November 1, 2025 • 37 mins
In this first episode of On Purpose with Radhi, Jay opens up a conversation many of us have faced but rarely unpack, being asked, “When are you having kids?” What seems like a casual question often carries a weight that touches on biology, cultural expectations, financial realities, and deeply personal struggles. Together, Jay and Radhi peel back the layers of why this question can feel so triggering, especially for women, and why the assumptions behind it often miss the heart of the matter.
They explore how family pressure, societal timelines, and even social media comparisons can make people feel like they’re “behind,” while statistics actually show that having children later in life has become the norm. From the challenges of IVF and miscarriages to the fear of balancing career and motherhood, Jay and Radhi shed light on the unspoken realities couples quietly carry. They remind us that true preparation for parenthood isn’t about perfect timing, it’s about awareness, acceptance, and readiness for change.
In this episode, you'll learn:
How to Handle Pressure About Having Kids
How to Prepare for the Real Changes of Parenthood
How to Know if You’re Ready for Children
How to Separate Society’s Timeline From Your Own
How to Support Friends Struggling With Fertility
The milestones that matter most are the ones that feel true to you, not the ones dictated by outside voices. Fulfillment is not found in comparison but in living with intention, compassion, and alignment to your own values.
With Love and Gratitude,
Jay Shetty
What We Discuss:
00:00 Intro
00:45 When Are You Going to Have Kids?
03:53 So, Do You Want to Have Kids?
07:57 Are You Prepared to Raise Kids?
12:31 A Different Mindset on Being a Parent
16:23 Delaying Parenthood Because of Financial Constraints
21:16 Parenthood Equates to Success
23:20 Can a Child Fix a Broken Relationship?
29:02 Are You Willing to Sacrifice Your Career to Become a Parent?
32:32 Live the Life You Want For Yourself
Episode Resources:
Radhi Devlukia | Website
Radhi Devlukia | YouTube
Radhi Devlukia | Instagram
Radhi Devlukia | Facebook
Radhi Devlukia | TikTok
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I do not want kids.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Me and my mom is amazing. It is the best thing.
I'm thirty three and I have no kids. Doing mom
is literally the best thing ever.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Do not have kids, and I would argue it's one
of the most important decisions. When are you going to
have kids?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
There's no benefit to asking that question. Saying that to
someone who is really struggling. It can end up triggering
something so difficult.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Well, I know how my life is going to change,
and am I ready to embrace that change.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
The older that you get as a woman, the more
difficult it is to conceive.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
The pressure of having a child financially is actually one
of the biggest factors in why people are scared about children.
This is something I hear a lot when we're back
in London. Yeah, for sure, is when are you going
to have kids?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, it's a big question, especially after you hit thirties.
It's something especially the aunties out there, they just really
like knowing. They want to know what's happening. And I
think a lot of people struggle with it. My friends
really do, especially my friends who are not even in
(01:09):
a relationship at the age of thirty five or you know,
in their late thirties and they haven't got into a relationship,
and then they're really scared about the idea of when
am I going.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
To have children?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
And then the pressure of people asking on top of that.
I think more so for women than men. It's just
really it can be really difficult for so many people
to hear that regularly and not know when it's going
to happen for them.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, talk to me about that pressure, because I think
you're right. Women get it more than men, definitely, and
they hear it a lot more often from a lot
more people. So talk to me a bit about that
pressure because I may not even understand it fully because
that's not really something that men get hit with that often.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Biologically, Look, it is true the older that you get
as a woman, the more difficult it is to conceive.
And so I think biologically women have this internal clock
that is ticking, and whether you're unsure about having children
or whether you really want them, you feel it internally
that your body is aging and what that means because
you've been told that from such a young age that
(02:07):
as a woman, when you have to have children, the
ideal age to have children is in your twenties. As
soon as you get your thirties is going to get harder.
And so I think you feel it in your body
and you notice changes that are happening which lead you
to believe that it's kind of getting to the end
of the time period where it's going to be easy
for you to conceive. And then I think for a
lot of women who aren't even in relationships yet, it's like, God,
(02:29):
I have to find my partner and I have to
get pregnant within the next two years or whatever it is. Yeah,
I think it's a mixture of media and a mixture
of people around you, and the reality of the situation
being unfortunately that we do have a body clock.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah. And I did some research before the episode, and
it said that women born in two thousand and seven
are projected to have their first child by age thirty
five versus thirty one for their mothers. Yes, so true,
and girls born in twenty twenty five may not reach
that milestone until age thirty six. And so it's going
(03:04):
up gradually. And so anyone is feeling alone or anyone
who is thinking, oh gosh, like maybe it's just me,
the truth is it's not just you. It is the trend.
And I think often we don't look at statistics as
a way of understanding we're not alone, because the trends
show what everyone around you is doing, even if you
feel everyone around you is having kids, right, I think
a lot of people look around and go whatever on
(03:26):
Instagram has kids, and all my friends have kids, and
everyone does. It's just me. I'm the one who's been
left behind. Either I don't have kids or I haven't
found my person yet. And the reality is the status
show no, you're not alone at all. Pretty much everyone
around you is getting older, is having kids older, and
that's much more normal. And I think when you understand that,
it kind of frees you up from some of that pressure.
(03:48):
But what's the different kind of pressure that people get
from like family, society, friends. Have you noticed any patterns
or differences in what you hear? And I think there's
two things that I found really interesting. The first is
no one ever asked a question do you want kids? Yes?
Or you will maybe from a friend or someone you're
very close to, but generally people will skip that question.
(04:10):
It's really strange because when you ask the question when
are you having kids, it's an assumption that people want
kids that people can conceive and have Kich Today we'll
talk about that. That's a whole nother area. It's quite
an insensitive and unthoughtful question. It comes with good intent.
People are not people are excited, people are whatever. But
(04:33):
if you look at it in reality, it doesn't make
sense as a question. It's like saying to someone like
when are you going to start a business, and that
person's like, I'm happy in my job, Like I don't
want to start a business, or like when are you
gonna leave your job and find a better job, And
it's like I don't know if I need to leave
my job, Like why are you assuming that? But we
assume everyone wants kids, can have kids, and is excited
(04:56):
about that.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
I think the biggest part of it is that in
sensitivity about it, and I know people don't mean it
in that way, but I think nowadays we're all aware
that more people than not are having miscarriages or not.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Being able to conceive.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I think it's like one in five women have miscarriages,
and so we all have girlfriends at least like five
women in our life that one of them will probably
have had a miscarriage. And I think now we are
aware of that when people DM me or comment on stuff,
or even the craziest thing is I will sometimes have
videos where a little bit my belly's popping out a bit,
or like maybe I've just eaten and I'm a bit bloated,
(05:30):
and people are like, oh my gosh, are you pregnant?
And I'm like, first of all, okay, I actually don't
mind if people think I'm pregnant based on how I look.
But I always think if someone's saying that to someone
who is really struggling to conceive to have a baby,
not sure what they're doing, it can end up triggering
something so deeply. So it's kind of like, what is
the benefit of me asking when you're having children? And
what's the benefit of me writing it in a public
forum questioning whether that person is pregnant or not, Because
(05:53):
if they are pregnant and they haven't told you, they
probably don't want to tell you. And that's the reality
of it. People go through different phases in their life
where they really want children and then they're not sure,
and then they're trying to figure themselves out and feel
like it's not the right time. And there's so many
parts of life where you can feel a different way
about something. But I always truggle with the idea of, oh,
you know, are we doing it in the wrong way?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Are we doing it the right way?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Like, yes, I think you know, health aspect of it,
we are it is better to have children when you're younger,
according to your health. But then when I think about
it with mindset, if I had had children when I
was in my twenties, I'm not sure I would have
been a version of myself that has space to have
a child, look after it in the right way, create
(06:35):
the life.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That I would have wanted to for that child.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
But I would have done that because of pressure of
people telling me that the twenties is when you should
do it. And then I speak to women who are
in their late thirties having children. They say, I'm so glad,
I'm so grateful that I had children at a later age.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I now can spend so much time with them.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I figured my life out, I've spent time with my partner,
I feel like I'm in a stable place financially, all
of these things are in place for me to really
bring up this child how I wanted to.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And so I think there's so many obviously not.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
There is no right, right answer, But I do think
it's difficult going through I'm sure anyone listening, I don't
know whether you've been through this. But in my twenties
I thought growing up I would have both my children
or the two children that I thought I wanted.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
In my twenties. No, like I was going to be
a young mum in my twenties that.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Was pregnant, looking cute, you know, just getting like fit
after my pregnancy. You know, I had a vision of
what that looked like. And then my life changed dramatically.
