Dr. Becky Kennedy: #1 Parenting Mistake Fueling Your Kid’s Anxiety! Follow THIS Proven Framework to Raise Emotionally Strong Adults

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've gone from not caring about kids emotions to being
scared of kid's emotions. The more you optimize for happiness
in childhood, the more you actually wire for anxiety in adults.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Doctor Becky can, Doctor Becky can go to voice for
mot helping parents break cycles and build connections. What actually
makes a good parent?

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Repair without a doubt is the most important parenting strategy.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
What's the worst thing a parent can say to a
child that's going through a difficult time.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
I don't care about your feelings. I'm not listening, I'm
not really connecting. I am telling you what to do.
I'm leading with control.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Can you be your kid's best friend and still set boundaries?

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Kids need us to embody our authority, boundaries and validation.
When paired together, that's what makes for really resilient folks.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
What's the cost of being a good kid who never
caused problems?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
You can't learn to manage emotions you feel like you're
not allowed to have. If we can't tolerate the challenging
feelings our kids have and we look for a quick distraction,
what they learn is I'm a kid and I find
my feelings overwhelming, But oh my goodness, my parent lies.
Myth is overwhelming.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
You've said it's not your job to make your kids happy? Yeah,
what is a parents to the number one health and
wellness podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Jay Sheety, Jay Sheddy, see Y Only Jay shet.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Hey. Everyone, Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you
come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so
grateful that I get to talk to today's thought leaders
and experts about the things that matter that make a
difference in our daily lives. And today's topic is something
I'm fascinated by. It's something I talk to my wife
Riley about a lot, and it's something that takes a
lot on my mind space, even though I'm not one

(01:45):
of these yet. But today's topic is parenting, and today's
guest is doctor Becky Kennedy, clinical psychologist, best selling author
and founder of Good Inside, a global parenting and mental
health platform named by Time as the Millennial parent Whisperer.
Doctor Becky is known for bringing practical, compassionate tools that

(02:06):
help families and individuals thrive. Doctor Becky's best selling book
Good Inside has helped over a million people feel seen
and supported through life's toughest moments and in today's episode,
we dive into how to honor hard emotions, set healthy boundaries,
and grow through the everyday challenges of parenting and connection.
In all honesty, I've sparked so many of the best

(02:28):
conversations I've had around becoming a parent because of doctor
Becky Kennedy's work, So I'm so excited to have her
on the show today. Becky, Welcome to On Purpose.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
So great to have you here. I want to start
off by diving into just things that you say that
really stick with me and I, oh, yes, I feel
like that resonates. You said we've gone from not caring
about kids feelings to letting kids' feelings dictate what we
do as parents.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
And when you said that, of course, I'm looking at
this as someone who wants to be a parent, but
I'm looking at parents around me that idea that we
all feel. We grew up at a time when our
parents didn't care, they weren't present, they didn't know what
was going on with our feelings and emotions. We've now
gone to a place of our kids' feelings dictating what
we do. Yeah, talk to me about that.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, I think naming this over correction is really helpful because, yes,
decades ago, I mean probably still some families now, right,
it's I don't know, it's say some version of I
don't want to go to Aunt Sally's house. I don't
care if we want to go to Aunt Sally's house.
Put in a smile, put on your shoes or else,
and then some consequence. Right, Okay, that would be I

(03:40):
don't care about your feelings. I'm not listening, I'm not
really connecting. I am telling you what to do. I'm
leading with control, And I think there's a generation of
people who are like that. Didn't feel good? Yeah, And
we also know that emotions and learning how to understand
your emotions, how to manage your emotions. You can't learn
to manage emotions. You feel like you're not allowed to

(04:00):
have disappointment as a kid. How could you ever manage
disappointment as an adult? So it's not really the pathway
to strengthen resilience, right, But yes, what I've noticed is
something completely overcorrected that I would say is equally as
bad for kids. Same situation, I don't want to go
to Aunt Sally's today. It's so boring. I want to
hang out with my friends. Okay, you know what, and

(04:22):
then fill in the blank. I'll get a sitter, I'll
stay home. I'll let me call three different people, and
you see what you can do. And there's so many
examples of this. I don't want to leave the playground, Okay, well,
I guess we'll stay at the playground longer. And it's
not to say I'm against parent flexibility. Sometimes, of course
we can be flexible, but we've gone from not caring
about kids emotions to being scared of kid's emotions. That's

(04:44):
why we let them run the show. That's why we
give our kids emotions kind of the steering wheel. And
I think what we stand for a good inside is
something remarkably in the middle. It is very important to
see your kid's feelings as real. That's really what it is.
That's what validation is. It's a process of saying to
someone else kind of I might not be feeling what
you're feeling, but what you are feeling is real, and

(05:07):
I am interested in learning about it. I think that's
very important. Oh, you don't want to go to Sally's house.
I get it, you'd rather be sitting home and watching
the basketball game on TV. Totally hear you, and then
I think there's a well placed and because that is
part of our job. Empathizing with a kid's feelings is
only half of your job as a parent. The other

(05:28):
half is setting a true boundary. Is what I think
of as authority without aggression, which is rarely modeled but
is important, which is some version of we committed to
going to Aunt Sally's as a family. And the truth
is there's a good amount of things we all have
to do that are number one on our agenda, that
are even a little bit boring. This is one of
those things. It's okay if you whine on the way there.

(05:51):
I know when we get there, you're going to be
able to pull it together. It's not going to be
your most fun Saturday, but we'll get through it as
a family. All right. What kind of music do you
want to listen to in the car?

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Why do we find that so tough? Why is that
so hard to do as a parent.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
I think there's so many factors, So I think part
of it is actually just a lack of confusion and teaching. Right,
I think we can get into this bigger conversation I'll
just name it and not go into it. Now. Parenting
is the last job in the world where we glorify
instinct alone. We haven't been taught well, how do I
connect to my kid but also hold a boundary?

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Right?

Speaker 1 (06:27):
It would be like telling a surgeon to do surgery
without medical school. That's kind of what we do to parents.
So it's really hard, yeah, literally right. And I remember
going home with a baby. I looked around really like,
no one's just a car seat. Like, I remember looking
around and no one was coming. I was like, guess,
I'm good. Okay, that's what we do. And it's the

(06:47):
hardest job in the world. So I think part of
it is how can you employ a skill in a
difficult situation when you've never been taught a skill and
that skill wasn't modeled in your own childhood. So I
think that's number one. Number two And this is like
a really big one for kind of why right now
is this so powerful? So much of parenting is inconvenient. It's

(07:10):
just the word that's not talked about enough for parenting.
When you have to get out your door to go
to Aunt Sally's fiftieth luncheon, which my guess is maybe
you're not really even dying to do either. There's a
lot of frustration, like your kid is whining, your kid
is saying why they shouldn't go. And if I think
about where parenting is today versus decades ago, I think

(07:32):
as adults we've become less and less tolerant of frustration.
We have our phones, we have our dopamine, we have
so much more ease in our life. And one of
the things I always think about is our kids can't
learn to tolerate feelings we don't tolerate in them. So
if I have an increasingly lowered frustration tolerance because of

(07:52):
all of the ease and dopamine hits in my life,
I am inherently less tolerant of my kid's whining.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
And then the reason I let my kids whining take
the driver's seat and I say, fine, you know what,
just go to your friend's house. I actually think it
doesn't even have to do with making our kid happy,
which I don't think is good as a predominant philosophy either.
I actually just want to stop feeling frustrated myself. I
just don't want to deal with it. So if we
can't tolerate our kids disappointment or frustration, they're not learning to,

(08:25):
which is why then it looks like their emotions are
making all the decisions.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Wow, that's extremely powerful, which is why because they can't
tolerate their feelings because of our reaction to their feelings,
they now don't actually develop resilience or grit or all
the things we want them to develop, because tolerance and
knowing how to accept and sit in the feeling is
such an important skill set.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
I mean, this is everything right. I think I'm a
visual person, so I've done this before, but I think
it matters that. You know, if we think about kids,
they're born into the world, and they're born with all
the feelings and none of the skills to manage feelings.
There's a gap. All the feelings, none of the skills.
Bad behavior, whether it's a four year old hitting their sister,

(09:08):
whether it's your teenager saying I'm not going to aunt Sally's,
whether a kid is saying I hate you, you're the
worst mom, I don't want to be in this family.
Lying to your face, every single acting out behavior is
a sign that feelings are greater than skills. But the
problem isn't the feelings the problem is the lack of skills.

(09:29):
So the answer to over time having a lot better
behavior or something more powerful than behavior, it's building skills,
building emotion regulation skills. Kids are not born with those skills,
and we as parents, we are kind of the coaches.
But I think as our life gets so busy, right
as we're more distracted, and just to be clear, me
say right away, I'm not like above this, I'm not

(09:51):
like you should all watch me. I'm a perfectly present
parent all the time. Nor modern life is so hard, right,
But yes, if we can't tolerate the challenging feelings our
kids have and we look for a quick distraction or
a quick exit for them right away, then what they
learned is something really interesting. What they learn is I'm

(10:14):
a kid and I find my feelings overwhelming, but oh
my goodness, my parent lives my feelings overwhelming. The things
that feel scary and toxic to me, maybe they really
are scary and toxic, and then you know, things can
kind of go from there.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, And I think one of the challenges with that
is that not only do the kids not have the skills,
we potentially as adults have never had time to develop
the skills ourselves and no one taught us, and so
that pattern continues. How do you overcome? Mom?

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Gill Ah, such a good question. So let me paint
a scenario, because I want to know if we're talking
about the same thing. So I'll hear what I kind
of refer to before as a situation like I'm going
out to dinner with my friends, and it's often I
have a group of my friends without kids around, and
I don't know, however long a long time. But then
I have my daughter my son clinging to my leg. Mom,

(11:07):
you never put me to bed. Meanwhile, in this situation,
if it's like my house, I've like put my kid
to bed for the last thirty seven nights, okay, but
still in that moment, it's like, you never put me
to bed. And then what a mom will often say
to me is I feel so guilty, Like I feel
so guilty it's not even worth going out to dinner,
Like it's not even worth it. I don't know, is
that kind of along the lines? Okay, let's for Okay,

(11:27):
So the way I see this, I actually don't think
we're talking about guilt here. I don't. I think this
is a misunderstanding of what guilt is, so we'll start
with that. To me, guilt is a feeling you have
when you act out of alignment with your values, and
in that way, it's a very important feeling, Like all
of our feelings are important for information because it helps

(11:50):
you have enough discomfort to reflect. I'm like, well, what
are my values? Like if I know showed to this
podcast and didn't even text you, I'd feel guilty. It
is not within my value system to no show on people, right,
that would be helpful, And I think, why did I
do that? Right? But what I hear all the time
from moms is going out to dinner my kids clinging.

(12:10):
I feel guilty. So I'll say, okay, really, is it
within your value system? And only you would know this
while you're a mother to see your friend some at
the time, one hundred percent of moms say yeah. So
I say, okay, So this is interesting. This is definitely
a painful experience. But this is not guilt. This literally
isn't guilt. And here's what I think it is. I

(12:32):
think as women especially, but it's not only for women.
Going back to that good girl idea, we've developed the
tendency to scan our environment and see other people who
are upset with us, and we kind of do this.
We're like, you're feeling uncomfortable. I will take that feeling
out of your body. I will take it into my body,

(12:55):
and I will call it guilt, and I will change
something I'm doing so you don't have to feel that way.
That's not guilt, that's actually emotional confusion. And I find
visuals helpful. So to me, if you picture yourself on
a tennis court, Let's say I'm on one side and
my daughter, who's clinging to me, is on the other side.

(13:16):
But instead of a tennis net, let's say there's a
glass wall. What will happen is I'm like, okay, I'm
on my side. I know I want to go dinner
to my friends. I haven't seen them. It's important. It's
in my value system. I'm grounded in that. Over there
is my daughter who's upset. Number one or two things
are true? Can help here? Two things are true. I'm
allowed to go to dinner. My daughter's allowed to go upset,
to be upset, period. But if I picture that tennis court,

(13:38):
the reason that's helpful is I now picture my kid.
You never put me to bed. I'm so upset. It's
actually really powerful. How many people have told me it's true.
It's like somehow those feelings in her body start to
come out and start to come to my side of
the court, and all of a sudden, they're on my side,
and I'm saying things like don't you want me to
be happy? Or fine? All cancel? And actually, the interesting

(13:59):
thing is, I'm not even doing that for my daughter
at this point. That's why it's not guilty. I'm doing
that to rid myself of this feeling that wasn't even
mine in the first place. And you can't even empathize
because you can only empathize with someone's feeling when it's
their feeling. As soon as you've made it your own,
you're playing your own game. So if we go through

(14:21):
the scenario and I do this with so many women,
I'm like, okay, so you're on this core. I want
you to literally imagine doing this, and if anyone's listening,
you can't see me. I'm putting my hands by my
chest and I'm like pushing it out the visual matters
like my kid's sadness. I am pushing it out of
my body and I'm giving it back to them. I'm
not pushing it away, and I'm not doing it violently.
I'm just kind of giving it back to its rightful owner. Okay,

(14:43):
because then I can actually empathize, because once it's back
in her body, I can say, Oh, you really wish
it was me putting you to bed and not Daddy.
I get that, Yeah, I really wish it was you. Listen,
this is one of those nights. I'm going to dinner
with my friends. It's okay. If it feels hard. You're
safe with it. Dad. You're allowed to be upset. I
will see you in the morning. Now, when I do

(15:05):
that again, my child has never said to me have
a great dinner, mom, or that was sturdy leadership, or
you use that guilt tennis image, didn't you? That have
never happened. They keep crying again. We're not our good interventions.
They're just simply not rewarded by kids calm behavior, and
the sooner we realize that you know the better, even

