November 8, 2025 • 36 mins
Today, Jay and Radhi explore why it feels like so many men are losing touch with real friendships, and the quiet epidemic of loneliness that often goes unnoticed. Jay shares surprising research showing that more men than ever report having few or no close friends and opens up about his own journey of maintaining meaningful male friendships across continents. Together, he and Radhi explore how cultural conditioning and social expectations have shaped the way men connect, often through shared activities rather than emotional honesty, and why vulnerability can still feel risky for so many.
Through humor and genuine reflection, Jay and Radhi invite us to rethink what friendship really means, how we can create spaces of emotional safety, and build communities that feel like home. Jay reminds us that friendship isn’t innate; it’s something we grow into through practice, vulnerability, and care.
In this episode, you'll learn:
How to Build Real Male Friendships
How to Be Vulnerable Without Fear
How to Recognize When You’re Lonely
How to Find Friends Who Match Your Energy
How to Open Up Emotionally in Conversations
Friendships don’t just happen; they grow through intention and care. If you’ve been feeling disconnected, take one step today, send that message, plan that coffee, open up a little more than usual. The courage to reach out might be exactly what someone else has been waiting for too.
With Love and Gratitude,
Jay Shetty
What We Discuss:
00:00 Intro
00:52 Why Do So Many Men Feel Lonely?
03:41 The Power of Male Vulnerability
06:58 Rethinking the Alpha Male Mindset
12:06 There’s No Growth Without Vulnerability
16:06 Men Need Friendship Dates Too!
21:35 Do You Truly Feel Seen?
25:33 How Loneliness Impacts Your Health
28:22 Why Women Often Build Stronger Social Circles
31:35 Learning How to Be a Better Friend
Episode Resources:
Radhi Devlukia | Website
Radhi Devlukia | YouTube
Radhi Devlukia | Instagram
Radhi Devlukia | Facebook
Radhi Devlukia | TikTok
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The male loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yeah, that's me.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm so lonely. I just.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Nobody to talk too. Unfortunately. I want to be wanted,
I want to be loved, I want to be appreciated.
I want to have nobody to talk to.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yay, I don't know nobody to come for me. Gay.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Why are men so lonely?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
You don't need to have one hundred people at your
birthday party. You need three people that you can go
to when you're in your hardest moments.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Fifteen percent of US men reported having no close friends.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
One of my friends said that one of her biggest
eggs is seeing a man cry.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Being vulnerable has been a long term difficulty.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
These days, women seem to want a man who is
emotionally available, but not emotional.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sometimes I just don't feel seen.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Sometimes you do have to go outside of what you've
been used to. If you are trying something new with yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
As a man, If you're listening to this right now
and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to this week's episode of On
Purpose with Jay Chetti and Radiy Dvlkia. We have created
these moments of conversation so that we can share a
lot of the things that we discuss in our car
journeys when we're traveling places when we have space and
time to actually think about what's happening in the world,
(01:25):
the conversations we're having with friends, and sharing all the
things that people are finding a little bit difficult, and
just you know, having open ended, curious conversations based on it.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, we wanted to find a space where we could
share conversations we're having and whether you're watching this on
your own, or whether you're watching this with your partner,
or whether you're watching this with a friend, we just
wanted to engage in conversations that we think people are having.
They may not know who to go to and where
to turn to, and so we hope that this provides
a space and an open forum to have those in.
(01:56):
Today's topic is why are men so lonely? And this
is based on something that researchers are calling a friendship
recession among men. So, just to set it up, fifteen
percent of US men reported having no close friends fifteen
percent in twenty twenty one, which is up from three
(02:19):
percent in nineteen ninety. Only thirteen percent of men have
ten plus close friends, which is down from thirty three
percent in nineteen ninety and one in four US men
under thirty five report feeling lonely. One in four men
under thirty five report feeling lonely, with US men ranking
(02:41):
lonelier than peers in the most developed countries, and loneliness
was declared a national epidemic by US Surgeon General Vivicmorti
in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
That is honestly really sad though. But who also knew
that Akon was so right with the songs he was
singing in the day. What here's a song lonely?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I don't think people going to even remember that you're.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But you know justin bieber As a song called lonely
does he Yeah, that's one of my favorite No so good.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
But all that to say that men aren't really speaking
about it, but we're just not listening, That's what That's
what That's really what it is. People are somehow talking
about it, but we're not listening. It's so interesting because
with men, I noticed that men often travel in groups.
Like recently, I've been laughing with my cousins because we
go to the gym and there's these packs of men
(03:36):
that come in. You know, girls will be alone, they'll
be doing their own thing, but there are two, three,
sometimes a pack of six men who are hyping each
other up in the gym working out. Like I noticed
that a lot, and but I noticed it so much
more in sports. And so when I was thinking about it,
I realized that so many men connect through activities. Women
connect through We'll go get our nails done together. That's
(03:59):
a space talk. You can't do much else but talk.
You go get a coffee. What do you do You
talk and have a coffee. And I think a lot
of the way that women spend time together creates space
for emotional conversations, creates space and time to have that,
whereas a lot of the time when men meet, they
go to the pub to watch a game, they'll they'll
play in activity. It doesn't leave room or space to
(04:22):
have a conversation except for before like oh did you
watch that game? And then after it's like, oh, yeah,
I'm gonna go watch the other game. And so I think,
is that what men's sound like? Yeah, that's what they
sound I'm just gonna have a point. But I think
that the way that they spend time together kind of
reflects what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah, that's that. Yeah, I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You can get your nails done more together.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Okay, you're right that I have to make a concerted
effort to find time to talk to my friends before
or after we play pickleball or paddle or whatever it may be.
So you're spot on the way I like to spend
time with my friends is we play sports together where
outdoors to other we're watching a game together. So I
have to make an added effort as a man who
(05:04):
does not feel lonely, I have to make an added
effort to spend time with my friends. Now I get
this question a lot because we also both moved and
so I live in LA. Now we live in LA
and we were born and raised in London. So all
my best friends are my friends that know me the
best know me. Three sixty all live in London, and
(05:25):
one of them just moved to Dubai. And so when
I tell people that I speak to my best mate
who was my best man at my wedding, three times
a week, most people are absolutely shocked. Yeah, they're like,
how Now I have to give credit because he also
picks up. He also makes time. He also makes a
(05:46):
massive effort. But the reality is that at one point
I realized that if we were not talking to to
three times a week, I would feel lonely. Because he
is my closest friend, he does know me the best,
he has known me for the last twenty years. Yeah,
and so for me, that setup has what's allowed me
to not feel lonely because my life is busy. Also,
(06:08):
I think when you get married, naturally on the weeknights,
I want to spend time with you. Yeah, but we're
investing in our relationship, and my friends are in relationships
are also investing in their relationship. So if I'm now
only seeing mates once a week, maybe once every two weeks,
maybe once every month, how are we going to keep
that relationship up? How am I not going to feel
lonely because I don't have the time to be vulnerable.
(06:29):
If I'm only seeing you once a month, I may
not be confident or comfortable enough to open my heart
be vulnerable. And I think for men in general, being
vulnerable has been a long term difficulty.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
I think about a lot of the men that I've
seen and who've had that kind of surface level connection,
not surface level, but not a place of conversation with
their friends where they can really speak about their heart.
I'm actually feeling really like down today, like you would
not not normally hear a man say that to their friend.
How can someone who's used to doing these activities with
(07:03):
their friends, who's used to connecting to them based on
having a drink or going out and playing sport, how
do you make that transition? Because I saw this trend
on TikTok and it was these guys calling, well, you know,
the good night trend, but then it also turned into
the one way you call in sake, I'm just calling
to say good night to you. And then also there
was a trend saying, oh do you think I should
get therapy? A guy calling and asking their friends you
(07:24):
think I should get therapy? And it was really interesting
because you could tell the guys who don't have that
connection with their friends and be like, oh, why are
you being such a loser? Why do you go get
wow like or say do or saying you know, making
fun of it versus even believing that it could be true.
And so how would a guy who's so used to
having twenty years of this friendship where it's based on
(07:46):
jokes and laughter and not really talking about what's going on.
Make that switch, because that can be quite uncomfortable for
a lot of people, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I mean that you've raised such a good point and
I never saw that trend. But that's actually really sad
for me that even in this day and age, when
a man has plucked up the courage to say something
like that, that it's met with that kind of reaction.
Because you'd hope that there are athletes today who've talked
about their mental health.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Understand that's okay to that be okay.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It's time to talk, it's time to change.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
You know, you got so much responsibility as athlete to
your team. You know, youve got to play at a
certain level, your teammates counting on. You, got the pressure
for the media. But it's going through something when everybody
you know, things that you can't see, you can't touch.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
It is time for sport to accept its responsibility with
this issue. There are athletes and sports and actors and
musicians male who've spoken about the challenges with their mental
health on all their platforms. I feel like we're living
at a time with some of the toughest, strongest men
(08:54):
on the planet talk about these things, and so I
think we've got to shift the narrative that when you
say something vulnerable that you're weak, or that in some
way you're a loser, or in some way that you're
not strong. But I think as we have these athletes
and superstars talking about their pain, I think there's also
(09:15):
been a trend online which is of the alpha male,
which is this idea of if you're a high value man,
you don't talk about your feelings. You just have discipline
and you break through it. And I always find this
really really interesting because I consider myself to be quite alpha,
and I consider myself to be quite emotionally engaged, and
(09:36):
so I've always tried to do both, and I don't
see them as a paradox. I see both as strength.
So I'm disciplined, I enjoy working out, I enjoy competition,
I love all those things. Yeah you're nodding because you're like, yeah,
I'm extremely competitive. And at the same time, I think
talking about my feelings is really important, emotional vulnerability is
(09:58):
really important, and and being able to make space for
my friends and share is really important. So I think
a part of it is, first of all, accepting within
yourself that it's okay, right. I think even before you
start looking for people to share it with, do you
still think it's a weakness. Because if you think it's
a weakness, then when you share it and someone rejects it,
(10:22):
you're just going to go and climb into your shell
even more. But if you think it's a strength and
you believe it's value and you believe it's something you need,
I actually this is the hardest advice to give, but
it's true. You can have your friends that you play
football with and have bands with and have jokes with,
and if they're not the ones that you can share
this with, you may have to find a separate group
(10:44):
of friends where you can talk about these things. And
that doesn't mean you abandon your old friends. It doesn't
mean your old friends are bad. It doesn't mean you
have to leave them. It just means that you may
have to start creating a community of new men that
you can have this community with. Yeah, because if you're
being met with your loser dude, you don't need therapy.
(11:04):
You just need, you know, to get a pint down
the pope. Like, if you're being met with that, then
that's not an easy wall to break down.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Oh it's not.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And first you should try with your friends. You should
try with the friends you have, but if you don't,
you are going to have to start constructing a new group.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I've been seeing these really cool I don't know why
I'm getting these ads, but these really cool ads that
not ads. But you know, when there are retreats and
stuff happening, and there are so many men's retreats that happen.
Oh ah, yes, and I think, and you know, I
remember recommending this to a friend whose partner was struggling,
and I was saying, why don't you go on? Why
don't you meet completely new people who are going somewhere
(11:41):
for the same reason. If someone's going to a men's retreat,
that means that they are lacking male friends, they are
wanting to speak to people who are wanting to open
their heart, connect heal things from their past, whatever it is.
But sometimes you do have to go outside of what
you've been used to if you are trying something new
with yourself. And I think the other part that I
was gonna mention that I remembered seeing online was you know,
(12:04):
they are all these really funny I find them really funny.
But at the same time, I can see how for
a man who's trying to be more emotional it can
make you shut down. It's you know, when you have
to now treat your man like a princess and essentially
saying that men are being too emotional these days. And
I think these days women seem to want a man
(12:24):
who is emotionally available but not emotional. So they want
someone who's emotionally available, like oh, I need him to
understand me, and I want him to get where I'm
coming from, and I want him to be attuned to me.
But then I don't want him to cry, like I
don't want I don't want him to do or when
we're talking about X, one of my friends said that
one of her biggest X is seeing a man cry
(12:45):
or like be emotional. Wow, And I was like, oh wow,
Like okay, it's so interesting. But I do think whether
a woman says it or not, there's quite a few
people who feel that way, where a man crying is
still seen as being a weeks But I still want
you to be emotionally available to me. And so I
think for men seeing stuff like that online, we think
(13:06):
it's people think it's just funny but I think that
can be really difficult because it stops you then from
also being okay with the idea that I should be
able to cry, be unhappy, show that I'm feeling upset, depressed,
whatever it is. And so I think a lot of
what we see online can really play a role in
how we feel.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And that's what makes it hard for men because they
then think, now, whether that's Sometimes it's so interesting as
well because social media perception is also not reality totally,
but then we start believing that is, and then men go, God,
I can't share that emotion around her because she's going
to think I'm weak. But then I'm carrying this load
and I don't know what to do with.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It, which then changes me as a partner, as a
person to connect to other people.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And you would hope you taught me this and I
loved it when you said it to me years ago.
Which was this idea that and that's why your podcast
is called a really Good Cry. Was this idea that
crying and laughing are actually just the same, that there
are expressions of an emotion, and when you think something
is when you think something's really funny, you don't have
(14:12):
to think about laughing like you don't go, oh, that's
really funny. I'm now going to laugh. You just laugh
because it's funny. You don't have to think about crying
crying something that happens, when something affects you in your
gut or your heart or your emotion, you just cry.
You don't go on, now I'm going to cry.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
You also don't stop laughter. But people stop tears.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Correct, Yeah, people say stop crying, stop crying. You never
say someone stop laughing, stop laughing. Is it would be
a weird thing to say. Yeah, And we say, oh no, no,
don't cry about that. Don't cry about that. It's okay.
And it's like you wouldn't say don't laugh about that,
you know, unless you said offensive. This was earlier this year,
but Kendrick Lamar did a cover for Harpers Bizarre, and
(14:52):
in that piece he talked about.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
They not like us, they not like us. I'm a
wrong person.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
That is the right person. Good, all right? So he said,
j always going to be really impressed by that. He said,
my tears is all on the internet. So Lamar says,
in reference to a viral moment where he cried on camera,
and he goes, and now I look back, and I
love that moment. I love that that happened because it
(15:17):
showed me in real time expressing myself and seeing all
the work that I put forth actually come to life
in that moment.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Right, And that's Kendrick Lamar, like, who's you know? One
like I don't know how many Grammys this year and
performed at the super Bowl And he's saying that, and
he goes on to say, my pops, he was tough.
He never showed a weakness, and I learned to experience that.
But for what I do, there is certainly no growth
without vulnerability. If I understood the power of vulnerability earlier,
(15:50):
I could have had more depth and more reach to
the guys that was around me.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I don't know whether I'm more shocked at that or
the fact that you were at Drake concert last week
and I owe quote Kendrick.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Lamar, why are you trying to start beef?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I'm not I'm just saying, why are you starting beef?