Our life changed dramatically, and I felt like I went
through a whole journey of really trying to having to
figure out so much more about myself to feel even
comfortable about inviting another soul into my life that I
(07:44):
then would be responsible for and I would want to
give them the best of myself. And so I think
it's it's really hard for women. Honestly, I think it
really is.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, you brought up to really good things. I think
one part is the idea that when you ask the
question when are you having kids, if that person's just
had a miscarriage, it's really really tough to face that question,
and they try and smile and hold a positive demeanor
(08:15):
in that environment, and then they feel pain afterwards. Or
let's say they're going through IVF treatment, which so many
of our friends are as well, and so many people
we know, and it's not going that well right now. Again,
it's become an emotional reaction for that person. And then
there's the person who's like, well, I don't want to
have kids at all. Now it may start a debate
(08:36):
that they don't really want to have because they don't
need to convince you or anyone else. And so those
first two, though, I've seen that be so hard. I've
had so many friends in the last twenty four to
thirty six months who've gone through one to three five
rounds of IVF, had multiple miscarriages, and whenever that question
(08:57):
or conversation comes up at family dinner or anywhere, it's
so emotionally difficult for that individual. And just just to
be really clear, me and Radia have not gone through
either of those things, and just to be you know,
totally transparent and honest, we haven't. But for anyone who
is going through that, I've had so many of my
friends come up to me and just say like, dude,
(09:18):
I just I'm struggling. This is meant too, like coming
up to me and just being like, my wife's just
been through this. I'm just trying to be there for her.
But then all her friends keep saying like, when are
you having kids? And what's going on? Then she's coming
to me and it's a real thing. And so I'm
really glad that you raised that point because I think
it's often forgotten or missed. And the other thing I
was going to say is, I think one of the
(09:38):
biggest challenges with humans is that we try to time
things perfectly. Now, the biological clock is real, totally understands,
let's start with that foundation. But the idea of when
are you having kids is the wrong question. I think
the right questions are actually, do I know how my
(10:00):
life will change when I have a child? And am
I ready to embrace that.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Change right right right now?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
The truth is you won't know fully how your life
is going to change. So I know parents will say, Jay,
you never know your life will change in the most
incredible ways and crazy ways. I agree with that too.
I don't know. I don't have kids, but what I
can observe is am I prepared for the basics of
that change. Do I know it's like changing anything in life?
Am I aware of how my sleep bands may change,
(10:30):
how my social life may change, how my relationship with
my partner may change. I was looking into the statistics
about this because I was talking to a client of
mine and they were telling me that after they had
their firstborn, him and his wife went through the toughest
part of their marriage. And when I looked into the statistics,
it showed that most men feel after their partner gives
(10:55):
birth that they feel unloved, they feel like a second priority,
they feel unthought about. Yeah, and that's also why the
trend showed that more men are likely to cheat at
that time, no way when either when their wife are
pregnant or when their wife gives birth. Because again I'm
not condoning this, I'm just talking about the statistics because
(11:15):
that's when they feel neglected. So the truth is, if
you're prepared for that, you'll be less surprised in court
of God. Right when I think about us having kids,
I'm like, got it, Rabi, I'm going to go lower
on the list. Yeah, And that's a reality not just
for me, but for every man in my position, who
has that situation, And if I'm mentally prepared for it,
(11:37):
I'm actually better ready to deal with it rather than
I'm like looking at you, going, well, what's going on?
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Like?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Why am I not your priority anymore? You don't love
me anymore? When in reality, of course, your energy is
going to go towards this helpless little baby who actually
needs it. And all I'm saying is like, treat me
like the baby. I'm not the baby anymore. Yeah, And
so I think there's a lot to be said for
not asking the question of when's the right time, because
I don't think you'll ever know when it's the right time,
(12:04):
but it's do I know how my life is going
to change? And am I ready to embrace that change?
So my life is going to change, but I'm not
going to be your top priority. Am I ready for that?
My life's going to change by I will have sleepless night?
Am I ready for that? My life's going to change
with I may not be able to have the freedom
on the weekends that I have right now? Am I
ready for that? And those are better questions to prepare
(12:24):
me because the question of when should we have kids
doesn't really prepare me. M.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I do think that the process is never going to
be the same and never going to be understood as
fully by a man as it is obviously for a woman,
because a woman has to literally carry that child inside
of her for those nine months, and so I think
there's always going to be slight disconnects between how men
(12:50):
perceive the situation and how women do. But I remember
I was thinking about how, you know, I remember at
the beginning, when we first met, you really didn't want
to have children, or like you were sure whether you did,
And it was so it was right at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, I'd just come out of the monastery and that.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Exactly, and your mindset was back there.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And I read this quote actually that I thought for
anybody thinking of not having children, I thought it was
really well put. I said, motherhood is not Motherhood is
not the only way to mother. You can mother a movement,
a garden, a dream, or a community. And I remember
when we first met, back way back, when you had
said you wanted to help so many more people, and
you weren't sure whether you want to put all your
emphasis onto.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
One person or into one child.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And so many people recently that I have met, or
actually not so many. Quite a few people that I
met recently have said that they don't want to have
children because they feel they are saving the child from
all the pain that's happening in the world. They don't
think this environment is an environment to bring children into
the world. I know there's a big following of that
philosophy from friends that we know and even in specific communities,
(13:53):
and I was wondering whether you'd heard that or what
your thoughts were on it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I think for me, it was very much a
feeling of I feel I get to express a lot
of paternal energy.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I know it's not the same, so I'm not trying
to say it's the same, but I experience a lot
of paternal energy in my work. I feel like I'm
a parent to lots of people, and so that part
of my life is quite full.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I mean, if you think about rather Thanaswami who's a
spiritual teacher, and all the spiritual teachers that are out
there who are not in relationships and don't have children,
all they do is father people or other people and
are there for them through every type of problem and
supporting them, caring for them, So I can totally understand
how people could feel like that.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
That was how I used to feel, yeah, for sure.
And I think there's a lot of people now who
are fearful of raising a child in a world with
social media, the mental health challenges that come with it,
the security and safety issue the world, Yeah, school systems
that are failing children, the worry with I mean, that's
(14:59):
just like war or there's just so much that I
think people are becoming aware of. Again, it's not lots
of people. It's some people that I know that are
having these conversations, and I think all of those are
valid for that person now. At the same time, I
know people who are raising amazing kids that are going
to go on to become future leaders of the world
(15:19):
in their areas. And I know amazing people raising beautiful
children that I think will have a beautiful impact on
their communities and the people around them. And I know
people having kids yet early who are really happy. Like
we just had Nara Smith on the podcast, and Nara's
in her twenties and she has like four kids and
she loves it, like she's really happy, and it comes
(15:40):
with her and her husband making certain choices and whatever
it may be, but she's happy about it, and I
can see that when I'm with her, and she's a
successful woman. She's very ambitious, she's driven, but they have
a happy family set up. And so it's funny.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Because now people see that as, oh my gosh, she
had kids so early. Yeah, but she hasn't had kids early.
I don't know what's early and late. But technically back
in the day, like even twenty thirty years ago, that
would have been seen as a very normal age to
have children. And now on social media when you see it,
these people saying, wow, she's had four kids in her twenties.
