December 10, 2021 • 37 mins
Ed talks with Vanderbilt University professor, Michael Eric Dyson. They discuss Dyson’s latest book, Entertaining Race; Performing Blackness in America. They also take on topics including: Black America taking on new narratives for the fight for equality, white privilege, toxic masculinity and the emotional toll race duality takes on people of color.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast. Today a conversation with Michael Eric Dyson. The
Vanderbilt University professor has always had his finger on the
pulse of culture. His latest book, Entertaining Race, Performing Blackness
in America, is a collection of his essays and speeches
(00:43):
that have dealt with the rolls blacks must play in
every aspect of their lives. Mike, you like, I am
a lover of music, and when I took a look
at the book and the title, I fought back to
we were kids when this came out. You remember the
R and B groupe, the Fantastic Four. They had a
small called the Whole World is a stage. Everybody plays
(01:07):
a part, and and in a way, that's exactly what
you're talking about in this book. Absolutely right. I mean
the Fantastic Four echoing Shakespeare all the world, our players
upon it, right, So we we were getting gut bucket
and grassroots Shakespeare through our music. Man. Uh, it's such
(01:28):
a fascinating fashion. But you're absolutely right. That's what I'm arguing.
I'm arguing that time on this shore, black people were
forced to entertain white America. That's just what it was,
on slave ships, on plantations, uh, in stages of many makings.
And then we've been forced to entertain the idea of race.
(01:50):
You know, we're we're out in the park, just trying
to have some barbecue and open. We gotta deal with race,
trying to sell some water on the street with our kids,
race lemonade, on this red race going into you know,
a coffee shop, in Starbucks. Race. Uh, in school, race
and the politics race and the white house race, race,
(02:11):
white brothers and sisters and others of a certain mindset.
You black people are obsessed with race. No, we can't
escape it because you always reminded us what time it is.
And so we don't want to escape our blackness. We
want to escape the racial limits you impose on it.
We love being black, but in in the eyes of distortion,
(02:31):
that doesn't seem to satisfy those who have a negative,
stereotypical vision of who we are. And then, thirdly, we've
got to find entertaining ways to speak about race. You know,
oh my god, hear you people get come with the
same old thing. So your book was a set of
investigative interviews with human beings trying to tap you know,
(02:54):
the source of racial animous blackness in this country. You
have to find an interesting, innovative and entertaining way to
come at the same old thing we've been trying to
talk about, you know forever. It's like that that that
preacher in the in the church when people say you're
just preaching the same old servant, he said, you commit
the same old sen So when you finished committing the
(03:15):
same old saying, I got a different term in to preach.
So that's what I meant. And you're right. We're constantly
being asked to perform. We're constantly performing. Uh. We're engaging
in all kinds of activities and gestures that that communicate
our identities and our desires. Martin for King Jr. Was
(03:35):
a great performer. I mean, don't don't sleep on the
fact that, as you know, down in Birmingham, Alabama, he
and Fred Shuttle's Worth and Andrew Young and a whole
bunch of other uh snic activists, men and women figured
out if this buffoonish um you know, dictatorial Commissioner of
Public Safety named Bull Connor, can be lured into exposing
(04:01):
and revealing the the the the nastiness, the viciousness, and
the barbarism with which he treats black people. We can
make some progress here. What happens. Water hoses are unleashed
dogs are you know, unleashed on black men and women
and children. And during their dinner, many white folks were
(04:25):
looking at this, going this is unacceptable. So King was
a performer of social justice the same way John Lewis
w was than Diane Nash and Septr mcclark. So we're
constantly performing Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Anita Baker, Aretha Franklin,
Ed Gordon, Michael, Eric Dyson, the average black person out here.
(04:46):
Let me touch your hair? Is that your real paper?
Did you really write that? Constantly performing levels and degrees
of blackness? Uh? For for ourselves and for the broader world.
Here's the interesting part when I thought about this, and
you and I have discussed this for decades now, quite frankly, Mike,
(05:06):
But what is also unique about us that white folk
don't have to deal with because we all have this
kind of facade we put on for the world. Right,
So the Ed Gordon that I give to the public,
there's that Ed Gordon. There's the Ed Gordon. My friend knows,
my friends know, and then there's the Ed Gordon that
only I know, right, and and maybe two or three
(05:29):
a handful of my closest people. Right. But we as
black people not only have to perform for white people.
We find ourselves in many corners performing for ourselves our race.
How much more tiring is that? And that we often
don't have a safe haven anywhere we wear the mask?
(05:52):
Paul Lawrence Dunbar said, Mike, God, when can we put
it off? When can we stop? When can we you know, stop? Yes, man, no, sir,
when can we even among our with our children? Don't
want to see him? I'm a Gordon. I can't let
my kids see me vulnerable. You know, I'm Michael Dyson.
I can't. I can't. I got to stand up. I
(06:12):
got to be a man. I got to be a woman.
I got to, you know, be a leader. I've got
to show that I'm impervious to these insults. Right and then,
and then you have to be either blacker or less black,
depending on your audience. How do I calm it down?
How do I curb it? How do I shape it?
(06:34):
How do I get over the white folk? How do
I tell jokes to make them feel it? Ease so
that they won't be upset. How do I get on
the elevator knowing the white woman is looking at me, thinking,
oh my god, is my life going to end? How
do I talk about it when people cross the street,
when they see me. How do I talk to my
kids about you know, the police? I mean, the performance
of blackness is down there, infinite, and as you said,
(06:57):
it's excruciating, and it's not just to the dominant cultures,
to ourselves, it's among ourselves. It's between ourselves, the politics
of respectability. How can I expose who I am? How
can I you know, drawing back in, how does some
people say I'm keeping it real and perform a kind
of you know, blackness that they think is real? And
yet what has it been informed by? You know? Why
(07:18):
is it the young Dolph is getting killed? Why is
it that they're beefing in the hip hop? Why is
it that the display of toxic masculinity becomes a trope
of authenticity and in art form that is ostensibly about
the blackest realities? We confront the contradictions, the conflicts, trying
to act as if you were something that you're not.
(07:39):
I was looking the other day at the at the
interview that you conducted with Shuge Night, Michael Eric Dayson
dand Yale Smith and Kevin Poe. Wow, I mean, I mean,
what what a moment of multiple levels of performance. We
were talking about a guy who essentially had to form
(08:00):
a level of authenticity when he was interested in white
rock music and chilling with his girlfriend and discussing his
acting abilities and his wide reading in the history of
photography Tupac. But he's got to perform the hardcore FuG Now.
I'm not saying that that performance is any less authentic
(08:23):
than the performance of his other elements, but one dominates
the other. But the night that you did the interview
with us and Shook Night and Kevin Powell and Daniel Smith,
and you had to step in and be a policeman
essentially to say there are certain rules and respect that
should be shown here. And you were courageous and asserting
(08:46):
that necessity. And then we look at young Dolphin, We
look at you know, all these young men who are dying,
you know, and I get hit up by famous entertainers
going dot, what can we do? You gotta you gotta
help us stop this? And on the one hand, I
fight about this all the time. I defend young black people.
I write about hip hop, I say that black on
black prime is not a thing. It's it's neighbor to
(09:07):
neighbor carnage. You kill where you live. Poor white people
kill poor white people. Right. Ninety three percent of black
people who are killed are killed by black people. Eighty
four percent of white people who are killed are killed
by white people. So we know that's true. Having said that,
it is, it is. It is damaging, it is traumatic.
