Khloé Kardashian: My Side that Nobody Knows (Truth Behind Headlines, Divorce, Co-Parenting)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(00:25):
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Speaker 2 (00:45):
God, I've been through so many things that at this
point I would rather not feel than feel, because feeling
is too much for me to handle.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
All right, We're right, Hi, am Kloet Kradashi.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Tony Kardash, and everybody clothe Kodash.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
There would be times that I was like, I don't
even want to go out to the grocery store because
I feel like I know what they're thinking about me.
And that was scary to me because I've never been
in a dark place for that long.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
You've always taken care of others. Have you discovered anything
about why you've seen yourself take on that role in
so many relationships in your world? How do you even
find the courage to trust again? The number one health
and Wellness podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Jay Shetty, Jay Sheddy Only J.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Shetty Chloe, Welcome back to On Purpose.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
You came on the podcast in twenty nineteen. Okay, that's crazy,
which is six years ago. Yeah, we just launched at
the beginning of that year, and you were such an
important part of helping the show get to where it
is today.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
So the kind words you were just saying to me
a moment ago about the show are so much because
of you. Well, thank you, And I'm so grateful to you.
Your beautiful and wonderful family who've just been so kind
to me over the years, your mom who I adore,
Kendall and Kim who've both been amazing guests on the show,
and people have got to spend time with offscreen as well,

(02:21):
And it's just you've all been so wonderful to me.
So I'm deeply grateful and deeply touched well love.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
We all adore you, we really really do. And you
just have this energy about you that everyone feels safe
and talking with you, and that's a testament to the
success of your podcast obviously, but everything that you do,
it's so from the intensity of your soul and it's
beautiful and you don't even realize that you're being recorded
when talking with you. So yes, I'm so honored to

(02:49):
be asked to be here again.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Thank you. And the last time we were together, we
were on your podcast, Yes, which I'm so excited about.
I can't wait to talk more about it.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
I cannot even believe that you Yes, I am so
grateful that you agreed to do that, but were my
second guest, and the fact that you did that and
did it just sure of course, like you never asked questions.
I'm like, this is brand new, we've never launched or
aired yet.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Thank you. It was. You're so generous and so kind.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
No, I loved it. It was so much fun speaking
to you and you using your platform to talk about
important topics and themes and vulnerability. And then my favorite
thing is we were in India just around this like
kind of coming around this time last year, yes, and
being with you in India and getting to take you
to the monastery that I stayed at for.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Some time, and what an experience.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
It's so beautiful to have that with you, and so
thank you for letting me have that experience with you
as well.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
And I don't know when this airs, but the India
episode for us, I think airs next week, so people
are going to get to see that insight and see
a little bit of where you practiced, and just what
a beautiful experience that was for us.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah, you both were so gracious and kind and curious,
and I was so in awe of just how wonderfully
respectful and thoughtful and thank you And the fact that
we were on a crazy schedule at a crazy wedding. Yes,
and you guys somehow managed to wake up to go
to a temple. It's pretty impressive.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
That was such We could not miss that opportunity, especially
to go with you, I mean to where you practice.
I mean that still, that's a pinch me moment.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
The well, Chloe, this week on the episode when we're
recording this, at least it's your fortieth birthday and that
was soon after you got back from India last year. Yes,
and I wanted to ask you, like, what it felt
like turning forty.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I know so many people dread turning forty or just
getting older, and I am the complete opposite. I probably
talked about my excitement in turning forty for at least
three years prior to turning forty. You know, my thirties
were challenging for me, as I really do think when

(04:52):
I reflect back, that they are challenging for most people.
I think your thirties is that, especially for women, because
that's sort of when people feel like, oh, their biological
clock is ticking, they should be married or have kids
by this age. And the truth is people are getting
married a little later, they are having kids later in life,
and a lot of women are focusing on what their

(05:13):
careers should be and so they're sort of putting the
family stuff on the back burner.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
At least that's what I've noticed.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
And for me, I had my kids, I had not
so many great relationships in my thirties and in my
younger twenties, but a lot of career stuff wasn't going
the way that I envisioned and hoped and planned, and
I really just wanted to get out of my thirties,
I was like, I feel good. I have my kids

(05:39):
and that's my wonderful, beautiful takeaway. And still I also
do believe that any of those experiences, they really are formative,
and no matter how traumatic and horrible they are, you
don't think that in the moment, but later on you
do get to self reflect and be like, Okay, I
needed that for some reason. But going into my forties,
I was skipping and leaping and hopping into them.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
How did you imagine your forties were going to look
when you were younger, and now that you're moving into them,
How close are they? How different are those visions?

Speaker 2 (06:10):
So I don't know if you've ever seen this meme,
but it's a meme of the Golden Girls, and I
think those ladies were in their forties or early fifties
when they're ushered away somewhere in Florida, you know, have
to live together because they're so old, and then they
do side by sides with like a bunch of women
in their forties now beautiful women, and the comparison, you're like,

(06:33):
why was I so afraid? But the representation that we
had when we were younger was very different than what
the forties. Are we're fifties now? I mean, Gabrielle Union.
I don't exactly know how old everybody is, but Jennifer Lopez,
you see all of these gorgeous women and you're like, wait,

(06:53):
I think their forties fifties?

Speaker 3 (06:55):
What am I afraid of?

Speaker 2 (06:56):
And it's not so much even about the esthetic. It's
the lifeliness that these women and the passion that these
women have for life that you're like, that doesn't seem
so bad.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, I think you're so right what you just said
now about how everyone has a tough thirties to forties.
I think it's really interesting. When you're going in your
twenties to thirties, you have a really high expectation and
then you kind of get brought down to reality. I
think everyone has a tougher twenties than they imagined. You're
having the pressure, the pressure of what it should be,

(07:30):
the pressure of starting work, the pressure of a relationship.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
But you put these kids in college and they're supposed
to what is your major? What is your minor? And
then if you go awry from that when you graduate,
it's like, then what did I pay for? But how
many times have you changed your mind? About something in life, right,
and so have I. So yes, I believe in college.
I believe in that if that's the right step for you.

(07:55):
But I also think it's people need to know how
okay it is to not necessarily know what you want
to do when you're twenty years old.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Absolutely such great advice. I mean I look at it.
In my twenties, I first became a monk. I then
left and worked in consulting, and then left and did media,
and then since then I've done video content, podcast, wrote books. Right,
just things that I would never have imagined. If someone
told me at eighteen, Jay, this is what your life's
going to look like, I wouldn't leave them. And I

(08:25):
think something you said that was really important that when
you get into your thirties there's almost like this grounding
effect as well, where you start to ask yourself what
do I really want in life? But as you get
into your forties, you're almost living that of like what's
really important? What really is my priority? Am I clear
about what I want? Whereas in your twenties you don't know,
and how could you?

Speaker 3 (08:45):
You don't know?

Speaker 2 (08:45):
And you also have that arrogance in your twenties that
no one can tell you anything, but people have to
go through that, like I don't. I get it, And
I also get now when adults were like they sort
of roll their eyes at somebody in their twenties, and
it's rare that most people in that age are so
definitive at what they want to do and if they
are great, and that is just this old soulness in them,

(09:08):
I would say. But also when i've I've only been
in my forties for a few months, but it's crazy
how quickly that you're sort of like you feel so
solid in who you are or the things that maybe
made you insecure or doubt yourself, you sort of just
let it go. And I don't know what that switch

(09:30):
exactly is. I just know that it's that grounding term
that you said, you feel so solid within yourself and
you're like, it's okay, and I know life is going
to work out. I know everything is going to come
how I envision it, because I have that drive and
desire to. But I've stopped limiting myself to it had

(09:51):
to be done before I turned forty. When I was younger,
society definitely put on me, or not just me. I
think a lot of people but now life expectancy is longer.
I think we prioritize our health from within so much more,
and people realize, Okay, it's not all about just having
babies and getting married by the time you're twenty three

(10:12):
and then just coasting the rest or figuring it out. Now,
it's like, let's figure out what we really want at
our core and then the rest will sort of unfold.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, what would you say? Because I feel like we
have such an amazing community of young women and women
who listen to this show, and so many of them,
I know, are thinking, I'm thirty years old, I'm not married,
there's so much pressure, I'm not in a serious relationship.
What words of advice, wisdom, insight, or lessons would you
share with them in that period of their life where

(10:44):
the societal pressure, the parental pressure, the personal pressure, the
pressure of what's happening all around them on Instagram, TikTok,
social media. How should they think about navigating that?

