August 8, 2024 • 38 mins
Katie and Yves share their progress on what they’ve been writing and give spirited reviews of their latest reads.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Friends Media. You are the start.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You remember the beginning of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
It feels like it's been years since the beginning of
twenty twenty four. What exactly are you remembering?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I was thinking about us talking about what stories we
were looking for to consuming and creating. I said, I
wanted to read more nonfiction classics, finish my book, and
write short stories. So thinking about like the new year
and things we want to see in the future, I
am thinking about like what stories I want to read, watch,
(00:52):
listen to, and just like what I'm going to be
on the lookout for.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Oh yeah, I remember that, And I said I wanted
to read more folk tales and write more about nature
and the environment. So some of the things that I
want to explore in the new year are stories that
are centered around local and regional folklore. And that's because
I do like fantasy. I like being in imagined worlds.
I like world building in certain ways, but things that
(01:21):
have really rich characters in them. And I feel like
there's so much that I want to learn about the
world and the people in the world.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I thought it's time of checking on our goals, share
our progress and what we've been writing, and give reviews
on our latest frees. Okay, let's do it. I'm Eves
and I'm Katie. Today's episode, Same year news stories, So
(01:54):
let's hear an update on the writing front.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
The writing front is stressful because I feel like I'm
never doing enough for myself. I haven't been writing as
much environmental and horror fiction and fiction or it just
works in general about nature as I wanted to. I've
been able to work on some updates on some old
stories that I was putting together. I've also been able
(02:18):
to work a little bit on my book, but a
lot of my time has been taken up with writing
about history and writing about black people too. But yeah,
that's that's how my writing is going. But it's been
I will say I've gotten a lot of words out.
I've gotten a lot of words out, but were they
(02:40):
always the words that I really wanted to be putting
on the page in the moment?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So tell us more about your stories.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So I am working on a story that it has
a beginning and an ending. It's probably about I don't
know three hundred three thousand words right now, but I've
been working on it, but it just needs something else.
It's about the game of knocking on doors and running
(03:08):
with a group of black kids, and it ends up
in this kind of like fantastical place that they find
themselves in in this dilapidated building, and there is a
group of adults that they meet and they're not really
sure what's going on. But I really don't like the
ending right now, like something needs to be refined in it.
(03:29):
In the story, I'm thinking about abandonment, like I'm thinking
about like having a close knit group of friends as
a black child in the South. Specifically, I'm thinking about
what it means to show up for children in a way.
(03:50):
But I think some of my themes might shift as
I like figure out more where I want to go
with the story. But it definitely needs several more drafts.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I would say, how many of them are you said
you're updating it.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
It's one of those stories that I wrote probably like
a year ago and have been just like touching it
every now and then since then.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Do you know what you want to do with it?
Is it like you post it online? Are you? Is
it a part of a collection.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I've sent it out, but I still would like it
to be in a different place.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So explain to people what you mean when you say
sent it out to some places.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
When I say sent it out, I mean submitting it
to literary journals to be published in their pages.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Okay, Yeah, so you wanted to stand on its own Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
That's correct. Yea. I wanted to be its own story.
I've thought about expanding it for a minute. I thought
about turning it into like potentially like novel, but I
don't think I want to take it there. It felt
right as a story. Once I tried to start doing that,
I was like, nah, this is a story.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, some things are better short.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
And you said you're writing about history.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yes, and that is work that's not for myself, that's
for other people. But so, you know, one of those
obligation things. I mean, I'm not going to complain about.
I'm grateful to be able to write and get paid
for it. But I have been writing quite a bit
about history, about the civil rights movement, about civil rights leaders,
(05:12):
about leisure. Yeah. I've been doing some of that work,
and that's been taken up a lot of my time.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So in this writing process, have you learned anything?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah? So I think I've learned. Content wise, I've learned
some things. I feel like it's a never ending process,
but learning a lot about the craft of writing and
being able to hone in on a specific moment and
be able to really get people to step into a
moment and feel like they're there and be invested in
(05:42):
the motivations of the characters, and to build an arc
that is actually one that people want to follow. I
think a lot of the time I get lost in
all of the small details and I try to fit
in as many as possible, and I am unable to
(06:03):
see the whole for all of the small details a
lot of the time. And that it's like if I'm
on deadline or if I'm writing for somebody else and
there's the word limit me eves, it's probably gonna go over.
Like you know, that comes first, and then getting down
to the meat and potatoes and like making it something
that feels alive. I guess comes a little bit later,
(06:26):
which I guess is typical, but you know, just refine
that for myself. So what about you, Katie, What do
you have going on in writing land?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I have submitted my book, so the first draft and
the second draft are done, and I was looking back
at my book proposal and I really undersold what I
turned in. I was like, girl, you could have get
some about buddy. I undersold it. And I think it's
interesting because you can see like the the growth I
(06:58):
had and just knowledge. It was a lot of things
that I didn't know until I started researching it and
started talking to people, and it's like, oh, well, there's
no way this can't go in the book. But when
I proposed it, I just had no idea it existed.
So I think an exercise in like journalism that I'd
never had before.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
For real.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
It was a lot of research, a lot of talking
to people, and then like synthesizing that in a way
that would be interesting. And it's profiles of bookstores from
eighteen thirty six to twenty twenties, and so each profile
it's like, Okay, gotta say something different about this bookstore.
And I think black bookstores are always like put together, like, oh,
(07:37):
here's a list of fifty block bookstores. Here's a list
of these block bookstores support these block bookstores. So they're
kind of put all together in a group, and it's like,
what can I say that's interesting about each one? What's
something that's really funny that happened at these bookstores. What's
something that no newspaper, you know, no social media posts
has said about this bookstore. And I feel like I
was being like kind of selfish in that way. I
(07:58):
was like, I want all the details tell people. I'm like, well,
don't tell me all the other stuff you told people,
because I already read it when I was researching them.
It's like I want something new. And it's like talking
to people and they have like their stump speech, and
like I have it too when people talk to me
about stuff and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, what's really going on,
you know, like trying to break that down for them.
So that's been a lot. And also I learn is
(08:19):
that writing is I would say, like a tenth of it.
It's really editing. I have never edited something so much
like myself, not like having an editor. I'm like, I'm
going to edit this like three or four times before
the editor even sees it. And so like seeing how
that has progressed, and seeing just like all the tricks
to make something just interesting, Like you can be saying
(08:39):
giving people the same information, but if you're saying it
in a way that uses all these like rhetorical devices.
It's like way more fun to read. It was more
fun for me to write and like put my name on.
So that is what is going on with the book.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So as you've gone through that editing process, do you
feel like you've gotten more proud of your work.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I wouldn't say I'm a proud a person generally, so sure, Yeah,
I started at zero. Now we're here, and I have
not been writing short stories. I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Ahead and admit it.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I ain't right. I ain't reading one short story. It's
funny because I'll be having so many ideas for a
short story, like I have a collection, I have the
overall theme, I have each story in my head. They're
so funny. I'm like, I don't know, maybe they're just
for me to laugh at in my head until you
get them on the page. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I've never written fiction for real, and it's just something
that I I don't know. I'm just a real ass
beach for real, So I don't even know if I
can make it up for it.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
After the break, we'll get into what we're reading and
if we recommend you read it.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Too, stay with us.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So earlier this year, I said I wanted to read
more classic nonfiction, and I ain't gonna hold you. I
have not been doing that, but I have gotten into
classic fiction. Okay. As someone who's on book talk and bookstrogram,
it's easy to get swept up in all the new releases.
