June 6, 2024 • 35 mins
Yves and Katie share the mic with archivists who detail the funniest or most poignant stories they’ve discovered while in the stacks.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get
into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving
connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really
been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it
if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe
to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all,
Now time for the episode. On Theme is a production
(00:22):
of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
In the past couple of years, I've talked to a
bunch of people while reporting my book about black bookstores
pro to the people out early twenty twenty five. One
of those people is Brother y'all or Hokee S. Lover
the Third.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
My name is Brother Yao Hope Gus Glover the Third.
I'm chair of the Language, Literature and Cultural Studies program
at Buois State University. I've written two books of poetry,
and prior to working at the university, I was the
co owner of Caibu Books, one of the nation's largest
book stores.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
At one point, Brother y'all co owned the most successful
black bookstore chain in the country, Caribou Books, Kaboo Clothes,
and the Late Oats. We're on that in prose Now.
Brother y'ao is up at Bouoi State in Maryland and
the co author of Crazy as Hell, a refreshing, insightful,
and irreverend take on African American history. Crazy as Hell
(01:41):
just came out this week, and what struck me most
about it was how funny it was. As a student
of black history, I found it. It's often taught in
somber and CPA tones, and of course some of it
is somber, but some of it is funny, some of
it is poignant, and some of it makes you go,
I'll come on now, wait a damn it.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Today on our show, we're sharing the mic with archivists
from across the country and archivists who give us stories
that they're tired, they're poor, and they're blackfishing musicians. On
today's episode, we're passing the mic to authors and archivists
to hear their take on little known black history. I'm
Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode Archive Alive. Here's a
(02:23):
crazy as Hell story about a crazy as Hell rebel,
read by Yau.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Not much is known about Denmark Vessey. We do know
that he was a literate slave, like another of our
craziest hell heroes, not Turner, and we know that more
than one hundred years later, a white supremacist would slaughter
nine people at Vessy's church, mother, emmanuel A and me
and Charleston, South Carolina. You can look it up if
(02:50):
you want to to know more about the connection. Denmark
VESSI won the powerball on the South Carolina State lottery
in eighteen hundred, purchases freedom and began stockpiling weapons and
organizing folks for a slave vote. Of course we're kidding.
There wasn't a power ball back then, but the rest
is true. At the age of thirty two, Vessy purchased
(03:12):
his freedom with six hundred dollars after winning fifteen hundred
dollars in the lottery. Think about that. Black folks played
their numbers today, trying to win the lottery so they
can purchase their economic freedom. Vessey's real claim to fame
and what makes him crazy as hell, was his organizing
what many considered to be the largest plan for a
(03:33):
slave revolt in the history of the country. It is
said that as he planned a revolt, Vessey even sent
word to Haiti to begin to set up international relations.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And that's just one of mini profiles that Hoak and
his co author Via four Prince include in the book
Crazy as Hell is organized into different archetypes. Here's y'ao.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
This idea of framing who black people people are with
archetypes is really the way we get out of the oppositions.
That's at the core of like the way we view race.
Because a problem with black history is Black history is
usually white people are just so important in Black history
because of the oppositions, because of the binary. But the
(04:18):
solution is to create archetypes within black history so that
when black people are reading Black history, they're not simply
looking at themselves as opposed to whites. But now they
can say, I'm like the badass, I'm like the lawless,
I'm like the funky, I'm like these particular people in
(04:41):
Black history, And so that decenters this whole idea of
the importance of white people when we're telling a Black
history story.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, this was one of my favorite profiles and Crazy
as Hell, and I also think it shows like y'all fed,
like black people are still playing the lottery hoping to
get free. You know, it's not a different level, but
you know, I'll be looking at that little mega a
million sign and imagine in my life as a free woman.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And you're not the only one, okay, and you know
what else? What else? I would also take up arms
that part too. It is aspirational when you look up
at that sign and you're like that could be me.
But yes, as a means of economic freedom, it's not
just like we're doing this just for shits and gigs.
It's like we're actually trying to survive. And yes, it
(05:23):
is a hoarding of wealth, like it's far more wealth
than we would actually need to persist. I don't know.
I feel like in a way, yes it's more than
we need, but it could feel like an accumulation of
all of the wealth that we didn't have over time
and what we're owed. So technically it is what we
need to survive well.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
And in Denmark Vessi's case, I mean, I don't know
the translation in today's money, but he took that money
and was like, I'm talking piling weapons. I'm getting in
contact with Haiti and we're going to free more than
just me, which I just really respect, Like, you know,
you got to take folks with you, and I think
that's what people are really scared of, like when black
people not only get it for themselves but help other
(06:02):
people get it too.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah. I mean that money clearly is enough to go
beyond his own reach. And that was only half of
the money that he had. Yeah, I think lesson half,
lesson half.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, So amusing. Yeah. And you know, in addition to
speaking to people like brother Y'ao, I also found myself
in different archives across the country while researching parts of
the People. I was at the Shawanberg and Harlem, the
Auburn Avenue Research Library in Atlanta. I've worked with Afro
Charities at Baltimore, So I was all over the place
and I had this new found like appreciation and respect
(06:36):
for the archivist I encountered. So I found some funny
stuff in the archives. I found people's bills passed due
then running from their bill collectors, the law everybody. And
I was wondering, like, what other funny things that are
out there that these archivists who spend a lot of
time helping people find things, like people like me researching books,
are just doing their own research.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
What else is in there? So today we are passing
the mic onto archivists to hear some of those stories
more after the break.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Up.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Next, Britney Newberry, music and popular culture archivist at Georgia
State University Library, she highlights a pioneering incident of auditory blackface.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
It started with a voicemail, a voicemail that took me
back to nineteen forty four.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Hello, I have a podcast and I am going to
be featuring a song that Johnny Mercer had recorded called
I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Savannah born and raised lyricist Johnny Mercer was voted the
most popularly Young Colored Singer on the Radio from the
Abraham Lincoln Junior Club, an all black organization based in Chicago.
Johnny Mercer was soaring high. His radio program, Johnny Mercer's
Chesterfield Music Shop, was sponsored by Chesterfield Cigarettes. Johnny songs Jeepers,
(08:20):
Creepers and One for My Baby and One More for
the Road received acclaim and he was writing songs for
films and musicals. He would later go on to write
lyrics for Grammy and Oscar, winning songs like Moon River
and The Days of Wine and Roses. According to the
ad execs for this radio show, this award for most
(08:42):
Popular Young Colored Singer on the Radio, certainly must be
his signal honor. But there was a problem. Johnny Mercer
was white. There was no evidence indicating he gave the
award back due to the error or even wreck.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Did the mistake? And why is that?
Speaker 5 (09:02):
How did this happen? I go back to the voicemail.
As Georgia State's music and popular culture artists, I received
various requests from people looking for something in the archives.
