November 7, 2023 • 47 mins
This week's conversation is with the phenomenally talented Cheryl Dunye, an award winning filmmaker and television director. Rosie's love and respect for Cheryl's 1st film, 'The Watermelon Woman' (its groundbreaking style is now known as Dunyementry*) is the spark that ignites this gabfest.
But as all great conversations go; they wander thru just about every topic under the sun, including working together on the ill-fated 'American Gigolo', motherhood, being union strong, and vid-cons!(*Dunyementary, is a hybrid of narrative, documentary, comedy, and autobiography style of filmmaking with a narrative that may not exactly be true but gives voice to real people and events that have never been represented)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey, everybody, it's me Rosi O'Donnell and we are in November.
Can you believe that we're in November? And my kiddo
did thinks it's very funny to say that Thanksgiving is
the middle child between October and Christmas. That's what they
(00:29):
said to me last night. I'm like, I suppose that
is true. So we lost Matthew Perry. And you know,
I was lucky enough to get to know him during
COVID when we both were in a group that you know,
got together and zoomed and we're still together the group
(00:54):
and we check in in the morning and at night,
and so it was a privilege to get to know
him and to love him, and to watch him fate
so hard, you know, for his health in every way,
and he's a champion. He's a champion. And so many
(01:15):
of us, nearly all of us, have someone that we
love who struggles with addiction, a disease of addiction, and
it's so easy to just say they lack the willpower,
they are somehow morally corruptible. It's just a lie, you know,
it's just a lie. It's a disease. And I think
(01:39):
his body had just had enough. You know, read his book.
It's beautiful, That's what I can say. Read his book,
and he was a beautiful, beautiful man. He was an
amazing man, and that book tells you all about who
he is from you know, his own heart. Yeah, onward, onward.
(02:00):
What do you do. It's so hard when you lose
a friend, and especially when somehow the friend is younger
than you. It's hard for me to believe that so
much has changed since I was a kid, and so
much hasn't. I remember being horrified at the war in
(02:23):
Vietnam and it was on TV and I was a
little kid. I couldn't get away from it, so I
stopped watching the news. And I kind of have to
do that now. Self preservation, you know, stay informed, but
don't overload all your circuits all the time and try
to fix things that are not ours to fix. Right,
(02:47):
as they say in all the AA programs, the wisdom
to know the difference, right that things I can and
cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. But
I'm inspired so many people, and that's what I'm trying
to now. Just absorb, stay present. I'm in my life,
(03:11):
I'm a grown up. I'm here, this is happening. We've
gotten through all the other tough days. We'll get through these.
You know, I have no answers. Nobody has the answers
other than other than you know, survive today, survive tomorrow.
(03:38):
But I don't have any answers. And I know everybody's
in pain and everybody's raw, and I'm respecting everyone's need
for peace right now, including my own.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You know.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, we have a good Joe, really good Joe. A
friend of mine, Cheryl Dounie, who is a world renowned
African American director, writer, and actor, and we met on
the set of American Jigelo. She was a guest director,
but I knew of her from her very first film,
Watermelon Woman, which was a groundbreaking self produced movie that
(04:15):
opened a whole new genre in film. And sometimes you
don't know something is missing until someone shows it to you.
And that's kind of what Watermelon Woman did, just one
woman's quest to be truly represented on film. And it's
now part of the permanent collection of Cinema at the
Museum of Modern Art. Yes, MoMA has chosen Watermelon Woman
(04:41):
as part of their permanent collection, and that's pretty amazing.
One note, when we take this it was right after
the writer's strike had ended, and we had very high
hopes that seg after was going to end right away.
