Lori Gottlieb: Stop Mistaking Calm for Boring! (Follow THIS Simple Rule to Build REAL Love)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We feel like we have to earn our love, that
we're not enough just to be there, that we have
to somehow earn it through these external criteria. I have
to be so attractive and so funny and so entertaining,
and you do have to earn love by the way,
but you earn it by being relational.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm so excited to finally share the live interviews from
my very first podcast tour. This episode features my interview
with Lori Gottlieb at dar Constitution Hall in Washington, DC.
Wow Wow, Wow, everyone. I am so excited to be
here tonight at the Dark Constitution Hall in Washington, DC

(00:38):
with the one and only Laurie Gottlieb. Give it up
for Laurie, everyone, now. Laurie has been a dear friend
for the last few years and has been one of
our most popular on purpose guests. She's been on the
show at least three times, and we're going to have
her back on every year that she passed. We can

(01:00):
so Laurie. To do this in person when we're usually
in the studio is a real treat. So thank you
so much for flying out as well. I'm so grateful
that you're here.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Oh, I'm so happy to be here with this wonderful
crowd in DC.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I love it. So I want to dive straight in
with you, Laurie, because I really want to dive into
your mind. You have so many incredible insights. And something
we've been talking about tonight is this idea of being
worried about what people think of us. And the hardest
person's perception that we take the most seriously is our partners.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, and a.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Lot of us can sometimes feel we're performing in relationships
to try and get that validation, to try and get
that attention, to try and get that affection. Why do
so many of us feel that way? And what do
we do about it?

Speaker 3 (01:49):
It's interesting, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
I think in the beginning of a relationship, there's this
joke that you're not you, you're the ambassador of you.
So you know, we're all trying to put our best
foot forward, we're trying to impress the other person.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
But I think that once we're in the relationship, we.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
All have some part of us that worries that were
not lovable and maybe we're going through something hard, or
maybe we're not feeling great about ourselves. The other person
is going through something like they're having great success, and
we don't feel like we measure up. And so I
think what happens is we feel like we have to
earn our love, that we're not enough just to be there,

(02:25):
that we have to somehow earn it through these external criteria,
like I have to be so attractive and so funny
and so entertaining, and you know, all the things and
what you do have to earn love by the way,
but you earn it by being relational. So people want
to be in relationships with people who are relational. They

(02:47):
don't want to be in relationships with people who can't listen,
aren't emotionally generous, those kinds of things. But I think
that you know, when we think about performing in a relationship,
that has to do with I don't believe that you
will love me if I don't earn your love, And
that's a belief that we need to get rid of.

(03:07):
How do we do that, Well, I think you need
to understand that that's not the way that you earn love.
So the way you earn love, as I said, is
being relational. It's not about all of these other things
that we try to do, like I need to look
this way or be this way, the person cares about you,
they're with you, so.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
You need to show up.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
And I think that that's really the answer, is how
can you be in a relationship with somebody? You have
to show up otherwise if you're just in your head
the whole time, you're not even there.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
So many of the people that I speak to, and
I'm sure a lot of you can agree with this,
I think a lot of people feel that at one
point in their relationship, they find that their partner doesn't
want to open up, doesn't want to talk about their feelings,
isn't comfortable being vulnerable, and may actually be more closed off.
So I often find in relationship there's one person who

(03:58):
wants to talk about everything, and then the other person
doesn't want to talk about anything. And so even though
we want to be relational, you often find that one
person doesn't, whether they don't have the emotional capacity, whether
they don't feel they're ready, whether they don't even allow
themselves to think about these things. What do you do
when you're in a relationship? Can everyone relate to that?

(04:19):
By the way, this makes them noise? All right? When
you're with someone like that, what do you do? Where
do you start because you want to be with them.
They're not being relational, they don't want to listen to you,
they don't want to talk about their life. How do
you navigate that?

Speaker 1 (04:35):
First of all, I think it's really important that you
notice that at the beginning of a relationship. So many
people will say, you know, oh, this person doesn't really
open up or they're not really there, they're not really
being vulnerable with me. But that's okay, because that will come.
And then you keep going and you think, okay, it
will come later, but it's still not coming.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Why do we do that? Why do we ignore that?

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Because it's almost like attribution bias, you know, it's like
you want to attribute certain traits to the person that
they don't actually have. And that's why I always say,
at the beginning of a relationship, you want to bring
things up. People are afraid to for the reason that
we said, you know, we want to be the ambassador
of us at the beginning of the relationship. But actually

(05:19):
you want to bring things up early and often. And
that's because relationships are like cement. If you let the
cement dry, it's and and so you say, okay, this
is this will change later. Then you're gonna have to
get out of jackhammer dig everything up right.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
It's just it's really hard.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
But if there's still room, you can say to your partner, Hey,
I'm having trouble making contact with you. What's going on?
Is there something about the way that we're relating.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Why is it?

Speaker 4 (05:47):
You know?

Speaker 1 (05:47):
I really want to get to know you better, but
I'm having trouble. I'm really understanding what's going on inside.
And some of that is gendered. Okay, so some of
it is a lot of time men feel like if
I open up and be vulnerable, then I'm going to
be perceived as weak or I'm going to be perceived,

(06:07):
you know, differently. And there's some part of women that
we need to learn to provide space for men to
be vulnerable. Because what happens is when I'm doing couples therapy,
what I'll see is if it happens to be a
man and a woman, I will see that the woman
will say to her partner, I'm.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
So glad you're here.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
I really want to talk about all this stuff that
we can't talk about, and I want you to tell
me what's going on. I want to really know what's
going on inside of you, and then he opens up,
and then maybe he tears up, maybe he starts crying,
and she's like, WHOA right. So part of it is
I don't feel safe when you don't open up to me,

(06:48):
but I also in a weird way, and I can't
explain it.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
I don't feel safe when you're crying either.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
So we need to make sure that we are providing
the space for the partner who's not vulnulnerable to be vulnerable.
We can ask them what would be helpful, and I
think we just don't ask the questions, so then we say, well,
this person's not capable of it, they might be very
capable of it if you give them the space.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
We're all looking for that safety, yeah, and we're so
scared that if we showed our true selves then it
wouldn't be a safe space anymore, and that maybe that
part of us will be too hard to handle, too
hard to hold, too hard to embrace, and so we
just lock it up inside and we never share that,
we never show that. And the challenge that happens is

(07:35):
the other person thinks you don't have the capacity, and
actually you're thinking, well, I don't think you actually have
the capacity for me to be all of myself, And
it really does require a lot from people to allow
their partner to be all of themselves. How do we
communicate that we're ready to create a safe space for

(07:59):
that person, and how do we actually create the resilience
in ourselves to have the space for whatever may come.
Like I remember when I was talking a couple of
few years ago. It was similar to the gender play
that you mentioned, where she was like, I want you
to be really really open to the man, and he

(08:21):
was just like, well, if I tell you this, I'm
scared you won't like it. And then he opened up
about some of the challenges he'd had in his past,
and that really made her feel insecure about him, even
though it wasn't to do with them. So it can
be really complicated. How do we truly have emotional availability
to make space for what someone has to say for us?

Speaker 1 (08:41):
That's such an important point because it's not just saying
that you have the space, it's actually having the space.
And that's it's hard for us sometimes to separate out
who we are from who they are. So they're telling
you something about them, and they're asking you to sit
with them, they're inviting you to come closer, and we think, oh,
they're telling me something that feels threatening to me. So

(09:05):
when we talk about vulnerability, there's two kinds of vulnerability.
There's vulnerability of I'm going to tell you something about
my past that feels delicate to me. But what really
kind of triggers the partner sometimes is I'm going to
tell you something about you in relation to me that
is delicate, And so how can we be vulnerable about

(09:25):
something relational between us? And that's where couples get into
a lot of trouble because instead of hearing the other person,
they're getting defensive, they're feeling blamed, they're feeling criticized, when
really the invitation is please come closer. I trust you
and I feel close to you. So isn't it funny
how we hear the opposite message. We hear like, something's

(09:47):
wrong with you, you're damaged, I'm criticizing. That's what we're hearing.
But actually the invitation was the opposite. And that's because
in any moment when there are two people in conversation,
there are up to a dozen people in the room,
and by that I mean think about who's in the room,
like take attendance, have any of you. Ever been talking

(10:09):
to somebody else in the room and it feels like
it's not just the two of you, anybody where it
feels like, wow, something else. I don't know what just
happened with the other person. But that's not what I said.
That's not what I meant. That wasn't you.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
Know like that? What conversation are they in?

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Well, that is because you need to say, you know
who's in the room. A parent, a grandparent, their parents
because of the generational patterns that have gone down through
the generations. A teacher who told you that you would
never amount to something, the teacher who told you you
were fabulous, you know, and the first boyfriend or girlfriend

(10:47):
you had, Like, all those people are in the room,
but we don't know it.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
So you have to.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
If you're having a big reaction to something, we always
say if it's hysterical, it's historical. You are having a
reaction that feels outsized to what is actually being said.
It's like you went from zero to sixty in your body.
If it's hysterical, it's historical.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Who else? Who are these figures in the room?

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Take attendance, See who's in the room, and then who
do you want to invite in the room, and who's
not invited, and then tell the people very kindly, Hey mom,
hey dad, hey grandma, hey sibling, You're not invited into
this conversation. So you go, and I'm going to come
back into the conversation with this person that I'm talking to.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Wow, I love that. I love that. That's so powerful.
It resonates so strongly with so many interactions I can
think of. I wanted to ask you, Laurie, can you
truly love someone if you don't love yourself?

Speaker 1 (11:49):
I get asked that question all the time, and I
think the better question is, can you truly accept someone
if you don't accept yourself. One of the most loving
of things you can do to yourself and to other
people is acceptance. And acceptance doesn't mean settling or compromising.
It means embracing the fullness of the other person's humanity

(12:12):
and embracing the fullness of your humanity. So when people say,
you know, will you love me if right, it's do
you accept me fully?

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Is really the question.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
And I don't think that you can accept someone else
fully if you don't accept yourself fully, because you know,
we can't order up people A la carte. You know,
like we think we can just order up anything the
way we want. Nowadays, it's just like you can order online.
You can get anything. It's like, you know, what are
your special instructions? You know, leave this on the side.
You can't do that with people. They just come the

(12:44):
way they come. So you can't be like, yeah, I
love everything about you, but I want to leave like
your anxiety on the side. I want to leave your
neuroses on the side. I want to leave you know,
that history that you have with that other person on
the side. I wish that didn't happen.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
You can't do that.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
So they come fully form no substitutions. It's the way
it is on the menu. That's how they come. And
you do too, by the way, So we forget sometimes
we think, like I have to accept all these things
about the other person. What about the things that they're
accepting about you? Right, and if you were truly honest
about it, not like in a job interview when people say,

(13:22):
you know, what is your greatest weakness and you couch
it as a strength, like I work too hard, right,
you know, that's my greatest weakness is I'm just a
perfectionist and I work too hard.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
Well, no, that's not on your list.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
The list has to be something real, like I can
be really inflexible or I am still working on this
one thing and that can be challenging for my partner.
You know, whatever the things are, be honest. You know
what the things are that you have to accept, And
once you accept those in yourself, what happens is something

(13:54):
kind of miraculous. Not only do you feel more loved
because you are more accepted, become smaller. So those things
that feel very huge to you, once you've said you
know what, I'm not going to focus on them or
obsess about them anymore, all of a sudden, they don't
take up so much emotional real estate. It's like, I
just accept that about myself.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
Moving on.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, that's super powerful advice. There's a that that resonates
so much more the word acceptance versus love, because I
think love kind of gets convoluted when you're having that
conversation like do I love myself? Do they love me?
Do I love them? Whereas acceptance kind of gets to
the heart of it. And even as I was listening

(14:37):
to it, I was thinking about, like I was talking
to someone else yesterday about this, and I was talking
about me and my wife Radi, and I was explaining
that really acceptance is what helps our relationship work. We're
very different people, we have very different priorities, and we
have a lot of different things that we like and

(14:58):
engage with, but we respect that that's what makes the
other person attractive to us. Yes, So what I mean
by that is when Radi met me, I'm the same
person I've bin, which is a mission oriented. I'm very
focused on my purpose. It's my top priority in life
and I love it and thankfully knock on wood. In

(15:19):
the last twelve years, Radi's never said to me, you
work too much because she knows I love this. This
is who I am, It's who I always was. And
for Radi, her top fat priority is her family. She
loves them, a niece and a nephew, her grandma, her
mom and dad, like her sister like, that's her top
priority and so she loves visiting them in England and
going back even though we live in la And I
love that because I'm like, the reason why Rady is

(15:41):
so lovable is because of her loving relationship with her family,
and so it becomes an acceptance point of recognizing that
what it's almost like, you don't want to take away
the secret source that makes your partner your partner, whether
they're it's their ambition, whether it's the love for their family,
whatever it may be. And when you respect it and
accept it allows for things to blossom, whereas when you

(16:04):
try and take it away, you actually end up becoming
their kryptonite. Yeah, and you're making them weak or by
taking away the very thing that they value. Does that
make sense?

Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (16:13):
I think if relationships is almost like a relationship is
like a startup. It's like you're building, you're co founding
this this whatever you're building, and every single relationship it's
like a snowflake.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
It's unique.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
There's no other relationship out there like it. There will
be overlap, but the fact is these two individuals coming
together are creating something that no one else can create.
And so if you take away something from one of
the other people, that might be something that is really
adds to the richness.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
Of the relationship.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
You don't want to change, you know, the person that
you're with, You might there might change interactions between you
that's different. So if you want to change the way
that you relate to each other, but you don't want
to change the essence of the person.

Speaker 5 (17:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
I want to give another example of a weakness that
I had that I had to work on, which which
really helped me when it comes to this acceptance point.
At one point in our relationship, I was always like,
I was upset that Raley didn't organize more vacations and
I was the one doing all the organizing. Anyone can
relate if anyone's me in the relationship, Yeah, And so

(17:22):
I was upset about that, and I remember communicating that
to her and I said, look like I'd really appreciated
it if you also organize the vacations. And she said
something that was so honest to me, and it was
it really really resonated me. She goes, Jay, I would
happily organize any of our vacations, but the problem is
if I organize it, you'll have a million pieces of feedback.

(17:44):
But if you organized it, I'll just happily do whatever
you want to do. And it took me a second,
but she was spot on. I'm like a perfectionist. I
want it done this way I want it And I
realized I was like, actually, she's the sweetest person in
the world. Because when I organized a vacation, she's happy
to be a part of it and won't even ever

(18:04):
say to me like, oh I wish we did this,
or we should have done this, whereas I would be
like that the whole time. And it was such a
like holding up a mirror to me. And I realized
that I was the one discouraging her from taking responsibility
in a relationship because of how I would respond. And
that was a lot of self awareness that I didn't

(18:25):
have at that moment. And it was such a powerful
thing to learn to accept that even though I thought
she wasn't doing something for me, actually it was because
of how I was behaving.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
That happened so often.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
I remember when I was seeing this couple, she was saying,
you know, I want you to stop by on the
way home from the gym. I want you to stop
buy to the market, and I want you to get
these things. And they had a baby, and she wanted
him to get organic strawberries. I did not have organic
strawberries that Trader Joe's that day. So what did he do?

(18:57):
He got the regular strawberry.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Oh you know how this guy?

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Now, I want to say hashtag first world problems right.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
But at the.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
Same time, these are like the tiny what do people
fight about most? There are these tiny things that mean
something much bigger. So for her this meant you don't
pay attention to what's important for me and our baby, right.
And for him it was like, no, I did I
did exactly what you asked, and if I had done

(19:27):
it my way, I would have gone to the other
place and maybe they would have had organic strawberries. But
I was following your directions so I wouldn't get in trouble.
And then I got in trouble anyway. So these are
the kinds of things when we try to control our partners,
we're not giving them the autonomy to creatively do the
things that actually would enhance the relationship. And when you know,

(19:50):
when we look at what is the number one trade
there too there when we say, like what what makes
couples work? Okay, emotional stability, and that means like you
basically you know, have your working on your stuff. And
the second thing is flexibility. That you have to be flexible.

(20:11):
And so if you're the perfectionist in the relationship and
you are trying to control your partner, that's going to
make you very, very difficult to live with. And and
what will happen is you will start to lose control
because now that person doesn't want to pay attention, they
don't trust you, They're going to try to go around

(20:32):
you because they're you know, it's kind of like we
say that you need an aquarium in a relationship, also
with parenting. But an aquarium is like if it's a
fish bowl, it's too tight, it's like too constraint. If
it's an aquarium, there's no rules, nobody knows what's going on.
It doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel safe. An aquarium
is just right. Can you give the other person the
equivalent of an aquarium so they have room to swim,

(20:55):
but there are also certain agreed upon rules in the relationship?

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Got it, sense? I've been I've been down to ask
you this question, Laurie. You've you know, coached couples and
relationships for decades now, and you know been in therapy
with couples, individuals everything. I wanted to ask you, what
is the difference between compatibility and chemistry and which one
is more important?

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Let's do a poll.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Let's do it. That's the fun of getting to do
with all these things.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Who thinks that compatibility is more important than chemistry. Make
some noise, okay, And and now the chemistry folks, make
some noise, all right, All right, there's there's a good
there's a good amount for each But here's the answer
that I would give. And this is from seeing couples

(21:46):
for all of these years, and I will say that
I think that the most important.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
Form of chemistry is compatibility. Wow, we're all right?

Speaker 1 (21:57):
And what I mean by that, so fatibility, is do
we vibe? Do we have the same ideas about how
we like to have fun? Do we have the same
ideas about our goals for ourselves and for our relationship?

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Do we bring out the best in each other?

Speaker 1 (22:16):
That's like red hot chemistry, right, But it's compatibility too.
Some people would say the chemistry is I always feel
on edge with this person, but wow, that person's so hot. Right, Well,
the other person can be really hot. That's part of
your compatibility too. But you need the other things. If
you bring out the best in each other. That is

(22:37):
chemistry and compatibility all wrapped in one.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, I agree. I love that an so yeah, go
give it up. There's you reminded me of this amazing
study that I read that I loved, which was talking
about how when you meet someone and you feel the
spot or the chemistry, really what it is is nzime
and excitement at the same time. So it's like excitement

(23:04):
and stress. I'll give you an example. The excitement is,
oh my gosh, they're heart right. The stress is do
they think I'm hot? Right? The excitement is, oh my gosh,
I've got their number. I'm going to text them. The
stress is are they going to text me back? The
excitement is I thought we had a great date. The
stress is do they think we had a great date?

(23:26):
And so that's what chemistry chemically actually is. It's stress
and excitement. Now, what's really interesting what this study said
is that over time, when you get to know someone
and you've spent time together, your stress goes down because
now you're used to being around them. You know they
like you, you know they like being around you, you

(23:46):
know they're going to text you back. And so because
the stress goes down, excitement kind of starts to diminish,
and you now think it's boredom when actually it's peace. Right.
So it's this really idea that compatibility is boring and
chemistry is exciting, but really real great compatibility is a

(24:09):
sense of peace that we actually feel peaceful around each
other and now don't feel on edge around you, and
I don't have to worry about whether you like me.
And that's why it's so interesting how so many relationships
go through this border mirror when you've got to actually
check in with yourself and say, are we bored or
have I just lost the stress of them liking me

(24:29):
and texting me back and messaging me right.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
But what you get instead is you get the dopamine
of this person loves me right, Like there's something all
of the people who are dealing with what you said
of you know, the date went well? Did they think
the date went well? Did you know I got their numbers?
Are they going to call me back? You know all
of that? That is so when people are going through that,
you know what they say in therapy, when they tell
you what they're really feeling, they say, all I want

(24:54):
is to feel safe, I want peace, I want all
of that, right. I just want to feel good and
I know that the person likes me and I want
to have fun with them. That's what they want. And
then when they have that, they say, oh no, I
want the other thing.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
I want that other thing.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
At the beginning, you weren't happy at the beginning, you
were stressed out all the time. You were like, is
the person gonna call? What's gonna happen? What did it
mean that the person waited this many hours between the
text and the time. That right, Nobody enjoys that they
think they did in retrospect, but at the time when
they're reporting it, they're like, I hate this.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, that's so true, that's so true. We forget very
quickly how anxious and nervous and stressed we were at
the start when we were dating someone. Yeah, and what
that looked like before we go onto something really exciting

(25:59):
and interesting. I want to do the audience. I wanted
to ask you one more question, which is this idea
of should couples in therapy also be going to individual therapy?
And how do you you happy? I ask that question, Yeah,
how do you figure that out?