Can I get a copy of the sheet music for
this song or that song? What information do you have
on the Atlanta Symphony Youth Orchestra. Can I see the
performance contracts you have from the Atlanta International Pop Festival?
(09:27):
And on and on, And this day was no different.
The caller was looking for information on the song I
Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City, sung by Johnny Mercer.
According to the researcher, the original recording had a unique
change to it that was not present in other recordings,
a distinct patter section in the middle of the song.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Salt Lake City is renowned for its beauty.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
The snowcapped Washsatch Mountains are nearby.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
After returning the call, the research question came down to this,
did Johnny Mercer sing like he was black, and is
the power section of this song evidence of that. I
put my archivist hat on and I went searching, pulling
boxes and searching folders, and I found the original correspondence
and postcard notifying him of winning the award. It's one sentence.
(10:26):
The Abraham Lincoln Junior Club of this city has this
date voted you the most popular young colored singer on
the radio. Harris Owens, secretary. The letter from the radio
show AD executives called it the award for most Popular
Singer on the Radio, leaving out colored. It even references
(10:49):
receiving a lot of mail congratulating the AD company. He
won the award in nineteen forty four, and the song
was released in nineteen thirty four. I gave this information
as well as copies of the lyrics, to the researcher
and let them decide. Johnny Mercer was born in nineteen
o nine to an upper class family. His family employed
(11:09):
black housemaids, who sparked his interests in jazz and blues.
As a child, he played with black friends and learned
to speak Geechee, the African Creole dialect of Savannah. As
a teenager, he listened to what were called Race records
by Bessie Smith, Louis Armstrong, and Maul Rainey at the
record stores in Savannah's Black business district. My job as
(11:32):
an archivist is not to form and give my opinions,
but to provide information so that researchers can make informed
decisions and interpretations. So I invite you to do the same.
Listen to I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City
and other songs by Mercer and decide for yourself. Was
Johnny Mercer part of the time honored American tradition of
(11:55):
stealing from black people or was he simply influenced by
the culture and people around him. What does it mean
for him to win an award not meant for a
white man? And what does it mean to sound black? Anyway?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I Lost My Sugar in Salt.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
So what did you think about mister Mercer? Mister Mercer
was giving contemporary times, Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
He said, I mean, I don't know if he was
ahead of his time, because you know, I wasn't you
know around back then.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Maybe they were just doing that. But I was like, oh,
you would have fit in Yes, you would fit twenty four. Yeah,
he was really trying hard to make himself seem like
he was somebody who he was not.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Okay, But here's the realty. And I spoke with Brittany
about this, and for the record, Brittany absolutely disagreed with
this take that I'm about to share. But I thought
that the reason that he accepted this award is because
he was passing. Okay, because, as she said that he
grew up in Savannah. Yeah, was around the Gulla Geechee folks.
(13:06):
We'll go to the black record store. She completely disagreed.
She said he was from a very prominent family. Everybody
knew his family, everybody knew they were white. But I'm like,
that's exactly what a prominent white family would do. The
mother would sneak off, have her a little black baby
and be happy that it could pass. And he knew.
And black people be clocking people that are passing. They
don't be saying too much. They let them live, but
(13:27):
they're like, I know you're black.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Okay. So two things. One, I looked at a picture
of him and I did wonder, not even gonna lie.
I was like, these features be black, Yes they could.
It was giving m a lota Okay. But my question
for you is if the theory is that he was passing.
Why would he want to out himself in a way
(13:49):
by accepting the award as being a colored person.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I think it's just like a little nod, a little wink,
like yeah you saw me, okay, And cause it could
be like ohl, like they think I'm black, they don't
know I'm white, but really they know the truth.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But Brittany said like that wasn't true.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
He was kind of one of those white people that
were like hung out with other black musicians, but only
because they were the quote unquote good blacks, and would
say stuff like that, like little problematic things like that
he was the most racist guy out there. But you
know he wasn't no civil rights activist or anything like that, right,
So that was my take on it. That's what I
thought might be going on. But yeah, there's so many
(14:28):
artists that be white and you think they're black.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
But is that on us or is said on them?
Is that them being performatively black or is that just
us not understanding that other people can like work within genres.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I don't know, because nobody listening to himinem go think
he's black even though he's in a black genre. Like
no one's going to listen to that and be like,
that's a black man, you know what I'm saying. So
you can be in the genre and still sound white.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I think that's tough because I mean, there are plenty
of times when I hear people and I don't know
what race they are, but you don't know what race
they are.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
But I think there is a difference between being like, oh,
I can't place this voice versus like, the way this
person talks is like a black person.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
They're affecting a black dialect in their language and black intonation. Yes,
and that's what mister Mercer was doing, I believe.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, yes, he is
an archetype or a prototype for all of the people
who are doing that today because there are so many
people in hip hop who do it. So I think
there is also an element that the first time you
hear somebody, unless they're like markedly white, you know what
I mean, Right, the first time you hear somebody performing rap,
(15:37):
if they have a voice, even if they aren't putting
on any sort of affects or dialects, you assume that
they're black. Because it is a genre that we created
and we are more prominent in it and more numerous.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
But Johnny Mercer's song wasn't a rap song. No, they
thought the Lincoln Group, the All Boys, all African American group,
thought he was black. But I do think that it's
probably like something that occurred more during that time, because
now we're like a very celebrity centric society, at least
here in the United States. So if you hear somebody,
(16:10):
you might go, you know, look them up, see who
their kids are, see who their parents are, like, try
to learn all these things about him. But if you
just like hear a guy on the radio, like in
the thirties, you're going to be like, okay, And that's
kind of it. So it might be easier to mistake
people's identities maybe race, maybe gender, and all all types
(16:32):
of things you get confused because you just hear them
on the radio and then go about your day.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So I'm imagining Mercer as a child listening to records
and loving them and not having a consciousness around race
except for probably all the racist things that he was
starting to be in viute with. But Brittany talked about
how he listened to race records, and I'm thinking about
how popular those were So I'm imagining Mercer listening to these,
falling in love with them, hearing them around the house,
(16:58):
having people, adults who were in his life, playing this,
and he starts to sing that way, the same way
as he heard other people sing. At some point I
would imagine he developed a consciousness around race. Is it
okay for him to continue to sing in that style
of music regardless of race? Or should he have pulled
(17:18):
back on trying to imitate those people that he might
have considered people who really influenced the his style of
singing as he got older and started putting out his
own records.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I mean it proved okay for him. He went on
to be very successful. That wasn't the only award he
was winning Chile. So other people liked it, and to
be fair, I haven't you know, went and listened to
his whole catalog. So maybe this is the only song
where he let his little black percentage pop out, you know,
so he could be founding like a regular white man
(17:51):
and all his other discography. I don't know, but yeah,
it was giving a precursor to Danny lay.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Meme reference for the online girlies. Is that a meme?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Oh, it's a white woman who's pretending to be a
black woman. A singer, maybe R and B pop, but
he was definitely laying the groundwork for the black fishing.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So to answer Brittany's question, what does it mean to
sound black anyway?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I think it's not something that you can really like
quantify with words. Yeah, do you think I sound black?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
No? Well, I feel like that's not the best.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
That's what was funny to me. Yeah. I don't think
it's something.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
That you can truly quantify. And that's why AI will
never replace humans.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I think we have a special lay on it as
black people though. Yeah, I think we know it better
than anybody else what a black person would say or
would sound like.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Right, So that's why I'm saying that group that heard
him and then gave him that award, I think they
were really picking up on something that was, you know,
underneath the surface.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
For our last story, we're getting into some no.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
No, I will go to jail behind this.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
That's after the break. Stay with us.