That is so like, she's had them so young, so early.
(16:18):
So it's so funny how things just change, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
That's a great that's such a good point of like
what is normal changes every twenty five years. Yeah, And
so this idea of well everyone's doing it is a
messy metric because what everyone's doing today will be different
from what everyone's doing twenty five years from now, and
different to what everyone did twenty five years ago. And
so trying to do what everyone's doing it does make
(16:42):
life easier. There's a reason why we want to do
things at the same time as people because you can
share in that experience. And I think that's important and
we need that. But if you're not ready for something,
and this was a really interesting statistic, it said thirty
six percent of adults under fifty without kids say they're
delaying parent because they don't think they can afford it.
(17:02):
Oh wow, and that, you know, has become such a challenge.
Sixty six percent of parents feel consumed by money worries
versus thirty nine percent of non parents, So that's true.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Kid's expensive.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
The pressure of having a child financially is actually one
of the biggest factors in why people are scared of
having children. I actually read that for someone to raise
their child from a zero to eighteen is going to
cost anywhere between two hundred and thirty three thousand to
three hundred and ten thousand dollars. And by the way,
(17:38):
that doesn't include college. Wow, because eighteen's before college. So
if you add tuition fees if your child's going to
go to college, you're adding potentially another thirty fifty hundred,
two hundred thousand dollars depending on where they go. And
so that's an incredible lot. It's a lot of money,
and so that has become a real factor. And I've
(17:58):
heard that from a lot of people saying, we really
want to have another kid, but we just don't know
if we can afford it. And then again, if that
person gets asked, when are you having kids? It triggers
financial insecurity, It triggers economic uncertainty, It triggers a feeling
of not being worthy enough, not being good enough. Like
I don't think we realize how that question, like you said,
(18:19):
it affects your belief about your appearance. Imagine someone's trying
to lose weight, gain muscle, strengthen and someone says you
look like you're pregnant, like that affects them on that perspective.
If someone's struggling to pay their bills and having a child,
you ask them when a you're gonna have kids, they're
now worried about.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Especially if they really want children and they're trying to
figure it out financially and they really want them, but
they're finding it difficult to even think of how that
would be possible.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, and I think we do often. I do sometimes
think we're living in an overly sensitive world. But I
think this, and I'm one of those people who say,
sometimes we're being overly sensitive about everything these days, everything's
a thing, but this is one of those ones that
I think. It's so interconnected to your personal belief about yourself,
your self worth, and your finances, your emotional well being
(19:08):
because of miscarriages, IVF and everything else that's going on.
It is one of those things that I think we
should be sensitive about with others, definitely, because it can
really make you distant in that relationship.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
I also think sometimes people ask because they don't know
what else to ask about people's life, and they think
it's a natural thing to speak about it. I think
it's more a cultural thing as well, because I actually
think that a lot of people ask because they don't
know what else to ask in a situation. They meet someone,
they've talked about, the weather, they've talked about Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
So now one of you guys having kids.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
And I think it's weirdly a very natural cultural thing
to do in certain settings, and it can come from
a place of worry, it can come from a place
of you know, interest or excitement. But at the same time,
I'm like, if you're not the person who's gonna be
looking after my child in some capacity, and and affect
(20:00):
your life.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
You do not need to know.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Like, there is zero unless you're my mom, who's gonna
have to look after me, unless you are somewhat in
relation or going to be there physically helping me during
that time. There is absolutely no need for you to
know when I'm going to be having that child. And
if I want you to know, I will definitely send
you a message or a voice no. But if I don't,
(20:25):
and I don't openly tell you, and this is probably
how many people feel, no needs, no needs, there's no
benefit to asking that question. There is, actually I will
I'll say that again, there is no benefit of asking
that question because if they know, they would have already
told you. And if they don't know, you're making them
anxious in some way. So actually zero benefit and asking
when are you having children? That's my conclusion of this
(20:45):
whole situation.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I love it. I love it. Yeah. And men, someone
get to deflect or tell the truth, which is I
always say it's Friday's body, it's when she wants like yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Men, also, can you know get someone men?
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Can men have like unmitted fertility? There are like sixty
year old men or seventy year old men that are
getting women pregnant, so I think there's less of a
You're never going to feel bad about it unless your
wife is going through something. It's never going to be
a triggering question really to a man.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
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(22:52):
is this idea of parenthood still equates to success in purpose.
And I think as societ it's seen that way, like
if you're a parent, you're doing the right thing, You're normal,
you're doing something good. And I actually found some quotes
from Tracy Ellis Ross on rejecting societal scripts. This was
(23:12):
in New York Times, and she said it undermined my
sense of worth and joy until I realized it was
somebody else's idea. I do not believe that my life
is unworthy because I don't have children. I do not
believe that my life is unworthy because I don't have
a partner. I mother. All over the place, you were
saying this, I do very valued things in the world
(23:33):
for people I love. That's a really interesting like, you know,
going back to that point that you made of people
feel alone if they don't do that.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I do think though, when when you think about all
spiritual pathts, religious paths, when you think about evolution and
how they talk about the human body, there is such
a strong there is no question of in any of
those things, whether men and women were made to procreate.
Think about Adam and Eve, think about any of the scriptures,
(24:06):
any of the religions that you've seen. Everything does lead
to you are here to procreate, even as our If
you're thinking about take God out of this, how the
human body has been created, it does show towards that
is why we are here, that is survival, and.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I don't have the answer for it, but when I
do think about it in that way, it's kind of
it's interesting to think about, Okay, so, how can we
have gone towards this path of saying we shouldn't be
doing something that our bodies made for that if you
believe in a certain religion or a specific path, they
are saying that is what our essence is is to
create a beautiful child in this world to help other people,
(24:45):
whatever that notion is, but that there's such a strong
wave going against it, which it's just interesting because I
struggle with that idea of both.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I think everyone today is looking at their inner child
and then thinks about having a child, right like you're
you're almost so aware of how much therapy, healing and
work you need. You feel inadequate and.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Unqualified, feel like a child having a child?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Correct, You literally feel like I haven't even figured what's
going on here? How am I meant to figure out
what's going on there?
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I'm sure there's a lot of unworthiness that plays into it,
like when you if you don't feel good in yourself,
you think how am I going to do that to
a child? And then at this on the flip side,
we've spoken about this before that there are so many
couples who think having a child will help their relationship.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Oh my gosh, we have to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
And that's really interesting because I think there's one side
where people don't feel prepared enough, and I think I've
gone on that side a lot, where I'm like, God,
I need to be way better before I have a child.
And then there's this other side and thinking whether you're
whether you're going to mess a child or like, there's
so many things that have gone through my mind that
have stopped me. And then there's this other group of
people who really strongly believe that having a child will
(25:57):
fix them or the pain that they've been through as
a child, or you know, my friends. I've got a
lot of friends who were raised by single mums, and
it was really interesting their mindset was really similar and
not saying this for everyone, but my friends who had
this where they fundamentally believe them having a child breaks
the cycle so that they could give the love that
they didn't receive, like having this family set up.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Will make up for what they lax.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
And then the couples who are really struggling and decide
that having children will actually be the bridge between them. Yes,
it will help will help bridge the gap between them
that has been created.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, that was the advice that so many of my
friends got. Really but they were struggling in their relationships,
which is like, have a kid, it will solve it,
And it actually did the opposite. Those people ended up
becoming getting divorced or after having the kid too. And
so now you have a kid, which makes it harder.
Or their relationship got worse because now you had more responsibilities,
(26:53):
and I think that's what doesn't make sense, Like and
the man felt even less of a priority, So how
was it ever going to get better? So on all
of those levels, it actually made it harder. Now a
kid can be great, it's not like it can't. But
that can't be your hell, Mary, Like that can't be
the thing, Like, let's create life in order to save this.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
It definitely ties them.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
It's a lot of pressure to that person, to that kid.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, it's a pressure on the kid. And I think
there's a difference between creating connection and creating a tie
with someone. Yeah, they think the child can create a tie.