But we are still fighting for the good fight, stronger
than ever we can hold on. I'm SAG and AFTRA
(05:01):
and I'm so proud of you, Fran Dresser, the president
of Screen Actors Guild and AFTRA, and I love you
very much, and I'm so proud of how you're standing
tall and fighting for all of us. Right right now
here we are, me and my friend Cheryl Dunier. Hey,
(05:31):
Cheryl Dunier, how are you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I am blessed and happy and happy to be here
with you.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, very good to see you. We got to work
together on American Jiggielow and ill fated, discombobulated show that
you and I were there when they sort of tore
it in half and started saying do this do that
work without a script, But we got through it and
we begin friends. Good to see you.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Onward onward we went, Yes, we did answer that, and
you know it was it was Shows can be hard,
really can be hard. I mean, I'm glad that things
are being renegotiated right now and have landed in favor
of the people, people who really bring bring shows to life.
Who are you know, the directors, the actors fingers crossed
(06:21):
that works out as well as the writers, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
So it was so shocking to me to hear that
the AMPTP thought they could do without the people who
create the things they sell. It shocked me, right, I thought, well,
surely you're not going to be able to robot this
auto room, you know what I'm saying. How how did
(06:48):
they think they were being able to to do it
without the ingredients that you need in the soup?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I have no idea. It is all about capitalism, it
is all about the money. But for us, it's about talent.
So and here I am with the talented.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Rosie and you, the talented you. I mean you you
had a big crossroads in your life where you were
about to become a tenured professor and you got the
bug of doing and directing episodic TV shows, right, And
is it true that the school said to you pick you.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Know, yes, yes, that's a that's a a big crossroad time.
I had just moved to the Bay Area and had
been living here for about five years. I was in LA.
I said, you know, f La, let me move up
here and being with the people and find work and
and get a job as an academic. Finally just land
(07:44):
instead of trying to dance between two worlds. And I
was just really going to go down that path. But
we started, you know, I did bug happened. I started
to get the itch and made some shorts that went
around and and then you know, got into the Academy.
That really was the magic moment when I got into
the Academy with that first wave of new directors that
(08:04):
came in, and met Ava du Rene who was doing
Queen Sugar, and you know, the rest is history there.
She said, you know, do you want to be on
the show? I said yes, and you know at my
school said no, bye. Yes, see, you wouldn't want to
(08:24):
be right right.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
So and was it a decision that you wrestled with
or was it really well I got to go this
is what I have.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
To Well, I think it was a wrestling for me
in particular that I was at this crossroad of a
moment and so was the program. And I was thinking, well,
this could be a great way to bring this to
the film program at San Francisco State University. And I
all name them and they didn't you know, it didn't
(08:54):
work into what they really had me there to do,
which was teach because there's a lot of students there.
I may have cut. This is like one hundred and
fifty students for like intro to you know, filmmaking and video.
And I'm like, you know, walking on front, doing my
little Oprah hour. But but state the universities are not
funded so well, I think it goes back to the
(09:15):
bigger thing. And so these classes are huge and a
lot of the younger you know, faculty end up, regardless
of their talent, you know, doing things that aren't like
sitting in a lab and you know, dealing with you know,
negotiating to make the program bigger, they have to just
teach the bare bones. And I just was ready to
not do that again.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, where did you grow up, Cheryl? So?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I grew up in Old phil I del by a
Philly Yeah yeah, yeah, I was born in Liberya. I
grew up in Philly. And U, you know, was that
little odd black girl. You know, it's like two wound
up and just you know, knowing my little difference. So
(10:00):
I was always out, you know, there was never of
the closet for me except for playing hide and seek
or you know, being in my mama or something like that.
I just never knew why not, So that was right.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Really, do you think that was some kind of self
knowledge or do you think that was the unconditional love
maybe that you had been. I mean, your family was accepting.
They were not giving you any kind of pushback.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
My father was sort of traveling a lot, so he
was in Liberia or Boston or whatnot, so he was
sort of that part time dad. But my mom was
a full time mom. I'll tell you that. Born in
nineteen thirty in Philadelphia and had a whole other generation
of you know what it meant to be, you know,
(10:52):
raise their kids and move them a step forward. So
she was doing that, but I had a whole bunch
of other stuff there, so I was just on a
different track. I was able to be that daughter for
her who you know, got good grades and you know,
made those decisions. But I had my whole other you know,
(11:13):
you know, interior light which became exterior like playing in
the street with kids. I remember, you know, having fun
with kids behind the bushes, you know, my baker at
a very young age. So but there was a moment
where those two things came together, I would say, and
not a bad way. But it was time for me
(11:35):
to go to college, and I literally was looking for
the most queer place I could get into, or a
lesbian place, and for some reason I chose Michigan, Michigan State,
because that's where the I got a lesbian newsletter and
it said Michigan State was the best place to go
because the Women's Music Festival was there, Michigan Women's Festival.
