August 15, 2024 • 27 mins
Who will teach the babies? We will, and we’ll do it through books. Today, Katie and Yves talk with Dolisha Mitchell, a children’s literature expert, about how we use books to pass down traditions and lessons to our beautiful Black babies.
Get show notes at ontheme.show
Follow us on Instagram @onthemeshow
Email us at hello@ontheme.show
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You are from the time we are born. Stories surround us,
whispering wisdom, sharing histories, and planting the seeds of who
we will become. For generations, black writers have used the
(00:34):
pages of children's literature as a canvas, weaving in the
rich tapestries of our culture, our struggles, and our.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Triumphs outside or inside, night or day. What's imagination? We
all play sounds on to a friends or on our own.
Everyone is welcome, We all belonged.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
She was born a dreamer, a dare, a maker of.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Her own way, passing down our stories into traditions to
the next generation, ensuring the lessons that guided us continue
to light the way. I'm Katie and I'm Eves. In
today's episode, Little Literature Lessons, we're exploring how black authors
passed down traditions and lessons through the pages of children's books.
(01:23):
Earlier this year, we lost faith Ringgold, the celebrated artist
and author.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
She was also one of the most influential voices in
using kids books to pass down traditions. She dedicated a
lot of her career to uplifting the Black American experience
through vibrant storytelling.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
In her award winning nineteen ninety one book, Tarbeach, Ringo
transports readers to the rooftop of a Harlem home during
the Depression era. Through the eyes of young Cassie Louise Lightfoot,
she paints a vivid picture a family, community, and joy
despite the difficulties.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I can fly. That means I am free to go
wherever I want for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Cassie dreams of freedom, of possibility despite limitations. Those dreams
echo the aspirations Faith Ringgold's own mother instilled in her
as a child. In this way, Tarbag becomes a multi
layered passing of the torch from the author's ancestors to her,
and then from Faith Ringgold to the many generations of
children who read her words, and.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Some of those children grew up to become children's books
authors themselves. After the break, we're chatting with Dalisha Mitchell
of Little Black Booknook.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
I am Dalisha Mitchell. I'm a writer, author my debut
board book How We Play. If you are on Instagram,
you've seen me as Little Black Booknook. But I also
do like book reviews for PBS kids, so lots of
titles stay with us.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, welcome, Thank you for joining us in studio, Thanks
for having me. Are there any standout books from your
childhood that like really taught you a lesson and it
really ingrained in you.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
So my parents were really intentional about me reading books
with black characters, which I appreciate, but also back then,
I feel like a lot of the books were racially charged.
So I'm sure like y'all probably read What was It? Ror?
What Is It? Ror? Thunder Here, Minecraft, thunder Here. Yeah,
I feel like everybody read that book. But I remember
(03:37):
reading books like Honey I Love and other Poems and
being so happy because they were just like relatable and fun,
like hanging out with your cousins and summer days with popsicles,
and so Honey I Love and Other Poems always stands out,
like I still have a copy to this day. I
used to like memorize it or recite them, and it
also was like written and like to me a little
(03:59):
bit of a sass seaway. So I remember like reading
them and swaying my hips and rolling my neck a
little bit. So I really liked that book in particular.
But Eloise Screenfield, Yeah, Louise Screenfield. Outside of that, I
was all about like Babysitters Club and was a Bailey
Science Kids Club. A lot of those kind of books
stood out to me back then, so those were my
(04:20):
probably favorites, and animals and goose Bumps, and I really
loved scary books, so Goosebumps was like top tier back then.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So when you say they resonated with you back then,
what do you mean by that. I'm trying to step
into the shoes of a child, Like when I think
of what resonates with me now, understand because I have
certain conditioning that's come up since then. And also, like
I know, I'm interested in certain things in society, and
that's why they resonate with me. When you were a child,
if you could put yourself back in those shoes, what
(04:49):
was it about the works that made you like, oh,
this feels right right.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I grew up in a really small rural town, so
anytimes I could find books that had experiences that were
outside of that, I loved it because like I didn't know,
like what a city block was, I didn't have any
idea about any of those sorts of things. So for me,
I really liked finding books that kind of took me
out of my small community and put me into the world.
(05:15):
So I also enjoyed books that brought me closer to
my family, which was a big, big thing for me.