There's so many things that can create ties to people. Okay,
we've got a house together, that's a tie together. Balance, Yeah,
that's a tie together.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
A child.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yes, of course there is an emotional connection, but the
emotional connection is actually to the child, it's not necessarily
to the partner. That creates just another tie to keep
you strung together. But I don't know whether that action
if not done consciously and as a partnership, trying to
connect each other and be better with each other in
order to create this child, whether that creates a connection
(27:52):
or just a tie.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I love that point. That's such a great point. And
I was thinking about it as you were saying that. Yeah,
for those people who are told, like, have a to
save your relationship, what ended up happening was they lost
the relationship and now the kid was stuck in the
middle of a bad relationship. You know, it only creates
more trauma.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And pain for everyone, yeah, in the world.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
And so that shouldn't be the kind of last resort
or the hope. And you know, then you've got this
innocent child that's dealing with the fallout and the stress
and the panic that comes from it, and it makes
hard for both parents to move on, whether it's in
future relationships or whatever it may be. That because now
they have that Yeah, yeah, I still got it. And
(28:36):
it's really really hard because the challenge is when you
marry someone, you don't really know how much they're going
to change and grow and you have no clue. Like
it is such it is such a I don't want
to say the word gamble, but it is something that
because you meet someone at a certain stage in your life,
you create life with them and then ten years on
(28:59):
you've realized they had trauma, a mental health challenge, they
have something that happens to them, and everything changes. Yes,
And so you can't plan this perfectly either. You can't
say like, oh, yeah, we'll have a kid when things
are perfect. It doesn't work like that either. So there's
no right advice or wrong advice. And I'm not trying
to give any advice here. I'm just trying to say
that there's there's a reality to this where we're all
(29:21):
just living life, I know, and you're adapting as it
goes along, and you're not going to get everything right
in perfect order. And it's better to be able to
react and adapt and be flexible than it is to
think I'm going to get everything perfect and avoid all
the stuff. Definitely, So even when we're like I'm not
(29:41):
worthy enough to have a child, the truth is you
never feel worthy. You are going to make mistakes. It's
probably true that your child's going to, you know, end
up with a few things that you said.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You might mess them up a little bit, a little.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Bit, it will happen. It's probably better to assume and
then try your best than it is to think I'm
going to avoid anything, and then it's like you end
up putting bubble wrap around your kid, but then that
bubble rapp suffocates them. Yeah right, And it's like, so
it doesn't make any sense, Like you're trying to protect it,
but the same thing that you think is going to
(30:13):
protect it is what hurts the kid, and it hurts
you rather than going you know, I'm going to make
some mistakes. I'm going to try my best. Yeah, maybe
they are going to hear me shout and yell a
couple of times. Maybe they are going to see me
stressed and tired, because that's life, you know if and again,
we don't want to end up in a position where
we're being neglectful. But I think there has to be
(30:34):
some grace and reality to what it means.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I think one of the really interesting areas is that
women in the workplace or entrepreneurs, they're building a career
for themselves. We talked about how the financial struggle is
making it harder for couples to think about kids, but
for women especially they have to go on maternity leave,
they'll take some time out. Not all organizations and companies
have great maternity leave, so you may not even get
(30:59):
that long, you may take unpaid leave, which again financially
impacts you. If you're an entrepreneur, your business can to stall,
stop or at least slow down, and then you go
back to the workplace and you feel like you've gone behind. Right,
whether you've taken nine months out, whether you've taken six
months out, whether you've taken four months out, you're catching
up and it can be really, really hard. What have
(31:21):
your thoughts been on that, On the idea of like
having a slow down career? Was you? You know you
last year you launched your book, you have your own podcast,
You've got so many exciting things going on when you
think about kids and how to balance it with that,
how do you look at that?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, I really struggle with the idea because I know
I made a decision and well, at least I think
this is the decision I want to make. Is that
if I, if we have children, I would want to
be able to look after the child fully. And I'd
have loved to have help from other people to help
look after myself, but I know that I would want
(31:55):
to look after the child, and so that comes with
a lot of you know, there's so much to think
about That would mean I would have to have full
focus on this child.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I would have to stop.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Doing a lot of the things that I am doing,
because realistically, I yes, you can do a lot of
different things, but can you do them as well?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Probably not.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
If I'm trying to put full focus into raising a child,
probably can't keep up with all the work that I'm doing.
And so I think, you know, sacrifice comes with such
a negative connotation to it, but I actually think it
can be such a beautiful thing where different times in
your life you see yourself prioritizing different things, And so
if I think that's how I'm trying to see it instead,
(32:34):
where the priority lies here, that means that I may
not be able to do as much, but I can.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Still probably pre plan.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
We've got nine months to plan and figure out how
am I going to financially figure this out, figure out
with my work, figure out with my physical body, how
am I going to look after myself whatever those other
priorities are. I do think you have to decide, because
you know, I think there's this big notion that yeah,
women can do or of course we can do it,
but she be at that time where your body's trying
(33:02):
to healere you've got a new little thing that's come
into your life that you're trying to nurture and look after.
And so yes, I'm sure women can do it all,
but I didn't know whether we should be doing it all.
And I think being okay with that and everything you
said is preparation, preparing my mind that maybe I won't
be able to do this, this and this while for
(33:23):
the first year of this baby's life. And that's okay,
because what I am doing is nurture and creating and
pouring all my energy into creating a beautiful child. And
so I think it's the prioritization and the preparation in
your mind of being okay with what could happen so
it's not shocked and then you don't end up feeling
really depressed afterwards. That I thought my life was going
(33:45):
to be all these things. I was going to work
out at seven am. I was going to feed the
child at twelve, I was going to do all my
work from twelve to six.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
I was going to put the baby to better.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
This time, I was that I'm not sure that's how
it can be, And so preparation and being realistic with
that preparation I think is really important. But then again,
I've never been through it. I've just seen it, so
I can say all this and I'll be a hot
mess after who knows.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Who knows.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah, I wanted to share some real world voices. This
was via Business Insider, and a lady named Viviana had
her first child at thirty six. She said, I don't
regret waiting. I think it was the right thing to do.
Molly had her first child at thirty eight. She said
it felt irresponsible to even start thinking about a baby
(34:27):
when I was worried about paying rent and college debt. Yeah,
And I just want to remind people that when you're
navigating this pressure, whichever stage you're at, whether you want
to have kids, whether you don't want to have kids,
whether you're at any point on the spectrum that me
and Rady have talked about today, you can have the
conversation we've talked about it, and this is the timeline
that works for us right now. That's a great mantra
(34:49):
to kind of repeat to yourself, almost like me and
my fat I have talked about it. This timeline works
for us, and we're building a life that's right for us.
Even if it doesn't look like everyone else's. I think
the take away from this conversation for me is we
don't want to live a life ticking society's boxes or expectations,
because we end up letting ourselves down. We end up
(35:10):
letting society down, and we'll end up letting our child down.
We've got to go at our own timeline and ultimately,
whether you choose to have children or not, life can
be fulfilling, complete and beautiful because it's all about having
that energy. If you have a space to share your
maternal and paternal energy, it can be a beautiful thing.
(35:31):
I know so many friends that have adopted and are
very happy.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I know so many friends that don't have children, who
are monks who have just given their life to thousands
of people that are happy. And I know families that
have two, three, four, or five children that are really
happy at different ages. And so happiness doesn't have a
timeline or an age or a specific setup. Even if
you look at the projection of the nuclear family in history,
(35:55):
whether as serial boxes or adverts, it was always parents,
a boy and a girl. Yeah, and like that was
seen as like the nuclear ideal family. It's in every
advert and that's just not the image that we need
to project. We need to realize that happiness and fulfillment
looks very different for different people. So true, great, thanks
(36:16):
for that. I learned so much. I'm so glad you
brought up so many things that I hadn't even thought about.