I was like, that must be where lesbians are.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I want to go there, I want And.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Literally when I got there was this the couple who
had the you know po box, you know, that d
of thing.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It was whenever I get hate me and I always
think of that too. It's like three people in a
studio apartment writing the letter, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And so I just, you know, she had that talk
with me and she said, you know, when you go
and you're going to be there, make sure you find
a good, you know, boyfriend. And I said, well, hold, hold,
what if it's a girlfriend, well whatever, you know, and
she just kind of went rolled over it. And I
think she knew. I think she just knew, you know,
And I was already a loud person, an extrovert as
(12:36):
they called it in those times.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Well that's you know, that's pretty ahead of her time
for your mom. When't you say.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yes from that type of you know, black billy girl.
You know, he raised, you know, in the Baptist way,
turned Catholic and just you know, real conservative democrat, you know,
hard night public school teacher.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
You know that's like, yeah, that's like my family too,
and Catholic and you know, but I I never there
was never a discussion about me being gay. But I
think my mother knew as well. Now she died when
I was ten in seventy three, but right before she died,
I signed up to play drums in school and she
(13:18):
would not let me because she said it was a
boy's thing and I didn't have to do so many
boys things. So you know, that was the first and
only thing that I kind of remember or can pick
out about that. You know, again, I was just a
little kid, I was ten, but I was always like
a tomboy. I always played all the sports. I always,
(13:39):
you know, was loudmouthed, New York little spunky kid, you know,
and without a mother and without gender defined roles in
the household, you know, there came a freedom with that
in some ways that I am you know, not happy about. Obviously,
I would rather have had my mother living and grown
(13:59):
up with with that kind of frame as I try
to parent myself and my children now in my sixties,
you know, it's uh, it's something that you always look towards. Now,
is your mom with us still?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Or is my My father passed the African he passed
in the late eighties, and I was, I don't know,
maybe maybe the one of the big girlfriends that I
had at that time, like the first major girlfriend relationship,
and I was just rediscovering my relationship with my father.
And I think this is like eighty seven and she,
(14:34):
you know, I come over to do laundry or something
like that. From college. It was now at Temple University
in Philly and living you know, around the city with girl,
you know, the Gas Street, South.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Street, Stilly l Armor Trading was always playing JO.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I mean, did I have many How many albums do
I have?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
You know, every single Trading?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I had everything. See her as much as I could,
you know, and I just really was just digging into
that light. And we went over and she said, go good,
give your dad a hug, you know, and I did,
and the next day he died. So but he was
sort of my mom was the alpha, so I kind
(15:16):
of followed in steps of that alpha. But with that,
you know, daddy's little girl thing. And I think that
really kept me on that, you know, the track of
being somebody who followed their their visions and drives. And
her thing was love many, trust few, always paddle your
own canoe. She said that to me all the time.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I was like, well, that is a great little saying.
I never heard that love many, trust few always paddle
your own canoe. Yeah, that's pretty intense.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Really when I understood it, I understood it, and it
was like all right bye.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
So ninety six, right when my show premiered, your feature
film debut came out The Watermelon Woman, which I remember vividly.
It was so exciting to see a film about African
American lesbian women unabashedly in love, vibrant and real. It
(16:10):
was the first time that you that I saw a
movie like that. It was groundbreaking, an award winning yes, yes, yes, now.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
The Watermelon Woman was my you know, love child of
lots of labor. I had been working on it as
you would say, my whole life. But going back to
that sort of coming out story, I wanted to tell
a story that was about somebody who was already out.
You know, there was a whole big coming out thing,
even Go Fish, which was like sort of the big
(16:40):
thing before me. