Stuck in a Creative BLOCK? THIS 3-Minute Practice Will Unlock Your Creativity (This Quick Daily Act Will Help You Feel Inspired Again!) With Amie McNee

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Literally the day I started journaling, I haven't stopped, and
everything changed because I allow creativity back into my life,
shame free. I think so many of us are creating,
but we've got so much shame around it. We're not
good enough, it's not making enough money.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
My parents, you.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Know, really think I should give it up. There's so
many narratives that come with creativity. So many of us
are just being held back, kept small. I want you
to find out what happens when you take perfectionism out
of the equation and you just let yourself create.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
The number one health and wellness podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Stay Shetdy Jay, Sheddy Day, shed Hey everyone, Welcome back
to on Purpose, the place you come to to become
a happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is someone
I've been wanting to sit down with for so long.
I have stalked her on Instagram, shared a ton of
her stuff, showed her work to so many of my

(00:51):
friends and family members because it has deeply impacted me.
It's a page that I turned to when I feel
like I need someone to give me a bit of guy,
give me a steer, give me a direction to think
in And I can't wait to introduce her to all
of you. I'm speaking about author, artist, creative, and poet
and so much more. Amy McNee, Please welcome to On

(01:13):
Purpose Amy. Amy. It is so great to have you here.
I'm such a huge fan and I can't wait for
your new book. We need your art. I think it's
going to be life changing for so many budding creatives,
people are just starting out, up and coming, and at
the same time established creatives who are trying to rediscover themselves. So,

(01:33):
as a fan, thank you for being on the show
and so excited to have this conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Jay, I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for your art. I'm
so grateful that you make the things that you do,
and I'm just very excited to be here.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
I'm trying to remember when I first came across your work,
and I can't remember the exact moment, but I remember
the feeling I had of swiping through reading some of
your work. You were holding up your pieces of board
or card, and you know, with your thick marker handwriting,
and I was reading it and thinking to myself, how
can someone be saying things that are so sometimes difficult, uncomfortable,

(02:10):
hard to say, and hard to hear, but doing it
in a way that was so clear and so powerful.
And I wanted to start off by asking you how
do you see people? Are people born creative or can
people become creative? And is everyone in some way creative?

(02:31):
Because I think a lot of people listening right now
are thinking, Jade, this episode isn't for me. I'm not creative,
I'm not an artist. What do I do?

Speaker 1 (02:40):
I know when I say, and I say it a lot,
I say we need your art, and I worry about
the amount of people who are like, oh, not my art.
But I'm like your art, and I think we have
a real We can really pedestal the term art as
to what it is, and we think it's, oh, it's
fine art, or oh it has to be photography or
a certain type of art. But art comes in so
many different shapes and forms, and we all have a

(03:02):
capability and a desire to create. It's just that it
looks different for all of us. So when I say
we need your art, like, I mean we need your
art like we all have a drive and a desire
to make stuff. It's so innate, it's so human. So
I think we really need to take art off the pedestal.
It's not just for fine arts, although obviously it is,
but it's this. It's podcasting, it's you know, watercolors, it's writing,

(03:27):
it's planting, it's gardening.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
It's makeup tutorials.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
It's makeup tutorials, it's previews, it's cooking. Like creativity like
sinks into all aspects of our lives and we all
have a thirst for it. And so when I say
we need your art, I'm talking about you.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah, And I love that you are broadening the definition
of art. Yeah, because I think you're so right. Like
growing up, I'm not. I wasn't good at drawing, yeah,
and so I always thought I was an artistic Yet
it was so funny. I remember when I was finishing
primary school, elementary school, and I remember we did this
for flection exercise, and it was like, what's your favorite

(04:03):
subject and what's your worst subject? And I put my
favorite subject being math because I thought I was a geek,
but I wasn't. And then I wrote down my worst
subject was art. And then when I went to secondary school,
high school, and when I finished, if you asked me
what my favorite subject was, it was art. And if
you asked me what my least favorite subject was. It
was math because I had an art teacher called mister

(04:26):
Buckerridge at Q Boys School in Barnet that expanded the
definition of art from day one. And it became about color,
It became about juxtaposition, It became about meaning. It became
about college. It became about imagery, It became about my passions.
It became about all these other things. And I then

(04:47):
made him feel really upset because I sold out and
didn't study art at university, even though I.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Became in so many ways. You have studied art, you know,
like you kept that going in there, but it was
subject to be life.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, but you've brought in that definition for everyone, and
I think that's so needed because you are right. Podcasting
is art, writing is art, Cooking is art.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Or the way we dress, you know, the way we
express like you can't not create art, And I think
we need to reclaim that word for ourselves. It is
mine and you are an artist in some way, shape
or form.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
What happens when we stifle ourselves? So what happens when
you hold back? Sometimes today people even know they're artistic,
maybe they even had a little skill when they were younger.
Maybe they were passionate, maybe even now in their spare time,
but they're blocking themselves. They're stifling themselves because they've heard
things like, well, that won't get you a career, that

(05:41):
won't pay the bills, that's not going to make you money,
that's not a real job. And by the way, I
heard all those things growing up. So it feels very
familiar to me what happens to us when we stifle
ourselves and block ourselves.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, I mean, if you will indulge me, I'll tell
you a bit of my story because I feel like
and exactly as you said, you've experienced this, Like all
I wanted to do was tell stories, Like it's all
I wanted to do, whether it was through acting or writing,
I just felt like driven to express myself through storytelling.
And once I left school, I was like, Okay, I'm
going to take this seriously, like I really want to

(06:15):
commit to this. And you know, from the age of
eighteen to the age of like, you know, really recently,
like I was inundated with it's childlike, it's irresponsible, it's
foolish to take the creative arts seriously, and I ended
up with severe depression. I was so low because I
was so embarrassed by this extraordinarily strong desire to tell stories,

(06:37):
like I just wanted to tell stories, and I felt
so ashamed about it, and I felt like I couldn't
be a real adult, I couldn't grow, and so I
withheld my creativity and I felt incredible amounts of shame
and I felt so embarrassed, and I didn't want to
talk about it with anybody, and it resulted in me
being ridiculously depressed. I was so low, I had such

(06:57):
low affect, I had no motivation. So it was like
a war going on inside me. And half of myself
was like, I have to tell stories, like I am
here to create, to make art and to impact the
world with my art. And then the other half of
me was like, this is so irresponsible. Why can't you
be a real adult, Why can't you just grow up,
like get a real job, And that duality and that

(07:18):
war within me left me like broken. And it wasn't
until I started journaling and I started seeing the stories
that I was telling myself, and I was like this,
I cannot live this way, and so I started rewriting
them like with my pen on the pages of my
journal and I allowed art back into my life, like
shame free art, and like since literally the day I
started journaling, I haven't stopped and everything changed because I

(07:42):
allowed creativity back into my life. Shame free.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Wow, I love that. I love this and a shame
free art.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
It's so important.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think so many of us are creating, but we've
got so much shame around it. We're not good enough,
it's not making enough money. My parents, you know, really
think I should give it up. There's so many narratives
that come with creativity, and so many of us are
just being held back, kept small.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, we need shame free art.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
How did you get the courage to allow art back in?
Especially when you're in a dark place like you're saying
you're experiencing depression, You're hearing all this negativity around you
about the relevance of your art and the value of
your art. How do you in that place go, I'm
going to turn to art because it's the one thing
that's been villainized and made to seem negative.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, it was through journally. It was a complete narrative shift.
So I would write out the stories that I was
telling myself. So why can't you get a real job.
Why do you think this is possible? This is so embarrassing.
You've got hundreds of rejection letters from publishers. No one's
listening to you. And then I would write it all
out so I could witness the stories I was telling myself,
like I needed to see the amount of shame I

(08:48):
was in because and it would shock me, like I
would reread what I was writing and I was like,
my brain is like a place of just like violence
and vitriol, like I'm speaking so terribly to myself and
to my inner artist. And then at the end of
my journaling session, I would be like, Okay, well, how
do I want to sound? And I call it mothering myself.
It's like a reparenting exercise. And I would just be like,

