Naomi Osaka: “I Used to Think Losing Meant My Life Was Over” Sharing Her Truth of Navigating Shame, Public Pressure & How She Found REAL Self-Worth

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What I was dealing with at the time, feeling ashamed,
going against everything an athlete stood for. After I pulled
out of the French Open, I flew back home to
la and I just stayed in my house. But I
didn't want to see the outside world ranked.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
As number one in the world and women's singles, say.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Four time Brand Slam tennis champ Mayomi Osaka, Your.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Dad wanted to train you because he was reading about
Richard Williams and what he'd done with the Williams sisters.
How aware were you of that when you were growing up.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Me and my sister and my dad on a tennis
court at least eight hours during the day. Yeah. I
began to think to myself, like, it would be very
weird if I didn't make it.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Your vulnerable sharing of your mental health journey. What does
it feel like looking back on that?

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Honestly, I'm a little bit embarrassed on how I went
about it.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
What was the process like going from giving birth to
then getting back on call.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Maybe seven to ten days I started training again. Wow,
my whole identity as I knew it was being a
tennis player. I would value what my value was as
a person on whether I won or lost?

Speaker 2 (01:14):
What was the feeling like when you won your first
Grand Slam?

Speaker 1 (01:18):
When I was growing up, I had dreams of playing Serena,
and in my first Grand Slam final, it felt like
a dream came true. I was just reading comments of
people saying that I didn't deserve to win.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
The number one Health and Wellness podcast, Jay Setty Jay Chetty, Holy,
Hey everyone, Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you
come to become a happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's
guest is someone that I've been dying to talk to
for quite a few years now, ever since she opened

(01:54):
up about her own mental health journey. Today's guest is
Naomi Osaka, a four time I'm Grand Slam champion and
was the first Asian to hold the world number one
ranking for twenty one weeks. Beyond tennis, She's a global
advocate for mental health social justice and was named one
of Time's one hundred most Influential People twice and now

(02:17):
has her production company, Hannah Kuma, along with her skin
care line Kinlow. Please, welcome to the show, Naomi Asaka. Naomi,
It's wonderful to have you here.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Thank you. It's nice to be here.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
I really meant it. I've been wanting to talk to
you for so long. I thought your open sharing and
vulnerable sharing of your mental health journey was so brave
and courageous. What does it feel like looking back on
that three years now?

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Honestly, I'm a little bit embarrassed on how I went
about it, but I'm really glad that I did open up.
It created a pathway for more discussions to be had,
and I also feel like athletes were seen as more
then just I guess stone cold in a way.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
So yeah, why embarrassed though?

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Now I don't know, Like I just since I go
on things like I go about things on a whim
a little bit, I sometimes make decisions without fully thinking
them through all the way because it's such an emotional thing.
And when I was in that moment, like I was
living it and I think everyone could see that I

(03:25):
was clearly living it. But I feel like maybe I
could have been a little bit better with my words
or how I presented myself.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, I think it came across really beautifully, and for
whatever it's worth, I felt that it really gave so
many more athletes the permission to also open up to
also share how they were feeling. And you're so right.
I think it humanized a lot of athletes that are
often just seen as these high performing beings and then
you don't realize that they have a conversation in their mind.

(03:54):
You just said there, and you were saying earlier that
sometimes you do think on a whim or sometimes you
wing it. Where does that come from? Is that from
your childhood? Did that start early?

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Maybe it's a personality thing, but people don't know. I'm
very impulsive actually, and I'm just very quick to like
want to get things done. So yeah, I do think
it's a childhood trait. And maybe my mom can tell
me more stories about that. I heard her tell a
story about how when we were younger, me and my sister,

(04:26):
she took us to a fountain and all of a sudden,
I just jumped in the fountain. So there's probably a
bunch more stories like that that she could tell me.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, And where has that trait kind of got you
in trouble? And when has it actually been a really
helpful trait.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
The moments that it's gotten me in trouble, people know
about those moments, but I think in times that it's
really helped. I feel it's helped a lot on the
tennis court, just because I often do put a little
bit of pressure on myself to be I guess flashy
in a way, like I want to make it entertaining
for the people that watch, and sometimes in my mind,

(05:03):
I have this image of Mofie. He's like one of
my favorite tennis players, and I think, you know, maybe
I should do something like that. Some of those shots
work and some of them don't, but I think it's
fun to try regardless.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, definitely. It's so interesting hearing about athletes speaking about
being impulsive and being you know, because I feel like
so much of the sport to us as outsiders, look
so strategic and intentional and focused. How do you balance
that creativity and impulsiveness with more focus and planning and intentionality.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
It's something that I've just learned throughout playing the sport.
I've been playing since I was three, so it's kind
of ingrained in me. And I feel like every tennis
player has their own I guess signature or blueprint or
formula that they just grew up with. And some people
you see it a lot, like you can kind of

(05:56):
tell that they're the creative people like anstubbur and then
some other people you can just tell that they're focused on,
you know, the plays that will lead them to victory.
So I find myself being kind of a half and
half person.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, you moved from Japan to America when you're four
years old?

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Three?

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Three? Okay, what if anything do you remember from that time.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
I remember my sister kicking me in the head.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
Really wow, that's impressive.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
And I also remember going to the park a lot.
I don't know if you're familiar with Japanese food, but
my mom used to get a sneakuman so they're like
steamed buns. And yeah, just just having a fun time
in Japan as a kid.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
And then what was it like coming to America at
that time and settling in Does that feel like a
natural transition or were there certain learnings that you had
to have?

Speaker 1 (06:52):
From my memories, like, it was pretty easy. I don't
think I was too attached to Japan. I wasn't too
thrilled to be in America either, but it's just the
life that I had. I heard that my sister had
a tougher time because she was older, and you know,
she only spoke Japanese. So at school, this is a

(07:12):
funny story, which is kind of makes me a little
mad now, but it's just something that happened. Apparently, me
and my sister we only spoke Japanese, and my teacher
told my mom to stop speaking to us in Japanese.
So that's kind of how I forgot most of it.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, so you don't speak Japanese anymore.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
I do, but like to people i'm comfortable with, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Right, So wait, your teacher told your mom not to
talk to you and your sister in Japanese so that
you get more comfortable with English, And why why does
that make you mad? Now?

Speaker 1 (07:45):
I feel like being bilingual is such a good trade.
And also, we went to English school like Americans, so
they spoke English there anyway, so we would have eventually
gotten to learn how to speak English.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah. And language is such a beautiful way to preserve culture. Yeah,
and it preserves an intimacy as well. Like you said that,
people you're close to you'll still speak in Japanese, and
I feel like there's an intimacy when you're speaking your
own language with someone, right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
I also feel like there's a way to convey things
that sometimes I can't convey it in English, so I
have to say it in Japanese and there's like a
fluctuation or something like that that it can't be translated.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, I agree with that. I feel like that way
about Hindi. So Hindi's obviously the national language of India,
and I feel like there are so many beautiful poetic
words in Hindi that if I try and say them
in English, they just sound basic. Yeah, but in Hindi
they're really spectacular. So no, I can relate to that.
Your dad, at least from what I read, your dad
wanted to train you because he was reading about Richard

(08:52):
Williams and what he'd done with the Williams sisters. And
I think at one point he even said that I
had a blueprint. I knew what I needed to do,
and I know I had to follow it. What was
it like living that blueprint and with your dad? How
aware were you of that when you were growing up?

Speaker 1 (09:08):
I heard of that story later on also, But yeah,
I think living in that blueprint was something that I
just grew used to. It was kind of just me
and my sister and my dad on a tennis court
for like at least eight hours during every day. Yeah,
So it was kind of one of those things where

(09:28):
I began to think to myself, like it would be
very weird if I didn't make it. And I had
no choice too, because this was, you know, this was
my life and I was just so dedicated towards it.
But I find it really funny that he said that
there is an exact blueprint.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Have you ever asked him about any questions about that
time when he was training you for eight hours a
day and what was going through his mind and what
were his emotions.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
My dad's kind of a stoic guy, so he doesn't
really talk as often, and when he does, it's like
to randomly crack a joke. The family all had a
dream and we all were trying our best to achieve it,
and it's kind of interesting to look back on it
because it wasn't that long ago.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Did you ever watch King Richard with your family?

Speaker 1 (10:15):
I watched it by myself on the plane, and I
thought it was really fascinating because it did feel a
little familiar in some parts, and I think it's just
like the goal of the whole family just trying their best,
and it was really touching.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
For me, was it something that really brought you all
closer together when you were young?

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I think you know, But my family wasn't that big.
It was just me and my sister and my mom
and my dad, and growing up we lived in New York,
so I was around my grandma and my cousins at
the time. But then we moved to Florida when I
was like eight or so, and then we didn't have
any family members. I would definitely say we were extremely close.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Apart from your amazing fashion, how did Japan culture and
Haitian culture, how is it influenced and inspired you from
a mindset perspective or even from a lifestyle perspective. What
are the parts of it that still live and breathe
in your life today.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
It's interesting to be asked questions like that because I
feel like it's so hard to explain. But I think
one of the biggest things that people may not know
about Haiti or Haitian culture, I don't even know if
it's a culture, just everyone's personality is like that, but
they'll give even though they have nothing to give. I

(11:33):
don't want to say it's one of my favorite parts,
but it's one of the most touching parts whenever I
go to Haiti, like everyone's just so excited to interact
and you know, v as hospitable as possible and just
show their love and appreciation for people coming to Haiti
and people that love Haiti. So I try to incorporate

(11:54):
that in my own way, in my own personality. And
then of course for the Japanese side, I think this
one's going to be a little funny, but I think
Japan's very like strict, not strict, but like very prompt.
And I think one of the funniest things was that
when one of my trainers said that, you know, it's

(12:17):
funny that you go to different countries and the bus
time is like ten, and the bus can leave at
ten or three, but in Japan, when it's at ten,
it leaves at ten. So yeah, trying to be very
on task.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, No, I love learning about different cultures or as
you said, communities, traits. And I mean that what you
just said about giving even when you don't have something
to give, I mean that's really powerful and really beautiful,
and it's tough as well. It's hard as well when
when someone's actually having to go through that and that
generosity It's so interesting, isn't it? Like I always think

(12:54):
we think when I have more than I'll give more,
and actually it's almost like, no, if I can give
what I have today, then I'll continue to give. And
I remember being exposed to that culture in India as well,
and I think Asian and South Asian places definitely places
I visited have some of that culture, and the orderly
and promptness and the discipline definitely makes sense. So you've

(13:17):
got that perfect ying and yang of being impulsive and disciplined.
What's the most disciplined thing you do every day? Right now?

Speaker 1 (13:25):
This is going to sound a little unhinged. Not eating rice,
which is really difficult for me. I just feel like,
as an Asian and Caribbean person, like rice is such
as staple in both foods and both cultures. But I'm
trying to be really strict with myself and really disciplined,

(13:45):
and not eating any rice is definitely the most disciplined
thing that I have to do right now.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
I love that. And is rice usually like a daily
like usually like a daily stable?

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, you know, like a couple spoonfuls here and there.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, So now, no rice? How long has it been.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
It's honestly been a couple of weeks, so I'm hoping
to keep this up until Australia.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
That's amazing, that's awsome. I know what that feels like
when you're like trying to swear off my big thing, sugar.
I'm just like constantly trying to stay up sugar, and
it's so hard because I've been addicted to sugar in
the past. Now, so you have a sweet tooth, I
have a big sweet teeth. Like you put anything with
chocolate in front of me and it will be devoured.
It's like my favorite thing in the world. But I've

(14:31):
been building a healthier relationship out with sugar. It's been
pretty tough, but I've got there as well. And what
about the other side. What's something that you kind of
get spontaneously the urge to do right now? What are
some of the more impulsive things you end up doing
right now?

Speaker 1 (14:46):
One of my favorite things to do is like go
for a drive at night time. Sometimes when I do that,
people like to race, so sometimes I may or may
not potentially end up racing them as well. I don't know.
It's kind of one of my guilt pleasures because I
feel like you get to see a crowd of people
that you don't typically see, especially on the LA highways. Yeah,

(15:07):
I would say that's probably one of the last impulsive
things I've done.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
That is brilliant. I'm so glad to ask the question,
do you have a really cool car? As well?

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Potentially.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
I love that I'm the person who avoids the race.
So I used to be like that my teenagers. I
loved it if someone wanted to race me. And it's
so funny because I have a much faster car today
than I did when I was a teenager. But I
remember when I was a teenager, I would race anyone,
even if I was driving my little Vauxhall Courser, which
is like if I showed you a picture of the
car later on, you'd laugh. It's like this really old model.

(15:40):
I'd race anyone. I don't care what they were driving.
Now I avoid the race. Do you usually win?

Speaker 1 (15:46):
I tell myself I have no choice. So honestly though,
I do feel you on like avoiding the race now
because I think as I've gotten older, I've become a
lot more safe. Like for example, when I was young,
turbulence on airplanes used to excite me. I used to
think of them as like free roller coaster rides. But

(16:09):
now I do get a little worried sometimes because I
think of my daughter and all the things that I
want to do with her when she grows up. So yeah,
when people start driving past a certain level of crazy,
then I'm like, Okay, you got it.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Do these people know that they're racing against Naomasaka or no,
You're like tinted windows, they can't tell who they're racing.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
My windows are very very tint so.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
They have no idea that they just got beat by.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
They wouldn't be able to see me, they would see
the dust.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
So you're like, You're like, they're not even close. Yeah,
I love That's that's so funny. It's amazing how there's
certain things that we all need as an outlet and
to be impulsive about and just kind of let go.
And do you think that when you were working up
to win you know, the first us open that you

(16:58):
did it like twenty years old? Was your life very
different then? Like could you have impulse or was the
preparation for that so strategic and focused and develop? What
was that like.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
Every day kind of looked the exact same, to the
point where I could predict where I'm going to be
at a certain minute. So in that regard, my life
has definitely changed a lot. Preparation is pretty much the same,
the will to win is the same, and I would
think the impulses are also the same. The outlets are

(17:32):
just different.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Oh interesting, Yeah, how did you express your impulses at
that time? How did they come through? And how are
they alive?

Speaker 1 (17:40):
I used to be chronically online, so I used to
play a lot of video games. I used to read
a lot of manga or fake online shop. So I've
put things in my cart and just never buy them,
And I would say, yeah, I guess the impulse would
be to like buy them, but yeah, I think you know. Now,

(18:04):
obviously I don't play games as much because I don't
have that much time for it. But yeah, how does.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
That work when you fill your car up with stuff
and then don't buy it? Like, walk me through that.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
It's like you go into a mall in your window shopping.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
So I find it funny sometimes because I like to
go to stores. I have like vintage or like one
of one items, and I get so mad when people
buy what's in my cart, like, wow, how dare you?

