Daniel Kaluuya: How to Respond When No One Believes in You & Why Other People's Perception of You is Not Your Reality

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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Speaker 2 (01:27):
I find it when you go on those journeys. There's
something about the badness in it that you have to
face in yourself, and it's whether you take the lesson.
And if you don't take that lesson, you will meet again.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Ask a winning actor, writer, director, producer.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Please welcome anything I'm doing now, I've told been told
I can't do I told I can't act. Got t
talk to some people in there and they're like, you
ain't gonna make it so well, AFK I can.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
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(02:13):
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y only she Hey, everyone, Welcome back to On Purpose.
Thank you so much for coming back to listen to
another episode. Today's guest is an actor, a writer, producer.
You'll know him from so many of his blockbuster successes.

(02:36):
I can't wait for you to listen to this interview
with Daniel Kalujah. I always like starting with this question
because I think I'm intrigued to see where you take it,
Like what would you say is your earliest childhood memory
that defines who you are today?

Speaker 2 (02:50):
There's one here, There was one. I grew up quite
a fat kid. Yeah, and then needs to go scouts,
cubs and scouts. You go into like I don't know,
some random places in the countryside down to a camping
something and then like this potholes you know about potholes.
Go in there. So I run through the pothole. Yeah,
and then like I'm doing this pothole. I'm going in
and like Emo starts laughing because I'm fat. They was like,

(03:11):
oh Dan, it's not gonna fit. That's not gonna fit.
And I got in there and then halfway through it
gets narrow and narrow, and I proper did it, and
they looked in a bunch of kids were like I
must have been nine eight. They were like, He's filled
the whole thing. They just laughing, laughing, laughing, laugh and laughing.
And then I was like, all right, cool, I can't
really go back, so it's only really and I'm actually

(03:34):
half filled it. So then I was like all right, cool,
and I just found a way to. I was just
like I knew how to like change my body and go,
I'm gonna get out. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna
do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it.
And then I realized they were laughing. And then as
I was getting closer, closer to the exit, they just
stopped laughing. They stopped laughing, they stopped laughing, and then

(03:55):
by the end they clapped, and I think after it,
I was like, right that, yeah, I don't know, I
look back and go, I think it really changed how
I saw everything my life. Bro, what what is? What?
What are you to me? Like what I'm saying, It's
like I kind of felt had the energy was like
just push through, just do what you're supposed to do.
Just do what you're supposed to do. And you get

(04:16):
to the end and people that will say things that
will tell you say you're weird, say you're odd. By
the end of it, not that they'll clap, you can
make them. I don't know. It doesn't matter about them.
It just matters about you getting there, you know what
I'm saying. And I think a few years ago before
that I really cared about the clap. I really care,
like I'm gonna make you clap, I'm pissed, I'm gonna

(04:38):
make you clap. I think in that moment, I saw
my character, I saw what I'm actually about in that moment,
and yeah, and then it just respected me and the
end it was what I gained respect.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
So yeah, and you think that that still applies today
in always?

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, Man, do you tell me people say you can't
do something? Everything's it up?

Speaker 1 (05:01):
What have you been told that you couldn't do?

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Name it? Like anything I'm doing now, I've thought I've
been told I can't do. I've told I can't act.
I wouldn't be able to make a career out of connections.
It is on Parkway, like in Camden, there's no connections. Yeah,
they were like saying, my mom was just stressed, like
did you want to act? Talk to some people then,
and they were like, you ain't gonna make it. I
think I can. I once been fifteen, you know, no,

(05:26):
no no. So it's all that kind of stuff, like
you're consistently kind of told that like it won't happen,
and I just didn't believe that. So that's why I
really would keep it secret what I was doing on
my dreams and my hopes or hopes like what I
see like if I can see it, that means I
can do it. So it's more that like every everything,

(05:47):
everything like you're told you can't do, even like being
away from race, even the class that I've come from,
like they're saying, oh, you can't do that. I'm what
you're talking about. It's nuts, Like I just I've always
just been like yeah. But then that was very much
the mentality of my school, Like it was basically right, cool,
you ain't got money, all right, called let's sell chocolate bars,
I called let's sell crisps. It's just like you've got

(06:08):
to make it work no matter what. So I've always come.
I feel like I've come from that cloth.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, did you find that keeping it secret was useful?

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah? Because it meant that I was able to fail
in private and just grow at my own pace and
have it and understand basically what it was. I realized
in hindsight and active and right and all this kind
of stuff. I realized I found what it meant to me.
I found what my definition of it is. I found
my style. I found what I liked that was so

(06:40):
it was mine. It wasn't like, oh I got it
from here or got it from there, because now this
is what I think. This is how I've got to this.
So that's like why I'm happy I did it because
I felt like, in hindsight, I felt I was a
bit too ahead of people that I was around in
terms of what I was focused on. Because it's quite

(07:00):
odd if I think about I think back, I was like, yeah, no, come,
I'm gonna do this. Like is that your meaning that
no one in my family's doing it? No one, no
one's doing it. But I just think I can stand.
So it's like, so I think it's it's that, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Where did that believe come from? At that age? At fifteen?

Speaker 2 (07:18):
To go?

Speaker 1 (07:19):
I can't even though no one's saying it like where
where did that inspiration come from? Was it? Was it
from what you were watching?

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Fresh Prince was watching like Wayne's Brothers. I was watching
like I don't know Sponge, No, Sponge was a bit
past my maybe same since and Eddie like I was watching, Yeah,
I was watching Life. Like I said that, I wasn't
really like, I don't know. I just believe. I don't know.
I just kind of was like, no, I don't believe you. Yeah,

(07:48):
I don't know you. Like at back in the day,
I was like like, say, remember John Major. Yeah, I'm
going to start that. They said he told you to
do something. I'm like, but I don't know him. How
can someone I don't know what to do? Kind of
nuts if I know somebody like Jermaine, It's like So
that's why I was like, I just always no. I

(08:09):
realized I think I just I'm blessed. I have faith,
and I think I just have faith. And I realized
I read something the other day and I think the
difference between faith and delusion is God. And I'm not
saying like, oh God, it's just like I just have faith,
Like I just had faith. I just just believe and
I think maybe I saw my family doing amazing things,

(08:29):
like not amazing things in a sense that like making
something work or going for a holiday, or they just
didn't accept they were done, like says I wanted to
act a right, well you can't afford that, but we
can do this. They just pushed on. They didn't They
didn't let the environment or the boundaries define what they
thought was possible in their mind.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
So I think it was that yeah, I love that.
I love hearing that your parents were saying yes and yeah.
It wasn't like no, but it was yes.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
And someone was just like, yo, what like how are
we going to like how are we going to do this?
She would challenge me, always challenge me. And then I said, oh, yeah,
this is this is this. But I realized she was
just like going trying to test me if I really
believed in it. And then again I probably needed that.
I did need that because I needed to know it
for my I was aware of it. So then I

(09:19):
was like, cool, this is what's going to happen. And
then she looked like, Okay, I believe you. Let's go
like this is the way I know, this is the
way I know I can make it work. So I
think it was just like I just I just believed.
I don't know where it comes from. I think it's
just a gift in it. I just I just try
and honor it and try and do good with it.
I don't try and like I intellectualize it.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, yeah, I get that, man, I get that. That
makes sense. And obviously, like I heard, I was watching
your hot Ones, which I love, and on there you
talked about her like you wrote your first piece when
you were nine years old, and I was thinking, it's
amazing now because with the work that you're doing now
with the kitchen and like production and writing, like you're
kind of almost doing this full circle. Is why was

(10:01):
writing where you started? Because I don't think a lot
of people know that, Like I didn't know that as well.
Like I've discovered you as an actor and loved your work,
but like, what was it about writing that drew drew
you to it nine years old? And tell us about
that piece too?