(15:26):
though we keep wanting it me to to be true.
And now I go out and the truth is my
walk to dinner. I feel a little uneasy. Oh my,
I'm so guilty. But I say, Becky, that's not guilt.
I've actually literally not guilt. I am acting in alignment
with my values. That is my daughter's distress, and actually
my job is to help her build tolerance for distress.
And I actually just did that while I kept my

(15:50):
dinner plan, because I know if I canceled, you think
I'm not resentful of my daughter and not screaming her
head off at the time she asked for a second
book at bedtime, because I wish I was at dinner
at my friend in the first place.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
And I know you've also said that women in particular
feel a pressure because there's always been this idea that
women should have a maternal instinct, and you talk about
parenting being a skill as much as the kids needing
these skills as they're growing up, and women have this
unfair pressure of well, it's natural to you.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
I mean, I think that that's the thing when I
became a mom that was so personally striking. This idea
of maternal instinct I think has had a profound impact
on our culture, right because I'm not saying there's nothing
about parenting that's instinctual. I think we instinctually love our kid,
or there's certain moments that come naturally, but yet when
your kid is having a grocery store milldown and the

(16:42):
mom you're trying to become friends with is kind of
watching you in the store right when your kid says,
I hate you, You're the worst parent in the world.
When your kid is delaying I don't know, at bedtime,
or brushing their teeth, when your kid lies to your face,
I don't take money, and you like see the nestcam
of them taking money. We're saying, we think our instinct
is going to lead to good decisions. Now, most people

(17:04):
I know would say, my instinct is telling me to
scream in my child's face. You know why, because you're
a parent. Probably screamed in your face because they didn't
have the resources they need. Right and over and over,
I'd be meeting parents. It was so interesting, and it
was mostly moms who would tell me always some version
of the same story. They'd come into live event. They'd
say it's something nice, and then they would unload, and
it was kind of some version of I go to

(17:26):
bed feeling awful about myself. I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm yelling at my kids all the time. I feel
like I'm a monster. I feel like I'm messing my
kids up forever, right, And then I would kind of
contain the situation. I'd listen, and then I'd dig in
because I always want to know when someone's struggling so much,
what resources do they have, And I'd always hear the
same thing, resources, Like they shouldn't be this hard. It

(17:48):
shouldn't be this hard. I should be able to figure
this out on my own. I don't know, It's just
it was striking if I think about the best athletes
in the world, even the ones who have amazing athletic instinct, right,
I don't know, Steph Curry, Lebron James, Like, I'm pretty
sure they had a lot of coaching. Yeah, I'm pretty
sure they weren't. Like, coaching's not for me. I should

(18:09):
be able to figure out this basketball thing on my own.
It's really interesting. I think people in almost every other
field they take pride in coaching. I even think the
best CEOs. Now it's almost embarrassing if you don't have
an executive coach and you don't just get your advice
on Instagram, like you really have knowledge and learning and
you dig in and you feel good about it. And

(18:29):
so yeah, if something is supposed to be done by
pure instinct. Then the only explanation for why you're struggling
is that you're broken. Yeah, and I feel very passionately
about changing that narrative.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, and I believe you are. And to that point
that you're saying, I mean, I had the fortune of
interviewing Kobe Bryant before he tragically passed away around three
months before, and he was so clear about the fact
that he just put in more time. So he was
exactly what you're saying. It's reaffirming your point. He was
actually doing double the coaching that everyone else was, So

(19:04):
he was in the gym before everyone got in the gym.
Then he did what everyone else was doing in the gym,
and then he'd go home and work out again. And
so you've got this person investing in doubling down into coaching,
as opposed to saying, oh, I'm actually naturally gifted and
I don't really need that. Even after winning two, three, four,
and then eventually five championships. I wanted to ask you
about that point because you talk about this idea of

(19:27):
parents not being perfect yes, but being good at repairing yes,
which I really really value as an idea because I
do think we all want to get it perfect the
first time, and that's our instinct, and like you said,
the natural instinct, even though we want to get it
perfect as a desire, the natural instinct in any of
those circumstances is to act out, is to shout, scream yell, instruct, direct, dictate,

(19:53):
And you gave a few really great anecdotal examples there,
but very real ones as well. Talk to me about
what and instinctively do, so that we just normalize the
fact that it's okay, because no one's going to get
it right the first time, and then talk to me
about how you've repaired that. Given one of those types
of scenarios of going to Aunt Sally's or screaming in

(20:14):
the playground or.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Great repair, without a doubt, is the most important parenting strategy.
I would say repair is the most important relationship strategy,
because I think everything we talk about a good inside
is as relevant in a partnership or at work with
yourself any relationship. So let's start with this desire to
be perfect. I think this is especially true with moms.
I don't hear it as much from dads, honestly, and
I think this goes back to a lot of gender roles.

(20:37):
I think a lot of us are socialized to be
good girls, which I now put in quotes because I
realize being a good girl just means being trained to
gaze out and notice what everyone in the world wants
from you, and to become as distant as possible from
gazing in and noticing what you might want for yourself.
That's really what it means. How can I please do? Yeah?

(20:59):
How can I please? How can I meet your need?
Before you even have a need? I notice your twitching
and you're about to get mad. I also know you
kind of like this kind of drink, so I'm going
to go make you a nice tea and bring it
to you.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Right.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
You're looking everywhere and meeting everyone's needs all the time, right,
And I think a lot of girls they learned that
that's where their value was, and I think that's where
they therefore they feel safest. Right, it's when I'm getting
it right for everyone. Yes, So now we have parenting, right?
I Mean people often ask me like, is there a

(21:29):
perfect parent? Are you a perfect parent? I am definitely
not a perfect parent. There's no such thing as a
perfect parent, and I just even want to say, I
don't even think it would be a good thing for
a kid to have a perfect parent, because the dynamic
you establish with your kid, the relationship with your kid,
is the foundation for every relationship they'll have after that.

(21:50):
And I know it's heavy, but it's true. So I'll
say it. The nature of a relationship you develop with
your kid is also going to impact two they're even
attracted to in adulthood because we're attracted to what feels
like home, right for better or for worse, as a
natural attraction. So I don't think any of us think
it's adaptive for a kid to go into the teen

(22:12):
adult years, like, who is that person out there who's
perfectly attuned to my needs all the time? Like, I'm
sure you and your wife, that's not the way your
relationship works. Definitely not me and my husband.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Right.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
The best it gets is someone attunes to your needs
a lot of the time, and they take ownership when
they don't and don't gaslight you and don't kind of
throw you under the bus or blame you for their reaction,
and they repair. And so if we like play that
out right, Yes we are, we're humans, not robots. We

(22:43):
have our own emotional life, our own triggers, and whether
it's Aunt Sally's party, or being lied to or even
you know, it's like the end of the night. I
think a classic one. I know this happens for me,
Oh chicken for dinner. This is disgusting, and it's like
everything you've done for the day, and all the moments
when you fell visible and the other things that happen
that have nothing to do with your kid, it all

(23:05):
completely overflows in your bucket of difficult moments I've had
to hold together, and you explode at your kid. You're
so ungrateful. You know what do you mean? Kids around
the world would be you know, whatever we say, we
lecture you're spoiled, and it comes out often in a
voice that's legitimately scary, and it's scary in part because
our kids need us to survive. So they're like, wait, parent,

(23:28):
I need for survival just became scary parent I'm distant from.
It's a lot to manage. So that I would just
say is the rupture moment. And I know this is
the moment. People listening are like, Yeah, that's it. I'm
a monster. I've messed up my kid Forever. Those are
two different things. Having a rupture moment is not who
you are, and it's not your future, and it does
not dictate your entire relationship. Yelling at kids messes kids

(23:52):
up far less than yelling at kids and not repairing
after you've yelled. It's actually the not repairing that's really hard,
because then kids are left alone with this intense set
of feelings. They're confused and they have to figure out,
how do I feel safe again? What do I do
to move on? And if kids aren't given a story
by us to repair, they often make up a story,

(24:13):
and it's often a story of self blame, because that's
the only thing they have. I'm a bad kid, must
be my fault. When you repair with your kid, you
actually get to do something magical. I always tell parents,
you actually get to rewrite the ending of that chapter,
because instead of that one chapter of your kid's book
being I complained about dinner and unleashed the scary voice

(24:35):
from my parent, and I went to my room and
I felt alone and I felt really shaky. If you
picture that as the ending of a chapter, you then
get to go in and write. And then my mom
came in and she said, I'm sorry. I yelled. It's
never your fault when I yell. I'm working on managing
my feelings, so I respond more calmly, even when I'm frustrated.

(24:59):
I love you. It actually changes the way the memory
lives in their.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Body those simple words that approach.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Memory is an event and every other time you've remembered
that event, which is why something like therapy is helpful.
So interesting. Why is there to be helpful? My childhood
didn't change, but remembering certain things in the context of
a new relationship changes the way the original memory lives
in your body. You change the story around the memory. Yes,

(25:27):
and so every time you repair, whether it was a
quick hey, I'm sorry, let me try that again. I'm
sorry for yelling, you know at you earlier, or hey,
I listened to those podcast I heard a couple of things,
and I think there were a lot of years I
just sent you to your room. I think there were
a lot of years I never heard your side of
the story, and I'm guessing that just felt really bad.

(25:48):
I'm sorry, And look, we definitely might need time to
cool off when things are hot, but I'm going to
really try to come to you and better understand instead
of judge, and I want you to know I care
about that. I mean the way that lands in someone's
body to reopen a file and kind of give it
a different ending. Yeah, I believe it's the most powerful
thing we can do.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, even if they don't react well in the moment.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yes, And this is what I want to undo, the fantasy,
Like I go to my teenage son and I'm like,
I'm so prepared. And you know, when I picture my
teenage son saying Mom, I've been waiting for you to
say no, my teenage son is going to roll his
eyes and be like, you're being so weird, get out
of my room. But in a way, a lot of us,

(26:33):
when we hear something emotionally resonant in our best kind
of moments, we say to someone else, I just need
to digest this. Yes, that's what most kids are saying,
whether it's a TODLD they're saying I need a snack,
or it's my teenager saying you're being weird, good out
of my room. I really think they're saying that was
a lot and I actually just need to kind of
push it away for a moment so I can ingest
it in my own time. So I would say, don't

(26:55):
take the bait, trust that it mattered, move on, don't
force the conversation. And I have a feeling you'll see
evidence of the impact later.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, the point about repairing really lands well because I
was thinking about when we were all learning how to drive,
it was inevitable that at some point we'd have an accident.
So you wanted to be mindful. You didn't want to
be neglectful when you were a driver and when you
were trained. I've had car accidents, and I think I'm
a pretty good driver. I'm assuming with your nodding right
there with you, you've had a car accident. My wife said,
car accidents, thankfully, nothing too dangerous for any of us

(27:26):
and anyone I know. But the reality is you're going
to have some sort of an accident, and the biggest
mistake you can make is to not repair your car
when you have an accident and just keep driving that
car around and getting into more accidents. And so that
lands really, really well, because it would be really strange
if someone had told me that I was never allowed
to scratch my alloys or a rim, or a hub

(27:48):
cap or a side of my car, and I had
to drive with that level of I would probably have
an accident simply because I was overthinking the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
That's right, Or stay in your room all day.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, you won't even go out, right, I.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
Mean, a life worth living has inherent risk, right, And
so yeah, I think that's a really good metaphor. You're
going to make mistakes as a parent, and if you
see that as kind of a feature, not a bug,
then then you can change the focus to Okay, what now.
And look, while we're talking about repair, I think it's
important to get in that one of the biggest things

(28:23):
that gets in our way of repairing with our kid
is that most of us haven't learned to repair with ourselves.
Because what happens is we do this thing. I yell
at my kid, I say they're spoiled, brat whatever happens
in the kitchen. When my son simply says, maybe it's
even just chicken for dinner again, but it's just enough
for you know, it feels like he's telling me I'm
a bad mom, you know, or something like that. So

(28:43):
I've done this thing. And for so many people, they
might have someone in their life or like this person
is so stubborn they never apologize, they're so cold hearted.
I see it a little differently. I tend to use
like a most generous interpretation MGI perspective. I think people
who really don't apologize, they've a really hard time separating
identity from behavior. And that idea of separating who we

(29:04):
are from what we do, identity from behavior is like
a core principle, a good inside, and a core way
we teach parents to see themselves and their kids right.
It's the difference between I yelled and I'm a monster
versus I am a good parent who had a moment
I'm really not proud of. And I actually find doing
that with our hands really powerful because you can see

(29:24):
the difference. I'm a good parent identity one hand, who
did something I'm not proud of another hand, Versus I yelled,
I'm a monster, something's wrong with me. It's an immediate
there's no separation. We can't repair from this place. We
can't even function from this place. The saddest thing is
we can't learn from this place. It's shame. Right. Shame
is an animal defense freeze response. We all should know.