Speaker 2 (18:34):
But you weren't going to buy it anyway, No, but.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
It's nice to know it's there in case I do
have an impulse.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
I love that. What was the feeling like when you
won your first Grand Slam at the US Open such
a young age, Like, what was that feeling like? I
think I even have this picture like when you see that?
Can you see that? But I can sell what was
that feeling like? You know, I.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Think when I was growing up, I had dreams of
playing Serena and in my first Grand Slam final, if
even a Grand Slam final, so it felt like a
dream came true. But at the same time, like all
the circumstances surrounding that was not a dream come true.
And it was I don't know, like some people didn't

(19:37):
think it was like a clean victory, and I felt
like I had to constantly prove people wrong, and you know,
that situation was a little unfortunate. But I'm glad I
won the Australian Open right after that. But in that moment,
it was a very very strange mixture of emotions.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, it's so hard when what was it? It was happening
recently actually, I don't know if you follow soccer at all,
And I'm a big soccer fan and Pep Guardiola who's
the manager of Manchester City and he's probably one of
the best managers of all time in the sport of
soccer internationally, and he's on his worst run ever. So

(20:17):
he's just lost seven games in a row and he's
never done that in his entire career. In his whole career,
he's never lost more than I think two games in
a row. He was the first time his team he's
a manager, has lost seven games in a row. And
the opposition on the weekend literally just this weekend that
just went by, they were shouting, you're going to get
sacked in the morning, and so you know, and he

(20:39):
was reacting to that. He's truly like he's in the
top two discussion of the best coaches in soccer of
all time, and he was receiving that treatment. And it's
really interesting because you watch even someone like again I'm
using soccer examples because that's a sport I know well,
but I mean even Novak, who you know is a
good friend, he's been on the show, Like the amount
of stress that he was from the fans and the

(21:01):
audience as well, like he hasn't had the easiest road.
What did you turn to in that moment? Because you've
just won something, but there's all that feeling. How do
you kind of reconcile that now when you're looking back?
How have you kind of processed that?

Speaker 1 (21:14):
You know what's funny is if you asked me this
like three years ago, I definitely would have started crying.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Oh wow.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
For a very long time, I didn't process it because
I didn't want to. Just I'm the type of person
that I'll keep my head down and just keep working
hard and you know, hopefully I'll get to where I
want to be. But for that being the first Grand
Slam and that kind of being the introduction into like
the world for non tennis fans, it was definitely really

(21:44):
difficult for me. And I think no amount of media
training could have like processed me for that.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Why would you have cried three years ago?

Speaker 1 (21:54):
I just have this very vivid memory of winning, going
back to my hotel, and the US Open is special
because you kind of get back to your hotel if
you have a night match at like one am or
something like that.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Crazy.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, doing treatment because I was going to
go play a tournament in Tokyo right after that, and
I was just reading comments with people saying that I
didn't deserve to win, or like I didn't win fairly,
and I don't know, it just it just really sucked.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's really fair. I mean, I don't
think that would ever be a good feeling. It's the worst.
Did you speak to Serena after that as well?

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, she's actually really kind and sent me a message
and I sent her a message back. But I always
get so starstruck by her, Like I wrote my third
grade report on her.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
I just remember getting the message and being like no way,
and then sending a response and immediately putting it on
mute because I just couldn't handle.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
What was the report about.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
I think the school was asking like who's your role model?
And why is the person your role model and stuff
like that.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
What did you write? Do you remember?

Speaker 1 (23:11):
I mean I think I wrote, like my role model Serena,
and then I had like cut out like a little
printed photo of her because she's the greatest tennis player
of all time and she know, she's like an amazing
role model figure for me and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
I love that. And then did you guys have you
guys met since then and Spruke and since then as.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, we've met since then, we've also played since then.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
What was that like playing her again and then meeting
her again after that?

Speaker 1 (23:40):
I think I've played her like two or three times
after that, And the most recent time was like the
second Australian Open that I won. But prior to the
Australian Open, we were having like the COVID lockdown in Australia,
so I was a part of the same group she was,

(24:02):
and her daughter was there and I'm still super starstruck.
I think I'll always be starstruck by her. But she
asked me if I could take a photo with her daughter,
and I felt so honored. I was like, Wow, of
course I will.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
That's awesome. Well, what a special feeling. I love that
for your hero to then be asking you to take
a picture of their daughter, that's pretty epic. How does
that feel to young Naomi?

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Very unbelievable. But also now after having my daughter, I
realized how important it is to have good role models
and I'm I don't know, I'm glad that I potentially
am one to somebody.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, I think you are to a lot of people.
Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from
our sponsors. Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now
back to the discussion. I think it's the best feeling
in the world when your heroes live up to the
versions of them you had in your mind. I feel
like I've been so fortunate to meet so many of

(25:02):
my heroes, and you know, they've lived up to it.
And I feel like I'm always excited to meet my heroes. Now,
I know that old cliche of never meet your heroes,
I'm not sure. I think meeting some of them has
been one of the best experiences, some of the best
experiences of my life. At least sounds like yours too.
How's your life changed for you from the inside becoming

(25:25):
a mother? And you know, like you said, just living
this discipline focused every day kind of looks like the
same building up to win, you know, four Grand Slams,
and now you know, living a very different life. I'm
guessing every day is definitely not the same. Like, what's
changed for you? How's that affected your identity and even
self perception?

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Becoming a mother has definitely changed my life a lot. Internally.
I feel I've become a lot more patient and also
in a weird way, more care free. I think there
is a lot of things that used to bother me
in the past, or I used to hold on to,
and now I just kind of see them as I

(26:07):
don't know, pointless. Maybe pointless is a little bit too
big of a word.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
But like what.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
You always put me on the spot, you said you
like winging it, So I'm giving you lots of Every
time I ask you one of these questions, you give
an amazing answers, so that I'm trying right now.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
The hardest shot I give you, the better you give
it back.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
So I thank you won this rally.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
I'll take that. I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
One of the biggest things for me was that my
whole identity as I knew it, was being a tennis player.
So I would I guess value my life for what
my value was as a person on whether I won
or loss. And now I don't know. I'm not saying
being a mother is my entire being, but I see

(26:58):
that there's so much more to and there's so much
that I'm able to I guess give to another person
in regards to how they feel. Like my daughter, she
smiles so much when I'm around her, and it just
makes my day, so I no longer really feel like,
you know, my life is over if I lose a
tennis match or something like that.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
It's actually quite profound to hear that, because I can
imagine that when you work that hard at something and
you become as good as you are at that thing,
it becomes really natural for you to put all your
self worth and all your self esteem into it, and
then now your whole life evolves around it. The way
people speak to you, the way people introduce you, the

(27:39):
way you know, every conversation becomes about that. How have
you detached from like being ranked number one and then
being like, well, now my life is moving, Like has
that been a part of that? How do you detach
and disconnect from that kind of strong identity and how
it was made.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
I think it's been a series of learning and I
can't necessarily name to you what happened, because in some
ways I feel like I just woke up one day
and this clicked, or I just woke up another day
and another thought clicked. I feel like I've been really
fortunate to have, I guess, people that care about me,

(28:19):
and they've kind of reinforced the idea that you know,
this isn't the main factor of your life. Yes, this
has helped you, like be in positions like sitting here
right now talking to you, but it's not your entire
self worth.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah. I think that's such a powerful message. And I
hope everyone here is that, you know, loud and clear.
I think it's so easy. You're reminding me of an
episode we did with Kevin Hart, and Kevin was talking
about how at one point he just thought he was
like unstoppable and unbeatable, and it led to him making
so many bad decisions. And he was talking about how

(28:56):
the best thing he did was not in these words
but paraphrasing, like embracing his own insignificance, like recognizing that
one day he wouldn't be who he is and that
that would be okay too. And it's so interesting because
I feel like we're all trying to get to that
place that we're all trying to get to this place
of like I'm already enough and I'm okay. And you

(29:20):
I feel like writing and journaling is such a big
part of who you are, Like even hearing about your
school report and then the post you put up like
three days ago, and when I read that, I just thought, Wow,
you're so reflective, You're so thoughtful, Like, is that a
habit that you've had. Obviously that was something you shared publicly,
but just that habit of being able to explain your
thoughts and connect them in that way, is that something

(29:42):
you do often? Is that a habit you've built over time?