Speaker 2 (10:14):
I know, I know, I know. I thought I was
at school one time. It's before this play competition, which
is what I want at night. I was at school
one time and the teacher told me to write something
and then in my heart and I can't do this.
I know I could do this sick, and I wrote
something I thought it was amazing. Yeah, the teacher gave
me a rubbish grade and you're wrong. I think you're wrong,

(10:37):
Like I really like this. And then like that that
competition was just basically like there was a playwriting course.
They come to your school in Camden. Roy Williams, who's
a really big play right now, was a teacher then
and then like a teacher shamed me and was like, oh,
like like Daniel, you're messing about. I was. I was mischievous,
like you're messing about. I'm out like this. And then

(11:00):
I was like right cool and I was like I'll
show you. I'll show you. Then I wrote his play
is based on Keenan and kel about these guys that
work in the shop and he just had a friendship.
And then like I got to the next round, it
was a couple of us in the next round, and
then I was just right. And then those guys Jonathan
Sidel and Roy were like I knew at that time

(11:20):
they knew and they I feel like they knew I
had something because I just felt the energy and them
I was like, yeah, I just just what I think
because I I don't know, and then like then I
want it. And then my whole school year came to
hampster Fire. I'll watch it to my arsenal toop. I
got a picture that was flexing and then like and
then yeah, I mean they told me like keep going,
keep going. I'm like, I'm going to play out. I'm

(11:42):
not gonna write. And then I did a play for
Roy Williams Sucker Punch of I twenty one, and remember
he told me after it, Yeah, he was like, yeah,
do you know that the teachers didn't want to pick you.
They were like, darn, he's too bad. He's too bad.
And then Roy was like I'm definitely going to pick him.
So it was just that was the kind of like
I had up antagonistic energy in class, but I just

(12:03):
I don't know. I just I knew how to I
knew dialogue, I knew how people spoke, but I fork
a lot of it's to do because I was like
in my family, I didn't speak my language. So then
I was like sit at family events and then I'm
like watching you, I mean I can see that enhandsight,
like I would observe and I would like peace, and

(12:24):
I know how to pick tone and energy and I
feel it because I have to do you know what
I'm saying. So I think that's where it came from.
And then I stopped and I picked it back up
at sixteen to get back in the game. But during
that time I got into acting and I got to
act to improv, which is actually writing on your feet.
So then I was honing that skill set. So when

(12:46):
I got back to playwriting again, it was easy.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Tell us about some of the improv is. I feel
like that's such a fascinating skill. I love how you
said writing on your feet. That's a that's a cool
way of thinking about it. And I feel like improv
almost demand so much from an artist in a way
that other work doesn't. How would you Is there is
there like a funny moment of improv that you did
with a group or something, a story that you went
through that you're like, I remember that, And that was

(13:11):
a moment where I was like, Oh, I can write
on my feet. I can actually do this.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I think I think I think he was messing about
in class and then evening it taught me and Marcus
they were just like you guys are messing about he's
in the community classes and share he's in the communic class.
Then if you're good enough to get to the YPS
Young Professionals And then like he was just like, oh,
like you guys don't get it. And then they went
on stage and they just acted and I watched it

(13:34):
and I was like, copy, O, get I understand what
you're doing. I understand. And then after that point I
got it because I needed to see it go all right, cool,
I'll get you, get you get you. What I love
about it is that you just let it go. You're
not holding on. I have moments that my friends remind
me if I see them. Yeah, remember and you brought
out that I am I mean as a prop, but

(13:58):
I just had this rule is like once it in
your head, yeah, so you just got And also is
like it's like what you said like improvis yes, and
so you can't reject do you know what I'm saying.
So it's just like if someone says something crazy, you've
got to go with it, I mean and go yeah.
And then also if someone doesn't know how to do it,
I learned how to drive it to says if you
didn't know how to do it. I was like, why you're
not doing that?

Speaker 1 (14:19):
And I have to respond because I'm agreeing with you
about what. I'm agreeing with you based on what you
said about what.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Exactly that I say that, and then yeah and then yeah,
and then you film and then like you clock how
to like.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
And that's real dialogue too, rightly, because you're listening, you're
interrupting and listening.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
But then by doing that, you're playing a character doesn't
listen or listens too closely that they don't they're hearing
and not listening. They're trying to find And then so
you're building that character through those interactions, and then you're
honing it through the interactions and then you land cool
bang exactly. So that's how I kind of learned how

(14:59):
to do it. More, it's more that, yeah, don't it's
hard to like scribe.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, I don't know why I'm going down this road,
but you mentioned it and I'm listening. So I was like,
you said, you're an Arsenal fan. I'm a United fan.
You've been an Arsenal fan forever. What's your what's been
your favorite team at Arsenal over the years.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
I'd have to say, like, my favorite was Adam's right
yea over Mars Winter, but that was crazy eight like
come on man particular, that was like that was like
but that's when I fell in love, saying I was
like these oh my guys, Like everyone was just everyone

(15:43):
was just firing. So I just I just I don't know.
And also it's my local team minutes. So then it
was just like says, if we want to cut, the
area was happy. Yeah, I mean, it's not like that's
what it came from. It's like so it was a
time we didn't win a cut for nine years, and
then we did f a Cup and I watched that
Holloway and all that kind of stuff, and the next
day it was like it was Arsenal fans outside the windows,

(16:03):
people like you know in they're dusty vans the right
and stuff in the dusty vans. It was just everyone
was happy, even if you weren't asking for you were
just the area was happy. So it was that was
that it was a close connection. And then I don't know,
it was cool the fact that I could go to
games like obviously the cardon Cut games because all the
other games were hard to get. I went to marke
Key on testimony actually, but like it was like it

(16:23):
was like I don't know, you just felt like a community.
Like when the when they scored high Bred, the upper
the upper table just rock. You think it would break,
it's a bit of danger. It was just it was
just like and then my mom's friend used to give
me tickets when she went away. So then I watched
like wicked games or rubbish games. But I was part

(16:44):
of it from like young. I mean you could get
a ticket even if you couldn't afford it, So I
just fell in love with it during that age.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, and you had a lot of happy days, but
I think you had a lot of unhappy days as well.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Stress. I don't want to put people out there there
it's a public forum. But it was stressed. It was stressed.
But like I can I'm very, I'm very I see
like I'm a very child Ofvenger, Like I can see,
I'm very stubborn, like very like a lot of how
Arsenal is in me. I feel like it's not it's
bigger than just football. Like they have a philosophy. I

(17:15):
mean they have a style. That era had a style.
They had a style, and I just respected it. What
I'm saying I just and I think it's going to
a school in Island and the islet and team is
the one, and then you're like literally looking at the
sun in the paper the next day in school and
then it's the Invincibles and they're talking about your local team.

