How do you know when you’re ready to commit?
Do you think love alone is enough?
Marriage isn’t a destination, it’s a daily practice. It’s the ongoing choice to show up, grow, and recommit to each other through every season of change. In this special compilation, Jay brings together powerful insights from Jada Pinkett Smith, relationship coach Sadia Khan, psychotherapist Lori Gottlieb, and his own reflections with Radhi. Together, they explore how lasting love isn’t built on fleeting chemistry, but on emotional resilience, self-awareness, and the courage to evolve, side by side.
Jada shares how marriage can be a spiritual journey, where your partner reflects both your light and your flaws, guiding you toward unconditional love and deeper healing. Sadia reveals the often-overlooked truths about infidelity, self-control, and discipline, reminding us that love cannot thrive without trust. Lori highlights the power of honest communication, from setting boundaries with in-laws to having the tough conversations about money, marriage, and children before it’s too late.
In this episode, you'll learn:
How to Build Emotional Resilience in Marriage
How to Heal and Grow Through Partnership
How to Spot Signs of Emotional Distance
How to Create Space for Emotional Openness
How to Recommit as Your Partner Evolves
Every relationship faces challenges, but those moments can become powerful opportunities for growth when met with compassion and openness. The true beauty of love lies in the willingness to listen, to learn, and to keep building something real, together.
With Love and Gratitude,
Jay Shetty.
Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.
Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast
What We Discuss:
00:00 Intro
01:28 The Cornerstone of Family Life
03:58 When Divorce Feels Like the Only Option
08:44 The Power of Unconditional Love
14:14 Valuing How People Show Up
18:13 Every Marriage Looks Different
20:14 Rethinking Traditional Marriage
24:13 Do Women or Men Get Cheated on More?
26:19 Choosing a Man with Self-Control
27:59 Why Sexual Discipline Matters
29:45 Don’t Ignore These Red Flags!
32:35 Staying Attuned to Your Partner
34:28 Talk About Marriage Before the Proposal
37:43 Why a Baby Won’t Fix a Marriage
40:41 When Your Partner Doesn’t Stand Up for You
46:36 Building a Safe Space for Connection
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On this show, I've been so lucky to sit down
with some of the greatest experts on the planet, from
when it comes to marriage to romance, chemistry, compatibility, some
of the therapists that are working with hundreds of clients worldwide,
and people in the public eye who've opened up about
their own experience. You're going to get to hear from
(00:22):
all of them in just a moment, so make sure
you stick around the number one health and wellness podcast,
Jay Set Jay Shetty Set. When it comes to building
a lasting marriage, most people think it starts with romance
or chemistry, but it's actually something else. The real foundation
(00:44):
to a lasting marriage is emotional resilience. Think about this.
Nearly half of all marriages in the US still end
in divorce. The number one reason isn't a lack of love.
It's a breakdown in trust and communication. That's where everything
starts to fall apart. In this episode, we're going straight
(01:07):
to the heart of it, why people cheat and why
they stay, Why forever isn't a promise, it's a practice,
and how redefining love might be the key to saving it.
What you'll hear isn't fluff or wish well thinking, just
hard earned truths and relationships saving lessons. Jada Pinkett Smith
(01:29):
breaks down how marriage isn't a fixed identity, it's a
spiritual evolution. She opens up about separation, reconciliation, and the
patterns from childhood that shape adult love. The real lesson
is this, you don't just arrive in marriage. It's not
a finish line. You keep choosing each other over and
(01:51):
over as you both grow and change, even when life
gets messy, especially with big life changes. One study found
that's sixty seven percent of couples report being less satisfied
in their marriage after having children unless they work intentionally
to reconnect. As she describes here, you don't need a
(02:12):
perfect partner, You need a partner willing to grow with you.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
We really look at our marriage as being the cornerstone
of family. We're both kind of coming up with different
definitions of what marriage means for us. We're still figuring
all of that out. Yeah, but the beautiful part is
(02:37):
that there's been some really deep healing going on. Yeah,
I mean, you know that. I mean, at the end
of the day, that's what it's about. Marriage is so
much about growth, like really learning how to grow emotionally
like emotional maturity, spiritual maturity, and there's this spiritual bond there.
(03:02):
I mean, we've tried our best to get away from
each other. I mean, I mean our best, and we
just don't want to. So we are defining it the
way that works for us, and I think getting comfortable
(03:23):
with not being concerned about what anybody else thinks about it.
We have this life partnership and every day we're trying
to figure out what that means.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You've both talked about how you feel like you're a
mirror for each other. Yeah, and when I've spoken to
Will as well, it's like he feels like you're the
person who knows him to his care.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Absolutely, he knows you to.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Your care, like you know everything. Yeah, that potentially there
is to know about each other, and you're obviously still learning.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
What's really interesting about that is some people say, well,
why not just get divorced.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, everybody's always like, why don't you just get divorced?
And it's like, hmm, that's like quitting. I don't think
there's any person that could embrace the best and the
worst of me and be able be willing to hold
space in the way that will hold space for me
(04:22):
and the way that I hold space for him. And
I know that most people probably go into their relationship
as like you were here to please me, And yeah,
our relationship isn't quite that, you know. It's like it's
more about there's no greater mirror I could have than
(04:44):
will he doesn't. I can't get around myself just like
he can't get around himself with me. And I think
that that's just been what this has been all about,
Like it's been a deep clear like really having to
look at yourself in ways in that mirror that sure,
(05:07):
we talk about this all the time. Would it be
easier to go and find somebody else and have a
more pleasing, more comfortable relationship, maybe, But would that get
me to the person that I really want to be?
I don't think so. And I'm not saying that everybody's
relationship is supposed to be that. I'm not here to
say that. I'm just saying that that's what my relationship is.
(05:30):
That's something I desire to get to a deeper part,
a more spiritually sound, emotionally sound, and really understand love unconditionally.
And the thing that I've learned about unconditional love, you
(05:52):
can't really understand what unconditional love and ideal circumstances.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
To really get to.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
What it is to love yourself and someone else completely
with all that's divine, all that's human, all that's perfect,
and all that is deeply flawed, and have full acceptance
for it. All I tell you this is you know,
(06:26):
marriage is not for the faint at heart. It's just not.
And it is definitely I believe, I believe. You know,
different people get married for different reasons, so I'm not
trying to say why anybody else should be married, but
for me, the holy path of getting to a divine
aspect of myself in partnership with Will and it seems
(06:49):
like Will wants the same for himself. And it's taken us,
you know, I mean, we got together it what I
was twenty three, okay, twenty three when I first decided
to commit myself to Willard Carroll Smith, Lord Jesus.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
So young, so young.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
We were babies, babies trying to figure this out. And
you know what's interesting about young relationships. You create these
young patterns that get so like these really young immature
patterns in yourself and how you relate to your partner,
and then you create these dynamics between one another that
(07:36):
it takes a while to like really be willing to
look at that stuff and dissolve it and let it
go immature and grow. It takes some real like self inventory, patience, courage, right,
because you're breaking down everything, all your romantic ideas, everything
(08:01):
you thought you know, relationship or marriage, all your romantic
fantasies you know.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
Just.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You know, blow up in flames. But it's really been freeing.
It's really been freeing to see what's more true. Right.
I'm not saying that I know the truth yet. I
just feel like I'm seeing more of what's true, you know,
as regards to what love and partnership is about. Because
(08:36):
I was definitely one of those people that's like, you're
here to make me happy, and when you don't do it,
that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And that's a normal setup. That's how we believe relationships are.
And you know, I've talked about it before and I
put it forward in my book, this idea that we
think pleasure is the ultimate gift of a relationship, but
really purification is. And that's a really tough idea for anyone,
(09:03):
including me. I haven't perfected that idea for me to
wrap my head around, and I can honestly say that
I love Radi and you know you've seen us both
together and everything. But the greatest gift Radi gives me
is a mirror and a purification of RADI can call
out my ego better than anyone or anything, and I
(09:24):
know it's coming from a good place. Radi can show
me my flaws in the nicest, most supportive way possible
and can receive it back from me, And then I
feel like because of her, I'm trying to be better,
getting better, not for her, for myself. It's almost like
(09:44):
the person that you live with knows you so deeply,
or the person that you've seen has seen you in
all circumstances, in all situations, knows you the deepest. I
would say, RADI knows whether I woke up and meditated
in the morning. Yeah, Like RADI knows whether I got
angry or frustrated at night after a like Rodley knows that.
And if I use that to my advantage of am
(10:05):
I becoming, am I growing. But it's such a hard
concept for people to understand because it's so counterintuitive to
the pleasure seeking mind that we've been conditioned to chase.
And again, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a pleasure
in relationship. That's not the point I'm making. I'm just
saying that there's more to it, There's another level.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
There's definitely more to it. And I think we've talked
about this before, you and I. As far as people
believing that romantic love is the highest form. Now, I
believe that romantic love is an aspect right of a
higher form. But I don't believe that romantic self romantic
(10:49):
love itself is the highest form.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I believe within the highest form you can have romantic love,
but that romantic love is not of the highest right.
And that's all I've been examining and exploring with Will
and really trying to understand the power of unconditional love, friendship,
(11:16):
Like there's something about friendship, familial love that is beautiful.
But when two people can have an agreement around divine love,
like love of a source greater than yourself that you
(11:40):
want to be connected to, and then you decide that
your relationship is going to be connected to that same source,
oh boy, now we're onto something. Now we're onto something.
But to think that romantic love can hold all of
(12:03):
the difficulties and challenges alone. And I think that's why
so many of us get into these power struggles. And
while there's so many divorces and why they're you know,
just all of this strife and relationships, you brought up
something that was really important And it's the idea of
(12:24):
Roddy when she can kind of pull your coattails with love.
And I think that's it takes a lot of work
to figure that out, like to not be offended when
someone shows up imperfectly, and that those are those kind
of pieces within relationship, Like we feel like people are
(12:46):
supposed to come ready made. You walk down the aisland
and it's like he knows how to love me, you know,
I know how to love him, you know, and not
making room for that space of growth that is inevitable.
People are going to mess up. People are gonna do
stupid stuff, People are gonna say stupid stuff. Now when
(13:07):
it comes to abuse and all of that, that's a
different story, right, But people who are willing to learn
how to love each other, because I really do think
that's what committed relationships about marriage or not. I'm committed
to learning how to love myself, learning how to love
(13:28):
you right, and then learning how to cultivate this relationship
that we have with that essence, with those components. Then
that's a beautiful thing. That's what I believe the holy
path of relating is all about. And not everybody wants that,
(13:52):
you know, some people really just want the romantic version
of it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
And that's okay too, Absolutely, that's okay.