Speaker 6 (19:16):
My name is Tiffany Atwater Lee. I'm the head of
Research Services at the Atlanta University Center Robert W. Woochef
Libraries Archives Research Center. So I'm gonna tell a story
about the widow of my favorite archable character here at
the aec witch Off Library, and that is Miss Virginia Hope.
Mister Virginia Hope was an organizer and a community activist,
(19:38):
but she was also the wife of the first African
American president of a Morehouse and Atlanta University, doctor John Hope.
After his passing in nineteen thirty six, she did some
interesting things to ensure that the legacy of her husband
was maintained, and that included some controversy with the Atlanta
University Center or the Atlanta University President. So around nineteen
(20:01):
thirty seven, right after the passing of her husband, she
starts to write about getting access to these personal files
that her husband gave her keys to and said one
day you may need these. And so she's writing to
the president of the Board of Trustees, asking can I
get these files? I've gotten some files from his personal secretary,
(20:24):
but I know that there's more, like there has to
be more, and so the Board of Trustees president can't
really help, you know, he's the Board of Trustees president.
And so she decides after about a year and a
half of waiting and really not getting anywhere. She's just
going to take them. So she bypasses the president at
the time, and she goes to the administration building, the
(20:50):
President's office when she knows that both the president his
secretary as well as the former president in the interim
period is not in the city of Atlanta, and she
finds a custodian and she basically says, I left my
person there. Can you help me get in there? And
everybody knows Virginia Hope, she's the former first Lady, so
they let her in. Then they start to get a
(21:12):
little skeptical when they realize she has movers downstairs and
so what the supervisor of the custodian is like, she's
taking file cabinets. So he writes a telegram to the
president of the university, who's rufus Clement at the time,
and it's like Ms. Hope is stealing or not stilling.
He didn't say stealing, he said she's taking these files,
(21:34):
and so Clement stops his trip and hurries back to Atlanta,
and of course the files are missing, and Leginia is ghost.
He cannot find her. He is calling everywhere trying to
find out. Luckily, he finds what moving company she used
and goes to the moving company and says, you know,
(21:56):
I get that she paid for this storage unit, so
you can't give the materials to us, but can you
limit access so she can't get in there until we
find out essentially who owns these materials. So the movie
company is like, sure, we can do that. So in
this time, they're still trying to write to miss Hope
get to understand where she is, and she's not answering anything.
She eventually goes to the movers to try to sort
(22:18):
through these materials herself, and the movers are like, no,
you can't. You can't look at these files. So then
she calls Clement. In that discussion, which he talks about
in a correspondence to the President of the Board of Trustees,
he basically says that missus Hope said, I didn't want
to involve you in this because they had nothing to
(22:38):
do with you. It was before your presidency, and these
files belonged to us or to me and my family,
and so he has said, you know, we can go
through these files together and look through them and anything
that belongs to the university. We keep anything that you
need you have, and so she's like, no, no, I
will go to jail behind this and I will lift
(22:58):
everything out on the stand and for everyone to see it.
If AU doesn't want that, you all need to go
ahead and let me go through these materials myself. And
so he's like no, He's still trying to compromise, and
so at one point she says, I'll give you back
the files if you change all the locks and you're
the only person that can have the key, and so
he's like, why would I do that when the only
(23:20):
other people who would have access to this are the
people who already had access to this, including your husband's
former secretary. And so Virginia doesn't like that, so she
basically stops talking to them again. So he's writing to
the board of trustees and is like, we need to
get these files back, but we don't want to cause
(23:40):
a controversy because that could do a disservice to our
institution as well as the reputation of Mishope, And so
word starts to get out. There's even a telegram from
the Pittsburgh Courier. They write to Clymt and is like,
we heard y'all about the sue Virginia Hope, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
With that.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
So they're going through this process and then someone has
an idea stop Virginia's checks, don't let her get any
pension from her husband. And so when they stop the checks,
Virginia of course pops back up and so now she's
willing to talk and say, okay, how can we get
these files? And so, long story short, they decided to
(24:22):
go ahead and have it where Leginia Son, the former
secretary of her husband, as well as the President Rufus
Clement go through these records and divide up the materials.
Those that belong to doctor Hope goes back to his family,
those that belong to AU stay with AU. After all
of this, AU thinks that this was a victory. They're
(24:43):
able to maintain the relationship with Missus Hope, They're able
to not have any controversy, get out and get the
files back. However, Virginia doesn't feel that way, and so
she writes to a huge benefactor of AU and says, essentially,
I just lost the will to fight, and so I
just still feel like justice wasn't served and I don't
(25:05):
have all of my materials. And the reason why this
is such an important thing that I found was because
all of this stuff was inaccessible. This was in a
huge envelope marked with red stamps confidential, confidential, confidential. It
(25:27):
said not to be used or looked at unless under
the permission of the president of Atlanta University. And I
found this back in let's say, maybe twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen,
so you know, Atlanta University doesn't exist. It consolidated with
Clark College back in nineteen eighty eight. So I'm like,
what is this? So I'm looking through it, and essentially
(25:49):
what I believe I have discovered are files that eventually
become the John and Legenia Hope collection that is accessible
on microphone, that we have that not only their personal
relationships and personal papers, but also that of the institutions
in which and organizations in which they were active members in.
We also have materials related to the AU presidential records.
(26:12):
And so to me, what this really signifies is one
the ability for institutions to see humanity and understand this
woman essentially just wanted her husband's papers, but also we're
an organization. You can't just be still in our papers, right.
And then there's also the understanding of at that time,
this is nineteen thirty seven, nineteen thirty eight. Historically, black
(26:35):
institutions are already kind of given side eyes, right their
thought of as not being equipped or professional and things
like of that nature. So if this got out, this
really disturbed the reputation that they have been building. I mean,
a woman literally walked out with two file cabinets from
the President's office. But also I really like it because
(26:56):
it kind of just shows, you know, Legia Hope has
some position. Again, most importantly, it's providing access to these
stories because they're everyone. Everyone has a story, maybe not
where they stole papers from an administration building, but taking
matters in their own hand and getting what they want,
but also preserving the legacy of their loved ones for
(27:17):
those who come after us.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Okay, so put yourself in Mishope shoes. Okay, would you
be ready to go to jail about some papers by
your your late husband's papers?
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You know, I want to believe that I would. So
I don't know if me saying yes I would would
be the honest thing, Like I'm trying to imagine being
in that time as well in doing it. But I
want to say that I would you it. I feel
like I would. So you are still from the university.
I feel like I would, I'm my God, just because
I know how like important my family's papers that I
(27:54):
do have are to me now. I think because of
the perspective that I have now, like I have so
many of my mom's papers and she's not anymore. I
cherish those papers. So I'm like wondering the links that
I would go to to get them now, dealing with
administrations and official things. I don't know that to be truthful,
you know, whether I would do it, but because I
(28:16):
do care about having papers, and I like collect old things,
you know, I like to collect old things. I collect
old things of people that I don't even know, So
I feel like I might with asterisks maybe, well, what did.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You think the papers would be like in like more
I don't want to say, like safer hands, but maybe
more like, I don't know, secure hands with the university,
because the university is gonna outlive you, and you know,
maybe even outlive anybody in your family who would care
to keep up with these papers.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, I think that's a valid point. I think from
a sentimental perspective, not a logical one, though I might
want to have them in my.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Hands because I was asking Tiffany, I was like, why
was she going to work for these papers? Like I
don't think I'd be doing all that, you know, I
truly don't think I would be doing all that. I
was like, what was she doing? Like why was she
doing this? So you know, where did these academic streets
are that within these papers was evidence that he had
a mistress or two.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Between that story and the one you gave at the
beginning about Mercer passing you, you really want some extra
drama in these situations. You want a whole reality TV show.
It's humans. Like that's the thing with archives.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
You think like, oh, these people are you know, these
you know just historical figures. These are people and they
were into some drama, and you gotta think like this
upstanding lady, you know, well known in the community, well respected,
you talk about I'll go to jail about this. Maybe
why because you didn't want people know about them mistresses?
Speaker 1 (29:35):
So how did they already know about the mistresses? Though?
So if this is word on the street, she just
didn't want to have confirmation of them.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
No, we're in the academic streets. So people who like
research after the five right, you know, if your man
got a mistress because it was a mix of university
papers and personal papers.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's one idea. I think I have no idea if
that's true or not. But do you think that she
would still go to those same lengths just for that,
Like I don't know if we also know that the
was Luginia's character, like she wouldn't have wanted that out there,
that was something that was important to her. But do
you think that she would have gone to those lengths
to cover up personal misgivings like that, Like that would
(30:14):
have justified her doing that still?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I mean, yeah, I don't know her personality, but just
kind of thinking of like the time and like, you know,
they're high society people and it's just like embarrassing. So
I can definitely see this prim proper lady kind of
being like, you know, you're.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Still mourning your husband just died.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
You're like, I don't want everybody know like all his
business like that, and then you know, by the transit
of property my business.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I was imagining the whole Mission Impossible theme in my
head in the background of her going inside. I mean,
she didn't even do a that she was basically just
walked in and got them cabinet and said, can you
let me? It's social engineering. People do it all the time. Yeah,
just like ask for what you want.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And then they were like, oh no, she's breaking the
law now, but too scared to actually stop her.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
So hey, I left something in the room.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
You know something, But you don't play if like someone
is afraid to stop you and you're clearly doing something wrong,
you send it a telegram instead.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
She was on those people's heads.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But yeah, now that which your library at the AAC
has her husband's papers and her papers, so I'm sure
there's there's more tea and drama throughout those archives to
be discovered.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
But people can't access those papers, no they can.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah, sometimes when you go to the archives, you can
tell that no one has seen or like looked in
these boxes since they've been put in the boxes. Man
Tiffany even said she found the folder and it was
like wrapped up like top secret, like you know.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Do not read. It's just like I gotta look, I
gotta see what's going on. Blew the dust stuff got
the asbestis going. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, so there's so many things to still be discovered,
even if they're in archives, and you know, catalogs and everything,
and people just like don't look or like don't put
two and two together.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
So yeah, they're available. I liked this story because it
feels like it's kind of a microcosm of what you're
saying here, is that if you go through the archives,
you can find all these stories. And it's also about
a person's archive of their life, and we get to
see how Lucinia really cared for that archive, whether or
(32:09):
not it was for scandalous reasons, like she cared for
an archive and for like protecting the legacy of his
work and the things that he said in his own words.
So I really like this story for that perspective that
she gave us.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, like even if you don't agree with her methods,
even if she broke the law, Yeah you know, it
was passionate.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah it was. And sometimes passion trump's all. So the
ends always justifies the means. Okay, ask for forgiveness, not permission. No,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
So next time you find yourself in an old library
or museum, take a moment to slow down and really explore.
You never know what quirky, poignant, or downright bizarre stories
archives might hold. After all, as these authors and archivists
have shown us the most fascinating histories are often the
ones that have been tucked away patiently awaiting the right
person to uncover them and share them with the world.
(33:14):
And now it's time for role credits, the segment where
we give credit to a person, place, or thing that
we've encountered during the week eves. Who are what would
you like to give credit to?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I would like to give credit to the Black Archives
in Amsterdam. I was only able to visit them for
a little while when I was in Amsterdam recently, but
I got to look through the books that they had
a lot of them were in Dutch, so I could
not read them. But they had a nice exhibit up there,
(33:45):
and we're very friendly and yeah, they have loss of
cool stuff to see and I think if you go
with the group you can get a tour of the archives.
The archives are not available for research, but it's nice
to walk in. I think they do different exhibits there
from time to time and host lot of events that
are super interesting, so I like to give a shout
out to them.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I'd like to give credit to greeting cards, which is
something you often find in archives. I used to be
really into making greeting cards and giving them, and I
was like, that's a practice that I want to pick up,
not making them. Actually, I just want to pick up
giving greeting cards for like different occasions, you know, like
(34:26):
thinking of you, happy birthday.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Of course, just hey, we're pals, like let's keep in
touch type.
Speaker 6 (34:33):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
It's the physical mail of it all.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Whenever I get mail, it is junk mail and I
am angry that I've gotten it, or it's a bill.
You don't want those coupons. I don't want those coupons.
