October 24, 2023 • 47 mins
This week's guest is Angela Tucker. A brilliant filmmaker, author and transracial adoptee, her new book on that subject, You Should Be Grateful, makes for a fascinating conversation with Rosie.
Listen in as their unique perspectives of adoptee and adopter makes for an engrossing and enlightening conversation about the many layered complications of adoption, which often are portrayed in a fairy-tale narrative of "You Should Be Grateful"...Links fro the spisode:
https://www.adopteementorship.org/https://www.angelatucker.com/
Please send voice mail with your questions, comments or suggestions in a voice memo to OnwardRosie@gmail.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Well, hi everybody, it's me Shaka Khan. I feel for you,
I think I love you. It's Rossio Donald Duck, just
back from over the pond, So don't ways say across
the pond? What do they say? I went to London
to see opening night of the Madonna tour and it
did not disappoint. It was really an unbelievable night. And
(00:33):
she's magical. I don't know what to say. What she's
able to do and for decades of entertainment and music,
hit after hit after hit, her amazing children, the beautiful
video pieces edited together about people dying of AIDS, and
the beautiful thing about her mother and David, her son's mother,
(00:54):
and esther, her little daughter dancing, her daughter Mercy playing
the piano like a virtuoso. Lola was there doing the
vogue bit. It was, you know, it was. It's an amazing,
amazing tour and you'll see it and you'll know the
fact that she's able to do what she does at
(01:15):
sixty five is astounding and I will adore her forever.
There you go. I saw a wonderful musical in London
called Little Big Things, and it's about a young family,
a family of four boys in London and one of
the boys gets injured in a diving accident, one of
(01:39):
the brothers, and what it does to the family and
how he finds himself again. And it's very touching and
very well done. And the performers were epically talented, like
everyone had a more gorgeous voice than the next, and
together their harmonies were uplifting. It was one of to
(02:00):
see that show in the midst of such horrifying news
in the Mid East, and it doesn't seem to be
getting better. There's misinformation and hate coming everywhere and people
trying to present their feelings and I don't know, maybe
not everyone needs to have a knee jerk reaction, you know,
(02:21):
on social media. I don't even know. Listen, we have
a wonderful show today, excellent and fascinating show with Angela Tucker,
who's a very talented young woman. She is an adoption expert.
Her new book, You Should Be Grateful is out now
(02:41):
and it is a wonderful read and it's full of
very insightful things. It's a great book, it's a great
conversation and she's an amazingly gifted woman. She did a
documentary years ago that I loved and we ended up
talking about and think she was on the radio show.
I'm not exactly sure, but I know that I've spoken
(03:01):
to her before and I found her quite enchanting. And
here we are, Angela Tucker. Take a listen, Angela Tucker,
welcome here, Welcome to Onward with Rosio. Don good to
(03:25):
see you. Good to hear of your success and of
what's happened in your life in the time since closing.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Tell everyone a little bit about your family. Tell them
about your situation. The situation, well, the family. The family
is complicated, right, You were adopted by a white family,
and tell everybody about your journey in that area.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, everybody has unique families, right, But yeah, I was
born in Tennessee, placed in foster care right out of
the hospital basically, and then was adopted across the country
to Washington State. My parents, who are white and I'm black.
They adopted a bunch of kids, all from foster care,
and they're really great folks and had a great upbringing.
(04:11):
But in a closed adoption, was just very frustrated that
I couldn't know who I was related to, where I
came from, why I had to be adopted all these questions,
and my parents would do the best they could with
me to wonder as well. You know, they were just
like where did you get your athleticism? And who in
(04:33):
your family has a sweet tooth like you like that?
But that was as much as we could do until
I was twenty one, and I know.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Would you say the conversation your whole childhood had been
that open with your parents, where they were inclusive of
your birth family from the get go, and conversations and
casual conversation like that.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, I think so. They didn't know much and so
they couldn't give me details, but that alone was really
comforting that they would. Really they had this attitude of
like we wish we knew more, kind of like we
love you so much, so we must love the people
who came from who made you exactly and that is
(05:18):
so wonderful. A lot of my work today kind of
centers around that issue and that topic and how it's
actually really hard for some adoptive parents to extend that
kind of grace to their kids at birth families.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, I think it's more prevalent now, you know. My
children are twenty eight, twenty six, twenty three, twenty and
ten and all of them adopted. And I think that
now the conversation is much more inclusive than it was
(05:53):
when you were a kid. How do you think your
parents got to such you know, ahead of their time
ida about adoption. Did they go in wanting open and
that just was not an option or I know, I.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Do think they were ahead of their time a bit,
because certainly the mantra you know, eighties when I was adopted,
but even before that was like shame and secrecy and
the stigma about birth parents. And my parents' philosophy in
their worldview, I think is really never one of ownership
(06:28):
of the kids. Like I don't think they went in
adopting all of us thinking like these are going to
be our kids, But there's more of a philosophy of
like children are all of ours to steward kind of,
and that's it makes sense for them to adopt through
foster care too, where it's really obvious that we had
(06:50):
previous beginnings, we had another family. Whereas with some folks
who adopt, especially like infants or the private adoptions, there's
that tendency to just think of them as blank slates
and you can mold them through your nurture and that
nature will like well, the bad parts of their nature
(07:10):
or their genetics will like fade away, which yeah, they
didn't have that belief.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, that's wonderful. Some adoptees, I think have a burning
desire to define their place in adoption lore hm and
so in the book, in the first part of the
book is the adoptees manifesto. Can you tell people about that.
(07:36):
It's just so great. Thank you so much for reading it.
By the way, Oh, I listen. I'm very interested in
the time.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I know you obviously, Yes, I'm so glad to talk
about it. And I mean, I'm grateful for your advocacy
around LGBTQ parenting. You know, it was so crazy when
we weren't allowing gay couples to foster, like what in
the world.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And so yeah, I know that not only to a foster.
I had a foster kid. I was not allowed to
adapt even though I had raised her.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Ridiculous and that was.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
The law in Florida. And you know, scarily, with all
of these anti gay laws coming out now, is something
we have to still fight against. It's really absurd.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah. Well, my manifesto that I start with in the book. Basically,
it was like a combination of all of these statements
that I was telling myself as I was traveling around
the country with either the film but the documentary about
my search for my birth parents, or just giving a
keynote somewhere, and I felt like I always had to
(08:38):
ramp myself up and give myself a little pep talk
because in the audience, I knew from previous experiences when
I would share the truth about my opinion on adoption
that I think it's really tragic that my birth mother
couldn't keep me. And I would talk about this, I
would say, my adoptive parents are great, but and I'm
(09:02):
grateful for them, but I'm not grateful to have been adopted.
The audience members would often like run up to my
parents if they were in the audience and be like.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And say, I'm so sorry she said, yes, are you
okay with what she said?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Or I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I can't believe she did that. I can't believe her right.
And so after all you did, you did, you took
her from nowhere. She would have had nothing, she would
have been.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Dead if you hadn't gotten her all the exactly And
so I was compiling all these like pep talk statements
for myself, things like, yes, Angela, you can love more
than one set of parents. Yes, Angela, you can wonder
about your birth parents and still have gratitude for your
(09:47):
adoptive family, Like all of these things that I knew
weren't contradictory. But that's the feedback that I felt like
I was getting. And so, having read kind of these
statements to myself for long enough, and then I heard
myself sharing them with other adoptees. As I was mentoring
other adopted people, I'm like, why didn't I make it
(10:07):
into some sort of cute thing that you can put
on the wall. So I had a friend design it,
and it's just like a mantra for me. And I'm
excited because I've had adoptive parents now by this manifesto
and put it on their wall. One of the statements
I wrote says, the pre verbal memories you have with
(10:28):
your first family are real. And then postnatal culture shock exists,
which is just a word that I made up, postnatal
culture shock. But curiosity about our roots is innate, and
I love that it has started creating conversations in adoptive families'
homes because they just have it on the wall that
(10:50):
I feel like otherwise they may not have had those conversations,
so that feels like a win.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well, they wouldn't they wouldn't have known that the conversation
would be welcome. I do think that I and the
rest of the world are sold a lie about adoption.