Speaker 6 (13:59):
Too, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
But for me definitely on that path of looking for
something deeper within myself mostly.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
How did you let go of that desire for romantic
love but then hold onto the friendship? Because I feel
like that's a journey that is so hard, whether someone
stays married or gets divorced or like you both are
you described yourself as best friends. How did you hold
on too friendship being able to let go of the
(14:34):
mirage that you had earlier, or even not even the mirage,
the reality of what you had earlier, as you talk
about in the book, you know, the chemistry, the spark.
I think so many of us are trying to hold
onto that. But you've let go of that, And then
you're saying, but we've held on to the friendship, the mirror,
the work, the growth. That sounds like the hard way
through it.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
I think it's how people show up, and people don't
always show up perfect clearly. But one thing about Will
and I, we're just not willing to give up. It's
like I'm lucky that we just want to have each
other in one another's life. Right, you have moments of disharmony,
(15:18):
but if you know that you're not willing to not
have that person in your life, you know you got
to put forth the effort and you got to put
forth the work to transform whatever's not working. So we
always make the decision to take that one step closer
(15:41):
to diving more deeply to learning how to love. And
most of the time it has more to do with
self inventory, having to go in the corner and look
at oneself and come back and go, I was tripping,
(16:04):
whether it's I'm sorry or I had a misunderstanding. Can
we look at this now together, because now I've looked
at it in my corner alone, and I've seen my
part and I want to talk to you first about
my part ABC and D right, and then inevitably usually
(16:27):
your partner go, well, you know I could have done
such and such and such, and so when you have
an agreement that's really unspoken of, like I want you
in my life and I want to have good times
with you and I love you. Then that's the energy
(16:48):
that nurtures and keeps one willing to just keep working
at it. So there's that deep love. And the great
thing is that Will's got a great sense of humor,
you know what I mean. He's got a really good
sense of humor. So he has a way of being
(17:10):
able to help me get out of my funk. But
I'm kind of like you talk about this a lot
with Roddy, where I kind of have to take my time,
Like I'm not always ready to talk right away. I
need to like sit, I need to be with myself,
I need to kind of like work through my thoughts
and all of that. Where Will is always ready to talk.
I like to go deep. He likes to get funny.
(17:31):
The great thing about him, he can go deep, and
there are times that I really like to play and
have fun. So we're like these energetic fields. You know,
I'm Earth and he's sky. You know, we are your
typical yin and yang, you know that. You know, there's
(17:52):
this great chemistry there between us that just works. And
but when it doesn't work. Oh Man, oh man, oh man,
you know what I mean, those moments, but it's just like, ah,
but I think that's just inevitable in every relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
You know, But it just doesn't look traditional. I think
that's the point. That's that's the part where it's like,
it just doesn't look traditional.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
It.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yes, there's the trust, there's commitments. Yeah, there's understanding, and
at the same time it doesn't look it.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Doesn't look traditional. I don't know. I'm being honest with you.
There are aspects of traditional relating that absolutely work. But
I think in this day and age, I don't know
too many marriages that are traditional.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
I really don't.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Everybody is trying to figure it out, right, and I
think everybody's so scared to talk about all of the
different ways that they're that they're trying to figure it out.
I know so many people who are like married but
not living together, married but have decided to have other partners.
(19:09):
I know so many people and have for a long
time that are trying marriage in so many different forms.
And my whole thing is figure it out for you.
Marriage is not a cookie cut out like formula. Besides,
(19:32):
I do think that there's some staples you know, love,
but even that, you can take that out for a second.
There's some people who are married strictly for business purposes.
I've seen that too. As long as there's agreement between
two people and how they decide they want to be together,
(19:52):
stay out of it. It has nothing to do. I
tell people all the time, don't look at my marriage
as being contagious. Whatever I'm doing, does it mean you
got to be doing that. You got to be doing
the thing that works for you. And I feel like
every partnership, two people have the right to figure that
(20:13):
out for them.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
And it's so different in norms, in different cultures and
different backgrounds. I mean, like for me and Radi, we
spend a lot of time apart because she likes to
be back with a family in London and I travel
for work. And so we discovered and agreed very early
on in our relationship that when I work, she would
often visit her family back in London and she loves it,
(20:35):
and she wants to be with her mom and dad
and her niece and nephew and her sister and brother
in law and everyone. And I love my purpose and
I want to be traveling. I want to be working
I want to be moving, and I remember so many
times in our relationship people be like, is everything okay? Yeah,
And then we go back to London and people be like,
why's your wife not with your People like why is
Jay not with you? And everyone starts thinking that there
(20:57):
may be something going on, and it's actually, well, no,
this was our agree this is something we've sat and
talked about and figured things out, and actually we love
distance because we get excited to see each other again.
It's refreshing. It works for us, and again it may
not work for anyone else. Someone may say I need
my partner by my set every day fair enough, and
someone may say I want to travel more than you
(21:17):
do or less. But we just found that having honest
conversations between us and knowing why we were making certain
decisions even though they were abnormal to our community, the
community that we grew up in, where the way we
live is very abnormal, even though it's just about time apart.
The point was we had an agreement that worked for us,
(21:39):
and I think getting to know you both, I can
honestly say that I feel like you guys are both
always honest and communicative with each other on what your
agreements are absolutely, and that's what we have been discussing
today as well, that you know, there's there's always been that,
that openness to do that.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Oh yeah, well I talk about it a lot in
the book. Absolutely, and I think that a lot of
people had a lot of misunderstanding as we talked about earlier.
I believe in regards to open relationship and being able
to be with whoever you want. Now, that's not what
was happening. And I think a lot of times that
people just didn't know that we had agreed to not
(22:18):
be together. As we were trying to figure out are
we going to be separated? Are we going to be divorced?
Then we would reconcile, and then we would break up again,
and there's all this back and forth between us that
we didn't share with the world a lot, you know.
And I think now people are just going to have
to be okay with our marriage is not traditional in
(22:44):
the sense of here we are married, but not you
know what I mean. And you know, as I'm on
my path and Will's figuring his thing out, we decide
it to hold space for each other.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Relationship Coach Sadia Khan shares a truth most people don't
even think about. More men are being cheated on than
we realize, but most of them stay silent. According to
a study by the CDC, men are more than fifty
percent less likely to seek counseling than women, which means
(23:41):
they're more likely to internalize this shame and carry it forward.
The lesson emotional reaction might feel good in the moment,
but it doesn't solve anything. What actually protects a relationship
is emotional regulation. Fireworks and passion fades, but stability, self control,
and discipline. That's what builds real trust and keeps a
(24:05):
relationship strong. It's not just about you and your partner.
Your relationship sets a blueprint for your kids, your family,
your future. Who you pick is your partner sets the
tone for the rest of your life. Cheating doesn't begin
in the bedroom. It begins in emotional distance. Spot the
(24:26):
signs early or spend time repairing it far too late.
What are the top three things that people you guide
and coach and follow you on social media come to
you for and say their number one issue is for men.
Speaker 6 (24:39):
They do suffer from a lot of infidelity. The women
are cheating on the men a lot more than I
ever expected.
Speaker 7 (24:45):
Really My number one client.
Speaker 6 (24:49):
Is a man who's just been cheated on by a woman.
And because there's not much talk about this on social media,
and there's not much talk about this in general, we're
almost programmed to think mensche Yeah, it is rare that
you'll find the idea of women chaging, and men don't
actually talk to each other when they've been cheated on.
They kind of keep it to themselves because they're almost embarrassed.
Speaker 7 (25:07):
Or a shamed.
Speaker 6 (25:07):
W As women, we can confide in each other a
bit more so, My number one client tends to be
the man that's been cheated on or the woman that
can't get the man to commit. That tends to be
the two feels I kind of have that seem to
attract in terms of clients. But men getting cheated on
or men not being masculine enough tends to be the
common theme of my clients that keep coming back In.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
What's the difference between the woman a man dates and
the woman a man marries.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
I would say the key difference is the element of
stability and responsibility, And what I mean by that is
being with a man who is super social, who's a
big drinker and has got all these friends in busy
or day every day and got this amazing life is
great for dates, you get to go on great vacations
with them, you get to go to red nice restaurants
and so on and so forth. But get when it
comes to getting married, if you don't look for a
(25:53):
man with a lot of self control, you will really suffer.
And what I mean by this is that he needs
to have self control in terms of his sexual disap
in he's self control in terms of what he puts
into his body, even the food he eats, everything, And
he needs self control when it comes to his money.
If in those areas he's got no self control. For dating,
no problem, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he can be sexually wild,
he can spend all his money, no problem. You can
(26:14):
enjoy a great life When you marry a man like that.
Every day's anxiety, every single day's anxiety, because his lack
of self control will lead to lack of self respect,
and as a result, he'll have such low self esteem
that you can't trust him to make decisions. But men
with lots of self control, you can trust that they
make great decisions. You can trust their judgment, and you
can finally start a family or start your goals, but
(26:34):
you can't do that with men who have got no
self control?
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Do you know what the amazing thing is that as
I was listening to you, I was thinking about, like,
men don't learn that anywhere. No, they it's so hard,
Like if I never lived as a monk, I wouldn't
have any sense.
Speaker 7 (26:46):
Well, it's your biggest lesson were living with money.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
I mean, a big part of it is sets control,
like don't you don't you eat what you're giving? You
celibate while you're there, there's complete focus in determination on
the path. And so there was so many any amazing
mental mastery tools that I gained in terms of discipline
an organization that I don't know where else I would
(27:09):
have learned them.
Speaker 7 (27:10):
Can you excel as a man without self control? Do
you think?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I don't think so.
Speaker 7 (27:13):
It's an impossibility, isn't it saying?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I just feel bad because I can't think of.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
It's the opposite that actually we're told men are being
told that be with as many women as you can.
We have zero sexual discipline, and you know, you can
kind of eat whatever, and there's always a zembic, so
don't worry about it or this we're actually being told
to reduce our our self control and replace it with hedonism.
Follow your impulses, and you only live once. Just do it.
(27:40):
That kind of mentality when it comes to drinking, when
it comes to food, when it comes to money, to spend, spend,
spend all these things. Unfortunately, we're pushing men into a
slow and steady depression because we're reducing the importance of
self control and replacing it with self indulgence. And that
is a slow suicide for a man. He will only
start to respect himself when he can control himself. And
they're only when you can control himself you can then excel.
(28:03):
And if you pick a man who can't control himself,
you'll spend the rest of your life trying to control him,
and it will bring out the worst side of you.