Speaker 1 (29:45):
I think it started when I was an early teenager maybe,
And ironically I used to hate writing because I remember
my English teachers kind of failing me almost because my
grammar was always incorrect. So I don't know. I used

(30:05):
to try to avoid things that I knew I wasn't
good at, and writing was one of them. But I
think one day I wanted to get my words out.
And I'm not, honestly not the greatest speaker. I kind
of title myself that. So I wanted to get my
words out in the way that I wanted to convey myself,
and writing was the easiest tool for that. So it

(30:28):
just kind of built up over the years.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Do you write daily? Is journaling like a daily practice?

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah? I try to write daily. I try to write
my thoughts, what I feel, or what I'm grateful for,
what I've learned this day.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Wow, did do you jenneal in the morning or the evenings?
Have you already jenneled today or it kind of.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Changes, like depending on my mood, depending if I'm running
out the door and I'm wait for practice.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Was what you shared three days ago part of your
journaling practice? And then how do you decide when you
write something whether to share it publicly or whether to
hold it in for yourself?

Speaker 1 (30:59):
So what I wrote three days ago was like a
little snippet of a book that I'm writing that I
don't even know if I am doing a disservice to
books by calling it a book, but I would say
that's it's kind of my ramblings. I tend to think
things through in my own head a lot, and it's

(31:21):
definitely much clearer for me if I write it down
and see it, And I don't know. I think the
way I decide to post it publicly or share it
publicly is if I feel internally it would help someone.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
You should definitely write that book. It definitely I found
it to be very introspective. But at the same time,
when you sometimes read someone's journal entry, it only makes
sense to them, but it made sense to me too,
and so I think being able to relate to it
in that way is what made it a dialogue. Like

(31:53):
I felt like I was invited into the conversation and
invited into what you were trying to share. And I
think the first line of what you said was you.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Know the cringe just coming.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
There's no cringe. So you said, growing up, I never
really liked myself, and then you went on to say, well,
that statement is bold. I also wouldn't say I disliked
myself either, and I found that really interesting. I want
to hear your thoughts on that, because I never thought
my life was easy, but I never thought my life
was hard. I just knew it was my life. That's

(32:25):
how I've always felt growing up. So when you said that,
that's what I thought of. Why were you intrigued in
sharing that and what were you reflecting on there?

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Honestly, I was kind of reflecting on what you just said,
Like growing up, we would be constantly on the tennis court,
and I would watch other kids go to summer vacation
or not have to shovel the snow off the court
to hit tennis falls, and I would always think, dang,
like I kind of want to be someone else, but

(32:54):
at the same time, like I love my mom, I
love my dad, I love my sister. I kind of
like my life, you know. I think it's a really
weird like thought process. And I think especially growing up
and seeing tabloids seeing pop singers, thinking wow, like their

(33:15):
life must be so perfect, I'd rather prefer to be
them than to be me right now, and then eventually
getting to the point where you like mature and you
grow up and you're so grateful for the life that
you have. So it was kind of accumulation of years.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
Can you sing.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
If we're doing karaoke and it has to be a
very specific song, Well, what's your karaoke sign? I really
love Bohemian rhap City.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
Oh wow, Okay, that's not an easy one.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
That Okay, we're gonna have to go karaoke.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Okay, only in Tokyo.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
Though only in Tokyo. What are the karaoke places like
in Tokyo?

Speaker 1 (33:53):
I think they're really fun, Like some people take it
very seriously, so I've seen videos on line of people
being in there for hours just practicing their vocal trainings.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
I made a karaoke bar to hear this. I feel
like I'm mentally scarred from going to karaoke because I
worked at a company. After I worked at a company
in twenty thirteen and as part of the training, we
went to Chicago and we went to karaoke bar. So
there's a bunch of Brits in Chicago at this karaoke
bar and all the girls were doing karaoke. The guys

(34:27):
were kind of trying to act cool. I can't sing
to save my life, and none of my friends could either,
so we were trying not to, you know, get too involved.
And then one of our friends grow up shout out
to Oli, who I'm not friend. I'm not in touch
with him anymore. But anyway, this guy called Oli from
work turns up and he decides to sing a hound
Dog Elvis, and he's like dancing with the waitress. He's

(34:48):
like pulling the chair off, He's like doing all this stuff,
and all of the boys were scared, were like, we
can never go and do karaoke ever again, because he
was so good. Oli. If you're listening wherever you are,
you are amazed karaoke. What's so interesting about that reflection,
that's where it came from. We were talking about your
post is just the way there was one thing that

(35:09):
you said, I want to pick up another thing that
really that really stood out to me. In my mind,
everyone was on a racetrack and I had an immense
fear of being lapped or falling behind. And then you say,
strangely enough, there are still moments today where I feel
like I'm behind. That thought might never truly go away,
even though I know how upset it is. Have you

(35:31):
made peace with the idea that you don't think that
thought will ever go away?

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (35:37):
How did you do that? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
It used to bother me a lot, Like I always
used to compare myself to people, and I think, especially
being a tennis player, you count titles, you count wins,
and you kind of size yourself up against other people
your age or in your division, and I'd always feel
like constantly on this race of like who's better, who's

(36:04):
going to be better, who's not doing as well? And
that's kind of transferred, I guess onto me as a person.
It's definitely gotten a lot better, but I feel like
for me it's kind of on the same line as
being very competitive. I'm a very competitive person, so I

(36:25):
don't think I'll ever truly not try to size myself
up against other people.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah, it's it's that weird balance, isn't it. It's like,
how do you stay competitive and also be content because
you don't want to be lost being so competitive that
your competitiveness becomes constant comparison. And we always hear the
old cliche of well, compete against your old self. Do
you find that to be true now that you're playing

(36:51):
tennis again after being a mom, Like, is that something
you're having to do or do you disagree? And you
actually think it is still about being competitive on the court.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
You know what's funny is I think I spent most
of this year chasing my old self or my former shadow,
And I don't necessarily think that's the way to go.
I think, you know, you were who you were, and
now you're a more beautiful, more mature version of that,
and it would kind of be doing your own self

(37:20):
a disservice to constantly compare. And I don't know. I
think there's beauty in stepping into the present and looking
towards the future. So I no longer compare myself to
my old version, And I don't know, I try to
find myself more excited for what I could be.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
What does that look like? Sometimes when you kind of
get into that, what's pulling you, what vision comes to mind?