(29:47):
Right when you are frozen, you can't make movement. And
so people who don't apologize. They usually have to hold
this thing they did so far away from them they
can't even look at it because it feels so eviscerating
to their identity. So I actually think a first step
for repair, I just yelled at my kid. I mean,
very practically, for me, if I'm in some shame spiral,

(30:09):
I sit somewhere quiets, often my bathroom, I close the door,
send the toilet, I put in my hand, in my heart,
put my feet on the ground, and I do say
to myself a bunch of times five, ten, sometimes twenty, Okay, Becky,
I made a mistake. I'm a good parent who did
something I'm not proud of. Even I'm a good parent
who yelled like I'm a good parent who forces us

(30:29):
as a sentence structure to separate those two things. And
then it's interesting, I'm in a place where I can
think about it more. Also, even before repair with my kid,
what was going on. I had a really bad day.
I honestly I haven't worked out in a while. I
know that's something I need to do for myself. I
was really frustrated from work, and I honestly just did
not take a moment, and my lobby to sit down

(30:50):
and talk to myself about it. And you know what,
I was probably just a ticking time Bob. I need
to a couple things. I need to look at my
calendar and do something for me. I need to take
some deep breast in the middle of the day. I
need to sit in my lobby before I go upstairs
and say, what was the most stressful part of my day.
Let me write about it, Let me do something to
manage my emotions. The only reason I can go through
that learning process is actually because I've been able to

(31:13):
separate what I did from who I was, and now
I can go to my son or my daughter, whoever
it isn't actually give them a repair. And the other
thing is when we don't repair with ourselves, we do
weird repairs with our kids, and they're not repairs. They're
either I'm sorry I yelled, but if you didn't complain
about dinner, it wouldn't have happened. That is not a repair.
Or we say something like I'm sorry, I yelled, It's okay, right,

(31:35):
it's okay, right, you forgive me, Like we ask our
kid to do our job for us, like I picture
like this five year old kid is like you're you're
asking me to take care of your emotions after you
yelled at me. That is not a relationship pattern we
want to establish. Right.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
That resonates so strongly. I feel like if you don't
go back and do the separation of the identity and
behavior on your own, the kid actually just goes I'm
just not going to say how I feel around mom
and dad or mom's just angry or dad's just mad
or whatever, and then that becomes the label. Whereas when
you actually get to go up to them and say, hey,
I had a really tough day at work today, that

(32:13):
doesn't excuse how I behaved with you. Yeah, I'm really
sorry about it, and you know yeah, and then you
know that kind of ability to even get them to
have some context without making it their fault. I think
what you're saying, when we repair wrongly, we may give
them the context, but make it their fault. Like, hey,
I had a really tough day today, So if you
didn't say chicken wasn't terrible, I would have been fine.

(32:35):
So I hope you understand I had a bad day.
And it's like, oh, well wait a minute, Like that's
too much for me to handle, right, now.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
That's exactly right. And the thing that always like creeps
me out in a good way because it makes me
not do this is I picture my son I don't
know now he's thirty forty. Let's say he's partnered in
a matter's house visiting and he like screams at his
partner I don't know, in a nasty way, and then
I hear him say, look, I'm sorry I yelled, but
if you had remembered toilet paper like I asked you,

(33:01):
I wouldn't have yelled. I'd be like, ooh, this feels
like I don't want to be here it this is
a bad situation. But if if I've always repaired in
his childhood by saying, I'm sorry I did a bad thing,
but look, at the end of the day, your behavior
caused me to do that thing, why would I be
surprised that that's what he takes into the world. Right?

(33:23):
And then I just want to answer a question that's
I know, not actively being asked, but it comes up
every time because my parents are like, but can't my
kid ask if we could have a different dinner in
a nicer way, or Okay, maybe I didn't yell because
my kid didn't listen about putting on his shoes, But
if my kid put on his shoes, it wouldn't have happened.
Help me reconcile, separate the two things. I would say,
do a real repair and then give yourself very practically,

(33:45):
like twenty four hours, have a very different conversation, which
might be, Look, there's gonna be some days you don't
like dinner. Is there a way you could tell me
you don't like dinner that's equally as true for you
as it is respectful for someone else. Or my four
year old won't put on his shoes or her shoes.
Twenty four hours later, after I say sorry, hey, mornings
have been really tough for both of us, I wonder

(34:06):
if there's anything we can think about together that would
make putting on shoes easier. I totally understand that's realistic,
but just don't don't collapse them together.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, that's the point. Yeah. Usually again, we do extremes.
We either disappear and hope then tomorrow is a new day,
which doesn't work, or we try and do everything in
that first go at it and then then it collapses
too before we dive into the next moment. Let's hear
from our sponsors. Thanks for taking a moment for that.
Now back to the discussion. You've said this before, which

(34:38):
I really like this idea of they're not giving me
a hard time, they're having a hard time. Yes, And
that differentiate is really powerful because I think our languages
they're giving me a hard time.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah. I mean, look, I'm sure you think about this
in so many other contexts and it's the same as parenting.
But to me, when you're in conflict with anybody, you
have one of two mindsets. Okay, the first mindset, and
let's say it's us where it's like I'm on one
side of the table and Jay is on the other
side of the table, and I'm just looking at you

(35:10):
like you are the problem, and we wouldn't have a
problem if you just came to my side and did
something more like me.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Right.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
The other mindset is different. Instead of me against you,
where you're the problem, it's me and you on the
same side of the table against a problem. I actually
think in business, in marriage, with your in laws, definitely
with your kids, you literally shouldn't have a conversation about
something conflictual until you can get yourself in the me

(35:39):
and this person against a problem mindset. My kid is
giving me a hard time. Is such a good example
of me against you. My kid is having a hard time?
Is me and you against a problem? And I love
strategies and scripts. I'm sure we'll get into more of them.
I love all those things, but they all fall flat
at the end of the day if you're not operating
in an effective mindset. And to me, the most important

(36:01):
thing a parent can do when they're in a tricky
situation with their kid, Oh, mornings are so tough. My
kid is giving me a hard time. They won't get
out the door. Oh I hear that phrase, giving me
a hard time. How can I get into a me
and my kid against a problem, me and my kid
on the same team perspective, because then I can think
about it very differently. What might be getting in the
way my kid getting out the door. I guess they're

(36:21):
going to school, maybe getting out the door. They're a
smart kid. They kind of know as soon as they
put their shoes on, they're saying bye to daddy. Maybe
that's it, and all of a sudden something happens when
you get in the same team mindset. I think we
always love our kids. But when we're in an opposite
team mindset. Nobody likes to say this, but we stop
liking them in the moment, and there is nothing that

(36:43):
is a strategy that will matter more than the fact
that your kid just feels that from you. When we're
on the same team, like something amazing happens. You start
liking your kid again. Now it's like a problem to
solve together and everything becomes more effective from there.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
What's been the hardest situation for you where you feel
like you've just been in that zone where you yelled
or you didn't like them, or you were just reparently,
what was the hardest for you personally that took you
the most time to get back to this?

Speaker 1 (37:13):
I mean, it happens. I just want to say, I
feel like parenting is more like yoga than anything else.
Like people who are really into yoga are like, it's
it's the practice, Like there's no destination. So I'm happy
to share some stories and I will, but I don't
want anyone to think like, oh, that was then and
this is now, right, Like this is a constant evolving
muscle and our kids are always changing. Right, So you know,

(37:35):
one of my kids, my you know my deeply feeling kid,
where she feels things more intensely. The explosions are more intense,
and there're gonna be huge reactions to things that seem
small on the surface. Going to a birthday party, not
having the chair she wants, not watching a family movie
that everyone else wants to watch. Right, And it can
feel in the time like why are you being so difficult?

(37:57):
Right versus hold on, she's having a hard time with something.
By the way, I want to say, that doesn't mean
I need to cater to that, Like, it's not like
she doesn't want to sit in this chair, so hey,
everyone get up so your sister can always have the
chair she wants, or oh, we're gonna watch the movie
she wants. I actually don't believe in that. But again,
if that's the boundary part over here, what can be hard? Yeah,

(38:19):
it's getting back to hold on, she's a good kid
who's having a hard time. I think that phrase to
me that I've put out in the world is like
one of the most important phrases just to like practice
at random times in your head. I have a good
kid who's having a hard time. It becomes like a
little song.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
In the same way as I'm a good parent who's
having a hard time.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
I am, you know, And then I mean I think
I have a kid who's getting older, who's a teen.
I mean it's tricky. You feel you feel it checked
it. It feels like it's on their time schedule. Like I
want to talk to my kid all day, and you know,
he doesn't. He's doing his things, he's with his friends.
And then it's nine forty five and I'm actually tired
and maybe I'll get to bed early, and he's like, mom,
I want to talk. And you know, my first reaction

(38:59):
is a little like a day and yet like what like, oh,
now that you want to talk, like you know, and
I kind of want to retaliate or something right. And
then I try to take a deep breath on my
good days and say, this is ado lescence. His job
is to separate from me. He's trying to figure that out.
It's messy. He is supposed to be exploring the world,

(39:21):
but I always think without a lessonce, like, they need
to be explorers, not nomads. But when we take them
so personally and then refuse to connect, we're actually just
leaving them as nomads, which is someone without a homebase.
It's great, he's a teen, he's doing his job. Let
me take a deep breath. I have five minutes. Let
me go to his room.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
Right.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
I think that's what it kind of like looks like
in real life.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah, if I as a dad, when I have a child,
if they came up to me and they really were
excited about something, they wanted to share it, and I
was busy with worker and I said, hey, I just
can't talk about that right now. Yeah, well, what impact
does that happen?

Speaker 1 (39:54):
First of all, I think there's some I don't know,
narrative out there, like as a parent, we should be
some type of always murder or you're in the middle
of a project, I'm making this up. You're like, you're
you know, we're similar, Like you have some idea, I
gotta get it down and it's gonna whatever it is.
You know, you're creating something, you're working on something. A
good parent is someone who drops that at every second

(40:17):
to look at my kid's art project. I don't know
whatever it is, I don't buy it. I don't buy it.
No do I think a good parent is someone who
would never do that. Obviously not Again, there's a middle ground.
I think, like most relationships, it's about the how can't
you see I'm working? This is ridiculous. This is a
lego tower. It's kind of stupid. I have a big job.
I wouldn't recommend that. That's not gonna feel good. Okay,

(40:40):
But if that's one extreme and the dropping you know
all the time is the other, I think what's in
the middle, like kind of the sturdiness we talk about
is Wow, it looks like you're working on something really interesting.
I really want to see it.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
You know.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
It's crazy. I'm working on something really interesting and I
need five minutes to finish it. I'm gonna need those
five minutes actually in silence, which is gonna be a
little annoying. I'm gonna ask you to leave my office
and close the door, and I promise you right after that,
I'm gonna come and I'm not gonna have my phone,
and I want to see this thing you built and
hear all about it. There's this kind of almost washer

(41:12):
and repeat that. I think in these moments where boundaries
and empathy and connection there, they're really not in either
or So many models of parenting have been one or
the other, and I think at good inside. We bring
them together and I think, you know, I don't know.
I think about people work in an office and they
want to talk to their CEO, and that's what you
want to hear from something. I actually don't want a

(41:32):
CEO all the times, like I'm gonna drop everything of course, right.
Or you're on a plane, right and you know you
want to visit the pilot with you know, with your
kid or something, right and they're getting the plane ready.
You don't want a pilot who they're getting everything ready.
They're like sure, come on in. You're like, were you
just fixing that engine? Like me, you know, Hey, I'm

(41:52):
in the middle of something. This is really important. I
see your interests. That's awesome. I'll let you know when
it's ready and then we'll do that. That combination boundaries empathy,
to me, that's always magic.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yeah, it was. It was funny. I was thinking. I
was thinking of my kid coming running up to me
and like, go away, I've got to interview doctor doctor
Kennedy on the podcast How to Be a Good Parent.
Like I was like, that's the no. And I appreciate
that because that to me is just and I'm that's
really reaffirming. To hear, because I feel like that's just
having good, healthy adult conversations. That's what it is, and
it's giving context and it's providing a perspective on why

(42:25):
and what and where we're at. It's not just like, hell,
don't have time right now, I'm doing something really important.
There's there's a validation of them, but there's a validation
of yourself. And again, they may not react well to that.
They may when you come back downstairs and I'm not
doing anymore, right, like that's right, I don't care anymore,
Like right it was, it's done. It's broken, Like.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
That's right, it's right. Or again, like when I set
some of the boundaries I feel really proud of with
my kid. Take a different example, right, like my kid
is watching TV and the show is over, and I
told them they could watch that one episode and it's over,
and I have the remote, because that's the thing. It's like, really,
our kid with the remote, and we're surprised, we have
power struggles. They shouldn't have the remote, right, because of

(43:05):
course they're gonna want to watch more. They are good
kids who are addicted to TV like the rest of us.
But let's say it's at the end, and my kid's
like one more, one more. Maybe for whatever reason, I've
decided it's really over tonight. Okay, this is like sturdy
leadership and action.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
I might say.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Look, I get it. It's so hard to stop watching TV. Honestly,
it's hard for me too. It's kind of designed to
feel like it's not enough. You want to watch the
next episode something like that, or hey, you wish you
could watch another one. Keep it simple, next part and
TV time is over. I actually have the remote. I'm
gonna turn it off.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
That's annoying. If I do that in my house, I fear,
and it's a fear that people hearing me think I
do that, and my kids like stand up in applause
and they're like, that was a plus parenting from I'm
so lucky to have you. You're keeping me safe from technology,
and you're validating my feelings. That is never that has
never happened one time. Actually, what's important for parents to

(43:55):
know when you set a true boundary. I'm happy to
talk about this because I think people get boundaries all
wrong what they are. But when you set a true boundary,
especially if your kid isn't used to it your kid
always responds in the same way a tantrum every time.
That is your big reward as a parent, Like you're like,
I just did the thing, and this is the next thing,
Like where's where is the confetti?

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (44:18):
Confetti? Okay. But if you actually know that your kid's
tantrum is a sign that you did actually set a
true boundary, you become a lot less reactive to it,
because unconsciously we think our kids tantrum is a sign
we're doing a bad job as a parent. Our kid's
tantrum is often a sign we set a boundary and

(44:38):
they're upset about it, which then means we can just
do the next part of a job. We can validate. Oh,
I know you wish you were an adult and could
decide whatever number of TV shows you wanted to watch.
But you better bet even as I'm saying that I'm
not turning on the TV again, I'm not. That's not happening. Boundary,
they get upset, We can validate. We hold the boundary

(44:59):
kind of over and over.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
And where's any emotion? Is any hugging? Is there? Like affection?