You'll become a mother to a child you'd never want
it to adopt.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Wow, that might drop. They're so powerful. It's as I'm
listening to you, I'm just sitting here thinking how much
there is a need in helping men realize the mental mastery, sense, control,
discipline are what's going to find the right person. But
I think the problem is men also believe that if
(28:36):
they're the life of the party. If they're the big spender,
if they're the big guy at the part. That's what's
going to attract the right person.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
You attract a chaotic person. There are women, lots of
women that were like that. There are lots and lots
of women that were like that. You're a big spender,
you're spending on bottles, you're going drinking all night, and
you're the life and soul of the party. But it
will attract women who want a fast life time and
probably don't want to invest in you. They're probably not
going to be there when you're suffer and you're on
a downward spiral. My reason I'm so strict on men
(29:04):
when it comes to self discipline and sexual discipline in particular,
is we live in a time where men don't really
get a say in when a baby is born. It's
not really up to them if that child stays. And
all women have the right way. I don't know what
it's like in America, but usually we get to control
if we want to keep the baby or don't want
to keep the baby, and as a result, we get
some autonomy. If it's the wrong man perfect we don't
have to suffer the consequences. But with men, if you
(29:25):
get the wrong person and you don't have a good
relationship and then you bring children into that mix, you
create a generation of broken children, and you are more
responsible for that. Yeah, because you have to be more
careful than women do. Because we still have autonomy. We
can get rid of a child if we need to.
You can't really have that much say in it, So
you have to be so disciplined with who you are
laying down with and if you're I know men who
have ruined their families just because they couldn't control themselves sexually,
(29:48):
or just because they couldn't have that right conversation with
their wife and say, look, I'm missing the intimacy. Maybe
we should just part Instead, they just light a flame
into their own home and then suffer the consequences. So
sexual discipline is a really really important one for men,
followed by financial discipline.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I've heard you say before that if someone cheats on you,
it's partly your fault. I do say that, and I
wanted to hear your.
Speaker 6 (30:10):
Yeah, I know that sounds terrible, and I say this
particularly with you know men especially, I'm like, it's always
were in fault. And the reason I say that's most
cheaters come with smoking guns on the first day. There's
always some signal that their behavior was not transparent. And
whenever you catch them cheating, usually so they say, I
always knew because from day one they were like this.
(30:31):
And I always say, people usually don't lie. They might
say lies, but they show you their red flags pretty
much from day one. And it might have been that
they were in a relationship when you met them, or
it might have been that you caught them in a
few lives when you first got with them, you would
have caught some signs that this person is capable of
deeper lies. And when I'm not saying you should always
look for the bad. But when we keep ignoring poor behavior,
(30:53):
what ends up happening is we are becoming distant from
the truth. We are going into denial. I actually have
a problem. Even if your partner is cheating, no problem.
You have to have radical, radical relationship with the truth.
And there are some women out there that are mistresses.
They're so happy in that role because they know the truth.
They know that he goes there, spends time with his wife.
I'll see hi when I see him. Truth is really important,
(31:14):
So the more you align yourself with truth, the more
you won't actually get blindsided. But when you start missing
red flags again and again, you haven't been intimate in months,
somebody is not coming home one time, nothing's adding up,
and you keep making excuses. Unfortunately, we create the environment
for these types of people to flourish. It's almost better
that you protect your own home and protect your own sanity.
(31:35):
Doesn't mean you become accusatory, but you know that your
treatment is not what you appreciate. And if they continue
like that, they don't have to cheat. The behavior is
enough for you to start setting a boundary and the
behaviors you don't need because some cheaters will say, well,
you can't prove anything. Cheaters will always want you to
catch them red handed. You as the person, should say,
I don't need red handed evidence. I can see your
behaviors not treating me rightly. Stop them there before they
(31:58):
get to the point where they're disrespecting you more.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
That's where the gas lighting comes in.
Speaker 6 (32:01):
Yeah, that's where the gaslighting. Yes, people get gas They
do get gaslighted really heavily. And this is even as
a psychologist, and you know when I'm as a therapist
and This is where I have to be a lot
more empathetic because I've had clients there that were like,
she keeps accusing me, and they're so like convincing that
I'm like, you need to stop accusing him. I don't,
and then she'll taste me. Afterwards I found out he
was having an affair the whole time. So the gas
(32:23):
lighting is very, very real. But the feeling they give
you is always true. So they'll lie to you. What
their words, their lips will be learned. But your feeling,
that gut instinct that something's not right or they're lying
to you, try and pay attention to that. And even
if you never get evidence that feeling is partly your
partner's responsibility to help soothe.
Speaker 7 (32:41):
Those anxieties, not make them worse.
Speaker 6 (32:42):
So if you have that feeling and they're just like,
maybe like whatever you need, like to make you feel better,
I have no problem. I've got nothing to hide. But
if they get less and less transparent, try and pay
attention to that.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
What I'm hearing from you is if you pay attention
to the signs that you're seeing, you don't let yourself
be in a position where you're taking advantage.
Speaker 6 (33:01):
That's what I'm saying. I'm saying, No, your partner better
than they know themselves. At the moment they start changing,
you spot it quicker than they can so and I'm
sure you have this with Radi where you probably know
her so so well that it would be difficult for
her to have a double life without you. You know
her behaviors or where she moves, how she talks, how
she kisses you, everything you pay close attention. We pay
so much attention to your partner, it's quite difficult for
(33:22):
them to live a whole double life without you catching on.
So try and stay at tuned as much as you can.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, every relationship has a rhythm as a pattern, and
when the pattern's off, you check in. I think one
of the things I see in relationship struggling is, especially
as they get longer term, is we don't recommit, so
life changes. Right, Me and Radi had a dating life.
When we got married. We had to recommit to a
different way of living. When we got married, when we
lived in New York, we had to recommit to a
(33:48):
different way of living. We moved to la different way
of living. It's almost like I've dated so many different
people in Radi as in, she's evolved, she's changed and
saying back at me, probably to some degree, but I
think we don't like it when our partner changes. Psychotherapist
(34:21):
Lorie Gottlieb challenges the fantasy of a blind love. If
you can't talk about marriage, money, and the future before
the proposal, you're not ready. More than fifty three percent
of couples split because of too much conflict and arguing,
while more than seventy percent break up because of a
lack of commitment. It's impossible to form true commitment and
(34:44):
conflict resolution without open and honest communication. The takeaway it's
easier not to be honest when the topic is uncomfortable,
but vulnerability requires honesty and ultimately is the most loving
thing you can offer your partner. Our community had a
lot of questions around was what's the right amount of
(35:07):
pressure for someone to get married or proposed to you,
because I think people get to this point where they
feel like we've invested someone's time, we're together, we're here,
but this person is just not proposing, they're not getting
they don't you know, they don't want to get married,
whatever it may be. And there it gets to this
point of this ultimatum of like and now there's even
(35:28):
a TV show called The Ultimatum, which is all about
people dealing with that period in their life. So what
does someone do in that scenario where they feel there's
good commitment, we're getting somewhere, but the other person isn't
showing this excitement, enthusiasm, or even taking action on taking
this relationship to the next level.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
This is like that birthday party thing where you feel
like you know the other person should just know, but
we're not communicating about it. The fact that people don't
talk about whether they want to get married before a
proposal happens is insane to me. It just makes it
makes no sense that it shouldn't be a total surprise.
You should know that you are both on the same page,
(36:08):
and you should know that the other person is definitely
going to say yes, that you've talked about this. So
many people come to me for premarital therapy where they
can talk about because they know they want to get
married and maybe they want to they're not even having
any problems. They just want to talk about their families
and how they're going to blend their families and the
in laws and the siblings and you know this person
(36:29):
and this personality, or they want to talk about money,
or they want to talk about whether they want to
have kids and how many and how that might work,
or they want to talk about balancing their careers.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
They want to talk.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
About sex and all the different things that might be
hard to talk about before you get married that are
so important and they might not have the answers right now,
but they're learning how to talk about these challenging topics.
And people say, oh, you're in therapy and you're not
even married yet. Something must be terribly wrong. It's like, no,
something's terribly right. And so the fact fact that people
(37:01):
are saying, like, I really want this person to propose,
but I don't understand why they're not and they don't
feel like they can ask the person means you are
not ready to marry that person if you don't feel
like you can bring this up and say, where are
we We've been together for this.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Amount of time. I'm feeling this.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
I'm wondering where you are with this and the person
you'll get so much information from.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
I do want to marry you.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
I don't feel ready yet because of this, but I
think I will feel ready in six months right, and
then you have a choice do you want to wait
for that.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Or do you not want to wait for that?
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Or nev right?
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Or they might say, actually, I don't know how I
feel about getting married. I don't know if I'm going
to come around to that. You have a choice about
what you want to do with that. I you know, Oh,
I didn't realize that. I thought I did want to
get married, but now I'm not so sure. Well, that's
really important to know why what's happening between us, so
that conversation is so important. Or do you just want
(37:57):
to sit there scheming with your friends about how you
can drop hints or how you can like analyze the
behavior because the person did this, and what does that mean?
That doesn't sound like the kind of marriage you want
to be in. Don't you want to be in the
kind of marriage where you can say to the person, Hey,
this is what I'm desiring, this is what I'm wanting.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
Where are you with this?
Speaker 7 (38:16):
If?
Speaker 4 (38:17):
That's such a basic conversation.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
But that's so much healthier than an ultimatum, too, because
I think we also get again. It goes back to
what we were talking about earlier. You haven't given that
regular check in right, you haven't touched base. You don't
really know what that person's belief system is around marriage
or whatever else it may be, and all of a
sudden it's built up for you as this big thing,
and now you're like, Okay, we'll either you marry me
or we're over. And then that's not comfortable for that
(38:41):
person either, because now they feel they're forced into a choice,
as opposed to a sense of how do you feel
about this and what are your thoughts about this? Again,
it comes back to we're so scared of appearing to
be naggy. Yeah, we're so scared of appearing to be
high maintenance. We're so scared of appearing to be the
one who's needy or desperate or whatever. Maybe, but we
are feeling all of those things. I've had so many
(39:03):
friends who are given the advice that if your relationship's
not working out, have a baby and it will save it.
Terrible It's never made sense to me, because if your
relationship's not working, now you have another relationship to take
care of, who is a new child, a new human
being in the in the world, And so how are
(39:23):
you You're going to give less attention to each other?
You've already been given no attention. Now you have less
attention to share with each other and more attention on
this another being. I'm shocked that that advice still gets
passed around and people still see it as a viable
solution to a bad relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, they think of it as like sunk costs, Like
we've been married this long, so we can't we can't
start over, We can't. You know, what do we do
to save this? Let's have a baby because it's a distraction.