(17:35):
I think it makes you think that, yeah, we're the guys.
That's such a formative age. I mean, so I think
it's a bit of that.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Well, that's where I struggled because so I always say
this that every Indian person that moved to England in
like the seventies and eighties, I my dad, they only
support Manchester United or Liverpool because those are the big
clubs at the time. Those are the clubs winning and everything,
and so I support you because of that. I never
lived in Manchester and so I never had a happy
day in the town because I still almost have to

(18:05):
like shy away from saying I was a United fan
because I lived right in between Highbury and Spurs. So
that's why I grew up in Green like right in between,
and so I never got to go out and celebrate
in the town because I didn't live in Manchester and
so I always like grew up in fear of like
I can't tell anyone what I follow and like what
I do.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
And why isn't there a lot of Indian players in
football always?

Speaker 1 (18:26):
That's a that's a great question, you know, And I
think it's because a lot of parents, don't. You know,
if if an Indian kid told their parents they wanted
to be a football player, I mean I just got
to look at these two and go, what do you think?
What do you think the parents would have said? What
do you think the parents would have said? Yeah, definitely not,
no matter how good they were. I was telling Russe
to be one of our mates. I'm calling him out here.

(18:47):
His kids like supposedly quite decent at football, like, and
I told him yesterday, I was like, manye, you gotta
let this kid chase football, like chase the dream. And
I don't know if as a culture, I think our
parents work so hard and they wanted to have safety
and so they didn't want the kids to do anything
that felt unsafe. So acting would also be a no go.
You don't see that many South Asian people in acting.

(19:08):
I mean it's growing now for sure, especially the London scene,
but acting media anything that was uncertain or unsafe Indian
parents generally were like, no, they didn't want us to
be a part of it because they just wanted us
to not have the struggle they did, and so they
wanted us to feel safety security. And so if you
can get a good job, right, that makes sense. If
you could get a good job that paid the bills,
took care of you, they were happy, wanted to be safe.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
As intelle. I'm interested in how cultural values dictate where
the paths are because the demographics they should be lovet
the like if you look at it as demographically what
I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah, everyone plays at school and then it gets called off.
Like I remember with my parents too. It's like they
want you to play, they want you to be sporty,
but they don't want you to take it that seriously.
I had friends at my school that are amazing at cricket,
like incredible cricket players that were playing for England under
twenty ones, England under eighteens and then went off to
be accountants because their parents wouldn't let them, you know,

(20:03):
follow the dream. And so it's really interesting seeing who
pushes back through that as well, Like some people just
go no, I'm going to try anyway, and some people
fold and let it go. But I'm hoping. I'm hoping
it changes. I'm hoping it changes great too. Yeah, what
were some cultural things that you think held you back?
I mean, you've you've talked a bit about the racism
you experienced. You know, for me, when I when I
was hearing about that, I thought, that doesn't sound easy

(20:26):
when you add it to the other bullying and shaming
you were talking about earlier. Like, what was it like
navigating that? Well you talked about From what I've heard,
what you've talked about is like it took your long
time to realize that you felt darker than the people
that you were around, and so there was this whole
and you felt that they made you feel bad for that.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
When I got into secondary and that was more predominantly
black school, it's when I realized that I was darker
than the average black person that I grew up around
or I wasn't around, and then they would tell me
it was a kind of culture shock. But then I
was darker than a lot of people in my family,
So then it was even that made me feel a
bit different, and so then I was just like, oh, yeah,

(21:09):
I don't really know what's going on? And then but
then obviously like at that age, you got through racism,
but you're in a predominantly black space, You're not. You
go through colorism and then like you go out of it,
and then I mean like got good grades and start
going to a different school, like more middle class, uberlass school.
Then you deal with you see racism, but you see

(21:32):
people do things. You're like, what's that? That's weird? That?
What's weird? You haven't really felt like you're you've got
the right to go, oh, that's that what I'm saying,
You ain't got no one to talk to that understands
what's happening. Then it just started getting a bit more.
The more the more like kind of more into the workforce,
the more that you would face it, and the more
sleep people are to it and you go call it out.

(21:55):
What I used to say is that like because one
time I was not getting rolls because of acting and
that because and then I was like, oh yeah, I
was making all these excuses. And then my agent at
the time, it was Irish, and he was like, yeah, well, Daniels,
because you're black. I said, what you means, it's because
you're black? He said, it doesn't have it to anyone else.
You should it doesn't matter you black. And I was

(22:15):
like allowed to kind of like accept it, and then
I would tell people it was racism and they kind
of wouldn't believe me. Then when I said, oh, my
Irish agents said it, they're like, oh, is it? So
I realized. And when you're black, you feel you don't
have the disease, but you feel the symptoms, but you're

(22:38):
not allowed to diagnose it. It has to be someone
outside of yourself that says that's what's happening, and that
means it's more valid. Do you know what I'm saying?
Usually the people that has come from because you're seen
as too biased because you have the symptoms. So that's
what I realized about it. Like you just gound for it.
You're like, oh, roll, that's kind of nuts. I can't

(22:58):
really even say it. And that's what a sub conscious guy. Yeah,
if I say it, he's got a chip on shore.
That's what is. You got a chip on your shoulder,
you know, chips on my shoulder? Bro, Like, I mean,
it's nuts, Like it's not what you're saying. It's like
it's common. And people are like and so I think
that's where it is. You're like just navigating all of
those things. Like, so it took me a long It

(23:21):
took me a long time to figure it out. Figure out.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, I feel like that's something that you don't ever
figure out because it's like I love how you describe that.
Never heard it described like that, but the idea of
how because you have the symptoms, you can't be the
one to diagnose it, but you can't be the one
to express it, which feels so difficult because it's almost
like this is my reality, but you need someone else
to validate your reality. And that is a that is

(23:47):
a really interesting prison to live in.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Cool like what do you what do you love in life?
What do I love away from? Like the family? You
love football? Imagine my comment with J why do people
don't like football?

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Ye be like yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
So when people go why people don't like black people?

Speaker 1 (24:05):
I know, yeah you don't know.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, So then that's what I'm saying. It's like there's
something it's gas lighting, yeah, because it's like I don't
how am I supposed to? But then when I initiate
it and say this is happening, I'm not believed. But
then I'm supposed to report about it when it's happening
to me from there to justify what they're doing. It's
a whole like it doesn't really make sense what's happening.

(24:29):
If I go, this is happening, No, that's not true,
and then they'll have a whole lawyer or someone like
a professor dossier. And then now if he says it
because he wrote eighty pages of waffle, they believe him.
But I told you, you're just saying that his worth,
his word is worth more than man, and in that
it's racism. I'll say this, it's not worth It's just

(24:53):
not worth anything to you. And I had to really
learn that my word is worth something to me to
me and so then like I just I just moved
like that. So I just don't really like kind of
engage with the narratives because it's just people just making
up things that protect what they like about it. Because
you only things are kept because they like something about it,
because they didn't know get rid of it. They will

(25:15):
change the culture. You've seen how they change other things. Yeah,
you change the culture. There's something that protects I feel.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, I find when I'm talking to you. I find
that you've kind of really worked on like making peace
with how you feel about yourself and how you feel
about your views and how you feel about your art.
Like there seems to be this autonomy and independence in
saying as you were saying earlier, even when you were
given a bad grade, you were like, Nana, but I

(25:43):
know this is good. And even what you were saying
before where you were like it gave you space to
fail in private because you were like, no, no, I
know that I'm working on myself. So it feels like
you've really worked on having this internal piece. How hard
is that? As your career kind of does the opposite, right,
So it's like you're getting more and more focused on
giving yourself piece, which is an amazing skill. Like I'm

(26:06):
loving to see it on display and I know everyone's
going to appreciate seeing it. And at the same time,
it's like you're you're doing bigger and bigger things, so
you're more and more exposed to other people's opinions. How
have you managed to or how are you managing to
continue to kind of hold on to that core of
that nine year old and that fifteen year old.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
I mean, like I think I always just have it
like it's just mine. Yeah, so it's not something, but
I think it's like what happens is is how I
I've done things that causes a ruckers or chaos in
my sphere, and so like you just got to accept
that you're bit chaotic. I mean it's I mean, it's
like there's something that doesn't mean that's you, but there's

(26:46):
something there that you have to look at. If it's
nuts like that, you have to look cool, like where
is that? What's that? And then you get closer to
being cool with it or then it will quiet down.
But there's something that I'm not looking at if it
was a bit mad or you care too much what
people think. So I'm saying is like you have to
accept that. Just go cool? What why is that? What's

(27:07):
happening there? I feel like, But yeah, no, it's it's
been last few year's been it's been wild, but like
it's been like I've done it in a very quiet way.
It's been it's been wild in a sense like what
happens and and stuff like that, But that's what happens.
That the narratives that I've been a part of a
powerful and like the decisions are made to like stand

(27:27):
on things that I believe in or even basically like
a lot of the I know what I like, and
I like what I like. If people don't like it,
I'm like I would want to if I care, I
want to know why you don't like it. But I
like what I like, and I stand on decisions I make,
and I think they're not spreads. I don't know. Maybe
it's that's a bit different to how people handle their

(27:50):
careers in this day and age. So I don't know,
But that's just me guessing. I don't have a big
landscape and whatever decision people are making.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Of course, Yeah, what is it you feel like to
see some of those like nine year old fifteen year
old dreams come true? Like what does that feel like
in reality? Like what does that actually look like?

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Can't normal? I knew it? I know it. Like if
I minute I get the idea, I'm like, right cool
there bo. That's when I get excited on and it's
worked to it. So when you're working to it, when
you get there, it costs so much. You know, it

(28:29):
costs so much. If you want something that like you
really want, the price is so high that you're just
a bit like cool. You're not seeing it as for
the gine that you saw in the perspective at fifteen
at nine, you're seeing it all right. That cost me this,
that cost me that I had to wake up for.
I had to do this that there, I had to
grind it, I had to do this night, I had

(28:50):
to do this. You're seeing the cost it takes. You're
feeling the cost it takes. So when you land and
arrive cool, there was turbulence. You got here, I did
you just did? You know what I'm saying. And then
but the excitement comes from like feeling like you can
do it before you see all of it that makes sense,
like the full kind of picture because you're only seeing

(29:11):
the good, that's why you go there. But then like
everything's balanced, that's all it is. It's not like it's bad,
it's just like it's everything.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, yeah, I love I love that statement you just said,
Like you only see the good, that's why you go there.
And then when you go there, you see all of it,
but you realize that all of it was part of
getting you there. It was never possible to get there
without everything else, Like it was never and.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
Part of it you only seeing the good because like
entire issues like what people say about sex, like how
sex is like away for your genes to keep going,
Like it's it's like a creative body has created this
organism to keep going, so then you have this pleasure
out of it. So it's like like it's kind of like,
oh you got yeah, and then when you go in there,
I'm not saying sex is bad, like you go, you

(29:56):
go to full of it, you go to see fullness
of it. I I find it when you go on
those journeys. Yeah, there's something about the badness in it
that you have to face in yourself. And it's whether
you take the lesson. And if you don't take that lesson,
you will meet it again. You will meet it again
until it lets you go. And then me and you
meet and accept it. Sometimes you realize what I've realized that, like,

(30:18):
oh I don't even want that good now. Part of
it was me figuring out something in me that I
didn't really know that I wanted to figure out, you
know what I'm saying, But that was probably the majority
of it. You know what I'm saying. And the sex
impostals you go there, I'm saying is like do that.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
When did you get you said, when you haven't, I'm
gonna do a little bad impersonation. But you're like when
you get the idea, it's like boom, So where's the
where's where's the When did you get the idea for
the kitchen? And like, because I know that projects taking
a long time to come to life, right, eight years
or something, seven ten, ten.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, I've got the idea of the barbershop in Holloway.
I was sitting in the barber shop and then like
these guys were talking about taking stuff like these highest
a million pound highest and this is down the other
and they were talking but.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
They were doing actually doing this.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yeah, they were just chatting. I'm like, these guys are
talking and then like this and there was something was
on TV and I was like, yeah, that's the that's
that's that's that dude. And then I was like, wow,
that's And then in that moment, I was like I'd
love to see that film of people like going into
like diamond shorts stores and like robbing stuff. I was like,
I'd love to see that just in the barber chilling
because like my barber just kept on putting appointments before me,

(31:30):
even though I made an appointment, so I'll be sitting
in the whole half the day and then like so
then I was like, oh, I'd love to see that.
And then like and then I never saw him again ever,
and I was like, what happened too? And He's like yeah,
and then like I was like I couldn't shake it.
I was like it was thrilling, but there was a cost.

(31:51):
And I was seeing like twenty two in a barber
shop chill. I was like signing about that. Then I
did a bit more research and I realized that like, oh,
they're getting paid, like the stealing millions of pounds worth
of diamonds, but they're getting paid two hundred pounds. I
was like signing that. That says where we're at in

(32:13):
this world and what's going on in London where they
don't even know the value of what they're robbing, they
think it's worth two hundred and then willing to risk
their life and then freedom for it. Oh No, what's
what's going on there? I just kept digging, so I
just would go down there and then I'm like where
I grew up, Like how we grew up? Like obviously
you do like the professional jobs like you do like

(32:34):
Harry and Pool and the psychovills and then that. But
then I would have like a whole other career where
we just make YouTube videos and we just competing with
people and just make stuff. So then there was a
time when, like, because I wrote on skins and stuff,
and there was a time and like Ion wanted to
do meetings and talk about what my ideas were, and
I was like, I'm tired of these coffees man like.
And so I was like, and I've got the team together,

(32:56):
a direct producer and that that was building with and
then like and then I was like, oh, let's just
make it. So I asked my barber. He's in the film.
Actually I loved that he's in the film.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
And then I asked him, is he a barber in
the film?