But there's definitely a lot of books that were published
way before I was born that I never got around
(10:22):
to reading. One of them being The Street by Anne Petrie.
Have you read it?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I think I started that book and didn't finish it. Oh,
you ain't like it.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It didn't hold your attention.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I want to say that I get distracted, but tell
me where.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Okay, So here's the synopsis. So the Street was published
in nineteen forty six, and it is among the earliest
novels published by a black American woman to receive national
critical acclaim in literary prestige. It's set in World War
two era black Harlem. So the Street is rough, and
the Street becomes a character itself. It's so present, But
(10:57):
I'm getting ahead of myself. The novel centers Luddy Johnson.
She's cute, she's hard working. She has an eight year
old son named bub An alcoholic father and a cheating
husband who she quickly leaves after she finds out that
he's using the money she sends back home from working
as a live in maid for white folks to shack
up with another woman, so she finds an apartment and
(11:17):
building in Harlem. The building isn't great. There's prostitution, folks fighting,
a creepy souper who becomes obsessed with Leuddy and assaults her.
She really is trying to make enough money to move
into a better neighborhood with bub. She tries out singing
in a nightclub, but the white man who owns the
building she's in has other plans for her, and she's
forced to stand up against all the bullshit that's been
thrown her way. When I finished this book, I was like, no,
(11:40):
not my gird.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Okay, yeah, I definitely don't say anything because I don't
want it to be spoiled. I'll probably read it.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Okay, no spoilers. But I really felt deeply for these
characters in particular. It felt like they were real and
I want to reach into the book and save them.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And that didn't make you want to write fiction.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
No, I it made me not want to because I'm like,
I can't do that. I don't have the range.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So when you were reading it, did you feel like
you were paying attention to the craft, like how she
was building from one moment to the next, or were you.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Just fully I was wrapped up in it. Yeah, I
was wrapped up in the story. I think there's sometimes
when I can do that, but I think I can
do that more with nonfiction. I see what you're doing there, Okay, Yeah,
I got it. I think maybe when I'm like listening
to like comedy specials, I can see what they're doing,
you know, with the callbacks and you know.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
That's a very specific example why comedy specials.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I don't know why I can see it, but I can.
I don't know because like comedy specials, they're presented as nonfiction.
They're not one hundred percent nonfiction but auto fiction. Yeah,
but I don't know. I was wrapped up in the story.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Okay, So tell me more about Letdy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I identified with her, like she understands like what she's
up against as far as you know, the economics of
it all, the sexism of it all. But she's like,
you know, I got my son, and I got to
make it work. Like she doesn't really mention her mom.
I think her mom died, and her dad ain't really
(13:11):
much help. He's like an okay guy. He'll like watch
the baby sometimes, but you know, he got his own
stuff going on. And then her husband's not helping her.
So she's like, you know, I gotta get it out
of the mud. I gotta do what I gotta do.
So you know i'd be getting out the mud. I'm
just like, oh God. But you can like really see
like she's really trying, like you know, like you you
(13:33):
be rooting for people. She was a central character and
then like all the people like she came in contact with,
you could see how they were like working towards her
betterment or like working against it, and unfortunately there are
more people working against it. And then so you identify
with her and you root it for her. But did
you feel like she was an unlikable character or a
likable one? No, she was likable. I feel like the
(13:53):
author made her likable, Like she wasn't a pushover, but
you could tell like she had good intentions for her
and her son, and she peeped when people were being weird,
and you know, she wasn't shy about you know, expressing that,
but yeah, she was liable to me.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Okay, So besides Luddy, who are some of the other
characters that you found compelling or that you really felt
aligned with? Aligned with?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
None of them, But there was a character. It was
a woman who lived in her same building. And the
way she's described is she'd just be sitting in her window,
like washing the street. She knows everything's gone on the street.
And she also was a madam, so she was pimping
out girls out of her apartment, which you would think
is like not that likable, like, but I still liked her,
(14:42):
you know.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Did she feel like a mother figure in there? Because
that's often how madams are portrayed.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
She was by her business, you know that she was
by her business. But there's, like I want to say,
like multiple situations in the book where women go to her.
Not women that she pimping out, but women who live
in the building go to her for help and she
helps them and she don't charge them, and she like
protects the women in the building, even the ones that
(15:09):
aren't living with her, and so she like helps out Letty,
she helps out another woman who's like being mistreated in
the building. So you know, even though she has her flaws.
I was like, I see what you're doing. Her name
is miss Hedges.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I think, So what were your expectations when you went
into the book?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
They're pretty neutral. It's an older book, and sometimes older
books like will have like outdated language or just like
situations that you really can't relate to as a twenty
first century guawl. So they're neutral. But I do like
books from around this time period too, So I read
(15:48):
like Passings or like around the time period, like the twenties,
So I do like books on that time period. Black
nol More set in that same time period or they're
about so I was like, okay, kind of neutral, just
like open and open mind. I know people have said
they really liked it. It was a classic. Some classics
don't be good, oh no, some don't be hidden. So
that was neutral.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So without spoiling it, what did you make of the
ending of the book?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Me, personally, I wouldn't have written that ending, okay, but
I think it was an appropriate ending.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
That did not sound like that was positive to me
because when you say appropriate, that sounds safe, and it
wasn't safe. Okay, it wasn't safe, but it was.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Like the ending I would have written would have been
like fantastical, like girl, does ding' happen? Like it's not
like the thing that would happen like something miraculous would
have had to go down from my endings happened.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Did it seem like other editors or the publisher might
have had their hand in the ending that was written.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
It's hard for me to say. I don't know what
her writing process was. And that was my first book
I've read from her. I know she has a couple
more that i'm that are on my list to read.
But I think looking back and how she set everything up,
it was probably gonna end that way.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Would you read it again?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I don't be reading books twice.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Oh yeah, I do know that about you. So I
know there is assault in the book. How did that
portrayal impact you as a reader.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It was like a very suspenseful scene. I am glad
that it wasn't like so graphic. It was physical assault,
but it was racistin so I'm like, oh, no, it's
gonna happen to my girl. No, no, no, like you know,
trying to race through to see what happens. And then
but in that scene you see like again the women
(17:35):
coming to another woman's aid, which I think is a
theme in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
So how do you feel like she was able to
build that suspense at the moment, Like, thinking back on it,
do you kind of see the moves that she did
to get there?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, I mean she foreshadowed that the person that was
going to assault her was like obsessed with her and
like creepy and just like leering, So you kind of like, Okay,
something's going to go down here. And they she always
talks about like how beautiful she is and shapely and
a good singer. She's just like truly the baddest bitch
on the street. Yeah, so you're like, okay, like if
(18:15):
someone just like doesn't respect, you know, another person's autonomy
like they would, she would be the person that they're like, Okay,
I'm going to take you. So she she did some
foreshadowing for sure. And the version that I read, Tyari
Jones wrote the intro, which I don't always like reading
intros by someone that's not the author, but I think
(18:35):
TYRII did a good job because she was talking about
like her experience reading it for the first time in
college at Spelman, and she put it in conversation with
other books that she read during that class and how
they portrayed women differently, and this book portrayed women more dynamically.
So I think she did like a good setup. She
gave some like all right, she's gonna get assalted, so
(18:57):
it wasn't like a shock. But yeah, I liked how
tire you did that. She did that, good job, Tire.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
So ultimately, would you recommend this book to someone else?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, I think anyone who like fiction, historical fiction, even
though it doesn't read us historical fiction, would like it.
