June 20, 2024 • 54 mins
We're done with the trauma for trauma's sake. But can we trust folks to make informed, nuanced stories about enslaved people? Cheyney McKnight of Not Your Momma's History is skeptical. Katie and Yves speak with her about the horror of slavery films in Hollywood, her favorite movie about an enslaved person, and the kinds of slavery movies she wants to see in the future.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get
into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving
connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really
been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it
if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe
to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all.
Now time for the episode on Theme is a production
(00:22):
of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. Before we start in
the show, a word of caution. Please be advised that
(00:43):
some sensitive topics come up in today's episode around slavery
and violence, so please take caution when listening to this episode.
Under ordinary circumstances, as a traveler, I should have been
glad to see the tavern, which was near the milestone,
but as the case stood with me, I deemed it
a dangerous place to pass, much less to stop at.
(01:06):
I was therefore passing it as quietly and as rapidly
as possible, when from the lot just opposite the house
or signpost, I heard a coarse, stern voice cry hello.
I turned my face to the left the direction from
which the voice came, and observed that it proceeded from
a man who was digging potatoes. I answered him politely,
(01:28):
when the following occurred, Who do you belong to? I
am free, sir. Have you got papers? No, sir, well
you must stop here. By this time he had got
astride the fence, making his way into the road. I said,
my business is onward, sir, and I do not wish
to stop. I will see then if you don't stop,
(01:49):
you black rascal. He was now in the middle of
the road, making after me in a brisk walk. I
saw that a crisis was at hand. I had no
weapons of any kind, not even a pocket knife. But
I asked myself, shall I surrender without a struggle? The
instinctive answer was no. What will you do? Continue to walk?
(02:09):
If he runs after you run, get him as far
from the house as you can, then turn suddenly and
smite him on the knee with a stone that will
render him at least unable to pursue you. This was
a desperate scheme, but I could think of no other,
and my habits as a blacksmith had given my eye
in hand such mechanical skill that I felt quite sure
that if I could only get a stone in my
(02:31):
hand and have time to wield it, I should not
miss his kneepand he began to breathe short. He was
evidently vexed because I did not halt, and I felt
more and more provoked at the idea of being thus
pursued by a man to whom I had not done
the least injury. I had just began to glance my
eye about for a stone to grasp when he made
(02:53):
a tiger like leap at me. This, of course, brought
us to running. At this moment he yelled out, Jake Shallster.
And at the next moment, the door of a small
house standing to the left was opened, and out jumped
a shoemaker, girded up in his leather apron. With his
knife in hand. He sprang forward and seized me by
the collar, while the other sees my arms behind. I
(03:15):
was now in the grasp of two men, either of
whom were larger body than myself, and one of whom
was armed with a dangerous weapon. I'm Katie and I'm Eves.
Today's episode do we need more slavery movies? That story
you just heard was one from the life of James W. C. Pennington.
His story is fascinating. James was born into slavery and
(03:38):
Maryland in eighteen oh seven. He escaped in eighteen twenty eight,
moved to the Northeast, became a minister, and eventually became
the first Black American to take classes at Yale University.
That riveting moment that you heard just now is from
his eighteen forty nine autobiography The Fugitive Blacksmith. James is
on his journey to freedom. He has just run into
(03:59):
a white man who recommends that he stay off the
road and gives him directions to a safe house. But
because James loses his way and he can't find a
good hiding place in the woods, he returns to the road,
and this gets him caught up. He passes a tavern
and runs into the man that we meet in the excerpt.
That man and a few others capture James. When they
(04:21):
ask James who he belongs to and where he came from,
James faces a moral dilemma. Should he lie, tell the truth,
or say nothing at all. Ultimately, the right choice is clear.
Those guys don't care about his life, so telling the
truth is not worth going back to the Louisiana cotton fields.
Of course, they don't believe him without other evidence, so
(04:44):
they take him to a couple of magistrates to verify
his status, but the magistrates are not at home. In
the end, James tells his captors a lie that's good
enough to assuage them for the time being. It probably
helps that he mentioned smallpox, and none of the folks
gathered want anything to do with the deadly contagious disease.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So did James get away?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
No, the saga continues. James's captors have spent their time
chasing him and walking him around the neighborhood. They absolutely
cannot let a negro be free if he's supposed to
be in captivity, so they plan to keep him around
for a few months while they sort out the situation.
So that day, James escapes while a boy who's about
(05:27):
nine years old is keeping watch over him. And it's
a tense scene. It's also obviously a critical point in
James's story, like it's really life or death. His narrative
has like all the hallmarks of a captivating drama. It's
full of conflict, spur of the moment decisions, and internal
moral dilemmas. And if you read the scene I was
(05:47):
just telling you about, you will definitely want to read more.
And this might be controversial to stay in this day
and age, but I do think slave narratives deserve more
screen time, hmm, say more so that I know of.
I don't think anyone has had beef with slavery documentaries
or nonfiction. There are an overwhelming number of slave narratives
(06:12):
told in academic and non academic books, but I think
on a mass American scale, people are typically engaging with
dramatized slavery films and that's where their opposition lies. People
are sick of fictional and fictionalized stories about slavery, and
the arguments are plentiful. Every time another slave movie comes out,
(06:35):
it's you know, trauma porn. Also, a lot of the
slavery movies are made in Hollywood, where most of the writers',
producers and executive producers are white, so you know, white
folks are grossly, doubly capitalizing off of our pain. And
some Black people are just tired of seeing representations of
black people who are struggling in media. They're tired of
(06:56):
seeing these sob stories with negative drama at every These
folks will often advocate for more black stories of triumph
and success or stories where black people are living lavish,
wealthy lives. They say things like we should be looking
forward and not backward.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And you don't agree with that.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Well, I think there are problems. There is that element
of positivity washing and this kind of desire to uplift
only exceptional Black people. And also time is a flat circle.
It doesn't really do us any favors to divorce ourselves
from our past and the people who are the reason
for our existence today if we are the descendants of slaves.
(07:39):
But I think a lot of the points that people
bring up against slavery movies are very valid. A lot
of them do have a lot of trauma in them
that are just there for trauma's sake, and a lot
of them are financial endeavors. They really don't care about
telling those stories. Well. But I think that even though
slavery movies have their pain points, we need more of them.
(08:02):
There are some slavery movies that have gratuitous violence to
make the institution of slavery seem sufficiently horrible to skeptical
or ignorant white folks. Often in these kinds of cases,
the storytelling really centers white audiences. But the reality is
that we are under educated in the United States. There
(08:23):
are people of all races who don't know much about
the realities of black history, let alone slavery history, and yes,
that includes black people. We have so much more to
learn about our history, and that info can become more
palatable for people when it's presented in dramatized accounts. For
US Black Americans, I think it can be really easy
(08:45):
for us not to place emphasis on the history of
enslavement and our links to it, because public school curriculums
don't emphasize it, and if it's importance isn't otherwise impressed
upon us, then it's easy to take for granted. Many
of us who had enslaved ancestors don't know their specific histories,
and I know that many of us aren't cracking open
(09:07):
an old slave autobiography and settling into our favorite reading
spot on a Sunday morning. And on top of all
of that, the history of enslaved people has been purposely
buried and erased. Enslaved people were people, though I'd like
to know their stories. I want to know how they lived,
what they smelled when they woke up in the morning,
(09:29):
how it felt for them to see the sun shining
through windows and what their favorite meals were to cook.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, I empathize with people who say they're tired of
slavery movies because of the ones we've been given. There
is a lot of violence, and it does seem like
it's there just to traumatize us, because that's what they
do oftentimes. What I want to see. I think it
would be really cool to see more depictions of like
(09:55):
the Reconstruction era, because like we'll see depictions of like
you know, the runaways, but like most people who are
enslaver are running away, but it was like for that
brief eight years during the Reconstruction era, like right after
slavery was ended, there was a lot of stuff going
good for black people. It didn't last, but I would
like to see kind of like the end of slavery,
(10:17):
maybe the Confederate army tried to get to fight for them,
you know, turning on the people in the back of
the line and shooting the Confederate soldiers and running over
to the un inside and seeing how their life happened
during the Reconstruction era. That's what I would like to see,
And like you said, like the more nuanced stories that
shows what their lives were like what their personalities were,
(10:38):
like their relationships they had with each other, and not
just the brutality.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
So I think about it this way sometimes that I
can imagine if people had never been kidnapped from the
African continent and brought to the Caribbean and the shores
of the Americas, Like, would we still be trying to
erase hundreds of years worth of those stories. All of
those stories are compelling. There's mystery, there's intrigue. All of
(11:06):
these people were individuals. They had cool skills, they had
dangerous plans, and they executed them, and they fell in
love and they deceived their loved ones. All of that
is very interesting, And I just want to think about
how we can acknowledge how we are hurt by these
kinds of stories and all that trauma that you were
talking about, and all of the slavery movies that we
(11:28):
do have. It's very real, it's very embodied. They are
all valid reactions. I am there right there with you,
And I also want to ask for more rich, complex
stories about slaves. Now am I asking for a lot?