Speaker 4 (26:13):
Like?

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Do you got individual therapy? Do you also do couples therapy?
Do you only do couples therapy?

Speaker 5 (26:17):
Like?

Speaker 2 (26:17):
How do you figure that out?

Speaker 1 (26:19):
I think that in a lot of ways, couple's therapy
is individual therapy, and at least the way that I
do it, and what I do is before people come
into therapy, I say to each person separately, if you
are going to be the best version of yourself in
this relationship, regardless of what the other person does, what
do you want to work on? What is one thing

(26:40):
that you want to work on? And I ask each
of them that they don't tell each other what it is.
It just that's their that's their sort of individual goal
in the therapy. And so no matter what happens in
the therapy, the whole time they are working on, each
of them is working on that one goal. And guess
what happens as each person is kind of doing their
individual work. You don't change another person, but you influence

(27:04):
another person. So now, oh, I am being more aware
of this now and look at the effect it's having
on the other person.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
It's a virtuous cycle.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
So instead of like the vicious cycle of well, we're
doing this dance and what I do upsets this person
and what they do upsets me, It's like I'm doing
something different and they're responding well to it. And now
they're responding well to it, and they're responding well to it.
It keeps going back and forth. And I think that's
so interesting because you know, often in a relationship, we
have this way of thinking, like if I snap at you,

(27:36):
it's because I was tired and my boss was really demanding. Today,
if you snap at me, it's because you're disrespectful and
you don't.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Care about me, right, that's really yeah. So what happened
is we have.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Context because we know in our own mind why we
did what we did, and we think we know why
the other person did what they did, but we have
zero context for it.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
We don't know, and.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Because we feel we'll hurt by it, we don't ask.
So I think it's really important to consider that we
don't know the whole story. And so when you're doing
couple's therapy, you're working with the individuals at the same time.
You can't just work with a couple, and you can't
just work with like, here's our problem. It's like, here's

(28:22):
my stuff, here's my history, here's like all the twelve
people I'm bringing in the room, here's you your stuff,
your history, the twelve people you're bringing in the room.
Let's disinvite the people who don't need to be here.
Let's talk about what is going on underneath the problem
of who's doing the laundry?

Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, well said Well, said Laurie. Amazing. All right, well,
you know the joy of doing this live with all
of you usually we're in a studio. The joy of
doing this live. First of all, I just want to say,
how's this means to me? Because I absolutely love this.
I wish we could do every podcast like this. It's
so fun to see what resonates with you and what
connects with you and what you relate to. But I

(28:59):
just want to get a short of hands. How many
couples do we have in the house? And I raise
your hand if you're with your partner tonight. Okay, amazing,
quite if we I love that. Now, look, every every couple,
as I was sharing with me and Raley too, every
couple goes through disagreements and things like that. I want
to give someone the opportunity to have and do an
exercise with Laurie on stage right now. So if you

(29:23):
have any couples that would love to join us on stage,
raised hands, I'm gonna come out and talk to you.
Raise your hands.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
Hello. This is gonna be fun.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Hi, Hi, It's gonna be super fun.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
All right?

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Okay, Well, First of all, thank you, guys.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
You're not the relationship.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
I'm just saying here, we might we might bring we
might bring Jay in for some mediation.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
So, okay, tell us your names.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
I'm Stephanie, Stephanie, Nico, Nico. Okay.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
So how are you guys at? Acting? Not very good? Okay,
Well we're going to do our best. He's terrified.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
Okay, I'm pretty good.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
All right.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
So I'm casting a play and you're playing Nico.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
You're playing Stephanie.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Nico.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Okay, what is what is this person's name?

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Right here?

Speaker 3 (30:45):
Everybody say it Nico, I'm Nico.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Good.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
What is this person's name over here?

Speaker 2 (30:50):
See?

Speaker 1 (30:51):
All right? So I want you guys to hold with
the non Mike hand hold hands and we do this
a lot in couples there because your nervous system calms down.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
It keeps you connected.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
And uh, Nico, can you tell me what the issue
is with Stephanie? And when I say with the issues,
not just what the issue is, but what does it
make you feel?

Speaker 3 (31:17):
What comes up for you?

Speaker 6 (31:19):
I guess just like worry and stress, just overwhelm of emotions.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, but what's the issue? What is the issue that
you guys are disagreeing about.

Speaker 6 (31:29):
I guess the worthy of yourself?

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Meaning, so what happens between the two of you when
you're disagreeing about I guess I just don't.

Speaker 6 (31:43):
Like sometimes feel like I level up to the expectation
of how I should be.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Oh, how Stephanie wants you to be? Tell me more
about what you think Stephanie. What Stephanie wants from you?
What does Stephanie want you to be like?

Speaker 6 (31:58):
I guess just like the best they can do in
any aspect, like as a mom, as a partner, just
to be able to be present for the other person.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
So Stephanie wants you to be a good mom. You're
You're Nico, right, So, so you're your Nico. It's okay,
it's hard to get into the mindset of your Nico. Okay, okay,
So and Stephanie and Stephanie is not listening to this, Okay.

(32:34):
So you're your Nico and you're telling me what you
feel like you can't tell Stephanie about how does she
make you feel about whether you're.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
Living up to her expectations?

Speaker 7 (32:49):
Confused?

Speaker 6 (32:51):
Yeah, so this is as So I'm Nico.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
I'm communicating.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
So you're your NiCoT, and what is going on with
you and Stephanie?

Speaker 3 (33:03):
What is? What is? What are you feeling like?

Speaker 4 (33:06):
What?

Speaker 6 (33:08):
I guess just like the overwhelm of supporting for the
family and letting Stephanie know that I am doing my
best to take care of myself and do but I
also need to focus on like my mental health.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
And what what does it feel like when you feel
like Stephanie isn't uh, doesn't feel like you're doing your best?