(09:09):
you know what, and I'd treat myself like a baby,
and I'd be like, baby.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Girl, you are here to tell stories.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
I am so proud of you. I'm proud of the
way that you are showing up. I am proud of
the way that you were rebelling against society's expectation. You
are being put on this earth to make art, to create,
and I'm so proud of.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
What you're doing.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
And so no matter how much I like spewed out
crap and there was so much in a critic rubbish
on the pages, I always ended it with this voice
that was like, Okay, but I'm actually really proud of you.
You know, you are here to make art and you're
on the path. I used to tell that to myself
all the time. You're on the path, You're on the path.
So yeah, it was it was through words, which is
so appropriate, I guess for me as an author.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, but it's so interesting that that wasn't a learned
technique or it was that just happened. Yeah, yeah, someone
that came from within. But now it's practice people can
follow through. And I love that repetition of you are
on the path, because I think that's so so true
in that we think that we're either off the path

(10:09):
or on the path, and we think that we're either
going in the wrong direction or the right direction, rather
than just recognizing that you're on the path either way.
And I've done this often, and I've seen a lot
of people do it where we go. You know, up
until last year, I was it was just a mess,
and then I figured it out, which basically devalues all

(10:30):
of that experience, all of that pain, all of that stress,
all of the amazing journey you've had that brought you
to that point that actually inspires empowers this path. But
you're like, now I'm on the right path. And so
we have this way of devaluing past experiences, even when
we say, oh, I had this light bulb moment and
then everything changed, and it's like, well, no, all of

(10:50):
that got you to the light bulb experience.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, I love that. Jay.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Something I say to myself is that, yeah, I mean again,
I repeat it all the time. You are on the path.
You are on the path. You are on the path.
But it would have been so easy for me to say, oh,
I figured it out. Now I've got the publishing deal.
Now you know, I get to have an audience, and
now I figured it out. But I actually owe everything
to the girl that navigated silence, to the girl that

(11:16):
navigated rejection, to the girl that had so much shame,
Like when I think about how I got here, I
owe everything to her. And I tell that to her.
Artists all the time, because you know, so many artists
we are navigating. You know, we're sharing stuff on social media.
No one's seeing it, No one's liking it. We're, you know,
daring to put our art out for sale. No one
wants to buy it. We are learning new crafts, we're

(11:37):
being so vulnerable, and you, your future version of yourself,
owes everything to you for daring to be brave, for
being courageous, for taking up space even when no one
else is listening or no one else is watching, like
I right here on the J Shaddy Show. Owe everything
to the girl who was sitting at a cafe extraordinarily
depressed but saying, you know what, I'm going to dare

(11:58):
to write today even though nobody else wants me to write.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
I love that. I so love that, because you made
me think of I remember when I started out, and
I think the first two presentations I gave pretty much
no one showed up. And then for years I was
doing events for five people, ten people, and I loved it.
And actually I was so lucky because social media kind
of kicked off a bit later than when I would

(12:24):
have done that, so I never even had the pressure
or the belief that more than five to ten people
could come, because maybe I'd seen twenty people in a room,
or fifty people in a room, or one hundred people
in a room, and so to me, one hundred was
a big number.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
And I was talking to someone just a couple of
days ago, and they're a creator, and they were saying, like, Jeae,
I just feel this pressure of scale, and I feel
this pressure of like, not enough people have seen my work.
And I was just thinking, you know, whether I had
five people in the room, ten people, one hundred, or
you know, whatever it is now, I was always just
happy and grateful to be with whoever was in the room,

(13:00):
and so now I feel that same. And I know
it's easy for me. It sounds easy for me to
say it now, and it's hard for me to reflect
back from the external view of whether people believe me
or not. But I can honestly say that I remember
just wanting to spend the whole evening with the five
people who turned up and answer their questions and share
with them insights, and it was so beautiful and valuable
and meaningful that that's what gave me the practice. It's

(13:24):
what gave me the ability to understand different people's challenges
and stresses, and everything that I've been able to create
here is only because of that experience. It wasn't that
I'm different now and I'm better now and I mastered something.
It wasn't that it was all part of the same path.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
We owe everything to that version of Jay, you know,
and we get to experience you now because you did
and you enjoyed and you loved doing that work earlier on.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah. I love that.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah. I feel like so many people are probably listened
to this right now, going Amy J I have an idea. Yeah, Like,
I have something in my head that really makes sense,
but I'm scared to put it out there. And I'm
sure you hear this all the time, but I see
the fear of judgment and the fear of your art
being shamed, and the fear of people thinking it's silly,

(14:14):
not good enough, as being such a blocker for people,
And I wanted to ask you how do you help
people overcome that fear, because it seems to be the
biggest wall in the way of people and their dreams.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
I mean, there's so many different ways we can look
at this. First of all, I'm so excited that you
have an idea, like this is so exciting.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Let's cherish it.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
We need to take care of it because I like
that I'm really being serious, like, we need your art,
we need your expression, we need you to take up space.
There are people out there in the world who need
what you have to create, and if you choose to
withhold it, they will never get to experience it. Like
you are a one time phenomenon that will never ever
be seen again. And if you choose not to take
action on this idea, then that's done. That idea is

(14:58):
done eternally, will never be seen. And again, I just
want to really enforce that because it can be so
easy to be so flippant, Oh, it's just an idea.
It was never going to go anywhere. These ideas are
so precious and we need to take care of them.
The judgment thing, misunderstanding, the oh my god, what's that
dude from high school going to think of me? It
is so valid because art is so vulnerable. Creativity is

(15:19):
like pouring a little bit of you into an external
thing and giving it to the world. Like that's super vulnerable,
and so I want to validate that feeling of oh
my god, what will people think of me? Art is
a courageous exercise. It is so vulnerable, it is so scary,
and it's okay that we have these feelings. I think
there are several things that we can do. I think
the first one is come home to a truth, is
that you will be misunderstood and you will be judged,

(15:43):
and it's still worth making the art. I can't let
some random guy from high school stop me from doing
my work, and I almost did. When I decided I
wanted to really start taking up space as a writer.
I was like, Okay, I'm going to start like an Instagram.
I'm going to start sharing my words. And I was like, no,
I can't. It's so cringey. And I was like that

(16:04):
guy from high school, like Ben from high school, or
like I kept thinking of these random people, They're going
to see me and they're going to be like, who
does she think she is? And it stopped me in
my tracks for ages. And I just love that version
of myself because she was so brave and she decided, no,
I want this life. I want to tell stories. And
so I started inspired to write, started my Instagram and

(16:24):
I blocked every single person I could find, and I
sat there for hours being like they would stop me
showing up, they would stop me showing up. And I
created a cocoon for myself to become the artist that
I needed to be, And so I think, first of all,
we do need to understand that we will be misunderstood,
and that is safe to be misunderstood. But second of
all that we can take precautions to make sure that

(16:45):
we are that we have spaces to create and that
feel as safe as possible. But creation itself will never
be safe. It's inherently risky, and that's why it's inherently rewarding.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
I love that. I love that you actually had a
physical way I was having a block, and I think
we don't think about it that way. Sometimes we think
that we should have got over that feeling first, like
I should be over the fact that my parents think
this is a bad idea before I create, and it's like, well, no,
you're probably gonna have to create while they think it's about.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
It my good.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
We can't become like fully actualized before we create art.
And art's going to reveal all of your lightness but
also a lot of your darkness. So there's going to
be so many things that come up as you dare
to do the brave thing and create stuff, like you're
going to see a lot of narratives you're going to
see a lot of insecurities because again, making art so vulnerable,
you're just going to see a lot of the hard
things within you and you can't wait till they're healed

(17:38):
to begin creating. So yeah, do what you need to do.
And for me, I needed to block every single person
I could think of, and now everyone's unblocked. But I
needed that space away from eyes. I didn't want their
perception of who they thought I was to interrupt my
journey of who I was becoming, and so I claimed
space for myself. And I invite artists to, however, look

(18:00):
put boundaries in place so that you can do this
work and you can feel as safe as possible. And no,
you can't protect yourself entirely, but you can do a
little bit so that you've you know, feel a little
more comfortible and more cozy as you do the brave
thing and start you know, making some ideas.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah, I feel some of us have this feeling of
I wish the people who loved me believed in me.
Oh yeah right, And I feel as artists, because you
can have a softer heart, you're more empathetic, you're more
in tune with some of these emotions and feelings. There's
a sense of why don't you believe in me? And
if you believed in me, I could do it. And