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Number one is something I had to learn myself. As
comparison as the Thief of Joy. It takes everything out
of anything that you're doing if you're constantly comparing what
you're doing to somebody else because somebody else is only
showing you their highlight reel. Anyway, we have to remember
that what we're doing is probably someone's looking at us

(11:15):
and they're like, damn, that's an amazing highlight reel, Like
I want that. But we're so conditioned now to constantly
want more and more, never be satisfied. That makes me
sad for my kids, and I always try. I have
so many nieces and nephews, and three of them are
the exact same age. It's my daughter and Kylie's daughter

(11:38):
and Kim's daughter, and sometimes that's challenging because they each
want the same thing all the time. And I sort
of like that because I like to say, not just
because someone has that doesn't mean you get to have that.
And those are smaller lessons, but you learn that later
in life so much bigger. And you can be inspired
by others or motivated by others, but the jealousy or

(12:00):
the comparison is something that we or I have had
to even retrain my brain to not always look at
someone and be like, well, why don't I have that?

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Or how can I get?

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Like?

Speaker 2 (12:11):
It should be more from a motivational way as opposed
to an envious way. But I also think, do you
want to be married and have kids because that's what
you were taught as a kid that you're supposed to do.
Do you want that and a career? And which one
do you want to have come first? And do you
not want a career? And do you just want to
be a mother?

Speaker 3 (12:31):
Like those?

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Whatever the answer is is all okay, because it's your life.
But sometimes I think that we live a life so
much for other people and we forget to check in
with ourselves. And it's okay if you had a desire
in your twenties and now you're in your thirties and
you're like, wait, I actually don't want that anymore and
I changed my direction, and it's okay to admit that

(12:53):
to yourself.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah. I think You've raised so many important points there.
One of them that resonates with me is I always
say to people the only way you can purify envy
is study. What I mean by that is when you
study someone's success, you get motivated by it. When you
envy someone's success, you get demotivated by it because you
feel it's not for me. I'm not going to get
that when you study it, when you look at how

(13:15):
they started when you look at the challenges they've gone through,
when you look at the ups and the downs, all
of a sudden you realize you get so much inspiration
that I can do it too, right, that that person's
had a very normal human journey. And maybe I just
don't see that because I'm only seeing the success. I'm
not seeing the story.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
And I think I get a very interesting take on
that because I do that with me and my sisters,
and so when I look at all of my siblings,
I know so in depthly. Also there's struggles and how
many companies we've all started that have failed, where so
many people that you look up to you don't hear

(13:54):
every little thing and tell they're at the top.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
And then they're.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
Telling you this was how they got here their success,
and sometimes you're like, okay, but you're here now and
it still seems unobtainable. But for me, I do get
I'm very lucky for my positioning because even though I
see my siblings and I see all their success, now,
I remember how much stuff we tried to do and

(14:20):
you know, throw spaghetti on the wall and it just
didn't stick. But I don't know if outsiders would see
that looking within our family all the time. I think,
if you can, you know, go back and google back
two thousand and eight whatever, you'll be like, oh, they
did that, and where's that company? And so everyone has
their failures, but I wouldn't even call them failures.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
What's the biggest lesson you were taking into your forties,
something that you've been carrying with you into this time.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
I talk to myself a lot, so I like to
be really intentional, and I like, I understand, and I
teach my daughter that happiness and positivity and all of
that is a choice. And so what I like too
is be very intentional with my days, my jobs, the
things that I choose to do and spend time on,

(15:09):
and not in a smug sort of way. But I
wake up a lot and I'm like, oh, I'm just
in either a melancholy mood or I'm woke up on
the wrong side of the bed. I'm not a nice
person today. And I'll look myself in the mirror and
I will have a back and forth talk with myself
and I'm like, no, I'm happy today. I'm choosing happy.

(15:30):
But so much of that came really when I was
in my forties. Maybe my last thirty ninth year, because
I realized how much of a dark cloud I felt
was surrounding me in my thirties. But yes, things happen
to me, but it's also my responsibility to choose how
I respond to those things.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
And I think.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Because of social media maybe as well, that I let
so much of the noise make me even sadder or
make me feel like I was less worthy, less of
a person, that I needed to be so crumbled and
embarrassed about what happened to me, where yes I probably
would have had those feelings, but maybe not as long
as I did because that narration was going on for

(16:14):
so long, and so I finally was sort of like,
screw every dark noise I'm hearing, and I'm going to
say every day, no, I am worthy. I'm worthy of
a happy, beautiful, positive day, being intentional in that way.
And it's funny when I wake my kids up every day,
I'm like, we're going to have a happy day because
we choose to have a happy day. But embedding in

(16:36):
them those small little affirmations. I mean, I'm forty and
I need it, so you know, I think it's a
good thing.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, I can agree with you more. I always say
to myself, like, I can't make like the day doesn't
have to be great to me, but I can make
the day a great day, right, because they could be
ups and downs. It could be someone says something, someone
could mean to me, someone could cut me off in traffic,
someone could do whatever it may be to me. But
I get to choose how I respond. I get to

(17:06):
choose how I react, and it makes such a difference.
One of the themes in the show this year has
been all of you talking about sheddings the burdens of
the past. And I think that's such an interesting thing
because I think as you get older, you start to
notice what you've been carrying with you right right, and
you've had longer to carry it with you, and now
you're more aware what were some of those things that

(17:28):
came up for you? And you were like, I think
these are things that I've been holding on to that
I need to shed. What are some of those burdens.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
I'm not a victim to this, but I do feel
like I was in a way victimizing myself. But again,
it sort of was more from the outside noise. I
hate that I allowed other people to have that much
control over the way I viewed myself. But I would
say just from my past dating history, and a lot
of them ended in cheating or there was just they

(17:57):
weren't great situations at the end. But yes, I think
even in the most private of times, if that happened
and nobody publicly knew about it, they're still shame. Within
your family, you feel embarrassed, like how you know, what
did I do? You always make it about yourself, and
that's okay because hopefully you will get stronger and reflect
and not make those same mistakes again. And for me,

(18:21):
they happened repeatedly, and I was like, okay, this is
about me. I'm either not paying attention, I'm sweeping something
under the rug, like I really wanted to be so
aware of what I was doing and let that go,
but let the guilt and the shame of that go
because I quote allowed it to happen more than once.

(18:45):
And I'm saying that because I didn't allow it to happen.
But the narrative out there was like, well, you get
what you get. You know, like I should have known better,
and yes, I probably should have, but I needed to
learn that lesson. I know, I carried so much shame
and guilt where there would be times that I was like,

(19:05):
I don't even want to go out to the grocery
store and look at someone in the eyes because I
feel like I know what they're thinking about me. They
probably don't know who I am, they probably never heard
this story. But the shame, this cloud that was I
felt following me everywhere that I don't know if it
was even that big to other people, but I definitely

(19:26):
felt like I was constantly surrounded by a gray cloud.
I would limit myself from doing a lot of things
and seeing a lot of people because I was I
felt such shame where I was like, intentionally, no, I'm
going to let this go.

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(21:09):
maturity in what you're saying that requires so much and
something I want to kind of go into with you
is this idea of how do we take accountability but
not take full responsibility right it's that idea of like,
as you said, you can't you can't blame yourself, and
at the same time, you had to find a way

(21:31):
to recognize you wanted to make better decisions. And I
think it's such a fine line because I think we
go from saying it's not my fault, it's everyone else's fault,
to the being like, oh, it's all my fault. It's
all me. I'm the one to blame. I did this
to myself. How did you find that balance which requires
so much thoughtfulness and maturity to actually get to that

(21:52):
place where it's like, I'm going to take accountability to
change my life, but I'm also going to recognize that
this happened to me, but it wasn't about me. As
you said, how do you get to that?