We're sold a Disney version, fairy tale version. Yes, we're
told a fairy tale version. And it is just as
(11:18):
unfair to all of It's unfair to all of the
in the equation, but the most vulnerable and the one
with the least power is the baby. Is the infant
who has no choice over what happens. And you know,
but I do think adoption is still necessary in our country.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I agree at a much lower rate. I think we
still need other people to care for kids at times. Definitely.
I don't know why we need to terminate people's rights
in order to do it.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, I can see that, although although as an adopt
of parent, I would say, when you are forming and
raising your family, you don't want to open yourself up
in maybe legal ways, or you know, like you don't
(12:15):
when you adopt a child, you don't adopt their whole family,
and that's a culture thing. In other countries, you sort
of do you know, in other countries, people the families
stay in touch, there's visitation. It's not such a legal
formal thing. But you know, some people, most most women,
I would say, and tell me if you agree with this,
(12:36):
most women who give up babies are in crisis.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I would hope. So, I mean, I hope that there's
not a single adoption that happens where there isn't a
true need. Yeah, and that's where sometimes I'm talking in
my books about the micro fictions where adoptive parents will
tell their kids, you know, your birth mom loved you
so much she chose adoption for you. That being really
(13:00):
problematic because for so many adoptees, then you grow up
really not understanding like love, What does love mean? Does
it mean they give me away? And we need to
understand why we are where we are, and so the
truth has to be told in some way, And so
much of my work right now is finding age appropriate
(13:23):
ways to tell a kid that your biological father murdered
someone and so they can't parent you or whatever the
truth is. But we just can't avoid it. But yeah,
you're right.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We'll be right back with more Angela Tucker. I think
(14:00):
think the questions come up, you know, the questions came
up for my kids. My seven year old son said
to me right after a fairy accident in New York
where there was a woman who was next to a
man who got his leg amputated, and she ended up
saving his life and then she disappeared. And I was
reading this to him in the in the car on
(14:20):
the way to work one day, and he said, Mommy,
that lady must have been an angel. And I said,
I think you're right, Monnie, I think she was an angel.
And then he said, why didn't my birth mother want?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Right, because he was thinking of the angel and the
love and the you know, And I came up with
something sort of on the for that. I was not prepared,
but I said, well, Parker, I could tell you this
that your birth mother was not ready to be a mommy.
And God looked inside the tummy and saw that there
was a mix up, and she listened to God because
(14:55):
she's a good, good person. And God found you me
because as I'm your match.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Now that's what's stuck for that day, you know. And
I heard him telling his friends a couple of months
later that you know, some mommies aren't ready to be mommies. Yeah,
and then the mommies who are they get to be them.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I'm like, hmmm. You know, now, in hindsight, I'm not
sure that I hit it out of the park that
I think it's especially.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Difficult being like a famous celebrity for you.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, because yeah, well just.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
The title of my book, you should be grateful, like automatically,
I think any adoptive parents, when people hear the word
adoptive mom, adoptive dad, they just think these people are
like saints.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Saints, yes exactly, are like they do. And people have
said to me all the time, you're so generous. I'm like,
they saved me. I didn't save them, without a doubt.
They were each like a life preserver holding me up,
you know they I did not do anything gracious. I
was the beneficiary of another woman's generosity. But whether the
(16:02):
word generosity is applicable there could be on that absolutely right,
was it generosity or was it crisis and a lack
of support in our country to women in need and
our lack of support with prenatal care and posting kid.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
That you shouldn't count that. Yeah, I think this is Yeah,
sometimes adoptive parents have a hard time admitting that that's
the truth, you know that maybe it's not generosity, but
it's the systemic inequities, it's poverty, which I think poverty
should never be a reason why someone has to place
(16:39):
a kid for adoption. But from an adoptive parents perspective,
it's hard, perhaps because the child is like the love
of your life. You know, I've seen you in Dakota,
so sweet, she like loves to give you, like practically.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Exactly every day she attacks.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
So it can be hard to both love your child
like there yours and kind of belong to you, which
I don't like that language, and at the same time
understand that the birth parents perhaps could have parented them
if we had things set up a little bit different
in our society.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, I mean I don't think that's always the case,
but I do think that that the systemic reality of
adoption can't be ignored. I mean, it can't be ignored,
and it often is. You know, recently I fell into
adoptee tick. I know you have, Oh honey, I got
(17:42):
beat up pretty bad in there, you know, I went
in there lodiodop do adoption, I'm for adoption, let me
go in, and it was like Satan has arrived in
our mixed I was totally unprepared for the lashing that
I received there. But I think there is in some
ways an unfair assessment of adoptive parents from adoptees right,
(18:09):
not of their own, of us in general as a unit.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I wouldn't say that it's like unfair, but I absolutely
agree that many adoptees that finally have a pulpit to speak,
have lumped adoptive parents all into one. It's not individual
and that all yeah, in the ways that many adoptees
were yelling out all the time, one adoptee story does
(18:34):
not make everyone's story. Like we are unique and we
want everyone to understand that. I do agree that we
haven't lent that same sense to adoptive parents, but I
kind of think we're in our terrible twos. As an adoptee,
I agree.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I kind of said that too. I said, I feel
like it's not like you don't it's like you you
are not able to hand any criticism or pushback right
so that it's almost like they were skinless. Their nerves
were right there, right, and I felt like I wanted
to hug them, truthful. I wanted to go, come here
like you had been with a two year old, exactly
(19:15):
what happened to you? Come here? You're okay, tell me,
you know, yes, But but it was an interesting lesson
and it was not a topic that I had stayed
away from before, so of course I was willing to engage.
And then i'd say something else that I thought was right,
and they would be that's wrong too, And Okay, I'm
gonna tap out. Okay, I'm just gonna tap out and
(19:37):
do a little podcast on my own. And here you are.
There's wonderful, a wonderful part. Here's how I read a book,
just so you know, I just fold it right where
I have and I pointed to a lawn. And I
loved when you were talking about this girl Addie that
you mentor and what she said. You know, she wrote
(20:01):
through her parents' email and it said, I really want
to talk to you because you're kind of like me.
You are brown and grew up with white parents, and
you were adopted from foster care. I want to know
if you can help me find out how much I costed.
I've asked my parents, but my parents don't exactly tell me.
Do you know how much you've costed? Yes? Do you
think we were the same price?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
My mentoring relationship with her name isn't Addie, but it's
Addie in the book.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
It was just so precious. She has such a huge
vocabulary and imagination, and it's so interesting when you kind
of get that combination of someone who's adopted has this
unnatural beginning to their life, and like their brain works
a little bit differently, whether it's because of some trauma
(20:51):
in utero or because of neurodivergence or something like that.
But I have so many adoptees that I mentor who
have this unique quality about themselves, and they're able to
have really big conversations like sometimes the adults aren't even
ready for. So, yeah, how much did I cost? Question?
For her? We ended up talking about I was teaching
(21:16):
her about what a home study is and how adoptive
parents have to get one done to make sure that
they're safe and will love you and all of these things,
and that that costs money, you know, And so we
were having that conversation, which I think she really loved
too to just understand. Like for so many adoptees, the
(21:36):
question really is, how does this all work right?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Right? How did I get to you?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
I think I wrote about this in my book, But
when I got to meet my foster mom, who, similarly
to you, loves loving on babies, it was an overwhelming
experience meeting my foster mom. I mean truly, my body
felt like what I thought it would feel like meeting
my birth mom. I was just like, I know this person.
(22:07):
I wanted to be really close to her, like touching
her leg when we were out at dinner I had
I couldn't get close enough. We're very different politically, ideologically,
our world views are really different, Like we don't agree
probably on many things, but my goodness, I want to
(22:28):
be near her all the time. I actually credit her
for my ability to have a healthy marriage and attach
well to others. My adoptive parents surely had a lot
to do with that as well. But I think that
time period of zero to one, when she just gave
the unconditional value right. It wasn't the sense that I
(22:48):
hear from some foster parents where it's like they say,
I'm not gonna let myself get too attached because it's
going to be so hard when I have to give
them away. My foster parents like did the opposite, and
I am so thankful for it.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
So it's like she felt like home to you.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
She really did. She does. I wish she didn't live
across the country. It's right, an amazing, that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Speaking of that, of what did you How was the
experience of meeting your birth mother in regards to what
you perceived it might be? And maybe this is a
good time to talk about ghost kingdom and the whole
concept of it, the ghost kingdom.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I mean, yeah, my whole life growing up in this
closed adoption, I had to fantasize and imagine who my
birth parents were and where I came from. So for me,
my birth dad was Magic Johnson because he has this
humongous smile just like I do, and he plays basketball
just like I did. And I decided that halle Berry
(23:53):
was my birth mother. I don't have any great reasoning
other than like, why not.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
She's gorgeous and why not chose that halle Berry too, frankly, And.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So those were my peoples. When I finally found my
birth mother and knew I was going to meet her.