It is destructive for us uh to see black hands
(09:33):
killing black hearts and lives, wiping and out wiping us, out,
murdering us for whatever the reason is, for whatever the
situation and circumstances, and to see that carnage and to
celebrate it, and to commercially benefit from black death, and
to circulate it as the basis of your existence. And
(09:55):
then when it happens, rat a tat tat never hesitate
to put a brother on his fact. And here we
are death charges, death dealing, death, fear finality brought to
us as a right of passage of black masculinity. This
is toxic. When we talk about toxic masculinity, that may
(10:15):
be among the most toxic that ain't usually what people
talking about, but that's what it is. Or beating up
on a young lady. You're a football player with struggling
with certain mental issues. Now we know, I admit, the
white boy who did the same thing didn't come out
of the same uh scrutiny. I get it. It's wrong.
We should correct it. However, nobody should be hitting on
a woman like that, and nobody should be beating on
(10:38):
a woman like that, And the price to be paid
is pretty steep and should be in terms of both
cultural indictment and you know, being held to account in
a criminal justice system. But yet the people fighting against
the over incarceration of black men then look at the
deeds and gestures of certain aspects of black masculinity that
(11:00):
are out of control, that are out of bounds, and
what do you do? You got to figure out a
way to think about it. That's why the performance of
blackness is so critical. Who are we performing for? What
audience are we looking at? What ideals do we nurture?
And who do we hold to account and who do
we idolize as we as we make our way through
(11:22):
the world of performing the blackness that is our lives
here's what's interesting. And in the book, you you call
a number of your essays and speeches and you bring
some pub culture to uh to illustrate what you speak of.
But it's over decades, over years, and then you have
(11:43):
uh an introductory essay that kind of ties it all together,
or introduces it, if you will. But I'm curious like this,
as I describe as schizophrenia that Black America has been
having four decades, do you think that we are at
a point now, a breaking point? It seems to me
that the world is on edge. We know that it's
(12:04):
not just black folk. The world is on edge. But
I do think that we are now in such a
tenuous place, uh, perhaps more than I can remember in
in my lifetime. Uh, that I wonder what we have
to do now, because we can't go on like this.
Oh we can't. I mean, and you're so right. It's
(12:25):
jacked up for us, but it's jacked up for everybody America,
the nation, the world is jacked up. But the world
in which we live, it's so messed up. It reminds
me of that Jay Z line when he was talking
about um dealing with Crystal and the Crystal people didn't
like black people, and he's like, oh really, so let
me come up with my own thing, Asa spades. One
(12:46):
of the reasons jay Z is a billionaires because of
white supremacy. It forced him to do his own thing, right.
He says, they're bigger issues in the world I know,
but I first had to take care of the world
I know. Right, So the world that you know, I know,
there's bigger stuff, but this is the world I know,
and this is where we operate. So the bigger issues
(13:08):
in the world I know. But these issues that affect
us affect the world. What Martin Luther King Jr. What
Septum mcclark, What Joyne Robinson, what Fanny lou Hamer? What
Diane Nation understood? What affects us? Affects everybody. This is
the world in a nutshell. And if you so, if
you want to deny people the right to vote, it's
gonna affect more than black people. If you want to
treat mistreat human beings because you think that they don't
(13:31):
deserve a certain kind of education, it's kind of gonna
be quarantined the black people. It's gonna affect your people
as well. You think the violence that you celebrate when
black people are her harding or hurting and harming. Black
people will will say, uh, you know, quarantined to our community. No,
it creeps out to the suburbs as well. So we
are dealing with human issues in a way that need
(13:53):
to be talked about. But you know, when we look
at the big lie that's being told, when we look
at you know what hap and with Donald Trump, black
people tried to warn white folks. This is what happens
when you bow down before a fascist who tells lies,
who makes stuff up. Oh if it's just you black people,
all right, Oh no, January six, it's about all of
(14:15):
us were in this boat together, right. That was an
attack on America, not just black people. Although you're dragging
the Confederate flag through the halls of Congress, you are
showing that you are disloyal to the nation. What I've
never understood about wife folks mad at Colin Kaepernick, but
celebrating the Confederate effect. You celebrate to somebody who succeeded
(14:37):
from the nation. They didn't want to be part of
your group. They said what y'all was doing ain't something
we want to do. But you're mad at the guy
who bows down in reverence, takes a knee and says,
I want to show a respectful resistance to what I
perceived to be problems in our communities. And he's the
worst thing in the world. So what's interesting is that
(14:57):
we are facing a crisis of explan nation, of confidence,
of self respect, and understanding what the true goals of
American democracy are. And it's not just about black versus right.
It's about white. It's about right versus wrong and what
will uplift the nation and what will deepen us. So
(15:18):
the problems, the predicaments, the conflicts, the conversations that black
people have that you conducted in your book are about
the future of America. Not just the future of black people,
though that's critical. It's about the nature of truth in
a nation where Black people are warn from the very beginning.
When you tell lies about who we are, when you
(15:39):
stereotype us, when you make stuff up and say we're
stupid and dumb and unintelligent, don't work hard. Those were
lies equally as devastating as the lies now being told.
But since they were being told about white people on Marsque,
it was all right. Now they see what happens when
a white guy. Donald Trump had him, Wait a minute,
you called Mexicans rapists, all right, you call black people
(16:00):
should okay, okay, But now you're talking about us too.
Now you're beating up on fellow Republicans. Oh my god,
the carnage and consternation. This was wrong. It was wrong
when he was doing it to black people and brown
people and Mexicans and the like. So many white brothers
and sisters, like many of us don't get moved until
it happens to us, our community, our people, our tribes.
(16:23):
And as a result of that, blackness is a gateway
into an American identity that all of us have to
grapple with. And the and the problems we're grappling was
now the failure of American citizen read to believe in
its government, the failure of the government to be able
to deliver critical resources at a time of crisis to
vulnerable populations. The suspicion of politicians that we believe are
(16:49):
inherently liars, and the inability of any side of the
aisle to come to grips with the other side. Now,
I happen to believe one side is more responsible, But
at the end of the day, we got two people
who are conservative Democrats named Cinema and Mansion, who are
broad blocking progress that could otherwise take place under a
(17:10):
Democratic president who has both the Senate, FT though and
UH the United States House of Representatives. So these complicated
issues are often vetted within our community but not seeing
in its value to the dominant world. You know, It's
like you and I when we went to Fox Theater,
when we went to movie theaters when we were kids
(17:31):
coming up in Detroit, we could go to a movie
theater and have at ain't no black people in the movie.
We cry, we're talking, we're moving, we're clapping. I don't
see no black people in Willards with the rats. Even
it wasn't even a black round in there. It wasn't
even a black rat. It was all white rats. But
we were like, oh my god, look at this. We
could see universality and whiteness. White people have to see
(17:55):
universality in our blackness and what we are and who
we are, and our of struggles are indeed American struggles.
When we come back black empathy, staring down the White
House and telling the truth even when it's painful. I
(18:36):
turned our conversation to finding new narratives in the fight
for justice. So there are actors who concern themselves about
being stereotyped, and they want to take on different roles.
