Dr. Tara Swart: 4 Brain Hacks To Manifest Anything Into Your Life (Science-Backed Method!)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know that feeling of I'm trying to manifest but
nothing's happening. Manifestation is not creating a fantasy and then
waiting for it to come. Try with no action from yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Leading neuroscientists, best selling author doctor Tarriswipe.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
We cannot undo a negative thought pattern. We have to
overwrite it with a new one. Your brain it's two
and a half times more strongly wired to avoid risk
than is to get a reward.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Wow. The number one health and wellness podcast Ja Shedy
j Sheddy only shed Hey Everyone, Welcome back to on Purpose,
the place you choose to become a happier, healthier and
more healed. Today's guest is someone that I've wanted to

(00:43):
talk to for such a long time, and I'm so
excited because we finally have a in the studio, actually
all the way in London because we didn't know when
she was coming to LA and I'm so glad we
made it happen. I'm speaking about the one and only
doctor Tara Swat. She's a PhD neuroscientist for I'm D,
Executive Advisor, best selling author, and Senior Advisor for Neuroscience

(01:05):
and Leadership at MIT Sloan. Her book is called The
Source The Secrets of the Universe, The Science of the Brain.
If you don't already have a copy, I want you
to go and grab it now. I promise you you
won't regret it. Please welcome to On Purpose, doctor Tara
Swat Tara. It's such a joy to have you here.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Honestly, thank you so much, and thank you for you know,
squeezing me in when you're in London for such a
short time.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
No, no, not, this is something I was looking forward
to all week. I can promise you. It's a Thursday
for anyone who's listening, and I've been recording all week
and I was really excited to sit down with you.
I think the work that you're doing is so similar
in value to the work I'm trying to do in
the world. I really believe that for so long ancient wisdom,

(01:50):
and the wisdom of the East especially, has been seen
through two lenses. I think there's been a lot of
enthusiasm towards it and a lot of value and reverence,
and at the same time, I think there's been, as
you say, skepticism and cynicism around it. And so to
have someone of your caliber your research, your insight and

(02:11):
communicating in the way you do, I think is such
a great blessing and benefit for the industry in and
of itself. So thank you so much for the work
you do. You really means the world. But let's dive
straight in and if you hear me and Tara lock
into some what would I call them inside jokes because
we're both North Londoners, then just please roll with us.

(02:31):
But Tara, I wanted to start off with, where did
you and why did you get so passionate about this
work and finding the parallels between ancient wisdom and modern
science and why did that work call you?

Speaker 1 (02:46):
As you know, I grew up in North London and
I was the oldest child of first generation immigrant parents.
So I always felt like I was bridging two worlds.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
I went to school, I didn't have any Indian friends,
and I just wanted to fit in with my friends.
And then I would come home and obviously we would
have like the altars and the incense and the ceremonies
and the rituals and everything, and so yeah, I would
say for most of my childhood I was living in
two worlds. And then at the age of eighteen, I

(03:16):
went to medical school, and I think I moved very
much away from our cultural heritage and just lived like
a teenager and so on in their twenties at university.
And I was at university for most of my twenties
because I did medical school and a PhD, so nine
years at university. Around the time that I became a doctor,

(03:36):
yoga was becoming quite popular in society, so I sort
of returned to that, and I would say that reignited
my interest in our cultural heritage, but then still I
would keep it very separate from my work. So I
was working in the NHS, you know that really wasn't
very holistic. But at home I was eating in an
Aerovhadic way and doing yoga. And some time past and

(03:59):
these things came more into our culture anyway. But still
at the time that I wrote the Source, it was
a risk for me, as an MIT professor to start
speaking about manifestation and visualization and meditation and things like that.
But writing it really for me, actually brought those two
things together and made me think I don't have to
keep my personal life separate from my professional life. And

(04:22):
I have to say thank you to everyone that the
response to it. Then you took that even further. As
we were discussing, you know, we both had books out
around that time. Couldn't really do world promo because of
the pandemic. But very early on in the pandemic, I thought,
oh no, there's going to be a huge mental health crisis.
And it was so unprecedented. I thought, what can I

(04:44):
offer that isn't already available to people? But I will
caveat that by saying, I think all of the ancient
wisdom knowledge that I tried to apply to modern mental
health problems is it's just things that we've forgotten. It's
not anything new, but it's about bringing you know, finding
those things. It's like gold mining and bringing them to
people and saying this could really help you.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
It's fascinating that all of these things have been practiced
for thousands and thousands of years, and ironically, we've also
had mental health and anxiety challenges for much longer than
we believe we have. And I often think of the
Bagadaghita and origin, which you know was spoken five thousand
years ago. But that experience that he's having on the

(05:27):
battlefield is anxiety stress. He's having a sense of a
loss of identity. He's worried about the surroundings and the
impending war that's about to take place. And so you
see that in a text that's five thousand years old,
and then you have all of this wisdom that surrounds it.
But being able to translate that into what's happening now

(05:48):
is so needed. And I guess that's why you had
that positive response.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, And what I found really interesting is that it
would be one thing if you and I sat here
and talked about our own cultural he But what I
found is that if you look at the ancient Greeks,
ancient Egyptians, Babylon, and you know, all sorts of other
ancient cultures, the first Americans, that there are so many
similar themes of the things keep us healthy and such

(06:15):
new science as if it's just been discovered in the
last year or two, like things like connection to nature.
I mean, how will we not understanding that for so long?
You know, I think because there are no planes in
the sky and less traffic, and our time and nature
in this country anyway was limited people who allowed like
a one hour walk outside during the day. At some
point the appreciation of nature grew, and then suddenly, as

(06:39):
if from nowhere comes out the science that time and
nature helps your mental health, your physical health, your longevity,
it boosts your immunity, that there's just an impact of
that awe inspiring sort of feeling of being in beautiful
nature on the way that your brain works. So like
so much modern science, that is actually not one of

(07:03):
those things is near.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's not new at all. This idea then,
that we have the power to change our destiny, this
idea that we have the power to propel our lives,
whether it's careers, whether it's relationships. We have the ability
to shift and pivot. A lot of people will hear

(07:25):
that and they think to themselves, well, that doesn't happen
to me. It happens for those people. They hear that
and think, yeah, you can't really think your way into anything.
Or people hear it and say, no, I tried that
once and it didn't work for me. How do you
approach that conversation of helping people realize the power that

(07:46):
they hold and the power of what's possible for any
one of us.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
I love the way you've kind of segued that from
nature into manifestation. Because a few things here, one thing
is that if you just observe nature, you see manifestation
or the time you know, you see a flower growing
from a bard into a fully formed flower, and then
it's petals starting to fall, you see trees growing, you know,
all sorts of things. And the other connection there is
that creating the environment within yourself and around yourself to

(08:14):
allow things like manifestation to happen. And that basically means
at the simplest level, that you set a goal, you say,
this is what I want my life to be, like, well,
this is a specific thing I want in my life,
and then there's a process that leads that to potentially
manifesting in the real world. But I do agree with
one of those skepticism points, which is that you can't

(08:35):
sit at home and think about it. So I've been
really really clear about saying that it's manifestation, is not
creating a fantasy and then waiting for it to come
true with no action from yourself. So I actually renamed
vision boards action boards as if to say that, yes,
create imagery that represents what you want, but then you
have to be doing something every day to move yourself

(08:57):
closer to that, whether it's being healthier, just so that
you're brain is in a better environment, or it's networking
or dating or you know, saving money, whatever it is
that's going to get you. Let's say the house that
you want. You know, a great example is people might say,
of course, I'd love a house in the Hampton's but
if that's not realistic for you in the short term,

(09:18):
then you'll only reinforce the fact that you're failing at manifesting.
So it's better to say I'd like to be on
the property ladder and start there and then obviously build bigger.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Do you find a difference, And I want to get
into the science and research part to show the validity
of what you're saying, Did you find a difference in
the science of measuring extrinsic and intrinsic motivators? Because I
feel like manifestation is still always about what do you want?
Where do you want to be? And as you know, honestly,

(09:49):
I can only I can only really speak for myself.
But when I think about it, for me, I've if
someone asked me what that was, I've always wanted to
just wake up and do what I love every day,
like that's that's really all I care about. And so
It's all I care, right, is I want to wake
up and do what I love every day and hopefully
improves the lives of other people. And if those two
things can go together. And I find that a lot