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Well, the interesting part is I think the very first
time it happened, I didn't do that and that's okay
because it's done. Yeah, And I also had to forgive
myself for that. There was a time that I was
felt very guilty, like why did I even stay? Why
why am I not forgiving myself? I would blame myself
for everything.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
And then the.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Second time, you know, I my surgeate was still pregnant
with Tatum, and the people didn't know yet that I
was having Tatum. But I felt such shame that it
was happening again because I knew, I knew better.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, I mean, as I'm listening to I'm just thinking
about the amount of people that are probably listening to
right now, thinking, Chloe, I had that fantasy too, and
you had the courage, even though at one point, as
you said, you were kind of why did I stay
that long or why did I keep doing that? And
you had to forgive yourself for that. But I think

(23:02):
a lot of people don't know how to know when
something's no longer serving them. And as I'm listening to you,
I'm listening to someone who's saying I finally got to
a point where I realized this fantasy wasn't serving me,
it was keeping me here. We can't speed it up, no,
we can't rush ourselves to it. You can't be forced
to it, no.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
And that's what I mean.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think people also need to be patient with themselves,
like if they don't, if you're not feeling accountable in
some of the actions that you're making, are some what
someone else is doing to you that's Okay, there will
be a day that you will wake up.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
Listen.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
If I was watching me when I was in my twenties,
I would be judging that person too and being she's
so stupid it's going to happen again. I don't blame
people for their judgment. I think with life comes great
wisdom and life experiences. And if my story helped anybody
else feel less alone, because it's such an isolating feeling.

(24:00):
You feel like you're on this island and it doesn't
happen to anybody else, and sadly it does. And I
know so many people that stay longer.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Than I did.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
And not that it's right, but you have to let
go when you really feel like you're ready, or I
think that person will always feel like, well what if
in this? And I really just like to live my
life in this. No, I'm solid in that action. I'm
solid in that choice that I made.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
You're making such a powerful point here, and I really
want everyone to take it home as they're listening, Like,
you can only learn on your own timeline. You can't
learn on anyone else's. You can't look at someone else's
pace and say, oh, I should have done it like
that and really.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
Why are they doing it?

Speaker 4 (24:46):
Like?

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Why are they doing it like that? And I think
we just don't. It's really easy to look at someone
else's life, whoever it may be, our friends, our family,
people on the screen, and think we know how perfectly
they should live. Yet we all know how hard it
is to make one decision in our own life. And
what I've learned from ever having any training and learning

(25:10):
from my spirituality and non judgment was just that everything
you judge in someone else, you won't fully understand until
you have to go through it yourself. And as soon
as you go through it yourself, you wake up and
you go, I cannot believe I judge someone else for
how they were navigating a divorce or break up, a marriage,

(25:32):
whatever it may have been.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
And trust me, I was that person one of us. Yes,
when I was younger, I used to you either read
something and you have a comment about it or one
of your friends or family members and yes, and then
you live your life and you go through it and
you're like, Okay, I get it a little bit more.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, how did you learn to forgive yourself? Because I
think that is sometimes harder. And if I could say
this just from the moments I've been fortunate enough to
spend time with you and connect with you, and thankfully
they've always been very deep. And so even though we
haven't spent lots of time together, I feel when we
have it's always been deep time. It's always a meaningful
conversation or an exchange. And as I'm sitting with you

(26:13):
here today versus six years ago the first time, and
every time I've seen you in between, I feel you've
got more and more peaceful. Thank you, just in your presence,
You've always been wonderful and kind, but more and more
peaceful in yourself. And what I see as someone who's
become a master in forgiveness. Your superpower is your ability
to forgive, to forgive others, but even more importantly yourself.

(26:37):
And so I'm really intrigued about your self part, because
forgiving other people is one thing, but letting yourself say, hey,
I moved at the right time, I moved at the
right pace. I don't need to hate on myself and
not getting out of it sooner or not seeing it sooner,
that requires so much in a forgiveness walk us through that.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
Gosh, that's a deep one, Jay.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
It is it is you're the one who's lived.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
I mean, oh my gosh, well, I am not always
kind to myself, and I think I am my biggest
bully and critic and all of those things at times.
And it is much easier for me to forgive others
than myself. I will say that forgiving myself has really
been more of the last three years of my adult life.

(27:23):
But I was so great at giving other people grace, forgiveness,
making not excuses for them, but just like always coming
to their defense no matter how wrong they've done me,
because I feel like it's not my place to judge
them and I don't know everything they're going through and

(27:44):
that type of thing. And then one day I was like,
but why don't I give myself the same energy that
I'm giving so freely to other people? And a lot
of it comes through my prayer and my relationship with God,
and y know, like I really had to also say
to myself that this isn't about me, what these people

(28:05):
have done. It's not just relationships in so many different levels,
and there are times that you feel like, Okay, what
is it? Why do so many people take advantage or lie, cheat,
steel whatever it is you can be angry. You can
have your feelings, but sometimes you feel like, oh, it
must be me because it's happened so many times. And

(28:27):
that's also why I feel like boundaries are so important
to set and I never had boundaries before, and I
think that was a big thing. But I think a
lot of that is releasing it and just knowing that
that's not your burden to carry.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
I think that's what it is. We start to believe
deeply that there's only one problem and that's us, right right.
We walk around thinking that it's all because of me,
it's because of my weakness, it's because of my flaws,
it's because of whatever else it is, and we completely
forget that anything else to it.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, because then also if you're like, well, that's not
because of me, like when people say it also in
that way, they're like, well, you know, like if everyone
says that whatever, then it has to be you too.
So there's that fine line lie in.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
That, for sure.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
But I think when you're just aware and when you're
solid in yourself, I really do think it's okay to
release those things. And if you are doing the work,
if you're and the work doesn't have to be therapy
like with a actual therapist, if you have a group
of friends, and if those people really are unbiased and
not judgmental, and you can go to.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
That do that.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
For me, I really enjoy writing. It's not for people
to see, it's just it's a form of expression for me,
and I feel like I'm really getting this energy out
of my system.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
And sometimes I'll write and I'm like, I'm tearing this
up so no one ever sees it, and I don't
even know what I'm going to start writing. I'm like,
I just got to get this on from pen to paper.
It's such a release. And sometimes that's the quote therapy
that I need, or the conversation that I need a
lot of the times it's the gym, it's whatever. But
once I get to that point that I'm like okay,

(30:11):
light bulb goes off, I'm like, yes, I could have
done things differently, but I'm not the reason why this
happened to me, Like there's really no excuse for certain behavior.
But yes, I probably could have handled things differently or
saw things differently. But you know, I think people have
to be fair and not just play the victim, but

(30:33):
not also play that they're this champion and this crusader
there definitely has to be. There's good and bad to
all of us, if we want to admit it or not.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Absolutely, And I think it's that it's being able to
accept that I was weak, but I am not weak, right.
There's a difference in that language, even in the way
you're speaking about it. There's a difference in I made
a mistake versus the mistake exactly. And I think as
soon as it becomes internalized to believe that that's who

(31:05):
I am, that's who I've always been, and I won't
be anything else, then we don't allow ourselves to say no.
It's almost like looking back at an outfit of yours
and going, god, I don't know why I was wearing that, right, right,
And you're like, why did I wear that? Like those
two things don't even go together, right, But you know
you're not your clothes, so you forgive yourself and you go, Okay,
that was a bad day, and I'll wear something else today,

(31:26):
and I can make sure that you're not.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Able to laugh about it exactly. Yes, And the same
sentiment should be held for our past mistakes, like haven't
you ever done anything? And then it mortified you where
you were so angry at yourself, and then five years
later you will hysterically laugh about it with your wife
or whatever.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, and that's the best.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yes, And that's.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
How I think most of our failures, mistakes in life
should be. Sure at the moment, they're horrible and they
make you feel really bad, but how beautiful is it
when you have so much growth from that and you're
a completely different person in a beautiful way. And then
you look back and you can laugh at that at

(32:06):
something that made you sob cry in a corner and
you were, you know, in a fetal position you don't
want to see anyone, And then you're like, no, Okay,
I had a bad moment. It's not a bad life,
and I can move on and be stronger and better.
But sometimes we let those moments consume us and we
never get out of them. And for me, that's a

(32:26):
place that I never want to be, because I felt
like I was in that for a few years, and
that was scary to me because I've never been in
a dark place for that long, of a place of
shame and guilt and all of that. And then finally
I just said to myself, Okay, enough, no one wants
to be around someone and you're like, how's your day?

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Fine?