I don't be going to bow Jangles. I don't need
a Bogo thank you. But knowing that someone like sat down,
thought of you, got a stamp put.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
It in the mail is really nice.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
So I think I want to get back into the
practice of sending greeting cards.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Cool, and we will see you next week. Bye. Hi.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us
(35:17):
an email at Hello at on Theme dot show head
to on themet Show to check out the show notes
for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get
into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving
connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really
been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it
if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe
to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all,
Now time for the episode. On Theme is a production
(00:22):
of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
In the past couple of years, I've talked to a
bunch of people while reporting my book about black bookstores
pro to the people out early twenty twenty five. One
of those people is Brother y'all or Hokee S. Lover
the Third.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
My name is Brother Yao Hope Gus Glover the Third.
I'm chair of the Language, Literature and Cultural Studies program
at Buois State University. I've written two books of poetry,
and prior to working at the university, I was the
co owner of Caibu Books, one of the nation's largest
book stores.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
At one point, Brother y'all co owned the most successful
black bookstore chain in the country, Caribou Books, Kaboo Clothes,
and the Late Oats. We're on that in prose Now.
Brother y'ao is up at Bouoi State in Maryland and
the co author of Crazy as Hell, a refreshing, insightful,
and irreverend take on African American history. Crazy as Hell
(01:41):
just came out this week, and what struck me most
about it was how funny it was. As a student
of black history, I found it. It's often taught in
somber and CPA tones, and of course some of it
is somber, but some of it is funny, some of
it is poignant, and some of it makes you go,
I'll come on now, wait a damn it.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Today on our show, we're sharing the mic with archivists
from across the country and archivists who give us stories
that they're tired, they're poor, and they're blackfishing musicians. On
today's episode, we're passing the mic to authors and archivists
to hear their take on little known black history. I'm
Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode Archive Alive. Here's a
(02:23):
crazy as Hell story about a crazy as Hell rebel,
read by Yau.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Not much is known about Denmark Vessey. We do know
that he was a literate slave, like another of our
craziest hell heroes, not Turner, and we know that more
than one hundred years later, a white supremacist would slaughter
nine people at Vessy's church, mother, emmanuel A and me
and Charleston, South Carolina. You can look it up if
(02:50):
you want to to know more about the connection. Denmark
VESSI won the powerball on the South Carolina State lottery
in eighteen hundred, purchases freedom and began stockpiling weapons and
organizing folks for a slave vote. Of course we're kidding.
There wasn't a power ball back then, but the rest
is true. At the age of thirty two, Vessy purchased
(03:12):
his freedom with six hundred dollars after winning fifteen hundred
dollars in the lottery. Think about that. Black folks played
their numbers today, trying to win the lottery so they
can purchase their economic freedom. Vessey's real claim to fame
and what makes him crazy as hell, was his organizing
what many considered to be the largest plan for a
(03:33):
slave revolt in the history of the country. It is
said that as he planned a revolt, Vessey even sent
word to Haiti to begin to set up international relations.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And that's just one of mini profiles that Hoak and
his co author Via four Prince include in the book
Crazy as Hell is organized into different archetypes. Here's y'ao.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
This idea of framing who black people people are with
archetypes is really the way we get out of the oppositions.
That's at the core of like the way we view race.
Because a problem with black history is Black history is
usually white people are just so important in Black history
because of the oppositions, because of the binary. But the
(04:18):
solution is to create archetypes within black history so that
when black people are reading Black history, they're not simply
looking at themselves as opposed to whites. But now they
can say, I'm like the badass, I'm like the lawless,
I'm like the funky, I'm like these particular people in
(04:41):
Black history, And so that decenters this whole idea of
the importance of white people when we're telling a Black
history story.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, this was one of my favorite profiles and Crazy
as Hell, and I also think it shows like y'all fed,
like black people are still playing the lottery hoping to
get free. You know, it's not a different level, but
you know, I'll be looking at that little mega a
million sign and imagine in my life as a free woman.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And you're not the only one, okay, and you know
what else? What else? I would also take up arms
that part too. It is aspirational when you look up
at that sign and you're like that could be me.
But yes, as a means of economic freedom, it's not
just like we're doing this just for shits and gigs.
It's like we're actually trying to survive. And yes, it
(05:23):
is a hoarding of wealth, like it's far more wealth
than we would actually need to persist. I don't know.
I feel like in a way, yes it's more than
we need, but it could feel like an accumulation of
all of the wealth that we didn't have over time
and what we're owed. So technically it is what we
need to survive well.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
And in Denmark Vessi's case, I mean, I don't know
the translation in today's money, but he took that money
and was like, I'm talking piling weapons. I'm getting in
contact with Haiti and we're going to free more than
just me, which I just really respect, Like, you know,
you got to take folks with you, and I think
that's what people are really scared of, like when black
people not only get it for themselves but help other
(06:02):
people get it too.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah. I mean that money clearly is enough to go
beyond his own reach. And that was only half of
the money that he had. Yeah, I think lesson half,
lesson half.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, So amusing. Yeah. And you know, in addition to
speaking to people like brother Y'ao, I also found myself
in different archives across the country while researching parts of
the People. I was at the Shawanberg and Harlem, the
Auburn Avenue Research Library in Atlanta. I've worked with Afro
Charities at Baltimore, So I was all over the place
and I had this new found like appreciation and respect
(06:36):
for the archivist I encountered. So I found some funny
stuff in the archives. I found people's bills passed due
then running from their bill collectors, the law everybody. And
I was wondering, like, what other funny things that are
out there that these archivists who spend a lot of
time helping people find things, like people like me researching books,
are just doing their own research.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
What else is in there? So today we are passing
the mic onto archivists to hear some of those stories
more after the break.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Up.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Next, Britney Newberry, music and popular culture archivist at Georgia
State University Library, she highlights a pioneering incident of auditory blackface.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
It started with a voicemail, a voicemail that took me
back to nineteen forty four.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Hello, I have a podcast and I am going to
be featuring a song that Johnny Mercer had recorded called
I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Savannah born and raised lyricist Johnny Mercer was voted the
most popularly Young Colored Singer on the Radio from the
Abraham Lincoln Junior Club, an all black organization based in Chicago.
Johnny Mercer was soaring high. His radio program, Johnny Mercer's
Chesterfield Music Shop, was sponsored by Chesterfield Cigarettes. Johnny songs Jeepers,
(08:20):
Creepers and One for My Baby and One More for
the Road received acclaim and he was writing songs for
films and musicals. He would later go on to write
lyrics for Grammy and Oscar, winning songs like Moon River
and The Days of Wine and Roses. According to the
ad execs for this radio show, this award for most
(08:42):
Popular Young Colored Singer on the Radio, certainly must be
his signal honor. But there was a problem. Johnny Mercer
was white. There was no evidence indicating he gave the
award back due to the error or even wreck.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Did the mistake? And why is that?
Speaker 5 (09:02):
How did this happen? I go back to the voicemail.
As Georgia State's music and popular culture artists, I received
various requests from people looking for something in the archives.
