MALALA: The Story The World Hasn’t Heard Until Now

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was in a coma when so much was happening
about my life and my story was spreading around the world.
I remember my last day of school in Pakistan. I
was fifteen years old. I was hoping for the next
day to be a normal day, and then something terrible

(00:23):
happened and I wake up in a hospital in Birmingham
in the UK, and I find myself on a hospital bed,
recovering from injuries, going through severe pains, trying to figure
out what had happened. And you know, I still had
not even seen what was out there on the media
about me.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
The number one health and wellness podcast Ja Shetty Jay
Sheddy only shed Malala, Welcome to On Purpose.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
I'm so grateful because I've wanted you on the show
for so many years. And I'm actually really, really glad
that it didn't happen before this book, because I don't
think I would have really understood what you were going through,
who you are, who you're trying to become. And I

(01:20):
feel this book is almost like your reintroduction to the world,
and so I got to get a sense of the
real you. But I'm so grateful thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Thank you so much. It's truly an honor to be
on your podcast. And I cannot agree more with you
on this. Writing a book like this is like writing
a journal, and you want to share that journal with
people out there, hoping that it could help somebody out
there who might be in the same place as you,
might be feeling lost, may not be able to find

(01:52):
a way out. So I wrote this book because I
once needed a book like this when I was going
through difficult times. So my hope is that it helps
people find their way.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because in one sense,
your journey is unrelatable because you've seen things that most
people have not seen. And then at the same time,
when I was reading the book, I'd agree with you.
There's so much relatability to it in how we're seeing,
how we're heard, how we're understood, how people project their

(02:23):
beliefs and opinions and expectations onto us. And so I
wanted to start off by asking you that you open
the book with I'll never know who I was supposed
to be, because the world decided who you were before
you got to become Talk to me about how that
felt the first time you understood that.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
I was in a coma when so much was happening
about my life and my story was spreading around the world.
I remember my last day of school in Pakistan, fifteen
years old. I was hoping for the next day to
be a normal day, and then something terrible happened and

(03:09):
I wake up in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK,
and I find myself on a hospital bed, recovering from injuries,
going through severe pains, trying to figure out what had happened.
And you know, I still had not even seen what
was out there on the media about me. You know,
I was like, you know, what does this new life mean?

(03:34):
Do I take on this new journey in a new
place and how do I recover from the trauma that
I have faced. I knew that the only way I
can actually have some hope in life is by dedicating
my life to girls education. So I took on this
journey to become a girls education activist. I was defined

(03:54):
as a brave, courageous activist. You know, when I learned
more about how I was described in the world, I said, Okay, wow, maybe, okay,
this is what it means when you survive a terrorist attack.
This is how you're supposed to live your life, and
and there's not much you can do. You cannot go
back to the old life. You cannot expect a normal

(04:15):
life because you are now invited to these big events
and gatherings and you are receiving awards and you are
getting titles. You have to live up to it now.
So I said, Okay, it means I cannot have a
normal life. I cannot be that normal student. I cannot
feel the same love or just have that that normal

(04:35):
life as as a teenager, you know, as a as
a young woman. So I sort of embraced it. You know,
you sort of internalize it, and you embrace it whatever
people say about you and you then you begin to
live up to that.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, I think it's it's so and like I said,
it's so interesting because what you experienced, and we'll get
to that is so different and distant from the experience.
Yet when you say those words of I felt like
I had to live up to how people saw me.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
I think that's a very human thing that we all experience,
except yours was on the world stage.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, it's important to share that. We begin to internalize it.
I started saying that it's a sense of responsibility that
I feel because I want myself to live up to
this idea of being a brave and courageous activist advocating
for girls around the world. I cannot be scared, I

(05:35):
cannot have fear, and I need to stay committed to
making a change happen. And at the same time, like
I'm fifteen years old, I have to be studying at
the same time, I have to learn so much and
and try to be a normal student, and then also
maintain like writing a book and giving speeches and you know,
like receiving a Nobel Peace Prize at age seventeen. I

(05:59):
remember I was still in my school and that morning
my team asked me if I wanted to stay back
and prepare a media statement just in case. And I said,
are you guys crazy? Do you think a school student
should be receiving a Nobel Peace Prize? So I went
to my school. I was in my chemistry class. My

(06:19):
school's deputy head teacher walked in and called me outside
and informed me that I had won the Nobel Peace Prize.
I was like shocked. I said thank you to her.
I gave short remarks to everybody in the school to
just thank them and talk about the importance of education.
Then I went back to like my physics class, and
I completed my school. Actually, I said, I'm not going

(06:41):
to do any interviews or anything. I'm going to finish
my school. You know, that day, I felt that so
many like students sort of looked at me. And I
felt really noticed that day because in this new school,
I was a very quiet person, and I thought, you know,
I thought like everybody saw me as an activist and
nobody really wanted to be friends with me. But the

(07:05):
next day, when everything was back to normal, I felt
that most people turned their faces away and it just
went back to like that normal day. Were I just
I just you know, wanted to have I wanted to
have friends, and it, you know, wasn't there.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, you do you feel like that made you disconnect
and distant from your friends and people around you, Like,
how did it affect you? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:31):
I don't really, you know, blame the students at that school.
It was an all girls school. It was in a
completely new country now, different language, different culture. A lot
of the girls had already made friends. So I was
a late comer and they had heard about me in
the news. They had heard the story, and I think

(07:52):
they were feeling awkward in how to approach me. And
at the same time, I was also so nervous in
starting a conversation. And I actually missed my old life.
I just wanted to be the girl I was in Pakistan, mischievous,
exploring new things, adventurous, chatting with friend all the time

(08:13):
and like copying or like mimicking people's accents and talking about,
like you know, gossip and all of those things. And
I just thought, maybe, like maybe that's that part of
my life is is gone.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah. I love the part where you say they made
me into a mythical heroine. Sometimes the absurdity of it
made me laugh. You said, growing up in Mingora, I
was a troublemaker, even on my best day. I was
not the reticence saint that everyone now claimed I was.
I know, I was laughing when I read it, but
then feeling sad because yeah, that has real consequences for you.

(08:54):
But it almost made me laugh and I was like,
oh wow, like Milala, like the Malala sees herself as
a mischievous, you know, funny person who's you know, a
trouble maker. Yeah, Like, tell me about that version of you,
Like take us back to that version of you.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
In Pakistan, I was, you know, still exploring who I
was as a person, and in school, I was very active.
I wanted to participate in every competition. I was giving
speeches and doing debates, and I was also like trying
to sing. I don't know, like I'm like with a
terrible voice, also doing that. My friends and I still

(09:34):
joke about it that, you know, we just love to
be doing something all the time. Education is a privilege.
We knew that it's not something that every girl has
access to. I thought I was lucky that my father
was so supportive of allowing me to be in school.
So I valued and treasured every moment at school. And

(09:56):
you know, hear people complain about being in school and
they can't wait for it to finish. It was the
other way around for us. We wanted to stay in
school for as long as we could. Because when girls
exposure is limited, and when you live in a patriarchal
society where you cannot really leave your home, so you know,
you're supposed to stay inside the four walls of a house,

(10:19):
so school becomes that place of safety for you where
you can explore things, but at the same time, like
you know you are you are in a safe place,
but you can explore the things that you love and enjoy.
So we we loved our time in school, and I
just wish that I could have all of that in
the UK as well, in this new school. And somehow

(10:39):
it was very challenging to like make it happen. I
was trying house like participating in almost everything that I could.
I was signing up for like a two hundred meter race,
and then I was trying to be part of the
debating society because I wanted to make friends, not that
I wanted to add more to my personal statement or
wanted to be an excellent student, like truly, deeply, all

(11:02):
I wanted was to get an opportunity where I could
like talk to friends.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
Back in Pakistan. When you were saying that you already
had this gratitude to be an education, how did that
develop at such a young age, because I feel that's
often what develops with perspective. How did you have it
at such an early age to recognize the value of education.
What did you see women go through or what had

(11:27):
you seen that inspired you to want to value education.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
The scenario of a girl without an education was not
something that we had to imagine. We were actually seeing
it right in front of our eyes. We had the
stories of our aunts, of our mothers, of our cousins,
of our siblings, who without an education, missed out on
the opportunity to have a future that they chose. My

(11:54):
own mother could not learn. It was very uncommon in
the village for a girl to be even enrolled into school.
So when she was admitted into a primary school and
she was the only girl in that classroom, she sold
her books because she said, there's no point no other
girl is going to a school, and she got some
candies in return. She never saw a classroom after that.

(12:16):
It was then years later, when you know, when she
finally was married to my dad, and my dad has
been very supportive of like women's rights and girls' education,
she started relearning again. So when I, you know, when
I was seeing how women and girls are asking for
one thing, and that is the right to learn, I

(12:37):
knew that it was truly a privilege to be in school.
But I think, you know, the moment when I realized
that this was not something that girls can access so
easily and it can be taken away. Was when the
Taliban took over.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
What was different about your father's experience that made him
so aware of this was what was different about his
upbringing or.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
You know, it's really hard to answer because so my
dad and his brother both received their education while their
five sisters could not. And my dad took a different
commitment that when he has a daughter, he will educate her,
while his brother did not do the same. So, you know,

(13:23):
you could be in this in the exact same environment
and you can read and understand it very differently than
the other person, and you can make different decisions. So
for my dad, it was this simple dream where he
wanted girls to have exactly the same rights as voice,
and he always questioned why his sisters could not be

(13:46):
in school while he could be. And he knew that
for things to change for women and girls, men have
to change and do better. So he became a feminist
father before he had even heard the feminism. And he
usually says that don't ask me what I did, but
ask me what I did not do. I did not

(14:07):
clip her wings. So he believes in the autonomy, in
the in the power of women and girls. He says, like,
we don't need to do anything, We just need to
take a step back and give them space. So my
father was an amazing father. I consider myself lucky and
I remind people that my story is not unique. So

(14:29):
many other girls in my hometown wanted to speak out
against the Taliban oppression for their right to education, but
their brothers or their fathers stop them. The only thing
that's different in my story is that my father did
not stop me.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Well, what a beautiful relationship you have and a gratitude
that you have for him and incredible, and I can
agree with you more. There's it's amazing that even for
a woman to gain access the education. Sadly that requires
the permission of a man that space.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yes, and it's you know, like it is irritating, You're
like why it is that way, but it is a
reality if you live in a patriarchal society. We have
to acknowledge that men are in power, they have influence,
so we have to be engaging them as well. And
it takes a lot of time to change things. Right now,

(15:23):
when I look at our community in Pakistan, in the
village that my parents are from, a lot of things
are changing now because when a few fathers step up
and they really redefine what it means to be a
good father, other fathers follow their footsteps. And my father
is spreading this message that true honor lies in standing

(15:45):
up for women and girls when their rights are taken away.
And you can be fulfilling your role as a father
when you empower your daughters when they have equal rights,
when they fulfill their dreams, not that you marry them off,
like that's not true fatherhood. You give them the education
so they choose their future for themselves.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Absolutely well said, it's before I look forward to me
and your dad one day too.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
You'd love him.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, that's it's amazing. It's truly incredible. I can't imagine
how was it challenging for him as well to do that,
and for the men in very challenging, Like I can't
imagine the judgment and the kind of criticism.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yes, I mean, I remember one time I was supposed
to speak at this press conference and my male cousin
was asked to help me get to the press conference.
And I was wearing a headscarf but I was not
covering my face. So my cousin just was like really
like irritated by that, because most women are expected to

(16:46):
cover their faces when they're in public, especially when they
like reach adulthood. But I was still like very little,
and I just did not want to cover my face.
And I remember that cousin just going to my dad
and telling him that or Malala should like cover her face,
and it's just, you know, such a shame to the
family's name. And my dad told him to mind his

(17:07):
own business and told him to like just basically like,
it's none of your business what she does. It's her
choice whatever she wants to wear. So in those moments,
you know, you do reflect and wonder what if your
dad had not spoken out for you, things would have
been different. So it makes a huge difference when people
become your allies and they stand up for you.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, at that time, what were your dreams post education? Like,
what were your aspirations before you became the emblem and
the symbol that you speak about. What were you dreaming of?
What was your hope to do with your education that
you were so grateful to receive.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
I mean I had many dreams. I was, you know,
exploring everything. Initially, I just wanted to be a car mechanic.
Then I said, okay, let's be a doctor, because everybody
was dreaming to be a doctor or engineer. But when
the Taliban took over our hometown and they banned girls education,
they restricted women from movement outside their houses, and they

(18:06):
were targeting and killing people if they're dared to speak out.
So at that time, I was questioning what our leaders
were doing for us. So I said, okay, you know what,
I'll become the prime minister and I will fix all
the problems in the world. Of course, that dream of
mind changed because I realized that if you look at
the world politics, people in leadership positions are rather disappointing

(18:29):
us by not addressing these injustices and these deep rooted problems. So,
of course my dreams have changed throughout life. But at
the time, I just wanted a different reality, a different
future for us. I simply wanted girls to be able
to go to school, to not be stopped, to not

(18:49):
be threatened, to not be harmed, to not be killed,
to learn, and to follow their dreams. I did not
want people to pick up their guns and target a
girl simply because she wants to be in school and
she wants to follow her dreams. But this is a reality,
like you know, for women and girls to exist and
to have equal opportunities or just to have a life

(19:11):
in dignity as a human, they're threatened for that. It's
really hard to process, but this is a reality like
so many many women have experienced or are still living through.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
When the Taliban takes over your town, what does that
actually look like and what does that mean for people
who have no idea what that actually looks like, and
what that means for your rights and what that means
for general living.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
I mean, everything changed when the Taliban took over. Initially
they were just giving religious sermons about you know, the religion,
and then quickly they started announcing these restrictions on women
and girls. That a woman cannot go to a market,
she cannot do a job. They were threatening people who

(19:55):
were artists, like painters or dancers or musicians. They said,
you know, all of this form of art is also prohibited.
And then they started like attacking people for it. They
would announce somebody's name that you know, this person dared
to disobey our rules and and uh, and then they
were like they would kill them. It was terrifying time

(20:18):
and then it affected like me directly, and it affected
guls directly when the Taliban announced that no Gul will
be allowed to be in school. And I remember the
day when the band was imposed and I woke up
and I just couldn't go to school anymore because the
Taliban would be on the roads on the streets, and

(20:40):
and you know, you could not be seen with a
with a backpack or in your school uniform. And I
remember the morning when my brothers would pack their school
bags and go off while I had to stay behind
my I think then like a few weeks later, some
of our friends sort of came out with this idea

(21:00):
that why don't we just go in our home clothes
and like wear a long hefty scarf basically and like
hide our bag and still like make it to school.
So we also like went to school secretly. But it
was I was like, you know, why we should not
be living in a world where girls have to hide

(21:22):
that their learning. It should be right that every girl
should be freely receiving.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Where did the innovative idea of starting a blog come
from to write about these things that you started to
document and reference and stand up for, Like, where did
that impetus come from for you to say, I'm actually
going to write about these things. I'm actually going to
document what's happening.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
You know, when these horrible things are happening and you
are living under a terrorism, you just want somebody to know.
It feels like the world is silent and nobody's looking
towards you. So, you know, my father and I were
finding opportunities where we can raise awareness, bring attention to
what was happening, because if you don't bring attention, then

(22:09):
there's just lack of action as well. So I was
speaking at the local press conferences, we were doing peace walks,
we spoke to the local media, and then these international
platforms also reached out. So the BBC blog, you know,
the BBC journalist approached my dad and said that they
wanted a student to share about their life under the Taliban.

(22:32):
So my dad actually asked another gun at the school,
and you know, she shared her blog for one day
and then her father came the next day and said
he could he can't allow his daughter to share her blog.
So when I heard that, I went to my dad
and I said, Dad, like, I want I want to
write my blog. I want to share my story. So

(22:54):
my dad said, okay, like, if you want to do it,
I'll support you. So I started blogging about my life.
I talked about, you know, the last days of school
and then what life was like under the Taliban education ban.
I wanted the world to know what was happening. And
I believe that change does not happen itself. Things will

(23:16):
remain as they are if we're waiting for somebody else
to come and save us. So I knew that I
need to do my part as much as I can,
and if that means telling my story at these conferences,
at these local platforms to the international media, I will
do that. My father was an activist, so I was

(23:37):
just simply following his footsteps, and we both became this,
these activists doing the work together.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
I mean that was from such an early age. That
was like eleven years old, eleven years old, eleven years
old for you to start becoming an activist. And that's
what's so interesting about is I read the book that
you were an activist before the event, and we'll talk
about it, but you're already an act is from such
a young age, it almost feels like you were meant

(24:05):
to be an activist. But there's so much lost when
it becomes your entire identity, yeah, rather than a part
of your identity.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Basically, yes, I became an activist at a young age,
but this is not what I had chosen for myself.
It was the circumstances that made me an activist. I mean,
which girl at eleven years old want to be an activist?
But it's only when your school is closed, that's when
you want to speak out because you want to be

(24:33):
back in school. That was my dream. I wanted girls
in my hometown to be in school. I wanted myself
to continue my education. We knew that a future without
an education is dark. We had seen stories of women
who lost their dreams because they were not being able
to go to school. So simply it was a dream
to have a future with equal opportunities. We can stand

(24:56):
on our own two feet, we can make a living
for our cells, we can know about our rights, we
can protect our rights. And so education was a pathway.
And when you are living in a patriarchal society, education
becomes the only pathway.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, it's it's amazing because you say that the situation
made you that way, But obviously there are other people
turning down the activism. Yeah, you felt like compelled to
stand up for your fellow friends and fellow girls.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
I thought, if I were to choose between two options,
whether to live under the Taliban and be silent, or
if it was you know, just to speak out and
even if it mean a thread from the Taliban but
some change could happen, I would choose the latter because
I wanted to see things change, because I wanted simply

(25:57):
a different future for ourselves. And it's really hard to tell,
you know, if it was the voice of like one
activist who changed something or not. Like so many people
were involved. You know, there was a whole civil society
who were advocating for bringing peace and for like you know,
like speaking against the Taliban's restrictions. Then this military operation

(26:18):
was done, we returned to we became internally displaced, and
then the summer of two thousand and nine, we returned
to Swath Valley and we restarted our lives. So many
schools were bombed, so many police stations and different like
political officials, buildings, and so many things were like damaged.
There were suicide attacks, people had lost their loved ones.