They think like, this will be great, it's exciting, it'll
bring some vitality and energy and a liveness into the relationship,
when if you don't already have that aliveness and that
vitality between the two of you, So the baby is
(40:01):
not going.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
To provide that for you.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You're going to get a lot of outside attention like, oh,
that's so great, look at the baby. But in reality,
you guys are going to have to be more of
a team than you've ever been and problem solved more
than you've ever had to, and figure out how to
create connection under much more challenging circumstances. So it's the
most counterintuitive advice. And I always tell people if you
(40:24):
are not solid. Do not bring another person into this family.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yeah, it's almost like you already don't have problem solving skills,
you don't have collaboration skills, and now you're having to
make choices on behalf of an entirely new human being
where the stakes are so high and everything feels like
it's personal of whether things are going well for the
child or not.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Well, what happened? Does the Pain Olympics start? And what
I mean is that you know.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
I had the baby all day. I have it harder.
You didn't do this.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
No, I had it harder because I've been at work
all day and now I have to take over this
and you didn't have to work all day.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
Whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
They vie for who who has the most pain, and
then they compete for it, and that becomes their relationship.
You know, you owe me because I won the Pain
Olympics today. No, you owe me because yesterday I won
the Pain Olympics and I never got my reward, and
that becomes their whole relationship.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah. One of the questions I asked people when they
say to me, like should we have kids now or
is it the right time to have children? I often
say that I think we're asking the wrong question, Like
the question should be do I know how my life
is going to change? And am I ready for that?
And am I aware of that? And are we aware
of how our life is going to change? To the
point you're making of well, who is going to take
(41:38):
the responsibility? And am I going to feel like you're
not helping out? And what does that look like? Again,
having a conversation about it seems like the practical thing
to do. Another relationship that seems to add more complexity
since the beginning of time is in laws. You mentioned
it earlier that you have clients that come and see
you for that, the amount of friends of going to recently,
you have this challenge where they feel that the laws
(42:00):
are too involved, their in laws are not involved, when
their in laws are too involved, they're too controlling of
either or one of the partners, or they have expectations,
they have certain demands on time and holidays and where
they're spent and all of these kinds of things. What
I've found to be the core pain, again going back
(42:21):
to our earlier conversation, is people feel their partners' parents
are to involved, too demanding, too hands on. But they
feel their partner can't stand up to their parents, and
their partner doesn't understand how it affects them. That's kind
of where I've seen the main pressure that people are carrying.
(42:44):
How does someone deal with the fact that they feel
their partner doesn't defend them or stand up for them
in front of their partner's parents, and therefore they feel
their partner doesn't understand what they're going through.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
I have gotten thousands of letters to my column and
to my podcast about in life, and what I always
say is in law issues are couples issues. So people
think it's about the mother in law the father in law.
It's about the two of you. And if your partner,
whose parent that is, cannot talk to their parent on
your behalf, that's a couple's issue.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
So the person will say, oh, it's really not that bad.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
But if your partner is saying, I am really struggling
with this and it's not your you know, it's not
their parent. You need to talk to your own parent
about this. You need to have your partners back, and
if you don't, your partner is going to feel that
you are treating them the same way that their parent is.
You might not be doing the same thing, but the
(43:42):
fact that they don't have your support is going to
pull you apart in this marriage because your partner, it's
not about taking sides, it's about prioritizing this couple's relationship
and saying, listen, when you do this, it makes my
wife feel like she's not a good parent or she's
not a good wife. And you might have these values, mom,
(44:02):
and I understand that, but I don't want you saying
those kinds of things. You can have, whatever thoughts you have,
please don't say them to me or to my wife,
because I'm very happy with our relationship. And what you're
really standing up for is the relationship. It's not just
standing up for your partner, is standing up for we
understanding each other. We can talk about these things with
each other, and we do not want that kind of interference.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
What do you do when your partner doesn't have the
guts to do that, When they don't have the authority
or the relationship with their own parents, which is constantly
being they've been babied, they've been you know, the mommy's
boy or whatever it may be, and they don't really
have the courage to stand up to their parents and
say what you just said, which isn't rude, it's not mean,
(44:48):
but in their head they're like, how could I ever
defy my parents? Like what does that look like? Or
or they're guilt tripped like by their parents, where it's
like they're like, I can never do that to my mom,
like she's loved me since day one. You just turned
up in my life two years ago. What do you
do when your partner is feeling that way?
Speaker 7 (45:04):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Think you help your partner to understand that this is
a very loving thing for the relationship with the parent too.
So you're not telling the parent I don't want you
in our lives. You're saying I want you in our lives.
We both want you in our lives, but we want
you in our lives in a way that makes us
feel like we're enjoying our time with you. And if
(45:26):
it becomes this thing where we're not enjoying our time
with you and it becomes problematic, we're going to be
spending less time with you, and mom, I don't want that,
and my wife doesn't want that. We both want to
spend time with you. We just want it to be enjoyable.
So we're asking that you not talk about this whatever
the issue is, or you not do this, or you
not tell my wife to do this, or you're not criticized,
(45:48):
because that makes it not enjoyable, and then we're going
to see you less. And we love you so much
that we feel comfortable saying this to you. If we
didn't love you and we didn't care how much we
saw you, we wouldn't be bringing this up. I'm bringing
this up because I love you and I want to
be able to see you. And I think when people
when you set boundaries in a loving way, when you
say I want to see more of you, I want
(46:09):
to be able to continue to see you. I'm not
pushing you away. I'm pulling you close. But the way
to pull you close is to make sure that we
have a good time together.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah. Yeah, And I find that sometimes it can be
different in every relationship, but often this at least and
the people I know, the pressure often falls on the
man who feels like he's in between his mom and
his wife that in that kind of a setup, or
at least those are the ones that I'm aware of.
And I'm sure it has takes all sorts of forms,
(46:38):
but it's often quite a heavy pressure that I know
a lot of men feel, and they're like, I don't
want to let my mom down and I don't want
to let my wife down. And now I'm stuck in
between these two things, and it's almost like who do
I choose? And I feel like I have to choose
a side, right.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
But you're not choosing, You're actually choosing to bring everyone together.
You're saying, I want us all to be able to
be together, and so what I'm doing is I'm making
sure that we can spend more time together.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Yeah, that's great advice, and I really hope that reframe
is kind of you know, permeates one of the things
I imagine you see a lot in therapy as one
partner has forced the other partner to come there. Maybe
in couples therapy, it's hard for two people to feel
equally as excited. Maybe if they're premarrit or that may
be more equal, but when it's reactive, it's definitely one
saying we need to go to therapy, and someone may
(47:26):
feel forced. One thing I've found that a lot of
people say to me, Jaed, I just can't get my
partner to open up, Like whether it's in therapy whether
it's with me, I'm asking them, I'm talking to them.
I'm just like, I just want to know what you
feel like, even with the question you said earlier of like, hey,
I have a dream to get married. What's your take
on it? And they'll be like I don't know, or
they'll they'll go quiet when it's like, hey, we need
(47:48):
to go talk to your parents about this because they're
getting really involved and they just go quiet. They don't
know what to say, and they constantly feel that these
their partner doesn't have the capacity to open up and
find this, especially with young couples where they're just like,
my partner doesn't have an emotional vocabulary, like they don't
have the ability. How have you encouraged people in those
scenarios to be able to open up or help their
(48:10):
partners open up or create a safe space when a
lot of people don't have that skill and that ability
to actually even know what they're feeling and thinking.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Yeah, you have to create the space for that person
to feel comfortable opening up. So often people who can't
open up or have a hard time with it, they
were not given the space before. So when they opened up,
someone would say, oh, no, you don't feel.
Speaker 4 (48:34):
That way, right.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
So when they were growing up, they'd say, you know,
I'm upset about this, or I'm sad about this, and
the parent would say, no, don't be sad, let's go
get ice cream. Right, So there was no space for
the sadness. Or I'm really angry about this. Oh, you're overreacting.
You're so sensitive. So they don't tell someone that they're
angry about something, or I'm really worried about this. Oh,
(48:57):
don't worry, It'll all work out, or what do you
mean you're worried about that? Why are you always so
worried about everything? So they never felt like they had
a space for their feelings to be received and held.
We talk about in therapy the concept of feeling felt.
What does it mean to feel felt? And I love
that expression because I think that when you want someone
to open up, they want to feel felt.
Speaker 4 (49:18):
They want to know that you're going to receive whatever.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
They have to offer in a compassionate way and in
a way that feels connected. So when you tell someone
tell me what you're feeling, open up, that feels like
so much pressure as opposed to just you know, being
with them. So maybe you start with something like, hey,
I'm feeling really this about this.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
You know, what was that like for you?
Speaker 3 (49:45):
And they might say it was fine because they don't
know did you have a good time?
Speaker 1 (49:49):
You know?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Did it make you sad when this happened? It made
me sad, but maybe you didn't feel that way, you know,
just just helping them.
Speaker 4 (49:57):
To have the vocabulary.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
There's this thing called a feelings wheel, and a lot
of people only learned like with the colors, the primary colors, right,
so red, yellow, blue, right, And then if you mix
red and yellow you get orange, and there's more nuance.
And if you put more yellow, it becomes more yellowy orange, right,
And so people only know like happy, sad, mad, but
they don't know like I felt frustrated, I felt scared,
(50:22):
I felt vulnerable, I felt anxious. But where did you
feel the anxiety? Well, I felt it in my belly,
I felt it in my chest right. So there's so
much nuance. And for people who don't open up, they
often only have those three primary emotions, and then they
don't really know how to describe what they're feeling. So
you can mirror that for them and model that when
you talk about your feelings, like I was really afraid
(50:46):
of that, and I was really angry, but actually, underneath
the anger with my friend, I was feeling hurt. And
I realized I was feeling really hurt by her behavior,
and it seemed like I was angry, but I'm feeling
really neglected. And so, you know, did you ever feel
that way? Have you ever felt you know, we whatever
it is, but it just like it just becomes part
of the air. It's not like, sit down, face me
(51:08):
and tell me how you're feeling.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Open up to me.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
That feels like so much pressure, but it just like
it's in the air. And they've never lived in that
environment before, you have to remember, So it's just this
is a new planet that they've landed on, and here's
it's like a new let's say it's a new city.
And in this city, we speak a different language and
we speak in the language of emotion. And they're going
to start to pick up the language bit by bit,
but they're not going to be fluent right out the
(51:32):
cause they don't say, speak French to me. It's like, oh,
here's this new language. You'll pick up a few words
here and there.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
That's so good. That's such a great visual and analogy
like if I turn up in a different city or
a different country and someone just expected me to know
how to speak that language, I would feel so much pressure.