(10:09):
of manifestation stems around like what kind of house do
you want? And what kind of car do you want?
And what kind of life do you want? And it
gets very extrinsic, and so I wonder whether I'm intrigued.
I'm really curious to know what the science suggests about
when you're having an action board towards an intrinsic motivator
or an extrinsic motivator.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
There's a lot to unpack here.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Please, I'm all leaders, I'm here as a student to
just listen because I'm so fascinated.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
So in terms of the motivation, to make it really
easy for people to understand, I called it magnetic desire,
which is something that is so emotionally driven for you,
personally underligned with you know what's logically doable in your
life and what your intuition tells you, and you know
what your creative brain can help you to achieve. That

(10:54):
if you have magnetic desire for something, then you know
I always say if you follow your passion, you will
be successful. But I'm mindful that that statement and even
your one if I just want to wake up and
do what I love, are extremely privileged statements. So with manifestation,
one of the criticisms is that you know, that's a
luxury for people who already have, you know, more than

(11:16):
what they need, and then they can say, oh, well,
I would love, you know, to do this or have this.
And so I think what I've learned in where I
have ever felt slightly defensive around that statement is that
whoever you are, wherever you are, there is one tiny
thing that you could do to make your life better,
and it's the micro changes that build you up to

(11:37):
getting to a point where maybe you can actually do
something that you love rather than do what you have
to do to put food on the table for your children.
But having said that, if your ideas for what you
want to manifest are things like, well, all my friends
are getting married and having family, so I want to
get married and have a family, rather than I've really

(11:58):
thought about what I want to do, and my passion
and purpose might mean that I have to delay having
a family, and that's okay. It's more likely to work
out with the second one than the one that's kind
of too guided by parental expectations, societal expectation, career, you know, aspirations.
So I do think people have to dig deeper for
manifestation to you know, really work well.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah, walk me through some of the science that and
the research that validates some of these claims, because I
think that's your unique perspective, and that's been the unique
angle that you brought to in I feel like it's
great to understand that this stuff is actually being research tested, discovered.
It's not just being said because it not just sounds good,

(12:44):
but that maybe there's a couple of case studies, but
there's more than that.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
So there's two main sort of areas around that. One
is the sort of six themes that I narrowed down
from the twelve laws of attraction that I could explain
with cognitive science, which is neuroscience and psychology. So when
I first started that research, I saw that there wasn't
even agreement over what the laws of attraction were or

(13:09):
how many there were. So I thought, okay, let me
distill this down to like something that makes sense to me,
and then like see what we can do with it.
So the first one is abundance because one of the
strongest gearings in the brain is loss avoidance. So to
survive when we lived in the cave, we had to
stay safe rather than take risk. Now for most of

(13:30):
us who are lucky enough, you know, to live in
the modern world and have basic safety around us, it's
healthier for us to be willing to take risk. So
you actually have to override that ancient wiring of the
brain which says, no, don't go and like, you know,
fly to London and try to have meetings with lots
of different people who may not want to meet you.
Stay in LA because that's safer, and you've got your

(13:51):
community around you and you know, you know, you've got
a big network. So for you to say, well, I'm
going to go to a news I know it's not
it was your home. But in terms of like recent work,
you know, kind of take a bit of a risk,
take a week out there. You know, see who I
can interview. That is you overriding that part of your
brain that might say it would just be easier for
me to stay in LA. So it's as simple as that.

(14:14):
It can obviously be a lot harder than that as well.
But it's understanding that your brain will do quite a
lot to stop you from taking risk. It's two and
a half times as strongly wired to avoid risk as
it is to gain reward.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
And do that part again, it's two.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
And a half times more strongly wired to avoid risk
than is to get a reward.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
It's about believing that there are enough resources out there
for everyone, and that by you know, perhaps entering a
new career pool or a new community of people, that
it doesn't mean that you're likely to fail if you've
managed to be in an abundant state, Because what that
does in the brain is it moves the brain away
from the fear and shame kind of states which correlate

(14:57):
with the stress woman cortisol, to the love and trust
and joy and excitement states which correlate with the bonding
hormone oxytocin. Now, when your brain is in that state,
it's much more likely to take a healthy risk. It's
much more likely to ask someone for a favor. We
were talking about, you know, asking each other for favors before.
You wouldn't do that if you thought, well, don't ask ja,
because you'll just shut you down, then you would never

(15:18):
ask anyone. But if you start a conversation and someone
looks like they want to be generous and help you,
then you know you go into that oxytocin mode. But
you need to be pushing yourself into that mode as
much of the time as you can. So the second
one is manifestation, which is believing that with your abundant
resources you can do things in the real world that

(15:39):
mean that whether it's that feeling if I do what
I love, or it's an actual house, that you have
it in your capability to make that happen. Because of course,
if you believe it will never happen for me one
of these common statements that's likely to become true, that's
manifestation too, it's just negative manifestation. And it's important to
say that both manifestation and the process of neuroplasticity, which

(16:02):
I will describe in detail, which is how your brain
changes to allow you to grow and grasp new opportunities,
they both have a good side and a bad side.
And the classic example of a bad side of neuroplasticity
is obsessing over an X after a breakup, because what
you're saying to your brain is this is what people do.
You know, you trust them, and then they leave you,

(16:24):
and you just remind yourself of all the times that
you should have seen the signs, and then you know
all the times that it went wrong. That's also inducing
neuroplasticity and potentially manifestation in your brain, because if you
don't make a change after that, your relationship pattern will
stay the same and you'll reinforce it further with more
breakups and more you know, sort of choices of partners

(16:47):
aren't ideal for you. The third one is the magnetic
desire that I already discussed, which means that it has
to be really authentic to you but also aligned in
simple terms in your head, your heart, and your gut.
But in the source, I talk about six ways of thinking,
which are logical, emotional, physical, intuitive, motivational, and creative. So

(17:08):
if you think of something that you want and you
ask yourself in six different questions, you know, why do
I want this?

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Logically?

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Why do I want it? Intuitively? And you can get
a really good answer to those, then it's likely that
you know you will be able to manifest that. Then
there's patience, which is to do with neuroplasticity. So until
we had sophisticated scanning technologies, a lot of this work,
cognitive science work was all thought to be psychological rather
than neurological. So it would kind of be like, oh,

(17:38):
you know, Jay, you're not mentally strong enough. You gave
up too quickly, and it would kind of infer an
intangible psychological weakness that is kind of your fault. And
I think that's another criticism of manifestation as well, that
if it doesn't work, then there's something wrong with you.
If you understand that it's actually physical work when you're
changing something, when you're striving for something, connecting up neurons

(18:01):
or nerve cells in your brain that weren't connected previously.
You may even be growing new nerve cells from little
embryonic you know, baby nerve cells that then connect up
with ones that already exist. And you may also be
adding an insulating coat around existing neural pathways to make
them faster, to make them more efficient. So the patient's

(18:24):
piece is because a lot of hard work goes on.
You know, that feeling of I'm trying to manifest but
nothing's happening. That's in the patient's piece, Because when you
get to a critical mass, of neurons that have created
a new pathway that is stronger than the pathway you
had before. So let's say it's just the things like
that never happened for me. Pathway changes to a well, actually,

(18:46):
I've seen Jay do it, so maybe it could happen
for me. Pathway that takes a lot of effort, But
once you get to the critical mass of enough neurons,
suddenly it feels like everything's easy and everything's manifesting. And
I do feel like people have to get a taste
of that before, you know, at least once with a
quick win, to have the courage to take it to
the next level. And the last two, which I didn't

(19:10):
expand on too much in the source, are harmony and
universal connection. And harmony is kind of also to do
with the fact that you're aligned in yourself, but it
also means that it should be aligned like with the world,
like you're not doing some harm to get what you want.
And universal connection is about the fact that you know
we are all into related. If you believe that you

(19:31):
can achieve something because there are enough resources in the
world for everyone, then you should also be generous and
pay it forward.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
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to I'm just thinking that so much of our psychology
has been made so limited and scarce. When I think

(21:50):
about the way we talk about our relationship with money.
You may have grown up in a family that says
we have just enough to survive, or we don't need more,
we have all we need, and those things become so hardwired,
and therefore as we get older, it becomes really hard
to change them, right, and so that also applies to love.