Is the question? Can we really get that?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
In a way, it feels a little counter productive to
ask for fewer slavery movies. We don't want to see
more stories about black trauma. And I get that, I
don't want to see that either, but the call is
usually in all out moratorium on these movies, like none
at all, no more cut them. And that feels like,
I don't know, like white people won again, Like they
(12:10):
already have erased our history textbooks in the non fiction space,
so letting them erase this long period of our history
and wiping out the names and the stories and families
off the face of the earth again, it's like, I
don't know, it feels wrong. And like think about Roots,
the nineteen seventy six novel by Alex Haley. It was
(12:33):
a bestseller and it was soon turned into a couple
of TV series and it had a real impact, Like
people was gathered around that TV to watch The Roots
when it came out, and it really got people of
all races interested in researching their family history, but you know,
particularly black people. A lot of genealogical groups were made
during that time because they wanted to learn more about
(12:56):
their ancestors who came from Africa and lived on the
plantations in the United States.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, Roots was maybe the most prominent example of a
fictional slave narrative that was written by a black person
in the last half century. I mean, Kunta Kitte was
a household name. I don't know if it still is
for the kids today, but from this generation standpoint, I
feel like I can confidently say that, and there weren't
(13:22):
other shows like it on television at the time. Since Roots, though,
we have gotten a fair amount of major Hollywood films
about slavery. Are they all good though? No, absolutely not. Unfortunately,
Hollywood prioritizes money and stories that'll get a lot of
butts in seats. Also, movies can only be so long.
(13:45):
They have to filter through production company standards, audience testing,
the rating system, all of those kinds of things, and
Hollywood has a tendency to flatten stories that could be
really intricate and interesting because of people's in Hollywood and
because of all of these other moles that they have
to fit into. I know that there are independent creators
(14:07):
making films about slavery who really lack a larger platform,
but they tell beautiful stories. You know, it's always the
case that artists outside the mainstream they take risks and
they step freely. But you know, Hollywood does have a
white footprint. So speaking of Hollywood, it makes me think
of Antebellum. So I love Janelle Monnet, but I did
(14:27):
not love Antebellum, which came out in twenty and twenty
and it was written and directed by a black filmmaker
named Gerard Bush and a white filmmaker named Christopher Wrenz.
Now that movie got a lot of heat and hate
when it came out, and I'm not interested in just
piling on to that, but I do think it's worthwhile
to mention because it illustrates some of the pitfalls of
(14:47):
movies that include enslaved people. Well, in this case, people
are not really enslaved. But more on that soon. Here's
a quick summary of the film. Antebellum. Starts on a plantation,
are cruel and the enslaved people are brutally harmed and killed.
Monette plays Eden, a slave on the plantation, but has
(15:08):
revealed that in modern times, Money is doctor of Veronica Henley,
a successful sociologist and doctor. And while she's on book tour,
she's drugged and kidnapped, and she wakes up on the plantation,
which is actually not a plantation. It turns out to
be a civil war reenactment park, Monette kills the people
running the park and she escapes. Now, Antebellum isn't exactly
(15:32):
a slavery movie. It's horror and is not trying to
depict history accurately, but it does use the cruelty of
the history of slavery to try keyword there to get
its point across. So it falls victim to some of
the tropes that are in slavery movies. The characters are flat,
including Moname's. The concept of the soul militant savior is
(15:53):
also at play here because Monete's rescue effort is virtually
solo as her collaborators dieviolence is gratuitous and unnecessary, and
there's one woman who we barely get to know who
suffers horrendous trauma before she dies by suicide. It seems
like the film's creators like really just want to see
black women suffer. The violence against black people in this
(16:14):
film is definitely not earned. The white folks are seemingly
kidnapping the black folks because they want America to go
back to the way it was. It seems like the
creator's intent is to oppose this white supremacist sentiment, but
the vision isn't executed well, and in the end, it
gives what so many actual historical slavery movies give trauma
(16:35):
for the sake of trauma. I will say that some
people found the premise unbelievable, and that is fair, but
I don't think it's a completely bad heightened interpretation of
what's possible in real life, because it's not unbelievable that
like a white supremacist militia group would drug, kidnap whole
(16:57):
hostage and torture black people. It just wouldn't be in
something like a reenactment part that anyone can access and
leave at any time, Like this is not an exact
parallel to reality, but I do think there are parts
of it that could be reality.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Antabellum gave like they thought they were really being provocative,
you know, like in that Kanye West sounds like it's provocative.
It gets the people going, like they thought like, oh,
people are going to be like whoa and like get
all these awards, but it just kind of like huh,
It's like this is what cinema is.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And sadly, Antebellum is not an example of how to
make a good movie about enslaved people. We need fewer
slavery movies that spoonfeed audiences, discussed shock and sympathy. But
I have to say that in general, feeling tired of
slavery narratives period feels like a bit of a premature reaction.
And I'm just saying that because slavery movies are actually
(17:57):
kind of few and far between.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, there really aren't that many that got major attention.
There was Django and chand in twenty twelve, Twelve Years
of Slave in twenty thirteen, Birth of a Nation in
twenty sixteen, Harriet in twenty nineteen, Alice in twenty twenty two,
and Emancipation also in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
The reality is, the film industry isn't flooded with slave movies,
so we're not really inundated with slavery related trauma porn.
It just seems that way because most of the movies
that we do get revel way too long in the
gore and the immorality of the whites. They don't spend
much time in the interior worlds of the black people.
(18:38):
It's like this horrible atrocity is just happening to black people.
People are not tired because they are literally too many
slave movies. They're tired because when they are released, they
do enslaved people's stories no justice. There are literally thousands
of stories about enslaved people that are compelling enough to
(19:01):
be depicted on screen, and they haven't been. Now, I
don't think that every person should just love watching slavery films.
That would be wild of me to say. Of course,
that can still be a matter of personal preference. Even
having better slavery movies might not convince you to turn
one on, and that's totally fine. But if we are
(19:22):
going to ask for more of them, then we got
to be specific. If we're going to have more, we
need more well done, meaningful movies about slavery that are
skillfully crafted.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
They shouldn't center white heroes.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
They shouldn't cheaply use the horror and trauma that enslaved
people endure it to propel the story forward.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
They shouldn't cater to white audience looking to be absolved
of their sins.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
They should be sensitive to the humanity of enslaved people
because they were humans. They ate, they crafted, they danced.
We have so many untapped stories about slavery, and as
far as I know, there is no movie about James W. C. Pennington.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So somebody in your long hand make that and make it well.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yes, but y'all, I feel like we have to prove
to you that we're not the only ones who might
want more slavery movies. We're not completely yelling into the void. Okay.
We talked to Cheney McKnight of Not Your Mama's History
more after the break. Hi, Cheney, I'm Eve so yeah,
(20:37):
excited to have you here today too. We'll get into
it then. So just tell us your name and then
however you like to introduce yourself.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
My name is Cheney McKnight. I own a company called
Not Your Mama's History, and we have a YouTube channel.
We also go to sites, primarily sites of the enslavement
and help those sites to tell stories of black folks,
whether they were enslaved or free through the eighteenth and
(21:07):
nineteenth century. And on my social medias, I just try
and tell as many stories about black folks today and
in the past, and also try to look forward into
the future and bring us all into a better future.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So what inspired you to start that work?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Growing up in Georgia in Atlanta, we would go to
well at school, we would go to trips to plantations,
and especially when I went to a majority white school,
I was just looking around, like the interpretations they were
doing and the stories they were telling. I was like,
this really looks like and sounds like bullshit. So even
(21:51):
as a young child, I was like I got a question.
