eventually come back
to is the Golden rule, which is to treat people
how you would like to be treated. You know, I mean,
say that you're about to be born, and you don't
know if you're going to be born a woman or
in Africa. This is a thing that Warren Buffett taught me.

(01:24:16):
You know what, you get to construct the world and
how fair it is, and then you we will randomly
pick and you will be born in some place in
some way. And you know, I think the construct that
would guide the world you'd want for that is very

(01:24:36):
much going back to that Golden rule. Not okay, let's
win wars, you know, let's outcompete, or you know, have
more money or resources than other people. And so it's
kind of a it's one of the few universal truths
that we should have that guide our behavior.

Speaker 1 (01:24:55):
I love that, Bill, Thank you so much for your
time went on purpose today and genuinely say grateful for
your time and energy. It was thrilling to talk to you.
And I love getting an early copy of the book
and being ahead of the world on it. So thank
you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
Well, you know I've loved our conversation, so look forward
to more.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to
love my conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up
on how to stay with your partner when they're changing,
and the four check ins you should be doing in
your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with
relationships when they're under stressed. If you're going through something

(01:25:31):
right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this
is the episode for you.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new
technology and we've just taken it in hookline and Sinker,
and we have to be mindful.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
For our kids.

Speaker 3 (01:25:46):
They'll just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their
mind's never sleeping.

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