(22:13):
It's like, oh, if someone says, oh, my parents had
a bad marriage, like, I'm just scared I'm going to
repeat it, and then that becomes their narrative when we're
talking about changing those Does every thought count? Does every
thought matter? Like, talk me through that.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, absolutely, every single thought matters. And that's why there's
an old Buddhist saying that has replace every negative thought
with a positive thought. And neuroplasticity completely back set up
because the way we rewire our brains is not that
we so basically we cannot undo a negative thought pattern
or a negative relationship pattern. We have to overwrite it

(22:49):
with a new one. So rather than focusing on the negatives,
which is, you know, to do with that abundance piece,
it's better to work out what do I need to
do differently to not keep repeating this obstacle or challenge
that keeps coming up in my life. So the way
that it physically works, the process that underpins neuroplastic is
underpinned by neuroplasticity is a four step process, and it

(23:14):
starts with raised awareness, which is kind of what you've
already said, which is really monitoring your thoughts, understanding what
the beliefs are that are underneath driving those thoughts, and
making you make the decisions that you make in the
real world. And I would suggest that people spend at
least a month monitoring that with journaling, maybe talking therapy,
maybe talking to a friend, as long as you know

(23:36):
you're very clear that they that their agenda for you
kind of doesn't, you know, affect that. And then the
second stage is focused attention. So that is then let's
say you notice a particular pattern that you have. Let's
say it's around money. Notice the next time again for
a month, probably that you don't buy something because you
don't feel you deserve it, because you think it's too expensive,
or you wait for something to go into the sale

(23:59):
and then you miss out on getting it, you know,
So things like that, any money behaviors or love behaviors, whichever,
And at first, don't try to change anything, but just
notice it, like maybe straight after it happened. Then try
to in time get yourself to notice when it's happening
and see if you can reframe it. Maybe you can,
maybe you can't, and then to try to get yourself

(24:21):
to the stage where you think. Normally, I wouldn't buy
this because I don't think I deserve it. But today
I'm going to treat myself because I believe in abundance
and I believe that I will achieve the career aims
that I have that will make me able to afford that.
The third stage is deliberate practice, which is that you
regularly practice the new desired behavior until it becomes so

(24:42):
ingrained in your brain that it's actually easier for you
to do that than default to the old behavior. And
the last part, it's not really one of the stages
it takes you through the whole process, is accountability. So
how do you hold yourself accountable? Some people have a
coach or a therapist or a partner that might hold
them accountable. If you don't, and you need to do
it by yourself, then a vision board is a really

(25:03):
good way of doing it. Because you've clearly stated what
you want, you can see if you've got it or not.
At the end of the year, you can say I
manifested sixty percent of the things that I wanted. And
I also use an app called Habit share where I
record twelve micro habits each year and I can track them,
I can share them if I want to. I found
that was better for me than New Year's resolutions, because

(25:26):
I could just take two or three of them and
try to bring them into my talkit each quarter of
the year, and then by the end of the year
I would find like eight of ten or ten of
those were habits already. So I kind of do that
alongside my bigger goals.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
I find like when people think about this, one of
the things that kind of keeps tripping them up is
Jack can say it, and I can think it, but
I don't believe it. Yeah, right, And I'm sure you've
heard that a million times, that fear of like, okay, well,
you know, I don't believe I can start living my
passion and I don't believe that I can and do

(26:00):
what I love for work, or I don't believe that
I have it's possible for someone like me to achieve
whatever else it may be. And then I can say
it to myself before I go to bed, but I
don't believe it because I don't believe it. I stopped
doing it after two to three days. What's the difference
between someone who's practicing this in a way that it
works and we'll get onto action in a second, but

(26:22):
at least practicing the belief change because I'm fully with you.
By the way, I remember, I had a mentor that
used to constantly say to me. You'd say, Jay, you're
an entrepreneur. You're an entrepreneur, You're an entrepreneur. At this time,
I was working a full time job nine to five
and getting paid whatever it was, and he'd keep telling me,
But like, Jay, you're an entrepreneur. I'd keep telling hm.
I'd be like, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. No,

(26:44):
I'm not I'm an artist, I'm a creative. I'm definitely
not an entrepreneur. The last thing I want to do
is run a business. Like that's just not who I am.
And if you asked me, I would have said, I'm
a very self aware person at this point in my life.
It wasn't that I didn't reflect enough. I felt like
I really knew who I was and I was like
this is And then it was only when I was
required to have to be an entrepreneur did I have

(27:06):
to shift into that gear and become one. But if
you still ask me today, I'm like, I'm an entrepreneur,
but I much prefer being a creative and an artist
and a thinker. That's that's where I thrive, if you
ask me. Yeah, but I did something when I was
required to do it. So I see you smiling, and
so I want to hear your reaction to what I'm sharing.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Four things there, so I hope I can remember them all.
The first one is that there's a step before what
you said, which is that some people aren't even aware
that they don't think they deserve it. So well, I
discovered something quite by accident, which was a theme of
people selecting images for their vision board, placing them onto
the board, even spending the time to like shuffle them

(27:45):
around make sure it all like looks and feels right,
and then telling me that they never stuck them down.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
And I just had a light bulb moment and I said,
you haven't stuck them down, so you don't believe you
deserve them, And the person, just like you know, had
a bit of a meltdown. And so every time i've
heard someone do you know a variation on that theme,
I've talked about deserving this, So so like even that
has to be known in the first place.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Right well, we think it's too ridiculous or too out
there or right.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Next, I do think it's about who you surround yourself with.
So I started smiling when you said I had a mentor,
because that already means that you've sought out someone that's
going to challenge your thinking, that's going to push you
to be your best. And my version of that is that,
like I said, I spent nine years at university to
become a medical doctor in the NHS. I did not
believe that I could do anything else. I didn't I

(28:34):
had a vocational degree. I didn't have a more general
degree where I could say I could go and you know,
apply to do something else. My best friend, whose kids
I was just babysitter, she had read biochemistry at Oxford,
she'd worked in the dot com explosion, and then she
just announced to our sort of closest circle one day
at dinner, I'm going to give it all up and

(28:55):
go and study a master's in sculpture. And I remember
thinking that's incredible, But I could never do that. And
it was only kind of like one and a half
or two years later that I then said I'm leaving medicine,
and I remember my brother said to me, I'm really
proud of you, but I could never do that. So
it's almost like there's a chain of totally yeah. And

(29:17):
if you were around people who were only doing what
you do, who also had self limiting beliefs, who you know,
had maybe some things even against being entrepreneurial, you might
have stayed stuck where you were. And then the next
stage is a lot of people try and then give up. Right,
And I'm not saying this is for everyone, but when

(29:38):
I changed career, I went from having a you know,
not very high but stable salary to having nothing. And
that was the case for quite a while. And a
few people said to me, please just go and like
work in the hospital for one weekend, You'll be able
to pay your rent and like not you know, kind
of worry about money so much, and a lot of

(29:59):
people hold down part time job when they're becoming an entrepreneur.
But I said, if I do that, I will feel
like I failed. So for me, I had to burn
my boats like there was no way back. I had
to succeed. And like I said, I'm not saying that's
right for everyone, but everyone will have their version of
the thing that will really make them say I cannot fail.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
That initial challenge of like you're saying that, even becoming
aware that we don't believe we deserve something or something's
meant for us, it can be such an uncomfortable discovery
because it almost starts indicating towards the fact that there
are past experiences, past traumas, past relationships that you now

(30:42):
have to go back to and uncover and unlearn and
understand because you've almost been living in a sense of
darkness in that area of your life. And I think
that can be really disconcerting because it requires so much
time to actually and an energy to actually go back
there and excavate and look at it and face it

(31:03):
head on. What does signs have to say about how
can we look at our past? How can we look
at our wiring in a healthy way rather than a
judgmental way, Because we could just turn around and say,
I'm the worst that I've been thinking this way, you
start criticizing yourself. I've wasted so much time. I always
hear even sometimes I hear people and like, I wish

(31:24):
I started when I was eighteen. I wish I started
when I was twenty five, and there's this regret that's
underlying that feeling. Even if they did change, how do
we look at our past and look at change in
a healthier way rather than a negative way.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
I think one of the things that you're talking about
is this idea of having really in depth psychotherapy and
having to uncover every trauma in your life to get
to the point where you're healed enough to move forward.
I am obviously a fan of therapy, you know, for
many reasons, but I don't particularly think that you have
to uncover every trauma in your life to be able

(31:57):
to move forward. The career changed I made in factors
to coaching, So coaching tends to be more forward looking
or you know, sort of positive looking unless there's, you know,
some kind of major trauma. I don't think it's necessary
to dig everything up in like years of psychotherapy. But
there are some sort of models in science that can

(32:20):
be quite useful for people, whether you know, it could
just be self discovery. So there's one called Ghosts in
the Executive Suite, and that talks about the childhood systems
that you grew up in and the fact that the
wiring that was embedded in the first seven and then
also the first fourteen years of your life are likely
to be very non conscious now in adulthood, but still