(26:41):
So our area, you know, Swath valley, which has been
known as the as a place of tourism and it's
known for its beauty and it's called like the Switzerland
of the East, became like a place of terrorism and
it was now just like war tone area. So we
had to then rebuild it. And I knew that it
was not just groups like the Taliban that we have

(27:02):
to stand up against, but we also have to talk
about the mindset, the mentality that still exists. It does
not have the like a name, it does not necessarily
is in the shape of an armed group, but the
ideology is there, and we have to stand up against
this ideology that do not see women as equal humans

(27:24):
and that deny women and gulls their rights. So my
father and I continued our activism, but we just thought
that the Taliban were gone. But somehow, you know, they
were still there in the distance. And I yeah, And
then in twenty twelve, at age fifteen, I was attacked
by the Taliban.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Before that, were you worried that you'd be attacked and
did you fear being attacked when you were being an
activist through the blog these conferences speaking were you scared
that that could ever happen and that could possibility with
that across your mind.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yes, I had these thoughts many times, what would happen
if a Taliban gunman shows up and tries to attack me?
But I was more worried about my dad. I just
had this little hope that maybe they would not attack
a girl. They would not attack you know, a fourteen
or fifteen year old girl. So yeah, you know, like

(28:28):
I every night, I would be worried about my father
more than more than me.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
I mean, even just listening to that, as I'm listening
to your journey and your life, I'm like, there is
so much courage and there is so much resilience for
such a young person to be able to even make
sense of what is going on, let alone put themselves
at the center of it. And the fact that you
were concerned about your father in that moment is so

(28:58):
heartwarming and at the same time it's it's painstaking because
it's so much pressure on such a young person to
take on. It's really incredible in your book, and I

(29:25):
want to be very sensitive to do with this because
of the way you write about it. And when I
was at this point in your book, it really, you know,
it really took me a second a process it myself,
and you talked about how you said, my life is
so happy now and it's hard to look back, and
I appreciate that. I can't imagine. I can't even come

(29:45):
close to imagine how hard it is to even reflect
on being attacked by the Taliban and in the manner
that it happened. I believe you're on a bus, yes,
the school bus. So walk me through what you can
sensitively and mindfully in the best way for you to
share that experience so people can understand what happened.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, So we were on our school bus, and you know,
I was just hoping i'd get to my home and
prepare for my next day exams. It would be a
normal school day the next day. But on the way,
the Taliban gunman stopped our school bus and one person
was distracting the driver at the front, and one guy

(30:28):
showed at the back and asked, who's Malala, and my
face was uncovered. He immediately started firing bullets. One bullet
immediately had hit me on the left side of my forehead,
and two bullets hit the friends who were sitting right
next to me in their arms and in their hand.

(30:49):
I do not remember the exact incident, you know, And
this has been my answer so far. I have like
many like memories in my head, but I sort of
have told myself I do not remember it. And I
was then taken to a hospital and from one hospital
to then another to then another, and then eventually I

(31:09):
was moved to the UK for my further treatment. And
you know, I survived, My friends survived. I started my
school again in the UK. My friends also or moved
to the UK and they started their school. So you know,
when I when I look back, I'm just really grateful that, uh,

(31:31):
you know that that we're all alive and we completed
our education. But like everything changed that day, you know,
like we didn't make it to our homes. It was
it was sort of a terrible, terrible moment. All I
remember is the last day of school and then waking
up in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK and

(31:54):
just realizing that I have a tube in my neck
and I can't talk, and I just look around and
I see these nurses and doctors speaking in English. They
look very different than like the brown people I had
seen in Pakistan. And I said, I feel like I'm
in a different place, and I am sort of writing
down to them to just tell me where I was

(32:16):
as a you know, where am I like? What happened
to me? And I repeatedly asked one question, where's my father?
And then I would also add, who's going to pay
for this? I don't have money, so I was worried
about the medical bill. You know, I think Americans would
understand where I was coming from, but I just wanted
to get better and leave the hospital, go back to

(32:40):
my old life. It took me a while to realize that,
you know, my life had taken a turn. My parents
joined me ten days later at the hospital. That was
the first time I actually cried, because a lot of
people might think that when I woke up, I might
have been under like so much and trauma, might have

(33:01):
been crying day and night. No, I just I wasn't
feeling normal. The pain is so intense that you just
forget the normal emotions to process it, the normal reactions.
So I couldn't even cry. And the first time I
saw my family when they came back to the when
they came to the UK, that was the first moment

(33:22):
I cried, because you know, when you see your family,
you connect with that normal life that you had before.
So and then before I even realized, you know, I
had like a few more surgeries to go through. And
then you know, they said, okay, we want you to
do this like interview and we're supposed, you know, we

(33:44):
want you to give this speech at the un and
we also have this book offer, so it would be
good if you can sign the book offer. So, and
you have to start school as well, because we don't
know when you can go back, but you should start
school in the UK. So I joined a new school.
And this is this like new pathway that my life took.

(34:04):
To be honest, Like in my heart, I thought this
is all temporary, Like this is all temporary for now
because we are going to go back to Pakistan as
soon as possible and we will have a normal life.
I just had no idea what was out there and
what had happened. So, like the first time when I
learned about the response from like people around the world

(34:28):
was when this person from the hospital brought a basket
of cards and letters. And I'm like reading cards and
letters from people around the world like US and Japan
and India and Canada, and I'm like, wait a second,
Like do people know about me, and then I like
looked at you know, sort of news on Google and

(34:48):
all of that. It's like wait a second, wow, Like
this is this is truly an opportunity because people have
heard my but maybe I can bring attention to the
stories of girls around the world. So I started Malala
Fund as well at the time, an organization I have
dedicated to girls education. So before I knew it, like,

(35:11):
you know, everything had switched. Now now I was sort
of like the lead activist. My father was following my footsteps,
and I was like helping my family as well. I was,
you know, doing a book or speeches and things like
that to help support my family. And I also had
to be a student at the same time.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
I mean, I know a lot even hearing about it,
I'm just like, I don't I have no idea how
you carried all of that.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
In the middle of all of this, you sort of
forget that you are fifteen and you're supposed to be
a girl. I you know, could not be silly. I
could not do normal things. I was not binge watching
some like sitcoms. I was I was not being able
to make friends at school. I was too shy, too awkward,

(36:03):
and you know, at lunchtime, I would I would just say, okay,
you know, I hope I can like sit next to
a friend. At least I can pretend like I'm sitting
with somebody and I don't want to sit alone. So
by the end of my school I just had only
made one one best friend and we're now like friends
for life, but just one one friend at school. And
so that that was all tough, because when you're like

(36:25):
so busy and you have all of this work going on,
it's you know, it's hard. It's hard to be a
normal student at school.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
I mean with the attack, it sounds like the television
had come across your blog and aware of your speeches
and your activism. Do you think they saw you as
a threat because you were starting to gain momentum. Were
you starting to have an impact and they noticed that
or was it a way of displaying power, Like, yeah,
how have you reconciled that?

Speaker 1 (36:53):
So the Taliban issued statements after that attack, and they
said many things when I survived, that they did the
right thing, that I was somehow promoting an anti Islamic
ideology by simply asking for girls to be in school,
and they said that they still see me as as

(37:17):
that disobedient person that needs to be punished for speaking out.
So they have like repeatedly created these fabricated narratives, these
false narratives calling what I do as like un Islamic
or all of that. I mean, like learning and education
is a core part of Islam. I wish sometimes that

(37:41):
they read what they're preaching, Like if they read more
about Islam, they will learn that the most important thing
is actually seeking knowledge and learning. And there's nothing in
the religion that says a woman or a girl cannot learn.
So how can they make up these new rules by themselves.
It's just simply paid and misogyny, you know, it's they

(38:03):
try to misreligions exactly exactly. Yeah, I mean, I I
sometimes think about how much can I understand their ideology,
and then how can I convince them. I was of
this view for a long time. I thought maybe I
could sit down with them and explain it to them,
and I can tell them that, you know, I have

(38:23):
also read the Quran with translation, or like I know
all the ninety nine names of Allah off by heart,
and I can sort of say, like you know that
that they don't own the religion, like there are all
of us from many cultures and many backgrounds who connect
with with the faith that you know, education is not

(38:44):
a threat to women. It's rather about their empowerment and
that it is a core part of Islam. But with
time I realized that you know, it's it's not about that,
it's not about you know, changing their ideologies, but it's
talking about the deep cause of why these extreme ideologies emerge.
And education is a pathway to challenge indoctrination, to encourage

(39:13):
critical thinking among people, and to empower people like education
is the most powerful equalizer and it can help us
address so many of these social economic injustices. And at
the same time, like, you know, if the Taliban do
not want to see women and girls empowered or in education,
the best way for me to fight back is to
help girls and women get education and equal opportunities. So

(39:36):
I shifted my focus. I said, I'm going to focus
on educating girls. The Taliban wanted to stop one girl
from learning, Let's educate every girl in the world.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
It's so empowering listening to you you say that, and
to see the ripple effects that it's having, And I
wonder for you as you were doing that as you
start that process from coming out of the koma. How
long were you in a coma for?

Speaker 1 (39:59):
I think a week. It was like induced coma.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
I can't imagine how worried your parents were when you
didn't come home that night.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
I mean it was a nightmare. I could never understand it.
I you know, comprehended what they experienced. And it's one
of those topics that sort of we have talked through
when it was the book writing phase, you know, that's
when you ask each other questions like I'm writing this chapter,
can you tell me what exactly happened? But these conversations

(40:29):
are really really hard, and like mental health therapy, these
conversations did not come up at the time. I had,
like many doctors and nurses, and I loved all of them,
but the therapist at the hospital was my least favorite.
And you know, she would ask me, how are you

(40:50):
feeling today? And I would roll my eyes that you know,
what does she know? And like my father, my parents
and we sort of said not to therapy. We said
it's okay, like, you know, I'm doing fine. I have recovered,
like the surgeries are successful. I have recovered. And then
it was like years later that I wished that I

(41:11):
had received therapy because I thought, I I, you know,
I had recovered and everything was fine. I just thought
I did not remember the attack, so I'm good. I
can move on. And then seven years later I had

(41:33):
flashbacks that were triggered by a bong incident. Yeah, so
you know, this is now college time, and I was
open to exploring many things in college. I you know,
my life had taken this shift. I was becoming a
different young person. So this was like, you know, a

(41:54):
normal light. And I was hanging out with some friends
and they showed me a long and I was like,
what is this and it's like, oh, you know, just
give it a try. Nothing harmful. So I take one puff,
I cough, and on the second attempt, I inhale it
and I felt it went all inside my body and

(42:15):
what was like supposed to be a fun night just
took a sharp turn and immediately I froze. I thought
I was reliving the attack. The flashbacks were in front
of my eyes. I thought I could see the gunmen again.