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah? I think everyone's kid is different. One of my
kids might really want that oh, I know it's stinks,
come here, you know, And I'm hugging, right, because that's
what happens in the best relationships, right where if I
I don't know, if I was making not so good
decisions for myself even as an adult, I don't know.
I'm at a party and like seeing you and I'm like, Jay,

(45:27):
I hate you. Your podcast stinks. And my husband was there,
I would hope he'd like pick me up and carry
me out and fit with me in a room, not
because that's something he did to me, because it was
something he would do for me. And then maybe even
there I'd be like I had a bad day and
he'd be like, I know you had a rough time
at Jay's party. I was not your best, right, So yeah,
maybe I'm hugging. Another one of my kids would be like,

(45:49):
get away from me, and I might just kind of
stay where I am and say nothing because my com
presence is the version of connection she might want. Right.
So I think that's where what I really love about
good inside and what I see from our members is there,
Like I love that they've taken the principles and then
they take their unique knowledge, their unique values, their unique

(46:12):
awareness of what's happening, and they apply it in a
way that feels totally them.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah. I agree. I think the challenge we've created is
that we think effective communication is when you get the
perfect reaction. Yes, And I don't think that's true as
a parent, or as an adult, or in any capacity,
because you could communicate something really exceptionally effectively and the

(46:38):
reaction is not the direct response to whether you communicate
it effectively or not. We think if the kid did
applaud or there was confetti, or day ten around and said, okay, mam,
I go to bed, we think that's a good day. Right.
So it's almost this idea of and this again applies
to marriage too. You almost feel like when the person's
just responding to saying you're amazing, well done, or even

(46:59):
if it's that forward, the idea of I'm doing everything
you tell me to we see as a sign of
good communication.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
I see something very similar with so many parents, and
I think this is maybe the biggest thing we love
to help shift. We use our kid's behavior or their
reactions as a barometer of whether we're a good parent,
and we lose ourselves in the process because we're so
busy gazing out versus gazing in. What's a version of

(47:28):
gazing in? Is this a decision I believe in? Do
I feel like I'm actually being a good leader? Do
I feel like this is a decision maybe not only
for today, but for you know, every once in a
while when we have the energy, a decision that really
helps our kid become the kind of teen an adult
we'd want them to be.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
You know.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
So I heard this story from a parent the other day.
It was really interesting. It was kind of this classic
public meltdown right birthday party. Her kid only wanted to
sit next to the birthday party kid. I get this,
It's a big thing. Sitting next to the birthday party
kid is a big deal. Well, pizza time came, because
everyone has pizza their birthday parties. Our kid had to
go to the bathroom, and she's like this is this

(48:08):
is not going to be good because I know after
the bathroom that seat next to my kid would elbow.
That's going to be gone. It was gone, Okay, major
public mouthdown. Oh oh you.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
Know I had to have that seat.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
I need this heat mean when I was like this
kid's birthday party, so many times I see this lack
of sturdiness. I see, I'm making up this name. No Noura,
we don't yell at other people's birthday parties. I mean
it is. It is actually so sad to witness because
kids need us to embody our authority. I would say,
I couldn't side. It's authority without aggression, which almost feels

(48:40):
like an oxymoron these days. It's rarely modeled, but it's
authority without aggression. Now, this mom was telling me this
story and she goes, you know, it's interesting. A number
of months ago, I had a family dinner. My child
had this major meltdown. It was the worst day of
my week, Like I felt like it was my biggest
parenting fail. Here's what's crazy. I knew exactly what to do.

(49:00):
I picked her up first. I pulled her to the
side and I said, oh, this is a hard time.
Look this is the birthday party. That seat's not available,
these others are. It just escalated further and further, and
as a parent, sometimes you know this is past the
point of no return. This is not not going to
be a good situation. Did I knew what to do?
I picked her up. I said, Nora, I'm picking you
up I'm carrying you to the car. We're just not
going to be able to finish this birthday party today.

(49:21):
You're a good kid having a hard time. You're not
in trouble. I'm going to help you through this. Her kid, no,
give me another chance, but she was far gone. Carried
her to the car, they drove away. They got home,
and she said to me, is it weird that that
was my parenting win? I just thought it was so beautiful.
I don't think that's weird. I don't think that's weird
at all.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
To me.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
The biggest wins we have in parenting and in so
many parts of life are when we shift from my
job is to avoid all turbulence too. I actually know
exactly what to do in the turbulence. And when you
know what to do in the turbulence, which takes practice
and learning and support and never being perfect, you actually
feel strong hunger having piloted a plane through that storm

(50:04):
and safely gotten to ground, rather than the anxiety of.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
Like I just need to avoid. Well, yeah, that's so.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
We feel so fragile when we're doing that.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
You've said before that it's not your job to make
your kids happy, which applies to what you're saying right now? Yeah,
what is a parent's job?

Speaker 1 (50:23):
So I think I want to talk about both those things.
I'll start with a parent's job, and then why not
only isn't our job to make our kids happy, but
why it's actually a really bad thing for them. The
idea of a parent's job has actually come up for
me because over and over i'd see people in my
private practice and you know now through Instagram, different things
and they'd be like, my kid is having a tantrum,
my kid is so mean to her brother, my kid

(50:43):
won't do his homework, whatever the situation was. And I'd say, Okay,
all parents want to do a good job. I know that.
But I'd always say to a parent to tell me,
what is your job? Forget if you can perform it, well,
what is your job? Every parent will look.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
At me like.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
I have no idea? Yeah, And then I think about
just offices, Like I picture someone coming to their job
the first day and their boss saying, do a good job,
and the person saying, but but I don't have a
job description. By the way, I also don't even know
what that dude does over there. I kind of need
to know what that person's lane is I definitely need
to know what my job is if I'm going to
do it well. So I think any parent listening is like,

(51:20):
it's true, what is my job? If you don't know,
then there's im men's clarity forget trying to do it well.
We just have to have the clarity in the foundation. Absolutely,
So I think a parent always has two jobs. It's
almost every situation, and I'll define one of them which
you didn't get to yet. So setting boundaries invalidating your
kid's emotions, and they go hand in hand. Setting boundaries

(51:41):
is widely misunderstood. I'll share what my definition of boundaries are,
which is as applicable to adults as it is a kid.
Boundaries are something you tell someone you will do and
they require the other person to do nothing. We often say,
this person doesn't respect my boundaries to me with respect.

(52:02):
It's often assigned that someone has an inaccurate definition of
a boundary because you're giving all your power to the
other person. So I often ask a parent, well, what
do you mean your kid isn't listening? Yeah, I live
in New York City. This is like my kid and
I always say when we go into the elevator, buttons,
don't press the buttons, don't press all the buttons. And
then my kid goes and presses all the buttons. He
does not respect my boundaries. He has a listening problem. Now,

(52:26):
if you have a kid like one of my kids,
who is zero percent people pleasing, it's going to take
a little bit longer than other kids to manage urges. Okay,
A boundary isn't don't press the button. Is that something
i'm telling my kid I will do?

Speaker 2 (52:40):
No?

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Does it require my kid to do nothing? No, I'm
giving all of my power to my four year old.
A boundary would be saying, hey, when we go into
the elevator, I'm going to be between you and the buttons.
I know it's fun to press the buttons, sweetish, just
not something i'm going to allow. And yep, even if
you lunch for it, I'm going to block you. Yet,
It's true. It's like you got to get like there,
like karate, Like there's some moves a parent I'll teach

(53:04):
you now remarkably like kind of you know, some interesting
dance moves going on. But that's a boundary. It's not
something i'm doing to my kid. I'm doing it for him.
So I don't let him feel like an out of
control kid. And this is important, so I don't let
myself get so frustrated that I end up yelling random
punishments I have no intention of keeping anyway, no dessert tonight,

(53:24):
And then I'm like, actually, you can have dessert. I
don't even care. I don't might to have a tantrum,
like this is what we do, so that's part of
our job setting true boundaries. Another great example of this,
my kid takes the iPad when it's not iPad time.
First thing to a question. I'm like how, They're like,
what do you mean? How he just takes it if
it's not iPad time? Why does your kid even have

(53:44):
access to where the iPad is? A boundary without words
would be what I do. It's not, hey, don't touch
the iPad in the kitchen. I'm sorry. I'm just gonna
speak for myself. If my phone is in a room
and someone tells me not to look at it, yeah, yeah,
I'm just not that. I don't have a great hit rate there.
Those things are very addictive, okay, and I have more
self control than my five year old, right. A boundary

(54:06):
would be saying, hey, from now on. Just so you know,
the iPad is going to completely out of reach, out
of sight. It's not because I don't trust you. It's
because those things are actually built to draw your whole
body to them. It really wasn't fair for me to
put it somewhere and ask you not to get it.
So it's just going to be away until it's iPad time.
When it's over, it will shut off and then I'll
put it back in that place. Done. That's part of

(54:28):
our job. The other part of our job is connecting
to our kids feelings, is seeing our kids feelings as
real while not allowing those feelings to overpower us. That
is so important. People think validating a kid's emotions means
agreeing with their emotions. It does not. My kid is

(54:49):
having a grilled cheese. They always like it cut into rectangles.
These things matter, and I cut into rectangles, and today
is the day. If the kids like I needed a try,
I go, oh right, whatever it is now to me,
I know intellection like this feels crazy. I actually thought
about how to cut it in a rectangle. That's how
you usually like it. But I don't have to agree.

(55:11):
Who knows what this is really about? Validation would just
be you really wish it was in a triangle today. Oh,
this feels really bad. Oh it feels like the girl
cheese isn't even gonna be yummy when it's cutting this way.
People often think if I do that, that means I'm
making a new girl cheese. Depending on the day, if
I want to, maybe I will, but maybe I won't
because I'm holding the boundary. But validation is simply seeing

(55:34):
someone else's experience as real for them. And I think
when you think about those two jobs, boundaries and validation,
the reason they're so important is I kind of profoundly
believe that kids are always asking two questions, am I safe?
And our boundaries answer that? And am I real? Because
kids have such intense feelings. I mean, you and I

(55:54):
have intense feelings. And the thing about feelings that's so
fascinating is when you fall and skin your knee, you
see blood, You're like, oh, that's painful, But then you
often have some representation of how it's real. Well, I'm
bleeding or I have a black and blue. Feelings are
very unique. They are such visceral sensations coursing through your

(56:17):
body without any external manifestation, and there's no blood test
to tell you you're having anger. So that's very confusing
for kids. And so part of what happens for kids
when they're feeling intense emotions is we sometimes take the
bait too much about the concrete thing they're upset about.
What they're really trying to figure out, which is really

(56:39):
the basis of confidence is are the things that I
am perceiving feeling in my body? Are those things real?
Because I have to know if they're real before I
can learn how to manage them.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
I feel like a lot of people think that their
job is to make their kids good people, or to successful, yeah,
or to do well or be able to survive the
real world when they grow up. Would you say that
am I safe and am I real? Which I love
those questions. Would you say that boundaries and validation almost
will help do all those things.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
I think that's a beautiful question because I guess I'm
zoomed in often like, well, what is my job in
the moment? And I think what you're saying is like,
what is my goal for my kid? I have those
goals for my kid. I want them to be resilient,
which really means I want them to be able to
handle challenges and know that they can bounce back from
hard things. I want them to be able to tolerate discomfort,
not avoid it or look for the quickest exit from it.

(57:32):
I want my kid to feel really at home in
their body. I want make it to feel confident, which
to me has nothing to do with feeling good about yourself.
Is actually about self trust, which is why it goes
back to feeling like your feelings are real and feeling
like you are a better perceiver of your feelings than
other people are for you. Yes, I do believe. Of course,
there's a lot more nuanced, but in general, setting boundaries,

(57:54):
staying connected to your kid by validating their emotions. There's
other things too, right, supporting them in their struggle, not rescuing,
asking yourself pretty often, am I still doing things for
my kid that they can start to learn how to
do for themselves? And how can I solely back away?
How can I set my kid up for capability not fragility.
There's other things, but in general, yes, I think boundaries

(58:16):
and validation, when paired together, they do that's what makes
for really resilient adults.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
I would agree with you and I've never heard it
that way before, and I really like that because I
think sometimes when we think, all, I want to have
kind kids, and then we're trying to model kindness for them.
But the problem is if kindness is free of boundary
and free of validation, or kindness looks like validation with
no boundaries to us, that's right, And then they're not

(58:42):
getting kindness because they don't know what self kindness looks
like and they only see the martyr or the self
sacrificed version of kindness quote unquote, and then that isn't
an accurate form of kindness. Now they think kindness means
I'll do things for people, even if they exploit abuse
or don't have any set of understanding with me. I
become a kind person. They become someone that people take

(59:02):
advantage jobs.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
I think that's really poignant, right, And look, it's true.
I think this thing people say flippantly, I'll be at
a dinner or something, you know. So I was like,
don't I just want your kids to be happy? And
I always picture my husband being like, Becky, please don't ruin.
That was just a throw away on.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
It, like this is amazing.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
I'll be a bummer you know, and then like half
the time I listened. Half the time, I'm like, actually,
it's not what you want. Everyone's like what, and I'm like, sorry,
I just can't help myself. But and again, we love
as humans. We hear someone say no, that's not true.
And then people will say you want your kids to
be unhappy. Obviously not. There's again so much in between
two extremes. But here's the thing about optimizing for happiness

(59:42):
in childhood. I firmly believe, and I've seen it over
and over that the more you optimize for happiness in childhood,
the more you actually wire for anxiety in adulthood.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Explain that.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Let's take a situation that happens often, and then I'll
zoom out. But I think the stories matter. I'm the
only one in my class can't read. My kid comes
home and says this, this is first of all, let
me just say, this is so painful, like seeing your
kid in pain. As a parent, it's so painful. I
think a lot of our instinct is let me make
my kid happy, right, and we all need to. I

(01:00:15):
will say the craziest things. I'm like, well, Bobby isn't
even good at lacrosse. At least you're good at lacrosse.
That's gonna matter more. And I'm like, why am I
throwing Bobby under the bus?