So I think that's why when I talk about like Honey,
I love a lot of it talked about like summer,
spending time together with cousins, enjoying food together, playing games together,
all those sorts of things. So that's something that stood
(05:36):
out to me. I also have always loved Halloween. That
was something big in my family. We dress up, go
trick or treating together. So I always seeked out kind
of like those horror scary stories, which there weren't a
lot to offer during that time. I feel like for
kids anyway, it was always a little too much for
my age range at that time. But I always seek
(05:56):
to find some of those more scary spooky stories outside
of those, or about family.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, I love children's books that talk about like family
in summertime because then, like you as a kid, you're like,
let's emulate this, like let's have this barbecue. Like you
ain't helping with the barbue at all, but you just
like we need to just delegate. Hey, let me get
this jump rope. We gonna do some double Dutch. She
make some ice cream and it's gonna be ay.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
It's Mary Matt.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Did you have a book from your childhood that really
taught you a lesson or had that passed down tradition vibe.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I remember reading and when my mom got for me
the book but not Buddy by Christopher Paul Curtis. She
I think she might have gotten it from the library
for me, and I just remember, you know, thinking about it,
putting myself back in that era, like I got to
travel backward in time. I got to go on this
road trip. Also at the same time, I got to
learn a little bit more about blackness. That is one
(06:49):
book that stands out for me from my childhood. Before that,
I remember a lot of those. I don't remember what
they were called, but each one of the books had
a specific moral lesson in it. It was a whole
series of books. It was there were heartback Yes, they
were skinny, and it was like cartoon. They weren't them
in my house.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I do because I was bad. I was bad. If
my parents said you need this whole set, and they
would read them every day.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I would have to go dig through the garage.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
They're probably in there somewhere still, but that's what I
remember from early on. They were really trying to they
were hitting heavy with the propaganda early on.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
No, Yeah, it was like the titles will be like
stop tattle telling.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yes, I got straight to the point. Did it work
for any of us?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Not for me?
Speaker 4 (07:38):
No, not really. They were fun. I don't know why
they were fun to read, because I feel like I
like reading them all the time. Yeah, but I didn't
get the message.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I understood what they were trying to get at, but
I was like, I'm still tattle a little bit.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
It's a little too heavy.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
And then back then we knew it.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I feel like one for me that I remember like,
oh yeah, like I'm getting something out of this was
the story of Ruby Bridges. I was reading that when
we lived in Kansas, which is historically a very white place,
and I wasn't like the only black kid around, but
you know, one of very few. And I just remember
thinking like, am Igraphy Bridges not are you? And is like,
(08:16):
you know, my mom's from Jacksonssissippi, So like she didn't
shy away from talking about like racism or just like
the things like black people have gone through in this country,
even if I am seven years old, so like you're
gonna know about this. So I think that like really
shaped like my view of like society, like oh this
(08:39):
this how day? Uh huh. You know, I know I
know which audio and I still have that in me,
So like I'm interested for you, d Alisha, as an author,
how do you navigate those topics like racism and injustice
or trauma in like an age appropriate way but also impactful.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
So I think it's kind of like one side of
me as a black writer and creative. I enjoy finding
and writing books that aren't about those topics, just because
sometimes it's so much about that that sometimes when you
go to the library and you're looking for books that
have black characters, all stories kind of have that arc.
You know, you got the introduction of the protagonist and
(09:20):
a problem, and then but if all the black protagonists
problems are racism, kids can start to feel kind of
like that's the only story we have to tell. So
I seek to write more and find books that focus
more on stories of just black folks being black, like
having cookouts, getting their hair braided. Watched a new book
(09:41):
coming out that I can't wait to read books about
bedtime bondings and wrapping your hair up at night. I'm
looking for more fantasy for black kid lit too. I
think to approach topics on like racism or discrimination, I
try to make it more of this is a everybody's problem,
not of black problem. So how can we be more
(10:02):
inclusive to one another? On what does that look like?
Because when you're thinking about kids that are like four
and five, it's hard to get too deep because they
don't even quite understand just yet. But just making sure
if you're at the playground and everybody's over here playing,
is that one kid over there, invite them over to play?
You know, if you see a kid fall down and
hurt themselves by them over, if you see other kids
(10:23):
making fun of this one kid who happens to not
look like everybody else or have a disability, how do
we go about making sure that you know, they know
we're not having that. So I think it can get
really heavy sometimes, but I think there's a way to
always make it focused on inclusion and not so much
on the outright racism and oppression. Especially when you talk
(10:45):
about like zero to four age, it's really hard to
cover but I think all of them. Play is a
powerful thing we talk about. I talk about play a lot,
so I think making sure that we focus on including others,
being kind and if someone isn't, making sure that you're
that person that's going to stand up and make sure
that you're inclusive of that person or just protecting them
(11:06):
if needed. But I feel like sometimes kid lit, especially
for black kids, can get really heavy on the a
lot of books coming out that are all about somebody
being discriminated against or being racist, or which are important stories.
So I'm definitely not saying that those are definitely important stories,
but I think we have to make sure that we
(11:27):
like balance out what black stories are about, because thankfully
we're at a point where we get to tell our
own stories and narratives and not have them told for us.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, run in the past. Can you talk about play?
What lessons or values did you put in your book
that you wrote about play?
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I think for me is that like play looks different
for every kid, every family. I think not for me
as a parent to even realizing how controlling adults can
be about play, Like if you're too messy or don't
be too loud, or that's not how you play the
game when none of that matters to kids. I'm sure
all of y'all remember like making up games and you're like, Okay,
what's the rule? Well, no, if you get out two times,
(12:07):
then you got to be on this team and.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Changing in the middle of the game.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
In the middle of the game, we're like, oh no,
we always argue about what are the actual rules to
the game. So for me, when I think about, like
how I wrote my book about play and just watching
my son play, it's me as an adult giving up
the control and just letting him do his thing, and
even as a former teacher, just like letting them enjoy
themselves and figure it out because that's part of how
they learn through play. It doesn't have to be by
(12:32):
the book or it doesn't have to look the same way.