I I wasn't hoping for like Halle Berry. I knew
more than that. I knew that my birth mother struggled
(24:22):
in so many ways, but I certainly didn't expect her
to be really kind of gruff and deny me. She
just said, I don't know who you are. You need
to leave. You're not my I'm not related to you.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And now wait a second, let's go back. Did you
call her? Did she know you were looking for? Did
you find her on an adoptee connect board? How did
you find her?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I found my biological father first, because he has a
really unique name, and I found him through the Internet.
There was one spot in my adoption paperwork where his
first name was not whited out. They accidentally forgot and
so that name and the name is Oterius, I plugged
(25:09):
in with. I knew his last name was four letters long,
and so I had written Oterius Chattanooga, Tennessee, where I
was born, And up came this paper about a guy
who was struggling and his name was Oterius Bell, and
I was like.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Same, God, You're like Colombo, look at you? How did
you do The.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Only person in Johanna, Tennessee with that name, so I
found him and then he kind of led us to her.
But I also had her address, So with that address,
I sent picture of myself a letter and then we
showed up. So it wasn't like she had no idea.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
No idea, right, but you had not communicated with her before, you.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Had no way to do it. I wish I did.
I wish I could have done it some other way.
That's one of the big injustices. I feel like from
the agency's standpoint that they sure could have supported me
more and not had to ambush my birth mother.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
But correct I. So she was unprepared and she was unkind.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, and so the kindness part in my ghost kingdom.
You know, I have a pretty peppy disposition, like smile
a lot, running around. I'm always just quite happy in general.
And so my parents, I think throughout my whole life
would assume that as much for my birth family too,
(26:37):
like you must have gotten this from somewhere. You wake
up in the morning and you're just like ready to
run around and where did you Where did that come from?
So it was a surprise when my birth mother was
had that disposition.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, and so you had sort of in your ghost
Kingdom fantasy of what your family of origin was. They
were like you, yeah, And to find that they were
not probably crushing.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yes, although my birth dad and I are so similar,
so that was really exciting. It was also surprising because
I had really focused most of my energy on my
birth mother, and I really don't know why that is,
but I had not really thought of my birth dad
much at all. And so, yeah, I wanted I wanted
(27:24):
a mirror. I had never had one. I wanted it
so badly, so important, so important. My parents have one
biological daughter, and she has these beautiful blue eyes, just
like my dad, and so my whole life I would
listen to everyone else's comment on their blue eyes and
how they were so alike, and it's so true and
they're beautiful, but I just hearing that, I would just
(27:48):
long for it, like somebody tell me that I look
like someone else.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Exactly, never looking into a face similar to yours. Your
whole life has got to be some kind of trauma.
I mean, you know, it really is. So did you
ever make peace with it? Did it ever come around?
And she said, hey, I needed some time and now
we're okay.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Exactly a year went by where she had to tell
everybody that she had done this. She had kept her
pregnancy a secret, so no one knew. And I have
three other siblings. She has three kids. There's actually four
one we can't find still, but they didn't know, and
so she just had to make amends all over the place.
So she took a year to do that and then
(28:31):
called me and said, yes, I am your birth mother
and I want you to come back, and I want
to meet you and I want to do it right.
So we had this big barbecue. It was really cool,
and it was just the most beautiful thing seeing my
mom and my birth mom together and each of them
telling each other, like my mom my birth mom was
saying to my mom like, thank you so much for
(28:53):
raising her, at the same time that my adoptive mom
was telling my birth mom thank you so much for
having her. And they were basically just saying like, thank
you for doing what I couldn't do. And I loved
that feels whole for me seeing both of those women
in the same place caring for each other. Is I
(29:15):
still picture that moment? I love it?
Speaker 1 (29:19):
And how is your relationship now? Did it change your
relationship at all with your parents? Because I was never
one of those parents who felt threatened by the children
looking for their birth parents.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
My parents recently went on a road trip and they
went and saw my birth mom and Biloxi, Mississippi, and
they texted me a photo of all of them together
getting dinner. It was so cute. I loved it. But yeah,
we definitely started. We are still in touch. My birth
father passed away, so I had seven years with him,
(29:52):
but I am close to the rest of his family,
my aunts and uncles, and they love having me as
part of the family. It's a really beautiful extended family,
but it's marred by the difficulty of me not really
knowing my culture and not knowing our family history that
(30:14):
kind of knows.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
It's it's definitely, it's a definite hard thing. My daughter
Chelsea has had a hard time, and you know, she's
doing well now, thank God. But you know, when there's
substance in uterow, it's a challenge that people lie to
you about always. Nobody says, here's the possibility or here's
(30:39):
the probability of what will occur. You know, I don't
know so many friends, so many unknowns, but I mean
everyone says.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
For you, the people the adoptive parents who I work
with that have the greatest difficulty saying what you said, Like,
you know, I'm not intimidated or threatened by my kids
biological parents. Those folks are often people who have struggled
with infertility. They're often heterosexual couples and haven't kind of
(31:10):
dealt with the sadness that they couldn't have a biological
child that they wanted so bad. I feel like gay
parents oftentimes don't come in with that same feeling and
therefore are a bit more open.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
You know, No, And I knew, I mean, you know,
all my siblings have kids, so it's a very Irish
fertile family. I knew I could have had a baby
if I wanted to. I just knew. There was a
teacher in seventh grade, which was two years after my
mother died, who took me under her wing, and you know,
got me my first training bar and got me tampons
when I got my period, And yeah, she was a mother,
(31:47):
you know, And she too died of breast cancer. But
when I was much older, and I already had most
of my children, and so I knew that love made
of family. I didn't think you need to have the blood.
And I also, you know, was terrified of giving birth.
I had seen her, that teacher of mine, in labor
and I was watching her other children, and I thought,
(32:09):
God almighty, I was sixteen years old. I thought, I
am never pushing a watermelon out of my Hubah. I
don't care what you say, I'm not doing it. You know,
she had like an old birth thing. It was terrible.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So it is interesting you had a sense of adoption
slash foster care with your mom dying at a young age.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
That really, yes, yes, And we had neighbors take care
of us, We had teachers take care of us. You know.
My father was at work. My grandmother was non couldn't
see and couldn't really hear, and she was there, which
made it great to come home not to an empty house.
But it wasn't like she was a grandmother who could
cook or you know, you'd walk down the stairs, she'd go,
(32:47):
timmy doll, who is that Marie Eddie? She'd like name
all the kids in the fit because she couldn't see
more than ten feet, you know, but she was there.
Nana was always there. And when my mother was gone,
you know, was her mother. She had lived with us
my whole life, and that was painful as a little
ten year old to see the pain on the seventy
(33:08):
something year anoman's face. That was unspoken because that was
the Irish way, you know, talk about the death and
the family, you know, talk about what's going on in
the house.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
You got to just yeah, it's such formative therapy, like
formative years for you to have that experience. And then
and it kind of tracks with the research that I've done.
You know, families who are people who want to become
adoptive parents, who've had nuclear really kind of stable, nuclear
(33:38):
family lives their whole life. It is a huge pivot
to understand other people comparent other people's kids and that's fine,
Like that's not they're not used to it.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah. Yeah. Culturally, I think different cultures people respond in
different ways. You know, I don't know if you find,
but but you know, I have found in my friends
with Latin families or Black families, the the uh kind
of the cultural communication so different than Irish Catholic families
(34:12):
from the seventies right where where there was no Oprah
yet there was no let's talk about our feelings. There
was you know, nobody was saying oh, there's the mother's gone.
And when you talk about prenatal what did you name
it again? Prenatal culture natal culture shock, just like postnatal
(34:32):
culture shock, right that. Yeah, I totally get that. I
totally understand. You know, when when Parker, I read everything
I could read when I was adopting Parker, and they
said how the baby really knows the birth mother's scent
and heartbeat and and but mostly the smell. And they
recommended that when you get a baby newborn, that you
(34:54):
make sure you do skin to skin and that you
don't shower for yourself because they will get your smell
for like seven days. And I did the whole thing,
I think, you know, I was like smelly, and I thought,
this is going to imprint him. He's going to imprint
to me, you know. But I did anything that I
read that could try to negate the primal wound of adoption.