(18:35):
if you believed in me, then I might get there.
And if you believed in me, then I'd feel better
about it. How do you let go of those kind
of expectations that we often have of the people around us.
There's a heartful part of that, but really it's a
hurtful part because it stops you from starting.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, it's so hard.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
I speak to so many creatives who's closest people aren't
backing them. I think when we can admit to art,
we often trigger a lot of people, and we trigger
the artist within them that they squashed down and that
they repressed. And so when we say, oh, I'm actually
being incredibly brave and I've decided to write a book,
we trigger a little part in them that says, well,
I never let myself write a book. I thought you

(19:15):
needed permission to write a book, and here you are
just taking up space writing a book. And I don't
know that they necessarily know that that's what's happening. But
I feel like when we commit to art, a lot
of people find that confronting, and so that's important for
us to realize, is it's not us. It's often there
in a child that just hasn't had a chance to
express ourselves because we don't live in a world that

(19:36):
really encourages art, that encourages creative expression. It's something to
do when you're young, and it's something to do when
you're retired, and when we dare to do it now,
you know, in like the middle of life, like I
think it's people are like, oh, well, who gave you
permission to do that? And it's like, well, I did.
And a huge part of my journey's being permission giving.
Like I thought I needed to wait for permission for

(19:57):
the gatekeepers from publishers. I thought I needed some I
want to say, you are now allowed to make art.
One of the biggest revelations, and again it came through journaling,
was well, no, I'm just going to give myself permission.
And I didn't need it through my parents, I didn't
need it for my friends. I just needed to literally
be like, I give myself permission to take this seriously,
and it was the most profound permission slip I could
have ever given myself.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Ever.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
I remember that as well for myself when I started
to create videos eight years ago, and it was that
same sense of feeling that before I did that, I
was asking people to give me a job to do
what I wanted to do, and I knew there wouldn't
be an exact job for it, but I was even
willing to sacrifice my art to take on a job

(20:42):
that might evolve into the artistic version of that. And
so I remember pitching myself as a trainee video producer
lots of companies in London and being turned down because
I didn't do communications at college or I didn't do
video production at college at university, and then same thing
with trying to meet editors of magazines and say oh,

(21:03):
maybe I can get in this way and again getting rejections.
And then it was actually Raj who messaged me. I
think it was like gosh, like twenty fifteen Christmas time,
and he was like, yeah, you've been giving a lot
of talks. We should get out there and just you know,
maybe we should record some stuff. And I was like,
I don't know, I haven't really made a video before.
And I was like I haven't really got any scripts,
and he was like, let's figure it out and so
I scribbled some stuff down that I've been thinking about,

(21:26):
and then we just went out there and we shot
these four videos and then we released them later on YouTube.
And it was the best feeling in the world, like
I've never I wish I could bottle up that feeling
and give it to other people, And well, well you
can with the work you're doing. Your book is that
we need your art. That's what the book is going
to do for people. It's going to give people that
feeling of freedom. Yeah, And it was the first time

(21:48):
I felt free because I'd constantly been waiting for someone
to give me a job, give me a title, give
me a position, give me an opportunity and a break.
And you're so right, Like, as an artist, you're constantly
waiting for someone to say, yes, your art is valid,
it's valuable. And it's almost like, how do you get
to a point where I want to ask you this?

(22:08):
Because we almost oscillate between two ideologies, which is like,
you should just be happy making art and you shouldn't
want anyone to see it, and then on the other end,
it's like, well, you have to make sure people see it,
otherwise what's the point of making it, and so people
get scared. And this is partly why I love your work,
because I think it really gets into the nuance of that. Yeah,

(22:29):
there's this feeling of like, well, it's weird to promote yourself,
so I shouldn't promote myself. But then no one sees
my art, and then I'm a starving artist. But maybe
that's my badge of honor and that's what makes me
credible and valuable. And then there's the other side of it.
I'm just gonna sell out and make what everyone else
wants going to make. I'm gonna go with the clickbait
trends and I'm going to do whatever it takes. But
then I don't really like myself at the end of

(22:50):
the day because that's not what I set out to do.
How do you make sense of that when you're starting
in the beginning and you're like, gosh, I don't know
which way to go and how to figure it out?
How do you help people think about that spectrum before
we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our
sponsors and back to our episode.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
This is such a nuanced conversation.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
I'm so glad you said that, because it is so complicated,
and it's so very valid to want to just make
art for art's sake, to just want to play and create.
In fact, I think that's an imperative part of every
artist journey, like have fun, Like that's so important for us.
But there are so many narratives around you know, how
did you art properly? And how you're meant to be
an artist and you should make a certain amount of

(23:32):
money and you should be showing up in this way.
There are so many stories that I think mean that
we start feeling if it can be incredibly stressful. Being
an artist on social media is so stressful. How do
I put myself out there? How am I meant to
promote myself? Should I want to promote myself or should
this be a private practice. I think this is an
intensely personal thing that you need to sit with and
decide where you're at. But for me, my calling is

(23:54):
to be seen and I love supporting artists who want
to be and I think there's a weird amount of
shame that comes from a creative who wants attention for
their art. And so my new thing at the moment
is to say I create art for the attention because
I create art to connect with people, and I think
a lot of artists do like we create because we
want to show you, and it's a really beautiful thing

(24:17):
to do, to make art and say here do you
see yourself in this?

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Like I made this? What do you? How do you
find it?

Speaker 1 (24:23):
And so I want to really validate creators who are
creating stuff because they want to connect. I think we
get this other story that is again a very valid
story that says you should only want to make art
for yourself. Like Rick Rubin talks about this a lot,
and I love what he's saying, because if we do
get too focused on the external and we start thinking, Okay,

(24:44):
well I'm going to make art only for other people,
can really muddy the waters. We get very confused and
we lose our internal compass and what it is we
want to create. But I think there's this balance to
be struck because yes, we have to love the process,
we have to love the act of art creating. But
at the same time, it's okay to want to connect
with other people. It's okay to want to have a

(25:05):
relationship with audience, it's okay to want to be seen.
It is so human to want to be seen, and
I want artists to feel very validated. That that is
a beautiful and normal, almost holy part of this. I
love artists that are out there asking people, hey, can
you witness me? I made this thing? Will you see me?
Like it just sets me Alie. I'm like, yeah, I
do want to look at you. I want to see

(25:25):
I want to give you my attention.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah. And you're so right that so many artists, and
I know I carry this at the beginning. There's a
sense of shame and guilt in well, am I less
than if I want to be seen? Am I? Am
I doing something wrong? If I want my art to
connect with people? Am I? And I agree with you
that that can be such an excuse for us to

(25:48):
not create and for us to not make or we create,
but then we play small and we hide and we
kind of keep our work very very separate because we
want to or we say things like that where we say, oh, yeah,
I mean you know, I don't really care about followers.
I don't really care about how many likes it gets,
and inside it's eating us as opposed to accepting and saying, well,

(26:10):
maybe I do care and I don't care. There's two
sides in me, and I think I've always I feel
that balance that you speak of is so true, because
there's a part of me that cares about everyone listening
to this podcast right now because I want to, because
I want to have a connection. I want to create
something of value for you that benefits your life and
changes your life. And you'll listen to this and it

(26:30):
will be the reason three years from now, you'll say
I listened to that episode with Amy and I started creating,
and all of a sudden, I'm writing a book and
my art's in a gallery or whatever it may be
for you. I want that feeling. I do, and at
the same time, I don't care because I just want
to have a conversation with Amy, and so both of
those things are true. But when we start denying parts
of ourselves, it's almost like we start lying internally to ourselves.