Speaker 2 (32:50):
And not that I was that person, but internally I
felt like I was that person. I love being happy
and joyful and like life is so great if you
look for the.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Good, you just hit on something that's really important. I
think a lot of people kind of get into that lull,
like that feeling of a long period of I don't
see light at the end of a tunnel. And was
it like that for you? I mean, you're so committed
to the work, whether it's your prayer, you're journaling. We
were just talking earlier when you came in about how

(33:21):
you need a few hours every week just by yourself. Yes,
and that's a practice that you've maintained with children, with
your businesses, with your responsibilities. That carving out that time
is so important to you. Talk to me about that
about like how much the work helped you even in
the darkest times. Were you able to maintain it or.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
I mean, the work is what got me out of
the darkest times. I think it's it's really easy to
turn to God or whoever you're higher being. Is it's
really easy to turn there when you're in this low time.
And like get me out, and you know, and you
just think magically they're going to send you a ladder
and like pull you out of this ditch. But yes,

(34:03):
he will maybe give you signs and tools, but you
have to do the work. He can give you the recipe,
but you got to put all the cake mix and
everything together and bake the cake. And I think so
many times people expect it just like to be magic,
get me out of there, and they don't want to
do the work. So the work is scary. Being alone
is scary with the self reflection and writing and all that, like,

(34:24):
because you're like, oh, I have to face myself and
that seems a little daunting. And people like to distract
and not come to terms with who they are. For me,
and again, being in my twenties, I did a lot
of distracting. It's fun to distract, especially at that age
and you don't have kids and you can do whatever.

(34:44):
And so I remember that after my divorce or even
when my dad died, my dad dad. When I was nineteen,
I remember going out every night because I was an avoidant.
Let me avoid these feelings. If it's if I'm not
feeling them, they're not happening. Well, that didn't work too well.
I remember losing all my hair, gaining so much weight, hyperventilating,

(35:07):
like when I would be alone when I got a divorce,
very similar, Let me go out, let me party, drink,
hang out with new guys. What does that get me?

Speaker 1 (35:18):
You know?

Speaker 2 (35:18):
I realized, Okay, these ways of coping didn't work for
so many years that when this time happened, and maybe
a little help of COVID, it was around twenty twenty two,
twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, but still things were
still sort of locked down a little bit, and I

(35:39):
just said, no, I'm not going to date anyone now
I have kids too, I'm not going to a club.
Like what am I doing? But having to face myself
and intentionally be alone, intentionally do the work intentionally. Every day,
I wake up at five am because I need that
alone time, to have my coffee, do my prayers, listen

(36:01):
to my Bible app like whatever it is that makes
you whole, I need that, and I know when I
don't have that, how different my day feels. I like
to set my intentions for the day or my workouts,
the clarity I get just whatever it is everyone's going
to be different. If you need to be outside, you
have to decide that. But it did take me a

(36:23):
long time of doing other things and seeing how horrible
those things served me for me to find, Okay, this
I like. And yes, it's easy for me to go
and date a man and be an avoidant and distract
these real feelings. But then what, the same thing is
probably going to happen to me again because I don't
know what I'm doing, and I'm just willy nilly going

(36:47):
through life, and what because somebody is cute or this,
I'm not paying attention to the core of people and
even to the core of myself. And I just started
listening to myself and finding the things that really made
me feel whole but alone. And I know so many
of my friends cannot be alone because they don't want

(37:07):
to hear their own thoughts, they don't want to start
working on themselves. And I'm not judging that, but I
know how amazing it is to be alone with myself
and to like who I am.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
I'm so glad you talked about that, because I think
that's one of the challenges we have today in the world,
is our inability to be alone. And again I come
at it from the same point of view as you.
It's not about being judgmental. It's coming from a place
of compassion and empathy. That you can't break a pattern

(37:42):
if you simply avoid it and pretend it doesn't exist.
And when we're alone, we're breaking the pattern because we
have to look at those assumptions. We have to look
at all those beliefs. We have to look at the
hardwired truths that we're living by. And we've got to
look at way a minute every decision I make. Where
in the past did that seed get planned? And I'm
now eating the fruit from that? And what seed do

(38:04):
I want to plant today? Because I want to eat
a different fruit in the future. Others we keep eating
the fruits from the past and never plant any new seeds.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
I understand how difficult it is to change your mindset.
Your mind is a muscle.

Speaker 3 (38:16):
I get it.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
And we are humans by nature, like they love a routine.
You find comfort in that. I totally get that. So
I'm not saying, oh, it's so easy, go ahead and
do this, No, but it's little practices every day.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah. I always say to people, there's two questions you
have to ask yourself. The first is I use someone
who seeks discomfort or someone who needs to build confidence.
So if you're someone who needs to seek discomfort, you
should start with the hardest thing first. And if you're
someone who needs to build confidence, you should start with
the easiest thing first. Because some of us want to

(38:51):
wake up in the morning and jump into a cold
plunge because that sets us up for the day. Yeah,
and some of us just need to wake up and
make our bed. And if we do that now we
feel we can do harder things. And all of us
are one or the other. And the second thing is
are you an extremist or are you a balanced person?
So for someone like me, I'm really good at being extreme.
So if I make a decision and a commitment, I

(39:14):
can be really extreme and cut it out tomorrow. My
wife is more balanced. If you asked her to eat
one tiny piece of chocolate to day, she could do that.
Me I could either the whole bar and the whole
box or nothing, because that's who I am as a person.
And so it all comes back to what you're saying
that when you're spending time alone, you get a real
sense of who you are, and then you get to

(39:35):
make better habits and decisions for yourself. For you, as
we're talking about all of this and your commitment to
the work, your commitment and continued commitment to it, why
was traditional therapy a path that you wanted to go
down and take part in? As you mentioned, why was
that something that you open the door to?

Speaker 2 (39:54):
So for me, I never really thought I needed to
go the conventional. Kimberly was also anti therapy for her
own reasons, and I want to say maybe two years ago,
maybe a little bit longer, she started seeing a therapist
that she really really liked, and she just suggested I

(40:16):
meet with her, and I actually really liked her. I
really enjoy speaking with her. This might sound silly, but
she is you know, she's like from our neighborhood. Like
there's so many things that she gets us on. And
I also love how chill she is. Like at the beginning,

(40:37):
she would when I would talk to her, she was like,
I think I need to see you three days a week.
And I was like three days a week. And I
remember telling Kendall, and Kendall was like, I've never heard
of someone seeing a therapist three days a week. Do
you need to go to a mental institution, like are
you okay? And I was like, oh my gosh, is
that not normal? And we started talking, me and the

(40:57):
therapist more and more, and she was like, okay, I
think you're like, you're actually really self aware and you're great.
I just I had this little hump that I think
I needed her a little bit more, maybe because I
was just getting started.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
And I love that she's also very chill. She's liked
call me when you need me, she checks in on
me by tech. She's more like a friend, and you
just feel I feel like I could trust her, and
that's very rare for me. And I also think because
of her relationship with Kim, she felt like more of
a friend as opposed to this traditional therapist. And that's

(41:33):
not bad or good, but because of my experience with
past therapists, I didn't want something that was very traditional
because I couldn't trust that. So I don't see her
on a weekly basis anymore. I know when I need
to see her, I will, but we do our check
ins every now and again. But I honestly feel like
I'm in such a good place. And I also don't

(41:56):
think that there's one which way that people can or
need to get any help or life coaching if you will.
I think that it's not a one size fits all.
I think everyone whatever you're willing to try, try it,
and whatever you feel like really speaks to your soul,
and that's that's the way to go.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, there's such a value when you can
trust someone in speaking to someone who's not connected to
your life right and almost doesn't feel the pressure to
remind you, hey, you're doing great, or like you know
that's trying to fill all those other ways. But the
thing that stood out to me is, you know you
talked earlier about the romantic relationships where your trust was broken.

(42:38):
How do you even find the courage to trust again.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
That's really hard And it took me over ten years
to see a therapist again. And so many people I
think you need therapy, and I was like, well, I'm
sure I do, but I don't feel comfortable talking to anybody.
And definitely, at first, I would talk to her so monotone,
so matter of fact. She would even say, you don't
have emotion when you're speaking, And for me, I had

(43:06):
to turn off the emotional switch in me and I
would tell stories because they are a matter of fact
when I'm giving you the facts. But it was more
like I'm it wasn't me. I'm just reading off somebody's
life story. And one of our activities or homework assignments
basically was me writing some like from the mini traumas

(43:29):
to the big traumas in my life and writing them down.
And the more I would write them down, it's like
this is ridiculous, like how many many to major traumas
there are? And then we would go line by line
and talk about them, as opposed to just being like
this happened and this and throwing everything under the rug.
She wanted to dissect everyone, not to be nosy, not

(43:51):
for I felt it like there's some people I meet
with and I'm like, I do not trust this person.
I'm not going to give them anything. And she really
worked hard to earn my trust. That made me feel
safer with her and just to sort of get why
I am so dead about some of the things that
I should probably be crying about if I'm telling somebody

(44:13):
this story that I'm telling. But the trust took a
long time. But I will say because I trust all
of my siblings with everything, in me that normally if
it is an introduction through them, course, my guards do
go down. And Kim has had her own crazy things
that she's not very trusting with either, So for her

(44:34):
to trust I was like, Okay, I think I'm a
little safe here.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, what did you find about that? Because I think
that's so true for so many people who go to
therapy that when you first go, you do recount your
life as if it's a biography, right right, you talk
about it is if it's another person, right, because we
have disassociated and disconnected some of that emotion as a
protective mechanism, as a mechanism of not internalized all of it.

(45:00):
What did you find when you started to kind of
go through the less salacious parts and these more and
to be honest, I also imagine it's rarely those moments
that are the really defining moments. The defining moments happened
much earlier, right, well, the unseen things. What did you
discover as you started to almost as you said in
your words, you were dead. How did you become more
alive to the emotion of those moments? What did you discover?

Speaker 2 (45:23):
I remember, I would just like I wrote everything down
and I would read them as if I was reading,
like you said, somebody's biography and I'm like okay. She
would just keep asking me, you don't have any feeling
when you read these? And I was like, well yeah,
and I would start laughing and she's like, okay, well

(45:43):
not laughter because I would feel so uncomfortable, and then
that's my nervousness. And I realized once I was I
would be like okay, sort of get my own ego
out of the way, like I had to strip myself down.
And it took a few times. Like she did want
me to cry and relive this, she just was more
fascinated how I was so numb to so many things,

(46:08):
and it really made me more sad for myself because
I felt as if, God, I've been through so many
things that at this point I would rather not feel
than feel, because feeling is too much for me to handle.
And what is life if you don't feel things like
I want to feel. I do want to feel sadness too,

(46:31):
like I love feeling joy and happiness. But then why
am I so get I know why I'm so okay
with that feeling. But also, grief is also a beautiful
thing because it's an expression of love. And I think
being sad or hurt means that there was once something
or someone that you valued and cared about so much.

(46:52):
And those were things that I had to learn and
be like, it's okay, you're safe here. So it really
just taught me to remind myself, like, we don't have
to be numb to everything. And I use humor as
an escape, as a defense mechanism. I do love to
laugh and I do love humor, but I realize in
really dark situations I do tend to make a joke

(47:16):
of it at some point, like that's just my personality,
and I have to remind myself it's okay to cry,
or it's okay to have feelings. That doesn't make me weak.
And I don't even that's not even a thought I'm having, like,
oh are they going to think I'm weak? But whenever
I do cry, I tend to apologize afterwards for some reason.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Have you figured out why? No?

Speaker 3 (47:37):
I should probably ask her about that.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
Yeah, well, I think Bartley, it's because we're I mean,
you probably know it as a mother. I think whenever
we were crying as kids, most people just said to it,
it's okay, don't cry, Yeah, it's okay, don't cry. Whatever
it was right and not that our parents had bad
intentions or anything like that. Time it's a natural thing
to say. But it's like, I think we've always been

(48:00):
made to feel like if you cried, it was almost
wrong or it wasn't needed, or it wasn't necessary, and
it's so weird.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
My mom cried, Like I wish I was more like that.
She cries at anything and everything, like but happy.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
I don't know if I've cried happy tears ever, but
I wish I was that type of person that I'm like, oh,
my goodness, the joy, Like I wish I had a
little bit of that. She maybe has too much. I
wish she could sprinkle a little onto me. But I
am more all different.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
I'm that person I can like get teary to it.
Like if I get asked to speak of someone's birthday
that I love, or someone's wedding or whatever it is,
I am just holding back tears. I've had the opportunity
to officiate some weddings, and whenever I'm phishating, I'm just
literally going, Jay, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, because
I just when I see people in love and I

(48:52):
see you know all families, and that's my dream. Yeah,
I like I'm holding back the whole time.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
Yeah, No, that's my dream to be Like I I
have a heart, I have emotions.

Speaker 3 (49:02):
This is beautiful like I wish.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
But you're so expressive with your words. I know. I
feel like every time we talk we've connected, whether we're
messaging or whatever it is, you're so expressive. You're so
loving through your words. Thank you, like you would feel that,
and that's so natural and genuine to you.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
So it's that I feel all those things, like I'm
probably too expressive with words sometimes, but maybe it's because
I'm not a great I don't cry very often at all,
and maybe that's why I don't know. Like sometimes I
turn on a sad movie just because I'm like, get
the tears out, and sometimes they don't come out, Like

(49:38):
there's what is wrong with me?

Speaker 1 (49:40):
My wife will look over at me because I'm crying
in every moment. She's like, how are you crying at this?
Like nothing's even happened to I know what's gonna happen? Yeah, exactly.
So it seems like one of the things I noticed
with you is you're such a rock for your family,
for your children, even for your ex partners. Like you've
been such a raw and in one sense, it seems

(50:02):
like one of your patterns is you've always taken care
of others and other people. Have you discovered anything about
why you've seen yourself take on that role in so
many relationships in your life?

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, well, it's definitely my love language. And I am
such a maternal person. I've always been that person and
no one's ever said this to me. And my parents
are so loving and so incredible. But I used to
feel but I like, I still love taking care of people,

(50:35):
but I used to feel like I wasn't worthy of
like so many other things. But I knew if I
took care of someone or was support like, then maybe
I'd be worthy of them loving me back. And that's
how I used to feel. And I don't know where
that came from, but it's almost like I have to
earn my place in this person's life. So if I'm

(50:56):
there for them, then maybe like that's enough because what
else do I have to offer?

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Was how I used to.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Feel when it comes to all the kids, I was
very not by my family, but by other people. I
was always talked about my looks, always told that I
was chubby. No one ever believed that I was my
sibling's sibling. They would always say, oh, look, words she'd
come from her, She's related to you, from like teachers

(51:24):
that I remember so vividly, and that feeling of being
always compared to them, but always not good enough to
be considered their sibling. And I don't think these adults
maliciously knew what they were doing, but it was so
impactful that for children, I will do everything to include

(51:45):
them for them to never feel like that, and for
adults too. But like with kids, I don't play and
I never want someone to feel the way I did,
and so I want to be that rock for everyone.
And you know, I think also having so many brothers
and sisters, you know, we were raised with my stepdad's
kids too, being in and out. We had four stepsiblings,

(52:07):
so there was eight of us and then at one
point ten of us, and there's a lot and sometimes
people just don't feel as seen as others and parents
are doing the best that they can, and so I
always have just wanted everyone to feel seen and supported
and from every sister and exes like it's just I
feel like they're always in our lives, that God puts

(52:29):
people in our lives for a reason. But I don't
know it's a part of me that I actually really
love about myself. Because we've talked about it in therapy.
She thinks I give my love. What did she say?
I don't want to mess it up. She's like, I
think you give your love to others because you've never
really felt that love yourself. But I know I've felt

(52:49):
that from my parents. It's mainly from outside people that
I've never really felt real genuine love. It was like, oh,
they'll take me because they wanted Courtney Kim and or whatever.
Like I always had to like I was always the
funny one because I felt like that was how I
would get attention, because it wasn't because oh she's so

(53:09):
cute or this or that, because people always made such
a point to tell me how much I did not
look like them or things like that. So I felt like, well,
those were the things that people praised me on, so
let's keep them up.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah, And it is such a beautiful thing to be
able to say I love this about myself, and yes,
maybe it's made me overgive or over love or overshare
or whatever it may be. But at the same time,
there's a beauty in this helps me be an amazing mom,
helps me protect these children like which is such a
beautiful gift. And I think sometimes that's so true that

(53:43):
our greatest gifts and our greatest superpowers come from how
we were loved and what we experienced, what we had
or didn't have, and it starts figuring out how that
superpower can still live in our life and not trip
us up. I think as time's gone on, as we
start to set bound a boundary should never put a
boundary on your ability to love. It's a boundary to