Can I get a copy of the sheet music for
this song or that song? What information do you have
on the Atlanta Symphony Youth Orchestra. Can I see the
performance contracts you have from the Atlanta International Pop Festival?
(09:27):
And on and on, And this day was no different.
The caller was looking for information on the song I
Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City, sung by Johnny Mercer.
According to the researcher, the original recording had a unique
change to it that was not present in other recordings,
a distinct patter section in the middle of the song.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Salt Lake City is renowned for its beauty.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
The snowcapped Washsatch Mountains are nearby.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
After returning the call, the research question came down to this,
did Johnny Mercer sing like he was black, and is
the power section of this song evidence of that. I
put my archivist hat on and I went searching, pulling
boxes and searching folders, and I found the original correspondence
and postcard notifying him of winning the award. It's one sentence.
(10:26):
The Abraham Lincoln Junior Club of this city has this
date voted you the most popular young colored singer on
the radio. Harris Owens, secretary. The letter from the radio
show AD executives called it the award for most Popular
Singer on the Radio, leaving out colored. It even references
(10:49):
receiving a lot of mail congratulating the AD company. He
won the award in nineteen forty four, and the song
was released in nineteen thirty four. I gave this information
as well as copies of the lyrics, to the researcher
and let them decide. Johnny Mercer was born in nineteen
o nine to an upper class family. His family employed
(11:09):
black housemaids, who sparked his interests in jazz and blues.
As a child, he played with black friends and learned
to speak Geechee, the African Creole dialect of Savannah. As
a teenager, he listened to what were called Race records
by Bessie Smith, Louis Armstrong, and Maul Rainey at the
record stores in Savannah's Black business district. My job as
(11:32):
an archivist is not to form and give my opinions,
but to provide information so that researchers can make informed
decisions and interpretations. So I invite you to do the same.
Listen to I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City
and other songs by Mercer and decide for yourself. Was
Johnny Mercer part of the time honored American tradition of
(11:55):
stealing from black people or was he simply influenced by
the culture and people around him. What does it mean
for him to win an award not meant for a
white man? And what does it mean to sound black? Anyway?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I Lost My Sugar in Salt.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
So what did you think about mister Mercer? Mister Mercer
was giving contemporary times, Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
He said, I mean, I don't know if he was
ahead of his time, because you know, I wasn't you
know around back then.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Maybe they were just doing that. But I was like, oh,
you would have fit in Yes, you would fit twenty four. Yeah,
he was really trying hard to make himself seem like
he was somebody who he was not.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Okay, But here's the realty. And I spoke with Brittany
about this, and for the record, Brittany absolutely disagreed with
this take that I'm about to share. But I thought
that the reason that he accepted this award is because
he was passing. Okay, because, as she said that he
grew up in Savannah. Yeah, was around the Gulla Geechee folks.
(13:06):
We'll go to the black record store. She completely disagreed.
She said he was from a very prominent family. Everybody
knew his family, everybody knew they were white. But I'm like,
that's exactly what a prominent white family would do. The
mother would sneak off, have her a little black baby
and be happy that it could pass. And he knew.
And black people be clocking people that are passing. They
don't be saying too much. They let them live, but
(13:27):
they're like, I know you're black.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Okay. So two things. One, I looked at a picture
of him and I did wonder, not even gonna lie.
I was like, these features be black, Yes they could.
It was giving m a lota Okay. But my question
for you is if the theory is that he was passing.
Why would he want to out himself in a way
(13:49):
by accepting the award as being a colored person.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I think it's just like a little nod, a little wink,
like yeah you saw me, okay, And cause it could
be like ohl, like they think I'm black, they don't
know I'm white, but really they know the truth.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But Brittany said like that wasn't true.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
He was kind of one of those white people that
were like hung out with other black musicians, but only
because they were the quote unquote good blacks, and would
say stuff like that, like little problematic things like that
he was the most racist guy out there. But you
know he wasn't no civil rights activist or anything like that, right,
So that was my take on it. That's what I
thought might be going on. But yeah, there's so many
(14:28):
artists that be white and you think they're black.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
But is that on us or is said on them?
Is that them being performatively black or is that just
us not understanding that other people can like work within genres.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I don't know, because nobody listening to himinem go think
he's black even though he's in a black genre. Like
no one's going to listen to that and be like,
that's a black man, you know what I'm saying. So
you can be in the genre and still sound white.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I think that's tough because I mean, there are plenty
of times when I hear people and I don't know
what race they are, but you don't know what race
they are.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
But I think there is a difference between being like, oh,
I can't place this voice versus like, the way this
person talks is like a black person.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
They're affecting a black dialect in their language and black intonation. Yes,
and that's what mister Mercer was doing, I believe.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, yes, he is
an archetype or a prototype for all of the people
who are doing that today because there are so many
people in hip hop who do it. So I think
there is also an element that the first time you
hear somebody, unless they're like markedly white, you know what
I mean, Right, the first time you hear somebody performing rap,
(15:37):
if they have a voice, even if they aren't putting
on any sort of affects or dialects, you assume that
they're black. Because it is a genre that we created
and we are more prominent in it and more numerous.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
But Johnny Mercer's song wasn't a rap song. No, they
thought the Lincoln Group, the All Boys, all African American group,
thought he was black. But I do think that it's
probably like something that occurred more during that time, because
now we're like a very celebrity centric society, at least
here in the United States. So if you hear somebody,
(16:10):
you might go, you know, look them up, see who
their kids are, see who their parents are, like, try
to learn all these things about him. But if you
just like hear a guy on the radio, like in
the thirties, you're going to be like, okay, And that's
kind of it. So it might be easier to mistake
people's identities maybe race, maybe gender, and all all types
(16:32):
of things you get confused because you just hear them
on the radio and then go about your day.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So I'm imagining Mercer as a child listening to records
and loving them and not having a consciousness around race
except for probably all the racist things that he was
starting to be in viute with. But Brittany talked about
how he listened to race records, and I'm thinking about
how popular those were So I'm imagining Mercer listening to these,
falling in love with them, hearing them around the house,
(16:58):
having people, adults who were in his life, playing this,
and he starts to sing that way, the same way
as he heard other people sing. At some point I
would imagine he developed a consciousness around race. Is it
okay for him to continue to sing in that style
of music regardless of race? Or should he have pulled
(17:18):
back on trying to imitate those people that he might
have considered people who really influenced the his style of
singing as he got older and started putting out his
own records.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I mean it proved okay for him. He went on
to be very successful. That wasn't the only award he
was winning Chile. So other people liked it, and to
be fair, I haven't you know, went and listened to
his whole catalog. So maybe this is the only song
where he let his little black percentage pop out, you know,
so he could be founding like a regular white man
(17:51):
and all his other discography. I don't know, but yeah,
it was giving a precursor to Danny lay.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Meme reference for the online girlies. Is that a meme?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Oh, it's a white woman who's pretending to be a
black woman. A singer, maybe R and B pop, but
he was definitely laying the groundwork for the black fishing.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So to answer Brittany's question, what does it mean to
sound black anyway?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I think it's not something that you can really like
quantify with words. Yeah, do you think I sound black?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
No? Well, I feel like that's not the best.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
That's what was funny to me. Yeah. I don't think
it's something.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
That you can truly quantify. And that's why AI will
never replace humans.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I think we have a special lay on it as
black people though. Yeah, I think we know it better
than anybody else what a black person would say or
would sound like.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Right, So that's why I'm saying that group that heard
him and then gave him that award, I think they
were really picking up on something that was, you know,
underneath the surface.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
For our last story, we're getting into some no.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
No, I will go to jail behind this.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
That's after the break. Stay with us.