(42:36):
I was shaking, I was shivering, you know, I could
hear my heart beat. I was you know, I just
I wanted to scream. It was like the such a
trauma that I was going through in that moment, and
it like went on and on. I just wanted it
to stop, and I felt so helpless, like time slowed down,

(42:57):
you know. I thought, maybe this is the afterlife, maybe
maybe I'm dead, maybe it has happened again, like maybe
the gunmen are back. And I was like so scared
that I could not even close my eyes and fall
asleep because I thought if I close my eyes that
I will die. And like even even the next day,

(43:18):
I thought, you know, this will like sort of magically disappear.
You just hope the next day to be normal, And
it wasn't the case, and I realized that my life
had changed. I had many panic attacks after that, and
I as much as I tried, I just could it
was not going away.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Wow, it's incredible to think after seven years, yes, that
everything could come back. And I was I was actually
going to ask before that there's this. It's almost like
you were being asked to be the symbol of courage
and hope. Yeah, but that meant there was no space
for grief or anger like or doubt, like the grief

(44:01):
of the lost life that you had before, the grief
of having to leave this place that you loved that
you thought you were coming back to. It sounds like
there wasn't any time or space to process any of that,
And had you had the therapy support that you would
have wanted, maybe it wouldn't have happened that way. Yeah,
talk to me about how when did you was that

(44:22):
when you first started looking at emotions like grief and anger,
and what were the emotions that came up after that
seven year reminder?

Speaker 1 (44:31):
I think now I see it as emotions of grief
and frustration or but I think you know, what's different
in my experience was that when a moment like that
broke me down, and when small things would make me
scared or frightened, all of a sudden, this was not

(44:53):
happening before. Because I was supposed to be this brave
and courageous girl, and now that I was afraid of
small things or just nothing terrified me. I felt that
I had failed in living up to the expectation of
being brave and courageous, and that was the hardest part

(45:18):
to process. I just could not take in more and
I was frustrated with myself because I thought like Malana remembered, like,
you went through so much, you processed it, and you
could take so much on your shoulders. Why is it
breaking you down now when like you are safe and
there's nothing to be worried about, You like everything is okay,

(45:42):
and somehow you're like frightened. Now that is just like
so hard to process at the time that you feel
like so frustrated with yourself. There's this anger frustration, and
you feel like you are an impostor because you know
you have you have failed to meet this definition of
being brave. So for months, like it went on that

(46:04):
even my friends started noticing that I was not doing okay.
So one of my friends then suggested that I see
a therapist. And that was the first time, after seven
or eight years, that I started therapy.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
It's so fascinating, isn't it that despite you having lived
through so many difficult things, the mind is still able
to guilt you into thinking you should have figured this out. Like,
how do you like it's so like hearing you say
that you've got all the proof that you've gone through
really hard things. Yes, but the mind still finds a
way to make you feel guilty and shameful and frustrated

(46:39):
that you haven't figured out, or an impostor as you
just said, like, oh you're an impostor because you're helping
people have hope, but you're still dealing with this, and
it's amazing how the mind can just get the better
of us. Yeah, regardless of what we've lived through.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Yeah, I mean we lived under terrorism, we lived under
the Taliban, and I lived those moments with so much courage.
And then, like many years later, I could not even
watch the news and see the word killing attack. It
would just terrify me so much that like you cannot
hide it. You cannot hide that it's breaking you apart.

(47:19):
You know, the flashbacks, these panic attacks. So when my
friend suggested that I see a therapist, I remember my
first session with the therapist where I told her everything
about what was going on. She told me that, you know,
this is PTSD and anxiety. She said, it could be
like many things. You might be stressed about your exams

(47:42):
or your college life, and so many things that you
are thinking about right now in life, but this is anxiety,
and this is PTSD that you are experiencing, like many
many years later, you know, I was so annoyed. I
was saying, like, so, how can we fix this? I
was hoping she would give me some medication, that she
would fix the problem, but she made me realize that

(48:03):
it takes time. It takes time to process. She taught
me different techniques, like breathing techniques to help myself when
I am facing anxiety. Uh and uh and and she,
you know, helped me understand that there's only so much

(48:23):
like you can take at a time. And maybe you
could many years ago, but maybe right now that you know,
she calls it a wind of tolerance, that your wind
of tolerance is maybe you know, sort of shrinking a
bit and then it expands a bit at times that
maybe you have just too much on your shoulders that
you are overwhelmed, or sometimes when we don't address it

(48:43):
on time, it piles up and then it's they gets
so heavy that it breaks you down. So she said,
like you might be experiencing that as well. So, yeah,
like the therapy really changed everything for me. Like if
I had not received therapy, I just do not even
know if I would have been like in this position
right now.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
What kept you committed to therapy when you're having such
dark days? Because as you said, it's not like you
wake up tomorrow and you feel better, obviously, and so
what kept you committed to the process when you weren't
seeing the light at the end of the tunnel?

Speaker 1 (49:19):
So, you know, like I was finding a way to
get out of it, like you know, you feel like
you are you are in the darkness, or like you
want to get out. You know that you don't want
to be in the place where you are right now,
and you're finding different ways to get out of it.
I try to talk to my parents. My parents just

(49:40):
could not understand I. You know, I was like sort
of phrasing it in a way that it doesn't freak
them out. But I was telling them that I have
had some challenges with my mental health. And my mom
was like, just don't be stressed, like you know, just
be happy. And the same with my dad. He's like,
you know, we want to see you happy, and when
you are sad, it makes us sad, but when you happy,

(50:00):
it makes us happy. And I was like, okay, like
I'll try, but this is not how it works. I
usually debate with my dad that you know, I have
the right to be sad as well, that these are
all emotions and we need to give ourselves time to
process that. I found my friends very helpful. So at college,
all the amazing friends that I had made helped me

(50:21):
in this time because they were there for me. They
were not my therapists, but they made sure that I
like did not feel alone. That you know, they were
sharing moments with me, taking me to dinner or taking
me to an event or something like taking me for
a walk, simple things like that. And then a few

(50:42):
times they did a sleepover with me because I you know,
I was struggling. I was struggling to fall asleep, and
every you know, every day a friend would take a
turn to a sleepover. You know, the first time that
I was able to like fall asleep, And yeah, it
was like my friends who made me feel that getting
therapy it's okay, Like, don't be disappointed with yourselves that

(51:05):
somehow you have not lived up to the expectation of,
you know, being this brave girl who knows an answer
to everything and she has figured it out. Like it's okay.
So many people who you might think have got it
all together are actually getting therapy. And when my friend
told me that she herself was seeing a therapist, I said, wow,

(51:27):
like I had no idea. She said, yeah, like you
may not know what a lot of people are, so
it's like it's okay. And my therapist told me the
same thing. So that gave me a sense of relief
where you just like don't feel alone anymore. And that's why,
like I'm sharing my story because I'm wondering how many
people are out there who might feel alone, who may

(51:48):
not know a way out. I just want to tell
them that I was in the same place, and I
wished somebody had told me their story and had told us,
like it's okay to ask for help, like, you know,
get therapy, get the support, talk to somebody. I took
months to actually see a therapist, So I hope that
when people read my story, they they ask for help.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Friends is such a kind of through line in your journey,
as I'm hearing you talk today, like the importance of friends,
missing friends, making friends. How would you define a good friend?

Speaker 1 (52:26):
I mean, it's like a place where you feel you
can be yourself. When I am in the company of
my friends, I don't think about being correct about everything.
I don't think about am I you know, am I
saying this thing correctly or not? And you just don't

(52:48):
think twice. You can be yourself, You can let it
all out. It is a non judgmental environment that they
create for you, and especially for people like some of
us who are exposed to a public life and who
have a public profile. We have seen how you know,
we can be criticized or scrutinized for almost anything, and

(53:12):
we have to somehow to say all the correct things.
But when you find friends that you trust, who love
you and support you no matter what, you can be
yourself with them. So like with my friends, I you know,
I can be silly, I can be funny, I can
talk about any topic. I can talk about boys and astrology,
and you know, we can discuss their their their love

(53:34):
lives and and in that moment, I just don't feel
like I have to be somebody or I have to
like live up to some sort of a profile that
I have. I feel like I can just simply be myself.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah. I think that's that's what we're looking for.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Yeah. Friends are everything.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, And as you're finding your way in this book,
I imagine it becomes harder and harder with people who
know more about you. If they don't know you, Yes,
to really break that barrier down. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
So I remember the first week of college, I had
decided that I will say hi to everybody. I you know,
might be overdoing it, but it's okay. It might feel cringe,
but go say hello to everybody, because you don't want
it to be like your school life. You want to
make as many friends as possible. I remember saying hi

(54:25):
to Cora, who became like my first friend at college,
and you know, like sort of when we connected. We
we were talking about what we were studying and what
we liked about our subjects, and then we were visiting
these different exhibitions about different societies and clubs at the
college fair. So then there was this like Oxford Union

(54:50):
Fair as well. It's like a famous debating society, and
you know, I was like hiding this identity of mine,
of being you know, an activist. So I'm looking at
the at the poster of the Oxford Union and I
see all of these famous speakers who have spoken there before,
and then I see a photo of mine, and I

(55:10):
was like, oh, you know, why did they put it there?
Or like how do I hide myself because this is
like the last thing I want to see. And then
some people spotted me. They asked for a photo, and
this friend of mine, like she was just so supportive.
She took you know, photos of me, you know, with
the fans, and I was like, oh, like it's over.