(54:06):
protect you from loving the wrong person. And there's a
difference in that right you wanting to share love and
give love should never be limited.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
But who you are not a bad thing and not a.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Bad thing and not a bad thing. And I think
we all can become closed hearted and you know, darker
and bitter about it because of what we've experienced. But
I love that you've held onto that. And I think
the biggest challenge for a good hearted, good person is
that we believe everyone loves the way we do yes,

(54:37):
and then when they don't, we feel hurt. By it,
and then we can become closed and unloving. But that's
the biggest loss for the world. It's the biggest loss
for our lives, because, as you said, there's so much joy.
If you can feel joy in being that person, it's
a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
People are always so surprised that I'm not more cynical
when it comes to love. I always asked, you ever
think you're going to get married again? And I go, yes,
I hope, I'm want to get married again. I think
marriage is the most beautiful union that there is. And
I love that. I love family. I mean, look at
our family. We can't get away from each other. And

(55:16):
I love every aspect of love, whether it be just
for a friendship, love or like I value that respect
and that secrecy and that loyalty and whatever it is.
And people are always surprised that I believe in love.
I probably am more joyful now, especially with love, than

(55:38):
maybe five years ago. And it's because I feel like
I know how to control myself more, where before, you know,
you just give things so freely. And I love giving love.
I love loving myself, loving my family and others. But
I feel like I'm a little bit wiser with maybe

(55:58):
whom I give it to so innocently.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
I think the amazing thing about love is we think
love is also something we only feel when we receive it,
But love you actually feel it when you get to
give it. Yes, there's like a joy in giving love
that isn't there even in receiving it.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
I could not worry more like I cannot accept gifts
from people. I feel so uncomfortable, but giving somebody a
gift I love, and I get so excited just for
because I like to give really thoughtful gifts.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
It's just the joy that you give to people. I love.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Yeah, I just love. And I do have a problem
where I love people. I was one of those kids.
My mom was like, I could never leave you alone.
You would just go talk to everyone and I but
I've always been a people person, so and I never
want to see people in pain. I want to be
that love and support for someone if and when I can.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, speaking of marriage. Obviously recently
on the show, you had Lamar on the show, and
I believe it was the first time you'd seen each
other in nine years, almost ten almost ten years. Yes,
I wonder why did you feel now? Was the time
to reconnect and was it you initiated? Was him? Where

(57:11):
did that come from?

Speaker 2 (57:12):
So yeah, Lamar and I. The last time I saw him,
I believe was twenty sixteen. Wow, And it never spoke.
Nothing since twenty sixteen, if my memory serves correctly. I
was actually at Super Bowl last year, the one in
Las Vegas, and my best friend Malika was there and

(57:33):
she was staying somewhere else and she ran into him
in a hotel lobby and they both just started like
crying because they were really close and just embraced and
they exchanged numbers and so that's how the first intro happened.
And for Lamar I I've when we divorced, Lamar was

(57:54):
not in a good headspace. But Lamar's a seven foot
tall man. We had all this custom furniture and he
was like, just get rid of it all. I don't
want to just sell the house.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
And I'm like what. I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
With that, So for years I kept a storage unit
of all of his furniture, thinking one day he would
want it, and years ago before I had kids, thank you, Well,
it's his and expensive and he's a big guy, like
you're going to want it, and I remember he was
before I had true I think I was just pregnant.

(58:28):
I was like, you know what, I just I don't
need to hold on to this storage unit anymore. And
he said, through his friend who will go unnamed, said
give him the storage keys and he'll take it for me.
And I was like, cool, Fine, I did so, and
I found out later down the line that this friend

(58:48):
of his sold everything that was in the unit and
without Lamar knowing, and that broke my heart because I
was like, I've saved these things for years. I could
have got rid of it then, but these were his
belongings and memorabilia from all of his sports stuff and whatever.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
So that broke my heart.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
When I moved from my last house during COVID, I
think it was twenty twenty or twenty twenty one, I
didn't think I had a thing of Lamar's. I found
Lamar's six Man of the Year trophy. I found his
mom passed away when he was twelve. I believe I
found stuff of his mother's. They were all in my
attic jewelry, all this stuff, and I held on to

(59:28):
it and I said, I'm never going to give this
to somebody else unless it's Lamar. I'm going to hold
onto these things because now I don't trust his people
around him. And when Malika reached out. When Malika told
me she saw him, I said, that's so weird. I
just found his mom's driver's license last week and I

(59:49):
was like, okay. She's like, well, why don't you give
it to him? I was like, let me think this over.
And it took a few months for me to want
her to reach out to say, like, do you want
to met up with me? Because I wanted to do it.
I didn't want to just drop it off. I didn't
I wanted to see him and make sure still that
he was doing okay. And at the time I didn't

(01:00:11):
have any feelings. I was like, yeah, let's hang let's
come over, Let's go to Malika's house. I didn't want
to do it in public where it would be a
big spectacle. I didn't want to do it at my
house because my kid's there, and he knew about the cameras.
He picked the time of the date. I never would
have ambushed somebody about that, and he picked the time
of the date. He flew in for it, and it's

(01:00:33):
so weird. When I thought I was totally cool, and
when he came in, he was so nervous, and I
was trying to reassure him, like we're fine and whatever.
And there would be times in our conversation that I
started getting these feelings. I don't know if they're triggers

(01:00:54):
or because we've both experienced a lot of trauma together,
Lamar and I, and there would be either little mannerisms
or things that would flash me back to ten fifteen
years ago, and I didn't realize how triggered I was
getting from Lamar.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
What did it bring up for you? And was it
useful in giving moreclosure? Did it feel like it moved
it on or was it kind of like pulling you back?
Because I'm thinking about all the people in the world
to have the courage festival to even not talk to
someone for nine years, because that's hard enough as it is,
but then to kind of throw yourself back into it
that much time later.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Well, I could only say this because he I would
never tell somebody else's story. But I'm saying this because
he said it on the episode. We didn't talk for
ten years because after his overdose, Lamar couldn't walk or
talk and he had a significant amount of seizures and
strokes and needed to be rehabilitated, and I helped him
through that journey, and then when he was at a

(01:01:56):
decent place, he started using again, and he said that
on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
That's why I'm saying it now.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
And from that moment was when I was paying for
a house firm to be in, I was taking care
of him, and I said, I can never see you again,
not that it was anything ever romantic. I love Lamar
with all my heart even today, I love, love, love him,
and I know he was like one of the greatest

(01:02:25):
loves of my life. It just other circumstances took over.
So I really sincerely wanted the best for him. When
he started using again after such a horrific accident where he,
in my opinion, is a miracle that he is alive today.
I couldn't understand how someone would go and do that again.

(01:02:47):
And I get it's a disease, but it felt like
you punched me in my stomach. And I put so
much of my life on hold to take care of
this person, just for them to be like, well, that's fine,
Like I'm not sure how he felt about himself. It
made me feel that he had no respect for his
own life and for anything that I did for him

(01:03:11):
as well. And so from that moment on, I said, no,
I'm not speaking to this person anymore because it does
nothing for me. There's no benefit in this. I felt
more like I would be taking care of him but
being lied to. I just I had so many negative thoughts.
So that ten year break, as sad as it was,

(01:03:33):
it wasn't that hard for me because I it was,
but it was sad, and I thought about him all
the time and always wanting to make sure he's okay.
And then when I saw him, like I loved seeing him,
it was great. It was really sad at the same
time seeing someone I thought I would never outgrow. I

(01:03:56):
realized how much I outgrew him, and that made me sad.
But I wonder if we were still married, would we
have grown together? And there were so many things that
made me wonder even more, like would we have grown
together if we did stay together, would this have stopped?
Or would it would that beast always you know, be

(01:04:19):
needing to be fed. But you can't live your life
in the what ifs of it all. But it definitely
made me sad because I just felt like we were
two totally different people and I never thought we would
get to that place. Yeah, I'm happy for him. I
am so happy that he's so Bernie's doing these great

(01:04:41):
things with his life, and those are things that anyone
should be rooting for.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
I'm also proud of.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
Him for meeting with me, because as much as scary
as or as nerve wracking and yeah, scary as it
was for me to meet with him, I could only
imagine how he felt because we left on really bad
terms on his end, so I'm sure it was scarier
for him.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Does it make you feel like there's more healing for
you to do in regard to that relationship, like resentment, anger,
or that the forgiveness that you had is kind of
felt more concrete.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
I don't have any anger or resentment. I really really don't.
And I don't know if this is a bad or
a good thing. But me and all my siblings, my
mom could be on the fence with this one, but
definitely me and my siblings. When we will be mad
in the moment and curse someone out and YadA YadA,

(01:05:39):
you give us a year and we're like, we love
that person. What do you like, we don't ever hold
on to that bad stuff, and we don't know if
that's necessarily good, because you sometimes you need to remember
what people are capable of, but we're like, oh, but
they're great, and we'll recite these great things. But I
also think it is a beautif thing because I want

(01:06:01):
to remember the good. I know what you are capable of,
but I don't need to hold on to all of
the stuff that happened too, because I also feel like
that was their journey that was for them to experience
and go through and I was just a bystander. Yes
I went through it as well, but that journey is
really for that other person.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
I'm mind blown, honestly. I mean, it's just and I
believe you so deeply. I can I can feel it
just sitting with you in your presence. But it's so
hard to do what you're saying for just in general.
And people always say forgive and forget, but I think
for you it's forgiven. Don't forget.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
Yeah, no, forgive and don't forget. And I think so
much of it is empathy. I think that that's.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Huge, Chloe. It's huge, Like I want, I really hope
you I really hope you allowed that to sit with
you and take that incident of just how huge it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Is well because most people say, oh, because you're so week, No,
I think of it, and I think it is a strength.
Like whenever I remember when Tristan's mother passed away, and
Tristan has a brother that's disabled and his mother was
Amari is Tristan's brother's name. Tristan's mom was a Mari's

(01:07:18):
sole caretaker and she passed away. Tristan's house was under construction,
we had all these crazy rains, his roof caved in.
Tristan and I were not speaking at this time, like
there was not a chance I would speak to him.
And when Andrea passed away, I remember having a Mari

(01:07:38):
and Tristan move in with me, because yes, he could
have gone to a hotel, but he need Tristan and
Amari both needed to be not isolated. They both lost
their mother. Amari needs special living arrangements, caretakers. There's a
lot that comes with Amari. And so I was like,
live here, your kids are here. I got so much

(01:08:01):
crap for that, and I'm thinking, do you guys think
this is weak? I wasn't speaking to this man fifteen
minutes ago, and now I'm offering to give my house here,
and that to me takes so much more strength. And
also to walk around the house in front of my
kids and smile. And because I'm not fighting in front

(01:08:22):
of my kids, I don't do stuff like that. But
and with Lamar, like for Lamar, when his accident happened,
his overdose happened at a brothel, and you know it's
not like the like I showed up at the hospital
not because I'm weak, because I was strong and I
needed to take care of him because who else would have.

(01:08:42):
And I think people don't realize how much strength comes
in those things. And it doesn't mean I forget. It
just means there's something bigger here that's going to take precedence,
and I need my moral compass says I need to
show up and honor that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
And that's just mine.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Don't ever let anyone tell me it's weak. It's so
not weak. It's it's so powerfully strong. And you can
see it in your heart and just that a heart
full of compassion and empathy and context and understand, I
mean you did that for a Mari. Right. The other
situation you're going if you're not talking to someone and
you're going against all of this, but you're recognizing that
there's someone here who's vulnerable, unable to care for themselves, right, And.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Yeahstan could have got a hotel, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Yeah, yeah, but with Amari And then and I wanted
Tristan to be with his brother because I've been with
that family for years. But Amari knows he just lost
his mother. He needs to be around his brother. And
there were so many things. But you know, I think
I think where some people call it weakness, they don't
realize how much strength goes into putting your own personal

(01:09:50):
feelings aside for the betterment of somebody else.

Speaker 1 (01:09:53):
Yeah, and the biggest thing is you're you're better off
because of it internally, And I think that's ultimately what
no one sees apart from you, is you have to
go to when you're when your eyes closed at night
and you go to sleep, you go to sleep with
that feeling of what you did and how you felt right,
and if you were in bed that night going I
should have done this, I should have helped. I wish

(01:10:14):
I did this, But I'm going to look strong and
I don't want to be weak right, But then you're weak.
You've just you know, stayed up all night trying to
solve this issue in your head. Yeah, yeah, I know
it's huge. You brought up your beautiful children, who I
love seeing you with and the cutest and I was
just thinking that being a mom for you is just

(01:10:35):
such a it feels like such a natural role. As
you said earlier, it's my favorite thing, but it's your
favorite thing, and it comes across and seeing all the
kids together and everything. What do you hope as they
grow up do they learn about you and seeing you?
What's your hope for them to understand about their.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Mom Oh my gosh, I wish my phone's in the
other room. But I dropped her off at school today
and they each wrote something about someone, and True wrote,
I love my mommy because there's kindness in her soul.
And she's six, and I help her do her homework,
which both for sweet but the sentence there's kindness in

(01:11:14):
her soul. I was like, what a profound thing to
say and a deep thing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):
For a six year old.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
It was so beautiful and that makes me feel, you know,
like that I'm doing something right that they don't love
their mommy. Because she gives me presents or this or that.
Like I try to be as present with my children
as possible. We all have our phones, we all I'm

(01:11:40):
not saying I'm never on my phone, but when we
do have our time, I want to be on the
floor with them playing games. I'm not just going to
buy them all these games, and that's what they care about,
and they care about just the routine, the memories, the dinners,
the the little things that doesn't have to be all
day every day. I know everyone's working and everyone's juggling

(01:12:02):
a million things, but if you even only have thirty
minutes with your kids, make sure to put your phone
down for the thirty minutes because your kids will remember that,
and that thirty minutes you can build such a connection.
And me and my kids we talk and they take
baths together, both of them, and that's our time. And
how loving both my kids are with each other that

(01:12:23):
I take such pride in because I always hear stories
about you know, and I don't think I was that
nice to my brother when I was little.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
But I just want.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Them to know that this is a house of love,
and like for me, love is the foundation love and
faith is the foundation for everything.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
That's so beautiful. I mean it shows I mean, that
is such a profound thing for a six year old
to write.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
I got it this morth. I took a picture of
it this morning. I was like, I am, I was shocked.
I like, what a deep thing to say.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
Yeah, it's so sweet. We were talking about earlier societies,
expectations and pressures as you up, and as you said,
it's so much harder on children today. Yes, because of
the axis right before, you knew what your class was doing. Today,
you know what the whole world is doing right. There
are also kids that the whole world knows what they're
doing right. So it creates so many How do you
what does it look like when you're thinking about this

(01:13:17):
and you're figuring out how they navigate the world that
they're growing up and what are the thoughts that come
to your mind.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
We went to a restaurant the other night and the
waitress kept calling me by my name.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
She was like, Chloe, do you want another drink? Whatever?

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
And true was going, how does she know who you are?
And I go, oh, I just come here all the time,
which I don't. But they don't realize that we're on
TV or anything, like, they don't know the difference because
I'm not talking about it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:45):
And I just think that's that's impressive.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
I think that's so funny to me that she's like,
how does somebody.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
Know your name? Or she'll say why do they want
a picture with you? They go maybe she likes my hair?
Like I always try to say like something and brush
it off. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:13:59):
I don't want to make a big deal out of it,
you know, for my kids. True, she has an iPad
that they can watch shows or whatever when doing her hair,
but I have limited iPad time, and I tell her
she can't have a phone until she's twelve, and who
knows about keep that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:15):
But that's I don't think kids need it. Other than that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
I think they have these amazing phones that are just
for calling. Now I forget what they're called. Yeah, but
there's no internet access, and so I'm like, yes, if
you you know, you could have one of those phones,
but just to call me. But otherwise, why, I don't
want you looking at these things. They're not on the internet,
Like she's not on Instagram or TikTok or that kind

(01:14:41):
of stuff. I don't think that's necessary at this age.
I think it's really damaging. But I try to not
be on those things when I'm around them. Like we'll
film videos and I post them later, but we just
think we're making like dance videos. But I try not
to be on those things around them because they see that.
I picked up the phone when we were at a
red light and True was like, Mommy, no texting and driving.