(35:20):
But of course there's that famous book and it is
a primal wound. And I think that it's it's an
unfair or ignorant of adoptive parents to not know that.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
And it's really unrealistic and almost kind of hurtful to
try to just like sweep over it. Or pretend like
it can be fixed. I think part of what I
love working with adoptees mentoring adoptees is there's not that
sense that I think we feel with adoptive parents sometimes,
(35:53):
which is like that they want to fix us or
fix the parts that we got from our birth parents
that are negative. And instead it's like we talked to
each other and kind of just understand that some things
just are. You know that you can't go back and
change the things that our birth parents did when we
(36:14):
were inside of them, and that's sad, and that's period,
end of story. There's not a fix to it. I
think that's why I'm building this mentoring society, because therapy
is so helpful for so many adoptees, of course, but
I how there was this need for something in between,
not a friendship, but not a therapist, because there were
(36:37):
certain things that we don't try to fix. They just are.
And the people that are best at sitting with it,
I feel like our other adoptees who get it.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yes, I agree, it's interesting, although it's totally not the
same and I'm not saying it is, so please adoptee TikTok,
don't attack me. But you know, I see it through
the need of my youngest child, who has autism. She
wants to be around other autistic kids all the time.
And I said, do you know why you want to?
She goes, Mom, it's my culture. Oh she could say that,
(37:11):
and I was like, she said that at ten years old,
it's my culture. And then when I took her to
one of these vidcons where all the kids who watch
the same video games, you know, it's like an animated
show with objects, and I'm like, okay, you know, they say,
get into their world as much as you can. So
off we went to this eight She's sitting there with
(37:31):
so many kids so much like her, and she looked
at me and she said, this is it.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Oh just I was like feeling at peace, feeling at home.
This happens in I don't know if you know this,
but there are these things called transracial adoption camps that
happen all over US. I do, Okay, this phenomenon is
so clearly seen there where there are these I can
(37:56):
imagine wicking brown kids all over the place, and one
of them will yell to their mom and a white
person will respond like, what do you need? And nobody
flinches or goes up to the kid AND's like, wait,
that's your mom. Wait when in the world.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah exactly, they just and so there's this freedom where
they can just play soccer or do the rope's course
and yell for their mom and not have to worry
about that moment where people are like, huh, how does
that work? Yeah exactly, so beautiful exactly, and everyone finding
acceptance in their in their story and others like them.
(38:31):
I mean, the Internet has been wonderful and terrible in
that way, but the wonderful way is to connect people
who who want that sense of community and who find
it in the similarity of their livestyle. So what you're
doing is very important, Angela Tucker, and I'm thankful that
you are here and the book that everybody can go
(38:52):
out and buy is you should be grateful Stories of
Race Identity and transracial Adoption. Angela Tucker, you were delightful.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thank you, Rosie. This is so fun.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
We'll be back with questions from you the loyal listeners. Well,
(39:28):
thanks for sticking around. I hope that you found our
conversation fascinating and enlightening. I sure did. Now it's question
time hit it, Hey, Rosie.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
This is Gerard and I'm calling you. Calling you, I'm
leaving you a message from Paris, the one in France,
and I just wanted to tell you that I'm so
happy that you're back interviewing, and it's so refreshing to
hear your sense of humor and your outlook on life
again since I've been watching you forever. I'm also from
(40:01):
Long Island, New York, so it's also nice and comforting
to hear your accent, which I'm sure you don't hear
a lot, but it is wonderful to hear being so
far away from my friends and family, but I do
love it here in France. However, I do experience a
lot of misunderstanding as I'm learning the language. I don't
speak French, so I'm currently trying to, but I often
(40:26):
misunderstood incredibly and I wanted to know what situations you've
ever been in where you've been completely misunderstood you and
how you dealt with it, and were you ever really
sort of understood from that experience. But thank you so much.
I appreciate hearing you and all the wonderful conversations you've
(40:48):
been having. Thanks again, Bye for oh.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
War avoirrad a very nice message, Thank you, sweetheart. Well
how did you end up in Paris? How did you
end up there? What do you do in Paris? Is
one able to live in Paris and work? Or do
you have dual citizenship or something? I have a lot
of questions for you, I really do. But what can
I say? Not understood? I remember this from a long
(41:13):
time ago, when Patty Lapone opened in London Sunset Boulevard.
I went over to see her, and afterwards a bunch
of New Yorkers and Patty and I think Scott Whitman
and Mark Shaman and a bunch of us Walter Bobby,
we were walking through the theater district to go to
the Joe Allens that I think was open then. I
(41:34):
don't know if it's still open now in London. But
we were all talking saying how great we thought she was,
and there was a man in front of us and
he goes, will you stop speaking? Your accent is terrible.
I can't believe it. You'll make him all EASi please,
And I was like, I'm really sorry, that's just the
(41:54):
way I talk. And he's like, well don't it's horrible.
So I don't know if that's about understanding me or
just he was horrified by my New York accent that
you love so much. So you know, different strokes for
different folks, Gerard. But whenever I am in a place
where someone doesn't speak the language, I'm one of those
annoying people that overdo trying to communicate or like, I
(42:18):
know a very minimal amount of sign language, and if
someone's death there, of course I got to show them
like ten words. I know. It's a very annoying part
of me. You know, there's a whole like list of
things that are really annoying that I do that. After
I do them again, I go, God, that was annoying.
You shouldn't do that. But doesn't seem to help, Grard,
(42:39):
doesn't seem to help. Thank you for your lovely message.
I really do appreciate it, and we got time for
one more, dude.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
I think the universe hands you gifts when you need
them the most. In your podcast was a gift to me.
I'm going through a hard time selling a house and
moving back to Alabama to take care of my family,
and you have gotten me through some stressful days.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
I did want to.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
Tell you were talking about Dakota and how you were
having a hard time remembering to say they and them,
and it made me feel so much better. I try
to understand those issues. I hate to call them issues.
(43:31):
They're not issues, but you know what I mean. I
try to understand and be cognizant. But there's so much now,
there's so much that we have to be careful with,
and it was refreshing to hear that sometimes even you
get it wrong. That probably sounds weird, but I just
(43:54):
want you to know it made me feel better.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
So thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
And my question is, what the heck you turn fifty
and got a new baby. When I turned fifty, I
got a tattoo and like turned heatonus for ten years.
Well that was when I turned forty, but anyway, I
(44:20):
was just curious what made you decide at fifty years
old to adopt a new baby. Now I'm all about
the babies. I love them too, but I'm kind of
glad mine are grown now.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Thanks dude. I didn't get your name because she called
me dude, so I'll call you a dude right back. Yeah,
you know, I do struggle with the pronouns. And my
kid said, why don't you get they tattooed on your wrist,
and I did, and they said recently, I guess that
tattoo didn't work, you know, because they still mess up.
(44:55):
But I'm trying very hard, and I know it's very
important them, and you know, I'm riding that wave with
them on the same board, getting us safely to the shore,
you know. And why did I adopt again at fifty?
You know, kids are the best things in my life
(45:20):
and world, all of them, all five of them, and
I can't imagine what my life would have been like
without them. And Dakota came to me in a special
way and there we were together and it felt like
(45:43):
the right thing. And it's been the best blessing, the
best gift in my life because it's changed the way
I see the world and being able to stretch that
muscle of the way we see things, being able to
read frame and to understand. Their brain is different, the
(46:10):
way the brain functions is different, their experience in the
world is different, and their autism, although often a challenge,
has been a gift. So thank you for your kind
words and hope that you're okay moving back to take
(46:31):
care of your family. That's a beautiful thing. It's hard.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
We enter the world and they take care of us,
and they exit and we take care of them. And
that's the journey of life. Right, Hey, listen, send us
your questions, comments, and voice memo. Two Onward Rosie at
gmail dot com. I feel bad that some of the
longer ones we can't get in because they're too lengthy.
So try to keep it as short as you can
(46:56):
so that I can answer answer you. If they're a
long question, your long build up, it's hard to edit.