And honestly, Kendrick, those are some bars.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Right, It's just it's I'm sharing that because I hope
it's empowering for men, because you see, you know, a
conversation Kendrick is like, yeah, rapper, He's having this rap
battle he's got at the super Bowl, you know, all
this stuff, and it's like, but this is what he's
saying about himself and his life. And he's talking about
how his dad was tough, his dad never showed any
weakness and he learned that. But he's actually saying, I
(16:32):
wish I learned the power of vulnerability earlier. And so
I'm like, that's coming from you know.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
It's really difficult for people who you know, just thinking
about him as a rapper, but it's I guess if
someone who's a rapper and in that scene and in
that environment can do something like that, it gives hope
to people who may be in an environment like we
were talking about before that find it difficult to break
out of that same cycle of spending time with people.
But I do think that the community is the key
(16:59):
fact to feeling like you can open up, and I
think building community is one of the hardest things that
people find. And that's why I think loneliness, especially in men,
if they're not if they're not in a partnership, that
also forces them to come together with couples and meet
other men it's like where do people meet other people?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, and that's what I think. But I think the
other challenges for men is that I think women like
to gather in groups, but sometimes men have better conversations
one to one. I was at dinner last night with
a guy that someone that I became friends with early on.
We're part of a meditation group that I was teaching.
I bumped into randomly at a grocery store once. We
(17:37):
spent three hours that evening together.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, we both have crazy travel schedules. We don't see
each other often, but we happen to be in London.
He's leaving today and we made time to go to
dinner together and I'm not we had We both had
the best time. It's so nice and we've probably spent
three hours talking. It was full on, open conversation, like
we dove in deep in thirty minutes and we both
walked away going we need to do that more. And
(18:00):
I feel like that, like when I'm with a man
one on one and we're at the same frequency, I
can lock in. Actually, when I'm in group environments, I
really struggle because you're trying to create a cohesive environment,
but there may be two guys over there who just
want to talk about the football. Yeah, there may be
another two guys over there who just want to talk
about whatever they you know, whatever's happening at work or
whatever it is. And then there's a couple of you
(18:22):
that actually want to go deeper, but you can't because
you can't direct what eight people are doing.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It throws off the frequency.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, whereas I feel like women will all talk about
one subject together, whereas I think a lot of men
I know personally that I feel building one to one
friendships is the space where I get to do that.
And it was interesting because this was talking about emotional
conditioning and how girls and boys start out on the
same trajectory of prioritizing friendships, but boys feel pressure to
(18:50):
give up their same sex friendships because it feels girly.
Oh So that idea of like hanging out together and
us talking about our feelings boys are conditioned to feel
that that's a girly thing to do what you.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Felt with that guy is called the bromance.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
One thing I learned as well was I needed I
needed friends in my industry because they also have a
shorthand for how I feel and That's how he felt too.
It's like having friends that are in a similar industry.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
You already have something in common, you already have an understanding.
But you know, I think women feel that way too.
I've been speaking about a friend that I've made recently
who feels I feel like I've known for so long.
But when you feel that connection to a friend, when
you feel understood by them, when you feel like you
can share a lot of yourself that you can't normally
with other people, it really is. I think friendships are
(19:40):
so close to the feelings of romantic relationships. And I
don't mean that in a weird way, but it really is.
It sparks the same excitement and because you feel understood.
And I remember you saying this, I think on my
podcast where you said not everyone is supposed to understand you,
and love is understanding and love is also so special
that you don't feel it with so many people. So, yes,
(20:01):
you feel in a romantic partnership, but how beautiful if
you can actually feel it with friendships too. And I
think women are feeling lonely as well. I think finding community, Yeah,
I think finding community for women is so difficult because
in women you also have this aspect of unfortunately, where
gossip is a big part of connection, and I think
(20:21):
that makes a lot of women feel insecure in friendships
because gossip ends up being a big part of it.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Now you feel like if you say something to someone,
they're going to tell someone else in the group, and
that trust being broken makes it uncomfortable to actually vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, I think so. I think that's a big part
of female friendship unfortunately, especially what I grew up with.
And I think this one to one connection what you said,
is very important because even for women, finding that one
to one connection where you feel you can confide in
this person. I think for women a big thing is
trust that can I trust what I'm telling this girl,
She's not judging me, She's not going to share it
(20:58):
with anybody else. I think that something that's quite rare.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting hearing about it from that perspective.
I've found the one to one thing to be the
solver for this. I've recommended it so many of my
male friends, and I've said, guys, we always hang out
in big groups.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I used to be a pack person. Yeah, No, I
mean I've always loved hanging out in big groups. And
I've recently started spending individual time with someone that I
really want to spend individual time with, and it makes
such a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it's also like,
you have to find people who want to do this,
So not every person I go out to dinner with,
like yesterday is somewhere where I walk away going, oh,
we could do this anytime, because maybe the conversation stays
surface level, so there is a bit of frequency matching.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
You have to assess the situation.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, Like, I don't think, and I also don't think
every friend of yours to be a real friend has
to have a deep conversation with. There are friends that
I'm happy to call up and be like, did you
see what Manchester United just did? Like I want to
have that relationship with them, and I would love if
that can also go to how are you feeling today?
But not every relationship has to do that, And so
sometimes I also feel we put too much pressure on
(22:06):
everyone in our life to be everything.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
What do you think of some good questions? And then
people could ask themselves, like men, what are some good
questions that men could ask themselves to understand am I
feeling like? Am I feeling like I don't have a
good connection with people, but then also questions that they
can maybe open up this idea of vulnerability with their
friends with that doesn't feel too scary or too intense.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
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do you have So if a man wants to know
whether he's lonely or not, do you have three friends
that you could call at three am and share something
that you're struggling with?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Even one friend?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Even one friend? Yeah, that that's something I would look at.
And then I would also ask, for a man, do
you have one friend that you could call to share
your biggest win with? Because sometimes that can be harder. Yes,
because sharing your pain is hard, But sharing your success
is harder because it can come across as bravado, arrogance, yes, etcetera.
(24:49):
And so you may feel you have to play your
success down. And so I think that's what I would
look at. So that helps you figure out whether you're
lonely or not. And then it's like, do you feel
you have someone in your life who doesn't judge you
and gives you the space to be all of yourself?
(25:09):
And that's what you said. Women need that too. We
all want a space in our life where we feel
seen and not judged. Yes, actually you say this, This
is really interesting. This guy came up to me. He
worked at the restaurant that I went to last night,
and he came up to me afterwards when I was leaving,
and he said, hey, I listen to the podcast. Really
love what you're doing. Me and my wife love what
(25:29):
you and your wife are doing. And he said, but
sometimes I just don't feel seen.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Interesting, And he said, sometimes I feel only successful people
feel seen, and I'm still trying to become successful and
I'm not there yet. And I said to him, I said, actually,
success for people also don't feel seen because they feel
seen through a particular lens, Whereas the most seen I
(25:55):
feel is when I'm with my wife or with a
deep old friend that I know, and they see all
of me. And I was like, you're going to feel
more seen if you spend time with people deeply and
individually than you are. If you have a global brand.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
If you have lots of eyes on you, you have.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Lots of eyes.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
You're seen.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
It doesn't mean you feel seen. It's like you have views,
but you don't feel seen. And because people are ultimately
catching you for thirty seconds and making a judgment on you. Yes,
and so anyway, I know I got off on a tangent,
but no.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
But that's really that's such a good point. I think.
You know, even when you're younger, you think you need
more friends and you have to have multiple people that
you can do different things with. But as you get older,
you realize that it's not necessarily about having how many
people you can invite to your birthday. I was planning
my birthday recently, and I think I have like eight
friends who I can call here maybe and I don't
(26:46):
even know what all of them are going to end
up coming. And at that time, it maybe realize how
how thankful I am for just those eight friends. It
wasn't oh, I've got twenty family members coming and like
eight friends coming. It was, oh, wow, I've got eight
friends that are here that I want to spend time with.