Speaker 1 (37:47):
I think the vision that comes to mind isn't necessarily
like winning as many trophies as I can, which that
would be great, and I am hopeful that that will
happen in the future. But I guess being happy to
learn more, to meet new people, to learn from them,
and just learn more about myself throughout those journeys. I

(38:09):
find that as a tennis player, I'm quite stubborn, so
it's very hard for me to take advice from someone
that I don't trust. And in actuality, like talking to people,
I kind of learn new things or learn new tips
and tricks.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, what do you wish you knew about motherhood before
you became a mother?

Speaker 1 (38:30):
You know, it's funny. I don't think there's really anything
that can prepare you for being a mom. Like I
read so many books and nothing really took me by
surprise because I read so many books.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Any good ones you recommend or any advice that really
stood true?

Speaker 1 (38:47):
So something you wish to know. I wish to know
that after a certain age, the baby will just poo
in the tub and you're just gonna have to accept it.
And my daughter, I remember there was there was one
night she did a number two in the tub and
she looked at me, she screamed, she said yucky, and

(39:09):
she walked away from it while like expecting me to
pick it up. And I was like, Okay, I guess
that's fine, Like we're just going to clean this up
and restart the bat. So yeah, I guess that's something
I wish I knew. And then what was the other question?

Speaker 2 (39:24):
No, no, I was saying, if there was a book or
something advice from a book that stood true and that
really helped.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Before you give birth, you could have like a birthing class.
So I did that, and while I was in labor,
I did absolutely none of those tips and trips. So
uh yeah, I feel like also with motherhood or with pregnancy,
everyone's journey is so different.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
What was the process like going from giving birth to
then getting back on the court, even back to training,
not even a game, but like to get back to training.
What did that look like?

Speaker 1 (40:00):
That it was really difficult just because for me with
my daughter, while I was pregnant, I was constantly sick
and the only way I could alleviate that is through
like eating stuff to like settle the stomach pain. So
I ended up gaining a lot of weight, so I

(40:20):
really needed to burn that off. And I'm the type
of person that i'll train during pregnancy even though people
have half and half opinions on that. So I ended
up training, I would say, almost up until she was born,
and then immediately after, like maybe seven to ten days,

(40:41):
I started training again. Wow, And I know that caused
a little bit of a stir online, but I don't know.
I think, you know, my body's used to training because
I've done that since I was super young, and I
wouldn't recommend it to I guess people that don't work
out often.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
But what was the kind of start online?

Speaker 1 (41:00):
It was just people saying that I need to heal
more and stuff like that. But actually, like after I
gave birth, I remember the nurse asking me if I
needed like a wheelchair to the bathroom and I had
to convince you that I was fine and I could
walk around by myself and stuff like that. So I
just feel like bodies are very different.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, it's so interesting. We still feel we can tell
people what to do and when it's right for us
to know what's right for them, and this kind of
view of like, oh, well, I know what's best for
you right now without living and walking in your shoes.
You've experienced a lot of that like kind of like
snapback culture and that feeling of like people kind of

(41:42):
you know, I've seen some interviews where I just felt
I felt embarrassed for the person asking you, but I
felt worse for you that someone would even ask you
questions like that. And you're awesome because you will just
call them out and you're not worried about, like, you know,
making it known. How have you got good at doing that?
Because I think so many people would get scared or
be shy or be but you know, you're okay with

(42:02):
the fact of like, hey, I don't think that's a
great question to ask, you know, which I respect.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
I don't know. I feel like my personality type is
very honest, Like I pride myself on being very straightforward
and honest, and that's kind of what's gotten me in
trouble quite a couple of times. But I guess when
we're doing a press conference, I see the people on
the other side of the table as humans, and I
would say. That's also where the line started to get

(42:28):
blurred for me a little bit. Is because I've been
doing press conference since I was like sixteen seventeen, and
then obviously when I became to when I began to
become a little bit more known, more and more people
entered those press conferences, and I felt like they weren't
treating me like I was a human. It was more like,

(42:51):
let's ask her a question to get this like one
liner or this article grab. So that's kind of where
I started to become a little bit fearful. I think
people can see that I became a little bit more
closed off.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, which is natural. I mean, going back to what
we were talking about, King Richard, I still remember that
scene where like her dad has to stop the interviewer
from asking those questions because he's like, she's like fifteen
years old. And it's interesting, you know, the kind of
questions that I think a lot of, Like I said, athletes, managers,
coaches get asked, and we've seen a lot of athletes

(43:25):
in the past twelve months. I feel like, really there
was a Yannis who came out and he you know,
I think they were like, oh, well, what is it?
Going to be like when you don't win the championship
this year, and he's like, well, do you get promoted
every year? He's like, you don't. So you know, we're
not going to win the championship every year, and that
doesn't mean we've failed. How have you We talked about
you comparing yourself to others, but when people from the

(43:46):
outside of comparing you to other people, how have you
dealt with that? Like? How have you kind of processed that?

Speaker 1 (43:51):
It's easy to think about. Like for me, I can
brush that off quite easily because I know it's my
life and I'm living it. I know that the decisions
that I make are going to be very different to
other people's decisions, and I don't know. It's no one
can ever predict someone else's path. I just realized, like,

(44:12):
some people will understand that and some people won't, and
it's not my job to convince people of that. But
at the same time, I guess I'm seeing comparisons is
hard because you can wonder I guess. I think for me,
the most dangerous thing is the wonder I wonder if
they're right, or I wonder if you know, I wonder

(44:36):
how they're seeing things.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Like that, Yeah, yeah, that's it's so natural and so real.
I literally had a friend reach out to me yesterday
and she was just like, Jay, I've got this really
big launch coming up in my life, in her career.
And she was like, but I was watching one of
my friends and he had his big launch event and
then I was comparing mine to his, and you know,

(44:58):
and I think it's something we all do. I know
it too, Like it's such a natural thing. And I
loved what you said earlier that it's just a thought.
You have to make peace with that. The thought's going
to come up, like, we're not going to be able
to get away with that thought. We're not gonna be
able to avoid that thought. And it's what we do
with that thought, and it's how we respond to it
that makes all the difference. And this desire for that

(45:19):
thought to never appear and to never happen again, that's
what kind of causes us so much tension. It's almost
like the day we accept that you can't avoid a thought,
even if it's not peaceful, is the day you find
peace because you just realize that you can't keep resisting
it and you can't push it away. And then all
of a sudden, it loses its power on you. I

(45:40):
don't know if that resonates or makes sense at all.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yeah, I would say it definitely makes sense. I think
even trying to avoid a thought makes it much stronger
for me. I found myself often trying to meditate when
I have a lot of thoughts. I I love listening
to ocean noises or rain. I think water has a

(46:04):
very powerful effect on me, and I don't try to
push thoughts away. I try to welcome them and not
solve them, but figure out why they're coming in in abundance.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
When did you start meditating?

Speaker 1 (46:20):
I think, honestly before my first US Open win.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Wow, how did you get introduced to it?

Speaker 1 (46:26):
I didn't really get introduced to it. I just began noticing,
like I really enjoyed rainy days, and I began wondering
what was the cause of that and why did it
cause me so much peace? And I knew Grand slams
were particularly first rounds, they were very stressful, and so
I just started listening to rain noises. I guess the

(46:50):
night before matches.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
How does it feel living in LA when we don't
get a lot of rain.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
That doesn't bother me that much. I used to live
in Florida and we would get like them rainstorms, and
I don't know, it was fun, but it was also
a little bit chaotic for practice.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, it's I love that self awareness of being able
to connect for any days to water sounds and rain sounds.
I think, Yeah, it's so interesting. It's I love water
sound too. I find it so soothing and calming and beautiful,
and it's such an interesting thing. I was the fact
that you never got introduced to meditation, but we're able
to come to it of your own self. Of recognizing

(47:29):
what you you know, what connects with you and what
makes you feel calm. That's pretty awesome. Is this something
you still practice now or has it evolved at all?