I think if you like character studies plus good plot,
you would like it. And yeah, if you're like me
and trying to read more classics and not just be
on every Tuesday looking to see what new book is out,
this would be a good place to start. After the break,
(19:26):
we'll hear what Ease is reading.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
So I really enjoyed hearing you talk about The Street
by Anptree. You have recommended it, so now I will
move it up higher on my list. So yeah, I'm
excited for that, because, like I said, I do I
need some more fiction in my life. I'm not sure
if this sounds like the lightest book to bring in now,
(20:00):
but I'm looking forward to reading it because I already
know about Amptrie and like, you know, started it and
didn't finish it, so I'm going to go back to it.
But as to be expected, what I have been reading
is nonfiction, and I read Black women writers at work.
I read nonfiction, but I don't read I read craft sometimes.
(20:24):
And I think I actually kind of revising what I
said at the beginning of the year want to read
craft books more. I've actually enjoyed the craft books that
I have read. I think the thing with craft is
that it can really compound if you don't integrate it.
It's like you get all of this knowledge about craft,
you're like, Okay, Wow, that's a great technique or that's
a good tactic that I can use in writing. This
(20:46):
will really help me get my stuff together, and then
you know, you move on to the next craft book
and you're like, oh, that's a great idea, Like oh.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I need to implement it.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
You got to implement it. So yeah. But this book
was edited by Claudia Tate, and I I've never read
it before, so I figured now would be a fitting time.
It was published in nineteen eighty three and in the book,
Claudia Tate interviews a bunch of legendary writers, telling me Morrison,
Alice Walker, and Audrey Lower, just to name a few,
(21:14):
And it is exactly how it sounds like. Tait kind
of cycles through some of the same questions as she's
talking to the different writers. There is never any lingering
too long on a question, like they get in and
out of the questions and the interviews. They don't really
dive too deeply in thought depending on the person, because
some people are more long winded than others. And you know,
(21:37):
I mean there are fourteen writers featured in the book's
only two hundred pages long, so you know there aren't
manifestos the writers. They talk about what they're working on,
they talk about how they portray black people in their work,
and they talk about their process of writing. And it's
the peak behind the curtain that you get when you
read the book.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So does any one question and answer stand out to
you from the book?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I like Maya Angelou's interview and the book. And there's
a point when Claudia Tate asks her about all of
the different things that she does, and she's asking her
about what the source of such creative diversity is and
this kind of question I like, and it's something I
think about a lot with not just writers, but all
(22:25):
kinds of women in history, Like I'm often researching women
in history, and this is a question I think about
a lot. And I'm honestly motivated and inspired by when
I hear other people talk about how they balance all
of the other things that they do in their life,
because sometimes I just want to do stuff, and sometimes
I feel like, you know, there's not enough time for everything,
(22:47):
or I need to focus on one thing. But I
think keeping in mind or keeping top of mind the
idea of experimentation and always being open to being bad
at things trying new things is something helpful for me
to keep in mind as a writer for the content
of my writing work and for the craft of it.
But just like how I choose to move in life
(23:09):
with all parts of my creativity in my personal life
and profession. So Angelou talks about it, and she says,
I don't do the dancing anymore, the rest I try.
I believe talent is like electricity. We don't understand electricity,
we use it. And then she goes on to say
that it makes no judgment and she talks a little
(23:30):
bit more about talent. So there are other parts of
the book that I enjoy, but sometimes some things just
snap for me, like they just click. And I think
electricity is a good metaphor for me to be able
to kind of parse that in my mind. Although some
of the questions around talent I think deserve a little
bit more talking about because it's such a nebulous thing,
(23:55):
like talent, where does it come from? Is it something
you're born with? And all of that, What can you
grow in your life? What can you work on? What's
the peak of whatever you're going to do? And all
that subjective any life. But I liked that part.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Were there any interviews where you're like, I ain't picking
out what you're putting down?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah, there were for me Nikki Giovanni's So yeah, I
really respect and admire Nikki Giovanni, but I think her
you know, different people resonate with you in different ways,
and for me, and this was also a long time ago,
like this was written in the eighties, I think, so
I really felt like there were a lot of let's
(24:32):
just say, there were a lot of long paragraphs in
her interview. There was a lot of poetry in her
as would make sense in her interview, and I think
sometimes to me it felt a little like instead of like,
I'm trying to help you as a black woman writer,
to other black women writers who don't really know what
they're doing, or who have a lot of growth to do,
who don't have the statue that I do, you know,
(24:54):
who don't have the experience and knowledge that I do.
You know, I was kind of hoping to be talked
to like that, and I didn't feel like I was
necessarily talked to like that in her interview. It felt
more like I've been doing this for a long time,
and why are you not doing it this way? Like
it felt a little judgmental or like speak downy to
me in some.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Ways, Okay, I feel like you have to back it up, okay.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So I think it's interesting because the writers are talking
to the audience, like the people that will be reading
the book, but they're also talking to Claudia Tate. So
it's interesting to see the different dynamics between the writer
that Claudia Tate's interviewing and Tate herself. And so I
think in this instance, I was jarred by the relationship
(25:36):
between or the banter between Nicki Giovanni and Claudia Tate,
like it felt like there was a little bit of
friction there to me, because Niki Giovanni comes in hot,
in my opinion, she immediately starts questioning her questions. Is
what it feels like?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
And so the first question that is in the interview
in the book is Claudia Tate asks, the black revolutionary
fervor of the sixties seems to be gone. We no
longer even hear the rhetoric. Does this suggest that the
revolution is over? So this book's in the eighties, it's
about two decades after the sixties. They've gone through the seventies.
(26:13):
That was a huge cultural shift. The eighties. The whole
decade was a little weird in general. But so that's
the question. And then Nikki Giovanni immediately comes back and says,
I bought three new windows for my mother's basement. Have
you ever bought windows for your mother's basement? It's revolutionary,
it really is. And then she's like, I have a
problem I think I should share with you. For the
(26:33):
most part, this question is boring. And then she goes
on a takedown and I'm like, okay, like fair like
she goes on to talk about how she says everybody
looks at a phenomenon as if it were finished, Like
I get it, Like come on, now, you know we
move in different ways in different decades, Like everybody looks back.
When you're looking at something in hindsight, then it could
(26:54):
seem so large and like we're not doing the right
thing anymore. Things have changed so much all of that,
But I have to say that I was like, I
might need to put this interview down when I kept
reading it and she kept calling things boring. She was like, yeah,
that bores me. I'm bored by that. And there were
a lot of moments like that in this interview where
she kind of really pushed back against Claudia Tate's questions
(27:15):
in ways I think may have been a little bit
too much and not productive for something where you're trying
to help other writers learn things. And I bump up
against the word boring too, because it takes conditions to
consider something boring, because you have to think about, like
what is something that excites you? Or like what is
(27:37):
it about something that makes you bored about it? Like
I don't want to get too philosophical about it, but
bored is not something that I just was expecting to
see come up so much in the interview that she
did with her and her responses to her, so I
was just like, Okay, well that's cool. So yeah, I
think there were moments like that, and that's what I
(27:59):
was bumping up against in her interview, and that was
so different than all of the relationships, the rapport that
have been formed in the interviews that came before it.
So once I got to that one, I was like, Oh, like,
I'm getting to see Nikki Giovanni in this way that
I've never seen before in you know, other spaces.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
So reading this book, how did you feel as a writer?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I felt pretty inadequate in a lot of ways. And
I felt that a little bit after reading Nikki Giovanni
because I was like, Oh, she's a really good writer
and she's saying all this, and I feel a little bad.