(32:42):
driving a lot of your behaviors. And so the business
side of that is called in the executive suite. So
it's looking at CEOs who are behaving in a certain
way because of those but it can apply to anyone's life,
and it looks at things like the boundaries and the
values and the secrets and the sort of identities that
you had as a child. So you know, you may
have had a home where everyone was welcome to drop

(33:03):
in and they would just be added into the family
meal and they could stay the night. And I may
have been, you know, grown up in a home where
you had to plan everything in advance. If someone was
coming over, then you know, the people would make sure
there was enough food and make sure that a bed
was made in advance, and all this kind of thing.
And then values tends to be a lot around money,

(33:23):
So you know, you may have grown up in a
household where people say money is a bad thing. It's
not good to have too much of it. You know,
even in many religions they say that if you're excessively wealthy,
that your chances of going to heaven are kind of lower.
So you know, there's a lot of that rhetoric in
our society. Identification is about things like, oh, you're just

(33:43):
like your father, or you're just like you know, your
uncle used to be. Secrets is we never talk about
that alcoholic gun call kind of thing, and roles includes
things like where you the peacemaker or the go between,
and all of those sorts of things may influence you
later in life without you realizing it. But there is
self exploration and other work that you can do with

(34:05):
people to help you uncover that. And also the really
good news is that Freud talked about stages of child
psychosocial development and things like trauma, neglect, abandonment, separation from parents' illness,
and described in great detail what would go wrong with
you for the rest of your life if you experienced

(34:26):
any of those things. And then later a psychologist called
Ericson came along and talked about the vice and the virtue.
So he said, if you have a childhood trauma at
a certain age, then this is what could go wrong,
but this is also your opportunity for something to go
really right. And what I find is that a lot

(34:46):
of the CEOs or really successful entrepreneurs that I work
with had their first childhood disruption between the ages of
five and seven, where the vice and the virtue are
inferiority or industry and industry meaning hard works of being industrious.
So that means if you did have a trauma at
that age, then you could either spend the rest of

(35:06):
your life feeling inferior and undeserving, or you could say,
I'm going to work so hard, I'm going to get
myself out of this situation of poverty forever. I'm going
to be self sufficient. I'm going to be financially independent,
you know. And there's several other trust, mistrust, and you know,
other kind of vices and virtues that people can look up.
It's all on the internet.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yeah, that kind of opening of the idea that you
went through this, but it could also be an opportunity
of this impediment could also be an invitation. Like that
kind of understanding I find to be really powerful, and
I would agree with you. I think the most purposeful
people I've met are people who went through a pain
point and now they don't want other people to go

(35:48):
through that pain, or they want to help people through
that pain, and that's what created their ability to do that,
whereas someone else who may not have had that pain
or may not have had that challenge almost can it
sometimes feel less clear or a bit more lost because
they don't know what the meaning of their life is
or where they stand.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
Well, I think what often happens with those people is
that you know, life's just okay, life's fine, you're married,
you know, your kids are healthy, You're going to this,
you know, sort of regular day job, and you've kind
of forgotten what you dreamed of when you were a child,
what you're you know, maybe you've just given up your
real passion because it's fine to have this kind of

(36:29):
quite easy life. And often it does take a later
disruption like a divorce or a bereavement to really make
people rethink that. And so, you know, a big example
that affected a lot of people is a financial crisis.
So a lot of people in financial services lost their jobs.
And then said, actually, I always wanted to be a
teacher or a journalist, but I also wanted a more

(36:52):
expensive lifestyle, so I didn't make that choice, and now
I have the opportunity to do what I really want
to do. So I guess it depends on how you
define wealth, because wealth can be having a lot of money,
but it can also be waking up every day and
doing what.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
You love, yeah, or having a lot of free time,
or whatever it may be. When people are trying I
feel like we live in a time right now where
and you alluded to this earlier, and I'm kind of
going back to it. We live at a time where
there's a lot of projected goals and expectations, and a
lot of people can feel like they're so far away

(37:29):
from their own goals because there's goals from other people
around them. Now. My mentor I'm still good friends with them,
knew me very well, and so he wasn't projecting his
entrepreneurial thing. He was seeing something that I couldn't. But
a lot of the times, there's like society like, oh,
let's live in hustle culture. Everyone needs to be an entrepreneur,
everyone needs to be a CEO, everyone needs to like
there's a lot of performance culture out there, in productivity culture,

(37:53):
and I find that a lot of people either struggle
with that weight of that expectation or they actually curl
up into a ball and kind of don't want to
go anywhere and do anything, and it makes them hide
from that as well, because it's almost like everyone's just
pushing them to be more ambitious and be more driven.
At the same time, I would love to understand the

(38:15):
psychology of being needing to open up to more challenges
and more opportunities as just a healthy way of living.
So if someone's stuck in that space of you know,
Tara and Jay, I'm just you know, I'm kind of
stuck because I do want more. I'm trying to get
there that I believe I deserve it, but then I
don't know if that's what I really want, or if

(38:35):
it's what my parents want, or what social media wants
me to want, or what my friends are doing.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
I just want to go back to something because I
only actually twigged when you said, Tara and Jay that
my brother's name is Jay. Oh no way, yeah, And
I didn't put it together like that. And I wanted
to say something that he said to me when I
changed career and I was like in my mid thirties seven.
He said the best time to plant an acorn was
two hundred years ago, but the second best time is now.

(39:00):
So for anyone that's saying it's too late, you know,
I regret things. I think that's a really amazing saying.
And then before you started really like posing your question
and I understood like where you were going with it,
I thought, oh, I wanted to tell you about at
the start of the pandemic. When I said, I sort
of like saw that, I thought there could be a
really big mental health crisis. Quite quickly, I would say,

(39:24):
within like a month or two. I thought this is
also an opportunity for a spiritual revolution or evolution. And
so in all the research I've done since kind of
the end of the pandemic, at the official end, I
guess which is more about ancient wisdom and neuroesthetics. I
believe that returning to ancient practices like chanting, humming, drumming, singing,

(39:49):
and neuroesthetics is neuro arts. It's the science of why
beauty and art and creativity and nature are so healthy
for us. So if you yourself in nature, if you
spend time making or beholding creative things like either singing
or going to listen to a concert, or sketching or

(40:10):
going to an art gallery, etc. That actually opens up
your mind in a way that the modern world and
all that noise around you that you've just described doesn't
let us. So that allows a level of introspection. And
there's so many other things in that category that you
know one can do, but that really helps you to
separate your inner voice from all the words around you

(40:33):
that are telling you what you should do. And I
also always say there's a certain age, and it could
be different for different people, whether there's no more should
you know you've got to an age now where what
your parents should said you should do, or you think
you should do, what your friends are doing is not
It cannot be applicable forever because that is probably the
one thing you'll regret on your death bed, right.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
So.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Taking that time. But it is so hard because you know,
I still hear people saying, oh, I go for my
nature walk, but I listen to podcast at the same time.
That's not giving you time for introspection. And I'm sure
you're one of the few people that will agree with
me that we aren't doing it like enough or any being.
We're just always doing I often say to people, when
do you sit down and actually do nothing? And I

(41:16):
think that people maybe not if they know me well,
but if they look at my career, would say she
probably never sits down and does nothing. I do a
lot of sitting down and doing nothing. We do, I think,
you know, to access yourself nature is a massive mirror
for us, so time and nature, you know, and the
science for that in the last few years has just

(41:38):
rocketed interestingly. At the same time, the science around having
a purpose that transcends yourself, so not one that earns
the money that you need to just live your life,
not even one that just makes you happy and satisfied
in yourself, but one that is more altruistic is actually
very expanding for our consciousness. And I think that's probably

(42:01):
what we're really getting at a conversation that I don't
have with many people, but I feel like I could
have with you, which is that we need to sort
of be able to access altered states of consciousness to
really understand what our soul's purpose is in this life.
And breath work is a great way of doing that too. Obviously,
there's a popular sort of trend at the moment for

(42:21):
plant medicine, and you know, I'm watching the research on
that at Johns Hopkins really carefully, and there's a lot
of positive stuff around it, But what I'd really like
to say to people is it's nothing that you can't
achieve through time and nature, breath work, meditation, nourishing your
body with really healthy food, sleeping really well, and crucially