(55:32):
She may never want to talk to me again, like
the friendship is over. But once that was done, you know,
I was like, I'm so sorry, I said, you know,
and she said it's okay, like you know, and we
just quickly changed our conversation back to okay, like you know,
what are we going to get for our groceries? Or
you know, when when is our next essay? And all
of that. I think with friends like these, you like,

(55:55):
you know, you can be more yourself.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
When you're writing about in the book it was more
about school than college, but you became the resident advisor
on romance. Yes is what you say. And then there's
this beautiful part where you say, how are you so
good at spotting red flags when you've never been on
a date And you say, I guess I'm a better
coach than a player. You know, talk to me about

(56:34):
that experience of again, like it goes back to what
you were saying earlier, like you're trying to live up
to this symbol you're not binge watching TV shows, you're
not dating, you're not you know, no, walk me through
that paradox of being a young woman who's wanting to
experience the world growing up, but then having to keep
this reminder almost of who what you stand for.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Yeah, I mean I had become this relationship guru in
college because everybody was going through some problems with boys.
You know, you can imagine there are always problems. Somebody
was getting ghosted or you know, the boy was not
replying for two days and my friend is like, do
you think he loves me? And I'm like you missing

(57:20):
the sign? And you know, I you know, I was
helping them understand, you know, to some I was saying,
like you need to move on, like there's more in life.
And then they were like, how do you know it all?
I was like, I don't know. Yeah I do sometimes say,
you know, like a coach doesn't have to be on
the field, Like I did not expect to have like

(57:43):
a love story. And even though like just growing up,
I had seen Bollywood movies and everybody has imagined Sharokhan
like figure, you know, we all imagine ourselves in the
Sharokhan songs. But I became very self conscious to the
attack because my facial nerve was damaged on the left
side and that caused asymmetry, and you know, like my

(58:09):
smile and the features were not the same anymore, and
you know, sort of like you noticed, right, like you
notice you're not the same person anymore. So I became
it's more self aware, and I just thought, okay, like
I you know, I should not like I just thought
like nobody would love me. And at the same time,
I was like, but nobody, because you know, we're.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Like so.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Hard on ourselves. That were like, you know, but nobody
should love me, and I just want to focus on
the work now. This love life is not for me.
So that's sort of what I thought. Though in college
I did find a crush. He was just like good
looking guy, not my husband, A different guy, a good
looking guy, a really mysterious character, more like a gangster

(58:55):
kind of character. I did not know I was attracted
to like the bad voice, and it was more like
a one sided love in imagination. It wasn't real because
you know, he would just sometimes like say hello to me,
come to my room, and eat all the bananas and
cookies and then disappear, you know, there was like there
was like I just had no idea. My friends would

(59:16):
sometimes say that, you know, he's doing drugs and stuff
like that, so stay away from him, and I was like, no,
he needs my head, like somebody needs to protect him. Yeah,
but like when you yourself are in that love phase,
then it's you can't see it clearly. It is true,
like you know, you just can't see it. But yeah,
then that crush ghosted me and that story was over.

(59:37):
But I was like, you know, at least I just
went through a moment of feeling love and maybe I
loved it because I was under this like assumption that
you know, I cannot be loved and I will never
find somebody. So I said, just why there's no harm
in just loving somebody in your imagination?

Speaker 2 (59:56):
Yeah, I mean that feeling of I won't be loved
and maybe it isn't for me, that feels like a
really deep kind of emotion that that doesn't just disappear.
What worked to help work through that? Like, what really
allowed you to work on that, especially when this feeling
came from the incident and from being attacked. It didn't

(01:00:19):
come from yourself. You didn't have that before.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
You know, girls have been sort of told to be
insecure about themselves, so I would not say that there
was like literally no insecurity before. But after that attack,
I became very very insecure about my looks, but so
much that I just said, you know what, I don't
care about it. When you set a new pathway for
yourself and you say, you know what, like love life

(01:00:44):
is not for me, I don't care if nobody loves me,
and it just doesn't matter. And I think in the
middle of that, I just forgot to love myself. That
was the hard part. But when I found this new
guy in my life, sir, who's now my husband. So
there's there's a good ending to this story, you know.

(01:01:05):
I immediately fell in love with him because he was
like so good looking, heart and handsome, funny, here a
good sense of humor. He was laughing at my jokes.
I thought, he's just so entertaining. I was like, wow,
like is he they? Is he like the person that
I had sort of imagined, you know, for myself. So

(01:01:26):
when you know, when Asa and I started like talking
and we were getting to know each other, I knew
that I love him and I wanted to be with him.
The marriage was a whole different conversation, so we can
come back to that. But the other conversation was about
me accepting that he loves me. I was in so
much doubt I could not trust it. I you know,

(01:01:48):
I just constantly felt like, you know, but why would
he love me? And then like in the end, I
just told myself that, you know, somebody can't write a
proof to you to say, hey, I give you a
proof that I love you. If they are treating you

(01:02:10):
with respect and they make you happy and they're there
for you and they want to spend the rest of
their life with you, then they love you and embrace that.
Accept that, like, don't question it, don't doubt it. You
can't give them any guarantee. They can't give you any guarantee.
So I had to like process that. It was really hard,

(01:02:31):
but in the end I accepted it because I constantly
would have these questions in my head, but like, are
you okay with like the way I look at it?
Okay if I can't have like a full smile, and
are you okay with like sort of the left side
of my face and all of that. Like sometimes I
would try to ask him this question, and sometimes these
questions would be floating in my mind and then I

(01:02:53):
would just remind myself, like, he's here with you. He's
looking at you, and he's smiling, like he can't stop
looking at you. He's calling you gorgeous and beautiful. So
accept that embrace that user loved me, and he you know,
with him like I have felt this immense love and joy,

(01:03:14):
So he loves me. But more than that, I think
I started loving myself.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Wow. I love hearing that. Thank you for sharing that,
Thank you so much for taking us there. And yes,
the multitude of emotions that every person goes through and
definitely what women go through. But then to add your
own experience to as well, what was Usro's background like
when it comes to women's rights and education and you know,

(01:03:39):
how did he what was his viewpoint on that? Of
course I assume yes it's supportive, but I'd love to
know what his journey was and his experience if that
was Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
I mean, he has two older sisters who are like
eighteen and sixteen years older than him, and so he
usually says that he grew up with three moms. He
wasn't as close to his dad. He has like the
right views. I know, sometimes men receive a lot of
praise when they're saying the right thing. We're like, wow,

(01:04:09):
this man is so nice because he believes women should
be allowed to work, or yeah, like women should be
making decisions about their bodies and about their career anything,
like wow, he's such a nice man. So yes, I
do sometimes say that he is an amazing person, like
so open minded and like he just respects women's dignity

(01:04:32):
and and see and see them as like equal humans
and which is which should be the case. But then
at the same time, I'm like, that should be called
a basic man. It's a basic normal man.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
It's so true. It's really hard to process. It's such
a great way.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
And I've been praising my dad so much for being
like this amazing feminist dad. That should be a basic
normal dad.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
Yeah, yeah, well said absolutely brilliant. It's a basic man
and a basic dad. That's what we're trying to aspire for,
right exactly. No, it's true, you're you can you can
have said it better. It's it's not an achievement to
think we should have equal rights and equal opportunities and
equal Yeah, there's no there's no greatness in that it's obvious.

(01:05:15):
It's really really obvious, makes a lot of sense. Was
it was it hard for you to fall in love
and date and build a relationship with the expectations that
come from you know, your home, that come from culture,
that come from family. Like of course you've talked about
your father being more forward thinking when it comes to
women's education. But I feel like dating, love, romance, these

(01:05:36):
are not easy topics in a South Asian home.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
All of these things were on my mind, but I
think the one thing that sort of held me back
was marriage because you know, like I had to then
understand that, like in reality, if I want to be
with us or we have to get married, because culturally,

(01:06:01):
you cannot be with a person, you know, you have
to like get married to live with them. So I
knew that, you know, I cannot sort of like change
that whole culture all of a sudden. And at the
same time, like I said, you know, like I have
seen how marriage has changed the future of so many

(01:06:24):
girls who were forced into it. I you know, we
know that tens of millions of girls every year are
married off before the age of eighteen, and this is
you know, this has been an institution that has given
less to women through history and across the globe. So

(01:06:44):
it wasn't that I was against marriage or for marriage
or any of that, but I was just like confused.
I said, like, okay, like this, this is not an
easy decision. And I felt that I was thinking collectively
for all women when I was considering marriage for myself.
So like, on the one hand, I just wanted to
be with us, sir, I said, like, there's no doubt

(01:07:04):
about that, But at the same time, I also was
grappling with this idea of marriage. In the end, I
you know, I did all of my like research, and
I chatted with my friends and we were like reading
books by famous feminist authors and all of that. But
I said to User that you know, it's it's about
this like mutual agreement between us. And the more we talked,

(01:07:29):
the more sort of I spent time with him. I
just understood who he was as a person and how
he would be like a great supportive husband, and I
just saw how I enjoyed my time in his company,
that when I was with him, all these questions that
would be floating in my mind would just vanish. And

(01:07:51):
I remember we went to Lake Placid, And this was
a few months before marriage. While I was still thinking,
I said, maybe it's like over, maybe like I'll ask
him all the questions and he'll answer one incorrectly and
it's done. But the more time we spent together, sort
of I was getting those answers without even asking those questions.
So on the last day in Lake Placid, he said, so,

(01:08:12):
you know, are you gonna ask me the questions finally
or not? And I said, I think I have the answer,
and I said I'm ready. I think I'm ready to
be with you for the rest of my life. So then,
you know, a few months later, we finally got married.
And I still say that I am not proposing that