And actually we've all experienced that. We're like, I don't
even want to try and say a sentence yea, I
feel I'm going to sound so stupid. It's that comfortability,
and that could take a while. Love isn't supposed to
(51:59):
be easy, and it doesn't survive on perfection. It survives
on truth. It deepens when you stop performing and start practicing.
Strong relationships aren't found, they're built. So whether you're ealing
from betrayal, navigating change, or building something new, always start
with honesty and it's okay if yours looks different each
(52:22):
and everyone does. All that matters is that it's real.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my
conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up on how
to stay with your partner when they're changing and the
four check ins you should be doing in your relationship.
We also talk about how to deal with relationships when
(52:44):
they're under stress. If you're going through something right now
with your partner or someone you're seeing. This is the
episode for you.
Speaker 5 (52:52):
Now wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new
technology and we've just taken it in Hookline and Sinker.
Have to be mindful for our kids. They'll just be
thumbing through this stuff. You know, their mind's never sleeping.
On this show, I've been so lucky to sit down
with some of the greatest experts on the planet, from
when it comes to marriage to romance, chemistry, compatibility, some
of the therapists that are working with hundreds of clients worldwide,
and people in the public eye who've opened up about
their own experience. You're going to get to hear from
(00:22):
all of them in just a moment, so make sure
you stick around the number one health and wellness podcast,
Jay Set Jay Shetty Set. When it comes to building
a lasting marriage, most people think it starts with romance
or chemistry, but it's actually something else. The real foundation
(00:44):
to a lasting marriage is emotional resilience. Think about this.
Nearly half of all marriages in the US still end
in divorce. The number one reason isn't a lack of love.
It's a breakdown in trust and communication. That's where everything
starts to fall apart. In this episode, we're going straight
(01:07):
to the heart of it, why people cheat and why
they stay, Why forever isn't a promise, it's a practice,
and how redefining love might be the key to saving it.
What you'll hear isn't fluff or wish well thinking, just
hard earned truths and relationships saving lessons. Jada Pinkett Smith
(01:29):
breaks down how marriage isn't a fixed identity, it's a
spiritual evolution. She opens up about separation, reconciliation, and the
patterns from childhood that shape adult love. The real lesson
is this, you don't just arrive in marriage. It's not
a finish line. You keep choosing each other over and
(01:51):
over as you both grow and change, even when life
gets messy, especially with big life changes. One study found
that's sixty seven percent of couples report being less satisfied
in their marriage after having children unless they work intentionally
to reconnect. As she describes here, you don't need a
(02:12):
perfect partner, You need a partner willing to grow with you.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
We really look at our marriage as being the cornerstone
of family. We're both kind of coming up with different
definitions of what marriage means for us. We're still figuring
all of that out. Yeah, but the beautiful part is
(02:37):
that there's been some really deep healing going on. Yeah,
I mean, you know that. I mean, at the end
of the day, that's what it's about. Marriage is so
much about growth, like really learning how to grow emotionally
like emotional maturity, spiritual maturity, and there's this spiritual bond there.
(03:02):
I mean, we've tried our best to get away from
each other. I mean, I mean our best, and we
just don't want to. So we are defining it the
way that works for us, and I think getting comfortable
(03:23):
with not being concerned about what anybody else thinks about it.
We have this life partnership and every day we're trying
to figure out what that means.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You've both talked about how you feel like you're a
mirror for each other. Yeah, and when I've spoken to
Will as well, it's like he feels like you're the
person who knows him to his care.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Absolutely, he knows you to.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Your care, like you know everything. Yeah, that potentially there
is to know about each other, and you're obviously still learning.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
What's really interesting about that is some people say, well,
why not just get divorced.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, everybody's always like, why don't you just get divorced?
And it's like, hmm, that's like quitting. I don't think
there's any person that could embrace the best and the
worst of me and be able be willing to hold
space in the way that will hold space for me
(04:22):
and the way that I hold space for him. And
I know that most people probably go into their relationship
as like you were here to please me, And yeah,
our relationship isn't quite that, you know. It's like it's
more about there's no greater mirror I could have than
(04:44):
will he doesn't. I can't get around myself just like
he can't get around himself with me. And I think
that that's just been what this has been all about,
Like it's been a deep clear like really having to
look at yourself in ways in that mirror that sure,
(05:07):
we talk about this all the time. Would it be
easier to go and find somebody else and have a
more pleasing, more comfortable relationship, maybe, But would that get
me to the person that I really want to be?
I don't think so. And I'm not saying that everybody's
relationship is supposed to be that. I'm not here to
say that. I'm just saying that that's what my relationship is.
(05:30):
That's something I desire to get to a deeper part,
a more spiritually sound, emotionally sound, and really understand love unconditionally.
And the thing that I've learned about unconditional love, you
(05:52):
can't really understand what unconditional love and ideal circumstances.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
To really get to.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
What it is to love yourself and someone else completely
with all that's divine, all that's human, all that's perfect,
and all that is deeply flawed, and have full acceptance
for it. All I tell you this is you know,
(06:26):
marriage is not for the faint at heart. It's just not.
And it is definitely I believe, I believe. You know,
different people get married for different reasons, so I'm not
trying to say why anybody else should be married, but
for me, the holy path of getting to a divine
aspect of myself in partnership with Will and it seems
(06:49):
like Will wants the same for himself. And it's taken us,
you know, I mean, we got together it what I
was twenty three, okay, twenty three when I first decided
to commit myself to Willard Carroll Smith, Lord Jesus.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
So young, so young.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
We were babies, babies trying to figure this out. And
you know what's interesting about young relationships. You create these
young patterns that get so like these really young immature
patterns in yourself and how you relate to your partner,
and then you create these dynamics between one another that
(07:36):
it takes a while to like really be willing to
look at that stuff and dissolve it and let it
go immature and grow. It takes some real like self inventory, patience, courage, right,
because you're breaking down everything, all your romantic ideas, everything
(08:01):
you thought you know, relationship or marriage, all your romantic
fantasies you know.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
Just.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You know, blow up in flames. But it's really been freeing.
It's really been freeing to see what's more true. Right.
I'm not saying that I know the truth yet. I
just feel like I'm seeing more of what's true, you know,
as regards to what love and partnership is about. Because
(08:36):
I was definitely one of those people that's like, you're
here to make me happy, and when you don't do it,
that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And that's a normal setup. That's how we believe relationships are.
And you know, I've talked about it before and I
put it forward in my book, this idea that we
think pleasure is the ultimate gift of a relationship, but
really purification is. And that's a really tough idea for anyone,
(09:03):
including me. I haven't perfected that idea for me to
wrap my head around, and I can honestly say that
I love Radi and you know you've seen us both
together and everything. But the greatest gift Radi gives me
is a mirror and a purification of RADI can call
out my ego better than anyone or anything, and I
(09:24):
know it's coming from a good place. Radi can show
me my flaws in the nicest, most supportive way possible
and can receive it back from me, And then I
feel like because of her, I'm trying to be better,
getting better, not for her, for myself. It's almost like
(09:44):
the person that you live with knows you so deeply,
or the person that you've seen has seen you in
all circumstances, in all situations, knows you the deepest. I
would say, RADI knows whether I woke up and meditated
in the morning. Yeah, Like RADI knows whether I got
angry or frustrated at night after a like Rodley knows that.
And if I use that to my advantage of am
(10:05):
I becoming, am I growing. But it's such a hard
concept for people to understand because it's so counterintuitive to
the pleasure seeking mind that we've been conditioned to chase.
And again, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a pleasure
in relationship. That's not the point I'm making. I'm just
saying that there's more to it, There's another level.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
There's definitely more to it. And I think we've talked
about this before, you and I. As far as people
believing that romantic love is the highest form. Now, I
believe that romantic love is an aspect right of a
higher form. But I don't believe that romantic self romantic
(10:49):
love itself is the highest form.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I believe within the highest form you can have romantic love,
but that romantic love is not of the highest right.
And that's all I've been examining and exploring with Will
and really trying to understand the power of unconditional love, friendship,
(11:16):
Like there's something about friendship, familial love that is beautiful.
But when two people can have an agreement around divine love,
like love of a source greater than yourself that you
(11:40):
want to be connected to, and then you decide that
your relationship is going to be connected to that same source,
oh boy, now we're onto something. Now we're onto something.
But to think that romantic love can hold all of
(12:03):
the difficulties and challenges alone. And I think that's why
so many of us get into these power struggles. And
while there's so many divorces and why they're you know,
just all of this strife and relationships, you brought up
something that was really important And it's the idea of
(12:24):
Roddy when she can kind of pull your coattails with love.
And I think that's it takes a lot of work
to figure that out, like to not be offended when
someone shows up imperfectly, and that those are those kind
of pieces within relationship, Like we feel like people are
(12:46):
supposed to come ready made. You walk down the aisland
and it's like he knows how to love me, you know,
I know how to love him, you know, and not
making room for that space of growth that is inevitable.
People are going to mess up. People are gonna do
stupid stuff, People are gonna say stupid stuff. Now when
(13:07):
it comes to abuse and all of that, that's a
different story, right, But people who are willing to learn
how to love each other, because I really do think
that's what committed relationships about marriage or not. I'm committed
to learning how to love myself, learning how to love
(13:28):
you right, and then learning how to cultivate this relationship
that we have with that essence, with those components. Then
that's a beautiful thing. That's what I believe the holy
path of relating is all about. And not everybody wants that,
(13:52):
you know, some people really just want the romantic version
of it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
And that's okay too, Absolutely, that's okay.
Speaker 6 (13:59):
Too, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
But for me definitely on that path of looking for
something deeper within myself mostly.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
How did you let go of that desire for romantic
love but then hold onto the friendship? Because I feel
like that's a journey that is so hard, whether someone
stays married or gets divorced or like you both are
you described yourself as best friends. How did you hold
on too friendship being able to let go of the
(14:34):
mirage that you had earlier, or even not even the mirage,
the reality of what you had earlier, as you talk
about in the book, you know, the chemistry, the spark.