(26:53):
And when you do that, you then really disconnect.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
There is such a duality to being a human being,
and especially in being a creative and I love that,
like I care about my art impacting people, but I
also want to make sure that I'm making art that
I want to make, and that I'm not making art
just for an audience, and these two things can be
true at once, and we can honor both the fact that, yeah,
I make art for the attention, and I also make.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Art because I just love to tell stories.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
These things are true at one time, and we got
to honor both those parts of ourselves.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
You've done a lot of different jobs on the way here.
I believe it was like you were a waitress at
one point. Yeah, you were a bad trainer. You don't
financial planning, I want to hear.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
I wouldn't say I did financial planning. I was a
personal assistant, a financial planner, so I was financial adjacent.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Terrible at that job too.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
But I want to hear about that journey because I
think that's what I find fascinating about artists. Like, as
an artist, you're always having to pay the bills, finding
a way to solve this until your art becomes you know,
enough quote anyone who's I'm doing air quotes next to
enough to be RECOGNI eyes, et cetera. Walk me through
that part of your life where you're like doing things

(28:05):
that keep you afloat and at the same time trying
to keep your art alive. What was that like? Because
I think a lot of people listening right now. They're
maybe working a twelve hour job a day, they're working
three jobs a day just to survive. But they're like
they've got this skill and art, and really when they
get home at the end of the day, they just
want to switch on a TV show and escape and
switch out, Like how did you keep both alive when

(28:26):
it wasn't your main thing?

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, I mean one of the things that makes me
angriest is how much life robs us of our art time.
Like I want so many of us to have the time,
the energy, particularly to come home and to create, but
for so many of us, it's just it's not possible.
And balancing a regular work and a creative life is hard.
And I really want to validate any creative who's navigating this,

(28:49):
because I think we get a bit of the hustle
narrative or it's like just make it work. It is
hard to balance your creativity and your real life job
and you know, caretaking and being a kid and just
be an adult in general. Like I can, it's huge
and I really struggled with it. I was waitressing because
I was doing all these little jobs because I was
trying to fit art around them, so I was waitressing

(29:10):
because I could then I could work after three pm.
Maybe I was a personal trainer because I'll train clients
in the morning and the evening, and I'd try and
write in the middle of the day. Like I was
trying to choose jobs that would work for me, but
it was exhausting, and especially because these jobs were so
like the antithesis of amy, like I'm not made to
serve people coffee. I can't hold the skim milk situation

(29:33):
in my head, like I don't care, so I don't
pay attention, so I'm not a very good waitress. I'm
exhausted by the end of my shift. Then I get
home to my writing and I think, okay, well I
got to write two to three thousand words. This is
too much. And so I would let myself down. I
would feel like I betrayed myself, and I would get
in patterns of constantly feeling like I've betrayed my inner artist,

(29:55):
I betrayed my dreams. I can never reach up to
this level. And I think I see it all the time,
like artists are like, Okay, because I didn't write it
all this week, I'm going to weekend, I'm going to
do I'm very biased to writers, but any sort of creating,
I'm going to create for like six hours to make
up for it, and then they can't do it because
they're exhausted, and then in this pattern of self betrayal
and they start not trusting themselves that they're going to

(30:16):
follow through. But I had a real breakthrough when I
decided that I was only going to write three hundred
to five hundred words a day, just baby steps, small steps.
I realized that that was a promise I could keep.
Three hundred words could be done in like twenty minutes,
fifteen minutes. They could be crap. It was another big thing.
I think we'd demand huge amounts of time for our

(30:38):
art when we're already exhausted, and we're like, and they
better be perfect. It's so unfair, so unfair, and also
it's a recipe for absolute disaster, and you're not going
to be able to finish your creative projects because these
working conditions are horrendous. So it was three hundred shitty
words was my bare minimum. And I also had a
bare maximum so that I couldn't keep going so I
could contain my energy, so I wasn't allowed to write

(30:59):
more than a thousand words, and that's how I wrote
my books. That's how I still write my books. Three
hundred to five hundred words a day, and it's so doable.
And when you come home from an absolutely hectic day,
you can say, okay, three hundred words, three hundred potentially
crappy words, or ten minutes on the guitar, or I

(31:20):
want to take three pictures with my iPhone, you know,
whatever it is. It's just really small, really doable, and
then you start accumulating wins. So if you've done that
like three four times a week, you're like, Okay, maybe
I could do that again next week. And by the
you know, end of the year, you have a portfolio
of your creations and you've become you know, you've improved
as an artist. You've got something to show for yourself.

(31:42):
Some of you will have a finished book if you've
chosen to write. We ignore the magic of the baby
steps so frequently because I think we're just such a
go all in or go home culture.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yeah, and that you're so right that, you know, go
all in or go home culture. Just it blocks us
the most because it's also this comes from like a
bit of ego where it's like I want to be
the best of this, like this has to be incredible,
and it's almost like, well, maybe I'm not going to
be the best of this the first time I try,
all for the first year, or maybe for the first
ten years, and that's okay, because I'm just trying and

(32:14):
I'm just learning. But that requires a sense of detachment
and egolesseners to be like it's okay to make bad
stuff and I know you have the biggest proponent of
this shitty art. Yeah, and that's really been validating for me,
Like every time I read you say something like that
or write something like yes, thank you Amy for giving
me a permission. Walk me through how we because I

(32:35):
think we oscillate between procrastination and perfectionism, and so this
kind of solves both of them, really, but walk me
through that.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, they're so closely related, procrastination and perfectionism. One causes
the other, and such a perfectionism will mean that you procrastinate.
So my ethos is like shitty art, Like if you
can't point to a giant pile of shitty art that
you've made recently, then you're not doing the work. And
I think so many artists see that as a sign
of failure. But to me, that is a sign of

(33:04):
like giant success. We have to connect to that messy,
playful part of ourselves when we create. That's when the
best art is made. I watch artists for nests and
for ness, and they're trying to get it so right,
and they're like narrowing and narrowing their point of view
and they're getting so constrained and they're losing i think,
their own creative voice almost by these huge restrictions to

(33:25):
be perfect. Whereas if you just say, make shitty art,
and I often do this at workshops, They say I
got three minutes, just make something shitty, and the cool
stuff that comes out of that shitty palm shitty drawings,
there's also that little element of magic to it, because
when you just let yourself play like a child, it's
so fun. There's a lightness to it. Ideas come in
like perfectionism is rigidity, and we think perfectionism is the answer.

(33:49):
It's like, oh, if I'm a perfectionist, it's like that
will get me to where I want to go as
a creative. It's like the one fault that we're allowed
to have. But perfectionism will destroy your creative career, it
will destroy it. We need mess we need play. That
is when you will become the best artist you can.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, and that's actually often where I find the seeds
of great ideas come. Like you did something bad in
doing something random, but there's one word or one line,
there's one dott or whatever it is for you, there's
that one thing that you go, oh, that was the
real thing. That's the thing I want to create now,
and all of a sudden it sparks it. But if
you didn't allow for that messiness, it's never going to happen.

(34:28):
You'd never have seen it, you would never have found it.
And that, to me is is definitely why I crave
more play and more messiness in my life, because there's
a sense of the profound will only come from playfulness.
It's not going to come from trying to be profound
or create something profound. Yeah, it doesn't originate that way.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
I think so many of us think that art is
like a child thing, and so we're trying to be
like adults creating, and adults would create in very structured ways,
like we'd have rules, you know, we'd follow an expert,
and we'd do exact what they say. And we try
and make art a very responsible and neat thing. But
art is like that in a child playing, and art
is messy and it should be a kind of a
chaotic experience. We've got to invite that back into into

(35:11):
our lives.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yes, I do this activity that I got introduced to
many years ago. It's known as the thirty circles test,
and if you've ever seen it, so it's basically a
four piece of paper with thirty circles printed on it,
and I often hand it to executives at corporate coaching
and corporate clients that I have, And the task is
you have to uniquely fill and complete and use thirty

(35:35):
circles in thirty seconds. And the clock starts, and everyone
starts scribbling away doing their thing, and then clock stops
at thirty seconds, and I asked them, what have they done?
Over fifty percent of the audience will have done one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
eight to thirty or abcd EFG to z Z to
ABC again, and so they will have done that. That's

(35:55):
what over fifty percent of the audience has done. Some
of the audience has done squiggles just goes nothing. There
maybe notts and crosses, or they've some people done emojis,
and some people have done like footballs and soccer balls
and pizzas or whatever like using So yeah, and that's
generally runs the gamut of ninety nine percent of the audience. Yeah,
and maybe in the adult side you'd get one. But

(36:18):
they also did this with lots of ten year olds,
and I tried it out with ten year olds as well,
and some of the stuff that comes out is unbelievable.
And so this one girl had done all this like
intricate shading on it, and when we asked her what
it was, she said it was a chessboard from a
bird's eye view. And when you ask another kid what
it was, they had put like a line around it

(36:40):
and put a little thing on top, and they said
it was a bag of marbles. And they put five
dollars on the bag of marbles. And this was my
favorite one. Someone had done all this intricate shading this
little girl and put all this like curves and all
this stuff, and when I asked her what it was,
she said it was bubble wrap. It was so creative. Yeah,
it's genius, and it's so interesting what you're saying is

(37:00):
so true that when adults here thirty circles thirty seconds,
we go logical brain structure, completion deadline, so we switch
off the part of our brain that has any Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Can you can imagine how many of those adults are
thinking there is a right and.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Wrong way to do that?