Speaker 6 (19:16):
My name is Tiffany Atwater Lee. I'm the head of
Research Services at the Atlanta University Center Robert W. Woochef
Libraries Archives Research Center. So I'm gonna tell a story
about the widow of my favorite archable character here at
the aec witch Off Library, and that is Miss Virginia Hope.
Mister Virginia Hope was an organizer and a community activist,
(19:38):
but she was also the wife of the first African
American president of a Morehouse and Atlanta University, doctor John Hope.
After his passing in nineteen thirty six, she did some
interesting things to ensure that the legacy of her husband
was maintained, and that included some controversy with the Atlanta
University Center or the Atlanta University President. So around nineteen
(20:01):
thirty seven, right after the passing of her husband, she
starts to write about getting access to these personal files
that her husband gave her keys to and said one
day you may need these. And so she's writing to
the president of the Board of Trustees, asking can I
get these files? I've gotten some files from his personal secretary,
(20:24):
but I know that there's more, like there has to
be more, and so the Board of Trustees president can't
really help, you know, he's the Board of Trustees president.
And so she decides after about a year and a
half of waiting and really not getting anywhere. She's just
going to take them. So she bypasses the president at
the time, and she goes to the administration building, the
(20:50):
President's office when she knows that both the president his
secretary as well as the former president in the interim
period is not in the city of Atlanta, and she
finds a custodian and she basically says, I left my
person there. Can you help me get in there? And
everybody knows Virginia Hope, she's the former first Lady, so
they let her in. Then they start to get a
(21:12):
little skeptical when they realize she has movers downstairs and
so what the supervisor of the custodian is like, she's
taking file cabinets. So he writes a telegram to the
president of the university, who's rufus Clement at the time,
and it's like Ms. Hope is stealing or not stilling.
He didn't say stealing, he said she's taking these files,
(21:34):
and so Clement stops his trip and hurries back to Atlanta,
and of course the files are missing, and Leginia is ghost.
He cannot find her. He is calling everywhere trying to
find out. Luckily, he finds what moving company she used
and goes to the moving company and says, you know,
(21:56):
I get that she paid for this storage unit, so
you can't give the materials to us, but can you
limit access so she can't get in there until we
find out essentially who owns these materials. So the movie
company is like, sure, we can do that. So in
this time, they're still trying to write to miss Hope
get to understand where she is, and she's not answering anything.
She eventually goes to the movers to try to sort
(22:18):
through these materials herself, and the movers are like, no,
you can't. You can't look at these files. So then
she calls Clement. In that discussion, which he talks about
in a correspondence to the President of the Board of Trustees,
he basically says that missus Hope said, I didn't want
to involve you in this because they had nothing to
(22:38):
do with you. It was before your presidency, and these
files belonged to us or to me and my family,
and so he has said, you know, we can go
through these files together and look through them and anything
that belongs to the university. We keep anything that you
need you have, and so she's like, no, no, I
will go to jail behind this and I will lift
(22:58):
everything out on the stand and for everyone to see it.
If AU doesn't want that, you all need to go
ahead and let me go through these materials myself. And
so he's like no, He's still trying to compromise, and
so at one point she says, I'll give you back
the files if you change all the locks and you're
the only person that can have the key, and so
he's like, why would I do that when the only
(23:20):
other people who would have access to this are the
people who already had access to this, including your husband's
former secretary. And so Virginia doesn't like that, so she
basically stops talking to them again. So he's writing to
the board of trustees and is like, we need to
get these files back, but we don't want to cause
(23:40):
a controversy because that could do a disservice to our
institution as well as the reputation of Mishope, And so
word starts to get out. There's even a telegram from
the Pittsburgh Courier. They write to Clymt and is like,
we heard y'all about the sue Virginia Hope, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
With that.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
So they're going through this process and then someone has
an idea stop Virginia's checks, don't let her get any
pension from her husband. And so when they stop the checks,
Virginia of course pops back up and so now she's
willing to talk and say, okay, how can we get
these files? And so, long story short, they decided to
(24:22):
go ahead and have it where Leginia Son, the former
secretary of her husband, as well as the President Rufus
Clement go through these records and divide up the materials.
Those that belong to doctor Hope goes back to his family,
those that belong to AU stay with AU. After all
of this, AU thinks that this was a victory. They're
(24:43):
able to maintain the relationship with Missus Hope, They're able
to not have any controversy, get out and get the
files back. However, Virginia doesn't feel that way, and so
she writes to a huge benefactor of AU and says, essentially,
I just lost the will to fight, and so I
just still feel like justice wasn't served and I don't
(25:05):
have all of my materials. And the reason why this
is such an important thing that I found was because
all of this stuff was inaccessible. This was in a
huge envelope marked with red stamps confidential, confidential, confidential. It
(25:27):
said not to be used or looked at unless under
the permission of the president of Atlanta University. And I
found this back in let's say, maybe twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen,
so you know, Atlanta University doesn't exist. It consolidated with
Clark College back in nineteen eighty eight. So I'm like,
what is this? So I'm looking through it, and essentially
(25:49):
what I believe I have discovered are files that eventually
become the John and Legenia Hope collection that is accessible
on microphone, that we have that not only their personal
relationships and personal papers, but also that of the institutions
in which and organizations in which they were active members in.
We also have materials related to the AU presidential records.
(26:12):
And so to me, what this really signifies is one
the ability for institutions to see humanity and understand this
woman essentially just wanted her husband's papers, but also we're
an organization. You can't just be still in our papers, right.
And then there's also the understanding of at that time,
this is nineteen thirty seven, nineteen thirty eight. Historically, black
(26:35):
institutions are already kind of given side eyes, right their
thought of as not being equipped or professional and things
like of that nature. So if this got out, this
really disturbed the reputation that they have been building. I mean,
a woman literally walked out with two file cabinets from
the President's office. But also I really like it because
(26:56):
it kind of just shows, you know, Legia Hope has
some position. Again, most importantly, it's providing access to these
stories because they're everyone. Everyone has a story, maybe not
where they stole papers from an administration building, but taking
matters in their own hand and getting what they want,
but also preserving the legacy of their loved ones for
(27:17):
those who come after us.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Okay, so put yourself in Mishope shoes. Okay, would you
be ready to go to jail about some papers by
your your late husband's papers?