Like whenever the docin was like do you have a question,
I was the first person to raise my hand and say,
I have a lot of questions. And I was very
fortunate that I was raised by people who constantly took
me to exhibits on black folks throughout history.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So I know you're also into all these historical things
that you do in real life, but also in the
fictional world. I know that you're a film fan and
that you also watch a lot of historical films, and
some of those historical films are films about slavery and
about enslaved people. So what is your take on whether
(22:34):
we do not need more slavery films or whether we do.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Oh man, this is such a contentious topic, and for
a very good reason. I think if we look at
the history of movies of enslavement, we've gone through phases
where when you're looking at roots, people are trying to
show the whole nitty gritty truth about slavery. Going further back,
(23:07):
it's more like mental shows. So if you're looking at
Gone with a Win and Mammy's character, it's a caricature
and she is. Her character was not modeled often of
an actual enslaved person, so they weren't looking at primary documents.
(23:27):
They may have looked at some real women as far
as her face, but they were actually looking at mental
shows to build her character out. And then of course
coming into the future through Roots. I think the Roots period,
I understand where we were going because we're coming from
(23:50):
the other side, where they're showing it is lifels so
happy to be slaves and they're just having a good
old time. And then we're going all the way to
the extreme where every enslane person, on every second of
the day is being whipped. And yes, there was some
diversity in the experiences of these enslaved people, but there
(24:15):
are these very two extremes that I find both of
them stripped the humanity from people. Especially when we're coming
up into Amistad. There was a lot of strong storytelling,
but at the same time we missed a lot of
(24:36):
the humanity. And I think also who were these films
created for? Sorry, and I just the frustration for some
people is that there isn't this diversity of narratives and
(24:59):
a true humanity of these people shown in movies about enslavement.
And I look at Joker. You're able to humanize this
man who is pretty abhorrent, he's going through mental crisises.
(25:19):
But they're able to show a wide range of emotion
and humanity. And yet we are unable to do that
with enslaved persons who are actual, real people. And we
do have quite a bit of documentation about these people.
(25:40):
So I don't I would say, I don't want to
see another enslaved movie about enslavement in this country until
we see a full, well thought out story. One of
the things that I think about a lot when I'm
on a sight of enslavement, when I'm either sleeping at
(26:03):
a slave dwelling or in that place where enslave persons
were living. Sometimes when I'm laying in bed, I think about,
what are those conversations that they were having with their
loved one about their days while they're laid side by side.
What are those moments in the early morning when you're
(26:27):
you got to get out of bed and you like
and the babies crying and y'all arguing about who's gonna
pick up the baby. So things like that that I
really I'm not seeing brought in. And then also just
what about a for example, a love story of that
(26:50):
is not centered around enslavers. So I would love to
see a movie about enslaved persons that we don't see
and in slaver at all, but still showing the consequences
of living life as property, but not centering it on
that trauma, centering it on their experiences, their personality, their
(27:16):
interactions with one another, the relationships they build internally within
slave community. Those are some of the things that I'm
hoping to see, But I'm not sure if I trust
most media to do it correctly. So I'm not really
(27:37):
pushing people because I'm not trying to get my feelings hurt.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Uh huh, I feel you. Yeah. That was gonna be
my question to whether you think that would even be
possible when we know how Hollywood treats so many of
its other films in general, I.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Do not believe that if it is coming from Hollywood
or any of these large production houses, Absolutely not, don't.
I don't want to see it because it is not
for It is not for the ancestors. It is not
to tell the stories of the ancestors, It is not
(28:18):
to support the descendants. This is either trauma porn for
white folks or kind of a sorry excuse of like
white saviorism. So I don't think it's possible in the
way that our entertainment industry is structured now. However, I
(28:43):
am hopeful and prayerful that we will have independent companies
and funders who will come forward and give storytellers a chance,
writers who want to collabse break with historians like myself
and other historians. It doesn't have to be me. There's
(29:04):
wonderful historians out there and not compromise on telling these
stories appropriately.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
So it sounds like of all the slave movies that
have been put out, you're not rocking with any of them.
Are there any are the ones put out by Hollywood?
Are there any movies or the fictional depictions of slavery
that you think did a good job?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Oh? I would say the closest would come Miss Jane Pittman.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Okay, I mean.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
It has those issues, but it really goes through her life,
and I just I think that they did a very
decent job of showing her full humanity as a person.
So it follows the life of an enslaved woman who
(29:59):
was born enslaved through her entire life from the nineteenth
century to her challenging Jim Crow laws by drinking out
of a of a white only drinking fountain. So I
(30:25):
mean it spans a whole a whole century, and so
I think that it really shows kind of the interactions,
the internal interactions within black community over over decades.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So did you see one with Kiki Palmer?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Oh, Alice?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I think Alice.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I did not see Alice. Unfortunately it wasn't said.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
It was in like the seventies, so it was like
a they were never told that slavery ended. So like
the people on that plantation have been enslaves until she escaped.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Which is this real, real life story. Yeah, I will definitely.
I have not seen that yet. I have seen most
of everything I've seen the one with Janelle.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Monet ante Bellum, which I don't know if you saw
my saw first of all, you've tore it down in
a very meticulous way.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Okay, give us some of it.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Yeah, oh, ante Bellum. So the first thing first, it
was very interesting because from the jump, I was like,
this looks like a reenactment, because usually when Hollywood does
nineteenth century after I would say after the eighties, there's
(31:58):
at least proper undergarments, like the bell shape of the dresses.
Just just they were using like tiki torches or the
equivalent of tiki torches in the background, more modern stuff.
But it looked like the stuff that reenactors choose to
(32:21):
that feels old timy, and I was like, huh, which
actually fit very well. I think that's one thing they
did very well. It looked like modern people created a reenactment.
And then that's where it all went wrong.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
And I guess that aligns with the twist of the movie.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yes it does. So the twist is that yes, she
is this. They aren't actually enslaved back in the day.
At first, I thought it would be more like a
Kendrit so Octavia's Kendred. I know that lot of people
compared the two storylines, but it's not the same. One
(33:05):
is all set in the here and now, there's no
science fiction. The other one is very much steeped in
fiction and science fiction, jumping back and forth in time.
I see where they were trying to go, but it
was just why why it was just trauma for the
(33:28):
sake of trauma. And I really it really discussed me
when people use my ancestors just for the sake of
trauma and just the sake of horror.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, it also felt in that movie like they used
the entire institution of slavery as a plot point, like
they really didn't need to go back to the times
where people were enslaved to make this point that like
there are white supremacists and I don't want you to
live on this earth anymore. And that meant that because
they included slavery, it still fell victim to so many
(34:06):
of the problems that other movies that are actually about
slavery have. So yeah, lots of problems and trauma, lots
of trauma, And I can see with movies like that
and others why you wouldn't trust them. How can more
(34:34):
of that idea of the every day and the mundane
and community efforts, all those kinds of things, How can
more of those be included in slavery films? And what
do you think those should or could look like?
Speaker 3 (34:56):
I think from the jump there has got to be
a lot of debunking. I cannot tell you how many
black folks have argued with me about the structure of
the enslaved community. This idea that light skinned people were
(35:19):
in the house and they only worked in the house,
and dark skinned people were in the field and they
only worked in the field. That just was not the
case for in every situation, or even the majority of situations.
We get a lot of that from Thomas Jefferson from
(35:40):
Monticello because he structured his enslaved persons the haves and
the have nots. So he put up those barriers very
strictly at Monticello, and of course there's a lot of
interviews of people from Monticello, so that's kind of the
(36:00):
view that we get. Also, a lot of what we
know about enslaved communities comes from menstrreal shows. We don't
even realize how integrated our minteal shows are still in
in our modern day entertainment, even outside of movies about enslavement.
(36:21):
So when we get to looking at community represented within
movies of enslavement, the first steps would be acclimating the
audience to really understanding the reality of these communities. And
that's a vast diversity within the Black community so people
(36:44):
who worked in the house would not have only worked
in the house because that's a waste of resources. People
who worked in the field would have had interactions with
people in the house because those are their family members
and their community members. I would show more events that
(37:06):
happened through the year, more daily interactions, so when you
are going to eat, there is always someone who will
be like, I have extra. So when you're reading the WPA,
I'm sorry, the WPA narratives, you see a lot of
(37:29):
that where there are interactions between enslave persons, where people
have more of I don't know greens and another person
went hunting, and there isn't this running tab of you
owe me this or you owe that. You would have
just seen people dropping off greens or dropping off a
(37:53):
hair like a rabbit or something dropping off even gator
where wherever you are to help support one another. When
you start looking at simple things that have been portrayed
as the happy negro singing in the field, that was
(38:17):
a community effort to protect one another. So first and foremost,
if you keep pace the young folks who you know,
they can outpace all of us. But if they do that,
then the rest of us will never be able to
keep up. It'll make and then someone will get punished.