Speaker 6 (33:38):
I guess just like annoyance that they're not understanding of
what I'm feeling.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
What does Stephanie not understand.

Speaker 6 (33:51):
That I also need to have me time?

Speaker 7 (33:56):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (33:57):
And what happens?

Speaker 1 (33:59):
Why do you think Stephane has trouble giving you the
space to have me time?

Speaker 6 (34:06):
I think she also wants me time and that understanding
that there is a balance and if you get this,
I have to have.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
That too, Okay.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
So it has to be sort of equalized in Stephanie's mind,
but not in your mind?

Speaker 8 (34:22):
Right?

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Okay, All right, Stephanie, what's going on for you?

Speaker 8 (34:29):
So?

Speaker 7 (34:31):
Right?

Speaker 4 (34:31):
I can see why this is hard to switching to
that mindset.

Speaker 7 (34:38):
Yeah, So you know, Nico works from home and he.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
Goes to his computer early in the morning, and I
have to, you know, obviously help out with Natalia or
baby girl, and you know, I might see him that
he might go for a run in the middle of
the day and there's something that you know, and I
think that Nico does that because he just wants to

(35:05):
clear his mind and he wants to provide for his family.
But you know, maybe if I do something that's not
necessarily me being glued to my desk, then Stephanie might.

Speaker 7 (35:17):
Er, Nico, You're you are?

Speaker 2 (35:22):
You are? You are?

Speaker 4 (35:23):
I get upset if maybe I don't see Nico, if
he's not one hundred percent working at his desk, and
he might be doing something that you know, he might
be dedicating time for him and I'm not getting that,
and I'm you know, I also want to be doing
my things and and I'm not able to do that,
and I'm jealous that maybe Nico is is doing that.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
You know why you guys are having so much trouble
remembering who the other person is because you have the
exact same complaint that you both feel like the other
person doesn't give you enough me time and the other
person doesn't understand why you need it.

Speaker 4 (36:05):
Right.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
So this is interesting because Normally, when I do this
with couples, one person has one perspective on something. The
other person has a completely different perspective on it.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
You guys literally have the same complaint.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
So what I want you to do is I want
you to imagine, while you're in your roles, how you
come across to the other person. So I'm going to
bring you back to your actual selves. So you're Stephanie
your Nico. Okay, I want you to act out Stephanie
how you think and make it really big and make

(36:41):
it really you know, like like exaggerated, how you come
across to Nico when you're frustrated with him and you
want me time or you don't like him having meat time.
I feel like I sometimes act like a child's well
let's see it, let's see it actually actually, oh, go
for it.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
And by the way, this is we all. We all
have these moments. They're normally not on a stage.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
So please know that every single person in this audience
has done this just in the privacy of their own home.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
Or on my couch.

Speaker 6 (37:17):
Goodness, gracious, baby, you don't listen. I need to just
do me have a moment for myself. Stop thinking about yourself.

Speaker 7 (37:25):
And just listen, baby, I have a lot.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
Okay, I don't know what don't I'm not just gonna respond.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
I'm ready.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
That was a great performance.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Okay, Nico, tell Stephanie what it feels like when she does.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
That about you.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Oh, you're only going to talk about you. You're not
gonna say you this, or you gonna you're gonna talk
about yourself.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
I feel yeah, maybe you know how I like to
be approached. I'm very just big on you know, thinking
before you say something.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
No, no, you're telling her or you're telling me.

Speaker 7 (38:04):
I don't like triggering words. I don't like it when I'm.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Going to give you, I'm gonna give you some like
a multiple choice okay, okay, because we don't know we
need like it's almost like you know, we don't We
didn't get a lot of training on like what are
the feelings right? We know like mad, sad, happy, but
we don't know anything in between. It's like we know
the primary colors, but we don't know the shades. What
I saw here was I feel angry, I feel shame.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
Does that resonate?

Speaker 7 (38:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Okay, tell her about the shame.

Speaker 7 (38:37):
It's like how I'm trying to fix.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
This, No, just tell her what the shame is like,
I feel.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
How it feels when you feel when she says that
to you and she acts in that way to you.
How does that shame feel to you?

Speaker 4 (38:49):
Yeah, I just I feel like I'm trying to juggle
a lot and it doesn't make me feel like hurt
or my my point of view is being to you know,
I just wish that it was more of a conversation
instead of like an attack.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
I want to go back to the shame only because
I think that that's sort of the core of.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
What does it mean if.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
You disappoint her? So she's disappointed by you, rightly or wrongly.
I'm not going to get into that, although I do
have an opinion about it. But she's disappointed and she's saying,
I want to feel safe. I want you to provide,
I want you to use your time well, I want

(39:36):
you to be productive, and you feel like.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
If I don't do that for.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Her, then I feel bad about myself. Tell her about
the part that it makes you feel bad about yourself.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
Oh okay, yeah, you know, I'm very supportive of you,
and I do feel bad when I see you stressed
out in those situations. And I do want to make
sure that you get as much time as possible.

Speaker 7 (40:06):
It's just hard for me to But.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
You're talking about her, and I want you to talk
about you, and this is really hard.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
But what is it?

Speaker 1 (40:14):
What happens for you when you feel ashamed like I'm
not I can't measure up to what you want.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
So I'm going to shut down.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
I'm going to stop listening to you.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
What happens to you?

Speaker 7 (40:29):
I do shut down.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
I guess it's it's hard sometimes to have that conversation
and listen and I just, yeah, shut down.

Speaker 7 (40:41):
I don't, I don't.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
Can you act out for her?

Speaker 1 (40:45):
What a different approach would be for her to say
what she wants to say?

Speaker 3 (40:49):
But it doesn't look like the way she approaches you.

Speaker 7 (40:56):
How I would want her to.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah, what would you like her to say to you instead?

Speaker 7 (41:01):
Baby? Do you think I can, you know, between one
and two have some me time?

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Well, when she's feeling like there's a there's a contest
between who gets more meat time?

Speaker 3 (41:13):
What would you like her to say to you instead?

Speaker 7 (41:22):
You know, baby, I this I need me time to
focus on myself.

Speaker 4 (41:26):
This really helps me as a person and and and
just mentally and I think it would help our relationship
more if you know, maybe I just had an hour
here too to meditate and listen to my j Shatty
podcast and time all the time?

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Okay, and and and so I want you to say
that to him right now. That's what he wants you
to say to him. Go ahead and say it.

Speaker 6 (41:48):
So, Baby, I think I need this one, the two
hours to really avoid.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
I don't think he said two.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
I don't think he said I said two.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
I'm saying three now. I think he said one. And
that was jerious.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
I want.

Speaker 6 (42:03):
So I need this hour to focus on myself and
my mental health and then make me, you know, listen
to the Machi sty podcast.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
And and the question might be, is that okay?