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
But a Bobby do He's like a totally nice kid.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Whatever it is, we say naughty things right, And so
I'm the only one in class who can't read right.
And so I think an image helps here a lot
because it explains why we don't want to make them happy,
and it explains resilience and anxiety out once. So the
way I think I want someone to imagine this is
your kid is kind of wandering around a garden. And
there's benches in this garden, a lot of them, and

(01:00:45):
right now they're on the bench of I'm the only
one who can't read. But I think you and I
j we know that's not really the bench. The benches
I see people who are able to do things I
can't do, or I feel jealous or I feel less then,
and the truth is that is a bench you will
sit on at various times for the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Yeah, that feeling of everyone else can read better than
me is something like college.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Life, or maybe it's I wasn't invited to you know,
whoever's birthday party, you know what you're gonna I'm not
included in something. I don't have that popular belong the
rest of your life. So if I picture my kid
on this bench, I think as parents, we often have
two instincts. Number One, we try to we try to
convince our kid that their bench isn't their bench. That

(01:01:31):
can't be true. You can't be the only one not
reading yet, even though our kid is kind of like
telling them right, which, over time, if that's the pattern,
creates a ton of self distrust. Oh maybe other people
know how to perceive my world better than I know
how to perceive this world, all in the name of
trying to not make my kid uncomfortable, Or we see

(01:01:52):
a sunny bench on that side of the garden and
we're kind of like, just come, you're an amazing lacrosse player,
you're the fastest kid, but you're an amazing artist, and
all of that can be true. But if you think
about to me what anxiety is, I don't think anxiety
is a feeling as much as it's a running away
from a feeling. It's kind of the experience of I

(01:02:12):
don't want to be feeling the way I am right now.
So a kid is wiring up their body. They're understanding
how the world works, and they're understanding in childhood what
feelings and experiences are tolerable and what feelings and experiences
are intolerable. The latter become anxiety. So Mom, I'm the
only one who can't read, and I'm like, oh, that's

(01:02:33):
not true, or you know, I just kind of fix
it right away, or I throw them a party to
make them distracted. So what does my kid learn in
their body? I was feeling disappointed, less than and what
kids wire next is our response, and what comes next
is escape into happiness, escape into distraction. And if we

(01:02:54):
think about this bench, my kid is sitting on this bench,
and I think we're all in those moments just looking
for someone to sit down next to us. Because the
thing is, if my parent can sit on this bench
with me, it can't be as awful as.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
I think it is.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
It literally can. If they yank me from it or
try to convince me it's not true. What they're really
saying is you're feeling upset, but I I can't really
connect to the part of you that feels this way.
I can't do that. That is so scary for a
kid because they're like, I guess this really is bad.

(01:03:31):
And so in the name of kind of making our
kid happy, what we really do is we develop a
whole range of emotions our kids learn are intolerable, and
if we think about what anxiety is later on, kind
of okay, So let's say this kid later on. Again,
this is not one intervention, This would be many, many patterns. Right,

(01:03:51):
But whenever a kid is upset, optimize for happiness. Optimize
for happiness. I think the thing we realize at a
certain age it's different for everyone fourteen, eighteen, thirty, fifty,
whatever it is, is when I'm really upset about something
and something doesn't go my way, there actually isn't always
an off ramp to happy. Like when I get fired
from my job, I'm not gonna be happy in an hour.

(01:04:13):
I mean, and I mean this, I mean seriously. I guess,
maybe if I go to drugs, I'll be happy right away.
I mean maybe if I have something else. But feelings
don't work that way. Yeah, And there's no one I
don't think, who's just given me a new job. And
so by the time I get to those hard moments
in adult life, either I've developed the ability to cope
with feelings or I'm so accustomed to always expecting happiness

(01:04:40):
that ironically the way I feel my distress is even
more intense because the gap is so big. Right, It's
kind of like the light goes on of distress, and
I've always expected it to go totally off. I don't
even have a dimmer switch anymore. It's just on. Is horrible,
and I need it to go off. When I think
about what that means, I like to get parents like

(01:05:00):
an alternative. My kid says, I'm the only new in
my class who can't read. I actually think there's three
lines because I like it's great. Yeah, that can like
really embody the idea of what I say. Like, we
always say a good inside the feelings bench, sit on
the bench, sit on the bench, and you become a benchwarmer. Right,
So the first one is just I'm so glad you're

(01:05:23):
talking to me about this. This is so powerful. In marriage,
do like or work? You know, Hey, I feel like
you've been on your phone a lot, and I don't know,
I feel really disconnected. Imagine if the first thing your
partner say back is I'm so glad you're talking to
me about this What you're actually saying in a deep
attachment way is the part of you who feels this

(01:05:43):
way is attachable to me. I'm sitting with you. I'm
so glad you're talking to me about this. Yeah. They
were handing out books and everyone got chapter books and
I got this baby picture book. Oh. The second line,
ultimate confidence builder, is just I believe you. We can
talk more about that. I think those are the three
most important lines in parenting often just I believe you.

(01:06:04):
And then the third is going to feel remarkably unsophisticated,
but it's so powerful. It's just tell me more, tell
me more. Oh yeah. And then then it was like
me in a reading group of one and my friends
are on this other reading group, and the amazing thing
that happens ninety nine percent of the time. So glad
you're talking to me about this. I believe you. Tell
me more. Your kid then tells you the story. What
you're really saying is, I'm on the bench with you.

(01:06:25):
I'm not afraid of this bench. I don't need to
take you to a sunny bench. I'm here. How bad
could a bench be if I'm willing to sit on it.
I'm not gonna let us both self destruct, I am here,
and then what happens ninety nine percent of the time,
truly in this visual is your kid gets off the
bench before you do. They literally like I've seen this
a millionis of my kids are like, oh, can I
have that snack now? And I'm like, I'm sorry, what,
Oh okay? Like you just wanted to know that I

(01:06:49):
could tolerate this, that I could be with you in this,
And then what we do in their body is not
with the story, because the story is just a representation
of a feeling, disappointment, jealousy, embarrassment, whatever it is, has
a little bit more of a container and a home,
So the next time a kid feels that feeling, it's
not as panicky as as a home. And if you
think about your body as all these jars of feelings,

(01:07:10):
and this is the irony about happiness. The more jars
we have to contain different parts of our distress, the
more space there is for happiness. Anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Yeah, that's that's a beautiful visual as well. It's a
really nice thing to think about. But first, here's a
quick word from the brands that support the show. All right,
thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive back in.
Is there a part of that? Do you then address
the reading challenge or what do you do from a

(01:07:42):
product for stamp on that after that moment?

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
Love it so right? So let's say this is happening
and then you're thinking like does my kid need a
reading tutor? Do I just need to spend it right?
All of that can happen now. I think what kids
really feel in our first response, oh, the only one
who class can't read? Okay, one second, I'm calling the
reader tutor right now. In a way, the visual again
is like my kid is still alone on the bench,
like where'd.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
My mom go? Where might dad go?

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
She is like, you know, I just so I would
say again, just like stay for a bit. I think
one of the most underutilized things in parenting is time.
It's like yeah, and I think we do yeah, or
maybe we do have you know, I can call that tutor.
Why don't I just give myself to the night, let
me sleep on it, because my kid is going to
pick up on kind of my panic and my own

(01:08:28):
anxiety around it. So absolutely, if that was me, I
might think, ooh, maybe I need to sit with my kid,
Maybe I need to teach them some phonics. It doesn't
have anything to do with phonics. Are they a kid
who's kind of perfectionistic and they're just not wanting to
try because they're failing. Do they have a sibling who's
really gifted and so they've labeled themselves as the not smarket? Again,
there could be a million things that might not even

(01:08:50):
be an academic tutor. But I think when you sit
on the bench, you give yourself also a little bit
more time to tolerate it. You can access your curious
mind and then absolutely, of course I love taking action,
but it would be from like a sturdier place and
in a way that's actually going to be more helpful
to your kid.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Yeah, that's I could agree more. I mean, I know
when I've done the healthy thing or the unhealthy thing
in my marriage, Like it's really common. I remember the
other day my wife approached me and she had this
new business idea that she just shared with me randomly
in a moment. I was like, yeah, we can't do
that right now because doing this thing over here, like
we're already building this and that's gonna and she was like,

(01:09:30):
just give me an opportunity to just tell you about it. Like,
and she said, and she called me out in a
nice way, and she was just like, I literally just
wanted to share something I was really enthusiastic about. And
I was like, oh god.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
She's like sit on my enthusiasm bench for a moment.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Actually, that's all she wanted to do. And you know,
she was more than willing to hear my logical reason
as to why it is not the right time or
maybe it was or maybe I and I was And
again it was a complete reflection of my own insecurity anxiety.
I was having something else, yeah, and I was reflecting
them projecting that onto her, and she was kind enough

(01:10:05):
to call it out to me in a way that
didn't lead to an argument, which you may have in
the past, like you know, which maybe maybe five years
we've been together for twelve years, but five years ago,
maybe we would have dealt with that very differently. But
her being able to say that to me, I was like, yeah,
you're right, actually, like you just were excited to share
something with me, and I had the time I was
there with you, I was just giving you. I wasn't

(01:10:25):
even listening.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Yeah, And I just want to be clear, like I
talk a really good game this whole sitting on the
bench thing. It's it's hard. Of course I don't do
that all the time. We're all, of course rush, we
just want to fix and move on. But these ideas
and doing them a little bit more often, or trying
them one time, Yeah, it's really cool to see what happens.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
Well, I think you hit the nail on it, the
fix and move on. It's like that. We want to
remove the pain of the people we love, right We
want to be able to extract the pain in that moment,
and we see that as success for us. Help healthy
parenting or healthy relation is if you share a pain
with me, if I can take it away right now,
like magic, then I've done my job. And therefore we

(01:11:08):
call the tutor. I say, oh, hear all the logical,
realistic reasons. Don't worry about it is this fix and
move on. And what you're asking us to do is
not fix until later. It's almost like, don't move sit
right here, yeah, and then think about fixing it maybe
in twenty four hours, forty eight hours and trying to
figure out what the problem is. But it's completely the

(01:11:29):
opposite of what we think success is.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
It is and I think kind of having that idea
in your mind really matters to start the different actions,
Like wait, even if I just say it, like, we
have to try on the ideas before we believe them.
It's not my job to remove my kid's distress. It's
not my job to make my kid happy. If my
kid has a really hard day, that is not a

(01:11:53):
sign I have failed. Now, I like to take hard
ideas and turn them like so far on their head
that they become hyper. And so I'll share it here
because it might be useful because now that I work
the amount I do, right, I think about the time
that I have with my kids, right, I'm like, I
really want to make the most out of it. And
there was this period when my kids were younger. I
was like, man, I come home, it's just like a

(01:12:15):
tantrum and whining, and it's really easy. I hear this
from friends too, Like that's what I come home too.
I bust my butt to leave work early, to come
home to the tantrum, to the whining. Okay, but here's
the way to shift it, right, or to hear about
my kid being left out these painful things. I know
a lot of people, and I definitely would put you
in this category who are driven by impact, And I

(01:12:37):
actually think as humans we have a lot of needs.
I actually think impact is in need, Like I think
we need to feel impactful in the world when our
kids are perfectly happy. Oh mom, you came home from work.
Thank you. Also, I got one hundred on my test,
and three of my friends are planning parties. I was
invited to all of them, and in general just feel
in ten out of ten. Okay, that's never happened, but
let's just say that did. I would love to witness

(01:12:58):
that moment, but I promise you I'm not impactful in
my kid's life in that moment. My kid's fine, moving on.
I don't even know how many of us need anybody
when that's happening.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
But I started to do this reframe to myself, and
it was very extreme because that's the only way it
caught for me. Where I was coming home, my kid
was having that tantrum about whatever it is, the blue
cup wasn't blue enough today, I don't know something like that.
And I started to say to myself, Becky, this is
my bang for my buck moment. Literally, this is the

(01:13:30):
moment if I'm driven by impact that I want to
be home for because my kid is probably just releasing
the stress of their day or the blue cup is
too blue as a way of saying, there's so many
little things in my day, mom, that didn't go the
way I wanted and I haven't released it until now,
And if I can be there in that moment. Don't
get me wrong, I'm not going to say it's like
purely enjoyable, but oh my goodness, is it impactful and

(01:13:54):
that really really matters down the.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
Road, and it motivates you too in the moment kind of.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Does motivate me. The other thing that motivates me too
is you know, I think about this thing that happened
with one of my kids where they have these projects
in his school, and some of the projects for this
week are really good. They're like amazing. We live in
New York, They're like these amazing opportunities, and I've think
three or four of them are like everyone's like those
are the bad ones, like life. So there's how good

(01:14:20):
of a project you get? And then also they split
up kids into groups, so kids want to be at
their friends, so there's always factors how many of my
friends am I with? Did I get the good project.
First project we came out my son and it just
was the worst project with not a soul. He knew.
It was like the yeah, yeah, so this is the
moment I think, am I kid my son? Obviously he

(01:14:42):
was like really upset? Again, I don't know have kids
who were like this is a learning moment. No, he
was like really upset? Why is this the case?

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
Okay? So the phrase I've developed that I do think
is powerful just because it gets me a different mindset
is sick joy. And I'll explain what I mean. Okay,
I know what really matters life going forward is being
able to stay grounded when things don't go your way.
He might not get into his college at first choice.
He might not get the job he wants. He might,

(01:15:10):
you know, whatever it is, go buy a car and
he thinks he's getting a certain car and they don't
have that one in stock. I mean, not getting the
thing you want is It happens every day in adult life,
and I think you and I know adults who are
no more prepared to deal with those situations well than
they were when they were two. It's just adult versions
of tantrums. We can't build skills for experiences we don't have.