So next week, my buddy, my friend, playwright extraordinaire, screenwriter,
actor and drag legend, Charles Bush. His new memoir Leading
Lady is a tell all. He even tells all about
(47:18):
our time together working on Taboo on Broadway with Boy
George and Boy. That's a juicy chapter. Until next week,
Thank you all for listening. This is Onward with Rosie
O'Donnell
Well, hi everybody, it's me Shaka Khan. I feel for you,
I think I love you. It's Rossio Donald Duck, just
back from over the pond, So don't ways say across
the pond? What do they say? I went to London
to see opening night of the Madonna tour and it
did not disappoint. It was really an unbelievable night. And
(00:33):
she's magical. I don't know what to say. What she's
able to do and for decades of entertainment and music,
hit after hit after hit, her amazing children, the beautiful
video pieces edited together about people dying of AIDS, and
the beautiful thing about her mother and David, her son's mother,
(00:54):
and esther, her little daughter dancing, her daughter Mercy playing
the piano like a virtuoso. Lola was there doing the
vogue bit. It was, you know, it was. It's an amazing,
amazing tour and you'll see it and you'll know the
fact that she's able to do what she does at
(01:15):
sixty five is astounding and I will adore her forever.
There you go. I saw a wonderful musical in London
called Little Big Things, and it's about a young family,
a family of four boys in London and one of
the boys gets injured in a diving accident, one of
(01:39):
the brothers, and what it does to the family and
how he finds himself again. And it's very touching and
very well done. And the performers were epically talented, like
everyone had a more gorgeous voice than the next, and
together their harmonies were uplifting. It was one of to
(02:00):
see that show in the midst of such horrifying news
in the Mid East, and it doesn't seem to be
getting better. There's misinformation and hate coming everywhere and people
trying to present their feelings and I don't know, maybe
not everyone needs to have a knee jerk reaction, you know,
(02:21):
on social media. I don't even know. Listen, we have
a wonderful show today, excellent and fascinating show with Angela Tucker,
who's a very talented young woman. She is an adoption expert.
Her new book, You Should Be Grateful is out now
(02:41):
and it is a wonderful read and it's full of
very insightful things. It's a great book, it's a great
conversation and she's an amazingly gifted woman. She did a
documentary years ago that I loved and we ended up
talking about and think she was on the radio show.
I'm not exactly sure, but I know that I've spoken
(03:01):
to her before and I found her quite enchanting. And
here we are, Angela Tucker. Take a listen, Angela Tucker,
welcome here, Welcome to Onward with Rosio. Don good to
(03:25):
see you. Good to hear of your success and of
what's happened in your life in the time since closing.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Tell everyone a little bit about your family. Tell them
about your situation. The situation, well, the family. The family
is complicated, right, You were adopted by a white family,
and tell everybody about your journey in that area.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, everybody has unique families, right, But yeah, I was
born in Tennessee, placed in foster care right out of
the hospital basically, and then was adopted across the country
to Washington State. My parents, who are white and I'm black.
They adopted a bunch of kids, all from foster care,
and they're really great folks and had a great upbringing.
(04:11):
But in a closed adoption, was just very frustrated that
I couldn't know who I was related to, where I
came from, why I had to be adopted all these questions,
and my parents would do the best they could with
me to wonder as well. You know, they were just
like where did you get your athleticism? And who in
(04:33):
your family has a sweet tooth like you like that?
But that was as much as we could do until
I was twenty one, and I know.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Would you say the conversation your whole childhood had been
that open with your parents, where they were inclusive of
your birth family from the get go, and conversations and
casual conversation like that.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, I think so. They didn't know much and so
they couldn't give me details, but that alone was really
comforting that they would. Really they had this attitude of
like we wish we knew more, kind of like we
love you so much, so we must love the people
who came from who made you exactly and that is
(05:18):
so wonderful. A lot of my work today kind of
centers around that issue and that topic and how it's
actually really hard for some adoptive parents to extend that
kind of grace to their kids at birth families.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, I think it's more prevalent now, you know. My
children are twenty eight, twenty six, twenty three, twenty and
ten and all of them adopted. And I think that
now the conversation is much more inclusive than it was
(05:53):
when you were a kid. How do you think your
parents got to such you know, ahead of their time
ida about adoption. Did they go in wanting open and
that just was not an option or I know, I.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Do think they were ahead of their time a bit,
because certainly the mantra you know, eighties when I was adopted,
but even before that was like shame and secrecy and
the stigma about birth parents. And my parents' philosophy in
their worldview, I think is really never one of ownership
(06:28):
of the kids. Like I don't think they went in
adopting all of us thinking like these are going to
be our kids, But there's more of a philosophy of
like children are all of ours to steward kind of,
and that's it makes sense for them to adopt through
foster care too, where it's really obvious that we had
(06:50):
previous beginnings, we had another family. Whereas with some folks
who adopt, especially like infants or the private adoptions, there's
that tendency to just think of them as blank slates
and you can mold them through your nurture and that
nature will like well, the bad parts of their nature
(07:10):
or their genetics will like fade away, which yeah, they
didn't have that belief.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, that's wonderful. Some adoptees, I think have a burning
desire to define their place in adoption lore hm and
so in the book, in the first part of the
book is the adoptees manifesto. Can you tell people about that.
(07:36):
It's just so great. Thank you so much for reading it.
By the way, Oh, I listen. I'm very interested in
the time.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I know you obviously, Yes, I'm so glad to talk
about it. And I mean, I'm grateful for your advocacy
around LGBTQ parenting. You know, it was so crazy when
we weren't allowing gay couples to foster, like what in
the world.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And so yeah, I know that not only to a foster.
I had a foster kid. I was not allowed to
adapt even though I had raised her.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Ridiculous and that was.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
The law in Florida. And you know, scarily, with all
of these anti gay laws coming out now, is something
we have to still fight against. It's really absurd.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah. Well, my manifesto that I start with in the book. Basically,
it was like a combination of all of these statements
that I was telling myself as I was traveling around
the country with either the film but the documentary about
my search for my birth parents, or just giving a
keynote somewhere, and I felt like I always had to
(08:38):
ramp myself up and give myself a little pep talk
because in the audience, I knew from previous experiences when
I would share the truth about my opinion on adoption
that I think it's really tragic that my birth mother
couldn't keep me. And I would talk about this, I
would say, my adoptive parents are great, but and I'm
(09:02):
grateful for them, but I'm not grateful to have been adopted.
The audience members would often like run up to my
parents if they were in the audience and be like.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And say, I'm so sorry she said, yes, are you
okay with what she said?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Or I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I can't believe she did that. I can't believe her right.
And so after all you did, you did, you took
her from nowhere. She would have had nothing, she would
have been.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Dead if you hadn't gotten her all the exactly And
so I was compiling all these like pep talk statements
for myself, things like, yes, Angela, you can love more
than one set of parents. Yes, Angela, you can wonder
about your birth parents and still have gratitude for your
(09:47):
adoptive family, Like all of these things that I knew
weren't contradictory. But that's the feedback that I felt like
I was getting. And so, having read kind of these
statements to myself for long enough, and then I heard
myself sharing them with other adoptees. As I was mentoring
other adopted people, I'm like, why didn't I make it
(10:07):
into some sort of cute thing that you can put
on the wall. So I had a friend design it,
and it's just like a mantra for me. And I'm
excited because I've had adoptive parents now by this manifesto
and put it on their wall. One of the statements
I wrote says, the pre verbal memories you have with
(10:28):
your first family are real. And then postnatal culture shock exists,
which is just a word that I made up, postnatal
culture shock. But curiosity about our roots is innate, and
I love that it has started creating conversations in adoptive families'
homes because they just have it on the wall that
(10:50):
I feel like otherwise they may not have had those conversations,
so that feels like a win.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well, they wouldn't they wouldn't have known that the conversation
would be welcome. I do think that I and the
rest of the world are sold a lie about adoption.
We're sold a Disney version, fairy tale version. Yes, we're
told a fairy tale version. And it is just as
(11:18):
unfair to all of It's unfair to all of the
in the equation, but the most vulnerable and the one
with the least power is the baby. Is the infant
who has no choice over what happens. And you know,
but I do think adoption is still necessary in our country.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I agree at a much lower rate. I think we
still need other people to care for kids at times. Definitely.