Speaker 2 (33:13):
He's one of the he's one of the residents. He's
one of the main residents. But this is why, this
is why. So I went to the barber. He closed
on Wednesdays. So I was like, hey, bro, like, I
beg you, let's use your shot because I want Basically
it started as reservoir dogs in the barber shop, all right.
So then I was like, like, come use your shot
to shoot. He said, yeah, of course course, cose course.
Then I like paying people. He said I have a

(33:34):
three I was like nah, man, like please. And then
he was like you didn't have a budget. I think
me like two hundred pound each and we just shot something.
I got any actors and it then your crew and
then like and he was like, don't cut me out
of this, don't cut me out of this. I was like, oh,
I forgot You's like when it blows, keep I need
to stay involved. Said I got you. I got you.
So that's how it kind of started, and then it evolved.

(33:57):
It kept on evolving from them.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
Wow, I love that. I love hearing how like ideas
come about. And I appreciate that you have that memory.
Did you actually sit down with people who'd done those heists?
Did you meet some people who had actually gone through
with it?

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Met the guys, I met the girl, I met a
couple of guys that did stuff like that, and it
was just like I think I went there and it
was like, pretty it's pretty simple. Actually, it's like for me,
it was about the mentality, which I knew, I understood,
but it was like kind of being around the people
understanding just like hanging with them, hanging with them and
the people that in the news and next so I said,

(34:30):
I children them and they was like this is doAnd
the other. But they I think them kind of guys
like they we understand each other because I kind of
go into the industry like listen, I'm just doing what
want like I'm just going to go in there. And
I think that's how that's the energy that they have.
But yeah, now they were they're interesting people.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Well what did you learn about them? Do you feel
they were just they're just trying to survive or they're
trying to or they sold the dream or what's kind
of motivating them to do that.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
I don't know. I think they just they just do
it because like it's just what it's part of the operation.
Is what they do is what they know is their reality.
It's that's what they know. That's how they've chosen five.
Whether they've been the older brother or been the only
boy in the family or whatever, the reason is that
they've gone down that path. They did it, and they
have a level of intelligence that means they've been able
to organize an operation and like talk to people and

(35:21):
communicating this and that, and like I said, like they're right,
but that's they're just doing that in this realm saying
it's like I found, I found how they think more
interesting than what they do. And that's what I wanted
to exploring. This is like exposing the thought and the
principles behind how they live and what their values are

(35:42):
and why and how it's connected to and if they
people are really true to it. So basically like someone
that Staples in the film, he doesn't do anything criminal
to per se, Yeah, but it's like he has the
mentality and the values just saying is like he's just
got He thinks the enemy isn't the other postcode or
the other block. The enemy is a system and he

(36:06):
engages with them. How he how we would see a
kid like that engage with the other block yea in
the postcode? He goes is you look and he just
engages them that that that's a powerful energy, is a
powerful mentality, it's a leader. So I kind of was
just interested in that and how those people think and

(36:26):
how that can be. How can motor and a kind
of like a cultural identity. And I felt that kind
of like London had the energy of like bro, we
do what we want, Like if you're really from there,
if you're really from there, and I feel you have
the energy, but you're just a monk and that I mean,
you're like it's then you're like, hey, it's me. You're
like you're doing it for good things. But it's like

(36:47):
I think London, it's I always felt London was a
special city, a very special city. But are sometimes our
humility and class ceiling, Yeah, stops us from like doing
what we want to do. Like people there's a glass
ceiling and I'm like, it's made of glass. You can

(37:08):
break it, like it's made to get something. And I
feel like what I was around was basically what I
grew up around was that mentality we're going to make
it work, We're going to make it happen, and not
in an arrogant way. We just because we want it
to happen. We just we mean it. It's sincerity, we
mean it. We just want it to happen, and like

(37:29):
it's more than us. And I feel like London And
then I've researched about London, about the blitz and how
the mentality of like when London was bombed for the
first time, how like people were scared and then after
it they were like, oh we survived. And how it
built a resilience in the city, like a kind of
resilience that I feel like it's still here. But because

(37:50):
of the class system and that keep calm, carry on mentality,
we kind of squash it and like like are very
like regional with how with our dreams we think, oh yeah,
if we got this, then that's enough because said person
said that's all you can get? Who is this person?
That's how I feel. Who are you to limit me?

(38:14):
That doesn't make sense to me?

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, do you think people are scared to dream? Or
is it scared or they're accepting a limit or what? What?
How would you want to.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
One of the big moments I had one of the
big breakthroughs I feel when the script was like randomly
like so like I think Black Mirror was like twenty
two four years later, like Blue in America.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's not America.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Netflix exit with a thing, So I did that. I
did this TV show and then and then I did
a thing that it crossed over in America, so I
was in New York and then like it was years
after I did it. It was main of a packet.
I fight right then, So I had a photo shoot.
So I stayed a photohoot and I was like, I've
got to watch the fight here. So I stayed in

(38:55):
this flat bedstarle and I was chilling, and I was
just so. I was in New York. In New York,
going to I'll get to the church, went to the branch,
I was going everywhere. I was. I was rolling to
the parties, went everywhere. And then I was like and
I was. And then I was walking around and there's
a massive poster of Biggie in Brooklyn, and I looked

(39:16):
at it. I was like, they really love themselves. This
is someone that's come from there and they've pushed that.
I don't think London would. We wouldn't see our heroes
of now on that pedestal, on that platform. We wouldn't
see them as who they are. What was period of time,
so huh. I came back home and I used to

(39:38):
like go calli pool, but I used to run from
my place to go Cally Pool. I used to get
a lot of things from our jogs, so I'd run there.
It's ten minutes jog, and I would look around. I'm
like the same demographic as New York, literally same demographic.
What's the difference. Why does New York feel like New
York and then London feels And I was just run

(39:58):
running around. I was like, these guys don't believe themselves.
I won't believe myself, and I think my career has shifted.
But also I think there I just feel I want
that for London. I want that we're global, we're playing
world class rent. I want world class results from the city.
Do you know what I'm saying? So like, but for
whatever reason, we're just like going no, no, no. It's

(40:18):
like I just don't I don't believe in that. I
don't believe in that. And I feel like New York
has just decide with this, And I think if London
has decided with this, I think everything will flourish. And
I think a lot of it came from that if
we're being honest about who we are, as opposed to
kind of hiding and kind of suppressing and kind of
this quick keep calm it, carry on, sheen that we're

(40:41):
pretending to be where we're actually as a culture very
quite cocky or sure about who we are, what we
stand for. Even the fact that when you grow up
in London, like you really still stay hanging out with
your friends that you grew up with. What I'm saying,
it's like, it's sure because that's what it is I mean,
and that's there's a level of conviction and values that

(41:02):
I feel we're not honest about publicly. And I want
I wanted more. I wanted more for London.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, I love that, man. I relate to so much
of that as someone who considers myself through and through
London born, raised, university school, everything. All my best friends
are here, you know, and obviously I don't live here anymore,
but when I'm back, it's like, to me, yeah, London
raised me, and you have that kind of affinity to
this city in such a special way. But yeah, I
feel similar to you that I feel often people think