(42:41):
having that really like positive, meaningful community around you.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
What's your understanding so far about the soul's purpose of
what you've been able to discover and cover on this journey.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
I did do some research into near death experiences and
terminal lucidity and dark retreats. The original scientific intro that
was to understand the nature of consciousness more in terms
of how separate it can be from the body. So
if we look at the research or near death experiences,
then we see that people who had the physical signs,

(43:13):
as a medical doctor, I would say they were dead.
So whether it was the amount of time that your
heart had stop beating or your brain waves had gone flat,
have then somehow which we can't explain, been able to
become conscious in that body again and describe an experience
that they've had whilst seemingly not in their body. What's

(43:34):
really interesting about that research is you don't have to
have had that experience yourself, because people will say, well,
you know, Okay, that's great for those people if it
made them understand their soul's purpose. But we can't all
have that, although you actually can if you go and
do a dark retreat, which is why I then listen
to those And you know, in the ancient cultures like
the Greeks and Egyptians, they used to bury people for
days to mimic death, and then when they uncovered them,

(43:58):
they were the people that became like the mystics and
the seers of those communities. So again, just things that
we've forgotten. But if you you know, there's an amazing
book called After by doctor Bruce Grayson, or if you
just like look into the research around near death experiences.
Most common themes that people say are I feel more compassionate,

(44:19):
I feel more connected, I feel more grateful, I want
to do things to help people, and I just see
beauty like in everything that's around me. And that's supported
by the modern science of neuro aesthetics. We can all
choose to do that. You know, we don't have to
have a near death experience to do that. If we're
living more like that for them, I think we get

(44:39):
a greater clarity around the reason that we were put
on this earth. I mean, I think the biggest blessing
any of us could have is to wake up one
day and think, I know why I was put onto
this earth. I know what I need to be doing.
And it's not always going to be necessarily the thing
that just gives you personal satisfaction. You know, it could
be your calling, could be something quite different to that.
Terminal loose is super super interesting as a I mean,

(45:02):
I did my PhD in neuroscience because I thought I
wanted to become a neurologist, but then I became a psychiatrist,
which is also super fascinating in terms of things like
you can hear voices that aren't there, and you know
your mood can change like you know, not in your control.
But interminal lucidity is when people who either have had
dementia for a significant period of time or have had

(45:22):
a stroke and so parts of their brain are physically
altered or damaged chemically or physically, and they have lost
the personality and level of consciousness that their closest friends
and family knew in them can suddenly become completely lucid.
So we've got stories of you know, parents who no
longer recognize their children and their grandchildren just suddenly saying

(45:46):
one day, oh, Jay darling, come here, I want to, like,
you know, give you a motherly message. And it's usually
a sign that they will pass away within one to
twenty four hours. But there's no physical explanation how they
could know the names and react in a completely maternal
or paternal way towards an adult child that they didn't

(46:08):
recognize for several years. So that starts to make you think,
are we actually that connected to our body? And if
we're not, what does that mean? And I don't have
all the answers.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
But fascinating. Yeah, no, sorry, I could carry out.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Well I I was just going to say. It makes
you think that what happens in this life and in
this physical world and on this material plane can't be
the be all and end all of everything. And if
it's not, what does that mean about how I want
to live? And to me, that brings me back to
I want to live a life that's guided by love.
And you know, I don't mean romantic love by that necessarily,

(46:44):
although that could be included. If I've got a dilemma,
if I've got a difficult decision to make, if I'm
feeling like I'm in a really challenging situation, then I
always go back to love and gratitude, and I've now
included observing beauty as part of that too, because what
they're all doing is moving us into the oxytocin state,
which is our highest state and really the only state

(47:06):
from which we can live our best life. So it's
really about doing everything that you can to move yourself
away from stress and towards love, and overly listening to
that chatter around you is pretty much going to do
the opposite. So it is a little bit about liberating
ourselves from that, I think, at least for moments.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
When you talked about spending time in nature, you talked
about chanting, you talked about humming, you talked about the
art class, the kind of more analogue tasks as well.
What do those tasks have in common from what's happening
scientifically inside of us, like biologically, like chemically, what's happening
that's similar across those or is it different?

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Well, you know, I have this thing about if I
don't know the exact answer, I always take it back
to evolution. Sure, So what we know about our ancestors
was that they had scarce resources, and it was all
about survival and reproduction. So in terms of like, what
was our live's purpose then it was literally live long
enough to have children and pass on your genes, and
then it didn't matter if you get got eaten by

(48:09):
a saber toothed tiger. But those same ancestors who naturally
in their life to survive, walked barefoot in nature, sat
around a fire at night, looked at the stars in
the sky at night, also chose with those scarce resources
to make cave paintings, to dance around that fire, to sing,

(48:32):
to hum, to drum, to chant. And we don't know why,
but the only conclusion that we can draw is that
there was a benefit to a survival benefit. And what
we know now is and again, some of these activities
are luxuries. I completely get that. But when we make
or behold any of those activities that we in the

(48:54):
brain becomes more hyper connected. We get The benefit of
novel experience is we open up more connections in the
creative parts of our brain, which actually allow us to
solve complex problems better, to think more flexibly, to override
our biases, and regulate our emotions better, all of which

(49:16):
obviously you know, survival advantages because if you think about
just you know, on the very most basic level, the
implication of that in a relationship. You know, if we
were in a relationship and I was much more able
to regulate my emotions to solve problems with you, to
like overcome any biases that I might have about the
way that you're behaving, it's obviously the relationship is going

(49:37):
to survive better. And one of the pieces of research
I've really looked into from the neuro esthetics is called
shared trait vulnerability, and it's about the fact that people
with psychopathologies like schizophrenia also tend to be more creative
than the general population. So if you think about some
of the symptoms of psychotic illnesses, it includes things like

(50:01):
magical thinking or to states of consciousness, you know, perhaps
access to I want to put this really carefully, you know,
sort of data and signs that we are choosing to
ignore in the real world because our brain is filtering
out information to help us survive, you know, as people
who don't have a mental health issue. So one hypothesis

(50:26):
could be that you could use creativity and all of
those things are creative things to open up more of
your consciousness. And if you have a high IQ and
you're mentally resilient, but you can also do that. I
just think it's so exciting to think about what we
could do with our minds that again, it is probably

(50:46):
stuff that we knew that we've forgotten, but in our
lifetimes or in the modern world, we haven't been practicing.
And that is also one of the hypotheses that comes
out of the research or near death experiences, which is
that our brains are actually filtering down our minds rather
than the other way.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Around, filtering down our minds meanings.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
So our consciousness is capable of a lot more than
what our brain allows us to do to survive in
this material world.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
And would the brain ever allow for more or is
it just so against survival that we couldn't experience it here?

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Well, the easiest way for me to demonstrate that to
you is it it allows for more when you take
psychedelic or plant medication right right, And we know that
a lot of like create. Our breathwork, for example, allows
some altered states of consciousness, and so does other breath work.
Time and nature alone can allow some aughtered states of
consciousness or expansion of our consciousness, so clearly it can,

(51:42):
and I don't know if we're afraid of it, or
you know, there's some kind of survival or societal mechanism
that prevents it. I mean, if you think about the
tides in interest in psychedelics and how it's been shut
down every time, it does make you wonder about the
reasons for that. It's so interesting to be in one
of these rising tides at the moment and see what
actually happens.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean I feel like, as
you referred to earlier, meditation has been such a powerful
form of reaching altered states of consciousness and breath work
you referred to nature for sure. I mean I've had
the fortune of spending some time in some special, special
places both in India and just this year I got
to go to Bhutan as well.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Oh wow.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
And you know it was definitely went to places that
I felt they were it almost felt like there were
places in the material world that were already in different realms,
Like it almost felt that way around. Does that make sense? Yeah,
Like places I went to in South India, I definitely
felt that because some of these temples are like thousands
and thousands of years old, and they were built with that.

(52:48):
I mean they're built with that kind of like Vedic
mathematics and just the way they're the architecture and everything,
kind of how we marvel at the Pyramids, the Mayan Ruine, Yeah,
the Mayan Route, it's that kind of those those I
saw those temples in South India, which I guess have
less publicity in PR but when I went there, I
was like, Wow, this is just you know, there's this

(53:08):
I remember this one kind of hallway and it's almost
I forget the exact name they've given it, but it
almost feels like a portal. And it's just pillars and
pillars and pillars for so long, but it almost is
seen as this transitionary portal. And so you kind of
find these places in the world that have other worldly,

(53:29):
other realm aspects that you almost feel like an automatic
sense of connection to a part of you that's beyond.
And having had those experiences, it's amazing to me as
well so many of my friends who've taken psychedelics or
clients that have practiced, that no one ever comes back
and believes that this four dimensional world is all we have,

(53:52):
that that there is more. What's the benefit of that
or what is what do you believe Do you believe
that's the next stage of human evolution? Is that spiritual dimension?
Or is that what we're leaning towards, hinting towards? Is
that how you say it progressing?