That's why I love these conversations, because, yeah, you went
in so many directions. I was like, oh my god,
I forgot about that, or we haven't talked about that before.
And I learned so much. And it's helpful for me
to get a good understanding from your perspective and what
your friends who have had babies think, because as a man,
(36:36):
sometimes I can be distant from that.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
So when I realized this was the first topic that
you thought of, I was like, damn, we're really getting
into it.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
We are first episode out, and it's.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Why didn't you just tell them to subscribe for more
so that they can hear more of these conversations.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Jane just asked me to tell you all to subscribe
for more so you can hear more of these conversations
and press like and share and stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Hey everyone, if you love that conversation, go and check
out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Lourie Gottlieb,
where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in
therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating.
If you're trying to figure out that space right now,
you won't want to miss this conversation. If it's a
(37:25):
romantic relationship, hold hands.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems.
Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.
I do not want kids.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Me and my mom is amazing. It is the best thing.
I'm thirty three and I have no kids. Doing mom
is literally the best thing ever.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Do not have kids, and I would argue it's one
of the most important decisions. When are you going to
have kids?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
There's no benefit to asking that question. Saying that to
someone who is really struggling. It can end up triggering
something so difficult.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Well, I know how my life is going to change,
and am I ready to embrace that change.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
The older that you get as a woman, the more
difficult it is to conceive.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
The pressure of having a child financially is actually one
of the biggest factors in why people are scared about children.
This is something I hear a lot when we're back
in London. Yeah, for sure, is when are you going
to have kids?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, it's a big question, especially after you hit thirties.
It's something especially the aunties out there, they just really
like knowing. They want to know what's happening. And I
think a lot of people struggle with it. My friends
really do, especially my friends who are not even in
(01:09):
a relationship at the age of thirty five or you know,
in their late thirties and they haven't got into a relationship,
and then they're really scared about the idea of when
am I going.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
To have children?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
And then the pressure of people asking on top of that.
I think more so for women than men. It's just
really it can be really difficult for so many people
to hear that regularly and not know when it's going
to happen for them.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, talk to me about that pressure, because I think
you're right. Women get it more than men, definitely, and
they hear it a lot more often from a lot
more people. So talk to me a bit about that
pressure because I may not even understand it fully because
that's not really something that men get hit with that often.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Biologically, Look, it is true the older that you get
as a woman, the more difficult it is to conceive.
And so I think biologically women have this internal clock
that is ticking, and whether you're unsure about having children
or whether you really want them, you feel it internally
that your body is aging and what that means because
you've been told that from such a young age that
(02:07):
as a woman, when you have to have children, the
ideal age to have children is in your twenties. As
soon as you get your thirties is going to get harder.
And so I think you feel it in your body
and you notice changes that are happening which lead you
to believe that it's kind of getting to the end
of the time period where it's going to be easy
for you to conceive. And then I think for a
lot of women who aren't even in relationships yet, it's like, God,
(02:29):
I have to find my partner and I have to
get pregnant within the next two years or whatever it is. Yeah,
I think it's a mixture of media and a mixture
of people around you, and the reality of the situation
being unfortunately that we do have a body clock.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah. And I did some research before the episode, and
it said that women born in two thousand and seven
are projected to have their first child by age thirty
five versus thirty one for their mothers. Yes, so true,
and girls born in twenty twenty five may not reach
that milestone until age thirty six. And so it's going
(03:04):
up gradually. And so anyone is feeling alone or anyone
who is thinking, oh gosh, like maybe it's just me,
the truth is it's not just you. It is the trend.
And I think often we don't look at statistics as
a way of understanding we're not alone, because the trends
show what everyone around you is doing, even if you
feel everyone around you is having kids, right, I think
a lot of people look around and go whatever on
(03:26):
Instagram has kids, and all my friends have kids, and
everyone does. It's just me. I'm the one who's been
left behind. Either I don't have kids or I haven't
found my person yet. And the reality is the status
show no, you're not alone at all. Pretty much everyone
around you is getting older, is having kids older, and
that's much more normal. And I think when you understand that,
it kind of frees you up from some of that pressure.
(03:48):
But what's the different kind of pressure that people get
from like family, society, friends. Have you noticed any patterns
or differences in what you hear? And I think there's
two things that I found really interesting. The first is
no one ever asked a question do you want kids? Yes?
Or you will maybe from a friend or someone you're
very close to, but generally people will skip that question.
(04:10):
It's really strange because when you ask the question when
are you having kids, it's an assumption that people want
kids that people can conceive and have Kich Today we'll
talk about that. That's a whole nother area. It's quite
an insensitive and unthoughtful question. It comes with good intent.
People are not people are excited, people are whatever. But
(04:33):
if you look at it in reality, it doesn't make
sense as a question. It's like saying to someone like
when are you going to start a business, and that
person's like, I'm happy in my job, Like I don't
want to start a business, or like when are you
gonna leave your job and find a better job, And
it's like I don't know if I need to leave
my job, Like why are you assuming that? But we
assume everyone wants kids, can have kids, and is excited
(04:56):
about that.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
I think the biggest part of it is that in
sensitivity about it, and I know people don't mean it
in that way, but I think nowadays we're all aware
that more people than not are having miscarriages or not.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Being able to conceive.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I think it's like one in five women have miscarriages,
and so we all have girlfriends at least like five
women in our life that one of them will probably
have had a miscarriage. And I think now we are
aware of that when people DM me or comment on stuff,
or even the craziest thing is I will sometimes have
videos where a little bit my belly's popping out a bit,
or like maybe I've just eaten and I'm a bit bloated,
(05:30):
and people are like, oh my gosh, are you pregnant?
And I'm like, first of all, okay, I actually don't
mind if people think I'm pregnant based on how I look.
But I always think if someone's saying that to someone
who is really struggling to conceive to have a baby,
not sure what they're doing, it can end up triggering
something so deeply. So it's kind of like, what is
the benefit of me asking when you're having children? And
what's the benefit of me writing it in a public
forum questioning whether that person is pregnant or not, Because
(05:53):
if they are pregnant and they haven't told you, they
probably don't want to tell you. And that's the reality
of it. People go through different phases in their life
where they really want children and then they're not sure,
and then they're trying to figure themselves out and feel
like it's not the right time. And there's so many
parts of life where you can feel a different way
about something. But I always truggle with the idea of, oh,
you know, are we doing it in the wrong way?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Are we doing it the right way?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Like, yes, I think you know, health aspect of it,
we are it is better to have children when you're younger,
according to your health. But then when I think about
it with mindset, if I had had children when I
was in my twenties, I'm not sure I would have
been a version of myself that has space to have
a child, look after it in the right way, create
(06:35):
the life.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That I would have wanted to for that child.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
But I would have done that because of pressure of
people telling me that the twenties is when you should
do it. And then I speak to women who are
in their late thirties having children. They say, I'm so glad,
I'm so grateful that I had children at a later age.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I now can spend so much time with them.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I figured my life out, I've spent time with my partner,
I feel like I'm in a stable place financially, all
of these things are in place for me to really
bring up this child how I wanted to.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And so I think there's so many obviously not.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
There is no right, right answer, But I do think
it's difficult going through I'm sure anyone listening, I don't
know whether you've been through this. But in my twenties
I thought growing up I would have both my children
or the two children that I thought I wanted.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
In my twenties. No, like I was going to be
a young mum in my twenties that.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Was pregnant, looking cute, you know, just getting like fit
after my pregnancy. You know, I had a vision of
what that looked like. And then my life changed dramatically.
Our life changed dramatically, and I felt like I went
through a whole journey of really trying to having to
figure out so much more about myself to feel even
comfortable about inviting another soul into my life that I
(07:44):
then would be responsible for and I would want to
give them the best of myself. And so I think
it's it's really hard for women. Honestly, I think it
really is.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, you brought up to really good things. I think
one part is the idea that when you ask the
question when are you having kids, if that person's just
had a miscarriage, it's really really tough to face that question,
and they try and smile and hold a positive demeanor
(08:15):
in that environment, and then they feel pain afterwards. Or
let's say they're going through IVF treatment, which so many
of our friends are as well, and so many people
we know, and it's not going that well right now. Again,
it's become an emotional reaction for that person. And then
there's the person who's like, well, I don't want to
have kids at all. Now it may start a debate
(08:36):
that they don't really want to have because they don't
need to convince you or anyone else. And so those
first two, though, I've seen that be so hard. I've
had so many friends in the last twenty four to
thirty six months who've gone through one to three five
rounds of IVF, had multiple miscarriages, and whenever that question
(08:57):
or conversation comes up at family dinner or anywhere, it's
so emotionally difficult for that individual. And just just to
be really clear, me and Radia have not gone through
either of those things, and just to be you know,
totally transparent and honest, we haven't. But for anyone who
is going through that, I've had so many of my
friends come up to me and just say like, dude,
(09:18):
I just I'm struggling. This is meant too, like coming
up to me and just being like, my wife's just
been through this. I'm just trying to be there for her.
But then all her friends keep saying like, when are
you having kids? And what's going on? Then she's coming
to me and it's a real thing. And so I'm
really glad that you raised that point because I think
it's often forgotten or missed. And the other thing I
was going to say is, I think one of the
(09:38):
biggest challenges with humans is that we try to time
things perfectly. Now, the biological clock is real, totally understands,
let's start with that foundation. But the idea of when
are you having kids is the wrong question. I think
the right questions are actually, do I know how my
(10:00):
life will change when I have a child? And am
I ready to embrace that.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Change right right right now?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
The truth is you won't know fully how your life
is going to change. So I know parents will say, Jay,
you never know your life will change in the most
incredible ways and crazy ways. I agree with that too.
I don't know. I don't have kids, but what I
can observe is am I prepared for the basics of
that change. Do I know it's like changing anything in life?
Am I aware of how my sleep bands may change,
(10:30):
how my social life may change, how my relationship with
my partner may change. I was looking into the statistics
about this because I was talking to a client of
mine and they were telling me that after they had
their firstborn, him and his wife went through the toughest
part of their marriage. And when I looked into the statistics,
it showed that most men feel after their partner gives
(10:55):
birth that they feel unloved, they feel like a second priority,
they feel unthought about. Yeah, and that's also why the
trend showed that more men are likely to cheat at
that time, no way when either when their wife are
pregnant or when their wife gives birth. Because again I'm
not condoning this, I'm just talking about the statistics because
(11:15):
that's when they feel neglected. So the truth is, if
you're prepared for that, you'll be less surprised in court
of God. Right when I think about us having kids,
I'm like, got it, Rabi, I'm going to go lower
on the list. Yeah, And that's a reality not just
for me, but for every man in my position, who
has that situation, And if I'm mentally prepared for it,
(11:37):
I'm actually better ready to deal with it rather than
I'm like looking at you, going, well, what's going on?
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Like?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Why am I not your priority anymore? You don't love
me anymore? When in reality, of course, your energy is
going to go towards this helpless little baby who actually
needs it. And all I'm saying is like, treat me
like the baby. I'm not the baby anymore. Yeah, And
so I think there's a lot to be said for
not asking the question of when's the right time, because
I don't think you'll ever know when it's the right time,
(12:04):
but it's do I know how my life is going
to change? And am I ready to embrace that change?
So my life is going to change, but I'm not
going to be your top priority. Am I ready for that?
My life's going to change by I will have sleepless night?
Am I ready for that? My life's going to change
with I may not be able to have the freedom
on the weekends that I have right now? Am I
ready for that? And those are better questions to prepare
(12:24):
me because the question of when should we have kids
doesn't really prepare me. M.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I do think that the process is never going to
be the same and never going to be understood as
fully by a man as it is obviously for a woman,
because a woman has to literally carry that child inside
of her for those nine months, and so I think
there's always going to be slight disconnects between how men
(12:50):
perceive the situation and how women do. But I remember
I was thinking about how, you know, I remember at
the beginning, when we first met, you really didn't want
to have children, or like you were sure whether you did,
And it was so it was right at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, I'd just come out of the monastery and that.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Exactly, and your mindset was back there.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And I read this quote actually that I thought for
anybody thinking of not having children, I thought it was
really well put. I said, motherhood is not Motherhood is
not the only way to mother. You can mother a movement,
a garden, a dream, or a community. And I remember
when we first met, back way back, when you had
said you wanted to help so many more people, and
you weren't sure whether you want to put all your
emphasis onto.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
One person or into one child.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And so many people recently that I have met, or
actually not so many. Quite a few people that I
met recently have said that they don't want to have
children because they feel they are saving the child from
all the pain that's happening in the world. They don't
think this environment is an environment to bring children into
the world. I know there's a big following of that
philosophy from friends that we know and even in specific communities,
(13:53):
and I was wondering whether you'd heard that or what
your thoughts were on it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I think for me, it was very much a
feeling of I feel I get to express a lot
of paternal energy.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I know it's not the same, so I'm not trying
to say it's the same, but I experience a lot
of paternal energy in my work. I feel like I'm
a parent to lots of people, and so that part
of my life is quite full.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I mean, if you think about rather Thanaswami who's a
spiritual teacher, and all the spiritual teachers that are out
there who are not in relationships and don't have children,
all they do is father people or other people and
are there for them through every type of problem and
supporting them, caring for them, So I can totally understand
how people could feel like that.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
That was how I used to feel, yeah, for sure.
And I think there's a lot of people now who
are fearful of raising a child in a world with
social media, the mental health challenges that come with it,
the security and safety issue the world, Yeah, school systems
that are failing children, the worry with I mean, that's
(14:59):
just like war or there's just so much that I
think people are becoming aware of. Again, it's not lots
of people. It's some people that I know that are
having these conversations, and I think all of those are
valid for that person now. At the same time, I
know people who are raising amazing kids that are going
to go on to become future leaders of the world
(15:19):
in their areas. And I know amazing people raising beautiful
children that I think will have a beautiful impact on
their communities and the people around them. And I know
people having kids yet early who are really happy. Like
we just had Nara Smith on the podcast, and Nara's
in her twenties and she has like four kids and
she loves it, like she's really happy, and it comes
(15:40):
with her and her husband making certain choices and whatever
it may be, but she's happy about it, and I
can see that when I'm with her, and she's a
successful woman. She's very ambitious, she's driven, but they have
a happy family set up. And so it's funny.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Because now people see that as, oh my gosh, she
had kids so early. Yeah, but she hasn't had kids early.
I don't know what's early and late. But technically back
in the day, like even twenty thirty years ago, that
would have been seen as a very normal age to
have children. And now on social media when you see it,
these people saying, wow, she's had four kids in her twenties.
That is so like, she's had them so young, so early.
(16:18):
So it's so funny how things just change, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
That's a great that's such a good point of like
what is normal changes every twenty five years. Yeah, And
so this idea of well everyone's doing it is a
messy metric because what everyone's doing today will be different
from what everyone's doing twenty five years from now, and
different to what everyone did twenty five years ago. And
so trying to do what everyone's doing it does make
(16:42):
life easier. There's a reason why we want to do
things at the same time as people because you can
share in that experience. And I think that's important and
we need that. But if you're not ready for something,
and this was a really interesting statistic, it said thirty
six percent of adults under fifty without kids say they're
delaying parent because they don't think they can afford it.
(17:02):
Oh wow, and that, you know, has become such a challenge.