And then I was trying to collect other people and
add people to it. That I was like, do I
(27:07):
really need these people here? Or am I trying to
collect numbers to feel like I've got more friends unnecessarily?
And so I think the views versus being seen is
a really important part of when you're thinking about friendships,
because you don't need to have one hundred people at
your birthday party. You need three people that you can
go to when you're in your hardest moments, when you
(27:27):
feel like you've done something that you need to talk
about that you're judging yourself about, that you feel that
person's not going to judge you for, And that's so
much more important than having the thirty friends at your
birthday party.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I'm so glad you made my tangent relevant. Yeah, it's
really good. That's really good. But no, that's exactly it.
Like I think, I think a lot of men feel
lonely because we're always in crowds. That's the idea that
you're always in groups, And so that the same idea
that you're saying is that we've always been taught that
more friends means more happiness. Yes, and less friends can
(27:57):
actually equal more happiness if there's more intimacy more depth
to that relationship. Loneliness is linked to depression, anxiety, dementia, diabetes, stroke,
and heart disease, and loneliness can be as harmful as
smoking fifteen cigarettes per day.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, when I worked at the hospital, I would do
these clinics for elderly and it would be to do
with them not eating. And it was so interesting the
underweight people that used to come in in the elderly
clinics would be like eighty percent men and only twenty
percent women. Because they talk about how especially for men,
they're eating habits, the way that they connect to people.
(28:36):
If they're not having that interaction, and if their partners
passed away or whatever, they lose the world to do
much else in their life. And so it was really
interesting seeing how eighty percent of those people that were
coming in and our older state were people who were lonely,
spent most of the time in their home. And even
when it came to dementia, it says being in a
(28:57):
community or feeling a sense of purpose in your life,
whether it is within a community or whether it is
with your partner, completely changes the trajectory of your The
progression of dementia and your longevity and the feeling of
being wanted and needed in this world is so important
to help keep your mental state alive, And so for
(29:19):
men especially, I think there's a I've seen so many
older women who are able to get back up faster
once their partners died, but I think naturally for a man,
from what I've seen, it ends up being a lot
more difficult. So I think that's another reason why having
friends is so important. Don't think about it for now,
you have to think about it for your future of
when you are in a situation where maybe you have
(29:41):
to be alone or away from your partner. Do I
have people that I'm going to be able to turn
to in those moments, because that's what community is supposed
to be there for.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, And and the research shows that men are happier
when they're married, but women are unhappier when they're married. Really,
or at least I think your study says that men
live longer when they're married and women don't live as
long when they're married, because I've seen them and carry
on more stress. Yeah, and men are actually helped by
(30:10):
the marriage.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
You notice that when people lose their partners at a
young age or in an old age. Men struggle so
much more than women do. Women are just used to
going through the pain. They also are use to most
of the systems and the things that they have to
do in the house, like they're able to adapt faster,
whereas they think for men that's really difficult.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, this one was really interesting and it's kind of
based on what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
There's this.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Jeffrey Hall, a professor of communication studies at the University
of Kansas who studies friendships. He previously found it can
take two hundred hours to make a close friend two
hundred and he talks about how men rely on their
wives to develop the social calendar, so they think they'll
do it and I don't have to do it, and
(30:53):
he says that there's a challenge in their skill set.
So it's the idea that women plan the social calendar
and men just tag along to whatever the women plan,
and so they don't ever think about, well, I need
to find the mayor, I need to do this, I
need to do that. My wife's kind of planned the weekend,
or just do whatever she says, and so he doesn't
really spend that much time.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So good at planning your social calendar. Yeah, but you've
really had to work at it.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, I've just think you've really.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Had to make a point of saying, two days a week,
I'm going to meet friends. I'm going to catch up
with this you've got. I feel like you've got a
good system in place of these are the friends I
need to catch up with once a month, I'm going
to do this with this person. Once a week, I'm
going to meet this person. And it's good You've you've
really learned how to create that cycle and system to
make sure that you do connects.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, that's why I like it important to think about
their life, like, think about everything mathematically, and everything becomes simpler.
Right if you make it about you know, how you're feeling,
how you're feeling on that day, it will just it will,
you know. There's so many times like yesterday, before the dinner,
I was so close to canceling because I was a
bit tired. Yeah, so glad I didn't. And that's where
systems help. And so it's like who do you want
(31:57):
to see once a week, who do you want to
see once a month, who do you want to see
once a quarter, and who do you want to see
once a year. If you have a list of the
people in those buckets, Yeah, it becomes really really simple.
So I'm with you every day whenever we're in the
same country, we're together every day, which is awesome. And
then but then there's friends. I'm like, okay, I'm going
to see you once or twice a week. I'm going
to see you, and that allows me to simplify my
(32:20):
life and now it's not random. And then I don't
go three months and go, why haven't I seen that person? Ye,
them like I love seeing them, and it's like, well, no,
just have it in the system. And now I don't
have to feel that way. And so I'm just allowing
myself to be more effective with friendships. And people think
that that might be business like or transactional. Actually that's
what love and respect actually is, where it's like, I
(32:41):
respect you enough, you're in the calendar, I want to
see you every month, and it allows us to deepen
our friendship and then at the end of the year,
we get to think about all the amazing memories we make.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I think what we all have to realize is that
friendship is a learned skill and it's not something you're
born with. And so we almost assume that people should
know how to be a good friend. We assume people
should know how to be a good partner, We assume
someone should know how to be a good parent, And
the reality is all of those skills are learned. And
so for me as a man, if you're listening to
(33:13):
this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you
to know that there are other men out there that
feel lonely, which means that you actually have the opportunity
to become community for each other. And that truly starts
with you having the courage to share something vulnerably openly,
honestly and seeing who matches that frequency. And it's as
(33:35):
simple as that is. Not everyone's going to match your frequency.
Someone might joke with you, someone might laugh at you,
someone might just play it off. That's okay, because chances
are'm five to ten years time, they may come back
to you and say, I'm sorry I did that. I'm
going through something right now, but for now they aren't
that person. That doesn't mean they're bad, it doesn't mean
you reject them. Just go find the people that you
(33:57):
want to connect with. How have you seen men in
your life apart from me struggle or do well in friendships?
What has worked for them and what has not work
for them?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I think sometimes well, especially in our community, men have
a lot of family members that they can like socialize with.
But I have noticed as time goes on, you know,
I think about my dad and I remember he used
to have like a huge social life when he was younger,
and then as he's gotten old and older, that Paul
has definitely gotten smaller and smaller. But he I randomly
(34:29):
walk into his office or I'll randomly walk into the
room and he's having a conversation with his best friend,
my uncle, who he's known since he was at university,
and they're talking about things, whether it's through their physical
health or they're you know, here and there. But they'll
still have these once a month catch up conversations. He
doesn't really see them. They don't go out necessarily, they
don't go out and have a meal together. But he
(34:50):
has these two or three people who I know he
is speaking to. There's like Andreas, there's my uncle, there's
one other person. I know that he has these people
that will checking in on him and that he's checking
in on And so I think friendships also change as
time goes on. They don't have to look the same way.
You don't have to be going out. I don't mind
keep saying the pub. Why don't keep thinking about that's
a thing. You don't have to keep going out to
(35:11):
the pub to meet your friends. But you know that
those people are still available to you. And so I
think what you were saying is can you make that call?
I know my dad seems like I always wonder, oh,
it's my dad got friends and he's going out and about,
But actually he's got those people he can call. And
I think that's something that's built over time university and
(35:31):
he's in his seventi he's like seventy now, and he's
kept that connection from that point. He knows every time
I struggle with anything or he thinks he needs something,
he calls them and he knows that they've got the
advice or they've got the ability to help him. And
I think that has been again, it's a learned skill.