(41:31):
if you if you dream bigger, or you think beyond,
or you are pursuing the limitless, it's almost seen as
less than. It's seen as like no, no, no, don't don't
try that, like that's it's not worth it, it's not
worth it. Or when we feel we have to present
ourselves to others, well like no, no, you shouldn't even have

(41:51):
to do that. You should it should just happen, and
it's like, well no, sometimes it takes a bit of
work and convincing and pushing the boundaries as you're saying
as well, And so I can relate to all of
that and I feel the same way. I feel the
same way. London is fully global and London has so
much incredible talent in all these different industries, and I
think it needs to be shared globally too. We don't

(42:12):
need to stay just here.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah, I don't. I don't think so. I think. I
think we've got a lot to say, and we've got
an interesting perspective, and I just want to I want
more of it. Like a lot of the time I
do things. I was like coming in and I may
mess it up, but at least at least I went
for it. At least I went for it and I
believed in it, and then hopefully someone after me refine
it so then I can learn signing and I'll go

(42:36):
for it.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
On the back.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
That's the whole point, like, just go for it. It's
not about you, It's about your ideas, what you can
hear and what you can let through. That's what this is, man,
And so what are you doing like what you're listening to,
what radio station is to, what ideas you're letting up?
That's how I see it.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, how do you get I'm introdused. I loved how
you talked about how the idea for the kitchen formed.
How do you get curious and critique your own ideas?
Because I'm sure you have ideas popping at you all
the time. How do you kind of like filter it
down to be like, oh, this is an idea that
I really love versus going to park that I'm going

(43:15):
to take that from here, Like, walk me through what's
happening in your mind, because I feel like when you
do have an idea that you're sure off and you go, yeah,
that's the one. It seems so clear. But I'm guessing
you have a million ideas before you get.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
That it's clear when you know it's clear, That's what
I think. In that time, it's like before the true clarity,
you can't It's like you just can't shake it off.
You can't stop thinking about it, you can't stop thinking
about it. You can't stop thinking about it. You keep going,
you keep going, keep going, and then it goes, oh,
I've got to do it, and I really truly, there's

(43:47):
loads of ideas, but like what I read like like
loads of ideas, but then like someone ends up doing it.
And when someone ends up doing it, I get really happy.
You're like, oh cool after do it? M m they
did it, like I don't. I don't. I don't see
it as mine as seems what I hear and what
I can see, like I think no. Guy Looker said

(44:08):
in the interview one time, like and there's an island
discs and that. He said, like they asked him about
like I can't wonder well one of them songs he made.
They were like, what's it? Like he said, it's like
fishing and you got in there by the shore and
just waiting and he's waiting you on me all that. Oh.
Michael Jackson described it one time where like he was
saying how like he was writing, he's writing a song

(44:30):
and they were like, oh, Michael, like go bed like
you're tired. He's like, I can't, Michael go bed, Like
I can't. Let why He's like, I can't because if
I go to bed, God will give the song to
Prince and the like you get it like it's not
like it's not mine, it's what my expertise, my hours,

(44:50):
my perspective, my I may have an idea, but I'm
not the right have I had the right upbringing to
really actualize it. Like it's all these fat is that
come to you, letting it through. You know what I'm saying.
So I could see things like oh, yeah, that's a
great idea, but I'm like, I'm not that's not I'm
not sure if I'm able to give that. So a

(45:11):
lot of time when I act in that how I
define it, A lot of time is there's stuff I
want to say and the stuff I want to help
people say. Acting is me helping someone say something because
I'm like, oh I really want to say that too,
but I haven't got time to like yeah, I just
I help you say it. Like while this is like
oh okay, nice stuff, I realized, oh I'm I'm the

(45:32):
one that is supposed to say this. I can say this.
And then you have to check yourself and go how
much you thinking about yourself? How big is your mentality
or like it could be limiting or like you mean,
it's like there's a whole process. That's why it's taking
me time. But I think when I did Skins when
I wrote on Skins, I had a thing that when
in my career I was like, all right, cool, do

(45:52):
I want to be a great singer or do you
I want to sing great songs? Yeah, And I think
my career shifted when I was like, I want to
sing great songs. And then I realized, in that process,
you become a great singer. So when skins on, you're
inheriting characters, you're singing a great song essentially. And then
I realized, in this process, I've had to learn how
to make a song, you know what I'm saying, How
that to create a character, how that, to create relationship design?

(46:12):
I had to create structure, Like you have to learn
all that in order to get to the standard that
I like. You know what I'm saying that it's not
you can release it, but I wouldn't because I just
have a higher standard for myself and the stuff I like.
And I want me and my friends to like what
I make or what I help someone make.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
I love what you said, man, And it's so interesting,
Like when I'm listening to someone speak on the podcast,
I'm always just trying to like sense, like what energy
kind of connects everything They're saying and every time you
speak and every time the way you answer stuff is
is counterintuitive in a good way because I hear peace
and calm through all of it. Like even for you

(46:54):
to just say right now that when someone makes something
that I had an idea about, you accept that with peace,
that that's not my idea. It wasn't meant to be mine.
Where a lot of us see someone make an idea
come that we maybe one day had randomly, and we're like,
they did my idea, Like I wish, you know, I
could have been the person or whatever. We often feel
a bit of competitiveness comparison and you have actually the

(47:14):
opposite roads to sense of peace and like, actually that's
great for them, good for them.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
And happy they made. I want to see it, Yeah,
I want to see it, like I want to see it,
and it's like it's the reality of like, oh yeah,
to be too well, I'm the one to make the
idea in that certain kind of level that cost a lot.
Like so if someone does it and they wanted to
pay the price, I'm gonna sit front row. I' a
fan of it, saying that back then I buy the DVD.

(47:38):
I'm saying I would like I would support it because
I'm just happy it exists. I was happy. I just
want things to exist. I think the world that we
kind of come into is really fake to say this
is this, this is that, Like it's just people decided that.
I just decided it's something different, and I think other
people just decide something different. And I love seeing people

(47:59):
make decisions.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
M hmm. I know, I know you know this, and
I hope you know that. That is beautiful. Man, that
is that mindset is like top notch. That said, that's
another level of thinking.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
I wouldn't see it that way, but I hear you.
I accept that.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
I'm yeah, I'm just saying I love that because I
think if we could all live in that way where
we could all be happy for what bringing things into existence,
whether it's brought by us or brought by others, that's
that's a beautiful state to live in.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
To make something that doesn't exist to exist is incredible.
I think it's insane. Yeah, so I see that there's
an Italian back we just forgot. I was that I
was not saying whatever, but like but like like when
Thomas said, oh you can't do this, I'm like a
man and a woman have sex, yeah, and they make
a baby. That is so incredible.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
It's insane.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
It's like I just like, I just don't you think
that's the most insane. But that's really difficult to have.
It's really difficult for us. It's a really difficult it's
a difficult process. It's all these other thousand guys trying
to get in there to you're coming. I'm here, like
I just I just it's I don't know. It makes
me I celebrate simple things like I remember at school,