Speaker 1 (47:37):
No, it's definitely something I practice now. I have an
app on my phone that also does brain waves while
having the water noises, and I listen to it every night.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
We've been talking a lot about like disconnecting and detaching
from previous versions of ourselves. You've talked about how like
getting your mom to like, you know, not work as
hard as such a big goal for wanting to become
a successful tennis player. What was it like when you
reach that goal when you could actually relieve her of
all that pressure.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
It was a very joyful day, but at the same time,
it was a little difficult for me because it was
a goal that I've set for myself since I was
very young, and I almost felt a little lost, like
I had to immediately set a new goal for myself.
I mean, it was awesome to see her not work anymore,

(48:27):
but just that immediate race to set a new goal
for myself and to set a new standard was something
that I struggled with for maybe a couple of days.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, I mean I can imagine it being harder than that,
because I feel like that's such a strong why, like
such a strong purpose of wanting your mom not to
have to work that hard, and that has so much
meaning to it, It has so much gravitas to it.
Often goals are like, oh, I want to win something
or I want to get somewhere, and then when you
make it about service or helping your mother or helping

(48:59):
someone almost get so much deeper. I can imagine it's
really hard to find a goal that deep. Again, Have
you been able to find a new goal that feels
that deeply rooted? Again?

Speaker 1 (49:10):
Not really? I think for me, most of my childhood
was wanting my mom to stop working because I rarely
saw her unless it was dinner time. It was, in
a way, I think, me trying to see my mother
more often, and once I accomplished that, then it became

(49:31):
more winning or making history or being the first Asian
number one, stuff like that, And obviously, yeah, they mean
a little more shallow but still meaningful. But yeah, I
think now you know, I do have meaningful goals. Maybe
they're just not as touching as you know, retiring my mom,

(49:52):
But I'd love for my daughter to reach an age
where she can see me play and kind of understand
everything what's going on.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
You'll have to keep playing.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
I definitely have to keep playing for a little while longer.
But I think, you know, I've learned so much throughout
the year, so I'm excited to learn more.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Are you excited for her to get on the court?
Would you like her to play?

Speaker 1 (50:12):
As all people ask me this all the time, and
I think before I had her, I said definitely not.
But I think now, like you know, if she's interested
about the sport, i'd want her to learn. And she
has a racket that she loves to swing around.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
I love that. But first, here's a quick word from
the brands that support the show. All right, thank you
to our sponsors. Now let's dive back in when you
were going through your when you announced that you weren't
going to play and you took your break from tennis
and competitive tennis for some time. What were you actually
dealing with? Like, what were you actually experiencing from a

(50:51):
mental health perspective, Like what did that look like for you?

Speaker 1 (50:53):
I'd say the French Open break. What I was dealing
with that time, A lot of shame, which I talked
to you about, like feeling embarrassed, feeling ashamed, like going
against everything an athlete stood for, which is like you know,
fake it till you make it, or don't show the

(51:14):
other person, you know, any cracks in your armor. Honestly,
just feeling very alone. I think tennis. Of course, for me,
I don't play doubles, so it's a solo sport and
I don't necessarily have, you know, the most friends on tour,
so I didn't really know what public reaction or reaction
in general was. I remember after I pulled out of

(51:38):
the French Open, I flew back home to la and
I just stayed in my house for maybe a week
or two, and I didn't I just like instacarted and
uber eats everything because I didn't want to see that
outside world. So I would say going to the Olympics
after that changed my mindset a lot because there were

(51:58):
so many athletes that thanked me and I felt so
much shock because I didn't know that I was helping anyone.
And I almost kind of went into the Olympics thinking, like,
people are gonna, you know, think that I'm like the
worst athlete of all time.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
What was it that was weighing on you that even
made you want to share the decision? Like what were
you going through that was so hard for you to
play and perform at that time?

Speaker 1 (52:26):
The emotions at the time felt so heavy, and I'm
trying to like recreate, you know, the exact emotions that
led to the decision. But I remember I won the
US Open one, the Australian Open, was trying my best
to like win the French as well, and historically I
don't have like the best clay records, so a lot

(52:49):
of press were asking me about that and leading up
into it, I wasn't doing amazing, but I wasn't doing
terrible either, but I just was so stressed out going
into the tournament that I didn't want to answer questions
about it anymore because it was like a constant everyday
thing and I just wanted to focus on, you know,

(53:09):
what I could do. It just kind of got to
a breaking point because I remember saying I wasn't going
to do media, and then that kind of blew up
in my face everywhere and it became such a big
deal and I didn't know why. I just felt really
bad because the tournament was very upset, and I kind
of felt like, you know, like people weren't focusing on

(53:30):
the tennis anymore. It was just focusing on who's not
doing press, why she's not doing press, and so I
just decided to leave.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Wow. Yeah, thank you for sharing that, by the way,
because I think it's Yeah, just as i'm listening to
I'm thinking about it. Like when you look at movies.
Actors make a movie and then they do a press
run and you're talking about a movie that you recorded
like in the past, or you filmed in the past.
Music's the same. You record an album, then you go
and talk about it. This is the opposite way like

(53:59):
you're being asked about it before you go on the
court and then obviously after as well, and I can
imagine like you just want to be focused. And I mean,
you know, I don't do anything of any similar pressure,
but I can think about even when I'm just going
on stage to give a talk or a presentation or
even an interview like this, and I know how much
I need my downtime and my personal time to prepare

(54:21):
and get my mindset right. And this isn't a competition.
It's not stressful in the way the games are physically
or mentally or anything. And so I can imagine that
that becomes really difficult. Were there's some athletes who are
the athletes that came up to you and said something
to you at the Olympics that made you feel a
sense of I mean, I think you already knew you
did the right thing, but people who came and reminded

(54:42):
you that it was definitely a good decision, a.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Lot of like female athletes. I got a really nice
message from other tennis players as well, and I felt
like I went from feeling very alone to not feeling
so alone at all. So it was it was really nice.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
It would be your ideal doubles partner if you did play.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
If I had to have a male doubles partner, Andrea
Agacy and then female, I would say Serena. But I
would be very scared. Yeah, I would be apologizing all
the time. So you know what, Venus, She's always been
so incredibly kind.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
I love that. I love that. There must be some
secret tennis society where you can make that happen watching right,
like a private game.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
You know, potentially, But also I feel like everyone's just
you know, living their lives.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah. I once got to play a private game against
Novak droc of it and I got destroyed.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
I'm sorry, but I would have expected I.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
Couldn't return I couldn't even return a sev like I
couldn't even get to it. Oh really, Yeah, that's how bad.
And he was going easy too, probably, I imagine. So
he's a nice guy. He was. He was like trying
to coach me and help me out just for fun.
But it was an embarrassing day. You're talking about loneliness
and friendship, and I find any athlete who's on the

(56:09):
road as much as a tennis player, Formula one races
soccer players pretty much every sport, there's so much travel involved,
Like how have you built friendships and how have you
maintained friendships? As it isn't a team sport, and I
think team sports we forget that there is a sense
of camaraderie. At least you have two or three people
that become close friends. But when you're playing a single sport,