It's been built, learnt and built over since he was
twenty years old till seventy. And that takes work. That
(35:53):
takes the phone calls every week, the checking in every month,
showing up when something's happened in their life, and so
I think it takes a lot more effort than just
this book a tennis court.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks for listening. Everyone, drop in the comments,
how you've been creating great friendships, what you're struggling with.
You'll even connect with people in the comment section, which
we'd love to see, and make sure you tag me
on Instagram and TikTok me and Radi on what's resonated
with you, what you're trying, and the great friendships that
come from this. So thank you for listening. Hey everyone,
(36:24):
if you love that conversation, go and check out my
episode with the world's leading therapist Lurie Gottlieb, where she
answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when
it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're
trying to figure out that space right now, you won't
want to miss this conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard
to argue.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as
you're having the conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
It's so lovely.
The male loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yeah, that's me.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm so lonely. I just.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Nobody to talk too. Unfortunately. I want to be wanted,
I want to be loved, I want to be appreciated.
I want to have nobody to talk to.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yay, I don't know nobody to come for me. Gay.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Why are men so lonely?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
You don't need to have one hundred people at your
birthday party. You need three people that you can go
to when you're in your hardest moments.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Fifteen percent of US men reported having no close friends.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
One of my friends said that one of her biggest
eggs is seeing a man cry.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Being vulnerable has been a long term difficulty.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
These days, women seem to want a man who is
emotionally available, but not emotional.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sometimes I just don't feel seen.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Sometimes you do have to go outside of what you've
been used to. If you are trying something new with yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
As a man, If you're listening to this right now
and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to this week's episode of On
Purpose with Jay Chetti and Radiy Dvlkia. We have created
these moments of conversation so that we can share a
lot of the things that we discuss in our car
journeys when we're traveling places when we have space and
time to actually think about what's happening in the world,
(01:25):
the conversations we're having with friends, and sharing all the
things that people are finding a little bit difficult, and
just you know, having open ended, curious conversations based on it.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, we wanted to find a space where we could
share conversations we're having and whether you're watching this on
your own, or whether you're watching this with your partner,
or whether you're watching this with a friend, we just
wanted to engage in conversations that we think people are having.
They may not know who to go to and where
to turn to, and so we hope that this provides
a space and an open forum to have those in.
(01:56):
Today's topic is why are men so lonely? And this
is based on something that researchers are calling a friendship
recession among men. So, just to set it up, fifteen
percent of US men reported having no close friends fifteen
percent in twenty twenty one, which is up from three
(02:19):
percent in nineteen ninety. Only thirteen percent of men have
ten plus close friends, which is down from thirty three
percent in nineteen ninety and one in four US men
under thirty five report feeling lonely. One in four men
under thirty five report feeling lonely, with US men ranking
(02:41):
lonelier than peers in the most developed countries, and loneliness
was declared a national epidemic by US Surgeon General Vivicmorti
in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
That is honestly really sad though. But who also knew
that Akon was so right with the songs he was
singing in the day. What here's a song lonely?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I don't think people going to even remember that you're.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But you know justin bieber As a song called lonely
does he Yeah, that's one of my favorite No so good.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
But all that to say that men aren't really speaking
about it, but we're just not listening, That's what That's
what That's really what it is. People are somehow talking
about it, but we're not listening. It's so interesting because
with men, I noticed that men often travel in groups.
Like recently, I've been laughing with my cousins because we
go to the gym and there's these packs of men
(03:36):
that come in. You know, girls will be alone, they'll
be doing their own thing, but there are two, three,
sometimes a pack of six men who are hyping each
other up in the gym working out. Like I noticed
that a lot, and but I noticed it so much
more in sports. And so when I was thinking about it,
I realized that so many men connect through activities. Women
connect through We'll go get our nails done together. That's
(03:59):
a space talk. You can't do much else but talk.
You go get a coffee. What do you do You
talk and have a coffee. And I think a lot
of the way that women spend time together creates space
for emotional conversations, creates space and time to have that,
whereas a lot of the time when men meet, they
go to the pub to watch a game, they'll they'll
play in activity. It doesn't leave room or space to
(04:22):
have a conversation except for before like oh did you
watch that game? And then after it's like, oh, yeah,
I'm gonna go watch the other game. And so I think,
is that what men's sound like? Yeah, that's what they
sound I'm just gonna have a point. But I think
that the way that they spend time together kind of
reflects what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah, that's that. Yeah, I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You can get your nails done more together.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Okay, you're right that I have to make a concerted
effort to find time to talk to my friends before
or after we play pickleball or paddle or whatever it may be.
So you're spot on the way I like to spend
time with my friends is we play sports together where
outdoors to other we're watching a game together. So I
have to make an added effort as a man who
(05:04):
does not feel lonely, I have to make an added
effort to spend time with my friends. Now I get
this question a lot because we also both moved and
so I live in LA. Now we live in LA
and we were born and raised in London. So all
my best friends are my friends that know me the
best know me. Three sixty all live in London, and
(05:25):
one of them just moved to Dubai. And so when
I tell people that I speak to my best mate
who was my best man at my wedding, three times
a week, most people are absolutely shocked. Yeah, they're like,
how Now I have to give credit because he also
picks up. He also makes time. He also makes a
(05:46):
massive effort. But the reality is that at one point
I realized that if we were not talking to to
three times a week, I would feel lonely. Because he
is my closest friend, he does know me the best,
he has known me for the last twenty years. Yeah,
and so for me, that setup has what's allowed me
to not feel lonely because my life is busy. Also,
(06:08):
I think when you get married, naturally on the weeknights,
I want to spend time with you. Yeah, but we're
investing in our relationship, and my friends are in relationships
are also investing in their relationship. So if I'm now
only seeing mates once a week, maybe once every two weeks,
maybe once every month, how are we going to keep
that relationship up? How am I not going to feel
lonely because I don't have the time to be vulnerable.
(06:29):
If I'm only seeing you once a month, I may
not be confident or comfortable enough to open my heart
be vulnerable. And I think for men in general, being
vulnerable has been a long term difficulty.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
I think about a lot of the men that I've
seen and who've had that kind of surface level connection,
not surface level, but not a place of conversation with
their friends where they can really speak about their heart.
I'm actually feeling really like down today, like you would
not not normally hear a man say that to their friend.
How can someone who's used to doing these activities with
(07:03):
their friends, who's used to connecting to them based on
having a drink or going out and playing sport, how
do you make that transition? Because I saw this trend
on TikTok and it was these guys calling, well, you know,
the good night trend, but then it also turned into
the one way you call in sake, I'm just calling
to say good night to you. And then also there
was a trend saying, oh do you think I should
get therapy? A guy calling and asking their friends you
(07:24):
think I should get therapy? And it was really interesting
because you could tell the guys who don't have that
connection with their friends and be like, oh, why are
you being such a loser? Why do you go get
wow like or say do or saying you know, making
fun of it versus even believing that it could be true.
And so how would a guy who's so used to
having twenty years of this friendship where it's based on
(07:46):
jokes and laughter and not really talking about what's going on.
Make that switch, because that can be quite uncomfortable for
a lot of people, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I mean that you've raised such a good point and
I never saw that trend. But that's actually really sad
for me that even in this day and age, when
a man has plucked up the courage to say something
like that, that it's met with that kind of reaction.