How do we change the makeup? And I'll give you
the example I use. I keep hearing people say that
we've got to force things our way, We've got to
(18:58):
demand from Joe Biden because we were the difference in
him getting an office or being defeated. Yet I see
us doing the same things. I see legislation that we want,
not being put to the four Yet when they need
us for a photo op, here we are running to
(19:18):
the White House and taking that picture. You and I
have both had invitations to the White House. Let us
not fool ourselves. That's heavy stuff. But if you're going
to change this dynamic, you are then going to have
to start to do things you haven't done before. Turn
away that invitation to the you know, South Lawn, say
no to the Christmas party, say no until this is done.
(19:42):
Do you see that in the future or is the
human frailty going to stay up front? That's the hell
of a question. No, we ain't canceling the trips to
the White No, it's not gonna go down I'm gonna
go no. The point is no if that ain't happen.
(20:03):
But what we do harbor And the challenge to us
is when you're get in the room, what you're saying,
are you amen? And are you echoing what was going on?
Let me tell you what. Let me be transparent here.
So I had a meeting with President Biden along with
seven other renowned historians and allectuals and so on and
(20:24):
so forth. And he's a sweet guy. He's very empathetic
things I mean amazing, and he's genuine and trying to
figure out what to do. So that's the kind of
guy you can work with. You can go, uh, this
ain't it like right here? I just disagree with you
on that. I love your heart, I love what you're doing,
(20:46):
I love your ambition. You're the first president, including the
black one, to say that you old black people your future,
because that black person did not say that. The black
president didn't do that though, And and he's a nicer
guy than many of the other presidents have been nice sir,
Why does that make a difference, Because you're not arrogant,
(21:06):
you're not condescending, you're not presumptuous that you're the smartest
guy in the room, you know more about race or
politics or culture. What it was impressive to me about
Biden is he's talking to scholars in the area. But
he engaged each one of us after our presentation for
like fifteen minutes. Like we were thinking, all right, we'll
do our thing. He say, oh, you know, good, good,
good good. He's he's actually asking questions, raising questions because
(21:28):
he doesn't assume he's the smartest guy in the room.
He doesn't assume he already knows it. Maybe a black
president thought the black president knew more about race than
you did. Really, because did you did you make that
a area was study? I know you black, I know
you studied a lot of this stuff, but that on
you you are know African American studies made down't there?
I think you were doing law and constitution. That's great.
(21:50):
But dog, just because you black, don't mean you know black. Now,
this guy, the first black president, knew a lot could
teach black studies. But when you when you have that
kind of presumption, you may not be as open to
different viewpoints about issues of race that others have delved
deeply into and that they weren't condescended in the same fashion.
(22:10):
So at least with Joe Biden, you have an openness
to engage this issue. But you gotta have enough courage
to say I disagree with you. So I don't think
we should give up getting in the room. I think
we should take it upon ourselves that have a lot
more courage when we get up in there. Don't cheese
and take the picture. Only cheese and take the picture.
But also, you got grandkids, dog, you gotta show him
(22:33):
something what you've been doing, Papa. But you got to
you got to say what I did as I had
a conversation. Look at those conversations between Martin's and King
j lb J. He was nice. Yes, Mr President, that
has been a struggle here. But at the same time,
if we don't get this bill passed, we're not going
(22:55):
to be well now now now, Dr King uh you know,
so they ain't going back And for you, they on faith.
He on the he on the phone call, what the
president nice, respectful and the insist that that things changed.
Now Malcolm could never get no invitation, so he's gonna
he gonna come hard on the outside. Look at you,
(23:16):
Look at you. You've been bamboos, you've been hoodwing. Malcolm
never had access to that kind of power. So we
got to Malcolm standing on the outside talking about everybody
on the inside that might be legitimate, bringing pressure to
bear that might be legitimate, but you ain't gonna change
the law. Malcolm was great, but he changed perspective perceptions.
That was great. He changed perspectives, that was great, but
(23:37):
he didn't change practice in terms of law. What we
have to do is we have to make certain that
you that that we take the spirit of a Malcolm
to resist white supremacist seduction, but at the same time
hold to account and to the feat to the fire
(23:57):
of those that we admired, and that includes by a way,
not only Joe Biden, but Kamala Harris. That means that, look,
we appreciate you, we love you, we celebrate you. We
know what difficult position you're occupying, but I understand the
difficult positions of the people who put you in the office.
I can never acknowledge that what you face as the
first black president is more important than what black people
(24:18):
on the ordinary level face. I can never acknowledge that
you the first black first vice president and a white
man with tremendous um skill and compassion and empathy for
black book, you ain't facing a herder problem than the
average black person out here. So I can only cut
you so much slack. It's a tough job. Ain't nobody
force it on you. You ran for it. You said,
(24:40):
make me president, make me vice president. So at that level,
you knew what the job entailed, and you knew that
we have to hold you to account and where we
fell off, and let's be honest, if we're gonna be
brutally honest, we didn't do that with Obama. Andy that
we now we look and I ain't one of those
those that didn't understand what he was up against. You
gotta understand what the man was up against. Having said that,
(25:03):
that can't be no excuse, bro, that we know what
you're up against. And Obama was skillful and deploying, Hey,
this is what I'm up against against us. Right, he
go up more House College and beat us up and
then go to Bernard and and say, hey, identify with
you as a white woman. He didn't say, I don't
want to hear nothing about no sexism and gender oppression.
(25:24):
What you're doing in your life to make sure you
overcome with these men are trying to do. That's what
he said to black people in regard to race. So
we have to be honest about it. Even though he
was beautiful, we loved them, we and I was a
surrogant for him twice. But I I distinguished being a
sergeant to get him in office, then to hold him
to account. And to this day, they ain't feeling me.
You know. People think, oh, Michael Rick, guys in your favorite,
a intellectual, but they don't feel me. They don't invite
(25:46):
me today's stuff. I'm not bit to the complaining. I'm
saying what it is for y'all out there thinking, oh
my god, we're all in a comb by y'all. It
ain't a comb by ya moment. Because Obama and his
people get mad when you challenge them too. They you
out as a black person too. They exclude you from
their circle of privilege too. And let me, let me,
(26:06):
let me even I'm gonna reveal this on the End
Gordon Show. I never told nobody else, and I never
said this in public. I was at an event the
other day. This is a true story, and I was
speaking for the n double a c P. And they
had secured um permission from the Obama's. They had had
a contact the third person who knew them well, that
(26:28):
they were gonna sign books and send three of them.
They found out who the keynote speaker was and they
cut them. They no longer were willing to participate and
send the books for free. That's petty, like I'm gonna
call it. That's petty, right, that's petty. Let's be bigger
than that, broader than that. If you don't like what
(26:48):
I did and said about you the book I wrote,
I get it. But this is how we don't make progress.
This is this is young Dolph on the high bourgeoise set.
This is black owned, black prime at levels we don't
often see that. We're not often we don't often speak about.
Now you as that, Gordon. I'm sure you've pissed some
people off and they keep you out. I'm Mike, or guys,
I'm piss some people. I look, I'm doing real well.
(27:11):
I ain't complaining about that, but I'm being honest about
how this stuff works behind the scenes, and even some
people watching us not see he's being all jealous. I
ain't mad. I ain't trying to go to none of
their chicken Denners. I ain't trying to go nowhere. I'm
on to the next one. I'm doing what I do,
but I'm telling you the truth about how it operates.