But I felt like inspired and also inadequate at the
same time. So I felt inspired because of the terms
(28:45):
of phrase. Usually that's what gets me to connect to something,
even if it's a concept I may have explored or
thought about before. So if it's like a process of writing,
then somebody just has a different turn of phrase and
I connect with it. Then I'm like, oh, that makes sense,
and I think that's inspiring and that makes me feel like, Okay,
I'm a writer and I understand the language of being
(29:05):
a writer. I know they're not parameters around that necessarily,
but I'm just saying, like, for my own confidence and
for how I choose to like uplift myself and considering
myself a writer, I get to see these terms of
phrase and be like, oh, I understand that that's something
that I'm like, Okay, so yeah, I write I've been
doing this and I understand that language because I've actually
(29:28):
cared about my work and like been in the work.
As much as I can have doubts around like me
being an actual writer. Sometimes I have to reel myself
back in and remind myself that I actually do do
the work and I still love it. So I think
that was one thing that's inspirational to me. And on
the other hand, it felt like I felt inadequate in
(29:50):
some moments because these people are names that I can say,
and they feel like really large names because they have
really prolific bodies of work. Like sometimes I'll be like,
over the last ten years I wrote fourteen novels. I'm like, dang,
I ain't do that. And I've been writing for ten years.
(30:10):
So in moments like that, I feel like I'm playing, Like, oh,
maybe I feel like I could be there if I
had moved differently, and maybe if I had been, you know,
working on novels from ten years ago, I could have
fourteen right now too. So in moments like that, when
I start to compare myself to where they are, especially
(30:32):
this being back in the eighties, then I can start
to feel inadequate. And another thing too, going back to
the inspiration, is that when people talk about process, then
it's helpful for me to not compare myself to other people,
because you know, some people's process is, girl, I wake
up at two am every day, I write for three hours,
(30:54):
I drink sixteen ounces of water, and then I go
and I pay cut my children or I take my
children to sign. Yeah. So people have these really regimented
schedules of how they write, and also like not to
(31:15):
not consider the context around that, because oftentimes they were
writing and that's all they were doing, and they were
already set up at the points they were talking about writing.
So those things make me feel inadequate. But on the
other hand, back to the inspiration, there were moments where
I can't remember who it was, but one of the
writers said, I don't plan, I don't outline, and I
typically don't care to outline too heavily. I know that's
(31:36):
the thing that different writers talk about, is different in
their process. But I have been trying outlining lately, and
I've been doing some heavy outlining lately, a lot of
it for other people. But I'm experiencing that in a
very full and total way and realizing. I was always like, oh,
maybe I should try this, Oh maybe I should be
the type of person to do this, I could be
more organized, and I realized, like, it's just probably not
(31:56):
for me. You know, I can do it for other people,
but why I want to do it for myself? Probably not.
And so when I see people in the book saying
I don't do that, then it makes me feel better
about my own work and more inspired to move forward
in whatever way that I choose to.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
So has the book changed your process in any way
or you're like, oh, I want to take this from
it and try this out or moving forward. This is
the type of writer that I'm going to be Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I think I want to be better about studying the
writers that I love and finding more writers that I
love and that I want to emulate, because that's been
something that's always been hard for me. I don't know why,
because I love reading, but for some reason, I can
never say, like, if somebody asked me, who's your favorite writer,
I can't answer it, or like, who is you know
(32:46):
someone who you want to write like, I'm like, I
don't know. That's the hardest question in the world for me.
All those questions are always hard kinds of questions for me.
I tell myself, like, I really want to find that,
not like I feel like it's necessary to be a
great writer, but I think it's a beautiful thing to
have someone that you can turn to when you're writing,
(33:06):
that can feel like they are your kind of like
support system in a way, to be like, yeah, this
person did it this way, this is how they moved,
this is what they wrote about, this is what they
cared about. And someone in the book set, you know,
study other people, and I would extend that to, you know,
study people who specifically and find people and study people
(33:30):
who I would like to emulate. Take what I want
from it and then leave the rest.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah. Yeah, that's good advice.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
So we're looking back at our reading and writing goals.
What are your upcoming reading and writing goals?
Speaker 1 (33:48):
So right now, I really want to move into more
spiritual reading. Sometimes I do spiritual reading like philosophical reading
and some self help sometimes and sometimes it's spiritual mixed
with science. I have a lot of spiritual books that
I would like to get to and I think that
I really that would be really edifying for me in
(34:09):
my life right now. So that is a reading goal
for me right now. So, like I said, I would
really like to delve more into the fiction and I
need to hold myself to it. The next novel that
I'm reading is The Woods All Black by Lee Mandelo,
and it's like a historical horror and set in Appalachia
(34:33):
and about trans romance. So I'm looking forward to reading
and I think it came out earlier this year.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Okay, by your writing.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Okay, So I am getting back into my novel is
really what the goal is right now, and doing that
really heavily, I think now I'll be able to create
a little bit more balance in that so that I
have this space to work on it, like I really
want to. So for writing, that is like my utmost goal.
(35:06):
I have those short stories still in like I have
a lot. I have different ones that I'm working on,
So I think when I'm uninspired to write the novel,
I'll keep working on those short stories. But I don't
want to start a new one because that's how I
get caught up. I will start a new short story
before working on my book. So that's what I have
for writing goals. So what about you for your reading
(35:26):
and writing goals?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Reading, I think I want to read some autobiographies, be
like desk Tracked on the road my angela, Yeah, it's
like five or six. Yeah, she's like, y'all go no,
me right. So I think that's what I want to
focus on for the rest of the year, autobiographies of
(35:49):
not just writers but even activists. And for writing, I
feel like my true answer is just to like write people,
and I think that is what that I'll actually do.
I don't know if I should keep saying I want
to write these short stories when I know I'm not
going to. Yeah, but yeah, like writing letters and cards
(36:10):
to people is my writing goal. And now it's time
for Roll Credits, the segment where we give credit to
a person, place, or thing we've encountered during the week eves.
Who or what would you like to give credit to.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
I would like to give credit to ice water because
I usually don't drink ice water. I'm a hot water,
room temperature water kind of person. When I can get
hot water, then I choose hot water. But you know,
ice water just come in handy. Sometimes sometimes it just hits.
It's crispy, and it goes right to your soul. So
I want to give credit to ice water today.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
You can feel it going day.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, I'd like.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
To give credit to people who keep their Christmas lights
on well past January. You know who says they are
Christmas lights?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
First of all the evangelical.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
They're just lights on the house, So what if they're
in the shape of a Christmas tree. But yeah, I'm
just like, y'all do not care, and I can appreciate that.
You also clearly don't have HOA and you're smart for
being a neighborhood that don't have h away. So credit
to y'all.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
So you don't buy into the superstition that it's bad
luck to keep your Christmas lights up. Because isn't that
a thing. I never heard of that. What is it?
I think it's just bad luck to keep your Christmas
lights up past and once the New yeark starts.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
And what was it?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
New year starts?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
That's not quick.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I might be wrong. I get it down quick. I
might be wrong. It could be totally wrong, because I
guess New Year's is a thing too, so maybe past
New Year's Day. I don't know. They're all just lights. Yeah,
who says they're Christmas? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:45):
I ain't heard that one. But I don't know. I
can see people saying that it's like the old interview
or something. But you know, anyway, see y'all next week.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Bye. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather
Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and
Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also
(38:15):
send us an email at hello at on Theme dot show.
Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the
show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Friends Media. You are the start.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You remember the beginning of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
It feels like it's been years since the beginning of
twenty twenty four. What exactly are you remembering?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I was thinking about us talking about what stories we
were looking for to consuming and creating. I said, I
wanted to read more nonfiction classics, finish my book, and
write short stories. So thinking about like the new year
and things we want to see in the future, I
am thinking about like what stories I want to read, watch,
(00:52):
listen to, and just like what I'm going to be
on the lookout for.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Oh yeah, I remember that, And I said I wanted
to read more folk tales and write more about nature
and the environment. So some of the things that I
want to explore in the new year are stories that
are centered around local and regional folklore. And that's because
I do like fantasy. I like being in imagined worlds.
I like world building in certain ways, but things that
(01:21):
have really rich characters in them. And I feel like
there's so much that I want to learn about the
world and the people in the world.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I thought it's time of checking on our goals, share
our progress and what we've been writing, and give reviews
on our latest frees. Okay, let's do it. I'm Eves
and I'm Katie. Today's episode, Same year news stories, So
(01:54):
let's hear an update on the writing front.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
The writing front is stressful because I feel like I'm
never doing enough for myself. I haven't been writing as
much environmental and horror fiction and fiction or it just
works in general about nature as I wanted to. I've
been able to work on some updates on some old
stories that I was putting together. I've also been able
(02:18):
to work a little bit on my book, but a
lot of my time has been taken up with writing
about history and writing about black people too. But yeah,
that's that's how my writing is going. But it's been
I will say I've gotten a lot of words out.
I've gotten a lot of words out, but were they
(02:40):
always the words that I really wanted to be putting
on the page in the moment?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So tell us more about your stories.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So I am working on a story that it has
a beginning and an ending. It's probably about I don't
know three hundred three thousand words right now, but I've
been working on it, but it just needs something else.
It's about the game of knocking on doors and running
(03:08):
with a group of black kids, and it ends up
in this kind of like fantastical place that they find
themselves in in this dilapidated building, and there is a
group of adults that they meet and they're not really
sure what's going on. But I really don't like the
ending right now, like something needs to be refined in it.
(03:29):
In the story, I'm thinking about abandonment, like I'm thinking
about like having a close knit group of friends as
a black child in the South. Specifically, I'm thinking about
what it means to show up for children in a way.
(03:50):
But I think some of my themes might shift as
I like figure out more where I want to go
with the story. But it definitely needs several more drafts.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I would say, how many of them are you said
you're updating it.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
It's one of those stories that I wrote probably like
a year ago and have been just like touching it
every now and then since then.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Do you know what you want to do with it?
Is it like you post it online? Are you? Is
it a part of a collection.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I've sent it out, but I still would like it
to be in a different place.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So explain to people what you mean when you say
sent it out to some places.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
When I say sent it out, I mean submitting it
to literary journals to be published in their pages.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Okay, Yeah, so you wanted to stand on its own Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
That's correct. Yea. I wanted to be its own story.
I've thought about expanding it for a minute. I thought
about turning it into like potentially like novel, but I
don't think I want to take it there. It felt
right as a story. Once I tried to start doing that,
I was like, nah, this is a story.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, some things are better short.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
And you said you're writing about history.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yes, and that is work that's not for myself, that's
for other people. But so, you know, one of those
obligation things. I mean, I'm not going to complain about.
I'm grateful to be able to write and get paid
for it. But I have been writing quite a bit
about history, about the civil rights movement, about civil rights leaders,
(05:12):
about leisure. Yeah. I've been doing some of that work,
and that's been taken up a lot of my time.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So in this writing process, have you learned anything?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah? So I think I've learned. Content wise, I've learned
some things. I feel like it's a never ending process,
but learning a lot about the craft of writing and
being able to hone in on a specific moment and
be able to really get people to step into a
moment and feel like they're there and be invested in
(05:42):
the motivations of the characters, and to build an arc
that is actually one that people want to follow. I
think a lot of the time I get lost in
all of the small details and I try to fit
in as many as possible, and I am unable to
(06:03):
see the whole for all of the small details a
lot of the time. And that it's like if I'm
on deadline or if I'm writing for somebody else and
there's the word limit me eves, it's probably gonna go over.
Like you know, that comes first, and then getting down
to the meat and potatoes and like making it something
that feels alive. I guess comes a little bit later,
(06:26):
which I guess is typical, but you know, just refine
that for myself. So what about you, Katie, What do
you have going on in writing land?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I have submitted my book, so the first draft and
the second draft are done, and I was looking back
at my book proposal and I really undersold what I
turned in. I was like, girl, you could have get
some about buddy. I undersold it. And I think it's
interesting because you can see like the the growth I
(06:58):
had and just knowledge. It was a lot of things
that I didn't know until I started researching it and
started talking to people, and it's like, oh, well, there's
no way this can't go in the book. But when
I proposed it, I just had no idea it existed.
So I think an exercise in like journalism that I'd
never had before.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
For real.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
It was a lot of research, a lot of talking
to people, and then like synthesizing that in a way
that would be interesting. And it's profiles of bookstores from
eighteen thirty six to twenty twenties, and so each profile
it's like, Okay, gotta say something different about this bookstore.
And I think black bookstores are always like put together, like, oh,
(07:37):
here's a list of fifty block bookstores. Here's a list
of these block bookstores support these block bookstores. So they're
kind of put all together in a group, and it's like,
what can I say that's interesting about each one? What's
something that's really funny that happened at these bookstores. What's
something that no newspaper, you know, no social media posts
has said about this bookstore. And I feel like I
was being like kind of selfish in that way. I
(07:58):
was like, I want all the details tell people. I'm like, well,
don't tell me all the other stuff you told people,
because I already read it when I was researching them.
It's like I want something new. And it's like talking
to people and they have like their stump speech, and
like I have it too when people talk to me
about stuff and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, what's really going on,
you know, like trying to break that down for them.
So that's been a lot. And also I learn is
(08:19):
that writing is I would say, like a tenth of it.
It's really editing. I have never edited something so much
like myself, not like having an editor. I'm like, I'm
going to edit this like three or four times before
the editor even sees it. And so like seeing how
that has progressed, and seeing just like all the tricks
to make something just interesting, Like you can be saying
(08:39):
giving people the same information, but if you're saying it
in a way that uses all these like rhetorical devices.
It's like way more fun to read. It was more
fun for me to write and like put my name on.
So that is what is going on with the book.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So as you've gone through that editing process, do you
feel like you've gotten more proud of your work.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I wouldn't say I'm a proud a person generally, so sure, Yeah,
I started at zero. Now we're here, and I have
not been writing short stories. I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Ahead and admit it.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I ain't right. I ain't reading one short story. It's
funny because I'll be having so many ideas for a
short story, like I have a collection, I have the
overall theme, I have each story in my head. They're
so funny. I'm like, I don't know, maybe they're just
for me to laugh at in my head until you
get them on the page. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I've never written fiction for real, and it's just something
that I I don't know. I'm just a real ass
beach for real, So I don't even know if I
can make it up for it.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
After the break, we'll get into what we're reading and
if we recommend you read it.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Too, stay with us.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So earlier this year, I said I wanted to read
more classic nonfiction, and I ain't gonna hold you. I
have not been doing that, but I have gotten into
classic fiction. Okay. As someone who's on book talk and bookstrogram,
it's easy to get swept up in all the new releases.
But there's definitely a lot of books that were published
way before I was born that I never got around
(10:22):
to reading. One of them being The Street by Anne Petrie.
Have you read it?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I think I started that book and didn't finish it. Oh,
you ain't like it.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It didn't hold your attention.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I want to say that I get distracted, but tell
me where.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Okay, So here's the synopsis. So the Street was published
in nineteen forty six, and it is among the earliest
novels published by a black American woman to receive national
critical acclaim in literary prestige. It's set in World War
two era black Harlem. So the Street is rough, and
the Street becomes a character itself. It's so present, But
(10:57):
I'm getting ahead of myself. The novel centers Luddy Johnson.
She's cute, she's hard working. She has an eight year
old son named bub An alcoholic father and a cheating
husband who she quickly leaves after she finds out that
he's using the money she sends back home from working
as a live in maid for white folks to shack
up with another woman, so she finds an apartment and
(11:17):
building in Harlem. The building isn't great. There's prostitution, folks fighting,
a creepy souper who becomes obsessed with Leuddy and assaults her.
She really is trying to make enough money to move
into a better neighborhood with bub. She tries out singing
in a nightclub, but the white man who owns the
building she's in has other plans for her, and she's
forced to stand up against all the bullshit that's been
thrown her way. When I finished this book, I was like, no,
(11:40):
not my gird.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Okay, yeah, I definitely don't say anything because I don't
want it to be spoiled. I'll probably read it.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Okay, no spoilers. But I really felt deeply for these
characters in particular. It felt like they were real and
I want to reach into the book and save them.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And that didn't make you want to write fiction.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
No, I it made me not want to because I'm like,
I can't do that. I don't have the range.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So when you were reading it, did you feel like
you were paying attention to the craft, like how she
was building from one moment to the next, or were you.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Just fully I was wrapped up in it. Yeah, I
was wrapped up in the story. I think there's sometimes
when I can do that, but I think I can
do that more with nonfiction. I see what you're doing there, Okay, Yeah,
I got it. I think maybe when I'm like listening
to like comedy specials, I can see what they're doing,
you know, with the callbacks and you know.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
That's a very specific example why comedy specials.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I don't know why I can see it, but I can.
I don't know because like comedy specials, they're presented as nonfiction.
They're not one hundred percent nonfiction but auto fiction. Yeah,
but I don't know. I was wrapped up in the story.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Okay, So tell me more about Letdy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I identified with her, like she understands like what she's
up against as far as you know, the economics of
it all, the sexism of it all. But she's like,
you know, I got my son, and I got to
make it work. Like she doesn't really mention her mom.
I think her mom died, and her dad ain't really
(13:11):
much help. He's like an okay guy. He'll like watch
the baby sometimes, but you know, he got his own
stuff going on. And then her husband's not helping her.
So she's like, you know, I gotta get it out
of the mud. I gotta do what I gotta do.
So you know i'd be getting out the mud. I'm
just like, oh God. But you can like really see
like she's really trying, like you know, like you you
(13:33):
be rooting for people. She was a central character and
then like all the people like she came in contact with,
you could see how they were like working towards her
betterment or like working against it, and unfortunately there are
more people working against it. And then so you identify
with her and you root it for her. But did
you feel like she was an unlikable character or a
likable one? No, she was likable. I feel like the
(13:53):
author made her likable, Like she wasn't a pushover, but
you could tell like she had good intentions for her
and her son, and she peeped when people were being weird,
and you know, she wasn't shy about you know, expressing that,
but yeah, she was liable to me.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Okay, So besides Luddy, who are some of the other
characters that you found compelling or that you really felt
aligned with? Aligned with?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
None of them, But there was a character. It was
a woman who lived in her same building. And the
way she's described is she'd just be sitting in her window,
like washing the street. She knows everything's gone on the street.
And she also was a madam, so she was pimping
out girls out of her apartment, which you would think
is like not that likable, like, but I still liked her,
(14:42):
you know.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Did she feel like a mother figure in there? Because
that's often how madams are portrayed.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
She was by her business, you know that she was
by her business. But there's, like I want to say,
like multiple situations in the book where women go to her.
Not women that she pimping out, but women who live
in the building go to her for help and she
helps them and she don't charge them, and she like
protects the women in the building, even the ones that
(15:09):
aren't living with her, and so she like helps out Letty,
she helps out another woman who's like being mistreated in
the building. So you know, even though she has her flaws.
I was like, I see what you're doing. Her name
is miss Hedges.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I think, So what were your expectations when you went
into the book?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
They're pretty neutral. It's an older book, and sometimes older
books like will have like outdated language or just like
situations that you really can't relate to as a twenty
first century guawl. So they're neutral. But I do like
books from around this time period too, So I read
(15:48):
like Passings or like around the time period, like the twenties,
So I do like books on that time period. Black
nol More set in that same time period or they're
about so I was like, okay, kind of neutral, just
like open and open mind. I know people have said
they really liked it. It was a classic. Some classics
don't be good, oh no, some don't be hidden. So
that was neutral.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So without spoiling it, what did you make of the
ending of the book?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Me, personally, I wouldn't have written that ending, okay, but
I think it was an appropriate ending.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
That did not sound like that was positive to me
because when you say appropriate, that sounds safe, and it
wasn't safe. Okay, it wasn't safe, but it was.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Like the ending I would have written would have been
like fantastical, like girl, does ding' happen? Like it's not
like the thing that would happen like something miraculous would
have had to go down from my endings happened.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Did it seem like other editors or the publisher might
have had their hand in the ending that was written.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
It's hard for me to say. I don't know what
her writing process was. And that was my first book
I've read from her. I know she has a couple
more that i'm that are on my list to read.
But I think looking back and how she set everything up,
it was probably gonna end that way.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Would you read it again?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I don't be reading books twice.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Oh yeah, I do know that about you. So I
know there is assault in the book. How did that
portrayal impact you as a reader.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It was like a very suspenseful scene. I am glad
that it wasn't like so graphic. It was physical assault,
but it was racistin so I'm like, oh, no, it's
gonna happen to my girl. No, no, no, like you know,
trying to race through to see what happens. And then
but in that scene you see like again the women
(17:35):
coming to another woman's aid, which I think is a
theme in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
So how do you feel like she was able to
build that suspense at the moment, Like, thinking back on it,
do you kind of see the moves that she did
to get there?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, I mean she foreshadowed that the person that was
going to assault her was like obsessed with her and
like creepy and just like leering, So you kind of like, Okay,
something's going to go down here. And they she always
talks about like how beautiful she is and shapely and
a good singer. She's just like truly the baddest bitch
on the street. Yeah, so you're like, okay, like if
(18:15):
someone just like doesn't respect, you know, another person's autonomy
like they would, she would be the person that they're like, Okay,
I'm going to take you. So she she did some
foreshadowing for sure. And the version that I read, Tyari
Jones wrote the intro, which I don't always like reading
intros by someone that's not the author, but I think
(18:35):
TYRII did a good job because she was talking about
like her experience reading it for the first time in
college at Spelman, and she put it in conversation with
other books that she read during that class and how
they portrayed women differently, and this book portrayed women more dynamically.
So I think she did like a good setup. She
gave some like all right, she's gonna get assalted, so
(18:57):
it wasn't like a shock. But yeah, I liked how
tire you did that. She did that, good job, Tire.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
So ultimately, would you recommend this book to someone else?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, I think anyone who like fiction, historical fiction, even
though it doesn't read us historical fiction, would like it.