Because you'd hope that there are athletes today who've talked
about their mental health.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Understand that's okay to that be okay.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It's time to talk, it's time to change.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
You know, you got so much responsibility as athlete to
your team. You know, youve got to play at a
certain level, your teammates counting on. You, got the pressure
for the media. But it's going through something when everybody
you know, things that you can't see, you can't touch.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
It is time for sport to accept its responsibility with
this issue. There are athletes and sports and actors and
musicians male who've spoken about the challenges with their mental
health on all their platforms. I feel like we're living
at a time with some of the toughest, strongest men
(08:54):
on the planet talk about these things, and so I
think we've got to shift the narrative that when you
say something vulnerable that you're weak, or that in some
way you're a loser, or in some way that you're
not strong. But I think as we have these athletes
and superstars talking about their pain, I think there's also
(09:15):
been a trend online which is of the alpha male,
which is this idea of if you're a high value man,
you don't talk about your feelings. You just have discipline
and you break through it. And I always find this
really really interesting because I consider myself to be quite alpha,
and I consider myself to be quite emotionally engaged, and
(09:36):
so I've always tried to do both, and I don't
see them as a paradox. I see both as strength.
So I'm disciplined, I enjoy working out, I enjoy competition,
I love all those things. Yeah you're nodding because you're like, yeah,
I'm extremely competitive. And at the same time, I think
talking about my feelings is really important, emotional vulnerability is
(09:58):
really important, and and being able to make space for
my friends and share is really important. So I think
a part of it is, first of all, accepting within
yourself that it's okay, right. I think even before you
start looking for people to share it with, do you
still think it's a weakness. Because if you think it's
a weakness, then when you share it and someone rejects it,
(10:22):
you're just going to go and climb into your shell
even more. But if you think it's a strength and
you believe it's value and you believe it's something you need,
I actually this is the hardest advice to give, but
it's true. You can have your friends that you play
football with and have bands with and have jokes with,
and if they're not the ones that you can share
this with, you may have to find a separate group
(10:44):
of friends where you can talk about these things. And
that doesn't mean you abandon your old friends. It doesn't
mean your old friends are bad. It doesn't mean you
have to leave them. It just means that you may
have to start creating a community of new men that
you can have this community with. Yeah, because if you're
being met with your loser dude, you don't need therapy.
(11:04):
You just need, you know, to get a pint down
the pope. Like, if you're being met with that, then
that's not an easy wall to break down.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Oh it's not.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And first you should try with your friends. You should
try with the friends you have, but if you don't,
you are going to have to start constructing a new group.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I've been seeing these really cool I don't know why
I'm getting these ads, but these really cool ads that
not ads. But you know, when there are retreats and
stuff happening, and there are so many men's retreats that happen.
Oh ah, yes, and I think, and you know, I
remember recommending this to a friend whose partner was struggling,
and I was saying, why don't you go on? Why
don't you meet completely new people who are going somewhere
(11:41):
for the same reason. If someone's going to a men's retreat,
that means that they are lacking male friends, they are
wanting to speak to people who are wanting to open
their heart, connect heal things from their past, whatever it is.
But sometimes you do have to go outside of what
you've been used to if you are trying something new
with yourself. And I think the other part that I
was gonna mention that I remembered seeing online was you know,
(12:04):
they are all these really funny I find them really funny.
But at the same time, I can see how for
a man who's trying to be more emotional it can
make you shut down. It's you know, when you have
to now treat your man like a princess and essentially
saying that men are being too emotional these days. And
I think these days women seem to want a man
(12:24):
who is emotionally available but not emotional. So they want
someone who's emotionally available, like oh, I need him to
understand me, and I want him to get where I'm
coming from, and I want him to be attuned to me.
But then I don't want him to cry, like I
don't want I don't want him to do or when
we're talking about X, one of my friends said that
one of her biggest X is seeing a man cry
(12:45):
or like be emotional. Wow, And I was like, oh wow,
Like okay, it's so interesting. But I do think whether
a woman says it or not, there's quite a few
people who feel that way, where a man crying is
still seen as being a weeks But I still want
you to be emotionally available to me. And so I
think for men seeing stuff like that online, we think
(13:06):
it's people think it's just funny but I think that
can be really difficult because it stops you then from
also being okay with the idea that I should be
able to cry, be unhappy, show that I'm feeling upset, depressed,
whatever it is. And so I think a lot of
what we see online can really play a role in
how we feel.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And that's what makes it hard for men because they
then think, now, whether that's Sometimes it's so interesting as
well because social media perception is also not reality totally,
but then we start believing that is, and then men go, God,
I can't share that emotion around her because she's going
to think I'm weak. But then I'm carrying this load
and I don't know what to do with.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It, which then changes me as a partner, as a
person to connect to other people.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And you would hope you taught me this and I
loved it when you said it to me years ago.
Which was this idea that and that's why your podcast
is called a really Good Cry. Was this idea that
crying and laughing are actually just the same, that there
are expressions of an emotion, and when you think something
is when you think something's really funny, you don't have
(14:12):
to think about laughing like you don't go, oh, that's
really funny. I'm now going to laugh. You just laugh
because it's funny. You don't have to think about crying
crying something that happens, when something affects you in your
gut or your heart or your emotion, you just cry.
You don't go on, now I'm going to cry.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
You also don't stop laughter. But people stop tears.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Correct, Yeah, people say stop crying, stop crying. You never
say someone stop laughing, stop laughing. Is it would be
a weird thing to say. Yeah, And we say, oh no, no,
don't cry about that. Don't cry about that. It's okay.
And it's like you wouldn't say don't laugh about that,
you know, unless you said offensive. This was earlier this year,
but Kendrick Lamar did a cover for Harpers Bizarre, and
(14:52):
in that piece he talked about.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
They not like us, they not like us. I'm a
wrong person.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
That is the right person. Good, all right? So he said,
j always going to be really impressed by that. He said,
my tears is all on the internet. So Lamar says,
in reference to a viral moment where he cried on camera,
and he goes, and now I look back, and I
love that moment. I love that that happened because it
(15:17):
showed me in real time expressing myself and seeing all
the work that I put forth actually come to life
in that moment.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Right, And that's Kendrick Lamar, like, who's you know? One
like I don't know how many Grammys this year and
performed at the super Bowl And he's saying that, and
he goes on to say, my pops, he was tough.
He never showed a weakness, and I learned to experience that.
But for what I do, there is certainly no growth
without vulnerability. If I understood the power of vulnerability earlier,
(15:50):
I could have had more depth and more reach to
the guys that was around me.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I don't know whether I'm more shocked at that or
the fact that you were at Drake concert last week
and I owe quote Kendrick.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Lamar, why are you trying to start beef?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I'm not I'm just saying, why are you starting beef?
And honestly, Kendrick, those are some bars.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Right, It's just it's I'm sharing that because I hope
it's empowering for men, because you see, you know, a
conversation Kendrick is like, yeah, rapper, He's having this rap
battle he's got at the super Bowl, you know, all
this stuff, and it's like, but this is what he's
saying about himself and his life. And he's talking about
how his dad was tough, his dad never showed any
weakness and he learned that. But he's actually saying, I
(16:32):
wish I learned the power of vulnerability earlier. And so
I'm like, that's coming from you know.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
It's really difficult for people who you know, just thinking
about him as a rapper, but it's I guess if
someone who's a rapper and in that scene and in
that environment can do something like that, it gives hope
to people who may be in an environment like we
were talking about before that find it difficult to break
out of that same cycle of spending time with people.
But I do think that the community is the key
(16:59):
fact to feeling like you can open up, and I
think building community is one of the hardest things that
people find. And that's why I think loneliness, especially in men,
if they're not if they're not in a partnership, that
also forces them to come together with couples and meet
other men it's like where do people meet other people?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, and that's what I think. But I think the
other challenges for men is that I think women like
to gather in groups, but sometimes men have better conversations
one to one. I was at dinner last night with
a guy that someone that I became friends with early on.