If we want to talk about how it's a criminal
act and it should be for young black people to
(27:33):
hurt each other, look how black people of note and
worth and power treat each other too. All of that
is intertwined in a very serious fashion. I would agree
with you. I would also say, though, Mike, before I
move on, just to the broader picture of race, and
that we have to learn how to hold one another
(27:55):
accountable without being called a sellout, without being this and
vited to a picnic. I have said, I said it
in the book. I have said that we need to
start doing that with our leadership. I think we do
a lot of press conferences. I think that the folks
who have taken on those mantles are earnest. I think
(28:15):
that they are out there seven in a good fight.
But I do think the needle has not moved in
a way that it should, and we have to find
out and also lend ourselves to assist in better ways
of moving that needle, because we are losing too many
people that it can't be better stated than that. All
I want to say is amen. This is like you
(28:36):
see Franklin preaching. I went amen, because you're telling the
truth right there, sir um and calling each other sell
out handkerchief head. I disagree with you. You are tom
now there are and there are times that's exactly right.
But we can't conflate that with someone who simply disagrees
(28:57):
with you. Right. That's as a monster, bro, I know
on that. But black people be careful and worry about
cancel culture. You're the cancelor today. You're gonna be to
cancel Lee tomorrow. Let me ask you this before we
let you go, Mike, And in terms of just the
overhaul overall picture of race, I don't think that there's
any right minded person. And again, you don't have to
(29:19):
agree with me politically, but it is hard for me
to accept anyone who can look at this country in
its present state and not know that we are a
racist country. When that when that question was put to
Kamala Harris, she walked around it. We are America is
(29:39):
and has always been a racist country. It's been built
on racism. It flourishes because of racism. Uh, and we
see it day in and day out, whether it be
verdicts and courtrooms, whether it be uh people allowed to
skate for white coll the crimes, and people of color
(30:02):
being put away for decades for minor offenses, right simply
because of the color of their skin. So let me
ask you, I let's let's lift the curtain a little bit.
When you were brilliant most recently on Bill Maher show,
I sent you a text and I said to you,
you know, you start to see where America is when
(30:24):
someone who has been deemed a liberal thinker like Bill
Maher starts to suggest that, well, well, come on, guys,
look at the advancements we've made. Yeah, but you're not
the oppressed. We appreciate it, but it ain't there yet,
and it ain't time to slow down. How do you
see where we are in its totality? Mike, Now, that's
(30:48):
a great point. And I'm gonna tell you what I
love about Bill Martin. Now, me and Bill Maher, as
you saw on that fro we're fighting like casts and dogs.
But he's a sweet, good natured human being. I know
a lot of people like, oh my god, what And
he allows you points that a lot of black people
have that wouldn't ordinarily get amplified without his platform, even
if he's gonna argue against you. I ain't man, give
me on your I don't ask you to agree with me.
(31:09):
Just give me some space and opportunity, and then you're
gonna tag team me with your boy, Glenn Lowry. Glenn
Lowry went on Twitter like an adolescent and said, uh,
the people are spoken. I wondered the dice and that
more time, but I had more stuffsance something I wanted
to bate Negro. Please in what world? Bro? Come on dog?
(31:34):
They dested you off, brought you out to tumbs in
the catacomb. Nobody, Larry? Who is so many people like,
who is that guy? Right? And I showed him respect,
you know? And afterwards I told him, I said, Professor Lowry,
I've read every word you've ever wadden. You know what
he said to me. This is with me, him and
Bill murn Um. After the show, he said, I wish
(31:55):
I could say the same. He said, maybe I've scammed
some of your work. How can you be a serious
intellectual and say that it ain't even about Michael Ricks?
But I didn't wrote books that have been on the
New York Times bestseller list seven m. If you want
to take that messure, if you want to take academically
uh rigorous, there are some of my books that would
(32:15):
qualify for that, if you want to talk about public
facing scholarship in other words and whatever. But I've been
a significant and influential figure and for you to just
dismiss me like I didn't skimmed a couple of yours,
you you ain't doing me no disfavor. You're revealing the
lack of credibility and the pedigree of your mind that
you're like an algorithm on on the social media. Only
(32:36):
people who agree with you is who you read. I
don't agree with John mcwarter, but I read him a
smart guy. I don't agree with um Glenn Lowry, smart guy.
I'm a reader. So that kind of you know, fetishization
of my own particular perspective is what is deeply problematic.
And to use him as a voice piece to suggest
it ain't as bad as y'all I think it is
(32:57):
out there and everything and about race. That's why I said,
let me give you some temporary issues. Derek Choban. That
was last year, brother, That ain't fifty years ago. So yes,
we are living in a racist country. And I don't
know that. Kamala Harris was called in a tough position. Jesus,
I'm the vice president going for president either in three
years or in seven years, so I can't you know
the first thing they're gonna play back, this is a
(33:19):
racist nation? And who you want for president? Come on,
we know what time it was. But there are ways
in which black people have always signified like no, one's
not a racist country. No, but I'll tell you what,
it's not a racist country. We may tremendous progress, but
there are some persistent in the qualities that we have
to dress because we don't need to commercial, we just
(33:39):
want the product. See asking Kamala Harris about if this
is a racist nation is the commercial. Asking her what
she will do to render the problem moot and to
challenge white supremacy is the product. So use your office,
leverage your authority to address the inequities that prevailed. This
(33:59):
is a but see, you and I are free enough
in this ironic we're free of than the president. We're
free of than the vice president. We're freer than people
who are bound to say things. That's why we still
have a role. That's why Comedians like Dave Chappelle have
a role. Whether you like him or not, He's saying
stuff and challenge stuff that a lot of people don't
want to hear, that might be upset by, that we
(34:20):
might find defensive. So comedians, critics, um talk show hosts,
media heads, intellectuals, we have a responsibility poets, artists to
tell the truth that cannot be miment or mirrored. Uh
in political orders. It is a racist country. It is
deeply entrenched in white supremacy. It pays a debt to that.
(34:42):
You and I know that with Kyle Rittenhouse getting off
without a single a single blemish on his record, without
being convicted of not ne're one charge. White tears cancel
everything except white fears. That's what it is. Two and
those are even crocodile tears. Faith tears cancel out a
(35:06):
sense of justice and an obligation to do the right thing.
So you and I must continually perform a level of blackness,
a level of conscience, a level of creative imagination that
caused the nation to account. That's our role in responsibility,
and that's one that we hope to fulfill as long
as there's breath in our bodies and blood in our veins. Well,
(35:27):
whether it's Aretha Franklin or Jay Z, Colin Kaepernick, or
Tommy Smith or Ross Brewer, CEO of Walgreens and uh
Barack Obama, we all have to put that face on
and entertain. And I would suggest to uh Professor Lowry
that he might want to do a little bit more
than skim some of your uh, you know, prophetic words
(35:49):
that you've given to us over the years. Uh, Mike,
always good to talk to you, brother, always brother ed
you one of our greats. It's always good. And to
talk to another brother from the d up? What Up? Michael.
Eric Dyson's book Entertaining Race, Performing Blackness in America is
(36:12):
available now. One hundred is produced by ed Gordon Media
and distributed by I Heart Media. Carol Johnson Green and
Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our editor is Lance Patton.
Gerald Albright composed and performed our theme. Please join me
(36:33):
on Twitter and Instagram at ed L. Gordon and on
Facebook at ed Gordon Media.
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast. Today a conversation with Michael Eric Dyson. The
Vanderbilt University professor has always had his finger on the
pulse of culture. His latest book, Entertaining Race, Performing Blackness
in America, is a collection of his essays and speeches
(00:43):
that have dealt with the rolls blacks must play in
every aspect of their lives. Mike, you like, I am
a lover of music, and when I took a look
at the book and the title, I fought back to
we were kids when this came out. You remember the
R and B groupe, the Fantastic Four. They had a
small called the Whole World is a stage. Everybody plays
(01:07):
a part, and and in a way, that's exactly what
you're talking about in this book. Absolutely right. I mean
the Fantastic Four echoing Shakespeare all the world, our players
upon it, right, So we we were getting gut bucket
and grassroots Shakespeare through our music. Man. Uh, it's such
(01:28):
a fascinating fashion. But you're absolutely right. That's what I'm arguing.
I'm arguing that time on this shore, black people were
forced to entertain white America. That's just what it was,
on slave ships, on plantations, uh, in stages of many makings.
And then we've been forced to entertain the idea of race.
(01:50):
You know, we're we're out in the park, just trying
to have some barbecue and open. We gotta deal with race,
trying to sell some water on the street with our kids,
race lemonade, on this red race going into you know,
a coffee shop, in Starbucks. Race. Uh, in school, race
and the politics race and the white house race, race,
(02:11):
white brothers and sisters and others of a certain mindset.
You black people are obsessed with race. No, we can't
escape it because you always reminded us what time it is.
And so we don't want to escape our blackness. We
want to escape the racial limits you impose on it.
We love being black, but in in the eyes of distortion,
(02:31):
that doesn't seem to satisfy those who have a negative,
stereotypical vision of who we are. And then, thirdly, we've
got to find entertaining ways to speak about race. You know,
oh my god, hear you people get come with the
same old thing. So your book was a set of
investigative interviews with human beings trying to tap you know,
(02:54):
the source of racial animous blackness in this country. You
have to find an interesting, innovative and entertaining way to
come at the same old thing we've been trying to
talk about, you know forever. It's like that that that
preacher in the in the church when people say you're
just preaching the same old servant, he said, you commit
the same old sen So when you finished committing the
(03:15):
same old saying, I got a different term in to preach.
So that's what I meant. And you're right. We're constantly
being asked to perform. We're constantly performing. Uh. We're engaging
in all kinds of activities and gestures that that communicate
our identities and our desires. Martin for King Jr. Was
(03:35):
a great performer. I mean, don't don't sleep on the
fact that, as you know, down in Birmingham, Alabama, he
and Fred Shuttle's Worth and Andrew Young and a whole
bunch of other uh snic activists, men and women figured
out if this buffoonish um you know, dictatorial Commissioner of
Public Safety named Bull Connor, can be lured into exposing
(04:01):
and revealing the the the the nastiness, the viciousness, and
the barbarism with which he treats black people. We can
make some progress here. What happens. Water hoses are unleashed
dogs are you know, unleashed on black men and women
and children. And during their dinner, many white folks were
(04:25):
looking at this, going this is unacceptable. So King was
a performer of social justice the same way John Lewis
w was than Diane Nash and Septr mcclark. So we're
constantly performing Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Anita Baker, Aretha Franklin,
Ed Gordon, Michael, Eric Dyson, the average black person out here.
(04:46):
Let me touch your hair? Is that your real paper?
Did you really write that? Constantly performing levels and degrees
of blackness? Uh? For for ourselves and for the broader world.
Here's the interesting part when I thought about this, and
you and I have discussed this for decades now, quite frankly, Mike,
(05:06):
But what is also unique about us that white folk
don't have to deal with because we all have this
kind of facade we put on for the world. Right,
So the Ed Gordon that I give to the public,
there's that Ed Gordon. There's the Ed Gordon. My friend knows,
my friends know, and then there's the Ed Gordon that
only I know, right, and and maybe two or three
(05:29):
a handful of my closest people. Right. But we as
black people not only have to perform for white people.
We find ourselves in many corners performing for ourselves our race.
How much more tiring is that? And that we often
don't have a safe haven anywhere we wear the mask?
(05:52):
Paul Lawrence Dunbar said, Mike, God, when can we put
it off? When can we stop? When can we you know, stop? Yes, man, no, sir,
when can we even among our with our children? Don't
want to see him? I'm a Gordon. I can't let
my kids see me vulnerable. You know, I'm Michael Dyson.
I can't. I can't. I got to stand up. I
(06:12):
got to be a man. I got to be a woman.
I got to, you know, be a leader. I've got
to show that I'm impervious to these insults. Right and then,
and then you have to be either blacker or less black,
depending on your audience. How do I calm it down?
How do I curb it? How do I shape it?
(06:34):
How do I get over the white folk? How do
I tell jokes to make them feel it? Ease so
that they won't be upset. How do I get on
the elevator knowing the white woman is looking at me, thinking,
oh my god, is my life going to end? How
do I talk about it when people cross the street,
when they see me. How do I talk to my
kids about you know, the police? I mean, the performance
of blackness is down there, infinite, and as you said,
(06:57):
it's excruciating, and it's not just to the dominant cultures,
to ourselves, it's among ourselves. It's between ourselves, the politics
of respectability. How can I expose who I am? How
can I you know, drawing back in, how does some
people say I'm keeping it real and perform a kind
of you know, blackness that they think is real? And
yet what has it been informed by? You know? Why
(07:18):
is it the young Dolph is getting killed? Why is
it that they're beefing in the hip hop? Why is
it that the display of toxic masculinity becomes a trope
of authenticity and in art form that is ostensibly about
the blackest realities? We confront the contradictions, the conflicts, trying
to act as if you were something that you're not.
(07:39):
I was looking the other day at the at the
interview that you conducted with Shuge Night, Michael Eric Dayson
dand Yale Smith and Kevin Poe. Wow, I mean, I mean,
what what a moment of multiple levels of performance. We
were talking about a guy who essentially had to form
(08:00):
a level of authenticity when he was interested in white
rock music and chilling with his girlfriend and discussing his
acting abilities and his wide reading in the history of
photography Tupac. But he's got to perform the hardcore FuG Now.
I'm not saying that that performance is any less authentic
(08:23):
than the performance of his other elements, but one dominates
the other. But the night that you did the interview
with us and Shook Night and Kevin Powell and Daniel Smith,
and you had to step in and be a policeman
essentially to say there are certain rules and respect that
should be shown here. And you were courageous and asserting
(08:46):
that necessity. And then we look at young Dolphin, We
look at you know, all these young men who are dying,
you know, and I get hit up by famous entertainers
going dot, what can we do? You gotta you gotta
help us stop this? And on the one hand, I
fight about this all the time. I defend young black people.
I write about hip hop, I say that black on
black prime is not a thing. It's it's neighbor to
(09:07):
neighbor carnage. You kill where you live. Poor white people
kill poor white people. Right. Ninety three percent of black
people who are killed are killed by black people. Eighty
four percent of white people who are killed are killed
by white people. So we know that's true. Having said that,
it is, it is. It is damaging, it is traumatic.