(38:40):
But if you can keep a pace where the slower
people can move up and the people, the young folks
who are you know out there, and then bring everybody
into about the middle. That is what the songs are
about keeping time. Also the love that the adults had
for the children when they teach them the songs. This
(39:04):
is an act of love because children started working at
four and expected to independently work. How many of us
have seen a four year old that can sit down
and actually do something like polish silver or make nails.
(39:25):
The nailery at Mount Vernon kids as young as six
years old. So you teach them songs to keep them
on task. And maybe if the adult who is monitoring
them can't keep their eyes on them, but you can
call out and you can hear the song continue going,
(39:45):
so you can hear that they're still at their task,
because if they aren't on task, we know what that
will mean. So there are little things within the daily
life of enslaved persons that have been it's represented for years.
That is an act of community love and mediation for
(40:08):
one another. Also, looking at the structure of enslaved communities.
Pastors and preachers were considered very dangerous because they had
a lot of power within enslaved communities. Also, African born folks,
especially if they were healers, they were considered to be
(40:32):
powerful and they held special places within Black communities. Elders
held special places within Black communities. A lot of times,
when we see movies where they look at the internal
structure of the enslave community, they really put the perceptions
(40:57):
of the enslavers and how they perceive the enslaved community
and their leadership. So if you look at some movies,
it is the black overseers that are considered to be
in charge or the master's man, the butler, or the housekeeper,
and that's just not the case. Black folks appointed their
(41:20):
own leadership. And if whenever I see and I'm looking
at journals or papers and if an enslaver here's about
an issue that's going on within the enslaved community, there
is a serious breakdown within the community, that means that
(41:44):
through a lot of work, they could not resolve it.
And so that is so rare. When I see really
serious incidents make it to the enslaver's ears. That means
that something's going within the community.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Clearly, everything you just said, I heard conflict, you know,
I heard love, I heard care, I heard organization. I mean,
all of these things are parts of storytelling. So it's
not like anybody can sit there and say, well, they're
not interesting. Yes they are. They're people's lives. So I
think I'm glad that you say it so much because
(42:23):
it helps people understand who may not be so familiar
with the history of slavery. I mean, I would guess
most people aren't like you are because you study it
and you work on these things. I think it really
helps break down just how many more stories we need
to hear. And that also, I think you made it
(42:45):
clear that just like these films that we're seeing is
just a continuation, a perpetuation of the idea that, like
these histories are being written by our oppressors. Like, just
how much we need to pay attention to the people
who are creating these works that we are consuming, and
that you know, if we're cognizant of that, then we
(43:05):
can also understand that there are creators who can hold
these things with more sensitivity and care. So are there
any specific enslaved people whose stories you like? To see
and created by the made by the right creators of
course told well, like let's assume that they know what
they're doing. They are masterful at visual storytelling. They treat
(43:32):
the story really well. All of that. Let's assume all
of that is the case. Is there any person's story
you like to see on screen?
Speaker 3 (43:42):
There is one particular person that I have wanted to
hear see the story played out on video on film,
and that is Hercules Posey, chef Hercules Posey. He was
enslaved by George Washington, and the foremost historian on Hercules
(44:05):
Posy is Ramine Genish Tramp and she has made it
her life's work to telling his story. There have been
people who have taken advantage of that and misrepresented her
work and Hercules Posy. So for me, I would love
(44:31):
to see his full story played out. Because he was
a chef, he was also considered to be a dandy.
But also no matter how well he was treated, still,
oh that's a good question. So someone who dresses very
(44:55):
well and carries themselves very posh. Well, so he always
had his hair on point, he always had his clothing
on point. And we know that he was married, he
had children, and he may have trained his son in
(45:18):
his craft as well. His story spans from Virginia to
New York, through Pennsylvania through the presidency, and it also
shows what I like to continually point out to people
that we have got to stop describing slavery based off
(45:44):
of the conditions, because for every one experience that enslaved
persons had, I can point to a poor white person
that had a similar experience. However, the horror of slavery
is really rooted in the fact that it is hereditary
(46:08):
chattel slavery, that they will be enslaved, their children will
be enslaved, their grandchildren will be enslaved, their great grandchildren
will be enslaved, and so on and so forth, with
no change. And so whether someone is wearing the finest
clothing at one moment, George Washington showed him at the
(46:28):
next moment, I could have you in rags, breaking rocks.
So his life really spans and he also was a
freedom seeker. He grabbed his own freedom, and so I
love his story and I think, if ever I had
a wish, I would love to see that. I would
(46:51):
love to see Hercules posey. I would love to see
the actual historians brought in primarily were me Ganishram, who
dedicated her life to his story. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I just can only imagine the things he heard being
George Washington's chef.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
Oh yeah, on a judge, on a judge as well,
because she she literally wore silk gowns, never was swept,
laid in bed, and when she reached for her freedom
and sought her freedom along with her children, and someone
came to her when she was living in squalor and
(47:35):
they were like, the Washington's will take you back, she
was like, nah, I'm good, I'm good here in poverty.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
So it really shows how precious freedom is.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Right no matter like you said, the condition, because at
the end of the day, you are considered someone's property,
whether you're in a silk robe or not.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Right, and they love, they love. So one of the
interesting things about North American slavery that's different from the
West Indies. I find in the West Indies they relied
on share brutality to keep people in line, and I
think it creates a different mentality because you have absolutely
(48:22):
nothing to lose. And also they were outnumbered in the
West Indies. In North America, it's really a mind game,
the mental manipulation that slavery in America. It really is
(48:43):
very fascinating and I like to see that more explicitly
explored on film, because you can even see the mental
mind games today, for example, when people as we're good
to you, aren't we mind games?
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Mind game, master manipulator?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Do you think that these kind of explorations would be
more suited to other mediums versus films because we got
we get films mostly, But what do you think about
maybe maybe TV being more suited to it, or podcast
or what other kinds of mediums?
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Again? I think yes, podcasts, especially when it is really
directed by specific people who have the mental fortitude to
say fuck you to money, to people who want to
change the narrative it is. I assure you, it's really
(49:53):
hard to say no to a lot of zero's. It
was very hard. But I think it takes someone who
is someone who has no self resonation or someone who's
just singularly focused on telling these stories.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
So you're saying there's some hope, I think so, I'm
just putting some stuff out into the universe.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
I really hope that people will want to tell our stories.
I am not ashamed of being a descendant of enslaved persons.
These are some of the strongest people I have ever met,
because I've met them through their narratives, through the things
that they've left, and I just can't help but want
to introduce the world to them. Also, the majority of
(50:44):
black folks in this country before the mid nineteenth century
were enslaved, and is so frustrating when people say, why
don't you tell this free person's story or this one
in a million persons story instead of slight stories about slavery.
And I can't help but be pissed off and annoyed
(51:07):
that people are dismissing the majority of my ancestors because
it makes them feel uncomfortable. And people are just lazy
in their storytelling. Tell our stories correctly and tell them fully,
That's all I ask. If they can tell the Joker
(51:28):
as a full human being, they can tell hercules story.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
So now it's time for role credits, the segment where
we give credit to a person, place, or thing that
we encountered during the week. And we have our guests
Shamey joining us. But first, Eves, who are what would
you like to give credit to?
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Today? I want to give credit to tab managers. I
know that seems very petty, but I often have a
lot of tabs open, so I shouldn't because they create
a lot of clutter in my brain space. But that's
how I got to operate sometimes. So TAP managers have
(52:08):
been helpful to me so particularly this week, and that's
what I want to give credit to today.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
How about you, Cheney.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
I want to give credit to Jerome Outlar. He's my
business partner and he's just a positive for us that
is always keeping me on track. Also when I possibly
want to strangle people, he has saved a few lives.
I have not tried to murder anyone.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
I mean, by the way you describe some of the
situations you're in because of your work, it seems like
it could test a lot of things. So it's understandable.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
Jerome got my back.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Got out to Jerome.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Shout out to Jerome. What about you, Katie.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
I'd like to give credit to librarians. I spent a
lot of time in libraries, and when you find a
good librarian, like you can know a library back and forth,
but sometimes you just have a question that you can't
figure out unless you're the librarian. And it's so funny,
like you'll take so long trying to figure it out
and then you just ask library and they're like, oh yeah,
here's the answer, and you're like, wow, I love you.
(53:23):
So I had that I had that happened to me
this week, and so I want to give credit to librarians.
So where can folks find you online?
Speaker 3 (53:34):
Not Your Mama's History and Mama spelled m m as.
You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook. I'm constantly
doing things around the country, so you can also find
me on that Your Mama's History dot com. So to
kind of figure out where I'll be in the upcoming
(53:57):
weeks months.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Yere perfect. Thank you so much for joining us, Thank you,
Thank You.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us
an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head
to on Theme dot Show to check out the show
(54:28):
notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows,
Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get
into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving
connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really
been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it
if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe
to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all.
Now time for the episode on Theme is a production
(00:22):
of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. Before we start in
the show, a word of caution. Please be advised that
(00:43):
some sensitive topics come up in today's episode around slavery
and violence, so please take caution when listening to this episode.
Under ordinary circumstances, as a traveler, I should have been
glad to see the tavern, which was near the milestone,
but as the case stood with me, I deemed it
a dangerous place to pass, much less to stop at.
(01:06):
I was therefore passing it as quietly and as rapidly
as possible, when from the lot just opposite the house
or signpost, I heard a coarse, stern voice cry hello.
I turned my face to the left the direction from
which the voice came, and observed that it proceeded from
a man who was digging potatoes. I answered him politely,
(01:28):
when the following occurred, Who do you belong to? I
am free, sir. Have you got papers? No, sir, well
you must stop here. By this time he had got
astride the fence, making his way into the road. I said,
my business is onward, sir, and I do not wish
to stop. I will see then if you don't stop,
(01:49):
you black rascal. He was now in the middle of
the road, making after me in a brisk walk. I
saw that a crisis was at hand. I had no
weapons of any kind, not even a pocket knife. But
I asked myself, shall I surrender without a struggle? The
instinctive answer was no. What will you do? Continue to walk?
(02:09):
If he runs after you run, get him as far
from the house as you can, then turn suddenly and
smite him on the knee with a stone that will
render him at least unable to pursue you. This was
a desperate scheme, but I could think of no other,
and my habits as a blacksmith had given my eye
in hand such mechanical skill that I felt quite sure
that if I could only get a stone in my
(02:31):
hand and have time to wield it, I should not
miss his kneepand he began to breathe short. He was
evidently vexed because I did not halt, and I felt
more and more provoked at the idea of being thus
pursued by a man to whom I had not done
the least injury. I had just began to glance my
eye about for a stone to grasp when he made
(02:53):
a tiger like leap at me. This, of course, brought
us to running. At this moment he yelled out, Jake Shallster.
And at the next moment, the door of a small
house standing to the left was opened, and out jumped
a shoemaker, girded up in his leather apron. With his
knife in hand. He sprang forward and seized me by
the collar, while the other sees my arms behind. I
(03:15):
was now in the grasp of two men, either of
whom were larger body than myself, and one of whom
was armed with a dangerous weapon. I'm Katie and I'm Eves.
Today's episode do we need more slavery movies? That story
you just heard was one from the life of James W. C. Pennington.
His story is fascinating. James was born into slavery and
(03:38):
Maryland in eighteen oh seven. He escaped in eighteen twenty eight,
moved to the Northeast, became a minister, and eventually became
the first Black American to take classes at Yale University.
That riveting moment that you heard just now is from
his eighteen forty nine autobiography The Fugitive Blacksmith. James is
on his journey to freedom. He has just run into
(03:59):
a white man who recommends that he stay off the
road and gives him directions to a safe house. But
because James loses his way and he can't find a
good hiding place in the woods, he returns to the road,
and this gets him caught up. He passes a tavern
and runs into the man that we meet in the excerpt.
That man and a few others capture James. When they
(04:21):
ask James who he belongs to and where he came from,
James faces a moral dilemma. Should he lie, tell the truth,
or say nothing at all. Ultimately, the right choice is clear.
Those guys don't care about his life, so telling the
truth is not worth going back to the Louisiana cotton fields.
Of course, they don't believe him without other evidence, so
(04:44):
they take him to a couple of magistrates to verify
his status, but the magistrates are not at home. In
the end, James tells his captors a lie that's good
enough to assuage them for the time being. It probably
helps that he mentioned smallpox, and none of the folks
gathered want anything to do with the deadly contagious disease.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So did James get away?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
No, the saga continues. James's captors have spent their time
chasing him and walking him around the neighborhood. They absolutely
cannot let a negro be free if he's supposed to
be in captivity, so they plan to keep him around
for a few months while they sort out the situation.
So that day, James escapes while a boy who's about
(05:27):
nine years old is keeping watch over him. And it's
a tense scene. It's also obviously a critical point in
James's story, like it's really life or death. His narrative
has like all the hallmarks of a captivating drama. It's
full of conflict, spur of the moment decisions, and internal
moral dilemmas. And if you read the scene I was
(05:47):
just telling you about, you will definitely want to read more.
And this might be controversial to stay in this day
and age, but I do think slave narratives deserve more
screen time, hmm, say more so that I know of.
I don't think anyone has had beef with slavery documentaries
or nonfiction. There are an overwhelming number of slave narratives
(06:12):
told in academic and non academic books, but I think
on a mass American scale, people are typically engaging with
dramatized slavery films and that's where their opposition lies. People
are sick of fictional and fictionalized stories about slavery, and
the arguments are plentiful. Every time another slave movie comes out,
(06:35):
it's you know, trauma porn. Also, a lot of the
slavery movies are made in Hollywood, where most of the writers',
producers and executive producers are white, so you know, white
folks are grossly, doubly capitalizing off of our pain. And
some Black people are just tired of seeing representations of
black people who are struggling in media. They're tired of
(06:56):
seeing these sob stories with negative drama at every These
folks will often advocate for more black stories of triumph
and success or stories where black people are living lavish,
wealthy lives. They say things like we should be looking
forward and not backward.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And you don't agree with that.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Well, I think there are problems. There is that element
of positivity washing and this kind of desire to uplift
only exceptional Black people. And also time is a flat circle.
It doesn't really do us any favors to divorce ourselves
from our past and the people who are the reason
for our existence today if we are the descendants of slaves.
(07:39):
But I think a lot of the points that people
bring up against slavery movies are very valid. A lot
of them do have a lot of trauma in them
that are just there for trauma's sake, and a lot
of them are financial endeavors. They really don't care about
telling those stories. Well. But I think that even though
slavery movies have their pain points, we need more of them.
(08:02):
There are some slavery movies that have gratuitous violence to
make the institution of slavery seem sufficiently horrible to skeptical
or ignorant white folks. Often in these kinds of cases,
the storytelling really centers white audiences. But the reality is
that we are under educated in the United States. There
(08:23):
are people of all races who don't know much about
the realities of black history, let alone slavery history, and yes,
that includes black people. We have so much more to
learn about our history, and that info can become more
palatable for people when it's presented in dramatized accounts. For
US Black Americans, I think it can be really easy
(08:45):
for us not to place emphasis on the history of
enslavement and our links to it, because public school curriculums
don't emphasize it, and if it's importance isn't otherwise impressed
upon us, then it's easy to take for granted. Many
of us who had enslaved ancestors don't know their specific histories,
and I know that many of us aren't cracking open
(09:07):
an old slave autobiography and settling into our favorite reading
spot on a Sunday morning. And on top of all
of that, the history of enslaved people has been purposely
buried and erased. Enslaved people were people, though I'd like
to know their stories. I want to know how they lived,
what they smelled when they woke up in the morning,
(09:29):
how it felt for them to see the sun shining
through windows and what their favorite meals were to cook.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, I empathize with people who say they're tired of
slavery movies because of the ones we've been given. There
is a lot of violence, and it does seem like
it's there just to traumatize us, because that's what they
do oftentimes. What I want to see. I think it
would be really cool to see more depictions of like
(09:55):
the Reconstruction era, because like we'll see depictions of like
you know, the runaways, but like most people who are
enslaver are running away, but it was like for that
brief eight years during the Reconstruction era, like right after
slavery was ended, there was a lot of stuff going
good for black people. It didn't last, but I would
like to see kind of like the end of slavery,
(10:17):
maybe the Confederate army tried to get to fight for them,
you know, turning on the people in the back of
the line and shooting the Confederate soldiers and running over
to the un inside and seeing how their life happened
during the Reconstruction era. That's what I would like to see,
And like you said, like the more nuanced stories that
shows what their lives were like what their personalities were,
(10:38):
like their relationships they had with each other, and not
just the brutality.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
So I think about it this way sometimes that I
can imagine if people had never been kidnapped from the
African continent and brought to the Caribbean and the shores
of the Americas, Like, would we still be trying to
erase hundreds of years worth of those stories. All of
those stories are compelling. There's mystery, there's intrigue. All of
(11:06):
these people were individuals. They had cool skills, they had
dangerous plans, and they executed them, and they fell in
love and they deceived their loved ones. All of that
is very interesting, And I just want to think about
how we can acknowledge how we are hurt by these
kinds of stories and all that trauma that you were
talking about, and all of the slavery movies that we
(11:28):
do have. It's very real, it's very embodied. They are
all valid reactions. I am there right there with you,
And I also want to ask for more rich, complex
stories about slaves. Now am I asking for a lot?
Is the question? Can we really get that?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
In a way, it feels a little counter productive to
ask for fewer slavery movies. We don't want to see
more stories about black trauma. And I get that, I
don't want to see that either, but the call is
usually in all out moratorium on these movies, like none
at all, no more cut them. And that feels like,
I don't know, like white people won again, Like they
(12:10):
already have erased our history textbooks in the non fiction space,
so letting them erase this long period of our history
and wiping out the names and the stories and families
off the face of the earth again, it's like, I
don't know, it feels wrong. And like think about Roots,
the nineteen seventy six novel by Alex Haley. It was
(12:33):
a bestseller and it was soon turned into a couple
of TV series and it had a real impact, Like
people was gathered around that TV to watch The Roots
when it came out, and it really got people of
all races interested in researching their family history, but you know,
particularly black people. A lot of genealogical groups were made
during that time because they wanted to learn more about
(12:56):
their ancestors who came from Africa and lived on the
plantations in the United States.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, Roots was maybe the most prominent example of a
fictional slave narrative that was written by a black person
in the last half century. I mean, Kunta Kitte was
a household name. I don't know if it still is
for the kids today, but from this generation standpoint, I
feel like I can confidently say that, and there weren't
(13:22):
other shows like it on television at the time. Since Roots, though,
we have gotten a fair amount of major Hollywood films
about slavery. Are they all good though? No, absolutely not. Unfortunately,
Hollywood prioritizes money and stories that'll get a lot of
butts in seats. Also, movies can only be so long.
(13:45):
They have to filter through production company standards, audience testing,
the rating system, all of those kinds of things, and
Hollywood has a tendency to flatten stories that could be
really intricate and interesting because of people's in Hollywood and
because of all of these other moles that they have
to fit into. I know that there are independent creators
(14:07):
making films about slavery who really lack a larger platform,
but they tell beautiful stories. You know, it's always the
case that artists outside the mainstream they take risks and
they step freely. But you know, Hollywood does have a
white footprint. So speaking of Hollywood, it makes me think
of Antebellum. So I love Janelle Monnet, but I did
(14:27):
not love Antebellum, which came out in twenty and twenty
and it was written and directed by a black filmmaker
named Gerard Bush and a white filmmaker named Christopher Wrenz.
Now that movie got a lot of heat and hate
when it came out, and I'm not interested in just
piling on to that, but I do think it's worthwhile
to mention because it illustrates some of the pitfalls of
(14:47):
movies that include enslaved people. Well, in this case, people
are not really enslaved. But more on that soon. Here's
a quick summary of the film. Antebellum. Starts on a plantation,
are cruel and the enslaved people are brutally harmed and killed.
Monette plays Eden, a slave on the plantation, but has
(15:08):
revealed that in modern times, Money is doctor of Veronica Henley,
a successful sociologist and doctor. And while she's on book tour,
she's drugged and kidnapped, and she wakes up on the plantation,
which is actually not a plantation. It turns out to
be a civil war reenactment park, Monette kills the people
running the park and she escapes. Now, Antebellum isn't exactly
(15:32):
a slavery movie. It's horror and is not trying to
depict history accurately, but it does use the cruelty of
the history of slavery to try keyword there to get
its point across. So it falls victim to some of
the tropes that are in slavery movies. The characters are flat,
including Moname's. The concept of the soul militant savior is
(15:53):
also at play here because Monete's rescue effort is virtually
solo as her collaborators dieviolence is gratuitous and unnecessary, and
there's one woman who we barely get to know who
suffers horrendous trauma before she dies by suicide. It seems
like the film's creators like really just want to see
black women suffer. The violence against black people in this
(16:14):
film is definitely not earned. The white folks are seemingly
kidnapping the black folks because they want America to go
back to the way it was. It seems like the
creator's intent is to oppose this white supremacist sentiment, but
the vision isn't executed well, and in the end, it
gives what so many actual historical slavery movies give trauma
(16:35):
for the sake of trauma. I will say that some
people found the premise unbelievable, and that is fair, but
I don't think it's a completely bad heightened interpretation of
what's possible in real life, because it's not unbelievable that
like a white supremacist militia group would drug, kidnap whole
(16:57):
hostage and torture black people. It just wouldn't be in
something like a reenactment part that anyone can access and
leave at any time, Like this is not an exact
parallel to reality, but I do think there are parts
of it that could be reality.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Antabellum gave like they thought they were really being provocative,
you know, like in that Kanye West sounds like it's provocative.
It gets the people going, like they thought like, oh,
people are going to be like whoa and like get
all these awards, but it just kind of like huh,
It's like this is what cinema is.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And sadly, Antebellum is not an example of how to
make a good movie about enslaved people. We need fewer
slavery movies that spoonfeed audiences, discussed shock and sympathy. But
I have to say that in general, feeling tired of
slavery narratives period feels like a bit of a premature reaction.
And I'm just saying that because slavery movies are actually
(17:57):
kind of few and far between.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, there really aren't that many that got major attention.
There was Django and chand in twenty twelve, Twelve Years
of Slave in twenty thirteen, Birth of a Nation in
twenty sixteen, Harriet in twenty nineteen, Alice in twenty twenty two,
and Emancipation also in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
The reality is, the film industry isn't flooded with slave movies,
so we're not really inundated with slavery related trauma porn.
It just seems that way because most of the movies
that we do get revel way too long in the
gore and the immorality of the whites. They don't spend
much time in the interior worlds of the black people.
(18:38):
It's like this horrible atrocity is just happening to black people.
People are not tired because they are literally too many
slave movies. They're tired because when they are released, they
do enslaved people's stories no justice. There are literally thousands
of stories about enslaved people that are compelling enough to
(19:01):
be depicted on screen, and they haven't been. Now, I
don't think that every person should just love watching slavery films.
That would be wild of me to say. Of course,
that can still be a matter of personal preference. Even
having better slavery movies might not convince you to turn
one on, and that's totally fine. But if we are
(19:22):
going to ask for more of them, then we got
to be specific. If we're going to have more, we
need more well done, meaningful movies about slavery that are
skillfully crafted.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
They shouldn't center white heroes.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
They shouldn't cheaply use the horror and trauma that enslaved
people endure it to propel the story forward.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
They shouldn't cater to white audience looking to be absolved
of their sins.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
They should be sensitive to the humanity of enslaved people
because they were humans. They ate, they crafted, they danced.
We have so many untapped stories about slavery, and as
far as I know, there is no movie about James W. C. Pennington.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So somebody in your long hand make that and make it well.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yes, but y'all, I feel like we have to prove
to you that we're not the only ones who might
want more slavery movies. We're not completely yelling into the void. Okay.
We talked to Cheney McKnight of Not Your Mama's History
more after the break. Hi, Cheney, I'm Eve so yeah,
(20:37):
excited to have you here today too. We'll get into
it then. So just tell us your name and then
however you like to introduce yourself.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
My name is Cheney McKnight. I own a company called
Not Your Mama's History, and we have a YouTube channel.
We also go to sites, primarily sites of the enslavement
and help those sites to tell stories of black folks,
whether they were enslaved or free through the eighteenth and
(21:07):
nineteenth century. And on my social medias, I just try
and tell as many stories about black folks today and
in the past, and also try to look forward into
the future and bring us all into a better future.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So what inspired you to start that work?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Growing up in Georgia in Atlanta, we would go to
well at school, we would go to trips to plantations,
and especially when I went to a majority white school,
I was just looking around, like the interpretations they were
doing and the stories they were telling. I was like,
this really looks like and sounds like bullshit. So even
(21:51):
as a young child, I was like I got a question.
Like whenever the docin was like do you have a question,
I was the first person to raise my hand and say,
I have a lot of questions. And I was very
fortunate that I was raised by people who constantly took
me to exhibits on black folks throughout history.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So I know you're also into all these historical things
that you do in real life, but also in the
fictional world. I know that you're a film fan and
that you also watch a lot of historical films, and
some of those historical films are films about slavery and
about enslaved people. So what is your take on whether
(22:34):
we do not need more slavery films or whether we do.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Oh man, this is such a contentious topic, and for
a very good reason. I think if we look at
the history of movies of enslavement, we've gone through phases
where when you're looking at roots, people are trying to
show the whole nitty gritty truth about slavery. Going further back,
(23:07):
it's more like mental shows. So if you're looking at
Gone with a Win and Mammy's character, it's a caricature
and she is. Her character was not modeled often of
an actual enslaved person, so they weren't looking at primary documents.