I don't know why we need to terminate people's rights
in order to do it.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, I can see that, although although as an adopt
of parent, I would say, when you are forming and
raising your family, you don't want to open yourself up
in maybe legal ways, or you know, like you don't
(12:15):
when you adopt a child, you don't adopt their whole family,
and that's a culture thing. In other countries, you sort
of do you know, in other countries, people the families
stay in touch, there's visitation. It's not such a legal
formal thing. But you know, some people, most most women,
I would say, and tell me if you agree with this,
(12:36):
most women who give up babies are in crisis.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I would hope. So, I mean, I hope that there's
not a single adoption that happens where there isn't a
true need. Yeah, and that's where sometimes I'm talking in
my books about the micro fictions where adoptive parents will
tell their kids, you know, your birth mom loved you
so much she chose adoption for you. That being really
(13:00):
problematic because for so many adoptees, then you grow up
really not understanding like love, What does love mean? Does
it mean they give me away? And we need to
understand why we are where we are, and so the
truth has to be told in some way, And so
much of my work right now is finding age appropriate
(13:23):
ways to tell a kid that your biological father murdered
someone and so they can't parent you or whatever the
truth is. But we just can't avoid it. But yeah,
you're right.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We'll be right back with more Angela Tucker. I think
(14:00):
think the questions come up, you know, the questions came
up for my kids. My seven year old son said
to me right after a fairy accident in New York
where there was a woman who was next to a
man who got his leg amputated, and she ended up
saving his life and then she disappeared. And I was
reading this to him in the in the car on
(14:20):
the way to work one day, and he said, Mommy,
that lady must have been an angel. And I said,
I think you're right, Monnie, I think she was an angel.
And then he said, why didn't my birth mother want?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Right, because he was thinking of the angel and the
love and the you know, And I came up with
something sort of on the for that. I was not prepared,
but I said, well, Parker, I could tell you this
that your birth mother was not ready to be a mommy.
And God looked inside the tummy and saw that there
was a mix up, and she listened to God because
(14:55):
she's a good, good person. And God found you me
because as I'm your match.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Now that's what's stuck for that day, you know. And
I heard him telling his friends a couple of months
later that you know, some mommies aren't ready to be mommies. Yeah,
and then the mommies who are they get to be them.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I'm like, hmmm. You know, now, in hindsight, I'm not
sure that I hit it out of the park that
I think it's especially.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Difficult being like a famous celebrity for you.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, because yeah, well just.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
The title of my book, you should be grateful, like automatically,
I think any adoptive parents, when people hear the word
adoptive mom, adoptive dad, they just think these people are
like saints.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Saints, yes exactly, are like they do. And people have
said to me all the time, you're so generous. I'm like,
they saved me. I didn't save them, without a doubt.
They were each like a life preserver holding me up,
you know they I did not do anything gracious. I
was the beneficiary of another woman's generosity. But whether the
(16:02):
word generosity is applicable there could be on that absolutely right,
was it generosity or was it crisis and a lack
of support in our country to women in need and
our lack of support with prenatal care and posting kid.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
That you shouldn't count that. Yeah, I think this is Yeah,
sometimes adoptive parents have a hard time admitting that that's
the truth, you know that maybe it's not generosity, but
it's the systemic inequities, it's poverty, which I think poverty
should never be a reason why someone has to place
(16:39):
a kid for adoption. But from an adoptive parents perspective,
it's hard, perhaps because the child is like the love
of your life. You know, I've seen you in Dakota,
so sweet, she like loves to give you, like practically.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Exactly every day she attacks.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
So it can be hard to both love your child
like there yours and kind of belong to you, which
I don't like that language, and at the same time
understand that the birth parents perhaps could have parented them
if we had things set up a little bit different
in our society.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, I mean I don't think that's always the case,
but I do think that that the systemic reality of
adoption can't be ignored. I mean, it can't be ignored,
and it often is. You know, recently I fell into
adoptee tick. I know you have, Oh honey, I got
(17:42):
beat up pretty bad in there, you know, I went
in there lodiodop do adoption, I'm for adoption, let me
go in, and it was like Satan has arrived in
our mixed I was totally unprepared for the lashing that
I received there. But I think there is in some
ways an unfair assessment of adoptive parents from adoptees right,
(18:09):
not of their own, of us in general as a unit.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I wouldn't say that it's like unfair, but I absolutely
agree that many adoptees that finally have a pulpit to speak,
have lumped adoptive parents all into one. It's not individual
and that all yeah, in the ways that many adoptees
were yelling out all the time, one adoptee story does
(18:34):
not make everyone's story. Like we are unique and we
want everyone to understand that. I do agree that we
haven't lent that same sense to adoptive parents, but I
kind of think we're in our terrible twos. As an adoptee,
I agree.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I kind of said that too. I said, I feel
like it's not like you don't it's like you you
are not able to hand any criticism or pushback right
so that it's almost like they were skinless. Their nerves
were right there, right, and I felt like I wanted
to hug them, truthful. I wanted to go, come here
like you had been with a two year old, exactly
(19:15):
what happened to you? Come here? You're okay, tell me,
you know, yes, But but it was an interesting lesson
and it was not a topic that I had stayed
away from before, so of course I was willing to engage.
And then i'd say something else that I thought was right,
and they would be that's wrong too, And Okay, I'm
gonna tap out. Okay, I'm just gonna tap out and
(19:37):
do a little podcast on my own. And here you are.
There's wonderful, a wonderful part. Here's how I read a book,
just so you know, I just fold it right where
I have and I pointed to a lawn. And I
loved when you were talking about this girl Addie that
you mentor and what she said. You know, she wrote
(20:01):
through her parents' email and it said, I really want
to talk to you because you're kind of like me.
You are brown and grew up with white parents, and
you were adopted from foster care. I want to know
if you can help me find out how much I costed.
I've asked my parents, but my parents don't exactly tell me.
Do you know how much you've costed? Yes? Do you
think we were the same price?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
My mentoring relationship with her name isn't Addie, but it's
Addie in the book.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
It was just so precious. She has such a huge
vocabulary and imagination, and it's so interesting when you kind
of get that combination of someone who's adopted has this
unnatural beginning to their life, and like their brain works
a little bit differently, whether it's because of some trauma
(20:51):
in utero or because of neurodivergence or something like that.
But I have so many adoptees that I mentor who
have this unique quality about themselves, and they're able to
have really big conversations like sometimes the adults aren't even
ready for. So, yeah, how much did I cost? Question?
For her? We ended up talking about I was teaching
(21:16):
her about what a home study is and how adoptive
parents have to get one done to make sure that
they're safe and will love you and all of these things,
and that that costs money, you know, And so we
were having that conversation, which I think she really loved
too to just understand. Like for so many adoptees, the
(21:36):
question really is, how does this all work right?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Right? How did I get to you?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
I think I wrote about this in my book, But
when I got to meet my foster mom, who, similarly
to you, loves loving on babies, it was an overwhelming
experience meeting my foster mom. I mean truly, my body
felt like what I thought it would feel like meeting
my birth mom. I was just like, I know this person.
(22:07):
I wanted to be really close to her, like touching
her leg when we were out at dinner I had
I couldn't get close enough. We're very different politically, ideologically,
our world views are really different, Like we don't agree
probably on many things, but my goodness, I want to
(22:28):
be near her all the time. I actually credit her
for my ability to have a healthy marriage and attach
well to others. My adoptive parents surely had a lot
to do with that as well. But I think that
time period of zero to one, when she just gave
the unconditional value right. It wasn't the sense that I
(22:48):
hear from some foster parents where it's like they say,
I'm not gonna let myself get too attached because it's
going to be so hard when I have to give
them away. My foster parents like did the opposite, and
I am so thankful for it.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
So it's like she felt like home to you.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
She really did. She does. I wish she didn't live
across the country. It's right, an amazing, that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Speaking of that, of what did you How was the
experience of meeting your birth mother in regards to what
you perceived it might be? And maybe this is a
good time to talk about ghost kingdom and the whole
concept of it, the ghost kingdom.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I mean, yeah, my whole life growing up in this
closed adoption, I had to fantasize and imagine who my
birth parents were and where I came from. So for me,
my birth dad was Magic Johnson because he has this
humongous smile just like I do, and he plays basketball
just like I did. And I decided that halle Berry
(23:53):
was my birth mother. I don't have any great reasoning
other than like, why not.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
She's gorgeous and why not chose that halle Berry too, frankly, And.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So those were my peoples. When I finally found my
birth mother and knew I was going to meet her.