It is destructive for us uh to see black hands
(09:33):
killing black hearts and lives, wiping and out wiping us, out,
murdering us for whatever the reason is, for whatever the
situation and circumstances, and to see that carnage and to
celebrate it, and to commercially benefit from black death, and
to circulate it as the basis of your existence. And
(09:55):
then when it happens, rat a tat tat never hesitate
to put a brother on his fact. And here we
are death charges, death dealing, death, fear finality brought to
us as a right of passage of black masculinity. This
is toxic. When we talk about toxic masculinity, that may
(10:15):
be among the most toxic that ain't usually what people
talking about, but that's what it is. Or beating up
on a young lady. You're a football player with struggling
with certain mental issues. Now we know, I admit, the
white boy who did the same thing didn't come out
of the same uh scrutiny. I get it. It's wrong.
We should correct it. However, nobody should be hitting on
a woman like that, and nobody should be beating on
(10:38):
a woman like that, And the price to be paid
is pretty steep and should be in terms of both
cultural indictment and you know, being held to account in
a criminal justice system. But yet the people fighting against
the over incarceration of black men then look at the
deeds and gestures of certain aspects of black masculinity that
(11:00):
are out of control, that are out of bounds, and
what do you do? You got to figure out a
way to think about it. That's why the performance of
blackness is so critical. Who are we performing for? What
audience are we looking at? What ideals do we nurture?
And who do we hold to account and who do
we idolize as we as we make our way through
(11:22):
the world of performing the blackness that is our lives
here's what's interesting. And in the book, you you call
a number of your essays and speeches and you bring
some pub culture to uh to illustrate what you speak of.
But it's over decades, over years, and then you have
(11:43):
uh an introductory essay that kind of ties it all together,
or introduces it, if you will. But I'm curious like this,
as I describe as schizophrenia that Black America has been
having four decades, do you think that we are at
a point now, a breaking point? It seems to me
that the world is on edge. We know that it's
(12:04):
not just black folk. The world is on edge. But
I do think that we are now in such a
tenuous place, uh, perhaps more than I can remember in
in my lifetime. Uh, that I wonder what we have
to do now, because we can't go on like this.
Oh we can't. I mean, and you're so right. It's
(12:25):
jacked up for us, but it's jacked up for everybody America,
the nation, the world is jacked up. But the world
in which we live, it's so messed up. It reminds
me of that Jay Z line when he was talking
about um dealing with Crystal and the Crystal people didn't
like black people, and he's like, oh really, so let
me come up with my own thing, Asa spades. One
(12:46):
of the reasons jay Z is a billionaires because of
white supremacy. It forced him to do his own thing, right.
He says, they're bigger issues in the world I know,
but I first had to take care of the world
I know. Right, So the world that you know, I know,
there's bigger stuff, but this is the world I know,
and this is where we operate. So the bigger issues
(13:08):
in the world I know. But these issues that affect
us affect the world. What Martin Luther King Jr. What
Septum mcclark, What Joyne Robinson, what Fanny lou Hamer? What
Diane Nation understood? What affects us? Affects everybody. This is
the world in a nutshell. And if you so, if
you want to deny people the right to vote, it's
gonna affect more than black people. If you want to
treat mistreat human beings because you think that they don't
(13:31):
deserve a certain kind of education, it's kind of gonna
be quarantined the black people. It's gonna affect your people
as well. You think the violence that you celebrate when
black people are her harding or hurting and harming. Black
people will will say, uh, you know, quarantined to our community. No,
it creeps out to the suburbs as well. So we
are dealing with human issues in a way that need
(13:53):
to be talked about. But you know, when we look
at the big lie that's being told, when we look
at you know what hap and with Donald Trump, black
people tried to warn white folks. This is what happens
when you bow down before a fascist who tells lies,
who makes stuff up. Oh if it's just you black people,
all right, Oh no, January six, it's about all of
(14:15):
us were in this boat together, right. That was an
attack on America, not just black people. Although you're dragging
the Confederate flag through the halls of Congress, you are
showing that you are disloyal to the nation. What I've
never understood about wife folks mad at Colin Kaepernick, but
celebrating the Confederate effect. You celebrate to somebody who succeeded
(14:37):
from the nation. They didn't want to be part of
your group. They said what y'all was doing ain't something
we want to do. But you're mad at the guy
who bows down in reverence, takes a knee and says,
I want to show a respectful resistance to what I
perceived to be problems in our communities. And he's the
worst thing in the world. So what's interesting is that
(14:57):
we are facing a crisis of explan nation, of confidence,
of self respect, and understanding what the true goals of
American democracy are. And it's not just about black versus right.
It's about white. It's about right versus wrong and what
will uplift the nation and what will deepen us. So
(15:18):
the problems, the predicaments, the conflicts, the conversations that black
people have that you conducted in your book are about
the future of America. Not just the future of black people,
though that's critical. It's about the nature of truth in
a nation where Black people are warn from the very beginning.
When you tell lies about who we are, when you
(15:39):
stereotype us, when you make stuff up and say we're
stupid and dumb and unintelligent, don't work hard. Those were
lies equally as devastating as the lies now being told.
But since they were being told about white people on Marsque,
it was all right. Now they see what happens when
a white guy. Donald Trump had him, Wait a minute,
you called Mexicans rapists, all right, you call black people
(16:00):
should okay, okay, But now you're talking about us too.
Now you're beating up on fellow Republicans. Oh my god,
the carnage and consternation. This was wrong. It was wrong
when he was doing it to black people and brown
people and Mexicans and the like. So many white brothers
and sisters, like many of us don't get moved until
it happens to us, our community, our people, our tribes.
(16:23):
And as a result of that, blackness is a gateway
into an American identity that all of us have to
grapple with. And the and the problems we're grappling was
now the failure of American citizen read to believe in
its government, the failure of the government to be able
to deliver critical resources at a time of crisis to
vulnerable populations. The suspicion of politicians that we believe are
(16:49):
inherently liars, and the inability of any side of the
aisle to come to grips with the other side. Now,
I happen to believe one side is more responsible, But
at the end of the day, we got two people
who are conservative Democrats named Cinema and Mansion, who are
broad blocking progress that could otherwise take place under a
(17:10):
Democratic president who has both the Senate, FT though and
UH the United States House of Representatives. So these complicated
issues are often vetted within our community but not seeing
in its value to the dominant world. You know, It's
like you and I when we went to Fox Theater,
when we went to movie theaters when we were kids
(17:31):
coming up in Detroit, we could go to a movie
theater and have at ain't no black people in the movie.
We cry, we're talking, we're moving, we're clapping. I don't
see no black people in Willards with the rats. Even
it wasn't even a black round in there. It wasn't
even a black rat. It was all white rats. But
we were like, oh my god, look at this. We
could see universality and whiteness. White people have to see
(17:55):
universality in our blackness and what we are and who
we are, and our of struggles are indeed American struggles.
When we come back black empathy, staring down the White
House and telling the truth even when it's painful. I
(18:36):
turned our conversation to finding new narratives in the fight
for justice. So there are actors who concern themselves about
being stereotyped, and they want to take on different roles.