(49:16):
I used to look up in the sky. I can't
like this interview is making me realize I was a
special kid. But I look at this guy like if
it's sick, the planes can fly. Yeah, but it's it's
so heavy, it's so heavy. There's so many people, there's
so many bags. What's going on? Like, I just gotta
learn this playground, Like what's going on it? This is

(49:38):
this is wild And I just was fo I just
just think that's one of the most amazing things ever.
Like that's why I always wanted to fly on the Concorde,
and I never got around it because it got done
by at the time I got there. But even a
fast there was a faster one. I mean, it's just
like wow. Because it's common, it doesn't mean it's still
not wow. Yeah, And I think because there's a lot

(49:58):
of it, people then this regarded specialists because there's a
lot of it. I just don't do that.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Yeah, really, Yeah, we've lost that experience of awe and
fascination when you have things that surprise you because everything
around you is making the most difficult things look easy
ai VR, Like I mean today, you know, you could
go on and on, like everything's becoming so accessible.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
And the editor of this kitchen we call it island.
When you're staying in is yeah, this is what it
is like. And then like so when you're in island,
that is amazing because that a big metal box that
has three hundred people with like eight hundred kilos of
luggage going from San Francisco to London is incredible. That

(50:44):
is amazing. And I just kind of I always go
our way mim in Island? Am I there? Am I there?
Because then you're in just perception land or whatever you
think it is or whatever your past paying or whatever
with this crap. Crap is valid, but like it's just
staying that. Yeah, it's powerful.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
With your mindset and the amount of calm and peace
there is in your life internally, internally you're you're thinking
like a monk. Honestly, Yeah, because it's it's the mindset piece, man,
It's it's the mindset. I'm not guessing that it's the
mindset piece. Like you know, when I asked you every question,
I've asked you. The things that have come out of
your mind your mouth, peace and calm, and it's come naturally.

(51:28):
It's not like you're trying to be zen like, it's
just coming out because that's where you're trying to live.
And so that's what it means, like in the modern
day where you know, we're not trying to live a
particular monk life in that sense externally, but there's a
sense of peace within. There's a sense of calm within,
and I love seeing it in other people. I always
say one of the other people I saw in during

(51:49):
an interview was Kobe Bryant. Like when I sat with
him and I interviewed him, he had so much gravitas
and so much calm and zen around him, and he
wasn't spewing like verses or trying to sound you know, spiritual.
He wasn't. He wasn't doing that same ways you're not
doing that, But it was a natural part of about
their presence, and so I respect it. I love seeing
it in other people.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Thank you so much. Havah.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Yeah, I mean that I want to dive into and
I love I love this idea about what is and
what isn't and what could have been, what should have been,
what would have been a lot of us live in that.
What if if someone's listening right now and they're listening
to you, and I'm I know this for a fact,
anyone who's listened to you this far today, if you're
still listening to the episode, which I know you are,

(52:33):
I know that people are going to be moved. I
know people are going to be inspired. I know there's
a lot of people going to be going, oh my god,
I didn't know he'd been through all of that, and
you know, like skins and like just writing and the
challenges and the stress. What would you like people to
know about you that maybe you think they don't know
or or understand about you, that maybe you've never really

(52:54):
been able to talk about or share or or express.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
I don't know, because I'm not I don't I struggle
with like my perception, Like I don't really because because
a lot of the fame, it's not like I chose
to be this famous. It kind of came as a
product of the work and it was a surprise product.
Like I did a film and then a year later
I was at the Oscars. I mean, so it was
like it was like, oh, I'm not really I think

(53:20):
I get the vibe where I'm like, people don't get
me in America anyway, and then in England, I think
people do get me, but they still because they get
me to go, they don't understand how I've done it.
I don't. I'm not really I'll keep it. Really, I've
learned how to not be as invested in how people
perceive me. But I just not invested in it because

(53:42):
then you're consistently curated like I've been there. It's like
I'm not sitting there like holier than that, like I've
been there. I've been in it trying to trying to
look at a certain way. I mean, like I was just like, wow,
I was happy enough. So like I don't know, but
if from you, if you want to go ask questions

(54:02):
and I'll be open to and I'll be able to elaborate.
I would love to what I'm saying, but for me,
I don't go like because if I've really engaged people mentally,
I could not get to where I've Yeah, I could
not get to where I've got to. So that's a
lot of that, A lot of that is in that
of that kind of being so like, that's what I think.

(54:23):
You know what I'm saying, but I'm open. No no, no
as well.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
No no, no, I get what you're saying, and I don't.
I don't you know. I think that it's it's tricky
because you're right that you can need to get so
lost in cultivating and crafting and curating how you're perceived
and then still people won't perceive you that way even
if you do all of that, or you can kind
of let it go and it kind of flows in
its own direction and then you've made peace with that,

(54:49):
which which I think is probably the healthier option because
at least you can live and breathe.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
I'll give you an example, right, So I was I
remember like I didn't really like I came in this game,
like I didn't watch I watched like Batman and Robin
so I'm not really, I'm just living life.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
I'm a kid, my Valcum.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Yeah, they took George Clooney like that, Like just I'm
watching life like films that come out, you know what
I mean. So when I got into the industry, I
was like talking about this art house, from this arthouse,
from this, this, this, this, that and the other. And
I remember HIV had this deal where you can black
by one pound two pound films, so just by loads
of films. And I would just watch all the people

(55:25):
that people spoke about that, like the legends like menon
Street Lewis, like Shane Meadows, Paddy Consertin, like all these
people that people were like around that time, around oh seven,
that people just obsessed about. But what the time watching?
And I w go, oh, like all right, cool. I
watched it. Active was like, okay, that's you're clearly really
good at what you do, But so what like what

(55:49):
four I mean? And I realized I cared more about
that than how great you were at something that was
aimless or perss. Then I realized great didn't mean anything.
Being really great at your job being really good didn't mean,
it didn't mean and it had no emotion to it.
So that some person's really great. Then I obviously i'd

(56:12):
watched all those that's those films, and I went for that.
And then what happens when you go for that is
a bit of a prison. And then you watch your
work back and you're just critique in yourself. You're not
enjoying it. You're just critique and critique and in your head,
in your in your in your head. Then I had
to go, yo, I can't keep doing this. I can't
every time I do a job, just kind of because

(56:33):
I'm always I always used to be that improv like
think about the whole week. I'll do it, improving the
whole week. I should have done this, I should have
done that. Should next week, I'm gonna go this. I
missed up and then and I was like this isn't
this isn't enjoyable. And then I got to a place
where I was like, oh, don't try and be good,
try and be honest. Like what I say, truth is

(56:55):
what happened. Honestly is how you feel about what happened.
So that's how I felt like. I was just like, yo,
like this is half this is what I feel like
A minute I go for something that's honest. I'll do
something at work and then a year later you watch
it back and it's you're in a completely different space
that you was a year ago, and you wouldn't have
done it that way. But I just go, That's how