Some kids like to play by themselves in a corner
and that's fine. Others might just want to do something relaxing.
Other might want to jump off the top of a tree,
swing across and jump off, which I'm sure we all
remember that too, swinging and jumping off of the swings.
So I think just respecting that kids know how to play,
we don't have to teach them how to play. It
is natural for them. They're going to figure it out,
(12:55):
so just not you know, being controlling, letting kids play
and enjoy themselves.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I think that it's been the same over time. You
talk about how much there is around, I guess trying
to teach children empathy around. That's why the racial oppression
conversations come up so much. It's always about those. Is
it more like that in children's lit now than it
was before? Do you see a change in like maybe
a few decades ago, like how children's lit looked. Did
(13:22):
it focus on those types of stories as much then
as it does now?
Speaker 4 (13:27):
As far as it comes to empathy and racism. I
am grateful that I am starting to see more stories
where that's not the primary topic. So in the book,
there may be an instance where someone does something or
says something that's inappropriate, but that's not the whole focus
of the book. When I think back to books like
when I was younger, compared to the books that I
read to my son, there's a lot more and just
(13:49):
being kind and joyful and enjoying each other's company in
general versus you know, here's a story about you know,
a little black boy who wasn't allowed to participate in
this activity and how that shaped his life and his
family and so on. I feel like there were a
lot of those kind of moral stories of racism is
wrong back then. Now I feel like they're starting to
(14:10):
kind of be mixed into just the black experience. Like, yes,
we've all in this room, I'm sure experience racism, but
that's not our story per se. Like there's so many
other things that we go through from day to day
through time that we can talk about. So I would
like to say that I see now that it's more
focused on empathy in general and just being more inclusive
(14:30):
with others than the kind of story of black kid
being discriminated again, treated poorly and that's the end of
the story basically, because then it kind of feels like
that's all. That's the end of the story. We just
have to work through a racism. It's just, you know,
there's no way to work past it and through it.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
As a children's books expert, I need your opinion on something.
I feel like there's been a lot of news about
non black writers writing about black characters.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Yeah, and you.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Know, on one hand, people say, you know, it's just a
character anyone can write about it, and then on the
other hand, people say like, hey, like you're not in
this community, like why are you? Like what are your
thoughts on this?
Speaker 4 (15:18):
So I've had lots of thoughts and conversations about this,
and I think for me, it always boils down to
why are you writing about a character that isn't representative
of your experience?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Why?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Like, what's the why behind that? Because at one point,
a lot of books were coming out that have black characters,
which made a lot of us happy because we were
just happy to see black characters. But then when you
would search the author's name, you know would be a
white woman. And for me it becomes problematic because there
are tons of black authors who want a shot, They
(15:57):
wanted opportunity to write stories about people who have their experiences,
are able to tell those stories from a genuine place.
So when I see people who aren't from that background,
it's always met with like suspicion, like, well, why did
you choose to make this character black?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Why do you think they're doing that?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
Honestly, I think diversity became a really big thing, and
I think that they're able to use that opportunity to
pull in an audience that they wouldn't necessarily be able
to pull in with another white book, per se. So
if all the characters in the book are white, they
(16:38):
may feel like, Okay, well, this will only reach this group.
Whereas if I add, you know, a black character, especially
a black main character. I think it is important to
have diverse books. So as a black author, I don't
think my book should only include black characters. But if
I'm talking about the main character and their experience, I
just feel like it would be odd for me to
(16:58):
be like, Okay, this is going to be Billy, a
little white boy in Arkansas, because I have no you know,
no experie that right. So I think sometimes it's used
as a way to promote diversity, but it feels a
little bit like black face.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So you're saying that it's from the publisher's perspective or
is that from the author's perspective when they're choosing to
write the story.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
I think it's a little bit of both. I mean,
publishers want their books to sell, so I think when
it's popular to be diverse and have diverse characters, then
it's like, oh, well, what if we make this character
black instead or Asian instead? But I feel like when
you're an author and you write a story, you know
who that character is. I shouldn't be able to just
like swap out the race and it's the same story,
(17:45):
if that makes sense. Like, when you're writing a story,
your character should be a person that looks a certain
way and has certain experiences. I shouldn't just be able
to say, Okay, yesterday they were black. Oh no today,
let's make them Asian. Tomorrow, let's make them indigenous. Like
it should show some real experiences and background and references
to who that person is in their background. So yeah,
(18:07):
should have more depth to them. But I think publishers
and authors both kind of push that to sale books. Honestly,
when it's I was gonna say, when it's on themes.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Can we get you reading some of the lines from
your book.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
It starts off outside or inside or today with imagination.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
We all play, sometimes with friends or on our own.