(01:15:05):
And I was like, oh my gosh, she's right, I
was at a red light, but she They will also
remind you if you're doing anything illegal. They love to
yell at you. But I don't know what the world
looks like for that. I'm not someone that covers their
faces and does all that. I feel like I don't
want to not be out with my kids and or

(01:15:26):
feel like I have to hide them. I feel like
that would make my kids more anxious or ask more questions.
If my kids ever wanted to do something on TV
or anything like that, we would talk it through. But
I don't push it. I don't necessarily want them to,
but if they want to, then we can talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
Yeah, you were also saying that dating something that you'd
be open to at least one day in your forties
and then you.

Speaker 3 (01:15:51):
Said ten years.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Yeah, that's amazing. And I was thinking, like, this idea
of dating as a mom is hard, I'm sure, with
time and energy and fn everything else, Like, how does
that even fit into that wheelhouse as you're thinking about
it for all the moms out there who are thinking
about dating in their voys, which is very real.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
I don't know if I'm the best one to ask,
because I genuinely I have young My kids are younger yea,
and so I am loving that I get to have
so much time with them right now, and there's going
to be a time that no matter how much they
love me, they're not going to want to be with me,
you know. They're like, I want to be with my friends,
and yes, that's going to hurt, but I get it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
I was that kid.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
And right now I'm truly happy and I don't feel lonely.
I've like, I'm so fulfilled with work and my kids,
and once they're asleep, like I get a little bit
of a lone time, and then I go to sleep
and I start again.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Listening to I'm thinking, like there's such a just even
what you're saying and just being happy with it you
are happy with yourself. I wonder does the evolved version
of you that's been doing all this work. How do
you think about the right partner now versus how you
used to think about it and then you know the
quick before, Like, how is that impacted what you look for,

(01:17:11):
what you think about?

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
What I do love is that now I am forced
to take my time with someone. Where before I would
love a good love bombing. I'm like, you love me, okay,
like and I would just like roll with it, where
now I think we could, you know, mildly love bomb.
But I can't do much about it because I do
love the love.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
And the affirmations. I do love all that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
I'm not going to deny it. But I have to
move slow because of my children, and that is a
good thing for me. I am so used to my
routine right now. I'm such a structured person. I don't
do a lot of socializing unless it's with my same
group of people. And someone said to me, why don't
you throw like an event at your not an event,

(01:17:55):
but like I host a dinner at my house once
a month and have your friends invite another friend and
not even about for romantic reasons, but just for the fact,
because dating is a skill, or even socializing, Like my
social battery is empty all the time because I'm not
used to using it anymore. If it's not in the daytime,

(01:18:16):
I'm like, you want me up past nine? That's crazy?
Like to me, I'm like, how do you stay awake?
I have to get used to staying up a little later,
entertaining people hanging out. So I loved that idea of
like maybe once a month having a little dinner party
with my friends. If it's a group of people, I
don't mind if they are around my kids because it's

(01:18:38):
a group and just meeting people. It could be romantic
if someone brought someone that was like, okay, like this person,
or it could just be me, you know, sharpening the
tool of socializing with people again.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
But see, I love that idea because I think you've
just hit on something for a lot of people. I
think so many people almost we do the extreme. So
one extreme is we love bombing, we get love bombed,
we love it, it doesn't work out. But then the
other extreme is we get so comfortable being alone, yes,
that we don't even know how to engage with others.
And I think we kind of oscillate between these two

(01:19:13):
things where we just go back and forth as opposed
to I love what you're doing, which is, hey, let's
create an opportunity for a connection, whether it's romantic or not.
And I'm practicing my skill. It's not going to feel
like this really daunting thing now when I have a
conversation with someone, and it kind of keeps it fresh
for us. And I think that's so important for people
because we get so confident and comfortable being alone.

Speaker 3 (01:19:33):
Totally because that was me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
I have been alone for three years and I love it,
like I'm scared, yeah, and I'm like, okay, I have to.
I love this maybe too much where that worries me
because I could do this for another five years and
be so happy about it, but that's not normal, Like
I need to push myself and for people that if
you don't want to bring people to your home, you
guys could do this at a restaurant and have it

(01:19:57):
be a monthly thing or every other month thing, like
what what ever's workable for your schedule. I just loved
that lesson and I can't do it weekly like I
would love to in my brain, but that's too much
social battery.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
For me.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
So I'm like, I could do once a month where
I just have a little gathering at my house, and
it is a skill that I want to work on.

Speaker 4 (01:20:16):
Yeah, I love that. For you, that's such a great
it's brilliant. You might be invited to one. Oh, I'd
loved let me know when, I'd love that. I'd love that.
That'd be so much fun. No, that sounds beautiful. And
one thing I noticed about you throughout this whole conversation
that I admire so deeply is you just lean into discomfort.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
Just lean into it. Oh my god, that's so hard
to do.

Speaker 3 (01:20:39):
Wow, I didn't think of that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:40):
You just lean into it, whether it's the discomfort of forgiveness,
the discomfort of moving on, the discomfort of accepting where
you are, the discomfort of raising a family, the discomfort
of people seeing you as being weak, the discomfort of
doing external judgment. You just lean into it. Where does
that come from? Where did you see it? Where did
you experience it? Now that seeing ady supposed to.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
Be he Yeah, no, my wheels are turning right now.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:21:05):
I mean, I sound like a broken record, but so
much of it is my faith. But also be but
it is, But I was raised in such a faith
heavy household my mom and my dad. Faith is the
foundation of everything. And my dad we went to Sunday
school every Sunday, like everything was always about faith, Prayers

(01:21:27):
every night, prayers before food. And I think when you're
just raised that way, you learn to rely and lean
on your faith whenever you need to. And I'm someone
that it's so easy to rely on faith when you're
struggling and when something's bad. But I, yes, I go
to God when I'm struggling, but I go to God
so much more when I'm happy because I am so

(01:21:49):
grateful and I'm telling Him, thank you for bringing me
out of that spot. And I think so many people
forget to go to your higher power when you're in
the best of times, because that's when he wants to
acknowledge them too, not just when you need them that's easy,
like don't just call me for help, like I want
you to call me too when you're joyful and there's
so much greatness going on, and so I do the same.

(01:22:12):
And I think the more that you talk about greatness,
the more greatness then surrounds you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:16):
Yeah, I think faith is just such an underestimated part
of life.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
It's sad. I was watching the Academy Awards the other
night and I barely heard anybody thank God. And at
the end Adrian Brody he was I think one of
the last speeches, and the very first thing he said
was I just want to thank God.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
And I don't know that just me.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
I was like, it was sad to me that not
that many people lead with faith anymore, and not that
you have to, but it was a big thing that
I noticed.

Speaker 1 (01:22:46):
You get scared. Now there's like this worry, and I
feel like things are coming back around again. It almost
feels like there was a time when you almost couldn't
talk about it because you would be judged for they'd
be connotations or right, you know, things like that around it.
And I definitely felt that as well, where it's just
like okay, and I think now that's coming back around

(01:23:06):
where I think a lot of younger people in the
world today are turning towards spirituality and faith and for
that which you're seeing in trends and conversations where I
think people are having to look for higher purpose and
higher meaning now because it's really hard to find meaning
and purpose around us and I think what you talk
about it so beautifully is that it's a conversation. It's real,

(01:23:28):
it's natural, it's good and bad. It's not like this
ritualistic process. There's a genuine relationship that exists there, which
is what we're all looking for as well. Yeah. Yeah, Chloe,
it's been such a joy talking to you today. Honestly,
I love every moment I get to spend with you,
and you've just reminded us of how we can be

(01:23:50):
strong in tough times, how you can look back on
your life and move forward, how you can reflect and
still feel so much growth, and that we shouldn't be
scared to do the work, and that we can be scared,
but then we still have to follow through.

Speaker 3 (01:24:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:07):
And I'm so thankful that my community and I get
to learn from you and sit with you and really
dive into so much stuff that people have seen play
out for them publicly, but to really understand how you've
been processing it behind the scenes is really a gift.
So thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:24:24):
Well, thank you, Ja.

Speaker 2 (01:24:25):
It's so easy to talk to you, and I love
and adore you and being in this safe space, So
thank you for allowing me to be vulnerable and feel
so safe with you.

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
If you love this episode, you will also love my
interview with Kendall Jenna on setting boundaries to increase happiness
and healing.

Speaker 4 (01:24:45):
You're in a child You could be reading something that
someone is saying about you and being like.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
That is so unfair because that's not who I am
and that really gets to me sometimes.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like,
but I know who I am. Why does anything else matter?

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