(01:15:31):
We can't buy that skill. We can't verbalize it, we
can't lecture it. You have to feel it. It's just
the unfortunate truth. And I think, especially if you live
a life where there's a decent amount of privilege, my
kids have, like there's a lot of ease in moments
and so look, I did not say to my son
because I don't want to. I'm not going to walk
myself into a bomb. This is a good situation. No,

(01:15:52):
I'm not going to say that, Okay, but in my head,
I really mean this. Instead of being like my urge
is to take that away, I'm like, you know what,
like I have a little sick joy like this is.
This is not going to be fun for the next
three days. First of all, he needs to borrow my
belief in him. If I can't believe he can get
through this, if I am, I calling the school right away,

(01:16:13):
you need to change. What I'm really saying to him
is I see you as a very fragile human and
kids form their identity through us. We are their mirror,
We show them who they are. I'm basically saying you
are fragile. You can only operate successfully when things go
your way ish and title man, all the things we
don't want, and so a party. The party is like,

(01:16:35):
this is so good for him. It's actually funny. There
are this is this dynamic you'll see when you if
you have kids, where people call the school a lot
and they're like, I need my kid to be with
this teacher and these three best friends. I was telling
the story to one of my friends about, you know,
the middical project, and my friend, who knows me well, goes,
did you call the school and ask him to get
the worst project with no friends?

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
And I was like, the girl, I didn't go that far. Joy.

Speaker 1 (01:17:00):
That is like not like if you really totally shift
your mindset, because how we respond, as you know, is mindset.
It's our framework. The events are the same, but when
your framework changes, everything changes. So if you're like, my
kid didn't make the soccer team, holy moly, not enjoyable,
painful for both of us. But I can really have

(01:17:20):
an impact that probably when he's twenty five, he's not
going to thank me for, but I know he's going
to function better because this happened and how I showed up,
And I think that's so amazing to hold on to
I love.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
That for two reasons. The first is that I think
we have a warped view of what care is. So
we think care means let me call, let me figure
it out, let me get you a better friend group,
let me get you a better project. So we're thinking
that that's what care looks like. And now my kid
knows I care for them, But actually what you're saying
in your words is I don't believe in you. I'm

(01:17:53):
not sure you can get through this and I can
fix everything. And so instead of them thinking, oh mom
cares about me, it's mum or dad or whoever, maybe
it can fix everything because they don't trust in me. Yes.
And then the other part why I love that answer
is because you're also not doing what I think we
often do with our family and friends. And because I'm
not a parent, I've not done it with a child.

(01:18:15):
But you're trying to teach the lesson before living the lesson, right,
So you're trying to teach the lesson where it's like
this is a good thing, and your kid's like, no,
it's not, mom, I hate this, and you're like, no,
it's a really good thing. You learn in the long
term that this is the best thing that I've happened
to you. I think it's like, what are you talking about?
And so rather than like, let's just do it for
three days, that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:35):
Like I I'm not a marathon runner. I'm not terribly
good shape. But if I was and I was running
a marathon and someone's like, this is an amazing thing.
Are you loving everything? I'd be like, I'm sorry, I'm
going to feel really good about myself the day after
the matter. I don't know that no one feels great.
I don't think climbing Mount Everest, you do it for
an experience. You bear down, you know it's going to

(01:18:56):
be really hard, and at some point you look back
and you're like, that was good for me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
Yeah, I think that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
And what you said also, that just made me have
a new thought. When we call the school, when we
do the puzzle, when we fix the friendship issue, right,
assuming it's not some really intense abuse of bullying, okay,
we might end up feeling capable, but we steal our kids' capability,
We steal it from them. I called the school, I

(01:19:24):
fixed it. My kid is now deprived of an opportunity
to watch themselves do something they thought they couldn't do.
I don't think we want to take that away from
our kids.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Yeah, my wife's talked about that all the time. She
talks about it, like when she was a kid, if
she wanted to not go to the dentist or not
go to the doctor, whatever it was, she'd get her
or even as a teenager at this point, she'd get
her older sister to make the call, and she wouldn't
want to make the call. And so as she's got older,
it's got harder and harder and harder for making these
calls or to cancel something or whatever it may have been.

(01:19:55):
And it took us so long, even probably in through
to when we fest out dating, because then she'd ask
my opinion, to ask me to do and I'd be like, no,
you do it right, because I grew up the other
way where I always did everything like paid for my
car insurance, paid for my first car, my phone bill,
so I was very comfortable doing those things. And I
was like, no, but I don't want to be seen
as a savior in this situation. I also don't want

(01:20:15):
to be seen as like I'm the hero of this
scenario because I don't want to make you dependent on
me for you know, for those things. And it was
really interesting for her. And now she'd look back and
she'd be like, oh my gosh, like I was just
never given the opportunity. That's right, do you really? And
I'm not going to Those things feel hard at the time,
and so I don't want to take that away. But yeah,

(01:20:36):
if you never get given the ability and the opportunity
later on, it's going to make you really unstable.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
Yeah, And I'm really big on helping parents teach these kids,
because again, I think there's a lot between two extremes.
One extreme is I don't think about it. Okay, Like
your kid can't make their sports practice and they have
access to a computer for an email to their coach,
so easy, just write the email, right, Okay. So extreme
is write the email to your coach, and your kid
might be like, I can't do it, right, it's not

(01:21:03):
a big deal. Write it, And over here is I'll
write it for you. I really believe in a middle ground.
Your kid is nervous, right, But there's a lot between
it's not a big deal, do it yourself, and I'll
do it for you. And I think that can start
with look, I get it. It's a new thing to
write your own email. Yes, here's what I can do.
You know, give me a couple of minutes. I need
to finish this worst project. Then I'm going to give
you my full attention. Let's sit at your computer together,

(01:21:26):
and let's start writing the email together. Scaffolding, right, just
like we kids don't go from not knowing how to
swim to swimming in the ocean.

Speaker 2 (01:21:34):
Yes, there's scaffolding.

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
Okay, well, how could you start? Okay, okay, I'll teach
you. You often start dear, dear, what's your coach's name? Coach? Okay,
oh dear, okay, yeah, and then you do a comma.
Do you see what the comma is? Right there? But
I make my kid press it right. Then you press
for turn. What is something you could do? You can
lead your kid to the water. How could you tell
coach Mike something like I'm not able to go to

(01:21:56):
practice today and your kid's gonna say, I guess I
could say I'm not able to go to practice. That's yes,
yet that great, But let them have the win, yeah,
help them type it right? Maybe the next time you
check in on them, like that's I think the middle ground,
and if we think again, kids aren't born with the skills,
And then you think about yourself as a coach. Good

(01:22:17):
coaches in any sport don't usually say this isn't a
big deal. Yeah, but they also don't make the layup
for someone right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
No, it's such a great way of putting it. It's
and I like the whole how good insight is based
on this middle ground, yeah, because we all get lost
on the edges and on the corners and the extremes,
and we keep oscillating between these two ways of being
rather than realizing, well, it's a bit of this and
a bit of that and probably not all the way
on either side. And it's so much more easier to

(01:22:46):
think about it like that, because I think our brain
does this thing where it goes, well should I be
assertive or should I be affectionate? And it's like we'll
be assertively affectionate, like you know, rather than rather than yeah,
do I be kind or do I be like you know,
do I challenge them? And it's like, well, figure out
a way to kindly challenge them, like, which is what
you just did in this email writing, which was like
it was a challenge but you were kind about it

(01:23:08):
and all of a sudden, and it's so real that
that's what we all want. If I think about anything
my parents failed at teaching me, it was because it
was just expected that I should know how to do it,
and anything they wanted teaching me, it was because they
sat down and did it with me, or someone did.
And I remember I worked at a company where I
learned how to cold call when I was like fifteen
years old, probably one of the best lessons I've ever

(01:23:29):
learned in my entire life. But it only worked because
this guy called Joel sat next to me who was
a pro at it, and he sat next to me
for my first like ten calls and would write out
the words for me and script and coach for me.
And then I did two hundred nighty phone calls after
that without him, and it was just those ten calls
that made me feel so confident. I didn't know what
cold calling was, and now everyone's listening going, what the

(01:23:51):
hell is cold calling? But it was when you were
trying to sell stuff over the phone to people you
didn't know, and back in the day, back in the day, yea,
And it was just that kind of an experience of yeah,
having someone hold my hand and have a script and
kind of could see me stress out on the phone
when someone said something I didn't expect and kind of
put a word in front of me and it was like, oh, okay,
that's how you do it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
Yeah, And look, I think this stuff it's so old
in our body, right, Like I think about an issue
as having with one of my kids a year or
two ago. It's small issues like why is this towel
on the floor? Why is it always on the floor.
I actually am not someone who cares about my kids
having like a very neat room. I don't know why.
I'll look into in therapy, but like the towel, the
wet towel on the floor is just it's the thing
my kids no way care about. And there's not that

(01:24:32):
many things like that, so it's on the floor and
every time. How hard is it? How hard is it
to take your towel and put it on the hook, right, Like,
there's so many ways. And if we go back and
you think about your equivalent and your childhood of towel
on the floor, right, I think that's what a lot
of us were met with, just like our parents' frustration. Again,
they were doing the best they could with the resources

(01:24:53):
they had, right, But the best bosses in the world,
if they get a report from someone that's not good,
I can't imagine, they're like, how did you do it
like this? Like, well, I don't know how to do
it differently. Then, and so I thought about this, and
I find a helpful question with your kid to start with,
be like, okay, wait, I have a good kid. Me
remind myself, I like my kid, I have a good kid.

(01:25:15):
What is a skill my kid would need to develop
to be better able to even pick up the towel
on the floor. And when I asked myself that question,
something crazy happened. Just I had a thought I'd never
had before because of the mindset shift. I said, I
wonder if he notices it, Like when I look in
his room and the towels on the floor, I don't

(01:25:35):
notice anything in the room except that towel. But I
know this. There's so many times that me and my
husband where he's like, did you not see this? And
I was like, oh, it just wasn't capturing my attention.
So I realized that and then I really, he probably
walks by it, he goes out, it's not in his mind.
So we talked. I talked to him about this. I said, hey,
this has become a thing. I don't want to keep fighting.
What would you need to do to remember to pick

(01:25:59):
up your towel in pursus? Like, I don't know? And
I was like, well, where do you walk, like in
your room before you go out? He's like, I always
go buy my door, So well, what would you need
to do or even put around your door to remember?
And literally he goes, I don't like a post it note?
It was It was so simple. My heart'schating. It felt
so deep because of the process. And I was like, oh,

(01:26:20):
like what would the post it note say? And he's like,
I don't know. Cowl. He's like okay, And then this
is an interesting moment. He goes, could you write it
for me? I was like, no, I'm not. Kind of again,
I'm not going to do it because I know that's
something you could do for yourself, and I think it
will be more meaningful if you do. And in our family,
you know, we take care of our things, and this
is one small thing I ask. And so you know

(01:26:40):
what we're together, you have post it notes right where
you work? It would be great, if that's something you
could do now, or if you want to do it
your own schedule, maybe some point before tomorrow. And then
I do the thing where I think this really matters,
I walk away. Nobody likes to listen or do something
someone asks when you're like breathing over their right, so
there's like an element of trust. And truly the next
day I saw a note and I would say after

(01:27:04):
that it was like a maybe a fifty percent hit
rate with a doll fifty was better than zero. I
learned so much in this process. I use it with
so many other things for my kids, like, oh, you
always forget to take your water bottle, okay, Like I
can get frustrated about that, or I could help them
build some new skill because again, what's going to transfer
is when my kids are in college, there's going to
be something that happens, Oh, I keep forgetting to study

(01:27:26):
for my tests on time, or I'm like to class.
Either they'll hear my voice saying what's wrong with you?
This isn't that hard, or they'll hear hold on a second, yeah,
I'm a good person. What's going on? What would I
need to do to be better? Able to do this?
Thing I want to accomplish. That's the process. You're really
modeling that process into adulthood. As we know, that's a

(01:27:48):
winning process.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
It's going to pay off, yeah big, And even if
it takes time, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
And you know what I don't want when my kids
in college, Like I always say, there's certain jobs. I
always want my kid's going through a hard time, something tricky,
happy for them to call me like water bottle, remember,
alarm clock setter. I don't need my kid in college
to be calling me that they forgot their water bottle
or that they you know, don't know how to pick
up their towel, or that they forgot to set their
alarm clock. So if I'm not helping them scaffold those skills, yeah,

(01:28:17):
I shouldn't be surprised. I don't know when they kind
of still lean on me for them.

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
Yeah, at that late rage. Yeah, no, it's it's such
a I wonder whether it's I felt like my parents
felt very comfortable getting us to do chores early on though,
and so I remember ironing my shirts for school since
I was probably like thirteen. Yeah, maybe, And then my
sister and I had a routine after dinner where we'd

(01:28:41):
either one of us would washing the dishes or clean
the table, and the other would clean the table and
washing the dishes. And I felt like those were healthy
routines that we just knew that were locked in if
we hate doing them. I never liked doing it ironing.
I got some pride in I'm still like a very
proud We used to iron, not steam, and I've learned
how to steam since moving to this country. But this
idea of I didn't like washing up the dishes all
cleaning the table. It was just part of our routine. Yes,

(01:29:04):
what is the value of discipline even when you hate it?
And what early chores are healthy and useful?