(01:08:33):
marriage is the best decision for every woman out there.
I'm not saying it's the worst decision for every woman
out there. I think it should be a conversation that
we should be having openly, and you know, we should
redefine these traditions, these norms, and talk about how it
can be this beautiful mutual agreement between two people where

(01:08:56):
they add more to their lives and make each other's
life happier, more joyful, more adventurous, and that we challenge,
you know, the elements of it that have given less
to women, and you know and talk about the bigger problems.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Absolutely, And the book you wrote, how to choose between
an institution I didn't believe in, yes, and a life
without the person I loved. And it's really interesting to
hear you make sense of it. And again, it sounds
like it was such an intentional decision and there was
so much thought behind why and what and how. And

(01:09:37):
I think that, yeah, I agree with you, no matter
whether someone decides to choose to get married or not.
I think that level of thought, yes, is just inherently
important and necessary.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
But because I just thought I would never get married,
I would tell all my college friends, do not get married,
stay away from boys. It's just a waste of time
and all of that. So I was like strongly against
marriage for a long time, and then I fell in
love and I was the first one in my friends
group to get married. They were rolling their eyes. They're like, seriously, seriously,

(01:10:13):
that's what you were advocating against. I was like oop. See.
I was like, you know, you should never listen to
a person, you know, if they randomly give you advice.
I said, I'm an education activist, like, listen to me
on that. Don't consider me an expert on every topic,
especially marriage.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. How do you when you look at
just how your life has changed, how the world has changed,
When you observe what's happening in the world today, what
do you focus on? What are you reflecting on, what
are you aware of?

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
I think the world is constantly changing, but right now
it feels that it is becoming more and more difficult
for women and girls. And I'm saying because of what
we are witnessing right now happening in Afghanistan. For the
past four years, the Taliban have limited women and girls

(01:11:08):
from education, work, and any public and political life. The
Afghan women activists and different human rights groups are calling
it a gender apartheid, which means that it is a
form of an apartheid or a systematic oppression simply based
on gender. That if you are born a girl, you
have a different life. You cannot even dream to be

(01:11:29):
in school or to work. So like, when I just
think about what's happening with girls education, how there is
a country where girls are banned from education and at
the same time there are conflicts, wars, and a genocide
happening where schools are bombed, where children are attacked, and

(01:11:53):
children are losing their future, like you know, from Sudan,
Congo all the way to Palestine, like what we have
witness happening in Gaza, like right in front of our eyes,
on our screens. It's it's like, it's terrifying. I just
simply wish for a future for girls where they can

(01:12:13):
live a dignified life with full access to education. And
we know that that cannot happen if we do not
address the problems or the injustices that are happening right
in front of our eyes. So these topics, you know,
whether it's about the wars and conflicts, or whether it's
about like climate related events like floods or other injustices,

(01:12:36):
we cannot separate them from how it's affecting gulls education.
And at the same time, like you know, we can,
we can, we can think differently. We can think about
investing in the future of girls. We can think about
investing in education or focusing on children as a way
to help us address these problems as well. So education

(01:12:56):
is like one of the most powerful and like best
solutions to a lot of the world inequalities injustices. So
that's you know, that's something that I advocate for. That's
the focus of my work. So these are like the
issues that I focus on.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
What are you seeing that's actually making a change in
places where women and young girls have been held back? Yeah,
what are you actually seeing is moving the needle and
creating the shifts that you're wanting.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
It is the local activists who are driving real change
on the ground. My father and I started as local
education activists in Swat Valley. I thought like nobody knew
what we were going through more than us. And I
feel the same about all of these other pressing problems
that we hear about in the world. You know, if

(01:13:44):
we're talking about Afghanistan, if you're talking about Gaza, if
you're talking about Nigeria, if you're talking about guls' education
challenges in Pakistan or other countries, we have to work
together with the local activists because they understand and the
problems and they understand the best solutions to those problems
as well. So, you know, when I started my foundation,

(01:14:07):
Malala Fund, like you know, I was ambitious to like
make change happen everywhere, but I had to really question myself,
what can help us make real change. I you know,
I have given many speeches and received many awards and
all of that. I can tell you that it's not
about one speech, even though like in history, we are
sort of taught like it was that one speech of
I have a dream that changed everything. No, I think

(01:14:28):
it's it's decades long work to shift narrative, to change policies,
to change the law. That is real change. And yes,
everything like adds up. You know, we cannot say that,
you know, one action is completely useless. It adds up.
But we have to have a bigger picture. So through

(01:14:48):
Malala Fund, we are investing in local education activists in Nigeria,
in Pakistan. We're also working in Ethiopia, Tanzania and Brazil,
and then Afghanistan is our priority country because of the
literal ban on girls education. We are providing support to
the local education activists who are giving alternative education to

(01:15:09):
girls right now. You know, we're thinking about ways to
help take education to the homes of girls when the
Taliban are not allowing them to be in school. This
is like our short term response. But we cannot you know,
see this as normal girls should be allowed to be
in school. So we are also supporting the Afghan women

(01:15:33):
activists who are doing advocacy leading these campaigns, asking leaders
to hold the Taliban accountable, and they're asking leaders to
codify gender apartheid, to recognize what's happening in Afghanistan as
a gender apartheid, to put more pressure on the Taliban,
to include women in the rooms where decisions about their
future are made, to put women's rights on the agenda,

(01:15:54):
and to change the reality that women and girls in
Afghanistan are living under. Like for me, if you ask me,
are we doing enough or not? For me? Like the
response is like, yes, we're doing something, But I think
about the girls who are out of school right now.
For as long as the band continues and girls are

(01:16:15):
not in school, I don't think we're doing enough. So
we constantly need to be doing more whatever is in
our capacity to help Afghan women and girls have the
future that they deserve. So supporting local education activists is
the most powerful way to drive real change.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
That's really helpful because I think so many people want
to help and they don't know where to start or
what the right thing to do is. And to hear
that from you, I think we'll give a lot of
people here the opportunity. A lot of our listeners are
people who want to serve, who want to support, who
want to help from across the world. And I guess
the Malala Fund and some of these places that you're

(01:16:52):
supporting would be great places to be able to contribute.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
This is the model of Malala Fund is like the
fundraising we do, we allocate that money into grants into
these local organizations who are working in all of the
countries that I mentioned, like Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and I
have visited the work of these organizations like I was
in Nigeria, and these activists are just incredible people. Some

(01:17:16):
of them have worked for decades. They have changed policies
in multiple states. Like five years ago, you know, a
girl was not guaranteed education beyond her primary level and
today you know she's guaranteed her secondary education. It's because
of the work of these activists. So they do an

(01:17:38):
incredible work. They have changed the lives of so many girls,
empowered them. And when I meet the girls, like you
can see the change happen like right in front of
your eyes. So it's like they're truly inspiring. And I
actually focus on supporting young women and gul activists. So
when we talk about activists, I'm like, we have to

(01:17:59):
support the girls because they're the ones who are actually
experiencing these problems and these challenges, and they can be
the best ones to actually advocate for their rights. So
I also focus on like giving grants and support to
the girls activists.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
That's incredible, Thank you for sharing that. And I really
hope that if I can be useful at all or
of service, then please let me know. I'd love to involved.
It's such a I have a younger sister. Yeah, I
feel like that I was raised by my mum and
took care of my younger sister, so I feel like
I've always grown up with that understanding and at least
a at least a feeling of that. And having grown

(01:18:40):
up in London, of course it was somewhat easier, but
at the same time you still see the discrepancies that exist.
And so yeah, if I can be useful, please let
me know. As I've been listening to you today, Malala,
I've been wondering, now, when you look back at the
attack and you look back on that moment, how do
you process it after the therapy, after the years away

(01:19:03):
after the seven years when it came back, Like, how
do you view that day and event now after all
this time.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
Funny enough, today is the ninth of October while we
are recording it, and this is the date when the
attack happened. So it's been thirteen years, do you know.
I live it as a normal day. I do not
want to think about it. It is really hard to

(01:19:33):
process this day because somehow this day is about the
gunman who attacked me. And that's why, like I just
I want to go. I want to stay, to go
as fast as it can, because I just do not
want to think about you know how you know a person,
a gunman could decide to target a fifteen year old girl.

(01:19:55):
It's really hard. It's not just about like what I experienced,
but it puts you in a place where you feel
less hope for humanity. But in moments like these, I
just try to live this day as normal as I
can and not think about it. And I just remind
myself of the millions of people who stood with me

(01:20:17):
and supported me. I think about the immense love that
I have received. I just think about the incredible activists
who have joined hands with me to help create a
better future for guls. I just think about the collective
work that we're all doing. So, you know, I just
reflect on how we can create a world where no

(01:20:42):
other child faces a bullet, how we can create a
world where every child can have the right to be
in school and play and read and learn and have
a normal childhood. So it's just a reminder of of
this commitment to creating a better future for for every

(01:21:04):
girl and every child out there. So that's that's what
I focus on.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
Yeah, I really appreciate how human and true that answer is,
because I think often we we externally we project a
glamorized view where people are like, oh yeah, that that
that was the day everything changed, and you know, my life.
I look back and it was one of the best
things that ever happened, because and it's like, you know,

(01:21:31):
just it's it's unhealthy, and it's it's wonderful to hear
it from a very human emotion of just like I
don't like to think about it. You know, it's it's
it's it's it's much more much more real to hear
you say that, And I think it's important. That's what
I think this book Finding My Way does is that
people get a real view on what activism actually looks like.

(01:21:52):
Because I think we have I think we're looking for heroes,
and because we're looking for heroes, we have a gloryfied
view of what activism looks like.