Everyone is welcome, we all.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Belong, and that's my favorite part.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
We saw a stack, hide and seek, explore and observe,
s and leap, We color and paint, cut and blue
read a design something new. We we have and how
we and how we play?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
All right, So you know we're talking about children's books
passing down lessons and traditions, and as writers, you know
that when a book comes out, it has a little,
you know, description. So your task, I am going to
give you three words. With those three words, you're going
(19:32):
to come up with a description for a children's book
that has a lesson or is passing down some tradition.
You must use those three words. The review or the
description only about a paragraph, but you got to sell it.
Which one is going to become a bestseller? Dahalisha your
set of words, hula hoop Twins Moving, Eves your words
(20:00):
belly tomorrow and milk.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Milk that's anti black, Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
And we will hear from Eve's and Dahlicia after this
break and we're back. Dalicia, can you remind us of
your words?
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Hula hoop Twins Moving. Ellie and Elise are eager for
the fifth grade talent showcase. After months of practice, they
finally perfected their choreography and hula hoop twirls. That is
until Mom gets the big news she's been waiting for
(20:51):
a promotion that causes them to move across states to
the Big Apple.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I'm trying to get there, five minutes is not enough, Katie,
I was with you.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Too, Okay, Okay, I'm gonna just it's not going to
be in the same excitement. But the lesson is a
lesson of resilience. You know, they're going to figure out
how they can still be a part of this fifth
grade talent showcase by working with their friends. Okay, I'll
(21:39):
finish up. It's resilience though, that's the moral. Okay, we're
not there yet. Okay, that's it's resilience, right, stay staying
rooted in the community while also, you know, having Maybe
they don't the next city over and they have to
find a way back.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Okay, get some editing in.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I'm there with you. Okay, ease remind us of your word.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Belly, Tomorrow and Milk. Layla wakes up in the morning.
The sun shines through the window. It's a beautiful day.
She gets ready to have her favorite cereal in the morning,
Pretty Puffs. She fixes her bowl all on her own,
but oh no, the milk spills. She's sure that her
dad's going to be angry. What should she do? In
(22:26):
this book we have Tomorrow, Layla learns valuable lessons about
gratitude for a full belly and always having tomorrow.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
It's like food security, y'all.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
To be real, what I was thinking it was flash.
It was taking me back to the things that all
black parents say, like you already got food on the table,
We got food at home. I ain't got McDonald's money.
It's the first thing that came up in my mind
when I was thinking of bellies.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
And a lot of black people are lactose intolerant.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Milk.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Okay, just like that is not I believe it was
a draw. I think we're on an equal footing.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
At least there was a lesson anything.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I member the dad is like, oh, he gonna be abused?
What No.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I was thinking of this from a child's perspective, where
they kind of hype everything up in their mind and
they're like, you know, my parents are going to be
really angry. I just okay, that's how I thought of it.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
But okay, I'm glad she's not getting abused.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
This story would not get accepted.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
I think that's where we same where we land.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
The first draft of many Yeah, first drafts always very rough,
as illustrated.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
That was.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Not what I was expecting.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I love it. Okay, delisiha. How can folks keep up
with you? Do you have any future projects coming down
the pipeline?
Speaker 4 (24:17):
I do. You can keep up with me on Instagram
at Little Black Book Nook. And I finished up my
debut board book, How We Play, and I am already
working on my second board book with a Little Feminist
and it's going to be about Juneteenth. So that's my
next big project I'm working on and still just writing
(24:40):
all the time, all day, every day. So I'm hoping
to tell more stories, especially for the younger age group.
I feel like they're not enough board books with black kiddos,
So I think that's my lane for now.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And now it's time for All Credits segment, where we
give credit to a person, place, or thing that we
encountered during the week, and we are joined with Dollisha Mitchell.
But first, Eves who are what would you like to.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Give credit to today?
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I would like to give credit to spiritual teachers, all
of them, but also my spiritual teachers specifically. I really
appreciate all of the guidance they've given me, how generous
they are with their time and with the knowledge that
they're willing to share. I think the work that they've
done in my life and that they do in general
(25:32):
is very important and it's been very edifying for me,
So I'm grateful for them.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Dollisha, who are what would you like to give credit to?
Speaker 4 (25:40):
I would like to give credit to Ashley from Ninguzo Babies.
My baby and I went to a performance that she
put on with her puppets and it was so amazing.
We enjoyed it so much to see little black puppets
telling our stories, dancing bubbles. It was a good time.
So cheers some more puppetry.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
I'd like to give credit to physical media, like family media,
like the photo album, subscribe books, the VH S, VHC,
VHS tapes, the DVDs with the home videos on it.
I've been steeped in those and it's just really cool
to see, you know, the life of a person and
(26:22):
how they you know, grow up and change, and how
all these memories are captured and we just have them.
So it's nice to be able to look back on
those and hold them in your hand. And with that,
we will see y'all next week. Thanks so much for
joining us, Dolisha, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
How we play outside or inside night or day, What's imagination?
We all play, sometimes do with friends or on our own.