(56:33):
it's actually a lot more challenging to have that. What
does your friends circle look like and how has it
evolved over time?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Honestly, I'm pretty lucky because even though I'm not playing
a team sport, I still have a team around me,
so you know, like my trainer, my physio, my coach,
my hitting partner. We all travel the world together. And
I'm the type of person that it does take a
while to open up, but I don't know once I

(57:01):
do open up, things might get a little crazy. For me,
that relationship with my team is very important and it's
helped me a lot over the years, and of course
I guess talking to my mom, talking to my big sister,
keeping those relationships it is super important.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
You've said before that Kobe was a mentor for you
as well, right, Kobe Bryant, who I was so grateful
and honored to have a conversation with around five years
ago now sadly before his tragic passing. And what was
that relationship like for you and why was it so
important and powerful to you? How did you even meet.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
I met him because my agent we were I don't know,
something had happened, and then we were talking about someone
that would be a good mentor for me and he
just was like, okay, Kobe, I don't in my head
that's how it went. There was probably like very like
multiple steps to get to co But yeah, one day

(58:02):
we were at his office and me and him sat
and talked for like two hours, and he's such a
genuine guy and it was just so easy and pleasant
to talk to him, and that relationship. Was this something
that I treasure a lot because I felt like he
was my big brother and I could talk to him

(58:22):
about sports advice and life advice and just things that
were in my head.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Was there a piece of advice that he gave you
that stayed with you?

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Basically? I remember asked him once like how does he
not pay attention to people's opinions? And then he was
like referencing Animal Planet and saying, like you have to
be the lion, and the flies around your eyes are
people's opinions and you just have to focus and keep
your eyes straight.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
I love that. Do you find new mentors now? Is
looking for mentorship a part of where you're at right
now or is it no time whatsoever? Sir.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
I'm not necessarily sure. I would consider anyone my mentor
after him, and I feel like the word mentor is
such a big one. I would love to have people
to converse with. And it's also weird because when I
think of mentor, I think of someone that's like older
than me, and I would love to have one. I
just you know, I don't really know if how I

(59:23):
would approach that. Yeah, maybe I would ask my he
seems Yeah, I'm kind of more interested in like trying
to be a mentor to someone. I know that, you know,
my path wasn't exactly the smoothest, But I would hope
that the younger generation could maybe learn a thing or two.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
If you were coaching someone or mentoring them, what would
be a piece of advice that you'd want to pass
on to them, or what's something that you feel you'd
really want to instill in them.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
I think it would go back to like the Haitian,
the Haitian way of like giving, even though you know
I I think human nature a little bit is to
be selfish. Recently, I've kind of dealt with or overcome
the feeling of the fear of being forgotten, and I
think in that way we kind of tend to keep

(01:00:14):
things close to the vest, And for me, I think
sharing is caring and just trying to make the world
better for the kids that come after us.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
I really believe that we're wired for generosity but educated
for greed, and that selfishness comes in because society encourages
you to want to get, to achieve, to get somewhere,
when actually your essence is trying to just be and

(01:00:44):
live and experience and learn and heal. It's almost like
there's two tracks, and I think we're on both of them,
but I think often we just get onto one of
them and it becomes about achieving and winning, which is important,
but you get away from the being, living and experiencing,
and it's like, how do you make sense of both
of those? And you're right. Having mentors is such a
beautiful way to kind of following the footsteps of someone

(01:01:07):
who's been there. Done that and had to think about
those things earlier than you. Yeah, but it seems like
you still talk to your family a lot. Your team,
as you said, you're surrounded by them a lot. Who's
the person you spend the most time with right now
when you're not on the court and not thinking about
tennis and what's like, what's something you do when you're
not playing or not preparing currently?

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
The person I spend the most time with is my daughter.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Yeah, of course you said she's one year in five months.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Yes, and she's teaching me a lot how to put
my foot down because she definitely puts her foot down.
It's the person I spend the most time with maybe
either my boyfriend or my trainer, because my trainer is
with me like a very very long time out of
the day. She's a funny guy, is it?

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Why is your training a funny guy?

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Can I ask you? What is your zodiacs?

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yeah? I'm a Virgo.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
Yeah, he's a virgo too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Okay, all right, okay, so yeah, what dates is Beth?
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
I think August snow, September, September.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Eighth, September sixth, Okay, okay, carry on now continue So yeah,
I'm big skinned. It's all right, you can say what.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
I don't know. I feel like virgos are very like
they want to be perfectionists or they are perfectionists, and
it's just funny to interact with him, and you know,
like I, when I get comfortable with people, I goof
around a lot, and I love seeing him get frustrated
about it a little bit. But yeah, it's it's just

(01:02:46):
nice because I find virgos to be very knowledgeable in
their fields.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Well that's very kind, thank you. No, I've learned. I've
definitely learned over the years to give up that perfectionism.
I've learned that. And my wife's a big impact for that,
for sure, because she's such a goofball. And so I've
always said, like, I'm the kind of person that takes
life too seriously and my wife doesn't take life seriously
at all, and that's rubbed off on each other and

(01:03:11):
it's been it's been good to lose that kind of yeah,
but but I definitely still have moments of it, for sure,
Like I can't be late. I have such a thing
about being late. It upsets me so much. And definitely
I like things in order and I like things to
be in their place. And that's all very very true.
So me and you, me and your training would get along.
I guess I think maybe maybe when's your birthday?

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
October?

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
So Libra, okay? October? What day?

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Sixteenth?

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Okay? Do you have a special ritual that you'd like
to celebrate your birthday with or anything that comes around
or not? Really?

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Usually I'm in Tokyo around those dates, but if I'm
not at a tournament, I prefer to be like on
the beach somewhere, So I think that's my ritual, I
think now obviously with the birth of my daughter, I'd
love to always for around.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Is a beach you a happy place or is that
just vacation?

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
It's my happy place, like I go there to think
or write things down or just to I guess, have
some joy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Do you still go regularly now? Like? Is that part of.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
That's where I race to my car?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
Really?

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Okay, got it all right, So look for a tinted
car and go stand near a beach and you might
get to race. Naomi. I love that. I love that
you have such an endearing perssonalate, like I love when
I love it when you think you're about to say
something really like awkward or whatever it is that goes
through your mind and then you laugh about it and
then you share it, but it always turns out to

(01:04:38):
be brilliant, Like it's it's always funny and interesting and entertaining.
And what's allowed you to be comfortable in your own skin? Lately?

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
I think I'm very lucky because I've kind of been
forced to be comfortable in my own skin. And I
think that's due to like being a little bit different,
I guess in general, like I'm Japanese, but maybe presenting
I don't look Japanese, so that's when I was younger,
that often caught people off guard. But for me, this

(01:05:10):
is just, you know, this is just how I look,
This is how I know that I am, and I'm
having both cultures is my way of life, and I've
always felt very confident and comfortable with that, so I
would say it's not necessarily something I've struggled with often.
But I think also another phase of that is motherhood

(01:05:32):
and trying to snap back with snap back culture, and
I'm just yeah, I guess loving myself so self love.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
I'm always fascinated by high performing individuals, like you've played it,
you know, in the top one percent of not only athletes,
but then of your own sport. What does your routine
look like on a game day? Like, how do you
prep yourself? How do you get in the zone? What
does that look like? You talked about meditation earlier and things,

(01:06:03):
but what does an actual breakdown look like?

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
This is where like the routine kicks in. So every
day is kind of the exact same. I eat breakfast, well,
I wake up, meditate, take a shower, eat.