I I wasn't hoping for like Halle Berry. I knew
more than that. I knew that my birth mother struggled
(24:22):
in so many ways, but I certainly didn't expect her
to be really kind of gruff and deny me. She
just said, I don't know who you are. You need
to leave. You're not my I'm not related to you.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And now wait a second, let's go back. Did you
call her? Did she know you were looking for? Did
you find her on an adoptee connect board? How did
you find her?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I found my biological father first, because he has a
really unique name, and I found him through the Internet.
There was one spot in my adoption paperwork where his
first name was not whited out. They accidentally forgot and
so that name and the name is Oterius, I plugged
(25:09):
in with. I knew his last name was four letters long,
and so I had written Oterius Chattanooga, Tennessee, where I
was born, And up came this paper about a guy
who was struggling and his name was Oterius Bell, and
I was like.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Same, God, You're like Colombo, look at you? How did
you do The.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Only person in Johanna, Tennessee with that name, so I
found him and then he kind of led us to her.
But I also had her address, So with that address,
I sent picture of myself a letter and then we
showed up. So it wasn't like she had no idea.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
No idea, right, but you had not communicated with her before, you.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Had no way to do it. I wish I did.
I wish I could have done it some other way.
That's one of the big injustices. I feel like from
the agency's standpoint that they sure could have supported me
more and not had to ambush my birth mother.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
But correct I. So she was unprepared and she was unkind.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, and so the kindness part in my ghost kingdom.
You know, I have a pretty peppy disposition, like smile
a lot, running around. I'm always just quite happy in general.
And so my parents, I think throughout my whole life
would assume that as much for my birth family too,
(26:37):
like you must have gotten this from somewhere. You wake
up in the morning and you're just like ready to
run around and where did you Where did that come from?
So it was a surprise when my birth mother was
had that disposition.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, and so you had sort of in your ghost
Kingdom fantasy of what your family of origin was. They
were like you, yeah, And to find that they were
not probably crushing.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yes, although my birth dad and I are so similar,
so that was really exciting. It was also surprising because
I had really focused most of my energy on my
birth mother, and I really don't know why that is,
but I had not really thought of my birth dad
much at all. And so, yeah, I wanted I wanted
(27:24):
a mirror. I had never had one. I wanted it
so badly, so important, so important. My parents have one
biological daughter, and she has these beautiful blue eyes, just
like my dad, and so my whole life I would
listen to everyone else's comment on their blue eyes and
how they were so alike, and it's so true and
they're beautiful, but I just hearing that, I would just
(27:48):
long for it, like somebody tell me that I look
like someone else.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Exactly, never looking into a face similar to yours. Your
whole life has got to be some kind of trauma.
I mean, you know, it really is. So did you
ever make peace with it? Did it ever come around?
And she said, hey, I needed some time and now
we're okay.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Exactly a year went by where she had to tell
everybody that she had done this. She had kept her
pregnancy a secret, so no one knew. And I have
three other siblings. She has three kids. There's actually four
one we can't find still, but they didn't know, and
so she just had to make amends all over the place.
So she took a year to do that and then
(28:31):
called me and said, yes, I am your birth mother
and I want you to come back, and I want
to meet you and I want to do it right.
So we had this big barbecue. It was really cool,
and it was just the most beautiful thing seeing my
mom and my birth mom together and each of them
telling each other, like my mom my birth mom was
saying to my mom like, thank you so much for
(28:53):
raising her, at the same time that my adoptive mom
was telling my birth mom thank you so much for
having her. And they were basically just saying like, thank
you for doing what I couldn't do. And I loved
that feels whole for me seeing both of those women
in the same place caring for each other. Is I
(29:15):
still picture that moment? I love it?
Speaker 1 (29:19):
And how is your relationship now? Did it change your
relationship at all with your parents? Because I was never
one of those parents who felt threatened by the children
looking for their birth parents.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
My parents recently went on a road trip and they
went and saw my birth mom and Biloxi, Mississippi, and
they texted me a photo of all of them together
getting dinner. It was so cute. I loved it. But yeah,
we definitely started. We are still in touch. My birth
father passed away, so I had seven years with him,
(29:52):
but I am close to the rest of his family,
my aunts and uncles, and they love having me as
part of the family. It's a really beautiful extended family,
but it's marred by the difficulty of me not really
knowing my culture and not knowing our family history that
(30:14):
kind of knows.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
It's it's definitely, it's a definite hard thing. My daughter
Chelsea has had a hard time, and you know, she's
doing well now, thank God. But you know, when there's
substance in uterow, it's a challenge that people lie to
you about always. Nobody says, here's the possibility or here's
(30:39):
the probability of what will occur. You know, I don't
know so many friends, so many unknowns, but I mean
everyone says.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
For you, the people the adoptive parents who I work
with that have the greatest difficulty saying what you said, Like,
you know, I'm not intimidated or threatened by my kids
biological parents. Those folks are often people who have struggled
with infertility. They're often heterosexual couples and haven't kind of
(31:10):
dealt with the sadness that they couldn't have a biological
child that they wanted so bad. I feel like gay
parents oftentimes don't come in with that same feeling and
therefore are a bit more open.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
You know, No, And I knew, I mean, you know,
all my siblings have kids, so it's a very Irish
fertile family. I knew I could have had a baby
if I wanted to. I just knew. There was a
teacher in seventh grade, which was two years after my
mother died, who took me under her wing, and you know,
got me my first training bar and got me tampons
when I got my period, And yeah, she was a mother,
(31:47):
you know, And she too died of breast cancer. But
when I was much older, and I already had most
of my children, and so I knew that love made
of family. I didn't think you need to have the blood.
And I also, you know, was terrified of giving birth.
I had seen her, that teacher of mine, in labor
and I was watching her other children, and I thought,
(32:09):
God almighty, I was sixteen years old. I thought, I
am never pushing a watermelon out of my Hubah. I
don't care what you say, I'm not doing it. You know,
she had like an old birth thing. It was terrible.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So it is interesting you had a sense of adoption
slash foster care with your mom dying at a young age.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
That really, yes, yes, And we had neighbors take care
of us, We had teachers take care of us. You know.
My father was at work. My grandmother was non couldn't
see and couldn't really hear, and she was there, which
made it great to come home not to an empty house.
But it wasn't like she was a grandmother who could
cook or you know, you'd walk down the stairs, she'd go,
(32:47):
timmy doll, who is that Marie Eddie? She'd like name
all the kids in the fit because she couldn't see
more than ten feet, you know, but she was there.
Nana was always there. And when my mother was gone,
you know, was her mother. She had lived with us
my whole life, and that was painful as a little
ten year old to see the pain on the seventy
(33:08):
something year anoman's face. That was unspoken because that was
the Irish way, you know, talk about the death and
the family, you know, talk about what's going on in
the house.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
You got to just yeah, it's such formative therapy, like
formative years for you to have that experience. And then
and it kind of tracks with the research that I've done.
You know, families who are people who want to become
adoptive parents, who've had nuclear really kind of stable, nuclear
(33:38):
family lives their whole life. It is a huge pivot
to understand other people comparent other people's kids and that's fine,
Like that's not they're not used to it.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah. Yeah. Culturally, I think different cultures people respond in
different ways. You know, I don't know if you find,
but but you know, I have found in my friends
with Latin families or Black families, the the uh kind
of the cultural communication so different than Irish Catholic families
(34:12):
from the seventies right where where there was no Oprah
yet there was no let's talk about our feelings. There
was you know, nobody was saying oh, there's the mother's gone.
And when you talk about prenatal what did you name
it again? Prenatal culture natal culture shock, just like postnatal
(34:32):
culture shock, right that. Yeah, I totally get that. I
totally understand. You know, when when Parker, I read everything
I could read when I was adopting Parker, and they
said how the baby really knows the birth mother's scent
and heartbeat and and but mostly the smell. And they
recommended that when you get a baby newborn, that you
(34:54):
make sure you do skin to skin and that you
don't shower for yourself because they will get your smell
for like seven days. And I did the whole thing,
I think, you know, I was like smelly, and I thought,
this is going to imprint him. He's going to imprint
to me, you know. But I did anything that I
read that could try to negate the primal wound of adoption.