(23:27):
They may have looked at some real women as far
as her face, but they were actually looking at mental
shows to build her character out. And then of course
coming into the future through Roots. I think the Roots period,
I understand where we were going because we're coming from
(23:50):
the other side, where they're showing it is lifels so
happy to be slaves and they're just having a good
old time. And then we're going all the way to
the extreme where every enslane person, on every second of
the day is being whipped. And yes, there was some
diversity in the experiences of these enslaved people, but there
(24:15):
are these very two extremes that I find both of
them stripped the humanity from people. Especially when we're coming
up into Amistad. There was a lot of strong storytelling,
but at the same time we missed a lot of
(24:36):
the humanity. And I think also who were these films
created for? Sorry, and I just the frustration for some
people is that there isn't this diversity of narratives and
(24:59):
a true humanity of these people shown in movies about enslavement.
And I look at Joker. You're able to humanize this
man who is pretty abhorrent, he's going through mental crisises.
(25:19):
But they're able to show a wide range of emotion
and humanity. And yet we are unable to do that
with enslaved persons who are actual, real people. And we
do have quite a bit of documentation about these people.
(25:40):
So I don't I would say, I don't want to
see another enslaved movie about enslavement in this country until
we see a full, well thought out story. One of
the things that I think about a lot when I'm
on a sight of enslavement, when I'm either sleeping at
(26:03):
a slave dwelling or in that place where enslave persons
were living. Sometimes when I'm laying in bed, I think about,
what are those conversations that they were having with their
loved one about their days while they're laid side by side.
What are those moments in the early morning when you're
(26:27):
you got to get out of bed and you like
and the babies crying and y'all arguing about who's gonna
pick up the baby. So things like that that I
really I'm not seeing brought in. And then also just
what about a for example, a love story of that
(26:50):
is not centered around enslavers. So I would love to
see a movie about enslaved persons that we don't see
and in slaver at all, but still showing the consequences
of living life as property, but not centering it on
that trauma, centering it on their experiences, their personality, their
(27:16):
interactions with one another, the relationships they build internally within
slave community. Those are some of the things that I'm
hoping to see, But I'm not sure if I trust
most media to do it correctly. So I'm not really
(27:37):
pushing people because I'm not trying to get my feelings hurt.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Uh huh, I feel you. Yeah. That was gonna be
my question to whether you think that would even be
possible when we know how Hollywood treats so many of
its other films in general, I.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Do not believe that if it is coming from Hollywood
or any of these large production houses, Absolutely not, don't.
I don't want to see it because it is not
for It is not for the ancestors. It is not
to tell the stories of the ancestors, It is not
(28:18):
to support the descendants. This is either trauma porn for
white folks or kind of a sorry excuse of like
white saviorism. So I don't think it's possible in the
way that our entertainment industry is structured now. However, I
(28:43):
am hopeful and prayerful that we will have independent companies
and funders who will come forward and give storytellers a chance,
writers who want to collabse break with historians like myself
and other historians. It doesn't have to be me. There's
(29:04):
wonderful historians out there and not compromise on telling these
stories appropriately.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
So it sounds like of all the slave movies that
have been put out, you're not rocking with any of them.
Are there any are the ones put out by Hollywood?
Are there any movies or the fictional depictions of slavery
that you think did a good job?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Oh? I would say the closest would come Miss Jane Pittman.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Okay, I mean.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
It has those issues, but it really goes through her life,
and I just I think that they did a very
decent job of showing her full humanity as a person.
So it follows the life of an enslaved woman who
(29:59):
was born enslaved through her entire life from the nineteenth
century to her challenging Jim Crow laws by drinking out
of a of a white only drinking fountain. So I
(30:25):
mean it spans a whole a whole century, and so
I think that it really shows kind of the interactions,
the internal interactions within black community over over decades.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So did you see one with Kiki Palmer?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Oh, Alice?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I think Alice.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I did not see Alice. Unfortunately it wasn't said.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
It was in like the seventies, so it was like
a they were never told that slavery ended. So like
the people on that plantation have been enslaves until she escaped.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Which is this real, real life story. Yeah, I will definitely.
I have not seen that yet. I have seen most
of everything I've seen the one with Janelle.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Monet ante Bellum, which I don't know if you saw
my saw first of all, you've tore it down in
a very meticulous way.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Okay, give us some of it.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Yeah, oh, ante Bellum. So the first thing first, it
was very interesting because from the jump, I was like,
this looks like a reenactment, because usually when Hollywood does
nineteenth century after I would say after the eighties, there's
(31:58):
at least proper undergarments, like the bell shape of the dresses.
Just just they were using like tiki torches or the
equivalent of tiki torches in the background, more modern stuff.
But it looked like the stuff that reenactors choose to
(32:21):
that feels old timy, and I was like, huh, which
actually fit very well. I think that's one thing they
did very well. It looked like modern people created a reenactment.
And then that's where it all went wrong.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
And I guess that aligns with the twist of the movie.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yes it does. So the twist is that yes, she
is this. They aren't actually enslaved back in the day.
At first, I thought it would be more like a
Kendrit so Octavia's Kendred. I know that lot of people
compared the two storylines, but it's not the same. One
(33:05):
is all set in the here and now, there's no
science fiction. The other one is very much steeped in
fiction and science fiction, jumping back and forth in time.
I see where they were trying to go, but it
was just why why it was just trauma for the
(33:28):
sake of trauma. And I really it really discussed me
when people use my ancestors just for the sake of
trauma and just the sake of horror.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, it also felt in that movie like they used
the entire institution of slavery as a plot point, like
they really didn't need to go back to the times
where people were enslaved to make this point that like
there are white supremacists and I don't want you to
live on this earth anymore. And that meant that because
they included slavery, it still fell victim to so many
(34:06):
of the problems that other movies that are actually about
slavery have. So yeah, lots of problems and trauma, lots
of trauma, And I can see with movies like that
and others why you wouldn't trust them. How can more
(34:34):
of that idea of the every day and the mundane
and community efforts, all those kinds of things, How can
more of those be included in slavery films? And what
do you think those should or could look like?
Speaker 3 (34:56):
I think from the jump there has got to be
a lot of debunking. I cannot tell you how many
black folks have argued with me about the structure of
the enslaved community. This idea that light skinned people were
(35:19):
in the house and they only worked in the house,
and dark skinned people were in the field and they
only worked in the field. That just was not the
case for in every situation, or even the majority of situations.
We get a lot of that from Thomas Jefferson from
(35:40):
Monticello because he structured his enslaved persons the haves and
the have nots. So he put up those barriers very
strictly at Monticello, and of course there's a lot of
interviews of people from Monticello, so that's kind of the
(36:00):
view that we get. Also, a lot of what we
know about enslaved communities comes from menstrreal shows. We don't
even realize how integrated our minteal shows are still in
in our modern day entertainment, even outside of movies about enslavement.
(36:21):
So when we get to looking at community represented within
movies of enslavement, the first steps would be acclimating the
audience to really understanding the reality of these communities. And
that's a vast diversity within the Black community so people
(36:44):
who worked in the house would not have only worked
in the house because that's a waste of resources. People
who worked in the field would have had interactions with
people in the house because those are their family members
and their community members. I would show more events that
(37:06):
happened through the year, more daily interactions, so when you
are going to eat, there is always someone who will
be like, I have extra. So when you're reading the WPA,
I'm sorry, the WPA narratives, you see a lot of
(37:29):
that where there are interactions between enslave persons, where people
have more of I don't know greens and another person
went hunting, and there isn't this running tab of you
owe me this or you owe that. You would have
just seen people dropping off greens or dropping off a
(37:53):
hair like a rabbit or something dropping off even gator
where wherever you are to help support one another. When
you start looking at simple things that have been portrayed
as the happy negro singing in the field, that was
(38:17):
a community effort to protect one another. So first and foremost,
if you keep pace the young folks who you know,
they can outpace all of us. But if they do that,
then the rest of us will never be able to
keep up. It'll make and then someone will get punished.
(38:40):
But if you can keep a pace where the slower
people can move up and the people, the young folks
who are you know out there, and then bring everybody
into about the middle. That is what the songs are
about keeping time. Also the love that the adults had
for the children when they teach them the songs. This
(39:04):
is an act of love because children started working at
four and expected to independently work. How many of us
have seen a four year old that can sit down
and actually do something like polish silver or make nails.