Speaker 1 (37:18):
Yeah, and I'm going to be marked on it, whereas
these kids are just like, it's so beautiful, so playful.
And when we talk about creative genius, I think we
often think of some of you know, the greats, like
Mozart or something, but like, look to the kids, because
they are finding out fun stuff. Yes, they are the
creative geniuses, and we have that within us. It's just
that we've been told to squash that part of us

(37:39):
from our culture.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
Really, how do you start to structure and strategize art
and promote it in a way that then it does
allow you to Because it's almost like we're trying to
become adult about our art, not adult about how we market,
promote and strategize our our It doesn't make sense. Yeah,
Like it's almost like the art should remain playful and
messy and truly creative. But then how we get that

(38:02):
art out there should potentially have structure and strategy.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
And yeah, I'm going to disagree with you.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
I want to hear your thoughts. But first, here's a
quick word from the brands that support the show. All right,
thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive back in.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
I think there's a lot of room for mess, for playfulness,
for the chaos, the traditional creative chaos, in marketing putting
your art out there, I think we get really stuck
on Okay, well, I've made my art. It's incredible, it's beautiful,
it has my inner child like infused within it. Now
I'm going to market it, and now I need branding colors,
and I need a social media scheme, and I need

(38:38):
to be I need to be doing you know, four
to five consistent posts a week and three reels, and
all of a sudden that like I see it, like
artists just shrivel, Like we don't thrive under those kind
of circumstances. I think there's so much room for I
think marketing is an art form in itself, and therefore
I think that when we put our art out there,

(38:58):
when we promote our art, there is room for mess.
And there's still like shitty art should still be a
part of it, like we should still be playing around
seeing what works, having fun when we promote our art
as well. I think artists feel so claustrophobic when they
feel like they have to niche down or they feel
like they have to you know, meeten up their Instagram grid,

(39:19):
like be messy in the promotion process. Like we're out
there looking for real humans to connect with, not not brands,
not companies. I want to connect with artists who are
real human people. So I want to invite artists to
bring that mess into the marketing process as well. But
I think it's very easy, like for our perfectionists to
flare up when it comes to sharing it art because

(39:41):
not only have we just done the bravest thing, which
is make art, now we have to share it, and
so perfectionism is going to flare hugely because we're like, kay,
we've got to protect myself because this is a moment
where I like put it out there and people are
going to see me as the artists. They're going to
see my art, they're going to judge it.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
So we start.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Trying to structure it really heavily in order to feel safe.
And I just think we lose so much of the
magic when we do that. I want to see the artist.
I want to see the human. I want to see
your mess I want to see you playing. I want
to see I just want to see grit.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
No, I actually agree with you. I actually agree with you.
I definitely when I was doing my structure and strategy,
maybe I use the wrong words. I definitely don't mean
definitely don't like the idea of people having to you know,
like you said, choose brand colors and be organized. Yeah, no,
not in that way at all. And I couldn't agree
with you more. That often that's the stuff that stifles

(40:33):
even more creativity because you're now playing a game, definitely,
and you hope to figure.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Out Yeah, I see artists, do you see it everywhere online?
Especially in the space I'm in, because I'm so in,
you know, the creative space. Artists are just so tired
of having to show up in specific ways online in
order to please the algorithm. Like there's a weariness that
I see in creatives that's so heartbreaking, And I just
want to say, like, first of all, I know it's

(40:58):
hard to navigate these system but second of all, break
all the rules, rebel like artists are inherent like rebels.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
We break the rules.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
We've already broken loads of rules because we've created stuff
in a world that wants us to stay small and
compliant and silent. Now it's time to break the rules
with how we put our art out there. Do whatever
you want to do, Do what makes you happy, do
what feels creative, rather than you know, constantly obeying what's
going to go you know, what we think might go viral,
or what reels are preferred by the algorithm. This stuff

(41:29):
is making us feel like shit, and it's not I
don't know that it's helping us.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
And how do you feel like if someone's doing that,
but then they're also like going months and years without
feeling like their work's being seen.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Yeah, it is incredibly difficult, and there's nothing to me,
there's nothing more painful. And when you're sharing your art
and nobody is seeing it, like, there is an exquisite
pain when it comes to that silence and navigating like
putting something out there that you've just created and having
no one respond. Like for me, when I was navigating that, like,

(42:02):
I was very very upset by it, and I felt
almost ashamed by how upset I was by it again.
It's that idea that artists shouldn't want attention, But I
wanted attention. I wanted people to see and read my books.
I wanted to be witnessed. So when artists aren't seen
and when we're like, Okay, I'm going to break all
the rules, but it feels like by breaking the rules
you get missed or you get put to the side.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
That can be incredibly difficult.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
I think there's a way to kind of toe the
line and play the game, but what at the same time,
make sure that it feels good to you. Certainly for
the way that I like to share my art I
don't want to do what's going viral, but I will
still consider, like, you know, how it's going to impact
my audience and what people have enjoyed of my content lately. Like,
there's a game that I'm playing and it's a balance
that I like to There's a line I like to

(42:46):
walk that makes it so it's still creatively fulfilling for me.
But I'm not going to obey whatever the next niche
thing I have to do in order to be big
on social media.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Do you find that, like in terms of your career.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
I mean totally. I mean we in the beginning. You know,
for me, the videos that I started with were me
just freestyling, almost kind of rough words poetry on topics
that I loved. They went viral by chance, like they
weren't crafted for a particular time length or a particular
editing pattern because I didn't know them. I was just

(43:23):
making videos and they went viral and people loved them,
and then I made more of those because I enjoyed them.
But the day I stopped enjoying making them, we stopped
Yeah beautiful, and then we created a new format where
I'd seen a lot of comedians who would do sketches
and there'd be hilarious ketches of real life. I was like, well,

(43:43):
what if I did sketches of real life? Like what
if I was to create real life experiences as dramatic
performances with messaging. So we did those and I loved it,
and those went viral, and then there was a day
I didn't enjoy making those anymore. I felt like I
was trying too hard to come up with story lines.
And then so we stop doing that, and then I
started the podcast, which I'm still doing today because it

(44:06):
feels like the most realist fluid form, because there is
no set structure to make an interview go viral. It's
truly a deep conversation. It's far less. There's not a
science to that as much, and if there is, I
don't enjoy it because I choose not to ask. I
have a rule that we have of not to ask
gossip based back questions, clickbait questions, because that's how we

(44:29):
protect our art in that I want the conversations to
be true and genuine and sincere. But basically, when I've
stopped finding something fulfilling as art, I've stopped doing it
because I've found that if I keep doing something I hate,
I'm going to end up hating parts of myself and
I'm going to feel disconnected from myself.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
We get a lot of bitter artists.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
What we have, you know, a practice that we're doing,
whether that's in the creation process or whether it's when
we share it. If we don't like it and we
keep doing it, we are going to become better. We
see a lot of bitter artists out there which are
so angry at what the world has made them. Do
you know, whether that's to sell their books or sell
their art or be seen on social media and they're
so pissed that they had to sacrifice their creative integrity