I think if you like character studies plus good plot,
you would like it. And yeah, if you're like me
and trying to read more classics and not just be
on every Tuesday looking to see what new book is out,
this would be a good place to start. After the break,
(19:26):
we'll hear what Ease is reading.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
So I really enjoyed hearing you talk about The Street
by Anptree. You have recommended it, so now I will
move it up higher on my list. So yeah, I'm
excited for that, because, like I said, I do I
need some more fiction in my life. I'm not sure
if this sounds like the lightest book to bring in now,
(20:00):
but I'm looking forward to reading it because I already
know about Amptrie and like, you know, started it and
didn't finish it, so I'm going to go back to it.
But as to be expected, what I have been reading
is nonfiction, and I read Black women writers at work.
I read nonfiction, but I don't read I read craft sometimes.
(20:24):
And I think I actually kind of revising what I
said at the beginning of the year want to read
craft books more. I've actually enjoyed the craft books that
I have read. I think the thing with craft is
that it can really compound if you don't integrate it.
It's like you get all of this knowledge about craft,
you're like, Okay, Wow, that's a great technique or that's
a good tactic that I can use in writing. This
(20:46):
will really help me get my stuff together, and then
you know, you move on to the next craft book
and you're like, oh, that's a great idea, Like oh.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I need to implement it.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
You got to implement it. So yeah. But this book
was edited by Claudia Tate, and I I've never read
it before, so I figured now would be a fitting time.
It was published in nineteen eighty three and in the book,
Claudia Tate interviews a bunch of legendary writers, telling me Morrison,
Alice Walker, and Audrey Lower, just to name a few,
(21:14):
And it is exactly how it sounds like. Tait kind
of cycles through some of the same questions as she's
talking to the different writers. There is never any lingering
too long on a question, like they get in and
out of the questions and the interviews. They don't really
dive too deeply in thought depending on the person, because
some people are more long winded than others. And you know,
(21:37):
I mean there are fourteen writers featured in the book's
only two hundred pages long, so you know there aren't
manifestos the writers. They talk about what they're working on,
they talk about how they portray black people in their work,
and they talk about their process of writing. And it's
the peak behind the curtain that you get when you
read the book.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So does any one question and answer stand out to
you from the book?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I like Maya Angelou's interview and the book. And there's
a point when Claudia Tate asks her about all of
the different things that she does, and she's asking her
about what the source of such creative diversity is and
this kind of question I like, and it's something I
think about a lot with not just writers, but all
(22:25):
kinds of women in history, Like I'm often researching women
in history, and this is a question I think about
a lot. And I'm honestly motivated and inspired by when
I hear other people talk about how they balance all
of the other things that they do in their life,
because sometimes I just want to do stuff, and sometimes
I feel like, you know, there's not enough time for everything,
(22:47):
or I need to focus on one thing. But I
think keeping in mind or keeping top of mind the
idea of experimentation and always being open to being bad
at things trying new things is something helpful for me
to keep in mind as a writer for the content
of my writing work and for the craft of it.
But just like how I choose to move in life
(23:09):
with all parts of my creativity in my personal life
and profession. So Angelou talks about it, and she says,
I don't do the dancing anymore, the rest I try.
I believe talent is like electricity. We don't understand electricity,
we use it. And then she goes on to say
that it makes no judgment and she talks a little
(23:30):
bit more about talent. So there are other parts of
the book that I enjoy, but sometimes some things just
snap for me, like they just click. And I think
electricity is a good metaphor for me to be able
to kind of parse that in my mind. Although some
of the questions around talent I think deserve a little
bit more talking about because it's such a nebulous thing,
(23:55):
like talent, where does it come from? Is it something
you're born with? And all of that, What can you
grow in your life? What can you work on? What's
the peak of whatever you're going to do? And all
that subjective any life. But I liked that part.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Were there any interviews where you're like, I ain't picking
out what you're putting down?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah, there were for me Nikki Giovanni's So yeah, I
really respect and admire Nikki Giovanni, but I think her
you know, different people resonate with you in different ways,
and for me, and this was also a long time ago,
like this was written in the eighties, I think, so
I really felt like there were a lot of let's
(24:32):
just say, there were a lot of long paragraphs in
her interview. There was a lot of poetry in her
as would make sense in her interview, and I think
sometimes to me it felt a little like instead of like,
I'm trying to help you as a black woman writer,
to other black women writers who don't really know what
they're doing, or who have a lot of growth to do,
who don't have the statue that I do, you know,
(24:54):
who don't have the experience and knowledge that I do.
You know, I was kind of hoping to be talked
to like that, and I didn't feel like I was
necessarily talked to like that in her interview. It felt
more like I've been doing this for a long time,
and why are you not doing it this way? Like
it felt a little judgmental or like speak downy to
me in some.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Ways, Okay, I feel like you have to back it up, okay.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So I think it's interesting because the writers are talking
to the audience, like the people that will be reading
the book, but they're also talking to Claudia Tate. So
it's interesting to see the different dynamics between the writer
that Claudia Tate's interviewing and Tate herself. And so I
think in this instance, I was jarred by the relationship
(25:36):
between or the banter between Nicki Giovanni and Claudia Tate,
like it felt like there was a little bit of
friction there to me, because Niki Giovanni comes in hot,
in my opinion, she immediately starts questioning her questions. Is
what it feels like?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
And so the first question that is in the interview
in the book is Claudia Tate asks, the black revolutionary
fervor of the sixties seems to be gone. We no
longer even hear the rhetoric. Does this suggest that the
revolution is over? So this book's in the eighties, it's
about two decades after the sixties. They've gone through the seventies.
(26:13):
That was a huge cultural shift. The eighties. The whole
decade was a little weird in general. But so that's
the question. And then Nikki Giovanni immediately comes back and says,
I bought three new windows for my mother's basement. Have
you ever bought windows for your mother's basement? It's revolutionary,
it really is. And then she's like, I have a
problem I think I should share with you. For the
(26:33):
most part, this question is boring. And then she goes
on a takedown and I'm like, okay, like fair like
she goes on to talk about how she says everybody
looks at a phenomenon as if it were finished, Like
I get it, Like come on, now, you know we
move in different ways in different decades, Like everybody looks back.
When you're looking at something in hindsight, then it could
(26:54):
seem so large and like we're not doing the right
thing anymore. Things have changed so much all of that,
But I have to say that I was like, I
might need to put this interview down when I kept
reading it and she kept calling things boring. She was like, yeah,
that bores me. I'm bored by that. And there were
a lot of moments like that in this interview where
she kind of really pushed back against Claudia Tate's questions
(27:15):
in ways I think may have been a little bit
too much and not productive for something where you're trying
to help other writers learn things. And I bump up
against the word boring too, because it takes conditions to
consider something boring, because you have to think about, like
what is something that excites you? Or like what is
(27:37):
it about something that makes you bored about it? Like
I don't want to get too philosophical about it, but
bored is not something that I just was expecting to
see come up so much in the interview that she
did with her and her responses to her, so I
was just like, Okay, well that's cool. So yeah, I
think there were moments like that, and that's what I
(27:59):
was bumping up against in her interview, and that was
so different than all of the relationships, the rapport that
have been formed in the interviews that came before it.
So once I got to that one, I was like, Oh, like,
I'm getting to see Nikki Giovanni in this way that
I've never seen before in you know, other spaces.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
So reading this book, how did you feel as a writer?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I felt pretty inadequate in a lot of ways. And
I felt that a little bit after reading Nikki Giovanni
because I was like, Oh, she's a really good writer
and she's saying all this, and I feel a little bad.