Speaker 5 (42:20):
Is that okay?

Speaker 3 (42:21):
And what can we do for you to have that?
So I'm adding to that, is that okay? And what
can I do it's in order for that to happen?

Speaker 1 (42:32):
What does that feel like to you when she says that,
does it feel different from how it normally goes.

Speaker 7 (42:38):
A little bit? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (42:40):
Yeah, I'm also on a schedule right there's there's a
lot of things that I'm trying to manage. And when
it's just like hey, like, I need an hour here,
and I'm just like, well, I want to give it
to you, but I don't, you know, I have a
meeting at nine and then I have to get work
done from the next three hours, and then I you know,
I'm more of like on a.

Speaker 7 (43:00):
Schedule, and it's tough for me to.

Speaker 4 (43:03):
Maybe just step away from my desk or just do
something just randomly in the day of like an hour of.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
Okay, so what you're requesting.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
The two things I want you to take away from
this one is how does the approach differ? It helped
a little bit, you said, and then also what are
some of the practical parts of this, Like, for example,
when you approach me, I can't just sarily just drop
everything on a dime. So you're smiling because it sounds
like that's what you've asked been asking for, right, yeah, Okay,

(43:34):
so you can understand that he's trying and he wants
you to have me time and he needs some meat time.
But what's not being taken to account is he can't
just do it spontaneously like that.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
So can you find a way too.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
So that he doesn't then argue back, well, I can't
and this and that, and then you feel shut down,
and then he feels shut down, and then it's like
we didn't even do this interaction. So yeah, you're going
to ask differently, and you're going to make sure that
you ask maybe the night before, like, hey, here's what
I'm thinking.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Does this work?

Speaker 1 (44:10):
And I want you guys to see what that would
be like. And I want you to see what happens
when it's a request and not a demand, because when
you acted it out, it was a demand. When you
did what he said might work better and we're slightly better,
that was a request.

Speaker 3 (44:23):
So here's one example.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Normally people have very different ideas about things and it
really helps them. These two have exactly the same issue.
So this exercise was a little bit different, but I
hope these two takeaways are going to be helpful. All right,
thank you guys for coming up. How do you guys
think they did it?

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Everyone very very very brave to come and do that
in front of two thousand and five un event Yes,
it takes a lot. And as you can see, I
love what Laurie was doing because it really shows us
like we don't get to sit inside of these exercises.
We only get to sit inside of our own and

(45:04):
when you're inside someone else's therapy exercise, you start to
recognize just how we don't have the emotional vocabulary, we
don't have the communication skills, and it's not our fault.
It's because no one's ever taught us then, and so
a lot of us are learning and so having that
bit of grace when we're with our partners to recognize

(45:27):
that we can't expect people to have these emotional skills.
We often expect people, Lorrie to just get us, but
we expect our partners to just get us, like it's
common sense, you should get it, and we don't.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Well, it's so interesting because we believe that that's the.

Speaker 3 (45:44):
True test of love, like do you just get me?

Speaker 1 (45:47):
And it's interesting because you think when we're babies, we
don't have words and the only way that we can
communicate is by crying, and the parents are dancing around like,
oh my gosh, is the Are you hungry?

Speaker 3 (45:58):
Are you cold? Are you hot?

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Are you tired? Do you need a diaper change? Right,
we don't know what it means. But then we grow
up and we expect our partner to like solve the
problem in the same way, except now we do have words,
and we can use those words, but our first loving
experience was all about how much was my parent or
caregiver whoever able to guess? Like, we want our partners

(46:20):
to do what I needed in that moment?

Speaker 2 (46:23):
Wow, wow wow?

Speaker 1 (46:26):
And now and now what we have instead is so
then we have words and we can say, hey, I'm hot,
i'm cold, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, i'm tired, right, and
we learn how to do that somehow with our partners,
we think I don't need to tell them that, they
should just know because it's our early experience of loving,
it's our earliest is of being loved. And so now

(46:47):
what we have instead is we need to learn the
operating instructions of our partner. So everybody comes with you
know their history, the things that work well with them, don't.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Push this button? Do push this button more?

Speaker 5 (47:00):
Right?

Speaker 1 (47:00):
With our partners. We all know that about our partners.
But then we think, well, they should just guess. Why
don't you just tell them so you can get what
you want?

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Right?

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Why do we make it so hard on our partner?
Just tell them these are my operating instructions, what are yours?

Speaker 2 (47:20):
I want to give a big shout out Tanika and
Stephanie having the courage to do that. And I want
to take it out to all of you. I want
to take some of your questions. Me and Laurie are
both here. Would love to answer your questions. Page where
are you? Paige? There? You are, Page from my team.
Give Paige around the blows everyone, please, Page from my
team is going to come around and hand you the

(47:41):
mic if you have a question, So raise your hand
if you have a question, and Page will come and
find you. Hi. He Hi, my name I'm Krea Ria.

(48:06):
Nice to meet you. What's your question?

Speaker 9 (48:09):
My question is more of a scenario. If you were
going somewhere with your partner and let's say you had
a disagreement and there was something that really bothered you.
What's the best way to handle that situation so that
you're happy and your partner's happy. And do you speak
when you're upset or do you wait? And how should

(48:31):
you communicate that? What's the best way to communicate that.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
I feel like when we something happens, we feel like
we have to resolve this right now. And if we
don't resolve it right now, it's going to live with
us all night and it's going to ruin our time.
But you're so worked up about it that you haven't
thought about it, you haven't processed it. You aren't giving

(48:54):
the other person grace at this moment. So that is
not the time to try to resolve it. What you
need in that moment is to say to each other, Hey,
we really care about each other. We're having this disagreement.
We know we are confident and you have to have
confidence that we know how to resolve things.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
We're going to resolve this later. Let's go have a
good time.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
And people think I can't do that because I'm going
to be thinking about it the whole time. Well, that's
your choice, but I want to say it's a choice.
It is a very volitional choice. People say I can't
help what I think about. Yes, you can. So a
lot of times in relationships, you have lots of choices
that you can make.