(45:11):
in order to be seen, and it just cannot be
worth it.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
I just I want.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Creatives to create with what feels good, exactly like you, j.
It's such a beautiful example. When it stops feeling good,
stop doing it, try something else.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Yeah, because it did feel good at one point and yeah,
and it was new and fresh and it was created.
And the funny thing is part of me that want
to go back to some of those now yea. And
so it's because I'm like, oh, I used to love
those videos eight years ago. Maybe if I reconnected to them,
I'd come at them from a really genuine place. And
so I can now go back home feeling happy rather
than go back home feeling bitter because I feel forced

(45:44):
to be there. Yeah, And so I feel like when
you let the algorithm dictate what you make, you feel
forced to be there, and it's almost like your parents
forcing you to come to family dinner and you don't
want to be there exactly. And I love what you
said about artists being rebels because I remember when and
I wrote Think like a Monk, my first book, and
fourteen out of seventeen imprints that I took meetings with

(46:06):
at different publishers told me not to call it Think
like a Monk, because they were like, Jay, who wants
to think like a monk? No, one wants to do that.
And it was this big thing that I rom with
this conversation, and we were talking earlier about when you're
writing your first book, you don't know how much to
push for and how much not to. That was something
I pushed for wholeheartedly, and I'm so glad that.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
I'm good glad you did.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
And you know, it's so interesting because same with my
second book. I was like, I had this view of
an artistic cover and I pushed for it again because
I believed in it so deeply and I could have
gone for the cover that they thought would sell the
most or whatever, And it was never that. It was
always like, I want to create something that I think
is beautiful and powerful and builds a movement.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Yeah, I think we've been taught to we've got to
create the thing that's going to go the most viral.
But what if we create something that impacts you know,
one hundred people, Like that's still incredibly worth it. I
think we're always aiming for virality. We're always aimed for
like again, it's that big, go big or go home.
Like what if we make art and share it in
a way that no, it doesn't go viral, but it

(47:07):
connects and it impacts and it maybe it only finds
one or two people, but it does its thing and
it and it resonates with them. I feel like artists
are always told, you know, go viral, be Taylor Swift,
or be a starving artist, and it's this binary that
doesn't serve us. I talk a lot about like I
want the I want this to be the era of
the middle class artist where it's like we don't need

(47:28):
millions and millions of dollars, we need, you know, a
stable income and we get to enjoy a stable income
and we're not the starving artist and we're not j Loo,
but we are thriving, joyful, you know, financially secure artists.
Like that's what I want for us, and I think
it's much more possible than we realize.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
You just talked about how you want this culture of
middle class artists, which I love that, Like that's such
a such a great vision and such a great mission
that you're in. I really like that because, like you said,
I think for so many years we've been told art's
not a real job, it won't make you a living,
what's the point, And we've subscribed to that, and then
you do a safe job and then you realize you
left your dream back there. Yeah, or you got lucky

(48:07):
enough and art did become a really big thing, but
then maybe you lost touch with the art you wanted
to create and you felt like you sold out. And
I've always described it as the selfish artist or as
a sellout artist. And it's like the selfish artists only
creates them for themselves, but then they don't ever get
to feel what it feels like to share their art,
and the sellout artist only creates for the audience, and

(48:28):
then they never create what they truly want. And the
balance is in between. Yeah, But when it comes to
monetizing your art, I feel like people are scared of
asking for money. We're scared of valuing our art accurately,
and then at the same time we're struggling to pay
our bills at points in our life. How do you
encourage people to think about monetizing their art and becoming

(48:49):
a middle class artist.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
There's so much shame around for all of us, whatever
we're doing. There's so much shame around money. But I
think for artists there are so many narratives. There's this
almost glamour around being the poor artist, and then as
you say, then there's the glamor around being like the
super mega famous artists, And there's no healthy story about
an artist who gets paid for what they do and
can live, you know, a sustainable life and you know

(49:12):
there's a value exchange and it feels good, and the
exchange of money feels good. And I feel like, for
me personally on my journey, like it's been the most
beautiful thing to realize that selling my art has felt
really good, and selling my books has felt so aligned.
I know that my stories are going to serve them
and there's a value exchange and they pay me for

(49:33):
my stories or they pay me for my words, and
it's felt really beautiful, like a very like a relationship,
but it's felt very intimate. It's felt very aligned. And
I always thought that it was going to feel icky,
or it was going to feel lucky, or that I
was going to feel like I was taking advantage of
them or manipulating them. But I've found a space where
it feels good, and I want artists to understand that

(49:54):
selling your art can feel good, and so I want
artists to start getting comfortable with the idea that art
is valuable. That's maybe the part of the problem, Like
we don't understand that art is valuable. People think, oh,
you know, food is valuable because it feeds me, or
you know, I need a computer because I need to
do work on it. But we don't really understand the
value of art. And it is incredibly hard to put

(50:14):
a monetary value on art. I mean, I have so
many conversations with creatives being like, how do I put
a like a dollar sign on my art? And that
is hard, it can feel very arbitrary. But art has value.
Art brings so much value to other people, and the
artist needs to learn that because I think there's too
many creatives going around out there thinking, oh, I'm just

(50:36):
I'm making decoration for the world, or I'm just doing
something that's so silly. I'm telling stories, I'm making movies.
But it's just, you know, it doesn't make a difference.
Art makes a difference. And we're getting some very cool
research coming in about how art impacts us physically, how
it impacts our mental health, how it impacts our communities,
like art changes us. But artists don't recognize that, and

(50:58):
we still think we're doing something frivolous, when in reality,
we are doing something incredibly profound that is making real change,
political change, personal change, biological change to other people around us.
You deserve money for that. That story needs to sink in,
and then that value exchange is going to feel so
much better.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
So powerful. I'm so glad you made it so easy
and clear, and it's so true. Have so many friends
who are artists who do something it's quite easy for them,
or it's effortless for them, and then they're scared. And
there's this beautiful, old made up story that I heard
a long time ago, where it's not true at all,
but it's got a nice message. And Picasso walks into

(51:36):
the marketplace and this lady seeves Picasso and she says, picassa,
will you draw me a portrait? He says, sure, I'll
draw your portrait. So he grabs a pen and paper
and he draws a portrait of her and he gives
it back to her and she says, Picasso, that took
thirty seconds, and he's like, it took me thirty years
to do that in thirty seconds. And it's like, when
you're working as an artist, you're almost recognizing and reminding
yourself that when you're putting a value in your work,

(51:59):
you're putting value on all the training, all the pain,
all the stress, all of that that went into that
piece that maybe have taken you twenty hours, maybe it
took you two hours, maybe it took you two minutes.
But there's so much experience that went into that piece.
And so whether it was a quote on Instagram or
whether it was a piece of art, we're always valuing
how long it took us to do the thing, not

(52:21):
how longs to live what it took to do that thing.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
I also think we think that because art can be
joyful or easy to make, that it shouldn't be worth money.
Because I had a really good time writing my book,
I should give away it for free, yes, which is ridiculous.
I think we almost feel like we've got it too good.
Could I love the process and be paid for it? Yes,
you could, because your art has a lot of value
and you deserve to be paid for it. Again, I

(52:48):
want artists to understand what you are making has value,
you deserve money for it.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Yeah, yeah, no, And I think about it all the time.
There's also this feeling of if you're doing something truly
to help people, it should be absolutely free. And that's
a really interesting one. God, you have a reaction. I
can see your reaction to that.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
So I think it happens for artists a lot too.
And I get a lot of creatives telling me that
all they're family members asking for free art or you know,
if you really wanted the world to change, you would
give it away for free. Lots of narratives again, constantly
asking artists to work for free, devaluing creatives, devaluing artists.
And it's so painful because it's kind of a seductive narrative.