How do we change the makeup? And I'll give you
the example I use. I keep hearing people say that
we've got to force things our way, We've got to
(18:58):
demand from Joe Biden because we were the difference in
him getting an office or being defeated. Yet I see
us doing the same things. I see legislation that we want,
not being put to the four Yet when they need
us for a photo op, here we are running to
(19:18):
the White House and taking that picture. You and I
have both had invitations to the White House. Let us
not fool ourselves. That's heavy stuff. But if you're going
to change this dynamic, you are then going to have
to start to do things you haven't done before. Turn
away that invitation to the you know, South Lawn, say
no to the Christmas party, say no until this is done.
(19:42):
Do you see that in the future or is the
human frailty going to stay up front? That's the hell
of a question. No, we ain't canceling the trips to
the White No, it's not gonna go down I'm gonna
go no. The point is no if that ain't happen.
(20:03):
But what we do harbor And the challenge to us
is when you're get in the room, what you're saying,
are you amen? And are you echoing what was going on?
Let me tell you what. Let me be transparent here.
So I had a meeting with President Biden along with
seven other renowned historians and allectuals and so on and
(20:24):
so forth. And he's a sweet guy. He's very empathetic
things I mean amazing, and he's genuine and trying to
figure out what to do. So that's the kind of
guy you can work with. You can go, uh, this
ain't it like right here? I just disagree with you
on that. I love your heart, I love what you're doing,
(20:46):
I love your ambition. You're the first president, including the
black one, to say that you old black people your future,
because that black person did not say that. The black
president didn't do that though, And and he's a nicer
guy than many of the other presidents have been nice sir,
Why does that make a difference, Because you're not arrogant,
(21:06):
you're not condescending, you're not presumptuous that you're the smartest
guy in the room, you know more about race or
politics or culture. What it was impressive to me about
Biden is he's talking to scholars in the area. But
he engaged each one of us after our presentation for
like fifteen minutes. Like we were thinking, all right, we'll
do our thing. He say, oh, you know, good, good,
good good. He's he's actually asking questions, raising questions because
(21:28):
he doesn't assume he's the smartest guy in the room.
He doesn't assume he already knows it. Maybe a black
president thought the black president knew more about race than
you did. Really, because did you did you make that
a area was study? I know you black, I know
you studied a lot of this stuff, but that on
you you are know African American studies made down't there?
I think you were doing law and constitution. That's great.
(21:50):
But dog, just because you black, don't mean you know black. Now,
this guy, the first black president, knew a lot could
teach black studies. But when you when you have that
kind of presumption, you may not be as open to
different viewpoints about issues of race that others have delved
deeply into and that they weren't condescended in the same fashion.
(22:10):
So at least with Joe Biden, you have an openness
to engage this issue. But you gotta have enough courage
to say I disagree with you. So I don't think
we should give up getting in the room. I think
we should take it upon ourselves that have a lot
more courage when we get up in there. Don't cheese
and take the picture. Only cheese and take the picture.
But also, you got grandkids, dog, you gotta show him
(22:33):
something what you've been doing, Papa. But you got to
you got to say what I did as I had
a conversation. Look at those conversations between Martin's and King
j lb J. He was nice. Yes, Mr President, that
has been a struggle here. But at the same time,
if we don't get this bill passed, we're not going
(22:55):
to be well now now now, Dr King uh you know,
so they ain't going back And for you, they on faith.
He on the he on the phone call, what the
president nice, respectful and the insist that that things changed.
Now Malcolm could never get no invitation, so he's gonna
he gonna come hard on the outside. Look at you,
(23:16):
Look at you. You've been bamboos, you've been hoodwing. Malcolm
never had access to that kind of power. So we
got to Malcolm standing on the outside talking about everybody
on the inside that might be legitimate, bringing pressure to
bear that might be legitimate, but you ain't gonna change
the law. Malcolm was great, but he changed perspective perceptions.
That was great. He changed perspectives, that was great, but
(23:37):
he didn't change practice in terms of law. What we
have to do is we have to make certain that
you that that we take the spirit of a Malcolm
to resist white supremacist seduction, but at the same time
hold to account and to the feat to the fire
(23:57):
of those that we admired, and that includes by a way,
not only Joe Biden, but Kamala Harris. That means that, look,
we appreciate you, we love you, we celebrate you. We
know what difficult position you're occupying, but I understand the
difficult positions of the people who put you in the office.
I can never acknowledge that what you face as the
first black president is more important than what black people
(24:18):
on the ordinary level face. I can never acknowledge that
you the first black first vice president and a white
man with tremendous um skill and compassion and empathy for
black book, you ain't facing a herder problem than the
average black person out here. So I can only cut
you so much slack. It's a tough job. Ain't nobody
force it on you. You ran for it. You said,
(24:40):
make me president, make me vice president. So at that level,
you knew what the job entailed, and you knew that
we have to hold you to account and where we
fell off, and let's be honest, if we're gonna be
brutally honest, we didn't do that with Obama. Andy that
we now we look and I ain't one of those
those that didn't understand what he was up against. You
gotta understand what the man was up against. Having said that,
(25:03):
that can't be no excuse, bro, that we know what
you're up against. And Obama was skillful and deploying, Hey,
this is what I'm up against against us. Right, he
go up more House College and beat us up and
then go to Bernard and and say, hey, identify with
you as a white woman. He didn't say, I don't
want to hear nothing about no sexism and gender oppression.
(25:24):
What you're doing in your life to make sure you
overcome with these men are trying to do. That's what
he said to black people in regard to race. So
we have to be honest about it. Even though he
was beautiful, we loved them, we and I was a
surrogant for him twice. But I I distinguished being a
sergeant to get him in office, then to hold him
to account. And to this day, they ain't feeling me.
You know. People think, oh, Michael Rick, guys in your favorite,
a intellectual, but they don't feel me. They don't invite
(25:46):
me today's stuff. I'm not bit to the complaining. I'm
saying what it is for y'all out there thinking, oh
my god, we're all in a comb by y'all. It
ain't a comb by ya moment. Because Obama and his
people get mad when you challenge them too. They you
out as a black person too. They exclude you from
their circle of privilege too. And let me, let me,
(26:06):
let me even I'm gonna reveal this on the End
Gordon Show. I never told nobody else, and I never
said this in public. I was at an event the
other day. This is a true story, and I was
speaking for the n double a c P. And they
had secured um permission from the Obama's. They had had
a contact the third person who knew them well, that
(26:28):
they were gonna sign books and send three of them.
They found out who the keynote speaker was and they
cut them. They no longer were willing to participate and
send the books for free. That's petty, like I'm gonna
call it. That's petty, right, that's petty. Let's be bigger
than that, broader than that. If you don't like what
(26:48):
I did and said about you the book I wrote,
I get it. But this is how we don't make progress.
This is this is young Dolph on the high bourgeoise set.
This is black owned, black prime at levels we don't
often see that. We're not often we don't often speak about.
Now you as that, Gordon. I'm sure you've pissed some
people off and they keep you out. I'm Mike, or guys,
I'm piss some people. I look, I'm doing real well.
(27:11):
I ain't complaining about that, but I'm being honest about
how this stuff works behind the scenes, and even some
people watching us not see he's being all jealous. I
ain't mad. I ain't trying to go to none of
their chicken Denners. I ain't trying to go nowhere. I'm
on to the next one. I'm doing what I do,
but I'm telling you the truth about how it operates.