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
Breakfast specific breakfast.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Yeah, always the same breakfast every time. Usually it'd be
like smoked someone, But I'm kind of off that phase
right now. So yeah, go to the tournament site, do
like light hitting and then change into my outfit, listen
to music, do like a game prep, and then warm
up and play the match.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Do you sleep well before a big game.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Depends how big it is. Yeah, I know before all
of my finals, I didn't sleep as well. I think, Yeah,
I don't know. I just remember waking up sweating. I
don't think you're really supposed to sleep well before moments
like that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
I asked because I remember, like even having like big
interviews and things like that. When I say interviews, I mean,
like when I was being interviewed for being at companies,
which seemed like an important part of my career. At
one point, I remember never sleeping well, like the adrenalines
in my body and like rehearsing in my head. But
it's so important to playing well the next day, to

(01:07:20):
have rest and recovery and everything else. Was there any
secret that you found to be able to sleep or
at least be energetic the next day.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
Not really, But I found myself constantly playing the match
in my head in my dreams the night before matches.
So I felt like when the time actually came, I
had already prepared myself for that, and it actually helped
me out quite a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
If someone right now was, you know, going through depression
or suffering from a mental health condition, or experiencing something,
and they're listening right now, and we know that our
audience really turns to us in those times, and so
many people have listened to episodes here that have helped
them through really difficult times in their life. What would

(01:08:06):
you say to them? What would you share with them?

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
I know I ever claimed to know answers, but I
think when I was at really low moments of my life.
I always felt like I was alone, So I would say,
you're never alone. There's always going to be people that
care about you way more than you think. And sometimes
I think we hide it so well that we're struggling

(01:08:31):
that they don't even know. So it's okay to ask
for help and you shouldn't ever feel shame for that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
I love that. Yeah, No, it's it's always helpful hearing
it from someone who's been through it, and I know
I already appreciates that a lot. Was there any specific
healing method or technique or approach that really helped you,
especially getting over that shame, that guilt, that feeling you
were caring. Was there anything that helped?

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
Honestly, I think just interacting with people. I tend to
close myself off a lot, whether it's like being in
my room by myself. So yeah, just interacting with people,
talking to my sister, and just realizing that there's a
lot more to life than I know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
A few moments ago, you were talking about how like
there was this feeling of, you know, being forgotten and
then taking a break. So like having the courage to
take a break when you have the fear of being
forgotten is probably one of the most courageous acts for
anyone in the world, whatever they do. How have you
kind of been able to make that decision and been

(01:09:40):
able to reconcile that for yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
I think it's a process that's kind of been sped
up by the events of my life. I feel like
those two things are maybe something that should have been
spread out throughout years, but I just happen to put
it together. I don't know. I've won four Grand Slams,
I've been very fortunate to light the Olympic. There's probably
some more that my agent wants me to say, but

(01:10:04):
I don't know. Those are the things that come to
my mind. And I've in a way accomplished so much
more than I thought I would, and I want to
accomplish so much more. But at the same time, like
I needed to separate myself as a person. I think
I told you I've been playing tennis since I was three,
so that's the only identity I know of myself, and

(01:10:27):
I needed the break to figure out who I was
as a person. And now I hope I do, and
I think I do. But I'm able to stand tall
and be confident, and I don't know be proud of
myself for that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Yeah, I think that's the greatest accomplishment. I really do.
I hearing you speak today, and I'm just so excited
for everyone who's going to listen to recognize that the
day we're not defined by our careers is It's so
interesting how society became defined by what we do at
one point, and the question became what do you do?

(01:11:00):
And then that's how we introduced ourselves. And even if
you look at last names, at one point, they all
became about a career, like Baker and Blacksmith and whatever.
All these names became our last names because they were
our occupation, and so they became our total identity. And
it's so interesting to think about how even in today's society,

(01:11:21):
our worth, our everything is defined by what you do
for a living, and so to be able to go
beyond that, as young as you are and as early
as you are, it's I think it's a really powerful
place to be and only good can come from it.
So it's pretty remarkable. I love hearing that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
Thanks for saying, I'm young.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Young. Whereas people making you feel old.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
You know, maybe I'm making myself feel old. I think
that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
Yeah, I don't think, how are you old?

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
I think it's also like growing up in the tennis world,
there's always constantly young people coming up, so I start
feeling like a grandma.

Speaker 2 (01:11:58):
That's a great point. It makes a lot of sense.
I feel like, if you're in an industry where everyone's
eighteen or nineteen, or I guess in tennis cases like
three three, I was like, of course you're gonna feel
ancient if everyone's starting at three years old. Name me.
It's been such a joy to talk to you today. Honestly,
I've loved every moment of it, and I appreciate you
being so open and funny and like this conversation was

(01:12:23):
as playful as it was profound, and I loved that.
When I felt like we were playing tennis, I was like,
you know, I hope so you said I won one rally,
So I think you won that one, Okay, all right?
On the set, I'm gonna say, I want the set? Yeah, no,
I think you won the set. Oh really? Yeahah, I
think you won the set.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
What do you think the score was?

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
Oh? Oh gosh, all right, you know you told me
what you think this care was.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
Let's let's get it really close. Seven to six.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Seven six, All right, so you're gonna let me go
that far? I like that? Like that. Well, we end
every episode with a final five. These questions have to
be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, and
so Naomi Osaka, these are your final five. The first
question is what's the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Ah?

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
Does that count as my answering.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
Advice?

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
First advice I've ever heard? Just be yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever heard
or received?

Speaker 1 (01:13:21):
Just be yourself? What's the worst advice I've ever heard?
It's like when people say just smile, but you know,
sometimes I don't want to smile. Sorry, that was no.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
No, no, I get it. No, it's I understand. It's
it's a forced it's a forced emotion. It doesn't work.
You can't force either. Question number three, what's something you
used to value that you don't value anymore?

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
People's opinions because I think I I don't know. I
value my own opinion more, and I think I I
might have a better opinion because I'm living my life.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
So question number four, what are you most excited for
in the next twelve months?

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Seeing my daughter grow and returning and playing on tour
to play more tournaments.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
Which tournament do you get most excited about?

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
Oh? Always the Slams. I feel like they're so special.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
Yeah, I need to come watch you you Shore, Yeah,
I'd love that. That would be awesome. Fifth and final
question we asked this to every guest who's ever been
on the show. If you could create one law that
everyone had to follow, what would it be.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
Do something good for I guess the younger generation, or
do something good for the person coming up after you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
That's a great law. I love that. I think you've
definitely done that. You've genuinely I ever since I readio
op ed and learned about what you were doing to
open up about mental health, I was like, I need
to meet this human. I was in awe of what
you used your platform to do. I think it's been
incredible how it's given so many people permission, so many

(01:15:01):
people the opportunity to actually not just smile and share
how they actually feel. And I think it's sent ripples
into not just the sports world, but beyond. And so
I thank you so much for your service and what
you've done for so many And I'm so grateful that
you allowed me to interview today and thank you so much. Yeah,
really appreciate it. If you love this episode, I need

(01:15:24):
you to listen to one of my favorite conversations ever.
It's with the one and only Tom Holland on how
to overcome your social anxiety, especially in situations where you're
not drinking and everyone else is. We talk about his
sobriety journey and so much more. He gets really personal.
I can't wait for you to hear it. It's going

(01:15:44):
to blow your mind. The quote is, if you have
a problem with me, text me. And if you don't
have my number, you don't know me well enough to
have a problem with me.

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