Everyone is welcome, We all belonged.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fearwell their
Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and
Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also
send us an email at hello at on Theme dot show.
Head to on Themet Show to check out the show
(27:17):
notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You are from the time we are born. Stories surround us,
whispering wisdom, sharing histories, and planting the seeds of who
we will become. For generations, black writers have used the
(00:34):
pages of children's literature as a canvas, weaving in the
rich tapestries of our culture, our struggles, and our.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Triumphs outside or inside, night or day. What's imagination? We
all play sounds on to a friends or on our own.
Everyone is welcome, We all belonged.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
She was born a dreamer, a dare, a maker of.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Her own way, passing down our stories into traditions to
the next generation, ensuring the lessons that guided us continue
to light the way. I'm Katie and I'm Eves. In
today's episode, Little Literature Lessons, we're exploring how black authors
passed down traditions and lessons through the pages of children's books.
(01:23):
Earlier this year, we lost faith Ringgold, the celebrated artist
and author.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
She was also one of the most influential voices in
using kids books to pass down traditions. She dedicated a
lot of her career to uplifting the Black American experience
through vibrant storytelling.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
In her award winning nineteen ninety one book, Tarbeach, Ringo
transports readers to the rooftop of a Harlem home during
the Depression era. Through the eyes of young Cassie Louise Lightfoot,
she paints a vivid picture a family, community, and joy
despite the difficulties.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I can fly. That means I am free to go
wherever I want for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Cassie dreams of freedom, of possibility despite limitations. Those dreams
echo the aspirations Faith Ringgold's own mother instilled in her
as a child. In this way, Tarbag becomes a multi
layered passing of the torch from the author's ancestors to her,
and then from Faith Ringgold to the many generations of
children who read her words, and.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Some of those children grew up to become children's books
authors themselves. After the break, we're chatting with Dalisha Mitchell
of Little Black Booknook.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
I am Dalisha Mitchell. I'm a writer, author my debut
board book How We Play. If you are on Instagram,
you've seen me as Little Black Booknook. But I also
do like book reviews for PBS kids, so lots of
titles stay with us.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, welcome, Thank you for joining us in studio, Thanks
for having me. Are there any standout books from your
childhood that like really taught you a lesson and it
really ingrained in you.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
So my parents were really intentional about me reading books
with black characters, which I appreciate, but also back then,
I feel like a lot of the books were racially charged.
So I'm sure like y'all probably read What was It? Ror?
What Is It? Ror? Thunder Here, Minecraft, thunder Here. Yeah,
I feel like everybody read that book. But I remember
(03:37):
reading books like Honey I Love and other Poems and
being so happy because they were just like relatable and fun,
like hanging out with your cousins and summer days with popsicles,
and so Honey I Love and Other Poems always stands out,
like I still have a copy to this day. I
used to like memorize it or recite them, and it
also was like written and like to me a little
(03:59):
bit of a sass seaway. So I remember like reading
them and swaying my hips and rolling my neck a
little bit. So I really liked that book in particular.
But Eloise Screenfield, Yeah, Louise Screenfield. Outside of that, I
was all about like Babysitters Club and was a Bailey
Science Kids Club. A lot of those kind of books
stood out to me back then, so those were my
(04:20):
probably favorites, and animals and goose Bumps, and I really
loved scary books, so Goosebumps was like top tier back then.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So when you say they resonated with you back then,
what do you mean by that. I'm trying to step
into the shoes of a child, Like when I think
of what resonates with me now, understand because I have
certain conditioning that's come up since then. And also, like
I know, I'm interested in certain things in society, and
that's why they resonate with me. When you were a child,
if you could put yourself back in those shoes, what
(04:49):
was it about the works that made you like, oh,
this feels right right.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I grew up in a really small rural town, so
anytimes I could find books that had experiences that were
outside of that, I loved it because like I didn't know,
like what a city block was, I didn't have any
idea about any of those sorts of things. So for me,
I really liked finding books that kind of took me
out of my small community and put me into the world.
(05:15):
So I also enjoyed books that brought me closer to
my family, which was a big, big thing for me.