But I felt like inspired and also inadequate at the
same time. So I felt inspired because of the terms
(28:45):
of phrase. Usually that's what gets me to connect to something,
even if it's a concept I may have explored or
thought about before. So if it's like a process of writing,
then somebody just has a different turn of phrase and
I connect with it. Then I'm like, oh, that makes sense,
and I think that's inspiring and that makes me feel like, Okay,
I'm a writer and I understand the language of being
(29:05):
a writer. I know they're not parameters around that necessarily,
but I'm just saying, like, for my own confidence and
for how I choose to like uplift myself and considering
myself a writer, I get to see these terms of
phrase and be like, oh, I understand that that's something
that I'm like, Okay, so yeah, I write I've been
doing this and I understand that language because I've actually
(29:28):
cared about my work and like been in the work.
As much as I can have doubts around like me
being an actual writer. Sometimes I have to reel myself
back in and remind myself that I actually do do
the work and I still love it. So I think
that was one thing that's inspirational to me. And on
the other hand, it felt like I felt inadequate in
(29:50):
some moments because these people are names that I can say,
and they feel like really large names because they have
really prolific bodies of work. Like sometimes I'll be like,
over the last ten years I wrote fourteen novels. I'm like, dang,
I ain't do that. And I've been writing for ten years.
(30:10):
So in moments like that, I feel like I'm playing, Like, oh,
maybe I feel like I could be there if I
had moved differently, and maybe if I had been, you know,
working on novels from ten years ago, I could have
fourteen right now too. So in moments like that, when
I start to compare myself to where they are, especially
(30:32):
this being back in the eighties, then I can start
to feel inadequate. And another thing too, going back to
the inspiration, is that when people talk about process, then
it's helpful for me to not compare myself to other people,
because you know, some people's process is, girl, I wake
up at two am every day, I write for three hours,
(30:54):
I drink sixteen ounces of water, and then I go
and I pay cut my children or I take my
children to sign. Yeah. So people have these really regimented
schedules of how they write, and also like not to
(31:15):
not consider the context around that, because oftentimes they were
writing and that's all they were doing, and they were
already set up at the points they were talking about writing.
So those things make me feel inadequate. But on the
other hand, back to the inspiration, there were moments where
I can't remember who it was, but one of the
writers said, I don't plan, I don't outline, and I
typically don't care to outline too heavily. I know that's
(31:36):
the thing that different writers talk about, is different in
their process. But I have been trying outlining lately, and
I've been doing some heavy outlining lately, a lot of
it for other people. But I'm experiencing that in a
very full and total way and realizing. I was always like, oh,
maybe I should try this, Oh maybe I should be
the type of person to do this, I could be
more organized, and I realized, like, it's just probably not
(31:56):
for me. You know, I can do it for other people,
but why I want to do it for myself? Probably not.
And so when I see people in the book saying
I don't do that, then it makes me feel better
about my own work and more inspired to move forward
in whatever way that I choose to.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
So has the book changed your process in any way
or you're like, oh, I want to take this from
it and try this out or moving forward. This is
the type of writer that I'm going to be Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I think I want to be better about studying the
writers that I love and finding more writers that I
love and that I want to emulate, because that's been
something that's always been hard for me. I don't know why,
because I love reading, but for some reason, I can
never say, like, if somebody asked me, who's your favorite writer,
I can't answer it, or like, who is you know
(32:46):
someone who you want to write like, I'm like, I
don't know. That's the hardest question in the world for me.
All those questions are always hard kinds of questions for me.
I tell myself, like, I really want to find that,
not like I feel like it's necessary to be a
great writer, but I think it's a beautiful thing to
have someone that you can turn to when you're writing,
(33:06):
that can feel like they are your kind of like
support system in a way, to be like, yeah, this
person did it this way, this is how they moved,
this is what they wrote about, this is what they
cared about. And someone in the book set, you know,
study other people, and I would extend that to, you know,
study people who specifically and find people and study people
(33:30):
who I would like to emulate. Take what I want
from it and then leave the rest.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah. Yeah, that's good advice.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
So we're looking back at our reading and writing goals.
What are your upcoming reading and writing goals?
Speaker 1 (33:48):
So right now, I really want to move into more
spiritual reading. Sometimes I do spiritual reading like philosophical reading
and some self help sometimes and sometimes it's spiritual mixed
with science. I have a lot of spiritual books that
I would like to get to and I think that
I really that would be really edifying for me in
(34:09):
my life right now. So that is a reading goal
for me right now. So, like I said, I would
really like to delve more into the fiction and I
need to hold myself to it. The next novel that
I'm reading is The Woods All Black by Lee Mandelo,
and it's like a historical horror and set in Appalachia
(34:33):
and about trans romance. So I'm looking forward to reading
and I think it came out earlier this year.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Okay, by your writing.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Okay, So I am getting back into my novel is
really what the goal is right now, and doing that
really heavily, I think now I'll be able to create
a little bit more balance in that so that I
have this space to work on it, like I really
want to. So for writing, that is like my utmost goal.
(35:06):
I have those short stories still in like I have
a lot. I have different ones that I'm working on,
So I think when I'm uninspired to write the novel,
I'll keep working on those short stories. But I don't
want to start a new one because that's how I
get caught up. I will start a new short story
before working on my book. So that's what I have
for writing goals. So what about you for your reading
(35:26):
and writing goals?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Reading, I think I want to read some autobiographies, be
like desk Tracked on the road my angela, Yeah, it's
like five or six. Yeah, she's like, y'all go no,
me right. So I think that's what I want to
focus on for the rest of the year, autobiographies of
(35:49):
not just writers but even activists. And for writing, I
feel like my true answer is just to like write people,
and I think that is what that I'll actually do.
I don't know if I should keep saying I want
to write these short stories when I know I'm not
going to. Yeah, but yeah, like writing letters and cards
(36:10):
to people is my writing goal. And now it's time
for Roll Credits, the segment where we give credit to
a person, place, or thing we've encountered during the week eves.
Who or what would you like to give credit to.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
I would like to give credit to ice water because
I usually don't drink ice water. I'm a hot water,
room temperature water kind of person. When I can get
hot water, then I choose hot water. But you know,
ice water just come in handy. Sometimes sometimes it just hits.
It's crispy, and it goes right to your soul. So
I want to give credit to ice water today.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
You can feel it going day.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, I'd like.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
To give credit to people who keep their Christmas lights
on well past January. You know who says they are
Christmas lights?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
First of all the evangelical.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
They're just lights on the house, So what if they're
in the shape of a Christmas tree. But yeah, I'm
just like, y'all do not care, and I can appreciate that.
You also clearly don't have HOA and you're smart for
being a neighborhood that don't have h away. So credit
to y'all.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
So you don't buy into the superstition that it's bad
luck to keep your Christmas lights up. Because isn't that
a thing. I never heard of that. What is it?
I think it's just bad luck to keep your Christmas
lights up past and once the New yeark starts.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
And what was it?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
New year starts?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
That's not quick.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I might be wrong. I get it down quick. I
might be wrong. It could be totally wrong, because I
guess New Year's is a thing too, so maybe past
New Year's Day. I don't know. They're all just lights. Yeah,
who says they're Christmas? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:45):
I ain't heard that one. But I don't know. I
can see people saying that it's like the old interview
or something. But you know, anyway, see y'all next week.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Bye. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather
Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and
Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also
(38:15):
send us an email at hello at on Theme dot show.
Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the
show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
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