If we want to talk about how it's a criminal
act and it should be for young black people to
(27:33):
hurt each other, look how black people of note and
worth and power treat each other too. All of that
is intertwined in a very serious fashion. I would agree
with you. I would also say, though, Mike, before I
move on, just to the broader picture of race, and
that we have to learn how to hold one another
(27:55):
accountable without being called a sellout, without being this and
vited to a picnic. I have said, I said it
in the book. I have said that we need to
start doing that with our leadership. I think we do
a lot of press conferences. I think that the folks
who have taken on those mantles are earnest. I think
(28:15):
that they are out there seven in a good fight.
But I do think the needle has not moved in
a way that it should, and we have to find
out and also lend ourselves to assist in better ways
of moving that needle, because we are losing too many
people that it can't be better stated than that. All
I want to say is amen. This is like you
(28:36):
see Franklin preaching. I went amen, because you're telling the
truth right there, sir um and calling each other sell
out handkerchief head. I disagree with you. You are tom
now there are and there are times that's exactly right.
But we can't conflate that with someone who simply disagrees
(28:57):
with you. Right. That's as a monster, bro, I know
on that. But black people be careful and worry about
cancel culture. You're the cancelor today. You're gonna be to
cancel Lee tomorrow. Let me ask you this before we
let you go, Mike, And in terms of just the
overhaul overall picture of race, I don't think that there's
any right minded person. And again, you don't have to
(29:19):
agree with me politically, but it is hard for me
to accept anyone who can look at this country in
its present state and not know that we are a
racist country. When that when that question was put to
Kamala Harris, she walked around it. We are America is
(29:39):
and has always been a racist country. It's been built
on racism. It flourishes because of racism. Uh, and we
see it day in and day out, whether it be
verdicts and courtrooms, whether it be uh people allowed to
skate for white coll the crimes, and people of color
(30:02):
being put away for decades for minor offenses, right simply
because of the color of their skin. So let me
ask you, I let's let's lift the curtain a little bit.
When you were brilliant most recently on Bill Maher show,
I sent you a text and I said to you,
you know, you start to see where America is when
(30:24):
someone who has been deemed a liberal thinker like Bill
Maher starts to suggest that, well, well, come on, guys,
look at the advancements we've made. Yeah, but you're not
the oppressed. We appreciate it, but it ain't there yet,
and it ain't time to slow down. How do you
see where we are in its totality? Mike, Now, that's
(30:48):
a great point. And I'm gonna tell you what I
love about Bill Martin. Now, me and Bill Maher, as
you saw on that fro we're fighting like casts and dogs.
But he's a sweet, good natured human being. I know
a lot of people like, oh my god, what And
he allows you points that a lot of black people
have that wouldn't ordinarily get amplified without his platform, even
if he's gonna argue against you. I ain't man, give
me on your I don't ask you to agree with me.
(31:09):
Just give me some space and opportunity, and then you're
gonna tag team me with your boy, Glenn Lowry. Glenn
Lowry went on Twitter like an adolescent and said, uh,
the people are spoken. I wondered the dice and that
more time, but I had more stuffsance something I wanted
to bate Negro. Please in what world? Bro? Come on dog?
(31:34):
They dested you off, brought you out to tumbs in
the catacomb. Nobody, Larry? Who is so many people like,
who is that guy? Right? And I showed him respect,
you know? And afterwards I told him, I said, Professor Lowry,
I've read every word you've ever wadden. You know what
he said to me. This is with me, him and
Bill murn Um. After the show, he said, I wish
(31:55):
I could say the same. He said, maybe I've scammed
some of your work. How can you be a serious
intellectual and say that it ain't even about Michael Ricks?
But I didn't wrote books that have been on the
New York Times bestseller list seven m. If you want
to take that messure, if you want to take academically
uh rigorous, there are some of my books that would
(32:15):
qualify for that, if you want to talk about public
facing scholarship in other words and whatever. But I've been
a significant and influential figure and for you to just
dismiss me like I didn't skimmed a couple of yours,
you you ain't doing me no disfavor. You're revealing the
lack of credibility and the pedigree of your mind that
you're like an algorithm on on the social media. Only
(32:36):
people who agree with you is who you read. I
don't agree with John mcwarter, but I read him a
smart guy. I don't agree with um Glenn Lowry, smart guy.
I'm a reader. So that kind of you know, fetishization
of my own particular perspective is what is deeply problematic.
And to use him as a voice piece to suggest
it ain't as bad as y'all I think it is
(32:57):
out there and everything and about race. That's why I said,
let me give you some temporary issues. Derek Choban. That
was last year, brother, That ain't fifty years ago. So yes,
we are living in a racist country. And I don't
know that. Kamala Harris was called in a tough position. Jesus,
I'm the vice president going for president either in three
years or in seven years, so I can't you know
the first thing they're gonna play back, this is a
(33:19):
racist nation? And who you want for president? Come on,
we know what time it was. But there are ways
in which black people have always signified like no, one's
not a racist country. No, but I'll tell you what,
it's not a racist country. We may tremendous progress, but
there are some persistent in the qualities that we have
to dress because we don't need to commercial, we just
(33:39):
want the product. See asking Kamala Harris about if this
is a racist nation is the commercial. Asking her what
she will do to render the problem moot and to
challenge white supremacy is the product. So use your office,
leverage your authority to address the inequities that prevailed. This
(33:59):
is a but see, you and I are free enough
in this ironic we're free of than the president. We're
free of than the vice president. We're freer than people
who are bound to say things. That's why we still
have a role. That's why Comedians like Dave Chappelle have
a role. Whether you like him or not, He's saying
stuff and challenge stuff that a lot of people don't
want to hear, that might be upset by, that we
(34:20):
might find defensive. So comedians, critics, um talk show hosts,
media heads, intellectuals, we have a responsibility poets, artists to
tell the truth that cannot be miment or mirrored. Uh
in political orders. It is a racist country. It is
deeply entrenched in white supremacy. It pays a debt to that.
(34:42):
You and I know that with Kyle Rittenhouse getting off
without a single a single blemish on his record, without
being convicted of not ne're one charge. White tears cancel
everything except white fears. That's what it is. Two and
those are even crocodile tears. Faith tears cancel out a
(35:06):
sense of justice and an obligation to do the right thing.
So you and I must continually perform a level of blackness,
a level of conscience, a level of creative imagination that
caused the nation to account. That's our role in responsibility,
and that's one that we hope to fulfill as long
as there's breath in our bodies and blood in our veins. Well,
(35:27):
whether it's Aretha Franklin or Jay Z, Colin Kaepernick, or
Tommy Smith or Ross Brewer, CEO of Walgreens and uh
Barack Obama, we all have to put that face on
and entertain. And I would suggest to uh Professor Lowry
that he might want to do a little bit more
than skim some of your uh, you know, prophetic words
(35:49):
that you've given to us over the years. Uh, Mike,
always good to talk to you, brother, always brother ed
you one of our greats. It's always good. And to
talk to another brother from the d up? What Up? Michael.
Eric Dyson's book Entertaining Race, Performing Blackness in America is
(36:12):
available now. One hundred is produced by ed Gordon Media
and distributed by I Heart Media. Carol Johnson Green and
Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our editor is Lance Patton.
Gerald Albright composed and performed our theme. Please join me
(36:33):
on Twitter and Instagram at ed L. Gordon and on
Facebook at ed Gordon Media.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com