Speaker 3 (49:37):
You choose not to make them.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, well said, and Pria, I would say that. You know,
for me, there's two things that come to mind. One
thing is what Laurie's saying. This idea that sometimes I'll
get some friends call me in a panic, like Jay,
I've got an issue, and maybe I'm on stage, when
I'm getting in, I'll be like, call me back in
three days. And the reason why I say that sometimes
is because unless it's life or death, usually in three

(50:01):
days when I mess with them and go, hey, what
about that issue, They're like, n it's all right now. Yeah,
you know it was just this panic moment, And so
I think there is something to be said for that.
For me and Raddi, I talk a lot about in
my book Eight Rules of Love that I wrote, I
talk a lot about fight styles, and I realized it
took me a while to realize that me and Raddi
had different fight styles. So my fight style is the venor,

(50:24):
the talker, the fixer, like I want to fix it now,
so if I'm on that day, I want to fix
it right now. And Radi's is the hider. She wants
to think about it, reflect, introspect, and have time. So
I want to talk about it right now. She wants
to talk about it in three days. And what we
had to realize was, like Lourie said, have the confidence
to say, Okay, we're gonna meet in the middle, we'll

(50:45):
talk about it tomorrow. Right, We're gonna go on and
have that great time. We're gonna meet in the middle.
I want to talk about it now, you need three
days to process. In one and a half days, we'll
take a look at it, because right now it's not
worth our time. You're not even ready. And actually, even
though I want to fix it now, I actually don't
know enough to do that. And so recognizing the different
ways in which you approach conflict, because what I used

(51:07):
to think before is well, if you want to talk
about it in three days, that means you don't care
as much as I do, which isn't true. She's actually saying, well,
the fact you want to talk about it now means
you don't care as much as I do, because I
want time to think about it. So you've got to
build up that understanding of the way you both respond
to conflict, and taking Lorrie's advice, recognize that now's not
the time or the place, and we're probably going to

(51:29):
be in a better mindset if we let this go
and deal with it at a proper time and place.
So I love Lory's.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Advice, right, And also you have to realize that the
connection is not severed. Just because you have a disagreement
doesn't mean that the connection has been damaged in any way.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
People are going to have disagreements all the time.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
And it's kind of like when you start a new
exercise and you start building up muscle. You need to
build up the muscle of we know how to resolve
differences between us, and so the more you do it,
so the first time it might be a little shape,
the second time it still might be a little shaky.
But every time you learn something new about how we
resolve differences together, and then when you resolve differences all

(52:08):
the time, it's like, oh, yeah, we had a difference,
We're gonna still have a good night because our connection
is strong. We're confident we can resolve it later.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Thanks for you. I hope that helps. Thank you so
much for your question. Hey man, I wants your.

Speaker 5 (52:24):
Name jab Snail. My wife's not here today, but I
came with my sister.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
But then you can tell us everything exactly.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
So he's not here, so it's a no.

Speaker 5 (52:35):
But my question is like, sometimes you know, we we
don't communicate, Like we're just sitting there and I'm going
to give a scenario, but you know, sometimes I'm really
trying hard to understand, you know, but there's no communication
And the biggest thing that I struggle with is, you know,

(52:57):
the love language is gifting, right, like what you know,
what to get her on her birthday or what to
get her for you know, a certain event, and then
you spend so much time and then you get her
something and you see the reaction on the face. And
it's not always perfect, so you know, but sometimes I
hit it right. It's like, you know, sometimes I get

(53:21):
it and sometimes I do, But what do you do
to kind of really understand what is it that that
other person wants?

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Right?

Speaker 7 (53:28):
And yeah, that's my question.

Speaker 5 (53:30):
Thank you know, my wife's probably going to watch this
video my sister took, but yeah, thanks for that question.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
So this goes back to the mind reading that we
were talking about that people think somehow, you know, if
you loved me that much, you would know what gift
I want and you would not get it wrong. But
I think there's something so beautiful to kind of turn
it around and kind of turn it on its side,
is to say, I love you so much that it
hurts me to disappoint you. And so if you could

(54:01):
give me a list of like five things, and I
will surprise you with the one with one of them,
but at least now I have some idea of you
want all of these things, you will be happy with
all of them, and I can show my love by
getting you exactly what you want. You won't know which
one it is, so it's still kind of a surprise.

(54:22):
But I think that we have to understand that there's
different ways to love people, and one way to love
someone is to say, making you happy is my way
of loving you.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
So can you help me with that?

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah? I completely agree. I think that. So when me
and Radley first started daying, my love language was gifts
as and I like receiving gifts, but I like surprises,
And this all goes back to childhood my mom. We
don't have a lot growing up, but my mom would
surprise me with the one gift I always wanted on
my birthday, right, and it could be the smallest thing,
but I remember it so well. So when I first

(54:58):
started dying, Radley and I had and really thought that
through and I wasn't aware of that I wanted her
to surprise me with a gift, so she kind of
knew that I wanted a tablet, right, and my birthday
came around this tablet sized box was there it was
wrapped up in gift wrapping whatever. I open it up,
I take it out. It's a tablet box. It's an Asis.

(55:23):
What the hell is an ass? Right? And I'm mortified.
I'm like, I'm like, what's an asis?

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Like?

Speaker 2 (55:31):
I was trying to read it. I'm like, am I
even reading it around? Is it sousa? Is it ass?
Is it like? And I'm like, tablets are iPads? Right, Like,
there's an iPad. There's nothing like, there's nothing else. And
so I am mortified that she got me an ass
And I remember talking to her about this and then
she was like she was like, yeah, but I spoke
to my dad and my brother in law, and you know,

(55:51):
they were telling me Asis is the best deal and
the speck is really good. And I'm like, my mom
doesn't care about what the best deal is. I just
want the best tablet. And so I've been there. I
know what that feels like. And gifting in our relationship
was a long time conversation and it really did take
that where it got to a point where I was like,
I'm setting up the person I love for failure. I'm

(56:15):
literally setting them up for failure by wanting them to guess,
wanting them to get it right, wanting them to know
the perfect thing, I'm setting them up for failure. And
guess what, no one wants to feel like a failure
in a relationship. And so when you can openly say
that to someone too, jelluk and saying, hey, look like
what Laurie was saying, like, I don't want to feel

(56:36):
like a failure. Like I love you, I want you
to have the best birthday ever, but I need you
to help me understand what that looks like for you
and what that means. And yes, I hope that one
day I will be able to understand because we've talked
about it so much, but without the communication and without that,
I just won't know, right, I just won't know. And
so it's hard in your situation because you're on the

(56:58):
receiving and you're the ruddy the relationship. But that's where
we got to in the end, and I realized, and
obviously over time I realized how wrong I was for
my approach and my perspective on it. And it made
me realize how much our childhood, as Laurie was saying earlier,
has programmed us to believe what a perfect birthday is

(57:20):
now I've changed my views on what a perfect birthday
is because of that negative experience, because of making the
person I love feel that way, And so I hope
that stays with you to take Laurie's advice to really
communicate that, to make that point that, hey, I want
you to have the best birthday. I don't want to
let you down. I don't want to feel like a failure.
I want you to have something amazing. But I need
your help because I can't read minds. I wish I could,

(57:44):
but I can't, and no one else can, by the way,
not even Rather he can. And you know Jay said that,
you know he's kind of like you, So hopefully that
helps too.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
And I think that childhood stuff is so important because
we think, you know, if you were someone who got
everything your mom did it perfectly, then you think, well,
that's what that's what feeling special is like. So if
she doesn't do that, then she doesn't think I'm special,
Or if you didn't get the gifts that you wanted,
because you think my parents didn't really know me, like
I was an artist and they got me like a
baseball bat. You know, it's like what, like do you

(58:14):
even know me, that's what you then you project that
onto your partner. It's not that your partner doesn't know you,
but you know the fine tuning of it.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
Sometimes they need some help.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Absolutely, And I realized I did tell my mom. She
was just sneaky at finding out. Yeah, Like it's not
like she knew I would tell it. I was like,
I want to power range you.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
It was very that sneaky day. That's really sneaky. I
want a power ranger.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
But it's like you did, like they didn't read your
mind either, Like right, find out in a multitude of ways.
All right, next question.