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
I think this is such an important conversation, and you
actually said something that I often say. You beat me
to the punch. First of all, there is just immense
value to kids spending time doing things that are unenjoyable.
I think, especially now. And I'm not trying to say
I'm always above this, but we've somehow moved to this
world where we're always optimizing for each kid. It's really interesting,

(01:29:34):
even like the weekends are split, like I'm making this
kid here, this kid here. We do that sometimes too.
It's necessary, but almost unconsciously we don't realize. I'm like
always optimizing for my kid's pleasure. I remember the time
that when my kid's like what, I'd go to my
sibling's soccer like he's not even good at soccer, which
was true, it wasn't that good, right, And it was
at the moment where I was like, that's actually exactly

(01:29:55):
why you're going to go, Like the weekend is not
about optimizing your personal pleasure at every second. Like it's
good for you to go and be bored. It's good
for you even if you could have a playdate to
sit and watch. That is such an important thing to
be a good human. And it reminds me of the

(01:30:15):
time that my kid is like, folding clothes is boring?
Why do we have to do this? And I found
myself I said this thing. I'm just like, you know what,
to be a good human, you just have to do
things that are boring and unenjoyable. Sometimes. I don't know,
but I think it's true, true, it's true. I don't
have a better way of saying it, just and my
kid was like, oh, I kind of like struck him,

(01:30:38):
like you know, no one had ever just said that
that's so the fact that you had a childhood where
there was this built in routine of things that were mundane,
largely unenjoyable, you can make them enjoyable. Put on the music,
do things. We try to do that in our house.
But actually I think that's relieving for a parent. Oh,
I don't have to make my kid's life amazing at

(01:30:59):
every moment. Going back to entitlement, like what an individualist,
relatively entitled view of the world to go forward, like,
I should spend ninety nine percent of my waking hours
doing things that I want to do and bring me pleasure. Now,
so I think you should spend some amount of time, Yes,
what but the idea that some of your childhood is

(01:31:21):
doing things that are good for the family, that are
more about being there for your sister, right, I think
that is so important. But what it means is tolerating
distress and tolerating pushback and tolerating whining. There's so much
whining now. The other reason though, I think toores are
really important. They're a way to feel impactful. It's one

(01:31:43):
of the biggest things we take for our kids is
when they're only spending time doing the things they want
to do, they're not really having an impact in the
real world, like clearing your plate and learning how to
wash it off and putting it in the dishwasher. How
concrete that is and how visual all the plates were there.

(01:32:03):
Then they got cleanish, then they went to the dishwasher,
then someone wiped them down, like you are watching yourself
have purpose an impact in the world. Your kids will
not say thank you for that when they're younger, but
I promise you that's critical to their mental health. They
don't want to live in their own world where they're
just spinning and thinking and optimizing. They actually do have

(01:32:26):
a need to feel like they're that's what it's feel
like they're a part of something. And I actually think
chores again, if done right, so many times tours are
almost given us punishment.

Speaker 2 (01:32:35):
Yeah, got it.

Speaker 1 (01:32:37):
I think it's a really important structure for that.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Yeah. And I love the way you bron down that process,
like seeing yourself do something from start to finish and
complete something and have to do it as a routine.
That is so much of adult life. Yes, and it's hard.
It was one of the mistakes I made it so
I started working when I was like fourteen. I used
to deliver newspapers. Then I worked at a grocery store,
and so I've been working for a long time. And
I have a younger sister's four and a half year

(01:33:01):
younger than me, and I never wanted her to work
because I just wanted her to be protected in my
naivety being a teenager myself at the time of love.
But we talk about it all the time now, where
like I started working since I was fourteen, so work
is very normal to me. I get it, I know
what it takes. It's part of my life. I've always
had to pay my way. And for my sister, it's

(01:33:23):
like she didn't start working until she graduated, and she
likes to get away from work as much as she
can because she didn't have that routine and rhythm from
that early age. And there was so much growth at
that time that you made socially by having a job
and being around people of different backgrounds at different ages.
My boss was fifty and there was a sixty year
old person at the checkout and a twenty year old

(01:33:45):
person and just generational, you know, experience and exposure and
so much again from working in a grocery store that
I could never have learned at home.

Speaker 1 (01:33:54):
And I think about that word capability. I bet you
built a ton.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
I'm a person and who can do hard things. I'm
a person who can go into a situation that's totally new, nuanced,
has ups and downs, and no matter what I finished
the day, just the best to dolphin is knowing I
can get through it. That's so important. It's the other
thing that it's kind of different than chores. But having
our kids do real things in the real world, right,

(01:34:21):
I think it's something that we need to put a
lot more attention to. I know John Hyte talks about
this a lot, right. We kind of overprotect kids online,
and or we underprotect kids online and overprotect them in
the real world. And he and I talk about this
a lot. I think I've watched my kids. Right. We
live in Manhattan, right, and so mobility for kids is
maybe a little easier. They don't need to ride somewhere.

(01:34:42):
But when I see, you know, my kid who can
go get bagels for the family on their own, right,
take public transportation on their own, the pride and capability
they feel, I promise you. I mean, I think academics
in school and all those things in sports are really important.
Don't get me wrong. I just I literally don't see
this like visceral feeling in any other place than when

(01:35:04):
they're in the real world, feeling like a capable person
who's operating like everyone else. And so I think that
and everyone can ease into that in their own way.

Speaker 2 (01:35:14):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:35:15):
It might be you go to the doctor with your
kid and you let them check in. It might be
you let them tell their pediatrician, Hey, how's she doing
this year? Let her answer first, Right, it's emailing the
coach instead of you doing it. It's maybe you don't
live in a city where kid can walk to the
grocery store, but maybe you hang back and let them
check out. I mean, there's so many situations, but that

(01:35:36):
communication of trust and capability, if you reflect that to
your kid and then they start to experiment with that
so critical.

Speaker 2 (01:35:45):
Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from
our sponsors and back to our episode. Yeah, I think
a lot of pressure that parents are feeling right now
about that overprotection is also feeling that they have to
be available and monitoring and be around and entertain all
the time. And it goes back to this point that

(01:36:06):
you've spoken about the whole time, this dichotomy of we
didn't get a lot of time from our parents growing up.
For a lot of people, parents weren't around because they
had to pay the bills and take care of stuff.
And now it's the opposite where parents feel like, well,
I have to work from home, I have to be
completely flexible, I have to be there all the time.
And I feel like that's a lot of pressure. For

(01:36:27):
two reasons. One is you now feel like every waking
moment has to be spent entertaining a kid, which is exhausting.
But we all feel the pressure societally and culturally of
if you don't, your kids can have trauma. And then
the other side of it is we talk about what
it means to be a good parent because it makes
us feel good about ourselves, but not about what kids

(01:36:50):
actually need. So if I think about the difference between
what makes me feel like a good husband versus what
does my wife actually need, Like, what makes me feel
like a good husband is a long list of things
that my wife would pick up on and be like, yeah,
I don't need any of that stuff, And I feel
like kids might do the same.

Speaker 1 (01:37:09):
I think that's really smart. I haven't thought about it
that way, but yeah, I think we should dive into that.
I mean, I think we have an idea what makes
me feel good? As if, Yes, I'm always available, always watching,
I'm always make sure they don't slip off the ladder
of the playground, Right, what does my kid feel? Nobody

(01:37:30):
trusts me. I don't have any space. I don't even
know anymore what's me and what's my parent?

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:37:35):
It's like we're living this in meshed world now. I
don't think a kid could ever articulate. Right Again, we're
not going to hear from our eight year old. I'd
love little more space, right, Yeah, but they might, they
might say it in other ways, right, And I really
don't think it's just me. I think the good inside
really is this movement. It's ignited something in people. I
think there's a lot of us who are like, yeah,

(01:37:58):
this whole always being there, always fixing, right, I'm always
witnessing this kind of way. We've confused emotional safety with
emotional comfort. Those are very different things. I think there's
I think there's like a new wave, right. I mean,
I think one of the reasons why we're so resentful,

(01:38:18):
we're so reactive. We can be so rageful. We're on
our phones all the time around our kids. Is because
we rarely have time without our kids, right, And it's
actually important for everyone. And again, people hear that and
they go to these awful extreme places. So you're just
gonna slam your door and tell your kids you can't
hang out with them. Nobody said that. I'm definitely not

(01:38:40):
saying that that would not be a good way to
operationalize this concept. But helping your kids learn how to
play independently, if you live in a neighborhood with other kids,
helping them figure out that they can play on that
neighbor's lawn and you don't have to be there. Maybe
you're nervous, but maybe we have to fake it till
you make it. You're like, yeah, I totally trust you,
and then you turn You're like texting your friend like,
oh my goodness, help me through this. Okay, I have

(01:39:00):
one window up top that actually is black and from
the outside so they can't see him watching them. But
then maybe after a week you're not doing that right
or for me too, letting our kids go to the
grocery store without them, it is a leap of faith
and we all have different levels of anxiety to manage.
But I think that's right. Kids need space. Of course,
kids need attention, They like to be witnessed. But I

(01:39:23):
mean imagine your wife, yeah, following you around at every
moment beyond probably on some level feeling annoying. There's a
message like I actually don't trust you, and I also
don't trust our relationship enough to feel like we could
have that be strong if you are also your own person,

(01:39:44):
And I think I think we really need to redefine
parenthood around those lines.

Speaker 2 (01:39:48):
Yeah, no, I'm glad, you know. I was just thinking
about it. I was just like when you think about
any other space. It's almost like if I from any job,
if I serve burgh as at McDonald my worth is
not calculated by if I feel good doing that. It's
calculated by what the customer needs and wants. So if
the customer orders a cheeseburger and I serve them a

(01:40:10):
coke and fries because that makes me feel better, that's
not accurate. It's about and so I'm not saying we
have to do our kids want totally. It's probably a
bad example. Actually I take that back, but there's a
sense of like am I aware of what children actually
need need? I think what a children actually need is
that's a bad metaphor, but yeah, it's like what a
children actually need versus what makes me feel good in

(01:40:32):
the moment.

Speaker 1 (01:40:32):
I think that's right. And look, there's this dance, the
dance between independence and dependence. It's constant, right, independence grows
from the safety of dependence. It's true for us too.
I'm sure in part you feel like you can try
all these new things and you know, be honest and vulnerable.

(01:40:53):
In part maybe because you feel like at the end
of the day at my wife, I can come home
to like I have a secure base, which means I
can explore. That's really important. So yes, the time we
spend with our kids the way we connect with them.
But the truth is, after those stages of intense kind
of connection or dependence, the way kids actually grow is

(01:41:16):
from the safety of dependence. They do things that are new.
It's when so many parents say, like, I feel so
guilty going on a trip away from my kid, and
my kid's upset, right, and I haven't ask we who
are they stay? I don't know they're staying with Grandma's
someone who they're like or they're staying with their partner
and someone who they're perfectly safe with, and is this
so bad for them? And I always say the same thing.

(01:41:36):
I mean it. Not only do I think it's good
for them, I think your kid is going to consolidate
all of the skills you've been working on them with. Right.
It's kind of like if you are a basketball player
and you have a coach and they're watching, and they're watching,
and they're working on this thing. You need time in
the gym without that coach to then kind of go
do the thing and then you know what, you're gonna

(01:41:56):
get back with a coach and work on the next thing.
But I just want parents to hear that, yes, be there,
that connection, that validation, and then the periods where either
you're traveling or you're not there, that is actually probably
the time your kid can bring it all together and
not only consolidate skills. That's when you know it's yours.
If I'm only I don't know able to do a

(01:42:19):
good presentation when my boss is in the room, a
part of me always wonders.

Speaker 2 (01:42:22):
Like, yeah, wow, that's a great point.

Speaker 1 (01:42:26):
My boss is sick, and I go to my boss,
I crushed it. I feel like it's me now, I'm like,
that was me, So yeah, we really want to give
our kids that opportunity.

Speaker 2 (01:42:35):
That's such a great point. I love that I was
better than the McDonald's, definitely better than.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
We're trying to get there to.

Speaker 2 (01:42:43):
I was like, it's not working backtrack before you.

Speaker 1 (01:42:46):
Something with metaphors, you never know the like, actually it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:42:48):
I was like, I never said that before, so let's
vat track. But no, there's that resonates strongly.

Speaker 1 (01:42:53):
I was.

Speaker 2 (01:42:54):
My tour manager is from London. He was traveling with me.
We just finished a North American and kind of tour.
We did like fifteen cities and he's toured with me twice.
We did a World War two years ago. So he
comes from London. He has two little boys, and he
was saying that the last time he left he was here,
only had one. But he was telling his kid that
he was like, oh, I'm really sorry I have to

(01:43:14):
go away, And this time he said, he was changing
it where he's like, I'm really excited to go away.
I'm going to miss you, but I'm really excited I'm
doing the show and we're going live and we're doing
this thing. And he was saying how he wanted his
kid to I feel excited for him rather than feel like, oh,
dad hates going to work and he's sorry and he's
feeling bad about it, and at the same time like

(01:43:34):
feeling like his kid had space to grow and feel
that confidence. And yes, of course his kid faced down
there every day I missed him and whatever it was,
but there was that sense that he was like, no,
I want him to feel positive the fact that I'm
going away. I don't want him to feel like I'm
nervous that I'm going away and I'm going to be
away from him. And now he's taking on that anxiety
as well. The dad's scared that he's leaving me behind

(01:43:56):
without him with Mum, who obviously you know like right
there too. The main Gara loves me and you know
he's always around there for me, and so it's he
was like, no, I want him to leave feeling good.