Sixty six percent of parents feel consumed by money worries
versus thirty nine percent of non parents, So that's true.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Kid's expensive.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
The pressure of having a child financially is actually one
of the biggest factors in why people are scared of
having children. I actually read that for someone to raise
their child from a zero to eighteen is going to
cost anywhere between two hundred and thirty three thousand to
three hundred and ten thousand dollars. And by the way,
(17:38):
that doesn't include college. Wow, because eighteen's before college. So
if you add tuition fees if your child's going to
go to college, you're adding potentially another thirty fifty hundred,
two hundred thousand dollars depending on where they go. And
so that's an incredible lot. It's a lot of money,
and so that has become a real factor. And I've
(17:58):
heard that from a lot of people saying, we really
want to have another kid, but we just don't know
if we can afford it. And then again, if that
person gets asked, when are you having kids? It triggers
financial insecurity, It triggers economic uncertainty, It triggers a feeling
of not being worthy enough, not being good enough. Like
I don't think we realize how that question, like you said,
(18:19):
it affects your belief about your appearance. Imagine someone's trying
to lose weight, gain muscle, strengthen and someone says you
look like you're pregnant, like that affects them on that perspective.
If someone's struggling to pay their bills and having a child,
you ask them when a you're gonna have kids, they're
now worried about.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Especially if they really want children and they're trying to
figure it out financially and they really want them, but
they're finding it difficult to even think of how that
would be possible.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, and I think we do often. I do sometimes
think we're living in an overly sensitive world. But I
think this, and I'm one of those people who say,
sometimes we're being overly sensitive about everything these days, everything's
a thing, but this is one of those ones that
I think. It's so interconnected to your personal belief about yourself,
your self worth, and your finances, your emotional well being
(19:08):
because of miscarriages, IVF and everything else that's going on.
It is one of those things that I think we
should be sensitive about with others, definitely, because it can
really make you distant in that relationship.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
I also think sometimes people ask because they don't know
what else to ask about people's life, and they think
it's a natural thing to speak about it. I think
it's more a cultural thing as well, because I actually
think that a lot of people ask because they don't
know what else to ask in a situation. They meet someone,
they've talked about, the weather, they've talked about Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
So now one of you guys having kids.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
And I think it's weirdly a very natural cultural thing
to do in certain settings, and it can come from
a place of worry, it can come from a place
of you know, interest or excitement. But at the same time,
I'm like, if you're not the person who's gonna be
looking after my child in some capacity, and and affect
(20:00):
your life.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
You do not need to know.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Like, there is zero unless you're my mom, who's gonna
have to look after me, unless you are somewhat in
relation or going to be there physically helping me during
that time. There is absolutely no need for you to
know when I'm going to be having that child. And
if I want you to know, I will definitely send
you a message or a voice no. But if I don't,
(20:25):
and I don't openly tell you, and this is probably
how many people feel, no needs, no needs, there's no
benefit to asking that question. There is, actually I will
I'll say that again, there is no benefit of asking
that question because if they know, they would have already
told you. And if they don't know, you're making them
anxious in some way. So actually zero benefit and asking
when are you having children? That's my conclusion of this
(20:45):
whole situation.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I love it. I love it. Yeah. And men, someone
get to deflect or tell the truth, which is I
always say it's Friday's body, it's when she wants like yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Men, also, can you know get someone men?
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Can men have like unmitted fertility? There are like sixty
year old men or seventy year old men that are
getting women pregnant, so I think there's less of a
You're never going to feel bad about it unless your
wife is going through something. It's never going to be
a triggering question really to a man.
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(22:52):
is this idea of parenthood still equates to success in purpose.
And I think as societ it's seen that way, like
if you're a parent, you're doing the right thing, You're normal,
you're doing something good. And I actually found some quotes
from Tracy Ellis Ross on rejecting societal scripts. This was
(23:12):
in New York Times, and she said it undermined my
sense of worth and joy until I realized it was
somebody else's idea. I do not believe that my life
is unworthy because I don't have children. I do not
believe that my life is unworthy because I don't have
a partner. I mother. All over the place, you were
saying this, I do very valued things in the world
(23:33):
for people I love. That's a really interesting like, you know,
going back to that point that you made of people
feel alone if they don't do that.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I do think though, when when you think about all
spiritual pathts, religious paths, when you think about evolution and
how they talk about the human body, there is such
a strong there is no question of in any of
those things, whether men and women were made to procreate.
Think about Adam and Eve, think about any of the scriptures,
(24:06):
any of the religions that you've seen. Everything does lead
to you are here to procreate, even as our If
you're thinking about take God out of this, how the
human body has been created, it does show towards that
is why we are here, that is survival, and.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I don't have the answer for it, but when I
do think about it in that way, it's kind of
it's interesting to think about, Okay, so, how can we
have gone towards this path of saying we shouldn't be
doing something that our bodies made for that if you
believe in a certain religion or a specific path, they
are saying that is what our essence is is to
create a beautiful child in this world to help other people,
(24:45):
whatever that notion is, but that there's such a strong
wave going against it, which it's just interesting because I
struggle with that idea of both.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I think everyone today is looking at their inner child
and then thinks about having a child, right like you're
you're almost so aware of how much therapy, healing and
work you need. You feel inadequate and.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Unqualified, feel like a child having a child?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Correct, You literally feel like I haven't even figured what's
going on here? How am I meant to figure out
what's going on there?
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I'm sure there's a lot of unworthiness that plays into it,
like when you if you don't feel good in yourself,
you think how am I going to do that to
a child? And then at this on the flip side,
we've spoken about this before that there are so many
couples who think having a child will help their relationship.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Oh my gosh, we have to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
And that's really interesting because I think there's one side
where people don't feel prepared enough, and I think I've
gone on that side a lot, where I'm like, God,
I need to be way better before I have a child.
And then there's this other side and thinking whether you're
whether you're going to mess a child or like, there's
so many things that have gone through my mind that
have stopped me. And then there's this other group of
people who really strongly believe that having a child will
(25:57):
fix them or the pain that they've been through as
a child, or you know, my friends. I've got a
lot of friends who were raised by single mums, and
it was really interesting their mindset was really similar and
not saying this for everyone, but my friends who had
this where they fundamentally believe them having a child breaks
the cycle so that they could give the love that
they didn't receive, like having this family set up.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Will make up for what they lax.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
And then the couples who are really struggling and decide
that having children will actually be the bridge between them. Yes,
it will help will help bridge the gap between them
that has been created.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, that was the advice that so many of my
friends got. Really but they were struggling in their relationships,
which is like, have a kid, it will solve it,
And it actually did the opposite. Those people ended up
becoming getting divorced or after having the kid too. And
so now you have a kid, which makes it harder.
Or their relationship got worse because now you had more responsibilities,
(26:53):
and I think that's what doesn't make sense, Like and
the man felt even less of a priority, So how
was it ever going to get better? So on all
of those levels, it actually made it harder. Now a
kid can be great, it's not like it can't. But
that can't be your hell, Mary, Like that can't be
the thing, Like, let's create life in order to save this.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
It definitely ties them.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
It's a lot of pressure to that person, to that kid.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, it's a pressure on the kid. And I think
there's a difference between creating connection and creating a tie
with someone. Yeah, they think the child can create a tie.