Speaker 1 (54:08):
I mean, that's the feeling I got, you know, when
I thought that things were just going to go downhill
for humanity, I kind of quite quickly thought there's an
opportunity for it to like evolve to another level. And personally,
being a medical doctor and a scientist, I look at
people like Deepak Chopra, Daniel Siegel, Bruce Lipton, and you know,

(54:30):
because they're quite a lot older than me, I remember thinking,
you know, when I was still a doctor that how
could they be saying some of the things that they're saying,
And like, I don't think I would ever be able
to say that in my career. But I've just said
some of the things that I've just said to you,
and I just wanted to add that again in my research,
I completely agree with what you said about certain places.
But apparently there's three ways of seeing, like a thinning

(54:52):
of the veil, if you like, you know, let's say
we let's just hypothesize that we believe that there are
spiritual planes or astral planes. Have you seen that Disney
movie Cocoa, I've seen you haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
I thought you're going to say, Soul, I've seen that,
but I've not seen Coco.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Coco is about the Mexican Day of the Dead, so
that's obviously an example of a time of year when
the veil is thin. But a lot of people around
the world believe that some of the places that you've described,
and Ibitha and Hawaii are vortex is where the veale
is thin and you can maybe like access a different
spiritual plain in yourself or you know, perhaps even more tangibly.

(55:27):
And then there are also certain people, so you know,
obvious examples of the Delai Lama, and I know people
who've been touched by him physically touched by him have
said that they saw the interconnectedness of everything and it
changed the way that they live their life. So I
think what you and I I really like saying here
is that there are certain things, activities that we can

(55:48):
indulge in that can change the way that you look
at life. And I mentioned dark retreats, which I don't
think a lot of people have heard of, but obviously
silent retreats are a way of doing that that more
people I think you know, have heard of.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
Yeah, no, no, and dark retreats too. I think it's
interesting that all of it's trying to get us to
just be, like it all starts with this sense of
just being. But some of these activities I think for
a lot of people they seem so foreign, right, Like
I think dark retreats him foreign, silent retreats him far.
And obviously they're quite big differences to the way people live.

(56:22):
And even things like chanting and humming and being in
nature like those, I think coming from an Indian background,
like chanting is somewhat far more accessible or normal or
a practice that you grew up with, whereas in the
Western world that wouldn't necessarily have been in practice. What
has been the neurological impact of chanting. I'm intrigued by
that because that's always been something I've been fascinated by it.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Yeah, so I will tell you that. But what I
do now, which is just much more accessible to people,
is I just listened to chanting on I found a
YouTube channel. I just listened to it. I have it
on in the background. I don't particularly chant myself now,
to be honest, but if you've got it on in
the background and it's creating a certain like vibration and
resonance just in your home, which just literally you know,

(57:06):
it's nothing magical. It's through sound waves is having an
impact on We see that sound can have an impact
on water, and we're mostly made up of water, so
it's having an impact on you and what we actually
what actually happens in your heart and your brain is
something called entrainment. So particularly in the research shows that
groups of people who are together, who are subjected to

(57:27):
either chanting or certain pulsations of light, that their heart
rates and their brain waves will synchronize, and this makes
them much more likely to cooperate, to see themselves as
not other, and basically to just be in that oxytocin

(57:47):
state of love and trust more.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Than well, I didn't know about the science behind that.
It's so funny because one of my teachers would always
tell us, so, if you have a conflict with anyone
in the monastery, you should dance and chant together.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Really that to where he would say, so your face
when you went.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
He would always say that, and he would always tell
everyone that it's like if you're having a conflict with
another monk or someone in the monastery, or there's something
you should dance and chant together. And we'd always thought
it was like a nice cute thing, like we didn't,
you know, you don't realize just how much you've recognized
there's spiritual depth behind it. But to even hear the
idea that it's actually creating trust on a chemical level

(58:24):
is pretty far out, because well, it's.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
Clearly creating coherence in terms of you wouldn't chant out
of tune with each other, which correct one of you
will kind of fallen, you know, or you both do it.
Same with the dancing, But once you're doing that, your
heart rate and your brain waves will change accordingly.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
And that simple act of doing it, even subconsciously, is
going to bleed into when you're trying to consciously operate. Yeah,
I mean, that's fascinating from a romantic perspective too, I guess,
and from a relationship perspective of how often a couple
spending time together in nature, or how often a couple
spending time in the same frequency and vibration together. Is

(59:03):
there any research around that that suggests the same for
romantic love.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
So those things I think are kind of given the
two examples that you've just stated, But we know that
now most of this research is done in vols little
they're quite cute, they're rodents, but they're quite cute. But
it's also been done in humans, which is, for example,
that if you see your partner in distress, your cortisol
levels will go up, your heart rate will go up,

(59:28):
you will start sweating curally. You will then seek to
move towards your partner and soothe them with physical touch.
We know that people who are in hospital in pain
that when their partner physically touches them, that their heart
rate decreases, their blood pressure decreases, and they are in
less pain. If the couple are you know, a really

(59:52):
well bonded couple. There's lots of bits of research around that.
So it's definitely both the fact that if you do
things together like time and nature or chanting or dancing,
that that will make you more coherent. It's also the
fact that when you see or experience lack of coherence
with you know, and especially the partner who's seeing the

(01:00:13):
other one kind of out of coherence, that there is
a move to go towards them and soothe them, and
it's and involves physical touch, which, like I said, can
reduce pain in your partner.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
You kind of talked about these two ideas and even
what we're talking about now is this kind of spectrum
that exists between stress and love. And you were talking
about how, like, you know, you're trying to move towards
love in your life, and you said, not simply of
romantic love, just love as a force and as an
energy source. And you were saying that, you know, stress,
of course sits at the polar opposite of that, and

(01:00:46):
so much of our decisions today are based on stress naturally,
whether it's stress to pay the bills, stress to survive,
stress to take care of the people we love, stress
because someone we love has been diagnosed with the disease.
Like there's so much stress, and it's almost like, how
could you ever infuse love with that? What have you seen?
When is that even possible to measure what it's been

(01:01:10):
like to infuse stressful situations with love?

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
So I just want to go back and just like
clarify something. So the stress hormone cortisol correlates with five emotions,
which we will experience if we're under stress, so that's fear, anger, discust, shame,
and sadness. And then the bonding hormone oxytocin correlates with love, trust, joy,
and excitement. And in between those two is surprise, which

(01:01:37):
correlates with nora adrenaline, and it can flip people from
one side to the other quite quickly, so like you know,
sort of you know, when like someone jumps out at
you from behind the door. But the more positive side
of that is that if you know, you asked me
a really surprising question and it made me think really differently,
then it could make me stop being nervous and think,
oh wow, this is really interesting. I'm curious. That's you know,
go down this road. So the thing about those those

(01:02:00):
two ends of the spectrum is that they're like a
seesaurce so they can't coexist at the same time. So
the more you have trained your brain to go into
the oxytocin mode, the less of the time it can
possibly be in the stress mode. Physical exercise is something
that we see if we use heart rate variability technology

(01:02:22):
that after you've done physical exercise, there's a time period
where that you're actually in a non phase, but you
cannot be stressed, so there are things that we can do.
I know you're talking about really difficult situations for people,
you know, how do you infuse that with love? But
I wonder if that's bringing us back almost full circle
to manifestation and visualization, which is that with all the

(01:02:44):
forms of loss that I see people going through, loss
of sense of self, can't trust yourself, breakdown of relationships
at home, at work, in community, and even loss through death.
If we believe some of the things that you and
I have just spoken about from near death experiences in
terminal lucidity, then I think that's the reason that it's

(01:03:06):
important to expand your consciousness and have more spiritual beliefs,
because there is a choice there too, to make a
gift out of a really bad situation. I can completely
see why people's lives get ruined by a loss and
they feel regretful and bitter for the rest of their life.
But I also think that it's possible if you can