(39:25):
The nailery at Mount Vernon kids as young as six
years old. So you teach them songs to keep them
on task. And maybe if the adult who is monitoring
them can't keep their eyes on them, but you can
call out and you can hear the song continue going,
(39:45):
so you can hear that they're still at their task,
because if they aren't on task, we know what that
will mean. So there are little things within the daily
life of enslaved persons that have been it's represented for years.
That is an act of community love and mediation for
(40:08):
one another. Also, looking at the structure of enslaved communities.
Pastors and preachers were considered very dangerous because they had
a lot of power within enslaved communities. Also, African born folks,
especially if they were healers, they were considered to be
(40:32):
powerful and they held special places within Black communities. Elders
held special places within Black communities. A lot of times,
when we see movies where they look at the internal
structure of the enslave community, they really put the perceptions
(40:57):
of the enslavers and how they perceive the enslaved community
and their leadership. So if you look at some movies,
it is the black overseers that are considered to be
in charge or the master's man, the butler, or the housekeeper,
and that's just not the case. Black folks appointed their
(41:20):
own leadership. And if whenever I see and I'm looking
at journals or papers and if an enslaver here's about
an issue that's going on within the enslaved community, there
is a serious breakdown within the community, that means that
(41:44):
through a lot of work, they could not resolve it.
And so that is so rare. When I see really
serious incidents make it to the enslaver's ears. That means
that something's going within the community.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Clearly, everything you just said, I heard conflict, you know,
I heard love, I heard care, I heard organization. I mean,
all of these things are parts of storytelling. So it's
not like anybody can sit there and say, well, they're
not interesting. Yes they are. They're people's lives. So I
think I'm glad that you say it so much because
(42:23):
it helps people understand who may not be so familiar
with the history of slavery. I mean, I would guess
most people aren't like you are because you study it
and you work on these things. I think it really
helps break down just how many more stories we need
to hear. And that also, I think you made it
(42:45):
clear that just like these films that we're seeing is
just a continuation, a perpetuation of the idea that, like
these histories are being written by our oppressors. Like, just
how much we need to pay attention to the people
who are creating these works that we are consuming, and
that you know, if we're cognizant of that, then we
(43:05):
can also understand that there are creators who can hold
these things with more sensitivity and care. So are there
any specific enslaved people whose stories you like? To see
and created by the made by the right creators of
course told well, like let's assume that they know what
they're doing. They are masterful at visual storytelling. They treat
(43:32):
the story really well. All of that. Let's assume all
of that is the case. Is there any person's story
you like to see on screen?
Speaker 3 (43:42):
There is one particular person that I have wanted to
hear see the story played out on video on film,
and that is Hercules Posey, chef Hercules Posey. He was
enslaved by George Washington, and the foremost historian on Hercules
(44:05):
Posy is Ramine Genish Tramp and she has made it
her life's work to telling his story. There have been
people who have taken advantage of that and misrepresented her
work and Hercules Posy. So for me, I would love
(44:31):
to see his full story played out. Because he was
a chef, he was also considered to be a dandy.
But also no matter how well he was treated, still,
oh that's a good question. So someone who dresses very
(44:55):
well and carries themselves very posh. Well, so he always
had his hair on point, he always had his clothing
on point. And we know that he was married, he
had children, and he may have trained his son in
(45:18):
his craft as well. His story spans from Virginia to
New York, through Pennsylvania through the presidency, and it also
shows what I like to continually point out to people
that we have got to stop describing slavery based off
(45:44):
of the conditions, because for every one experience that enslaved
persons had, I can point to a poor white person
that had a similar experience. However, the horror of slavery
is really rooted in the fact that it is hereditary
(46:08):
chattel slavery, that they will be enslaved, their children will
be enslaved, their grandchildren will be enslaved, their great grandchildren
will be enslaved, and so on and so forth, with
no change. And so whether someone is wearing the finest
clothing at one moment, George Washington showed him at the
(46:28):
next moment, I could have you in rags, breaking rocks.
So his life really spans and he also was a
freedom seeker. He grabbed his own freedom, and so I
love his story and I think, if ever I had
a wish, I would love to see that. I would
(46:51):
love to see Hercules posey. I would love to see
the actual historians brought in primarily were me Ganishram, who
dedicated her life to his story. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I just can only imagine the things he heard being
George Washington's chef.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
Oh yeah, on a judge, on a judge as well,
because she she literally wore silk gowns, never was swept,
laid in bed, and when she reached for her freedom
and sought her freedom along with her children, and someone
came to her when she was living in squalor and
(47:35):
they were like, the Washington's will take you back, she
was like, nah, I'm good, I'm good here in poverty.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
So it really shows how precious freedom is.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Right no matter like you said, the condition, because at
the end of the day, you are considered someone's property,
whether you're in a silk robe or not.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Right, and they love, they love. So one of the
interesting things about North American slavery that's different from the
West Indies. I find in the West Indies they relied
on share brutality to keep people in line, and I
think it creates a different mentality because you have absolutely
(48:22):
nothing to lose. And also they were outnumbered in the
West Indies. In North America, it's really a mind game,
the mental manipulation that slavery in America. It really is
(48:43):
very fascinating and I like to see that more explicitly
explored on film, because you can even see the mental
mind games today, for example, when people as we're good
to you, aren't we mind games?
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Mind game, master manipulator?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Do you think that these kind of explorations would be
more suited to other mediums versus films because we got
we get films mostly, But what do you think about
maybe maybe TV being more suited to it, or podcast
or what other kinds of mediums?
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Again? I think yes, podcasts, especially when it is really
directed by specific people who have the mental fortitude to
say fuck you to money, to people who want to
change the narrative it is. I assure you, it's really
(49:53):
hard to say no to a lot of zero's. It
was very hard. But I think it takes someone who
is someone who has no self resonation or someone who's
just singularly focused on telling these stories.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
So you're saying there's some hope, I think so, I'm
just putting some stuff out into the universe.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
I really hope that people will want to tell our stories.
I am not ashamed of being a descendant of enslaved persons.
These are some of the strongest people I have ever met,
because I've met them through their narratives, through the things
that they've left, and I just can't help but want
to introduce the world to them. Also, the majority of
(50:44):
black folks in this country before the mid nineteenth century
were enslaved, and is so frustrating when people say, why
don't you tell this free person's story or this one
in a million persons story instead of slight stories about slavery.
And I can't help but be pissed off and annoyed
(51:07):
that people are dismissing the majority of my ancestors because
it makes them feel uncomfortable. And people are just lazy
in their storytelling. Tell our stories correctly and tell them fully,
That's all I ask. If they can tell the Joker
(51:28):
as a full human being, they can tell hercules story.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
So now it's time for role credits, the segment where
we give credit to a person, place, or thing that
we encountered during the week. And we have our guests
Shamey joining us. But first, Eves, who are what would
you like to give credit to?
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Today? I want to give credit to tab managers. I
know that seems very petty, but I often have a
lot of tabs open, so I shouldn't because they create
a lot of clutter in my brain space. But that's
how I got to operate sometimes. So TAP managers have
(52:08):
been helpful to me so particularly this week, and that's
what I want to give credit to today.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
How about you, Cheney.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
I want to give credit to Jerome Outlar. He's my
business partner and he's just a positive for us that
is always keeping me on track. Also when I possibly
want to strangle people, he has saved a few lives.
I have not tried to murder anyone.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
I mean, by the way you describe some of the
situations you're in because of your work, it seems like
it could test a lot of things. So it's understandable.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
Jerome got my back.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Got out to Jerome.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Shout out to Jerome. What about you, Katie.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
I'd like to give credit to librarians. I spent a
lot of time in libraries, and when you find a
good librarian, like you can know a library back and forth,
but sometimes you just have a question that you can't
figure out unless you're the librarian. And it's so funny,
like you'll take so long trying to figure it out
and then you just ask library and they're like, oh yeah,
here's the answer, and you're like, wow, I love you.
(53:23):
So I had that I had that happened to me
this week, and so I want to give credit to librarians.
So where can folks find you online?
Speaker 3 (53:34):
Not Your Mama's History and Mama spelled m m as.
You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook. I'm constantly
doing things around the country, so you can also find
me on that Your Mama's History dot com. So to
kind of figure out where I'll be in the upcoming
(53:57):
weeks months.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Yere perfect. Thank you so much for joining us, Thank you,
Thank You.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us
an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head
to on Theme dot Show to check out the show
(54:28):
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