There's so many things that can create ties to people. Okay,
we've got a house together, that's a tie together. Balance, Yeah,
that's a tie together.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
A child.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yes, of course there is an emotional connection, but the
emotional connection is actually to the child, it's not necessarily
to the partner. That creates just another tie to keep
you strung together. But I don't know whether that action
if not done consciously and as a partnership, trying to
connect each other and be better with each other in
order to create this child, whether that creates a connection
(27:52):
or just a tie.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I love that point. That's such a great point. And
I was thinking about it as you were saying that. Yeah,
for those people who are told, like, have a to
save your relationship, what ended up happening was they lost
the relationship and now the kid was stuck in the
middle of a bad relationship. You know, it only creates
more trauma.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And pain for everyone, yeah, in the world.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
And so that shouldn't be the kind of last resort
or the hope. And you know, then you've got this
innocent child that's dealing with the fallout and the stress
and the panic that comes from it, and it makes
hard for both parents to move on, whether it's in
future relationships or whatever it may be. That because now
they have that Yeah, yeah, I still got it. And
(28:36):
it's really really hard because the challenge is when you
marry someone, you don't really know how much they're going
to change and grow and you have no clue. Like
it is such it is such a I don't want
to say the word gamble, but it is something that
because you meet someone at a certain stage in your life,
you create life with them and then ten years on
(28:59):
you've realized they had trauma, a mental health challenge, they
have something that happens to them, and everything changes. Yes,
And so you can't plan this perfectly either. You can't
say like, oh, yeah, we'll have a kid when things
are perfect. It doesn't work like that either. So there's
no right advice or wrong advice. And I'm not trying
to give any advice here. I'm just trying to say
that there's there's a reality to this where we're all
(29:21):
just living life, I know, and you're adapting as it
goes along, and you're not going to get everything right
in perfect order. And it's better to be able to
react and adapt and be flexible than it is to
think I'm going to get everything perfect and avoid all
the stuff. Definitely, So even when we're like I'm not
(29:41):
worthy enough to have a child, the truth is you
never feel worthy. You are going to make mistakes. It's
probably true that your child's going to, you know, end
up with a few things that you said.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You might mess them up a little bit, a little.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Bit, it will happen. It's probably better to assume and
then try your best than it is to think I'm
going to avoid anything, and then it's like you end
up putting bubble wrap around your kid, but then that
bubble rapp suffocates them. Yeah right, And it's like, so
it doesn't make any sense, Like you're trying to protect it,
but the same thing that you think is going to
(30:13):
protect it is what hurts the kid, and it hurts
you rather than going you know, I'm going to make
some mistakes. I'm going to try my best. Yeah, maybe
they are going to hear me shout and yell a
couple of times. Maybe they are going to see me
stressed and tired, because that's life, you know if and again,
we don't want to end up in a position where
we're being neglectful. But I think there has to be
(30:34):
some grace and reality to what it means.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I think one of the really interesting areas is that
women in the workplace or entrepreneurs, they're building a career
for themselves. We talked about how the financial struggle is
making it harder for couples to think about kids, but
for women especially they have to go on maternity leave,
they'll take some time out. Not all organizations and companies
have great maternity leave, so you may not even get
(30:59):
that long, you may take unpaid leave, which again financially
impacts you. If you're an entrepreneur, your business can to stall,
stop or at least slow down, and then you go
back to the workplace and you feel like you've gone behind. Right,
whether you've taken nine months out, whether you've taken six
months out, whether you've taken four months out, you're catching
up and it can be really, really hard. What have
(31:21):
your thoughts been on that, On the idea of like
having a slow down career? Was you? You know you
last year you launched your book, you have your own podcast,
You've got so many exciting things going on when you
think about kids and how to balance it with that,
how do you look at that?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, I really struggle with the idea because I know
I made a decision and well, at least I think
this is the decision I want to make. Is that
if I, if we have children, I would want to
be able to look after the child fully. And I'd
have loved to have help from other people to help
look after myself, but I know that I would want
(31:55):
to look after the child, and so that comes with
a lot of you know, there's so much to think
about That would mean I would have to have full
focus on this child.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I would have to stop.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Doing a lot of the things that I am doing,
because realistically, I yes, you can do a lot of
different things, but can you do them as well?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Probably not.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
If I'm trying to put full focus into raising a child,
probably can't keep up with all the work that I'm doing.
And so I think, you know, sacrifice comes with such
a negative connotation to it, but I actually think it
can be such a beautiful thing where different times in
your life you see yourself prioritizing different things, And so
if I think that's how I'm trying to see it instead,
(32:34):
where the priority lies here, that means that I may
not be able to do as much, but I can.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Still probably pre plan.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
We've got nine months to plan and figure out how
am I going to financially figure this out, figure out
with my work, figure out with my physical body, how
am I going to look after myself whatever those other
priorities are. I do think you have to decide, because
you know, I think there's this big notion that yeah,
women can do or of course we can do it,
but she be at that time where your body's trying
(33:02):
to healere you've got a new little thing that's come
into your life that you're trying to nurture and look after.
And so yes, I'm sure women can do it all,
but I didn't know whether we should be doing it all.
And I think being okay with that and everything you
said is preparation, preparing my mind that maybe I won't
be able to do this, this and this while for
(33:23):
the first year of this baby's life. And that's okay,
because what I am doing is nurture and creating and
pouring all my energy into creating a beautiful child. And
so I think it's the prioritization and the preparation in
your mind of being okay with what could happen so
it's not shocked and then you don't end up feeling
really depressed afterwards. That I thought my life was going
(33:45):
to be all these things. I was going to work
out at seven am. I was going to feed the
child at twelve, I was going to do all my
work from twelve to six.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
I was going to put the baby to better.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
This time, I was that I'm not sure that's how
it can be, And so preparation and being realistic with
that preparation I think is really important. But then again,
I've never been through it. I've just seen it, so
I can say all this and I'll be a hot
mess after who knows.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Who knows.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah, I wanted to share some real world voices. This
was via Business Insider, and a lady named Viviana had
her first child at thirty six. She said, I don't
regret waiting. I think it was the right thing to do.
Molly had her first child at thirty eight. She said
it felt irresponsible to even start thinking about a baby
(34:27):
when I was worried about paying rent and college debt. Yeah,
And I just want to remind people that when you're
navigating this pressure, whichever stage you're at, whether you want
to have kids, whether you don't want to have kids,
whether you're at any point on the spectrum that me
and Rady have talked about today, you can have the
conversation we've talked about it, and this is the timeline
that works for us right now. That's a great mantra
(34:49):
to kind of repeat to yourself, almost like me and
my fat I have talked about it. This timeline works
for us, and we're building a life that's right for us.
Even if it doesn't look like everyone else's. I think
the take away from this conversation for me is we
don't want to live a life ticking society's boxes or expectations,
because we end up letting ourselves down. We end up
(35:10):
letting society down, and we'll end up letting our child down.
We've got to go at our own timeline and ultimately,
whether you choose to have children or not, life can
be fulfilling, complete and beautiful because it's all about having
that energy. If you have a space to share your
maternal and paternal energy, it can be a beautiful thing.
(35:31):
I know so many friends that have adopted and are
very happy.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I know so many friends that don't have children, who
are monks who have just given their life to thousands
of people that are happy. And I know families that
have two, three, four, or five children that are really
happy at different ages. And so happiness doesn't have a
timeline or an age or a specific setup. Even if
you look at the projection of the nuclear family in history,
(35:55):
whether as serial boxes or adverts, it was always parents,
a boy and a girl. Yeah, and like that was
seen as like the nuclear ideal family. It's in every
advert and that's just not the image that we need
to project. We need to realize that happiness and fulfillment
looks very different for different people. So true, great, thanks
(36:16):
for that. I learned so much. I'm so glad you
brought up so many things that I hadn't even thought about.
That's why I love these conversations, because, yeah, you went
in so many directions. I was like, oh my god,
I forgot about that, or we haven't talked about that before.
And I learned so much. And it's helpful for me
to get a good understanding from your perspective and what
your friends who have had babies think, because as a man,
(36:36):
sometimes I can be distant from that.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
So when I realized this was the first topic that
you thought of, I was like, damn, we're really getting
into it.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
We are first episode out, and it's.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Why didn't you just tell them to subscribe for more
so that they can hear more of these conversations.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Jane just asked me to tell you all to subscribe
for more so you can hear more of these conversations
and press like and share and stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Hey everyone, if you love that conversation, go and check
out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Lourie Gottlieb,
where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in
therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating.
If you're trying to figure out that space right now,
you won't want to miss this conversation. If it's a
(37:25):
romantic relationship, hold hands.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems.
Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.
Host
Jay Shetty
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