(01:03:29):
find some kind of legacy or learning or gift to
make something good come out of the bad thing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Yeah. No, that reminds me of Edithigue's book The Gift
and the Work of Victor Frankcorn, Yeah, and that idea
of that future motion of how how does what I
do now, how will that make me feel in the future,
and who will I be able to help and serve
in the future even if I can't help anyone now.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
And I think there's another point from both of them,
and also Nelson Mandela, which is about the mental prison
that we create. And you know, I know that Victor
Frankel spoke about that a lot, but I really love
the quote from Mandela where he says, I knew when
I walked away from prison that if I didn't let
go of my bitterness, I'd be in prison for the
rest of my life. And I find all of those

(01:04:21):
things really inspiring. And I've looked at a lot of
the science that we've discussed today to help myself understand
how you can possibly override that when there are so
many difficult things in life, and to try to bring
that information to people. And really, and I'm not just
saying this, That's why I was so thrilled when you
invited me to come onto a podcast, because I think,

(01:04:42):
you know, you've just got such an amazing platform, and
I'm just so grateful to you for letting me, like,
you know, share some of my findings.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
I'm so tight that the feeling is very mutual. I
was so excited to have a platform that I could
have this conversation with you, and that you agreed to it.
And I want to make sure, out of just my
expect for your work, that you feel you're being able
to touch on the things that you really deeply believe
in and talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Yeah, well I'm talking about some things that I actually
don't normally really talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
That. That's that's brilliant. Okay, good, yeah, good, No, what
is it I guess that you're most fascinated by right now,
like something that you're personally obsessed with. I imagine that when
you're in discovery mode, just as when someone's healing not healed,
So in a scientist sense, it's like when you're just
when you're learning, not teaching. Like, what is that for

(01:05:29):
you right now? Well?

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
I think it's broadly covered by a lot of the
topics that we've mentioned, But I think the tension that
I'm interested in is how far you take these things, because,
as you well know, you could take these things so
far that you just like run off into the wilderness.
And become a monk and and just disengage from real life. Right, Yeah,
I think what I'm really curious about is how far

(01:05:52):
do you take these things until you get to a
point where you have some level of understanding or potentially
night where you can live this life to the fullest.
That I'm obsessed with at the moment.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Yeah, and I am too. When I'm listening to you.
I always think about how does something stop being a
fad and a trend and the moment, and how does
it become a real shift in lifestyle and a commitment
to whatever practice it is that you feel is valuable
because I find that as humans are always looking for

(01:06:28):
the next thing to entertain us, and you can also
have a lot of spiritual entertainment, and you can also
have a lot of purposeful entertainment, and it just becomes
another thing that you kind of use in order to escape,
as opposed to, No, this is what I'm dedicating my
life to, and this is what I'm committing my life to.
If that makes sense exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
I think that's just another way of saying what I
was trying to say.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Yeah, Yeah, I just I was just trying to say
to understand that, because Yeah, I think for me it's
been really interesting having learned a very ancient philosophy and
then grappling with trying to make it make sense in
the real life that I live now has been such
a difficult, beautiful, graceful, awkward path to walk. And I

(01:07:15):
don't think I figured it out. I'm still walking that
path and trying to make sense of it, but I
know that underlying it, and you talked about that, you
alluded to this this idea of having a purposeful life
based on service being a place that we're all trying
to get to. I think that's been the only guiding light,
like that's that's been the only thing that is the

(01:07:36):
light at the end of the tunnel that makes sense.
And I find that when i'm deeply when I help
people find theirs, and I find that what distracts us
me included from that is past desires, future opportunities, and ultimately,

(01:07:57):
I'd say the biggest one, which is what I want
to talk about now, is this societal noise that keeps
us bound. And that could be news cycles, it could
be entertainment conversations, it could be like we talked about before,
the expectations of work and life and people around us,

(01:08:18):
and so like, you're so swept up in all of that,
and naturally most of the people around us, including us,
are skewed towards negativity bias, confirmation bias. We're stuck. And
so to override, going back to where we started, to
override that kind of primitive self to say no, I'm

(01:08:39):
going to find the answer, I'm going to push is
so rare, if not impossible, that how does someone kind
of let go of those shackles and going back to
your prison point, how do you get out the prison?
Because the biggest I can't remember who said this, but
there's this idea of like it's a vadic concept, but
I think maybe it's been said in a movie or

(01:09:00):
something more recently, the idea that the best prisons are
the ones where you can't see the handcuffs. Right, This
idea that you don't even know you're trapped.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Wow, right again, so much there, Jayes.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Sorry, I'm backing like I'm just downloading onto you because
I'm like, you're super smart, Taris. I'm like downloading onto
you and like figure it out for me. That's that's
kind of where this how our relationship's working right now
it works for me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
Well, I think something I just picked up from you,
This I think is really really inspiring for me and
I'm sure for many others, is where you've talked about
that beautiful but difficult journey. I think if you were
sitting here saying I figured it out and now I
want to help others, I don't think I would have
had the same feeling towards you at all. And it
just made me think, because I feel like I'm kind

(01:09:47):
of interested in a lot of things at the moment
in going down some rabbit holes and don't necessarily know,
like you know, where it's going to end up, that
maybe that's the beautiful thing. Maybe that's better than me
coming here and saying, let me tell you everything I
know about neuroscience, you know. So, yeah, I don't know
where I'm going with that, but I know I'm going

(01:10:07):
to think about that overnight because I'm very reflective. That
really touched me, actually to think that there isn't some
golden nugget that you've got to come up with at
the end. It's actually you know what you delve into
and are curious about, and where you go and how
easy or difficult it is. I think that's actually like
what the thing is for people. So now if only

(01:10:27):
I could remember any of the other things that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
No, No, I'm glad you talked about that, and I
want to touch on that too, Like I do feel
like there was a point in my life where I
believed I was teaching what I was learning, and then
I had to live what I'd learned, and then it
all changed, like its just completely changed. And even now,
that's why I'm in that dance, because you don't know,

(01:10:52):
and the situation is giving you. As we said earlier,
each impediment is giving you a new invitation to learn,
live and react and respond and figure it out again.
And then that happens again and again and again.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
I think it's like you know that phrase, healer, heel thyself.
I think that I've never understood that phrase in the
way that I have until what you said, what you
just said, which is that you kind of create like
an elixir that you can share with others if you
actually do that, if you keep just trying to impart
what you think you know. I don't think that has

(01:11:27):
I'm going to say it, I'm not sure it has
like much effect at all, But I think if you
can impart a feeling of what you went through, I
think that has much more power. Wow, And I'm going
to move on quite swiftly because I just remembered another
thing I wanted to say. So you were talking about
the noise around us, but also earlier we were talking
about all these ancient practices, a lot of which come

(01:11:49):
from our culture and maybe don't come from other people's cultures.
I'll tell you the one thing I do that expands
my consciousness to most That is the easiest thing that
anyone can do from any culture. Do you want to
guess what it is?

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Oh, go for it. I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
Digital detos so I don't watch the news anyway, but
obviously I am aware of the most important things that
are going on in the world because I've got people
around me that make sure I stay informed. And that
does not mean I make other people watch the news.
Just my family will tell me and if I need
to look into something. But when I do digital detoxes,
which I usually do, if I take two three four

(01:12:23):
weeks off over like Christmas a new year, that is
the biggest change for me in terms of my mental space,
my perception of time, how creative I become at that time.
I may also be probably spending a lot of time
in nature and kind of you know, doing more of
the kinds of exercise that I love to do, like
swimming in the sea and stuff like that. But that

(01:12:44):
one thing alone makes a noticeable difference for me, and
it does take some time. You know, doing a weekend
is great, like, please do that if you can't do
anything else, but if you can give it some more time,
I noticed towards the end, I just become like super creative.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Is so true. I can relate to it completely. I
think that's probably one of my favorite habits too. And
it's funny because I was like, no, Jay, I just
saw you post yesterday. I'm like, no, We've got to
a point where we built the systems where we can
be online and offline at the same time. And I
couldn't agree with you more. I'm my best self creatively,
even productively, if I'm not glued to doom scrolling or

(01:13:23):
whatever else it may be. And I think it comes
back down to that's what I meant by the noise,
and that is the answer. That's a great answer, because
I do think that you just have to switch the
noise off. There isn't a way to operate in the
noise and hope that you won't be affected by it.
It's almost like you walk into a restaurant, you will

(01:13:44):
walk out smelling like the food in that restaurant, Like
you can't go in there, eat, enjoy it, and walk out.
And I used to often think I could do that,
Like I used to think you could engage with an
energy and not be affected by it, and that's not true,
Like no one's powerful enough to do that, and you
will kind of absorb that energy. And I do find
that we're just losing spaces of high frequency and vibration

(01:14:10):
that people can go to to have that the other way.
So there's lots of places you could go to and
we all probably know what they are, where like I
don't like going there's managing against train and I don't
like going there because I don't feel my best. I
think we're losing places in society that have the opposite effect,
like where does someone go to? And you're saying nature
is definitely one of them that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
Was free opposite to people, and that one's.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
Free as well and accessible, and it's become harder. I
read this article a few years ago, and it was
talking about how what we value as a society has
changed by the tallest building in the town. And so
back in the day, the tallest building in the town
would be the church, so you can see the cross
from anywhere, and that would be the center point of community.