I think so many of us are trying to hold
onto that. But you've let go of that, And then
you're saying, but we've held on to the friendship, the mirror,
the work, the growth. That sounds like the hard way
through it.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
I think it's how people show up, and people don't
always show up perfect clearly. But one thing about Will
and I, we're just not willing to give up. It's
like I'm lucky that we just want to have each
other in one another's life. Right, you have moments of disharmony,
(15:18):
but if you know that you're not willing to not
have that person in your life, you know you got
to put forth the effort and you got to put
forth the work to transform whatever's not working. So we
always make the decision to take that one step closer
(15:41):
to diving more deeply to learning how to love. And
most of the time it has more to do with
self inventory, having to go in the corner and look
at oneself and come back and go, I was tripping,
(16:04):
whether it's I'm sorry or I had a misunderstanding. Can
we look at this now together, because now I've looked
at it in my corner alone, and I've seen my
part and I want to talk to you first about
my part ABC and D right, and then inevitably usually
(16:27):
your partner go, well, you know I could have done
such and such and such, and so when you have
an agreement that's really unspoken of, like I want you
in my life and I want to have good times
with you and I love you. Then that's the energy
(16:48):
that nurtures and keeps one willing to just keep working
at it. So there's that deep love. And the great
thing is that Will's got a great sense of humor,
you know what I mean. He's got a really good
sense of humor. So he has a way of being
(17:10):
able to help me get out of my funk. But
I'm kind of like you talk about this a lot
with Roddy, where I kind of have to take my time,
Like I'm not always ready to talk right away. I
need to like sit, I need to be with myself,
I need to kind of like work through my thoughts
and all of that. Where Will is always ready to talk.
I like to go deep. He likes to get funny.
(17:31):
The great thing about him, he can go deep, and
there are times that I really like to play and
have fun. So we're like these energetic fields. You know,
I'm Earth and he's sky. You know, we are your
typical yin and yang, you know that. You know, there's
(17:52):
this great chemistry there between us that just works. And
but when it doesn't work. Oh Man, oh man, oh man,
you know what I mean, those moments, but it's just like, ah,
but I think that's just inevitable in every relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
You know, But it just doesn't look traditional. I think
that's the point. That's that's the part where it's like,
it just doesn't look traditional.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
It.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yes, there's the trust, there's commitments. Yeah, there's understanding, and
at the same time it doesn't look it.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Doesn't look traditional. I don't know. I'm being honest with you.
There are aspects of traditional relating that absolutely work. But
I think in this day and age, I don't know
too many marriages that are traditional.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
I really don't.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Everybody is trying to figure it out, right, and I
think everybody's so scared to talk about all of the
different ways that they're that they're trying to figure it out.
I know so many people who are like married but
not living together, married but have decided to have other partners.
(19:09):
I know so many people and have for a long
time that are trying marriage in so many different forms.
And my whole thing is figure it out for you.
Marriage is not a cookie cut out like formula. Besides,
(19:32):
I do think that there's some staples you know, love,
but even that, you can take that out for a second.
There's some people who are married strictly for business purposes.
I've seen that too. As long as there's agreement between
two people and how they decide they want to be together,
(19:52):
stay out of it. It has nothing to do. I
tell people all the time, don't look at my marriage
as being contagious. Whatever I'm doing, does it mean you
got to be doing that. You got to be doing
the thing that works for you. And I feel like
every partnership, two people have the right to figure that
(20:13):
out for them.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
And it's so different in norms, in different cultures and
different backgrounds. I mean, like for me and Radi, we
spend a lot of time apart because she likes to
be back with a family in London and I travel
for work. And so we discovered and agreed very early
on in our relationship that when I work, she would
often visit her family back in London and she loves it,
(20:35):
and she wants to be with her mom and dad
and her niece and nephew and her sister and brother
in law and everyone. And I love my purpose and
I want to be traveling. I want to be working
I want to be moving, and I remember so many
times in our relationship people be like, is everything okay? Yeah,
And then we go back to London and people be like,
why's your wife not with your People like why is
Jay not with you? And everyone starts thinking that there
(20:57):
may be something going on, and it's actually, well, no,
this was our agree this is something we've sat and
talked about and figured things out, and actually we love
distance because we get excited to see each other again.
It's refreshing. It works for us, and again it may
not work for anyone else. Someone may say I need
my partner by my set every day fair enough, and
someone may say I want to travel more than you
(21:17):
do or less. But we just found that having honest
conversations between us and knowing why we were making certain
decisions even though they were abnormal to our community, the
community that we grew up in, where the way we
live is very abnormal, even though it's just about time apart.
The point was we had an agreement that worked for us,
(21:39):
and I think getting to know you both, I can
honestly say that I feel like you guys are both
always honest and communicative with each other on what your
agreements are absolutely, and that's what we have been discussing
today as well, that you know, there's there's always been that,
that openness to do that.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Oh yeah, well I talk about it a lot in
the book. Absolutely, and I think that a lot of
people had a lot of misunderstanding as we talked about earlier.
I believe in regards to open relationship and being able
to be with whoever you want. Now, that's not what
was happening. And I think a lot of times that
people just didn't know that we had agreed to not
(22:18):
be together. As we were trying to figure out are
we going to be separated? Are we going to be divorced?
Then we would reconcile, and then we would break up again,
and there's all this back and forth between us that
we didn't share with the world a lot, you know.
And I think now people are just going to have
to be okay with our marriage is not traditional in
(22:44):
the sense of here we are married, but not you
know what I mean. And you know, as I'm on
my path and Will's figuring his thing out, we decide
it to hold space for each other.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Relationship Coach Sadia Khan shares a truth most people don't
even think about. More men are being cheated on than
we realize, but most of them stay silent. According to
a study by the CDC, men are more than fifty
percent less likely to seek counseling than women, which means
(23:41):
they're more likely to internalize this shame and carry it forward.
The lesson emotional reaction might feel good in the moment,
but it doesn't solve anything. What actually protects a relationship
is emotional regulation. Fireworks and passion fades, but stability, self control,
and discipline. That's what builds real trust and keeps a
(24:05):
relationship strong. It's not just about you and your partner.
Your relationship sets a blueprint for your kids, your family,
your future. Who you pick is your partner sets the
tone for the rest of your life. Cheating doesn't begin
in the bedroom. It begins in emotional distance. Spot the
(24:26):
signs early or spend time repairing it far too late.
What are the top three things that people you guide
and coach and follow you on social media come to
you for and say their number one issue is for men.
Speaker 6 (24:39):
They do suffer from a lot of infidelity. The women
are cheating on the men a lot more than I
ever expected.
Speaker 7 (24:45):
Really My number one client.
Speaker 6 (24:49):
Is a man who's just been cheated on by a woman.
And because there's not much talk about this on social media,
and there's not much talk about this in general, we're
almost programmed to think mensche Yeah, it is rare that
you'll find the idea of women chaging, and men don't
actually talk to each other when they've been cheated on.
They kind of keep it to themselves because they're almost embarrassed.
Speaker 7 (25:07):
Or a shamed.
Speaker 6 (25:07):
W As women, we can confide in each other a
bit more so, My number one client tends to be
the man that's been cheated on or the woman that
can't get the man to commit. That tends to be
the two feels I kind of have that seem to
attract in terms of clients. But men getting cheated on
or men not being masculine enough tends to be the
common theme of my clients that keep coming back In.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
What's the difference between the woman a man dates and
the woman a man marries.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
I would say the key difference is the element of
stability and responsibility, And what I mean by that is
being with a man who is super social, who's a
big drinker and has got all these friends in busy
or day every day and got this amazing life is
great for dates, you get to go on great vacations
with them, you get to go to red nice restaurants
and so on and so forth. But get when it
comes to getting married, if you don't look for a
(25:53):
man with a lot of self control, you will really suffer.
And what I mean by this is that he needs
to have self control in terms of his sexual disap
in he's self control in terms of what he puts
into his body, even the food he eats, everything, And
he needs self control when it comes to his money.
If in those areas he's got no self control. For dating,
no problem, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he can be sexually wild,
he can spend all his money, no problem. You can
(26:14):
enjoy a great life When you marry a man like that.
Every day's anxiety, every single day's anxiety, because his lack
of self control will lead to lack of self respect,
and as a result, he'll have such low self esteem
that you can't trust him to make decisions. But men
with lots of self control, you can trust that they
make great decisions. You can trust their judgment, and you
can finally start a family or start your goals, but
(26:34):
you can't do that with men who have got no
self control?
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Do you know what the amazing thing is that as
I was listening to you, I was thinking about, like,
men don't learn that anywhere. No, they it's so hard,
Like if I never lived as a monk, I wouldn't
have any sense.
Speaker 7 (26:46):
Well, it's your biggest lesson were living with money.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
I mean, a big part of it is sets control,
like don't you don't you eat what you're giving? You
celibate while you're there, there's complete focus in determination on
the path. And so there was so many any amazing
mental mastery tools that I gained in terms of discipline
an organization that I don't know where else I would
(27:09):
have learned them.
Speaker 7 (27:10):
Can you excel as a man without self control? Do
you think?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I don't think so.
Speaker 7 (27:13):
It's an impossibility, isn't it saying?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I just feel bad because I can't think of.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
It's the opposite that actually we're told men are being
told that be with as many women as you can.
We have zero sexual discipline, and you know, you can
kind of eat whatever, and there's always a zembic, so
don't worry about it or this we're actually being told
to reduce our our self control and replace it with hedonism.
Follow your impulses, and you only live once. Just do it.
(27:40):
That kind of mentality when it comes to drinking, when
it comes to food, when it comes to money, to spend, spend,
spend all these things. Unfortunately, we're pushing men into a
slow and steady depression because we're reducing the importance of
self control and replacing it with self indulgence. And that
is a slow suicide for a man. He will only
start to respect himself when he can control himself. And
they're only when you can control himself you can then excel.
(28:03):
And if you pick a man who can't control himself,
you'll spend the rest of your life trying to control him,
and it will bring out the worst side of you.
You'll become a mother to a child you'd never want
it to adopt.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Wow, that might drop. They're so powerful. It's as I'm
listening to you, I'm just sitting here thinking how much
there is a need in helping men realize the mental mastery, sense, control,
discipline are what's going to find the right person. But
I think the problem is men also believe that if
(28:36):
they're the life of the party. If they're the big spender,
if they're the big guy at the part. That's what's
going to attract the right person.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
You attract a chaotic person. There are women, lots of
women that were like that. There are lots and lots
of women that were like that. You're a big spender,
you're spending on bottles, you're going drinking all night, and
you're the life and soul of the party. But it
will attract women who want a fast life time and
probably don't want to invest in you. They're probably not
going to be there when you're suffer and you're on
a downward spiral. My reason I'm so strict on men
(29:04):
when it comes to self discipline and sexual discipline in particular,
is we live in a time where men don't really
get a say in when a baby is born. It's
not really up to them if that child stays. And
all women have the right way. I don't know what
it's like in America, but usually we get to control
if we want to keep the baby or don't want
to keep the baby, and as a result, we get
some autonomy. If it's the wrong man perfect we don't
have to suffer the consequences. But with men, if you
(29:25):
get the wrong person and you don't have a good
relationship and then you bring children into that mix, you
create a generation of broken children, and you are more
responsible for that. Yeah, because you have to be more
careful than women do. Because we still have autonomy. We
can get rid of a child if we need to.