So I think that's why when I talk about like Honey,
I love a lot of it talked about like summer,
spending time together with cousins, enjoying food together, playing games together,
all those sorts of things. So that's something that stood
(05:36):
out to me. I also have always loved Halloween. That
was something big in my family. We dress up, go
trick or treating together. So I always seeked out kind
of like those horror scary stories, which there weren't a
lot to offer during that time. I feel like for
kids anyway, it was always a little too much for
my age range at that time. But I always seek
(05:56):
to find some of those more scary spooky stories outside
of those, or about family.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, I love children's books that talk about like family
in summertime because then, like you as a kid, you're like,
let's emulate this, like let's have this barbecue. Like you
ain't helping with the barbue at all, but you just
like we need to just delegate. Hey, let me get
this jump rope. We gonna do some double Dutch. She
make some ice cream and it's gonna be ay.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
It's Mary Matt.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Did you have a book from your childhood that really
taught you a lesson or had that passed down tradition vibe.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I remember reading and when my mom got for me
the book but not Buddy by Christopher Paul Curtis. She
I think she might have gotten it from the library
for me, and I just remember, you know, thinking about it,
putting myself back in that era, like I got to
travel backward in time. I got to go on this
road trip. Also at the same time, I got to
learn a little bit more about blackness. That is one
(06:49):
book that stands out for me from my childhood. Before that,
I remember a lot of those. I don't remember what
they were called, but each one of the books had
a specific moral lesson in it. It was a whole
series of books. It was there were heartback Yes, they
were skinny, and it was like cartoon. They weren't them
in my house.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I do because I was bad. I was bad. If
my parents said you need this whole set, and they
would read them every day.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I would have to go dig through the garage.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
They're probably in there somewhere still, but that's what I
remember from early on. They were really trying to they
were hitting heavy with the propaganda early on.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
No, Yeah, it was like the titles will be like
stop tattle telling.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yes, I got straight to the point. Did it work
for any of us?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Not for me?
Speaker 4 (07:38):
No, not really. They were fun. I don't know why
they were fun to read, because I feel like I
like reading them all the time. Yeah, but I didn't
get the message.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I understood what they were trying to get at, but
I was like, I'm still tattle a little bit.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
It's a little too heavy.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
And then back then we knew it.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I feel like one for me that I remember like,
oh yeah, like I'm getting something out of this was
the story of Ruby Bridges. I was reading that when
we lived in Kansas, which is historically a very white place,
and I wasn't like the only black kid around, but
you know, one of very few. And I just remember
thinking like, am Igraphy Bridges not are you? And is like,
(08:16):
you know, my mom's from Jacksonssissippi, So like she didn't
shy away from talking about like racism or just like
the things like black people have gone through in this country,
even if I am seven years old, so like you're
gonna know about this. So I think that like really
shaped like my view of like society, like oh this
(08:39):
this how day? Uh huh. You know, I know I
know which audio and I still have that in me,
So like I'm interested for you, d Alisha, as an author,
how do you navigate those topics like racism and injustice
or trauma in like an age appropriate way but also impactful.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
So I think it's kind of like one side of
me as a black writer and creative. I enjoy finding
and writing books that aren't about those topics, just because
sometimes it's so much about that that sometimes when you
go to the library and you're looking for books that
have black characters, all stories kind of have that arc.
You know, you got the introduction of the protagonist and
(09:20):
a problem, and then but if all the black protagonists
problems are racism, kids can start to feel kind of
like that's the only story we have to tell. So
I seek to write more and find books that focus
more on stories of just black folks being black, like
having cookouts, getting their hair braided. Watched a new book
(09:41):
coming out that I can't wait to read books about
bedtime bondings and wrapping your hair up at night. I'm
looking for more fantasy for black kid lit too. I
think to approach topics on like racism or discrimination, I
try to make it more of this is a everybody's problem,
not of black problem. So how can we be more
(10:02):
inclusive to one another? On what does that look like?
Because when you're thinking about kids that are like four
and five, it's hard to get too deep because they
don't even quite understand just yet. But just making sure
if you're at the playground and everybody's over here playing,
is that one kid over there, invite them over to play?
You know, if you see a kid fall down and
hurt themselves by them over, if you see other kids
(10:23):
making fun of this one kid who happens to not
look like everybody else or have a disability, how do
we go about making sure that you know, they know
we're not having that. So I think it can get
really heavy sometimes, but I think there's a way to
always make it focused on inclusion and not so much
on the outright racism and oppression. Especially when you talk
(10:45):
about like zero to four age, it's really hard to
cover but I think all of them. Play is a
powerful thing we talk about. I talk about play a lot,
so I think making sure that we focus on including others,
being kind and if someone isn't, making sure that you're
that person that's going to stand up and make sure
that you're inclusive of that person or just protecting them
(11:06):
if needed. But I feel like sometimes kid lit, especially
for black kids, can get really heavy on the a
lot of books coming out that are all about somebody
being discriminated against or being racist, or which are important stories.
So I'm definitely not saying that those are definitely important stories,
but I think we have to make sure that we
(11:27):
like balance out what black stories are about, because thankfully
we're at a point where we get to tell our
own stories and narratives and not have them told for us.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, run in the past. Can you talk about play?
What lessons or values did you put in your book
that you wrote about play?
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I think for me is that like play looks different
for every kid, every family. I think not for me
as a parent to even realizing how controlling adults can
be about play, Like if you're too messy or don't
be too loud, or that's not how you play the
game when none of that matters to kids. I'm sure
all of y'all remember like making up games and you're like, Okay,
what's the rule? Well, no, if you get out two times,
(12:07):
then you got to be on this team and.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Changing in the middle of the game.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
In the middle of the game, we're like, oh no,
we always argue about what are the actual rules to
the game. So for me, when I think about, like
how I wrote my book about play and just watching
my son play, it's me as an adult giving up
the control and just letting him do his thing, and
even as a former teacher, just like letting them enjoy
themselves and figure it out because that's part of how
they learn through play. It doesn't have to be by
(12:32):
the book or it doesn't have to look the same way.
Some kids like to play by themselves in a corner
and that's fine. Others might just want to do something relaxing.
Other might want to jump off the top of a tree,
swing across and jump off, which I'm sure we all
remember that too, swinging and jumping off of the swings.
So I think just respecting that kids know how to play,
we don't have to teach them how to play. It
is natural for them. They're going to figure it out,
(12:55):
so just not you know, being controlling, letting kids play
and enjoy themselves.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I think that it's been the same over time. You
talk about how much there is around, I guess trying
to teach children empathy around. That's why the racial oppression
conversations come up so much. It's always about those. Is
it more like that in children's lit now than it
was before? Do you see a change in like maybe
a few decades ago, like how children's lit looked. Did
(13:22):
it focus on those types of stories as much then
as it does now?
Speaker 4 (13:27):
As far as it comes to empathy and racism. I
am grateful that I am starting to see more stories
where that's not the primary topic. So in the book,
there may be an instance where someone does something or
says something that's inappropriate, but that's not the whole focus
of the book. When I think back to books like
when I was younger, compared to the books that I
read to my son, there's a lot more and just
(13:49):
being kind and joyful and enjoying each other's company in
general versus you know, here's a story about you know,
a little black boy who wasn't allowed to participate in
this activity and how that shaped his life and his
family and so on. I feel like there were a
lot of those kind of moral stories of racism is
wrong back then. Now I feel like they're starting to
(14:10):
kind of be mixed into just the black experience. Like, yes,
we've all in this room, I'm sure experience racism, but
that's not our story per se. Like there's so many
other things that we go through from day to day
through time that we can talk about. So I would
like to say that I see now that it's more
focused on empathy in general and just being more inclusive
(14:30):
with others than the kind of story of black kid
being discriminated again, treated poorly and that's the end of
the story basically, because then it kind of feels like
that's all. That's the end of the story. We just
have to work through a racism. It's just, you know,
there's no way to work past it and through it.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
As a children's books expert, I need your opinion on something.
I feel like there's been a lot of news about
non black writers writing about black characters.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Yeah, and you.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Know, on one hand, people say, you know, it's just a
character anyone can write about it, and then on the
other hand, people say like, hey, like you're not in
this community, like why are you? Like what are your
thoughts on this?
Speaker 4 (15:18):
So I've had lots of thoughts and conversations about this,
and I think for me, it always boils down to
why are you writing about a character that isn't representative
of your experience?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Why?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Like, what's the why behind that? Because at one point,
a lot of books were coming out that have black characters,
which made a lot of us happy because we were
just happy to see black characters. But then when you
would search the author's name, you know would be a
white woman. And for me it becomes problematic because there
are tons of black authors who want a shot, They
(15:57):
wanted opportunity to write stories about people who have their experiences,
are able to tell those stories from a genuine place.
So when I see people who aren't from that background,
it's always met with like suspicion, like, well, why did
you choose to make this character black?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Why do you think they're doing that?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
Honestly, I think diversity became a really big thing, and
I think that they're able to use that opportunity to
pull in an audience that they wouldn't necessarily be able
to pull in with another white book, per se. So
if all the characters in the book are white, they
(16:38):
may feel like, Okay, well, this will only reach this group.
Whereas if I add, you know, a black character, especially
a black main character. I think it is important to
have diverse books. So as a black author, I don't
think my book should only include black characters. But if
I'm talking about the main character and their experience, I
just feel like it would be odd for me to
(16:58):
be like, Okay, this is going to be Billy, a
little white boy in Arkansas, because I have no you know,
no experie that right. So I think sometimes it's used
as a way to promote diversity, but it feels a
little bit like black face.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So you're saying that it's from the publisher's perspective or
is that from the author's perspective when they're choosing to
write the story.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
I think it's a little bit of both. I mean,
publishers want their books to sell, so I think when
it's popular to be diverse and have diverse characters, then
it's like, oh, well, what if we make this character
black instead or Asian instead? But I feel like when
you're an author and you write a story, you know
who that character is. I shouldn't be able to just
like swap out the race and it's the same story,
(17:45):
if that makes sense. Like, when you're writing a story,
your character should be a person that looks a certain
way and has certain experiences. I shouldn't just be able
to say, Okay, yesterday they were black. Oh no today,
let's make them Asian. Tomorrow, let's make them indigenous. Like
it should show some real experiences and background and references
to who that person is in their background. So yeah,
(18:07):
should have more depth to them. But I think publishers
and authors both kind of push that to sale books. Honestly,
when it's I was gonna say, when it's on themes.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Can we get you reading some of the lines from
your book.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
It starts off outside or inside or today with imagination.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
We all play, sometimes with friends or on our own.
Everyone is welcome, we all.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Belong, and that's my favorite part.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
We saw a stack, hide and seek, explore and observe,
s and leap, We color and paint, cut and blue
read a design something new. We we have and how
we and how we play?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
All right, So you know we're talking about children's books
passing down lessons and traditions, and as writers, you know
that when a book comes out, it has a little,
you know, description. So your task, I am going to
give you three words. With those three words, you're going
(19:32):
to come up with a description for a children's book
that has a lesson or is passing down some tradition.
You must use those three words. The review or the
description only about a paragraph, but you got to sell it.
Which one is going to become a bestseller? Dahalisha your
set of words, hula hoop Twins Moving, Eves your words
(20:00):
belly tomorrow and milk.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Milk that's anti black, Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
And we will hear from Eve's and Dahlicia after this
break and we're back. Dalicia, can you remind us of
your words?
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Hula hoop Twins Moving. Ellie and Elise are eager for
the fifth grade talent showcase. After months of practice, they
finally perfected their choreography and hula hoop twirls. That is
until Mom gets the big news she's been waiting for
(20:51):
a promotion that causes them to move across states to
the Big Apple.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I'm trying to get there, five minutes is not enough, Katie,
I was with you.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Too, Okay, Okay, I'm gonna just it's not going to
be in the same excitement. But the lesson is a
lesson of resilience. You know, they're going to figure out
how they can still be a part of this fifth
grade talent showcase by working with their friends. Okay, I'll
(21:39):
finish up. It's resilience though, that's the moral. Okay, we're
not there yet. Okay, that's it's resilience, right, stay staying
rooted in the community while also, you know, having Maybe
they don't the next city over and they have to
find a way back.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Okay, get some editing in.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I'm there with you. Okay, ease remind us of your word.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Belly, Tomorrow and Milk. Layla wakes up in the morning.
The sun shines through the window. It's a beautiful day.
She gets ready to have her favorite cereal in the morning,
Pretty Puffs. She fixes her bowl all on her own,
but oh no, the milk spills. She's sure that her
dad's going to be angry. What should she do? In
(22:26):
this book we have Tomorrow, Layla learns valuable lessons about
gratitude for a full belly and always having tomorrow.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
It's like food security, y'all.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
To be real, what I was thinking it was flash.
It was taking me back to the things that all
black parents say, like you already got food on the table,
We got food at home. I ain't got McDonald's money.
It's the first thing that came up in my mind
when I was thinking of bellies.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
And a lot of black people are lactose intolerant.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Milk.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Okay, just like that is not I believe it was
a draw. I think we're on an equal footing.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
At least there was a lesson anything.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I member the dad is like, oh, he gonna be abused?
What No.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I was thinking of this from a child's perspective, where
they kind of hype everything up in their mind and
they're like, you know, my parents are going to be
really angry. I just okay, that's how I thought of it.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
But okay, I'm glad she's not getting abused.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
This story would not get accepted.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
I think that's where we same where we land.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
The first draft of many Yeah, first drafts always very rough,
as illustrated.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
That was.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Not what I was expecting.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I love it. Okay, delisiha. How can folks keep up
with you? Do you have any future projects coming down
the pipeline?
Speaker 4 (24:17):
I do. You can keep up with me on Instagram
at Little Black Book Nook. And I finished up my
debut board book, How We Play, and I am already
working on my second board book with a Little Feminist
and it's going to be about Juneteenth. So that's my
next big project I'm working on and still just writing
(24:40):
all the time, all day, every day. So I'm hoping
to tell more stories, especially for the younger age group.
I feel like they're not enough board books with black kiddos,
So I think that's my lane for now.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And now it's time for All Credits segment, where we
give credit to a person, place, or thing that we
encountered during the week, and we are joined with Dollisha Mitchell.
But first, Eves who are what would you like to.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Give credit to today?
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I would like to give credit to spiritual teachers, all
of them, but also my spiritual teachers specifically. I really
appreciate all of the guidance they've given me, how generous
they are with their time and with the knowledge that
they're willing to share. I think the work that they've
done in my life and that they do in general
(25:32):
is very important and it's been very edifying for me,
So I'm grateful for them.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Dollisha, who are what would you like to give credit to?
Speaker 4 (25:40):
I would like to give credit to Ashley from Ninguzo Babies.
My baby and I went to a performance that she
put on with her puppets and it was so amazing.
We enjoyed it so much to see little black puppets
telling our stories, dancing bubbles. It was a good time.
So cheers some more puppetry.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
I'd like to give credit to physical media, like family media,
like the photo album, subscribe books, the VH S, VHC,
VHS tapes, the DVDs with the home videos on it.
I've been steeped in those and it's just really cool
to see, you know, the life of a person and
(26:22):
how they you know, grow up and change, and how
all these memories are captured and we just have them.
So it's nice to be able to look back on
those and hold them in your hand. And with that,
we will see y'all next week. Thanks so much for
joining us, Dolisha, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
How we play outside or inside night or day, What's imagination?
We all play, sometimes do with friends or on our own.
Everyone is welcome, We all belonged.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fearwell their
Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and
Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also
send us an email at hello at on Theme dot show.
Head to on Themet Show to check out the show
(27:17):
notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.