We're part of a meditation group that I was teaching.
I bumped into randomly at a grocery store once. We
(17:37):
spent three hours that evening together.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, we both have crazy travel schedules. We don't see
each other often, but we happen to be in London.
He's leaving today and we made time to go to
dinner together and I'm not we had We both had
the best time. It's so nice and we've probably spent
three hours talking. It was full on, open conversation, like
we dove in deep in thirty minutes and we both
walked away going we need to do that more. And
(18:00):
I feel like that, like when I'm with a man
one on one and we're at the same frequency, I
can lock in. Actually, when I'm in group environments, I
really struggle because you're trying to create a cohesive environment,
but there may be two guys over there who just
want to talk about the football. Yeah, there may be
another two guys over there who just want to talk
about whatever they you know, whatever's happening at work or
whatever it is. And then there's a couple of you
(18:22):
that actually want to go deeper, but you can't because
you can't direct what eight people are doing.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It throws off the frequency.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, whereas I feel like women will all talk about
one subject together, whereas I think a lot of men
I know personally that I feel building one to one
friendships is the space where I get to do that.
And it was interesting because this was talking about emotional
conditioning and how girls and boys start out on the
same trajectory of prioritizing friendships, but boys feel pressure to
(18:50):
give up their same sex friendships because it feels girly.
Oh So that idea of like hanging out together and
us talking about our feelings boys are conditioned to feel
that that's a girly thing to do what you.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Felt with that guy is called the bromance.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
One thing I learned as well was I needed I
needed friends in my industry because they also have a
shorthand for how I feel and That's how he felt too.
It's like having friends that are in a similar industry.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
You already have something in common, you already have an understanding.
But you know, I think women feel that way too.
I've been speaking about a friend that I've made recently
who feels I feel like I've known for so long.
But when you feel that connection to a friend, when
you feel understood by them, when you feel like you
can share a lot of yourself that you can't normally
with other people, it really is. I think friendships are
(19:40):
so close to the feelings of romantic relationships. And I
don't mean that in a weird way, but it really is.
It sparks the same excitement and because you feel understood.
And I remember you saying this, I think on my
podcast where you said not everyone is supposed to understand you,
and love is understanding and love is also so special
that you don't feel it with so many people. So, yes,
(20:01):
you feel in a romantic partnership, but how beautiful if
you can actually feel it with friendships too. And I
think women are feeling lonely as well. I think finding community, Yeah,
I think finding community for women is so difficult because
in women you also have this aspect of unfortunately, where
gossip is a big part of connection, and I think
(20:21):
that makes a lot of women feel insecure in friendships
because gossip ends up being a big part of it.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Now you feel like if you say something to someone,
they're going to tell someone else in the group, and
that trust being broken makes it uncomfortable to actually vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, I think so. I think that's a big part
of female friendship unfortunately, especially what I grew up with.
And I think this one to one connection what you said,
is very important because even for women, finding that one
to one connection where you feel you can confide in
this person. I think for women a big thing is
trust that can I trust what I'm telling this girl,
She's not judging me, She's not going to share it
(20:58):
with anybody else. I think that something that's quite rare.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting hearing about it from that perspective.
I've found the one to one thing to be the
solver for this. I've recommended it so many of my
male friends, and I've said, guys, we always hang out
in big groups.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I used to be a pack person. Yeah, No, I
mean I've always loved hanging out in big groups. And
I've recently started spending individual time with someone that I
really want to spend individual time with, and it makes
such a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it's also like,
you have to find people who want to do this,
So not every person I go out to dinner with,
like yesterday is somewhere where I walk away going, oh,
we could do this anytime, because maybe the conversation stays
surface level, so there is a bit of frequency matching.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
You have to assess the situation.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, Like, I don't think, and I also don't think
every friend of yours to be a real friend has
to have a deep conversation with. There are friends that
I'm happy to call up and be like, did you
see what Manchester United just did? Like I want to
have that relationship with them, and I would love if
that can also go to how are you feeling today?
But not every relationship has to do that, And so
sometimes I also feel we put too much pressure on
(22:06):
everyone in our life to be everything.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
What do you think of some good questions? And then
people could ask themselves, like men, what are some good
questions that men could ask themselves to understand am I
feeling like? Am I feeling like I don't have a
good connection with people, but then also questions that they
can maybe open up this idea of vulnerability with their
friends with that doesn't feel too scary or too intense.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
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store near you. I think men that are lonely is
(24:05):
do you have So if a man wants to know
whether he's lonely or not, do you have three friends
that you could call at three am and share something
that you're struggling with?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Even one friend?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Even one friend? Yeah, that that's something I would look at.
And then I would also ask, for a man, do
you have one friend that you could call to share
your biggest win with? Because sometimes that can be harder. Yes,
because sharing your pain is hard, But sharing your success
is harder because it can come across as bravado, arrogance, yes, etcetera.
(24:49):
And so you may feel you have to play your
success down. And so I think that's what I would
look at. So that helps you figure out whether you're
lonely or not. And then it's like, do you feel
you have someone in your life who doesn't judge you
and gives you the space to be all of yourself?
(25:09):
And that's what you said. Women need that too. We
all want a space in our life where we feel
seen and not judged. Yes, actually you say this, This
is really interesting. This guy came up to me. He
worked at the restaurant that I went to last night,
and he came up to me afterwards when I was leaving,
and he said, hey, I listen to the podcast. Really
love what you're doing. Me and my wife love what
(25:29):
you and your wife are doing. And he said, but
sometimes I just don't feel seen.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Interesting, And he said, sometimes I feel only successful people
feel seen, and I'm still trying to become successful and
I'm not there yet. And I said to him, I said, actually,
success for people also don't feel seen because they feel
seen through a particular lens, Whereas the most seen I
(25:55):
feel is when I'm with my wife or with a
deep old friend that I know, and they see all
of me. And I was like, you're going to feel
more seen if you spend time with people deeply and
individually than you are. If you have a global brand.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
If you have lots of eyes on you, you have.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Lots of eyes.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
You're seen.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
It doesn't mean you feel seen. It's like you have views,
but you don't feel seen. And because people are ultimately
catching you for thirty seconds and making a judgment on you. Yes,
and so anyway, I know I got off on a tangent,
but no.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
But that's really that's such a good point. I think.
You know, even when you're younger, you think you need
more friends and you have to have multiple people that
you can do different things with. But as you get older,
you realize that it's not necessarily about having how many
people you can invite to your birthday. I was planning
my birthday recently, and I think I have like eight
friends who I can call here maybe and I don't
(26:46):
even know what all of them are going to end
up coming. And at that time, it maybe realize how
how thankful I am for just those eight friends. It
wasn't oh, I've got twenty family members coming and like
eight friends coming. It was, oh, wow, I've got eight
friends that are here that I want to spend time with.
And then I was trying to collect other people and
add people to it. That I was like, do I
(27:07):
really need these people here? Or am I trying to
collect numbers to feel like I've got more friends unnecessarily?
And so I think the views versus being seen is
a really important part of when you're thinking about friendships,
because you don't need to have one hundred people at
your birthday party. You need three people that you can
go to when you're in your hardest moments, when you
(27:27):
feel like you've done something that you need to talk
about that you're judging yourself about, that you feel that
person's not going to judge you for, And that's so
much more important than having the thirty friends at your
birthday party.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I'm so glad you made my tangent relevant. Yeah, it's
really good. That's really good. But no, that's exactly it.