You can't really have that much say in it, So
you have to be so disciplined with who you are
laying down with and if you're I know men who
have ruined their families just because they couldn't control themselves sexually,
(29:48):
or just because they couldn't have that right conversation with
their wife and say, look, I'm missing the intimacy. Maybe
we should just part Instead, they just light a flame
into their own home and then suffer the consequences. So
sexual discipline is a really really important one for men,
followed by financial discipline.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I've heard you say before that if someone cheats on you,
it's partly your fault. I do say that, and I
wanted to hear your.
Speaker 6 (30:10):
Yeah, I know that sounds terrible, and I say this
particularly with you know men especially, I'm like, it's always
were in fault. And the reason I say that's most
cheaters come with smoking guns on the first day. There's
always some signal that their behavior was not transparent. And
whenever you catch them cheating, usually so they say, I
always knew because from day one they were like this.
(30:31):
And I always say, people usually don't lie. They might
say lies, but they show you their red flags pretty
much from day one. And it might have been that
they were in a relationship when you met them, or
it might have been that you caught them in a
few lives when you first got with them, you would
have caught some signs that this person is capable of
deeper lies. And when I'm not saying you should always
look for the bad. But when we keep ignoring poor behavior,
(30:53):
what ends up happening is we are becoming distant from
the truth. We are going into denial. I actually have
a problem. Even if your partner is cheating, no problem.
You have to have radical, radical relationship with the truth.
And there are some women out there that are mistresses.
They're so happy in that role because they know the truth.
They know that he goes there, spends time with his wife.
I'll see hi when I see him. Truth is really important,
(31:14):
So the more you align yourself with truth, the more
you won't actually get blindsided. But when you start missing
red flags again and again, you haven't been intimate in months,
somebody is not coming home one time, nothing's adding up,
and you keep making excuses. Unfortunately, we create the environment
for these types of people to flourish. It's almost better
that you protect your own home and protect your own sanity.
(31:35):
Doesn't mean you become accusatory, but you know that your
treatment is not what you appreciate. And if they continue
like that, they don't have to cheat. The behavior is
enough for you to start setting a boundary and the
behaviors you don't need because some cheaters will say, well,
you can't prove anything. Cheaters will always want you to
catch them red handed. You as the person, should say,
I don't need red handed evidence. I can see your
behaviors not treating me rightly. Stop them there before they
(31:58):
get to the point where they're disrespecting you more.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
That's where the gas lighting comes in.
Speaker 6 (32:01):
Yeah, that's where the gaslighting. Yes, people get gas They
do get gaslighted really heavily. And this is even as
a psychologist, and you know when I'm as a therapist
and This is where I have to be a lot
more empathetic because I've had clients there that were like,
she keeps accusing me, and they're so like convincing that
I'm like, you need to stop accusing him. I don't,
and then she'll taste me. Afterwards I found out he
was having an affair the whole time. So the gas
(32:23):
lighting is very, very real. But the feeling they give
you is always true. So they'll lie to you. What
their words, their lips will be learned. But your feeling,
that gut instinct that something's not right or they're lying
to you, try and pay attention to that. And even
if you never get evidence that feeling is partly your
partner's responsibility to help soothe.
Speaker 7 (32:41):
Those anxieties, not make them worse.
Speaker 6 (32:42):
So if you have that feeling and they're just like,
maybe like whatever you need, like to make you feel better,
I have no problem. I've got nothing to hide. But
if they get less and less transparent, try and pay
attention to that.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
What I'm hearing from you is if you pay attention
to the signs that you're seeing, you don't let yourself
be in a position where you're taking advantage.
Speaker 6 (33:01):
That's what I'm saying. I'm saying, No, your partner better
than they know themselves. At the moment they start changing,
you spot it quicker than they can so and I'm
sure you have this with Radi where you probably know
her so so well that it would be difficult for
her to have a double life without you. You know
her behaviors or where she moves, how she talks, how
she kisses you, everything you pay close attention. We pay
so much attention to your partner, it's quite difficult for
(33:22):
them to live a whole double life without you catching on.
So try and stay at tuned as much as you can.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, every relationship has a rhythm as a pattern, and
when the pattern's off, you check in. I think one
of the things I see in relationship struggling is, especially
as they get longer term, is we don't recommit, so
life changes. Right, Me and Radi had a dating life.
When we got married. We had to recommit to a
different way of living. When we got married, when we
lived in New York, we had to recommit to a
(33:48):
different way of living. We moved to la different way
of living. It's almost like I've dated so many different
people in Radi as in, she's evolved, she's changed and
saying back at me, probably to some degree, but I
think we don't like it when our partner changes. Psychotherapist
(34:21):
Lorie Gottlieb challenges the fantasy of a blind love. If
you can't talk about marriage, money, and the future before
the proposal, you're not ready. More than fifty three percent
of couples split because of too much conflict and arguing,
while more than seventy percent break up because of a
lack of commitment. It's impossible to form true commitment and
(34:44):
conflict resolution without open and honest communication. The takeaway it's
easier not to be honest when the topic is uncomfortable,
but vulnerability requires honesty and ultimately is the most loving
thing you can offer your partner. Our community had a
lot of questions around was what's the right amount of
(35:07):
pressure for someone to get married or proposed to you,
because I think people get to this point where they
feel like we've invested someone's time, we're together, we're here,
but this person is just not proposing, they're not getting
they don't you know, they don't want to get married,
whatever it may be. And there it gets to this
point of this ultimatum of like and now there's even
(35:28):
a TV show called The Ultimatum, which is all about
people dealing with that period in their life. So what
does someone do in that scenario where they feel there's
good commitment, we're getting somewhere, but the other person isn't
showing this excitement, enthusiasm, or even taking action on taking
this relationship to the next level.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
This is like that birthday party thing where you feel
like you know the other person should just know, but
we're not communicating about it. The fact that people don't
talk about whether they want to get married before a
proposal happens is insane to me. It just makes it
makes no sense that it shouldn't be a total surprise.
You should know that you are both on the same page,
(36:08):
and you should know that the other person is definitely
going to say yes, that you've talked about this. So
many people come to me for premarital therapy where they
can talk about because they know they want to get
married and maybe they want to they're not even having
any problems. They just want to talk about their families
and how they're going to blend their families and the
in laws and the siblings and you know this person
(36:29):
and this personality, or they want to talk about money,
or they want to talk about whether they want to
have kids and how many and how that might work,
or they want to talk about balancing their careers.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
They want to talk.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
About sex and all the different things that might be
hard to talk about before you get married that are
so important and they might not have the answers right now,
but they're learning how to talk about these challenging topics.
And people say, oh, you're in therapy and you're not
even married yet. Something must be terribly wrong. It's like, no,
something's terribly right. And so the fact fact that people
(37:01):
are saying, like, I really want this person to propose,
but I don't understand why they're not and they don't
feel like they can ask the person means you are
not ready to marry that person if you don't feel
like you can bring this up and say, where are
we We've been together for this.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Amount of time. I'm feeling this.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
I'm wondering where you are with this and the person
you'll get so much information from.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
I do want to marry you.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
I don't feel ready yet because of this, but I
think I will feel ready in six months right, and
then you have a choice do you want to wait
for that.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Or do you not want to wait for that?
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Or nev right?
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Or they might say, actually, I don't know how I
feel about getting married. I don't know if I'm going
to come around to that. You have a choice about
what you want to do with that. I you know, Oh,
I didn't realize that. I thought I did want to
get married, but now I'm not so sure. Well, that's
really important to know why what's happening between us, so
that conversation is so important. Or do you just want
(37:57):
to sit there scheming with your friends about how you
can drop hints or how you can like analyze the
behavior because the person did this, and what does that mean?
That doesn't sound like the kind of marriage you want
to be in. Don't you want to be in the
kind of marriage where you can say to the person, Hey,
this is what I'm desiring, this is what I'm wanting.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
Where are you with this?
Speaker 7 (38:16):
If?
Speaker 4 (38:17):
That's such a basic conversation.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
But that's so much healthier than an ultimatum, too, because
I think we also get again. It goes back to
what we were talking about earlier. You haven't given that
regular check in right, you haven't touched base. You don't
really know what that person's belief system is around marriage
or whatever else it may be, and all of a
sudden it's built up for you as this big thing,
and now you're like, Okay, we'll either you marry me
or we're over. And then that's not comfortable for that
(38:41):
person either, because now they feel they're forced into a choice,
as opposed to a sense of how do you feel
about this and what are your thoughts about this? Again,
it comes back to we're so scared of appearing to
be naggy. Yeah, we're so scared of appearing to be
high maintenance. We're so scared of appearing to be the
one who's needy or desperate or whatever. Maybe, but we
are feeling all of those things. I've had so many
(39:03):
friends who are given the advice that if your relationship's
not working out, have a baby and it will save it.
Terrible It's never made sense to me, because if your
relationship's not working, now you have another relationship to take
care of, who is a new child, a new human
being in the in the world, And so how are
(39:23):
you You're going to give less attention to each other?
You've already been given no attention. Now you have less
attention to share with each other and more attention on
this another being. I'm shocked that that advice still gets
passed around and people still see it as a viable
solution to a bad relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, they think of it as like sunk costs, Like
we've been married this long, so we can't we can't
start over, We can't. You know, what do we do
to save this? Let's have a baby because it's a distraction.
They think like, this will be great, it's exciting, it'll
bring some vitality and energy and a liveness into the relationship,
when if you don't already have that aliveness and that
vitality between the two of you, So the baby is
(40:01):
not going.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
To provide that for you.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You're going to get a lot of outside attention like, oh,
that's so great, look at the baby. But in reality,
you guys are going to have to be more of
a team than you've ever been and problem solved more
than you've ever had to, and figure out how to
create connection under much more challenging circumstances. So it's the
most counterintuitive advice. And I always tell people if you
(40:24):
are not solid. Do not bring another person into this family.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yeah, it's almost like you already don't have problem solving skills,
you don't have collaboration skills, and now you're having to
make choices on behalf of an entirely new human being
where the stakes are so high and everything feels like
it's personal of whether things are going well for the
child or not.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Well, what happened? Does the Pain Olympics start? And what
I mean is that you know.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
I had the baby all day. I have it harder.
You didn't do this.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
No, I had it harder because I've been at work
all day and now I have to take over this
and you didn't have to work all day.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
Whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
They vie for who who has the most pain, and
then they compete for it, and that becomes their relationship.