Speaker 1 (01:22:02):
Yeah, we see them as like a more global figure. Yeah,
global figures are also doing amazing things. But it's the
people who we have not heard of, we have not
seen on our screens that are changing the lives of people.
I have traveled to so many countries and met incredible
activists who have transformed the lives of guls by standing

(01:22:26):
up for their education. Like I was in Tanzania and
I learned about these incredible activists who themselves when they
were in school, you know, had to fight for staying
in school every day. And today they are changing the
lives of many girls out there. They're you know, giving

(01:22:47):
them bicycles because they have to walk for long distances
to have the safety and to make it to school sooner.
They are giving them safety in schools. They are changing
the laws which did not allow girls who became pregnant
and mothers at a young age to return to school.
They have like reversed that. They're like every girl should

(01:23:09):
be in school. When you look at these milestones, it
just gives you so much more hope. And I'm just
like so proud of the work that Afghan women activists
are doing. They're resilient, they're standing up through the Taliban,
and they are the future of Afghanistan. So I have

(01:23:29):
so much hope. You know, I know that the Taliban
would not be in power forever. It's the Afghan women
and girls who will be shaping the future of their country.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
Malala. Before we end, they usually I end with a
final five. Okay, Before we do that, I want to
ask you, is there anything that I haven't asked you
about that you wish you had a chance to share
here in this book.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
One other topic that I discuss is a sense of
belonging and I have really struggled with that because of
the way I had to leave Pakistan. I have been
to Pakistan many more times after that because I just
did not want to give up on seeing my home again.

(01:24:26):
I wanted to see the mountains, be by the river,
smell the fresh air, and being the place where I
grew up. But at the same time, I have now
met so many people around the world. I have seen
different countries, and I have found a sense of belonging
everywhere now. And I feel this sense of belonging when

(01:24:51):
I'm in the company of my family, when I'm chatting
with my friends and we are laughing out loud, or
when I am holding the hand of my husband. This
is sort of the sense of belonging that I feel.
And I think, you know, it's like when you when
you meet so many people, you just realize we're all one.

(01:25:11):
So I hope that we can promote more of that.
And I have always had this sense of like home
and I and I was always looking for home, like
you know, we we've always lived in rented buildings, so
I just never thought like what was my my real
and my true home. But now you know, for me,

(01:25:32):
like home, home is everywhere. And I have been on
this journey to make change happen for girls in the world.
And the one place that was always on my mind
was my own hometown in Pakistan, where I saw how
girls were still dreaming to finish their school and there

(01:25:56):
were there were no high school in the village where
my parents and were born. So when I started like
Malalafund and when I won the Nobel Peace prize. It
came with the prize money as well, So I said,
you know what, I Am going to make a school there.
And it's considered to be one of the most difficult
areas to work in because it's up in the mountains

(01:26:17):
and nobody wants to go and work there. But I said,
if we can make it happen there, I think we
can make it happen in any part of the country.
You know, we work. We worked on it for the
past seven eight years, and this year the first class graduated.
I went to Pakistan in March. I visited the school

(01:26:37):
for the first time. It was so different than what
I had seen on PowerPoint presentations and in photos, you know,
like just just seeing that in the middle of these
of these mountains there's this beautiful school where girls are learning,
they are playing, they are talking, they're laughing, they are

(01:26:58):
dreaming of having future for themselves. It was the most
rewarding feeling. And what I loved was the support that
they received. Like they played chess and it's like a
state of the art school. They have all of these
different like activities. It's an incredible school. But when I
saw the mental health office, that made me so happy.

(01:27:19):
And the girls were telling me how they get mental
health support. They sometimes do these different activities where they
just sing together and dance and sometimes just scream to
let it all out. So when I was just reflecting
on my own mental health journey and how I wished
we had more support, that I had more support, and

(01:27:40):
how you know we want more support for girls, it
just gave me so much joy that the girls were
getting the support that they were, that they deserved and
that they should have. So that was such a rewarding moment,
and it gives me hope that we can make education
a reality for every girl in every corner of the world,

(01:28:01):
and all those one hundred and twenty two million girls
who do not have access to education, we can do
something for them. We can ensure that every girl can
be in school, every girl can complete our education.

Speaker 2 (01:28:16):
First of all, congratulations, thank you. That's such a I
can't comprehend or conceive of just how momentous that is
for you to be able to open that school. And
what I love about your focus is that there's the
academic education, but there's also that value that you're putting
on the emotional education that all of these girls require,

(01:28:39):
so that they can truly achieve their full potential and
not be held back because the academic qualification gives them
access and as you said, creates more equality, but the
emotional education helps them protect themselves and really stand up
for themselves as well. So that's incredible. I mean, I
hope I can visit one there.

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):
Sounds like I would love to take you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:02):
Sounds like such a beautiful place to visit with it. Yeah,
it's incredible, Malala. It's been such a privilege and honor
to talk to you. Honestly, I really mean that I
always knew it would be, but meeting you and sitting
with you here face to face, getting the chance to
read your book early, it's it's beyond what I expected.
It's surpassed all my expectations. Just the depth, the grace,

(01:29:25):
the humor with which you carry yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
As well as you would give it five stars.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
So we end every episode of On Purpose with a
final five. These questions have to be answered in one word.
I always say one word to one sentence, but nobody does,
no one We can ignore it but one sentence maximum.
But Malala, these your final five. The first question is
what is the best advice you've ever heard or received.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
I love it when people make you feel that they're
there for you. You know, the words mean everything to me,
of course I and I really appreciate that, and I
also offer like words of support to the girls I meet.
And sometimes you know, like people roll their eyes like
you know, what can what can they do to a
girl's life when you tell them believe in yourself, follow

(01:30:13):
your dreams. But I remember hearing those words when I was,
you know, a child, and it meant everything to me
because some people give you this hope and this belief
that maybe you can do it too. So these things
mean a lot. But I think more than that, it's
you offering your support and making somebody feel that you
are there for them, they're not alone. I think actions

(01:30:36):
are just way more powerful.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Yeah, I can agree more love the answer. And you're
so right that these cliches are a cliche for a reason,
because you know, when you tell someone you believe in them,
sometimes someone needs to hear that the most in that moment,
and so it can't be undervalued. Question number two, what
is the worst advice you've ever had or received?

Speaker 1 (01:30:59):
The list is long, maybe getting a fringe cut wingch
like bangs. I did it in COVID time. I did
it in COVID time. No, it was terrible. It was
a terrible, terrible advice that I took from a friend.
And I wait for like two years for it to
return to the normal length.

Speaker 2 (01:31:22):
Yeah, that's so good.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):
Please don't get it if it's not for you.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
You know, that's so good. Question number three, what part
of yourself are you still learning to love? Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
I am so ambitious about seeing change happen in my lifetime,
especially when you receive like so much recognition and support.
I always feel like I have received more than what
I deserve. I mean, like getting a Nobel Peace Prize
at seventeen. I can work for the rest of my
life and still feel like I did not deserve it,

(01:32:02):
because still millions of girls are out of school. So,
you know, I would keep on questioning myself like can
we make the change happen? Can we make it sooner?
But I then remind myself that it's you know. As
much as we love to say one person changed the world,
even I myself said one book, one pen can change

(01:32:23):
the world. I think a person can start a change,
they can spark it. But it is the work of
collective activism that can help us see the change become
a reality. So I just constantly remind myself this. You know,
I'm at times disappointed, like why are these things happening?

(01:32:47):
But it's you know, Afghanistan, Gaza, one hundred and twenty
million girls out of school, child marriage, so many things.
But then I'm like, the work is in action, it
is happening. Keep supporting education activists, keep doing the advocacy,
keep empowering and uplifting girls' voices and stopping and you know,

(01:33:10):
like and doubting yourself is not the answer that you know,
you don't want to go still where everything stops, So
keep it going, accelerate it. But it's a constant conversation
that I have with myself.

Speaker 2 (01:33:26):
I'm taking a slight detour from the final five because
you said a couple of things that when you talk
about one hundred and twenty two million girls in the world,
you don't have access to education. What's the primary reason
for that? Well, how does that break down across?

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
Yeah, I mean, you know, there are many reasons for that.
On the one hand, it is the supply side issues,
So there are like not enough schools, there are not
enough safe schools, the quality of teaching is not good.
Distance to school is a big challenge, safety at school
is a big problem. So because of all of these reasons,

(01:34:00):
girl is not in school in many places, there are
not enough high schools for girls. So people have invested
enough in primary but have not invested enough in the
secondary education of guls. But then at the same time,
there are also like cultural and social norms where you know,
it's become a taboo where girls are not allowed to
be in school. We're seeing this happen in Afghanistan and

(01:34:23):
many other parts of the world where just education is
discouraged for girls. There are just too many restrictions that
girls face. But I do believe that, you know, there
is a way for us to work towards solving these problems,
and I think it has to start with investing in education.
We have to address the supply side issues first, because

(01:34:44):
you want to make a school before you go and
address the more like you know, the social stigma or
you know, how do we change the mentality and sometimes
those things just happen naturally. We have seen in many areas,
including my parents' village in Pakistan, where once the school
was built and a state of the art education was provided.

(01:35:08):
The norms started changing themselves because they saw that, they
saw the real power of education. How these girls are
like are you know, are having these different career paths
that they could achieve. They could not only be helping themselves,
but they could be helping their families as well. And
everybody realizes that it's actually a benefit to the community

(01:35:31):
as well. When a girl receives her education, there's economic empowerment,
there's more prosperity, powerty reduces, and you know, it's for
the benefit of everybody when girls are receiving an education,
including men and boys, it helps men and boys as
well when we have more women educated and empowered.

Speaker 2 (01:35:52):
Talk about that, because I think that's a challenge that's
being talked about in the West right now, at least
this idea in America that now, if you look, women
are more likely to graduate, they're qualifying more than men are.
And that's an interesting talking point. Talk to us about
how women being educated is actually good for men as well.