Like I think, I think a lot of men feel
lonely because we're always in crowds. That's the idea that
you're always in groups, And so that the same idea
that you're saying is that we've always been taught that
more friends means more happiness. Yes, and less friends can
(27:57):
actually equal more happiness if there's more intimacy more depth
to that relationship. Loneliness is linked to depression, anxiety, dementia, diabetes, stroke,
and heart disease, and loneliness can be as harmful as
smoking fifteen cigarettes per day.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, when I worked at the hospital, I would do
these clinics for elderly and it would be to do
with them not eating. And it was so interesting the
underweight people that used to come in in the elderly
clinics would be like eighty percent men and only twenty
percent women. Because they talk about how especially for men,
they're eating habits, the way that they connect to people.
(28:36):
If they're not having that interaction, and if their partners
passed away or whatever, they lose the world to do
much else in their life. And so it was really
interesting seeing how eighty percent of those people that were
coming in and our older state were people who were lonely,
spent most of the time in their home. And even
when it came to dementia, it says being in a
(28:57):
community or feeling a sense of purpose in your life,
whether it is within a community or whether it is
with your partner, completely changes the trajectory of your The
progression of dementia and your longevity and the feeling of
being wanted and needed in this world is so important
to help keep your mental state alive, And so for
(29:19):
men especially, I think there's a I've seen so many
older women who are able to get back up faster
once their partners died, but I think naturally for a man,
from what I've seen, it ends up being a lot
more difficult. So I think that's another reason why having
friends is so important. Don't think about it for now,
you have to think about it for your future of
when you are in a situation where maybe you have
(29:41):
to be alone or away from your partner. Do I
have people that I'm going to be able to turn
to in those moments, because that's what community is supposed
to be there for.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, And and the research shows that men are happier
when they're married, but women are unhappier when they're married. Really,
or at least I think your study says that men
live longer when they're married and women don't live as
long when they're married, because I've seen them and carry
on more stress. Yeah, and men are actually helped by
(30:10):
the marriage.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
You notice that when people lose their partners at a
young age or in an old age. Men struggle so
much more than women do. Women are just used to
going through the pain. They also are use to most
of the systems and the things that they have to
do in the house, like they're able to adapt faster,
whereas they think for men that's really difficult.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, this one was really interesting and it's kind of
based on what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
There's this.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Jeffrey Hall, a professor of communication studies at the University
of Kansas who studies friendships. He previously found it can
take two hundred hours to make a close friend two
hundred and he talks about how men rely on their
wives to develop the social calendar, so they think they'll
do it and I don't have to do it, and
(30:53):
he says that there's a challenge in their skill set.
So it's the idea that women plan the social calendar
and men just tag along to whatever the women plan,
and so they don't ever think about, well, I need
to find the mayor, I need to do this, I
need to do that. My wife's kind of planned the weekend,
or just do whatever she says, and so he doesn't
really spend that much time.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So good at planning your social calendar. Yeah, but you've
really had to work at it.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, I've just think you've really.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Had to make a point of saying, two days a week,
I'm going to meet friends. I'm going to catch up
with this you've got. I feel like you've got a
good system in place of these are the friends I
need to catch up with once a month, I'm going
to do this with this person. Once a week, I'm
going to meet this person. And it's good You've you've
really learned how to create that cycle and system to
make sure that you do connects.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, that's why I like it important to think about
their life, like, think about everything mathematically, and everything becomes simpler.
Right if you make it about you know, how you're feeling,
how you're feeling on that day, it will just it will,
you know. There's so many times like yesterday, before the dinner,
I was so close to canceling because I was a
bit tired. Yeah, so glad I didn't. And that's where
systems help. And so it's like who do you want
(31:57):
to see once a week, who do you want to
see once a month, who do you want to see
once a quarter, and who do you want to see
once a year. If you have a list of the
people in those buckets, Yeah, it becomes really really simple.
So I'm with you every day whenever we're in the
same country, we're together every day, which is awesome. And
then but then there's friends. I'm like, okay, I'm going
to see you once or twice a week. I'm going
to see you, and that allows me to simplify my
(32:20):
life and now it's not random. And then I don't
go three months and go, why haven't I seen that person? Ye,
them like I love seeing them, and it's like, well, no,
just have it in the system. And now I don't
have to feel that way. And so I'm just allowing
myself to be more effective with friendships. And people think
that that might be business like or transactional. Actually that's
what love and respect actually is, where it's like, I
(32:41):
respect you enough, you're in the calendar, I want to
see you every month, and it allows us to deepen
our friendship and then at the end of the year,
we get to think about all the amazing memories we make.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I think what we all have to realize is that
friendship is a learned skill and it's not something you're
born with. And so we almost assume that people should
know how to be a good friend. We assume people
should know how to be a good partner, We assume
someone should know how to be a good parent, And
the reality is all of those skills are learned. And
so for me as a man, if you're listening to
(33:13):
this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you
to know that there are other men out there that
feel lonely, which means that you actually have the opportunity
to become community for each other. And that truly starts
with you having the courage to share something vulnerably openly,
honestly and seeing who matches that frequency. And it's as
(33:35):
simple as that is. Not everyone's going to match your frequency.
Someone might joke with you, someone might laugh at you,
someone might just play it off. That's okay, because chances
are'm five to ten years time, they may come back
to you and say, I'm sorry I did that. I'm
going through something right now, but for now they aren't
that person. That doesn't mean they're bad, it doesn't mean
you reject them. Just go find the people that you
(33:57):
want to connect with. How have you seen men in
your life apart from me struggle or do well in friendships?
What has worked for them and what has not work
for them?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I think sometimes well, especially in our community, men have
a lot of family members that they can like socialize with.
But I have noticed as time goes on, you know,
I think about my dad and I remember he used
to have like a huge social life when he was younger,
and then as he's gotten old and older, that Paul
has definitely gotten smaller and smaller. But he I randomly
(34:29):
walk into his office or I'll randomly walk into the
room and he's having a conversation with his best friend,
my uncle, who he's known since he was at university,
and they're talking about things, whether it's through their physical
health or they're you know, here and there. But they'll
still have these once a month catch up conversations. He
doesn't really see them. They don't go out necessarily, they
don't go out and have a meal together. But he
(34:50):
has these two or three people who I know he
is speaking to. There's like Andreas, there's my uncle, there's
one other person. I know that he has these people
that will checking in on him and that he's checking
in on And so I think friendships also change as
time goes on. They don't have to look the same way.
You don't have to be going out. I don't mind
keep saying the pub. Why don't keep thinking about that's
a thing. You don't have to keep going out to
(35:11):
the pub to meet your friends. But you know that
those people are still available to you. And so I
think what you were saying is can you make that call?
I know my dad seems like I always wonder, oh,
it's my dad got friends and he's going out and about,
But actually he's got those people he can call. And
I think that's something that's built over time university and
(35:31):
he's in his seventi he's like seventy now, and he's
kept that connection from that point. He knows every time
I struggle with anything or he thinks he needs something,
he calls them and he knows that they've got the
advice or they've got the ability to help him. And
I think that has been again, it's a learned skill.
It's been built, learnt and built over since he was
twenty years old till seventy. And that takes work. That
(35:53):
takes the phone calls every week, the checking in every month,
showing up when something's happened in their life, and so
I think it takes a lot more effort than just
this book a tennis court.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks for listening. Everyone, drop in the comments,
how you've been creating great friendships, what you're struggling with.
You'll even connect with people in the comment section, which
we'd love to see, and make sure you tag me
on Instagram and TikTok me and Radi on what's resonated
with you, what you're trying, and the great friendships that
come from this. So thank you for listening. Hey everyone,
(36:24):
if you love that conversation, go and check out my
episode with the world's leading therapist Lurie Gottlieb, where she
answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when
it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're
trying to figure out that space right now, you won't
want to miss this conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard
to argue.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as
you're having the conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
It's so lovely.
Host
Jay Shetty
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