Speaker 1 (01:44:07):
And I think really sturdy leaders do that. Like my
language for that is two things are true. So going
back to boundaries and validation, two things are true. I
can set a boundary, you can be upset. Two things
are true. I'm excited about going on tour with Jay
and I'm going to miss you, or two things are true.
I'm excited for this next step, and I get that
you wish I was staying home. Like, I actually think

(01:44:30):
that phrase two things are true. It trains our mind
to then say the things and then the thing that's
a small shift that makes a huge difference is kind
of upgrading the butt to an ant. I'm excited, but
I'm going to miss you. I'm excited and I'm going
to miss you right like, and look, I think in
the world we see this like collapse of our ability
to hold two things that is true. It's in every

(01:44:52):
small and big way, which again is why I think
I think about good inside is really so important. I
think the one one of the most powerful ways we
can change the world is how we raise the next
generation of kids who will become adults. And to me,
that idea of holding oppositional true set once and maybe
this relates to what people say is mom guilt. Two

(01:45:12):
things are true. I'm going to dinner with my friends tonight,
so PERSONEX, your dad, my mom, whoever it is, is
going to put you to bed. Two things are true.
I'm excited to see my friends and I understand you're
going to be upset, Like, I don't have to fix
the upset. I don't have to change my plans. I
don't need to get my five year old. But don't
you understand it's really good for me to go out

(01:45:32):
with my friends. I'm a better mom again. What's happening
there now? They can just both be true, And when
we become better able to like verbalize that, we actually
teach our kids to be able to tolerate those two
things at once.

Speaker 2 (01:45:45):
That's all. I'm so glad you raised that. It's probably
the thing I've been focused on the most right now,
because I love that what f Scott Fitzgerald wrote, which
was the test of a first rate intelligence is the
ability to hold two opposing ideas of the same time, yep,
and not and retain the ability to functions. Yeah, And
it's just so well said. And then he goes on

(01:46:07):
to say that one should therefore be able to see
that things are hard, but that I have the possibility
to change them, right and yeah, sorry, and yeah, that's
exactly it so real, And I'm so glad that you've
taken it from parenting into parenting, yes, because that is
the ability that none of us have today in any capacity.

Speaker 1 (01:46:28):
And this is the stuff. It drives us parents crazy.
So just to model how you can go from these
singular truths to this duality. Like, I love the heck
out of my kids, and many days I miss so
many the moments before I had kids. I am so
grateful for my kids, and I feel exhausted, And I

(01:46:49):
think what's important is one doesn't have to be more
true than the other. They can just both be there.
They're like two boxes sitting on a shelf, and it's
powerful to start to watch your mind try to collapse them. Right, Oh, good,
parents don't feel that way. Wait, this might just be
a two things are true situation. Maybe I'm allowed to

(01:47:09):
love being a mother and miss my life before I'm
a mother, And maybe there's no resolution. Maybe I just
gone back to the bench. Maybe I just have to
like sit with that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:18):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm thinking back to all the times
I did that to my parents because we forget, yeah,
like we forget that we did the same things. Like
I find it really funny when I swing to a
friend of someone and they're like, yeah, you know, my
teenager just doesn't get me right now, I'm like, did
you get your parents on you're a teenager? Like I'm like,
I was the worst, and you know, and I think
about even being a kid, and I remember my mom

(01:47:40):
had to go out to work in the evening, so
she couldn't put me to bed a lot of the time,
and I remember crying until she left, like I'd hold
onto her foot until she walked to the door and
she'd walk out to get to work, and then Dad
would put me to bed. And I still remember it,
and it's just it's so interesting that we forget that
we did all of those things because it feels like
such a long time time ago. But the reality is

(01:48:01):
that children haven't changed that much. They just have different ways.
They might have an iPad instead of a PlayStation versus
the TV or whatever it may have been. And it's
just when you remember that you can actually empathize with
it better and realize your parents also had to do things.
That wasn't the reason you end up feeling neglected, like

(01:48:22):
that wasn't it, Like I don't think I don't look
back at that memory with my mum and go I
felt neglected when she left for work because she explained
it to me I knew where she was going. I
knew I was her dad like it was it's And
of course there are people who have very opposite experiences
where they could have been neglect and trauma, and I
think that's that's what I wanted to ask you about,
is if someone's listening, going, look, I love my parents.

(01:48:45):
They weren't perfect, but I love them, and or maybe
they actually caused me a lot of pain, but you know,
it is what it is. How do I not be
like them? Because that's what I'm most scared of, because yeah,
I am probably carrying some trauma and maybe I feel
positively to them, but maybe there's one of them that
I never want to talk to again, and I'm scared
of becoming them.

Speaker 1 (01:49:05):
And I totally understand that fear, and what i'd say
to that person first is like, I hope you give
yourself a lot of credit for even just naming that
and letting yourself see that there are things in my
parents I love and I appreciate, and there are things
I want to do really differently. I'm so scared of
repeating that pattern that I would just say, that's kind

(01:49:26):
of amazing and brave to even just name that that's
step one, step two. I'd actually just want to learn more,
tell me more. What don't you want to be like, well,
I would have never talked to my parent when I
was in a tricky situation. I felt like my parents
were just controlling, judgmental, Like I'd want to get more specific, right, Okay,
So what I think is helpful to know again is

(01:49:47):
parenting is like a language, right. And if you were
brought up in English, right, and you want to speak
a little English, but also Mandarin, your first instinct with
your kid, even as your learning Mandarin is going to
be English. It just especially in stressful moments. And that's okay,
that doesn't mean you're failing. It just means probably got
to go back to those Mandarin lessons and you goverpair

(01:50:10):
and you keep going. So I just also want people
to know that's that's what change looks like. No one
goes and does a complete one eighty. But people underestimate
If you think about your family lineage like a ship
and it's going toward a certain destination, you're like, I
don't want to go there. Even a small shift in
the ocean leads to a dramatically different destination, right, And

(01:50:31):
that's what cycle breaking is. And then I think we
work on one thing at a time. Okay, let's say
it's I really want my kid to be the kind
of kid who can come to me. Stakes are even
higher now there's stuff on TikTok it, sex, drugs. I
want my kid to come to me. I would have
never with my parent. It still haunts me things that
happened because I didn't or they yelled at me. Great,

(01:50:52):
I'd feel, Okay, well, hold is your kid now? Five? Okay,
let's start building that because I think that's a topic
that comes up a lot. The idea that whether or
not our team comes to us in tricky moments is
something that like magically starts in the teenage years, as
if there's no history to it. Right, So let's think
about how you respond when your kid hits. Let's think
about what happens ooh, you just got a female from

(01:51:13):
school that your kids stole a truck from his friend's cuppy.
These things seem very small compared to sex and drugs
and rock and roll, but in a way, they're the
same circuit. I did something I know you're not going
to approve of. Frankly, I did something even I feel
shameful about. How do we deal with that in this family? Now,

(01:51:34):
what do I think that parents' first instinct is going
to be? What do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:51:40):
Yeah, like, oh my god, I can't believe you stole
the truck. What's wrong with you?

Speaker 1 (01:51:43):
Like exactly what's wrong with you? Go to your room?
By the way, when you go to your room, I
took away all your trucks, Like I don't, by the way,
I guess it's just what we we like just come
up with this stuff because it's been so many generations,
even though it's laughable, like why would that help my kid?
But we all have the instinct. I do too. But
if you know you're gonna have that instinct, you're more prepared,
and you might. And this is where I tell parents, like,

(01:52:05):
if you thought of it like a new language, you
would never expect yourself to learn Mandarin just because you
wanted to learn Mandarin, like frankly, I don't know. You'd
probably just download dueling. I don't know, and you'd be like,
I'm gonna practice as many days as I can. If
I miss my streak, it's okay, I'm gonna get back on.
And that's what I feel like good insight is it
is a new language. So what does that mean? First?

(01:52:26):
You have to learn how to regulate your own emotions.
You're probably telling yourself the story my kid's stealing trucks
at age four. They're gonna be in jail by age nineteen.
I have a sociopath. That is what you do as
a parent. The number of times you start thinking your
kid's a sociopath when really they're just a good kid
having a hard time is way too many to count.
But let's do that. So what do I say to myself?
What is the mantra? Where do I go? Do I
have a support group? Do I have a friend to text?
Do I have a little chatbot that helps me these

(01:52:48):
day and age?

Speaker 2 (01:52:49):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:52:49):
That's what we have right too? Okay, there's that. Then
I'm gonna remember we're on the same team. Then I'm
gonna remember a little of that sick joy which is
true there too. Hold on a second. If I know
my kid sees things that they want and doesn't yet
have the impulse control to not take them, if I
can help my kid without at age four, do you

(01:53:10):
know much better that is than learning at age fourteen
forty four like then things get bad.

Speaker 2 (01:53:18):
Yeah, we all have an urge to.

Speaker 1 (01:53:19):
Take things that we want, right, so you can actually, okay,
this is a good thing, same team. And then there's
maybe I'm gonna get curious. Yeah, that would have been
nice if my parents were curious. Okay then, and this
is just a rule I have for any relationship. Don't
ask anybody a question you know the answer to. It's
not a question, that's an accusation with a question mark.
Did you take anything from the copy today? You're just

(01:53:42):
setting yourself up to be adversary. Say the truth. I
heard what happened. This is a good line, right, You're
a good kid, made a bad decision. That's okay, You're
not in trouble. My job is to help understand and
help you through it. This actually happened with my kid, Okay,
one of my kids. You know, he saw something he wanted,

(01:54:02):
and you know what, a lot of us when we
see things we want, we wish it was ours. And
so we talked about it. We did this, and then
we did a lot of other things. I really do
take coaching, I think to the next level. Like if
you're and I always go back to sports because I'm
a sports person too. But if you are a basketball coach,
you can sit down some kids and teach them how
to make a layup, but we all know you then
actually have to get in the gym and like do it.

(01:54:26):
You can't just mentally learn it. The body movements matter.
So one of the things I did with my son
in this example is I was like, after not all
on the same day, we're gonna play a game. I'm
gonna have a truck and I'm gonna put it somewhere
and I'm gonna walk away, and I want you to
see it, and let's practice this. You're gonna say to yourself,
I really want that, and then we're gonna practice the

(01:54:48):
thing we just talked about. This stinks, but it's not mine.
Some like mini mantra literally a tool, and I'm gonna
actually practice that, and then I'll kids a resistance. It'll
reverse it. Okay, I'll be you. Okay, Oh I want
that truck. Maybe if I take it, nobody will notice.
Then it'll be mine and then it'll just be my

(01:55:09):
little truck and it's all gonna be Okay. Wait, Becky,
I want it. This stinks, but I can deal with it.
It's actually amazing when you give kids little mantras, little
alternative behaviors, and I know it, sense I hear a
pound's voice. I do like that takes a lot of time. Yeah,
I hear that. But in life, I think we either

(01:55:30):
spend time preparing or reacting. And however you spend time naturally,
you just don't account for it as time. You know
how much time it takes to be mad at your
kid all day, how much time it takes when you
stay up at bed feeling so kind of ashamed of
how the day went. How much time those things take
time too. I promise you these little interventions can take
forty five seconds. Again, my son, we're not having some

(01:55:51):
in depth conversation. It's just a thing, and we move on.
And then and then they literally always then with NYE
pretzels now, and you're like, I guess they're saturated. But
regulate your own emotions. Remember you're on the same team.
It's good news when you see bad behavior when they're young,
because they're always younger than they are tomorrow. And if
you see it again as a feeling an urge gap

(01:56:14):
with the skills, the answer becomes I can be a coach.
Teach skills, practice skills here and there, and then often
what's amazing is not only does behavior change, it doesn't
change from fear, because in behavior changes from fear, I'm
just so scared of my parent. That then leads to
becoming a teen. You know, when you're a teen, you
don't care about the timeouts, you don't care about your kids,

(01:56:37):
you don't care about your parents stickers, You're just not
really having a relationship with them, and you're hiding things
from them.

Speaker 2 (01:56:43):
Yeah, all said Becky, You were very clear that there's
no such thing as a perfect parent, but you are
a perfect coach, and your advice and insight is This
has been by far my favorite conversation on parenting, and
that's such a great time learning from you today. Like
I've had mind blowing moments, have had affirmations on things

(01:57:04):
that I already believed were true. I've had clarifications, I've
had extensions of things that I thought I understood, but
you've expanded my mind. And I think everyone at home
is listening and watching or on the road would feel
the same way. And so I hope everyone who's listening
and watching, I hope you go and check out the
app Good inside, check out the platform, go and grab
a copy of the book. Follow back You online if

(01:57:24):
you don't already. Her Instagram and social media is full
of great insights that are really simply and succinctly put
for you to start making real change. And at the
same time, I really hope that you'll tag both of
us and share the insights and the thoughts that have
resonated with you today that you're putting into action, that
you're trying out and whether you've got the reaction you
wanted or not, but the win that you had of

(01:57:46):
actually communicating effectively, of following some of these scripts and
making them your own and putting them into your own
language and words with your kids, I really hope this
helps you build the child and the life and the
relationship that you're looking for with them. And Becky, I'm
just so grateful to you for having your time and
energy to do this with me.

Speaker 1 (01:58:04):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:58:05):
That's such a great time.

Speaker 1 (01:58:06):
It's such a great time to hope. You know it's
not too long till I see you again.

Speaker 2 (01:58:09):
Yeah, you have to come back. I have so much
more I ney to talk to you about. We just
spoke for two hours and I could literally talk to
you for another two hours, but I've been mindful of time.
But I would love for you to come back because
I feel like there's so much more for us to uncover.

Speaker 1 (01:58:22):
I'm all in.

Speaker 2 (01:58:22):
I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. If you love
this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr Gabor Matte
on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds
to start moving on from the past. Everything in nature
grows only where it's vulnerable. So a tree doesn't go
o where it's hard and thick, does it.

Speaker 1 (01:58:41):
It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Host

Jay Shetty

Popular Podcasts

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Becky Kennedy: #1 Parenting Mistake Fueling Your Kid’s Anxiety! Follow THIS Proven Framework to Raise Emotionally Strong Adults