Speaker 8 (58:43):
I actually had to write mine down because I thought
I was gonna get nervous.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Okay, so my.

Speaker 8 (58:50):
Question is am I being selfish or showing narcissistic traits
for needing more time and attention in a relationship? Or
is it a valid or is it valid to simply
express what I needed to feel connected and valued.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
So if you were to ask Instagram this question, you
guys all know what the answer on Instagram is. Right, No,
you're not a narcissist. You should have all the time
and attention that you need. Right, that's the Instagram answer.
I have a slightly more nuanced answer, And I think

(59:29):
that we have to really understand that being in a
relationship is relational, that the person that you're with has
needs too, and so when you when they when for
them it feels too demanding, the question is are.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
They getting their needs met too?

Speaker 1 (59:48):
Because usually when they think the other person's too demanding,
it means that there's not enough room for both of
you in the relationship. So that's really your guide, like
do both of you feel like you're getting your needs met?
Both of you feel like there's enough room there, so
it's not just a cut and dry you know, well,
they should, of course, all of my needs should be
met for how much time I want to spend with

(01:00:09):
them or write it's a conversation and it evolves.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
I think it comes down to a few things. The
first thing I'd say is are you clear about what
that means? Like, for example, if it's unclear, like I
wish that person would message me all day, call me
twice a day, be there for me every evening. You know,

(01:00:34):
it's like that can be a lot and it may
not be clear. Or as if it's clear, like hey,
I just want to spend two hours with you on
a Saturday afternoon and have it just be us right,
it's really clear, it's really specific, it's really organized, or
is it like, hey, I just need you all the time.
And so much of this comes down to our attachment
styles and and how the other person makes us feel
as well. I think the challenge we have in this

(01:00:55):
in your question is we don't know enough about the
other person in the world relationship. And often I've seen
it that if the other person's prioritizing a bunch of
other stuff and you don't feel prioritized and you're not
a part of the priorities in the schedule, then that's unfair,
right if you've had a conversation. But that's why it
comes down to having a conversation, setting expectations extremely clearly,

(01:01:20):
being really specific, and then looking at the reality of
their lifestyle. Like I meet a lot of people who
say to me, I really want my partner to be ambitious,
but I want them to be really available, and I'm like,
those two things just don't go together. Like the reality
is that person doesn't exist. It's really really hard for
someone to be super ambitious and super available because that

(01:01:42):
comes with certain give and take. I'm not saying it's
not possible to have someone who's slightly ambitious and available.
I'm saying that having both in their most extreme form
is unrealistic. And so I think it's really looking at
the complete person rather than this one area of them,
because they may be really great at a bunch of
other stuff and they need to improve in this area,
or they're not great at any of it and they're

(01:02:04):
not good at this area. And then you've got to
really look for what you deserve and not settle for less.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
And I want to say one thing. You used the
word narcissist. It is not narcissistic to have needs. So
a narcissist is someone who is all about themselves. But
that doesn't mean because you have needs and you want
to spend time with your partner, even if those needs
are maybe more than that partner wants or can deal with,
you're not a narcissist. You're human. That's human we want

(01:02:31):
to connect with. We have needs.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Absolutely not a narcissist, for sure. It's good for clarifying that. Well,
take one last question.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
I really love you Jay your recent love you to Gayl.
I'm learning about you.

Speaker 10 (01:02:46):
I really appreciate you. We're talking a lot about couples
and relationships and everything that you've talked about today, How
does that apply to couples are experienced neurodivergence, Because when
you're saying, you know, in the real play earlier, I
was thinking, yeah, like an hour would be great, But

(01:03:10):
if you're a neurodivergent like myself, it's really hard to
go from one test to.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Another, to another to another to another like a.

Speaker 10 (01:03:17):
Switch test, you know, task switching and executive functioning. And
so you're talking a lot about Uh, it just feels.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Like, Caitlin, in this scenario, you're the neurodivergent person or
your partner.

Speaker 10 (01:03:29):
The question is, how do you everything that you've all
the advice that you've given for couples, How would that
be different or the same for a couple that has
someone with with one person that's neurodivergent or both because
they're My husband is also neurodivergent. So it's a it's

(01:03:50):
a learning curve and it's wonderful, but it everything that
you're talking about applies differently, and so oh hello, So
I'm just to understand trying to understand what that looks like.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
You know, I think that we are all.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Neurodivergence is out of spectrum, and we are all whether
we have a diagnosis or we don't have a diagnosis.
You know, we're all different from each other, and whether
you have a diagnosis, that makes it a little more challenging. Regardless,
we still have to learn who the other person is,
what are some of their strengths, what are some of

(01:04:28):
the challenges, what are some of our strengths, What are
some of our challenges, and how.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
Do we communicate about them?

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
And we've had you know, I see so many couples
where you know, someone will say, well, my partner's on
the spectrum, or my partner deals with this or that,
and it's the same. You know, there's like specifics to
a specific diagnosis, but at the same time, the same
kind of human issues around how do we communicate about
our differences? What do we do with these challenges that

(01:04:56):
maybe are a little bit more challenging because of this
person's neuro divergence.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
But I don't I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
I think when people kind of try to label and
get kind of stuck in because of this this is
why I'm acting this way, or this is why my
partner acts this way. We lose the person behind the
diagnosis and we never ever ever want to do that.
You will lose so much about the person if you
see everything through the lens of their neurodivergence.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Unfortunately, that's all we have time for today, for the questions. Uh,
I want to give it up for Lorrie. Got leave everyone,
you please make some noise. So so grateful, Thank you, Larry.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
This is so great, amazing, Thank you you and U
for Lori. Everyone, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Thank you. Hey everyone. If you love that conversation, go
and check on my episode with the world's leading therapist,
Lorrie Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people
ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak,
and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space
right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems.
Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.

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Jay Shetty

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