(01:14:54):
And then that changed to the government building, the capitol building.
You'd see that building, the State building became the tallest building.
And today if you looked at any city center, it
would be the commerce, it would be the business, it
would be you know, the tallest building will be a banker.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
Very cool.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Yeah, And it was just this idea of how society
shows what's important and what's powerful too. I'd add that
as well that it's also what we deem as powerful.
And I want to wanted to get your take on
what is it your perspective on God and the source
in that sense, like what have you discovered or seen
from your research in that space.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
I mean, that's a very difficult question to answer.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
I think you don't have to if you don't want to.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
No, it's not that I don't want to. I mean
it's difficult for me because I have to put my
scientist head on and I want to answer that question,
which is that clearly God brings a lot of comfort
to a lot of people. And probably you could argue
that it can't be disproven that God exists, but with
the science that we have at our fingertips at the moment,

(01:15:52):
it can't be proven. So I have nothing against people,
you know, having that as their primary source of comfort
and guide in life. But I can't give you any
evidence that such a thing exists.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Even with the experiences that people have had under psychedelics
or things like that. I've heard or met so many
people who have had like God interactions or godlike interactions
with it. Yeah, and things I'm sure you have too. Yeah,
that's why I was trying to get it from from
the research point of view. But you're saying that that's
still not you wouldn't count as proof in the scientific ecent.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
No, I wouldn't count it as proof. And I would
say that the person who described that in the biggest
detail to me, who someone that I really trust to
is a positive psychologist, said I had what I can
only describe as a godlike experience. I don't think anyone
can really say more than that. The people with the
near death experiences often talk about something similar as well,
and there are some common themes like a tunnel of

(01:16:46):
white light, you know, a being that's like more full
of love than anything you've ever experienced. It does tend
to hold archetypes depending on what religious or cultural background
you come from. Not always, but so yeah, again, I'm curious,
you know, I'm curious, but I'm always going to be
that person that is very happy to go down a

(01:17:08):
rabbit hole. But we'll also say that this is the
end of what we know, like totally yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
Yeah, yeah, no, no, And that's totally it's totally interesting
and fair and it's yeah, it's just been something I've
been fascinated by from a scientific point of view because
it's it's yeah, trying to understand the as we've talked
about today, the other worldly or other realm is something
that's beyond us, like we don't we don't even have

(01:17:33):
Like you said, the brain doesn't even allow us to
go there.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
That's what we think. But I think if we even
believe that hypothesis, there must be more that we can
do to try to go there. Yes, yeah, and I
will say that science does say that a sort of
a healthy. Moderate amount of religiosity or belief in God
is beneficial to our mental health, and non or fundamentalism
is actually, you know, negative for our mental health.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
We've talked about so what's today. We've really gone there
and it was more that I've thought too. I've I've
avoided every bullet point my team sent me, and I
love that because it's been so much more fun just
diving into your amazing mind and research and just getting
getting an inking. Is there anything that we haven't talked
about that you really want to touch on it? I'm

(01:18:19):
like just making sure that to sit with someone and
really pick their brain, and someone who can speak about
so many different things and such a broad range of
topics is so rare. I'm so grateful to you for
that because I love how much how curious you are.
I love how much you're willing to push the envelope.
I love how challenging you are of both sides of

(01:18:40):
the idea, whether it's spirituality or science. And we end
every On Purpose episode with a final five. So I'd
love to ask you these five questions. Some of them
are things we ask everyone, and some of them will
be geared towards you. So doctor Torres sat These are
your final five. The first question is what is the
best advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
There's a few that you can say all of them, okay.
So that one is particularly to do with writing, because
the first time I had to write out my PhD,
and then every time I've written a book since then,
which I'm actually doing at the moment, I struggle. So
somebody said to me, just write something, and I think
that's quite an important metaphor for life, like you just
have to start. You have to put one foot forward,

(01:19:22):
you know, and then it's much easier than looking at
a blank page. And then the other one, I think,
which I didn't really understand at the time but is
kind of where I am now, is follow your heart.

Speaker 2 (01:19:33):
What do you understand about it differently now?

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
I think at the time, I was probably in my
late twenties or early thirties, and I thought, you can't
live life like that. You've got to do the right
thing with your career, and you know that, I sort
of worried about what my parents would think, and but
now I just I believe that if you do that,
you can't go wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
I love that question. Number two, what is the worst
advice you ever heard or received.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
I'm not going to say it's the worst advice, but
I'm to say that the concept around it is perhaps
flawed in a way that again I understand differently now,
which is that when I was at school, high school,
my English teacher said to me, you're so good at
drama that you should read English Oxford and go to
Rada and you could become an actress. Now, in those days,

(01:20:17):
there were no like Indian actors or actresses in like
the western world, really, and so my father said, over
my dead body, and you will go to medical school.
I've obviously had a very privileged education. I'm very pleased
to be where I am now. But I just wonder
what could have happened if I'd actually been supported in that,
because because I'm not doing medicine now and I'm way
more successful now in something that you know, my parents

(01:20:39):
couldn't have imagined. So I just think this clipping of
the wings of children, I think is bad advice.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Question number three, is it possible to manifest love?

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
One hundred percent? I did how I did it with
my vision board.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
It walk us through it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:55):
So I had been divorced for quite a few years,
and I'd basically become a workaholic, and I'd had a
lot of success with vision boards for my work. And
then I remember just slightly thinking, I think I'm using
my work to run away from love again, and then
I just pushed that thought aside. Then the following year,
I thought, Okay, I'm going to put this tiny little
heart on my vision board, but it's all going to

(01:21:15):
be about business and travel, and so nothing changed. And
then I really thought to myself, Okay, Tara, if you
believe in this manifestation, if you really really believe in it,
you've got to prove it to yourself that you can
manifest love. So I put this like huge engagement ring
on the top left corner of my vision board. I
never usually put phrases on it, but I was looking

(01:21:35):
through magazines and I saw this phrase that said joy
comes out of the blue. It's actually Tiffany advert. I
just loved it, so I put it like on the
top of my board and the various other things. So
I did that for twenty for twenty fifteen, and actually
nothing had happened by the end of twenty fifteen. But
February twenty sixteen, I met the person who was to
become my husband on a plane, so that's out of

(01:21:57):
the blue in the sky, and we got engaged year
and then married the finding.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
You Wow, I love that. That's a great story. That's beautiful.
I'm sure that'll give people a lot of hope. What
are people doing wrong with manifesting love? Where are people
going wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:22:12):
I think it's a lot to do with this noise
around us that you talked about, So I think a
lot of it is at a certain stage of life
where you just think that's what you should be doing.
And personally, I will go with a theme that you
sort of alluded to as well, which is that I
think people are going for a lot of external characteristics
when they actually should be going for like values and
you know, what the human being is actually like and

(01:22:33):
what that relationship would be like, rather than the material
things that's around it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Absolutely a question number five fifty final question. We asked
this to everyone who's ever been on the show. If
you could create one law that everyone in the world
had to follow, what would it be? Love?

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
Everyone just give out so much love.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
Yeah, it's so needed, yeah, so needed. Especially now well
doctor Tarris, Well, thank you so much for coming on
on purpose. The book is called The Source, The Secrets
of the Universe, The Signs of the Brain. Please if
you don't have a copy already, go and grab one.
And of course, if you don't follow doctor Tara on
social media, please go and subscribe and follow on all channels.

(01:23:12):
I can't wait to share this. I want to hear
what resonated with you, what connected with you? Please tag
us both sharing insights, your favorite clips, things you're practicing,
your action boards. I want to see it all. And
doctor Tyreswat, thank you so much for your time and energy. Again,
it was truly a joy, So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:23:28):
It was amazing for me too. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Thank you. Hey everyone. If you love that conversation, go
and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist
Lourie Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people
ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak,
and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space
right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:23:52):
If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard
to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold
on and as you're having the conversation, it's so lovely.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Tara Swart: 4 Brain Hacks To Manifest Anything Into Your Life (Science-Backed Method!)