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You know, I want to believe that I would. So
I don't know if me saying yes I would would
be the honest thing, Like I'm trying to imagine being
in that time as well in doing it. But I
want to say that I would you it. I feel
like I would. So you are still from the university.
I feel like I would, I'm my God, just because
I know how like important my family's papers that I
(27:54):
do have are to me now. I think because of
the perspective that I have now, like I have so
many of my mom's papers and she's not anymore. I
cherish those papers. So I'm like wondering the links that
I would go to to get them now, dealing with
administrations and official things. I don't know that to be truthful,
you know, whether I would do it, but because I
(28:16):
do care about having papers, and I like collect old things,
you know, I like to collect old things. I collect
old things of people that I don't even know, So
I feel like I might with asterisks maybe, well, what did.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You think the papers would be like in like more
I don't want to say, like safer hands, but maybe
more like, I don't know, secure hands with the university,
because the university is gonna outlive you, and you know,
maybe even outlive anybody in your family who would care
to keep up with these papers.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, I think that's a valid point. I think from
a sentimental perspective, not a logical one, though I might
want to have them in my.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Hands because I was asking Tiffany, I was like, why
was she going to work for these papers? Like I
don't think I'd be doing all that, you know, I
truly don't think I would be doing all that. I
was like, what was she doing? Like why was she
doing this? So you know, where did these academic streets
are that within these papers was evidence that he had
a mistress or two.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Between that story and the one you gave at the
beginning about Mercer passing you, you really want some extra
drama in these situations. You want a whole reality TV show.
It's humans. Like that's the thing with archives.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
You think like, oh, these people are you know, these
you know just historical figures. These are people and they
were into some drama, and you gotta think like this
upstanding lady, you know, well known in the community, well respected,
you talk about I'll go to jail about this. Maybe
why because you didn't want people know about them mistresses?
Speaker 1 (29:35):
So how did they already know about the mistresses? Though?
So if this is word on the street, she just
didn't want to have confirmation of them.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
No, we're in the academic streets. So people who like
research after the five right, you know, if your man
got a mistress because it was a mix of university
papers and personal papers.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's one idea. I think I have no idea if
that's true or not. But do you think that she
would still go to those same lengths just for that,
Like I don't know if we also know that the
was Luginia's character, like she wouldn't have wanted that out there,
that was something that was important to her. But do
you think that she would have gone to those lengths
to cover up personal misgivings like that, Like that would
(30:14):
have justified her doing that still?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I mean, yeah, I don't know her personality, but just
kind of thinking of like the time and like, you know,
they're high society people and it's just like embarrassing. So
I can definitely see this prim proper lady kind of
being like, you know, you're.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Still mourning your husband just died.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
You're like, I don't want everybody know like all his
business like that, and then you know, by the transit
of property my business.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I was imagining the whole Mission Impossible theme in my
head in the background of her going inside. I mean,
she didn't even do a that she was basically just
walked in and got them cabinet and said, can you
let me? It's social engineering. People do it all the time. Yeah,
just like ask for what you want.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And then they were like, oh no, she's breaking the
law now, but too scared to actually stop her.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
So hey, I left something in the room.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
You know something, But you don't play if like someone
is afraid to stop you and you're clearly doing something wrong,
you send it a telegram instead.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
She was on those people's heads.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But yeah, now that which your library at the AAC
has her husband's papers and her papers, so I'm sure
there's there's more tea and drama throughout those archives to
be discovered.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
But people can't access those papers, no they can.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah, sometimes when you go to the archives, you can
tell that no one has seen or like looked in
these boxes since they've been put in the boxes. Man
Tiffany even said she found the folder and it was
like wrapped up like top secret, like you know.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Do not read. It's just like I gotta look, I
gotta see what's going on. Blew the dust stuff got
the asbestis going. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, so there's so many things to still be discovered,
even if they're in archives, and you know, catalogs and everything,
and people just like don't look or like don't put
two and two together.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
So yeah, they're available. I liked this story because it
feels like it's kind of a microcosm of what you're
saying here, is that if you go through the archives,
you can find all these stories. And it's also about
a person's archive of their life, and we get to
see how Lucinia really cared for that archive, whether or
(32:09):
not it was for scandalous reasons, like she cared for
an archive and for like protecting the legacy of his
work and the things that he said in his own words.
So I really like this story for that perspective that
she gave us.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, like even if you don't agree with her methods,
even if she broke the law, Yeah you know, it
was passionate.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah it was. And sometimes passion trump's all. So the
ends always justifies the means. Okay, ask for forgiveness, not permission. No,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
So next time you find yourself in an old library
or museum, take a moment to slow down and really explore.
You never know what quirky, poignant, or downright bizarre stories
archives might hold. After all, as these authors and archivists
have shown us the most fascinating histories are often the
ones that have been tucked away patiently awaiting the right
person to uncover them and share them with the world.
(33:14):
And now it's time for role credits, the segment where
we give credit to a person, place, or thing that
we've encountered during the week eves. Who are what would
you like to give credit to?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I would like to give credit to the Black Archives
in Amsterdam. I was only able to visit them for
a little while when I was in Amsterdam recently, but
I got to look through the books that they had
a lot of them were in Dutch, so I could
not read them. But they had a nice exhibit up there,
(33:45):
and we're very friendly and yeah, they have loss of
cool stuff to see and I think if you go
with the group you can get a tour of the archives.
The archives are not available for research, but it's nice
to walk in. I think they do different exhibits there
from time to time and host lot of events that
are super interesting, so I like to give a shout
out to them.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I'd like to give credit to greeting cards, which is
something you often find in archives. I used to be
really into making greeting cards and giving them, and I
was like, that's a practice that I want to pick up,
not making them. Actually, I just want to pick up
giving greeting cards for like different occasions, you know, like
(34:26):
thinking of you, happy birthday.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Of course, just hey, we're pals, like let's keep in
touch type.
Speaker 6 (34:33):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
It's the physical mail of it all.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Whenever I get mail, it is junk mail and I
am angry that I've gotten it, or it's a bill.
You don't want those coupons. I don't want those coupons.
I don't be going to bow Jangles. I don't need
a Bogo thank you. But knowing that someone like sat down,
thought of you, got a stamp put.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
It in the mail is really nice.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
So I think I want to get back into the
practice of sending greeting cards.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Cool, and we will see you next week. Bye. Hi.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us
(35:17):
an email at Hello at on Theme dot show head
to on themet Show to check out the show notes
for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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