(53:29):
I actually really want to hear what you have to
think about it. But this idea that it's only generous
if there's not a value exchange, it's just so cruel
and it leaves artists. First of all, it perpetuates the
scarcity story and the artists support we have the money,
which means we end up not creating that much, which
means we don't have the money, which means we're working
multiple jobs, which means we can't.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Create the art.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Like, if we don't support and nourish artists with money,
we lose artists. So we need to be paying our artists.
If you want more art, if you want an art
a world that is filled with books and movies and
creations and music and beautiful gardens and good food, we
need to support our artists. And I still think that
when we put our art up for sale and when

(54:11):
we sell it, it is a profoundly generous act, especially
when we ask for money for it in return.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
Yeah, you asked my opinion on it, It's similar to yours.
I remember at one point in my life, I was
I had one hundred million views, and I was four
months away from being broke, and I was starting to think, Okay,
I'm going to have to go back to work. I'm
going to have to get a job again. And I
know that the job I would probably get would be demanding,

(54:37):
because that's the job i'd get with my education and
everything I have, and therefore I'd probably not be able
to do much of this anymore. And that means if
I can't make this anymore, but the one hundred million
views I have, the comments and everything i'm reading a say,
this really helped me, This changed my life. I shared it.
I like all the comments I'm reading are like, people
are benefited by this, but I'm not going to be
able to do that anymore because I don't know how.

(54:58):
And I remember going through that whole process and I
was thinking, well, wait a minute. And at that time,
I was shaming and giving myself or even thinking that
I could charge for something, and I was like, well,
how do I do that? And like, but people are
getting value from it. But then I really want to
do it for free because that's how I was trained
to always and obviously with my monk background, it's like
everything was for free and everything was charity work, and

(55:20):
so I really had that conditioning. And then I thought
to myself, well, if I give up what I love
that helps people and serves people and I can't do
it any longer, is that the world I want to
live in? And it was a really clear answer where
it was like, well, no, I want to live in
a world where I could do this forever. I can
help more people do what they want to do. We
can even create teams that will all be living a

(55:42):
purposeful life that they want to excuse me that they
want to live in. Yeah, and we'll be able to
hopefully impact so many more people who will create amazing
journeys for themselves. And I'm so glad that, despite any
criticism shame guilt that comes with that path, I'm glad
I made that choice because I'm far happier having pursued
that then I would have been if I just went, Okay,

(56:03):
well I'm done. I'm done now because I can't afford
to do what a huge.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Loss for the whole world if you would have been like,
I'm done.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
And for myself and for you. Yeah, and the creative
of like just also just not just thinking about well
I can't make more if I don't have enough to
make with, like yeh, Whom'm going to pay to edit
the video exactly to film this? And how all of
this and there was even even with the podcast, which
which is free. And I always thank everyone for us
allowing to have our sponsors and our ad partners, which

(56:31):
is the way we're able to do this. And we're
so I always said this to everyone, We'll not everyone.
I say this to my friends behind closed doors. I'm like,
we're so selective over which brands we work with, which
companies we partner with in order to present that to
our community, and we probably leave more on the table
than we even make because of that desire to get
it right. And I'm not saying that to sound holy

(56:51):
than now or sound what I'm saying is everything's done intentionally,
and I think if it's done intentionally, there's a heart
there and there's a a truth there of wanting to
serve and wanting things to be good. Yeah, and the
podcast is absolutely free, but there are certain things that
may not be if that person wants to hold that
integrity to themselves.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
And no, it makes a huge amount of sense. I
think artists are just constantly people always want to call
them out for selling out. And I don't know why
we're so vulnerable to that narrative. Because you don't go
up to your accountant who's doing, you know, important work,
and say why are you being paid for this? We
don't go up to we don't ask other people why
do you want money for your job? But we ask

(57:34):
artists that all the time. We ask creatives that all
the time. And it's interesting and I don't fully understand
the narrative there, but I question it, and I want
to like double down, like we deserve to be paid
and we deserve not to be questioned about that as well, like,
of course we bring value, we deserve money.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's because and that's a great point,
it's like wanting to understand it. I think it's because
emotional and spiritual exchanges are not valued in society as
deeply right, Like you can't. We all know there's people
you meet that energetically make you feel better, Yeah, because
you don't known to pay for that as an energetic exchange.

(58:13):
You almost think it's impure if you had to pay
for it. So we see money as impure, and we
see art as pure.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Yeah, and we don't like them touching correct, Whereas I
want to very gently suggest that art is like messy,
human like not pure at all. It is wholly an
incredible and the most important force ever, but it's messy
and it's human. And it's same with money. It's like,
you know, none of these things are impure or pure,
where they're all very human ideas, and I believe aren't

(58:41):
money belongs together.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
I love that. I want to ask you a few
more about some emotions that artists often go through. I
think one of them today is oversaturation, this feeling of
it's oversaturated. Like I was looking at someone the other
day a friend of mine said to me, they said, gee,
I feel like you were one of the first podcasts.
And I was like, I think you must be kidding, right,
and they're like, no, no, no, I think you were

(59:02):
like one of the first podcasts. I was like, I
lount my podcast in twenty nineteen, and I pulled up
this train I googled it. There were three hundred and
thirty six thousand podcasts that existed in twenty nineteen, and
of course there are so many before that that were
that were well known and big as well. And it
was like, but to them, because I was the first
podcast they'd discovered, I must have been the first podcast.
And I was like, it's really the first thing of

(59:25):
anything that takes off as lessons is whatever. Today, I
think there's over probably.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
I was about to ask, do you know the number?

Speaker 3 (59:32):
I think I could be wrong, but maybe like two
million maybe today? Oh yeah, And so I'm sure it's
high because it's been five years since I.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Still I want to say, though, like two million isn't
that high? Not like there's seven billion of us. People like,
I couldn't start a podcast. It's saturated. I'm like, it is.
There's two million podcasts. There are so many of us,
there are billions of us. I think we can kind of.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Get the scale.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
A bit confused, sometimes totally, but yeah, whenever anyone says
I can't it's oversaturated.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Plus, there's no noise like your noise. There's nothing that you. Again,
you're a one time phenomenon. You're never going to be repeated.
You have something to say, this's never been said. You
have a viewpoint that will never be replicated. You almost
have your own market.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Yes, there's so much. I see that more and more
when I see creators come up, and I'm like, there
is so much demand in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
We're so hungry. Yeah, art to be seen.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
And you can make people feel seen in a way
that no one else can. And that's your superpower and
that's what's so beautiful about you, and that's what's needed,
because you're going to make someone feel seen, heard, and
understood in a way no one else can, in a
way I can't, in a way you can't, in a way.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
I love that, Yeah, I really I often use this
example when people talk about oversaturation and art, because I
think art sits in a really different space to other products. So,
for example, like a toaster, I only want one toaster. Oh,
I could maybe want to but basically I want one toaster.
But I want hundreds of books I want. I can

(01:01:01):
watch so many films, I can have so much art
around me, Like I want so many different types of
plants for my garden. I want, you know, to try
different types of food.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
Like, we have a really really big appetite for art.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
And so when people come in and say, oh, I
couldn't possibly be a writer. There's so many writers in
the world, I'm like, I can't have enough books, Like
I'm mainlining them on audiobooks, like just all the time.
Like art is not toaster, it's not a fridge. We
don't need just one of them. We have a much
bigger market than you realize. And I always feel whenever

(01:01:33):
a creative, I very gently say this, when a creative
comes to me and says I can't it's oversaturated, I go,
there's got to be another reason. Yes, you're playing small,
like cause it sounds great, sounds like a perfect excuse,
But we need your voice there is no noise. No
noise like your noise start taking up space. Yes, and
like two million podcasts seven billion of us and don't

(01:01:55):
want more podcasts. I listened to new podcasts all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
Actually, and most people have found listening to a collecttion
a podcast totallyople.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Dad was asking that, like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
How do you feel about so many other podcasts coming up?
And that's the funny thing. It's like, that's the conversation
when you're established in the conversation when you're new, is
there's too many? Yes, everyone's like oh, and I'm like
I love it because most people are listening to like
two or three different podcasts at the same time. It's
how we like, we don't all go I only watch Netflix.
It's like, no, I like shows on Apple, and I
like some shows on whatever else there is here. Sorry,

(01:02:25):
I only know the HBO and Hulu and whatever else
there is. It's like you don't just go, oh no, no,
I only watch this one platform. I only watch YouTube.
I don't use Instagram, like it doesn't work like no, and.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Like on Instagram it's like, oh, there there's an oversaturation
of poets.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
I'm like, I give me all the poets.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
I'm not just following one poet on Instagram. Yeah, and
there's a renaissance for so many art forms at the
moment because of social media, because we have this like
connection economy, and there is more space than ever before,
and it can feel like there's a lot of noise
because of these spaces, and because when you scroll through
Instagram you can.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
See a lot of creators.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
But it's because we're hungry for it, and more than ever,
we're hungry for very vulnerable, real connection. We're hungry for
art in a world where we're showing a lot of
you know, listicals or like viral content, Like, we're hungry
for human expression and so it's time for artists to
step up, take up space, share their art, and make
things because we're desperate for it. So yeah, I really

(01:03:25):
won't hear anything to do with the saturated market.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
I would shut that down.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
Another emotion I think a lot of artists experience is jealousy. Yeah,
if we're being really honest, jealousy and envy of like
I wish I had that, I wish I've got those views.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Yeah, I'm jealous, but I am but I see jealousy
as a compass I think it can be a beautiful emotion.
If we let it fester, it can be toxic. I
love the way you use your platforms. I love the
art you make, I love the way that you use
this podcast like and then there is a definite like
almost it feels a bit like jealousy, like I want
what you have, But I can use that in a

(01:04:00):
way that is incredibly inspiring to me in my art,
and I know where it is I want to go.
I can learn from you, I can be taught by you.
I can follow in your footsteps. And if we can
use jealousy in that way rather than sinking down into
patterns of comparison, so instead of me sitting here and
being like, oh why am I not in Jay's position,
and like listing the reasons why and like comparing two

(01:04:23):
incomparable artists, I can say I can use jealousy as
a compass. And I really wish that artists could see
it in that way, because again, it's another emotion that
can take us down. I can feel constantly less than,
never enough, and I also feel like it's an emotion
that maybe doesn't go away. I'm not sure if that's
been your experience, if you've seen that it doesn't matter

(01:04:43):
how big you get, there's always someone who's got something
that maybe you want or something like that, and it
just that if you don't get a handle on it.
I feel like it's not something that, yeah, it doesn't
fade away with success.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
Yes. Yeah. There's two questions I ask clients of mine
when I'm coaching them, And the firstsion is who do
you envy? And there's no one that I've met, no
matter how successful they are, that doesn't know that word
on the tip of their lips that they know it.
And I've found that learning to deal with envy and

(01:05:14):
transform it is core to happiness and fulfillment in life
because you can't forget even how much you do what
you love. Even if you did what you love every
day and it paid you well, you'd still be unhappy
if you had envy in your life. Like envy is
that force? That what you're saying to use it as
a compass and what I often do. And I said

(01:05:35):
this to you the moment you walked in, because I
love it the way you write. I said to you, oh, yeah,
I probably need to take a workshop with you. And
that's me saying I'd rather study with you than envy you. Like,
that's the choice I get to make. I'd rather study
you and your work and how you've learned that, and
study with you and grow and have a relationship with
a mentor than to envy that person and want to

(01:05:58):
never give myself the opportun unity to grow and become,
but only to unbecome and unlearn and kind of go backwards.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
That was stunning.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
I loved everything you just said so much. I feel
like it's so beautiful. The idea that it's an opportunity
to level up as soon as you feel that jealousy
and envy, I think you've got two options. It's like
you could really let this take you down, or you
could really let this take you up. So it's very exciting.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Yeah, it's a similar with imposter syndrome. I have to
feel like imposter syndrome is a sign that you've leveled
up as well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
Yes, you're in that new skin and.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
It feels like uncomfortable, but yeah, it's an opportunity to say, no,
I'm going to learn from you. I'm gonna, yeah, sit
at your feet. I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
Yeah, absolutely, we need your art is out right now
I'm excited for everyone to grab a copy of the book. Amy,
is there anything that I haven't asked you that really
on your heart or something you wanted to talk about
that we somehow didn't get to that that you want
to share now that intuitively is coming to you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Yeah, I mean we could talk for a long long time. Sure,
I think I want to talk about how when I
wrote we Need Your Art, and it was, you know,
not long ago. I love that I got to speak
to the creative experiences from in the trenches, and because
it can be such a challenging experience navigating yourself as

(01:07:12):
a creative. There's so much rejection, silence, you know, imposter syndron, comparison,
like so much of what we've spoken about. And I
love that I got to write this book in it
like I'm still experiencing rejection, still experiencing silence.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
And I love that I got to, yeah, delve into
this topic with everyone as we all navigate it. And Yeah,
I'm very excited for people to get to read this
book and for me to be on that journey with them.
Like the greatest privilege in the world for me is
to sit by an artist and watch them create. There's
no greater honor to me. So yeah, I'm very excited

(01:07:48):
for this, this book Baby to be in people's hands.

Speaker 3 (01:07:50):
That's beautiful me too. I really believe it's going to
be that, you know, that generational book that's going to
inspire all these new creatives and artists at time when
I don't feel ever since social media took off, we've
really had a book that speaks to that dilemma of
being an artist. And I feel like we need your
arts that book.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
So thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
I'm really excited for you and excited for everyone have it.
Excited to read it myself and have it. But Amy,
we end every On Purpose episode with a final five.
These have to be answered in one word to one
sentence maximum. So Amy mcne these are your fast final five.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
I've been preparing. I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever
heard or received?

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
I love what Liz Gilbert says when she says this
world is just a school for endless learning. I love
this idea, and I feel like you embodied this so much.
It's like this is just a school for endless learning.
We just get to keep being curious, keep learning, keep
making mess and then finding something magic within it. And
I love taking that into each day because it allows

(01:08:54):
for so much room and it gives me even if
it's shitty or I think it's good, I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
I love it. Question number two, what is the worst
advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
Honestly? Like, in a more general term, it's be careful.
I wanted to recklessly pour myself into my art. I
wanted to be risky, and the words I kept getting
was be careful, and it made me feel like I
was doing something wrong. But I love the invitation for
artists to rebel, to be the revolution, to just be
messy and recklessly like throw themselves into this creative life.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
I just got goosebumps. I was like, that's really Like,
it's so right that that cautiousness, which is for safety
but always ends up feeling like it trapped you instead
of key.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. Question number three, what
is the worst piece of art you've ever made? Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
Man, you should talk to my partner. So we write
books together, and so I'll write the first draft and
then he'll read it, and watching his face as he
reads my first draft.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
He's like, what is the he's here right now?

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
And I mean it's because and I pride myself in this.
I write spectacularly shitty first drafts, and I'm genuinely proud
of it because I just word vomit.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
It's just la la la la la.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
There's so much magic in there, but it is difficult
to navigate as an editor, and poor James really has
to wade through some shit. But I'm incredibly proud of
my first drafts.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
That's great.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
And what is your favorite piece of art that you've
ever created.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
I wrote a fiction book called Regrettably I Am About
to Cause Trouble, and it's just that it's that don't
be careful kind of vibe. It's a witchy historical fiction
like rebel book, and I loved it. Was this reckless,
abandoned novel of just throw yourself in. So she has
a special place in my heart.

Speaker 3 (01:10:44):
I love that fifth and final question, which we asked
every guest who's ever been on the show, If you
could create a law that everyone in the world had
to follow, what would it be.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
I want people to make some shitty art. I want
you to find out what happens when you take affectionism
out of the equation and you just let yourself create.
So yeah, make shitty art, that's all I want.

Speaker 3 (01:11:08):
I love it, Amy mcnege. Everyone in the book is
called we Need Your Art. Who don't follow Amy already
on Instagram inspired to write Amy, It's been such a joy.
I look forward to getting to know you so much more.
I'm so excited for you to continue to create art
in this world, and we definitely need your art. So thanks.
So happy to connected with your work and found it organically,
fell in love with it, and it honestly does work

(01:11:31):
wonders for me when I'm struggling and figuring things out
and just go to your page and find something that
resonates very very deeply. So anything I do that helps anyone,
you get the credit for it too.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
Because yes, definitely, I.

Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
Wouldn't be able to do it without people like yourself. Y.

Speaker 2 (01:11:46):
Thank you for your art. We need your art. I'm
so grateful for you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
Thank you. Thanks Amy. If you love this episode, you'll
enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma
and how to be confident from the inside. Oh, my
therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
It was already tough.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
For me to love my body, but after the C
section scarf with all the stretch marks.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
But day three, when I did it, I was like,
you know what, her thighs are cute

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