(57:15):
I felt.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
That's the honesty that I felt.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
That's where I was that if I can't it's not now.
Time is as important as you like. It's not like
the time is there, the time like the time where
you was at got you there. Yeah, And a lot
of jobs is like I'm the best person for the job.
After the job I'm saying. It's like and you have
to make people you grew because you grew because you

(57:39):
learned how to do it, and now you go if
you give me now, and it's it's like an annoying
thing to be in. Everybody's like you have to go with.
That's how I felt. I was honest. If I was honest,
I can always walk away and go put my head
up like. That's so I felt, And so that's what
I go for, Like in terms of everything, I got, yoh,
that's where I'm at. Man, it's half man and then

(58:01):
oh yeah, and if I say something different for years,
they're like yeah, ye, it's because I went through something
and my mentality or something shift. I changed my mind,
So it's not it's not like that. That's how Really
what I engage with now is this guy like any
other like micro management of my perception. I'm too meticulous

(58:27):
for me to really go in that lane because then
I will really micromanager. So then I was like, well,
what's just be real? And then and people that get
get people that don't, that's what they're supposed to do.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm glad I asked that
question because I love where you took it, and I
think what I'm intrigued by by what you said is
what is what are the projects that you're now And
I don't mean specifics like I don't need to name
stuff that you're working on, but what is it that
you want your work to mean today as you are writing,
as you're producing, as you're now in charge of the story.

(58:58):
Obviously you've been selective over roles you've played, but I mean,
now that you're telling your own stories, writing your own stories,
producing them would you've been doing since day one, but
now doing it at this level, what do you want
it to mean? What do you want people to feel.
What are the things you'd like people want to feel.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
I don't think I can manage it, yeah, because that
will rob them from their experience, right, or what I
want people to feel about the stuff I made right
and producing direct to anything I do in my life, Yeah,
is to go someone to take it in, call their
friend and have you seen this? This is mad? And

(59:39):
then and they get points from their friend because they
have shared something that. I mean, it's like there's a
song that's amazing and they're like, this is mad. And
then now forever you're going to rate that, you're going, Oh,
I introduce you to that, just say do you feel
like yeah, like I got it? Like I want my

(01:00:01):
work to feel like that. I want it to feel
to share it to there's an excitement, it's like there's
a crackle to it, like I want there to be
like I want it to be shareable, because I do
think sometimes in a lot of work is there's stuff
you share, this stuff you don't. It could be as
good as great as you want the stuff that you
want to share, This stuff you don't want to share.
It's a lot of depressing stuff I do not want
to share. But they are excellent, it's incredible. You just

(01:00:25):
mean then you take it what you take into for
whatever reason. And I do love the fact that people
got ye this is this makes you feel something. This
makes me, This makes me want to move. You know
what it is? You know what it is. I want
to make music that makes people want to dance. And
how what I mean by that? It's like kind of
like you can't intellectualize why someone dances. Do you know
what u'mer saying? It's just they do they move? I mean,

(01:00:46):
I want to just move people move people to go
I'm gonna do that, or I want to do this,
or like I want to share this. I want to
I want to There's something that comes after it that
means you that's bigger than any adjective. Do you know
what I'm saying? Because a lot of times, a lot
of people's feelings are just adjectives, the stuff that you
say on Twitter, and not stuff that's we are actually feeling.

(01:01:09):
So that's that's where that's why I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
A great answer man, great answer. The reason why I
love that is when I started, when I first made
my first ever video and people said why did you
make it? I said, because I wanted someone to send
it to their friend and say that's what we were
talking about. Yes, and that's what we were talking about,
and I didn't know how to We didn't add it,
but that that video helped explain, yes, what I was
going through. But Daniel, you've been amazing. I've got a

(01:01:31):
final five. We do this with every guest. These final
five have to be answered in one word to one
sentence maximum. So Daniel, these are your final five. The
first question is what is the best advice you've ever heard,
received or given.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
I've got one professionally, but I've got one personally. I
used to reject it as a kid, this advice, but
now I'm older, I get the more I'm realizing how
much as my mum is always saying everything matters, everything,
everything little matters, and I would let I wouldn't focus
on detail. I willn't focus on details. And then now
I'm old, I'm realizing the detail isn't about the details.

(01:02:06):
This is about what it says about you and how
easily you can show up on everything else if you
just practice simple details and it goes everything little matters,
just everything that matters.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
I think that I love that that's great, man. We
never had that, and I fully agree, all right. Question
number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard,
received or given?

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
I can't remember specific, but I can remember how it
made me feel and how I reacted to it in
my head when they said it, when they basically were
just saying accept less, basically what the principle was. And
I think I just erase it when people say that,
they go, you know, you're not supposed to like, you
know this or that person deserves basically based on that

(01:02:45):
person deserves more. I think everyone deserves more that I mean,
it's not like I believe so if you decide that
you want more than you can get, if you don't,
then chilly. I mean, it's not like and I feel
like when people are communicating sub continent just be communicating
a hierarchy that they went out of that doesn't benefit me.

(01:03:06):
I just got your chatting rubbish, but like I can't.
It's that's I think it's accept less.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Love that all right. Question number three, what's the first
thing you do when you wake up and the last
thing you do when you go to bed?

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Pray? Pray?

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
M what's the prayer?

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Just? Thanks? Thanks? I got into that. I used to
it as my mom as a kid. She made me
the Bible with you now you should be the probother day.
You know they got like thirty one chapters and that
I used to read it as a kid. And then
I don't know what I got into a players. I
was just like, no, man, because one time I had
to audition. I really wanted this audition. I weren't really

(01:03:44):
all know that and we wanted this audition. I just prayed,
who am I chatting to?

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
What is on it?

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
I was in New York. I remember I really wanted it,
Like why did I feel to do that? And I
just ignored it just kind of carried on my life.
It's like twenty sixteen was like and then I think
I work to a place and I was like, you
know what it makes me? Just stay? Yeah, thanks, focus
on what I think and like what I'm grateful for,

(01:04:16):
and then like humility because my ego can get world sometimes,
So teach me how to just chill and I listen
to myself. Yeah, I think God's in you. I don't
think God's above you. It's not big brother N eighty four.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
I love that. I'm going to take that as question
four because I followed up fifth and final question. Yeah,
if you could create one law in the world that
everyone had to follow, what would it be.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
If you have been proven in one way, shape or
form to hate someone or a group of people, your
punishment is to live with them for a year.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Mmmm.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
Anyone even like Twitter, hate anything on you do your
that's like nine to five or whatever, Boom boom, you
go live with them for a year, and it's being there.
I think that's just off top.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
Really, that's a great answer, man. Yeah, I like that
a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Yeah, that's that's that's what that is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
I like that. You there, That's a great answer. That's dope.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Appreciate you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
I appreciate you. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Er.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
If you love this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode
with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how
to speak to yourself with more compassion.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
My fears are only going to continue to show me
what I'm capable of. The more that I face my fears,
the more that I feel I'm gaining strength, I'm gaining wisdom,
and I just want to keep doing that.

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Host

Jay Shetty

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Daniel Kaluuya: How to Respond When No One Believes in You & Why Other People's Perception of You is Not Your Reality