Speaker 1 (01:36:11):
Educated and empowered women actually are helping men in their
families as well. You know, I do not know about
like every country in every context, but I have seen
how this shift has happened where the boys were sort
of usually told like, you are supposed to be the breadwinner.

(01:36:31):
The girl is married off, but the boys are supposed
to be taking care of the family. But if the
girl is also able to get her education, she can
also contribute to the family. It reduces the burden that
is expected from the boys, and that everybody is contributing
to the family and everybody can look after each other
as well. We have also seen that when like more

(01:36:53):
women are educated and there are open conversations about you know,
the role of men and like challenging gender stereotypes, that
can help us have better you know, feminist men or
like men who appreciate women's rights and they're like, so,

(01:37:13):
you know, we need we need better sons, we need
better brothers, we need better husbands and fathers as well.
So you know, I think working for girl's education is
sort of a way in which we can have more
productive and helpful conversations and see this cultural shift. And
at the same time, like when we talk about investing
in guls education and talk about policy change that also

(01:37:37):
directly benefits boys education, it's never about like invest in
girls schools only it's about invest in every school, but
let's come up with gender inclusive policy, so we are
addressing the problems that specifically cause girls to drop out
or that can help us and show that a girl
makes it to the next year in her school can

(01:38:00):
also help us. You know, when it's generally inclusive, it
can also address the problems that boys are also facing.

Speaker 2 (01:38:06):
Wonderful answer. How how prevalent is child marriage still?

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
Yeah, I mean child marriage is still a big issue
in many countries and sometimes you know, we sort of
see news how the law is also being reversed. I
think I heard about it happening in I think Iraq,
which is like really crazy. I think it should it
should be a law in every country where, like you know,

(01:38:35):
a child should not be married off. It should be
just illegal, it should be banned, and people who do
it should be held accountable for that. And at the
same time, we need to sort of change change and
challenge the culture around it as well. So you know,
using storytelling, TV shows and stuff like that can also
help us to to change to change these perspectives. But

(01:38:57):
it's it's an it's an issue that is affecting many girls,
including in Pakistan, India and other parts of the world.

Speaker 2 (01:39:03):
Yeah, I can agree with you more. Thank you for
those two parts. I'll put into the episode accordingly. I
took a little detO question number four of the final
five what does peace look like for you today?

Speaker 1 (01:39:17):
So when you asked about peace, I just think about
world peace immediately, because I have lived under a time
when we used to hear gunshots and suicide attacks and bombings,
and you know, like every ten minutes you would hear
a sound and you were just worried, like whose house

(01:39:38):
has been targeted? Who has lost their life? So when
somebody asks me about peace, I don't think about like,
you know, peace at heart or you know, being at
peace with yourself. I usually think about world peace, and
you know, I just I hope bombings, I hope wars stop.
You know, we have to speak out against it. You

(01:40:03):
know what I have experienced personally, and and how I
have seen other girls and boys being targeted at school,
and and you know how they have lost their loved ones,
how they themselves have been injured. I met Palestinian refugees
in Egypt just a few weeks ago, and I just saw,
like you know, they were injured, they had lost a sibling,

(01:40:26):
They were separated from their family members. It is just
heartbreaking how absence of peace is taking away the right
to life from from so many people. They cannot live
a normal life that we all, you know, most of
us are are our privileged to have. So when I

(01:40:49):
am at moments when i I'm just like looking outside the
window and I and I see a normal life, I'm like, Okay,
you know there are normal cars, and people are walking around,
and and people are chatting and laughing, and there's no bombing,
no firing. Buildings are not destroyed. I just feel grateful,

(01:41:14):
but I wish that for everybody. I think it has
to stop. These are all human made things. They're not
happening itself. These are human made. We have to really
question ourselves about the hatred that is created, these hateful
ideologies that are created, how people are being dehumanized, Like
the dehumanization of people is a very big problem. That's

(01:41:34):
where it begins, and that's what worries me the most
when I think about, like, you know, what's happening to
women and gults in Afghanistan. They're being considered as second
class humans. When we think about these different wars that
are happening or what's happening in Gaza. It's you know,
it's like the dehumanization. So you know, I hope that

(01:41:56):
people see each other as equal. We see you know,
our we see ourselves in in in other people, and
we you know, stand up to this. You know, these
arms and these like violent tools that are being spread
in the world because it's it's it's a big problem.

(01:42:18):
So I wish for real world peace and then that
would give me peace and I would feel more at
peace with my with myself.

Speaker 2 (01:42:26):
What would you say to a young girl who looks
at the state of the world and doesn't feel hopeful
right now?

Speaker 1 (01:42:33):
I would tell her, you know, I felt that many times.
I still feel it many times, but then I remind
myself that there's something that I can do today. I
feel that we all have the capacity to drive for change.
So sometimes we want the world to change, we want

(01:42:55):
somebody else to make it happen, but we cannot wait
for it to happen itself or for somebody else to
do it for us. Sometimes it's us who can be
that change maker. So I don't want you to lose hope.
So I don't want you to lose hope, and I

(01:43:17):
want you to know that you could be the change maker.
You could shift things and you could drive change.

Speaker 2 (01:43:25):
And fift and final question, we asked this to every
guest who's ever been on the show. If you could
create one law that ever in the world had to follow,
what would it be?

Speaker 1 (01:43:36):
One law? You know, I'm not like that aggressive. I'm
not authoritarian. Though I have a lot of laws and
rules for my husband and my brothers and my dad,
a lot of rules for men. Maybe we should just
have just rules for men who cause a lot of problems.
I mean, I you know, I do see the significance

(01:44:00):
of creating laws on the one hand, because you know,
what's happening in Afghanistan is beyond just gender discrimination, and
if we look at the current laws in the international system,
it cannot recognize the scale of the oppression that is
happening there. So that's exactly why Afghan women activists are

(01:44:22):
advocating for it to be recognized as a gender apartheid
in the Crime against Humanity Treaty, which basically means is
that like countries should not just be allowed to look
away or normalize relationships with the Taliban, or just simply
condemn it and just feel like, Okay, you know, we
have done our job. That countries should be obliged to

(01:44:43):
respond and countries should be held accountable to respond, and
they cannot be allowed to normalize relationships with oppressive regimes
like the Taliban. So I think, you know better laws
are really important. We just need more protection for guls' rights.
And right now it is a crime for girls to

(01:45:04):
be learning in Afghanistan. Let's process that they're punished if
they disobey this rule, because the Taliban are abusing their
power and they're punishing women, putting them in prisons if
they disobey any of their absurd rules and restrictions that
they have imposed. But on the other hand, if we
look at our international law system, it is not recognizing

(01:45:28):
what the Taliban are doing as a crime. I think
the ban on education in itself should be recognized as
an international crime and the Taliban should be held accountable
for that. So I do believe that there is a
huge significance in creating laws that can protect the right
to education for girls and that can protect the rights

(01:45:48):
of women and vulnerable communities. At the same time, I
also think it's about you know, how we change as
people and how we do things differently, and how we
challenge ourselves. You know, we don't need we don't necessarily
need laws to be acting differently. Like you know, the

(01:46:08):
most powerful thing is free will, and we all have
the free will to be better, to be doing the
right thing. We don't necessarily need laws. So sometimes I
just also think about us doing better and just being
more responsible, standing up for what is right, standing against injustices,

(01:46:30):
and sharing solidarity with those who are oppressed and who
need our support.

Speaker 2 (01:46:37):
Melala, thank you so much for.

Speaker 1 (01:46:40):
It wasn't one word right now, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:46:42):
Brilliant is thank you so much for writing this book
Finding My Way, Thank you for coming and sharing it
with our community here today, and thank you for having
the courage to continue to find courage in all your
different transitions and phases of life. I thank you. It
feels like you've lived in different lives in you know,
the short span that you've been here on Earth. But

(01:47:04):
your words, your actions, your work affects millions and millions
and millions of people every day. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:47:10):
I just want to say one final thing that you know,
we talked about a lot of things I have talked
about many topics, but one thing that I feel people
don't know about me is that I am a very
funny person. Yes, so I want people to know that.
You know, in this book, of course, I'm talking about
very important topics, but humor is something that has helped

(01:47:33):
me through life in many ways, and humor is everything
to me. So I laugh through many things. I laugh
about many things, and so you know, you will learn
a lot about this book, but you will also be uh,
you know, you know, laughing with me or you know,
you yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:52):
Or at me, because you know, the first thing Malala
said to me when she came in the room today,
she was like, your wife's a lot cooler than you.
And I was like, yeah, my wife's a and she goes, yeah,
you don't even need to say that out loud. I
was like, wow, I'm being roasted already.

Speaker 1 (01:48:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:48:05):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
I think your humor shone through in so many moments
today and it's a beautiful part of who you are,
and I'm so glad you're sharing it, and I'm so
glad you're showing us what a full human looks like,
you know, beyond the symbol, beyond a role you play,
but what it means to have feelings and relationships. Yes,

(01:48:26):
in their lives.

Speaker 3 (01:48:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:48:27):
No, This is me reintroducing myself and the most important
thing is being true to yourself. That is the most
important message from me.

Speaker 2 (01:48:35):
Thank you aller. I'm so grateful, Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:48:38):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:48:38):
If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my
conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up on how
to stay with your partner when they're changing, and the
four check ins you should be doing in your relationship.
We also talk about how to deal with relationships when
they're under stress.

Speaker 2 (01:48:57):
If you're going through something right now with your partner,
uh or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you.

Speaker 4 (01:49:03):
No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new
technology and we've just taken it in hookline and Sinker,
and we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll
just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their mind's
never sleeping.

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