You know, you owe me because I won the Pain
Olympics today. No, you owe me because yesterday I won
the Pain Olympics and I never got my reward, and
that becomes their whole relationship.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah. One of the questions I asked people when they
say to me, like should we have kids now or
is it the right time to have children? I often
say that I think we're asking the wrong question, Like
the question should be do I know how my life
is going to change? And am I ready for that?
And am I aware of that? And are we aware
of how our life is going to change? To the
point you're making of well, who is going to take
(41:38):
the responsibility? And am I going to feel like you're
not helping out? And what does that look like? Again,
having a conversation about it seems like the practical thing
to do. Another relationship that seems to add more complexity
since the beginning of time is in laws. You mentioned
it earlier that you have clients that come and see
you for that, the amount of friends of going to recently,
you have this challenge where they feel that the laws
(42:00):
are too involved, their in laws are not involved, when
their in laws are too involved, they're too controlling of
either or one of the partners, or they have expectations,
they have certain demands on time and holidays and where
they're spent and all of these kinds of things. What
I've found to be the core pain, again going back
(42:21):
to our earlier conversation, is people feel their partners' parents
are to involved, too demanding, too hands on. But they
feel their partner can't stand up to their parents, and
their partner doesn't understand how it affects them. That's kind
of where I've seen the main pressure that people are carrying.
(42:44):
How does someone deal with the fact that they feel
their partner doesn't defend them or stand up for them
in front of their partner's parents, and therefore they feel
their partner doesn't understand what they're going through.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
I have gotten thousands of letters to my column and
to my podcast about in life, and what I always
say is in law issues are couples issues. So people
think it's about the mother in law the father in law.
It's about the two of you. And if your partner,
whose parent that is, cannot talk to their parent on
your behalf, that's a couple's issue.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
So the person will say, oh, it's really not that bad.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
But if your partner is saying, I am really struggling
with this and it's not your you know, it's not
their parent. You need to talk to your own parent
about this. You need to have your partners back, and
if you don't, your partner is going to feel that
you are treating them the same way that their parent is.
You might not be doing the same thing, but the
(43:42):
fact that they don't have your support is going to
pull you apart in this marriage because your partner, it's
not about taking sides, it's about prioritizing this couple's relationship
and saying, listen, when you do this, it makes my
wife feel like she's not a good parent or she's
not a good wife. And you might have these values, mom,
(44:02):
and I understand that, but I don't want you saying
those kinds of things. You can have, whatever thoughts you have,
please don't say them to me or to my wife,
because I'm very happy with our relationship. And what you're
really standing up for is the relationship. It's not just
standing up for your partner, is standing up for we
understanding each other. We can talk about these things with
each other, and we do not want that kind of interference.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
What do you do when your partner doesn't have the
guts to do that, When they don't have the authority
or the relationship with their own parents, which is constantly
being they've been babied, they've been you know, the mommy's
boy or whatever it may be, and they don't really
have the courage to stand up to their parents and
say what you just said, which isn't rude, it's not mean,
(44:48):
but in their head they're like, how could I ever
defy my parents? Like what does that look like? Or
or they're guilt tripped like by their parents, where it's
like they're like, I can never do that to my mom,
like she's loved me since day one. You just turned
up in my life two years ago. What do you
do when your partner is feeling that way?
Speaker 7 (45:04):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Think you help your partner to understand that this is
a very loving thing for the relationship with the parent too.
So you're not telling the parent I don't want you
in our lives. You're saying I want you in our lives.
We both want you in our lives, but we want
you in our lives in a way that makes us
feel like we're enjoying our time with you. And if
(45:26):
it becomes this thing where we're not enjoying our time
with you and it becomes problematic, we're going to be
spending less time with you, and mom, I don't want that,
and my wife doesn't want that. We both want to
spend time with you. We just want it to be enjoyable.
So we're asking that you not talk about this whatever
the issue is, or you not do this, or you
not tell my wife to do this, or you're not criticized,
(45:48):
because that makes it not enjoyable, and then we're going
to see you less. And we love you so much
that we feel comfortable saying this to you. If we
didn't love you and we didn't care how much we
saw you, we wouldn't be bringing this up. I'm bringing
this up because I love you and I want to
be able to see you. And I think when people
when you set boundaries in a loving way, when you
say I want to see more of you, I want
(46:09):
to be able to continue to see you. I'm not
pushing you away. I'm pulling you close. But the way
to pull you close is to make sure that we
have a good time together.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah. Yeah, And I find that sometimes it can be
different in every relationship, but often this at least and
the people I know, the pressure often falls on the
man who feels like he's in between his mom and
his wife that in that kind of a setup, or
at least those are the ones that I'm aware of.
And I'm sure it has takes all sorts of forms,
(46:38):
but it's often quite a heavy pressure that I know
a lot of men feel, and they're like, I don't
want to let my mom down and I don't want
to let my wife down. And now I'm stuck in
between these two things, and it's almost like who do
I choose? And I feel like I have to choose
a side, right.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
But you're not choosing, You're actually choosing to bring everyone together.
You're saying, I want us all to be able to
be together, and so what I'm doing is I'm making
sure that we can spend more time together.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Yeah, that's great advice, and I really hope that reframe
is kind of you know, permeates one of the things
I imagine you see a lot in therapy as one
partner has forced the other partner to come there. Maybe
in couples therapy, it's hard for two people to feel
equally as excited. Maybe if they're premarrit or that may
be more equal, but when it's reactive, it's definitely one
saying we need to go to therapy, and someone may
(47:26):
feel forced. One thing I've found that a lot of
people say to me, Jaed, I just can't get my
partner to open up, Like whether it's in therapy whether
it's with me, I'm asking them, I'm talking to them.
I'm just like, I just want to know what you
feel like, even with the question you said earlier of like, hey,
I have a dream to get married. What's your take
on it? And they'll be like I don't know, or
they'll they'll go quiet when it's like, hey, we need
(47:48):
to go talk to your parents about this because they're
getting really involved and they just go quiet. They don't
know what to say, and they constantly feel that these
their partner doesn't have the capacity to open up and
find this, especially with young couples where they're just like,
my partner doesn't have an emotional vocabulary, like they don't
have the ability. How have you encouraged people in those
scenarios to be able to open up or help their
(48:10):
partners open up or create a safe space when a
lot of people don't have that skill and that ability
to actually even know what they're feeling and thinking.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Yeah, you have to create the space for that person
to feel comfortable opening up. So often people who can't
open up or have a hard time with it, they
were not given the space before. So when they opened up,
someone would say, oh, no, you don't feel.
Speaker 4 (48:34):
That way, right.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
So when they were growing up, they'd say, you know,
I'm upset about this, or I'm sad about this, and
the parent would say, no, don't be sad, let's go
get ice cream. Right, So there was no space for
the sadness. Or I'm really angry about this. Oh, you're overreacting.
You're so sensitive. So they don't tell someone that they're
angry about something, or I'm really worried about this. Oh,
(48:57):
don't worry, It'll all work out, or what do you
mean you're worried about that? Why are you always so
worried about everything? So they never felt like they had
a space for their feelings to be received and held.
We talk about in therapy the concept of feeling felt.
What does it mean to feel felt? And I love
that expression because I think that when you want someone
to open up, they want to feel felt.
Speaker 4 (49:18):
They want to know that you're going to receive whatever.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
They have to offer in a compassionate way and in
a way that feels connected. So when you tell someone
tell me what you're feeling, open up, that feels like
so much pressure as opposed to just you know, being
with them. So maybe you start with something like, hey,
I'm feeling really this about this.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
You know, what was that like for you?
Speaker 3 (49:45):
And they might say it was fine because they don't
know did you have a good time?
Speaker 1 (49:49):
You know?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Did it make you sad when this happened? It made
me sad, but maybe you didn't feel that way, you know,
just just helping them.
Speaker 4 (49:57):
To have the vocabulary.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
There's this thing called a feelings wheel, and a lot
of people only learned like with the colors, the primary colors, right,
so red, yellow, blue, right, And then if you mix
red and yellow you get orange, and there's more nuance.
And if you put more yellow, it becomes more yellowy orange, right,
And so people only know like happy, sad, mad, but
they don't know like I felt frustrated, I felt scared,
(50:22):
I felt vulnerable, I felt anxious. But where did you
feel the anxiety? Well, I felt it in my belly,
I felt it in my chest right. So there's so
much nuance. And for people who don't open up, they
often only have those three primary emotions, and then they
don't really know how to describe what they're feeling. So
you can mirror that for them and model that when
you talk about your feelings, like I was really afraid
(50:46):
of that, and I was really angry, but actually, underneath
the anger with my friend, I was feeling hurt. And
I realized I was feeling really hurt by her behavior,
and it seemed like I was angry, but I'm feeling
really neglected. And so, you know, did you ever feel
that way? Have you ever felt you know, we whatever
it is, but it just like it just becomes part
of the air. It's not like, sit down, face me
(51:08):
and tell me how you're feeling.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Open up to me.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
That feels like so much pressure, but it just like
it's in the air. And they've never lived in that
environment before, you have to remember, So it's just this
is a new planet that they've landed on, and here's
it's like a new let's say it's a new city.
And in this city, we speak a different language and
we speak in the language of emotion. And they're going
to start to pick up the language bit by bit,
but they're not going to be fluent right out the
(51:32):
cause they don't say, speak French to me. It's like, oh,
here's this new language. You'll pick up a few words
here and there.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
That's so good. That's such a great visual and analogy
like if I turn up in a different city or
a different country and someone just expected me to know
how to speak that language, I would feel so much pressure.
And actually we've all experienced that. We're like, I don't
even want to try and say a sentence yea, I
feel I'm going to sound so stupid. It's that comfortability,
and that could take a while. Love isn't supposed to
(51:59):
be easy, and it doesn't survive on perfection. It survives
on truth. It deepens when you stop performing and start practicing.
Strong relationships aren't found, they're built. So whether you're ealing
from betrayal, navigating change, or building something new, always start
with honesty and it's okay if yours looks different each
(52:22):
and everyone does. All that matters is that it's real.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my
conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up on how
to stay with your partner when they're changing and the
four check ins you should be doing in your relationship.
We also talk about how to deal with relationships when
(52:44):
they're under stress. If you're going through something right now
with your partner or someone you're seeing. This is the
episode for you.
Speaker 5 (52:52):
Now wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new
technology and we've just taken it in Hookline and Sinker.
Have to be mindful for our kids. They'll just be
thumbing through this stuff. You know, their mind's never sleeping.
Host
Jay Shetty
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