(35:20):
But of course there's that famous book and it is
a primal wound. And I think that it's it's an
unfair or ignorant of adoptive parents to not know that.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
And it's really unrealistic and almost kind of hurtful to
try to just like sweep over it. Or pretend like
it can be fixed. I think part of what I
love working with adoptees mentoring adoptees is there's not that
sense that I think we feel with adoptive parents sometimes,
(35:53):
which is like that they want to fix us or
fix the parts that we got from our birth parents
that are negative. And instead it's like we talked to
each other and kind of just understand that some things
just are. You know that you can't go back and
change the things that our birth parents did when we
(36:14):
were inside of them, and that's sad, and that's period,
end of story. There's not a fix to it. I
think that's why I'm building this mentoring society, because therapy
is so helpful for so many adoptees, of course, but
I how there was this need for something in between,
not a friendship, but not a therapist, because there were
(36:37):
certain things that we don't try to fix. They just are.
And the people that are best at sitting with it,
I feel like our other adoptees who get it.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yes, I agree, it's interesting, although it's totally not the
same and I'm not saying it is, so please adoptee TikTok,
don't attack me. But you know, I see it through
the need of my youngest child, who has autism. She
wants to be around other autistic kids all the time.
And I said, do you know why you want to?
She goes, Mom, it's my culture. Oh she could say that,
(37:11):
and I was like, she said that at ten years old,
it's my culture. And then when I took her to
one of these vidcons where all the kids who watch
the same video games, you know, it's like an animated
show with objects, and I'm like, okay, you know, they say,
get into their world as much as you can. So
off we went to this eight She's sitting there with
(37:31):
so many kids so much like her, and she looked
at me and she said, this is it.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Oh just I was like feeling at peace, feeling at home.
This happens in I don't know if you know this,
but there are these things called transracial adoption camps that
happen all over US. I do, Okay, this phenomenon is
so clearly seen there where there are these I can
(37:56):
imagine wicking brown kids all over the place, and one
of them will yell to their mom and a white
person will respond like, what do you need? And nobody
flinches or goes up to the kid AND's like, wait,
that's your mom. Wait when in the world.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah exactly, they just and so there's this freedom where
they can just play soccer or do the rope's course
and yell for their mom and not have to worry
about that moment where people are like, huh, how does
that work? Yeah exactly, so beautiful exactly, and everyone finding
acceptance in their in their story and others like them.
(38:31):
I mean, the Internet has been wonderful and terrible in
that way, but the wonderful way is to connect people
who who want that sense of community and who find
it in the similarity of their livestyle. So what you're
doing is very important, Angela Tucker, and I'm thankful that
you are here and the book that everybody can go
(38:52):
out and buy is you should be grateful Stories of
Race Identity and transracial Adoption. Angela Tucker, you were delightful.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thank you, Rosie. This is so fun.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
We'll be back with questions from you the loyal listeners. Well,
(39:28):
thanks for sticking around. I hope that you found our
conversation fascinating and enlightening. I sure did. Now it's question
time hit it, Hey, Rosie.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
This is Gerard and I'm calling you. Calling you, I'm
leaving you a message from Paris, the one in France,
and I just wanted to tell you that I'm so
happy that you're back interviewing, and it's so refreshing to
hear your sense of humor and your outlook on life
again since I've been watching you forever. I'm also from
(40:01):
Long Island, New York, so it's also nice and comforting
to hear your accent, which I'm sure you don't hear
a lot, but it is wonderful to hear being so
far away from my friends and family, but I do
love it here in France. However, I do experience a
lot of misunderstanding as I'm learning the language. I don't
speak French, so I'm currently trying to, but I often
(40:26):
misunderstood incredibly and I wanted to know what situations you've
ever been in where you've been completely misunderstood you and
how you dealt with it, and were you ever really
sort of understood from that experience. But thank you so much.
I appreciate hearing you and all the wonderful conversations you've
(40:48):
been having. Thanks again, Bye for oh.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
War avoirrad a very nice message, Thank you, sweetheart. Well
how did you end up in Paris? How did you
end up there? What do you do in Paris? Is
one able to live in Paris and work? Or do
you have dual citizenship or something? I have a lot
of questions for you, I really do. But what can
I say? Not understood? I remember this from a long
(41:13):
time ago, when Patty Lapone opened in London Sunset Boulevard.
I went over to see her, and afterwards a bunch
of New Yorkers and Patty and I think Scott Whitman
and Mark Shaman and a bunch of us Walter Bobby,
we were walking through the theater district to go to
the Joe Allens that I think was open then. I
(41:34):
don't know if it's still open now in London. But
we were all talking saying how great we thought she was,
and there was a man in front of us and
he goes, will you stop speaking? Your accent is terrible.
I can't believe it. You'll make him all EASi please,
And I was like, I'm really sorry, that's just the
(41:54):
way I talk. And he's like, well don't it's horrible.
So I don't know if that's about understanding me or
just he was horrified by my New York accent that
you love so much. So you know, different strokes for
different folks, Gerard. But whenever I am in a place
where someone doesn't speak the language, I'm one of those
annoying people that overdo trying to communicate or like, I
(42:18):
know a very minimal amount of sign language, and if
someone's death there, of course I got to show them
like ten words. I know. It's a very annoying part
of me. You know, there's a whole like list of
things that are really annoying that I do that. After
I do them again, I go, God, that was annoying.
You shouldn't do that. But doesn't seem to help, Grard,
(42:39):
doesn't seem to help. Thank you for your lovely message.
I really do appreciate it, and we got time for
one more, dude.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
I think the universe hands you gifts when you need
them the most. In your podcast was a gift to me.
I'm going through a hard time selling a house and
moving back to Alabama to take care of my family,
and you have gotten me through some stressful days.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
I did want to.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
Tell you were talking about Dakota and how you were
having a hard time remembering to say they and them,
and it made me feel so much better. I try
to understand those issues. I hate to call them issues.
(43:31):
They're not issues, but you know what I mean. I
try to understand and be cognizant. But there's so much now,
there's so much that we have to be careful with,
and it was refreshing to hear that sometimes even you
get it wrong. That probably sounds weird, but I just
(43:54):
want you to know it made me feel better.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
So thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
And my question is, what the heck you turn fifty
and got a new baby. When I turned fifty, I
got a tattoo and like turned heatonus for ten years.
Well that was when I turned forty, but anyway, I
(44:20):
was just curious what made you decide at fifty years
old to adopt a new baby. Now I'm all about
the babies. I love them too, but I'm kind of
glad mine are grown now.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Thanks dude. I didn't get your name because she called
me dude, so I'll call you a dude right back. Yeah,
you know, I do struggle with the pronouns. And my
kid said, why don't you get they tattooed on your wrist,
and I did, and they said recently, I guess that
tattoo didn't work, you know, because they still mess up.
(44:55):
But I'm trying very hard, and I know it's very
important them, and you know, I'm riding that wave with
them on the same board, getting us safely to the shore,
you know. And why did I adopt again at fifty?
You know, kids are the best things in my life
(45:20):
and world, all of them, all five of them, and
I can't imagine what my life would have been like
without them. And Dakota came to me in a special
way and there we were together and it felt like
(45:43):
the right thing. And it's been the best blessing, the
best gift in my life because it's changed the way
I see the world and being able to stretch that
muscle of the way we see things, being able to
read frame and to understand. Their brain is different, the
(46:10):
way the brain functions is different, their experience in the
world is different, and their autism, although often a challenge,
has been a gift. So thank you for your kind
words and hope that you're okay moving back to take
(46:31):
care of your family. That's a beautiful thing. It's hard.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
We enter the world and they take care of us,
and they exit and we take care of them. And
that's the journey of life. Right, Hey, listen, send us
your questions, comments, and voice memo. Two Onward Rosie at
gmail dot com. I feel bad that some of the
longer ones we can't get in because they're too lengthy.
So try to keep it as short as you can
(46:56):
so that I can answer answer you. If they're a
long question, your long build up, it's hard to edit.
So next week, my buddy, my friend, playwright extraordinaire, screenwriter,
actor and drag legend, Charles Bush. His new memoir Leading
Lady is a tell all. He even tells all about
(47:18):
our time together working on Taboo on Broadway with Boy
George and Boy. That's a juicy chapter. Until next week,
Thank you all for listening. This is Onward with Rosie
O'Donnell
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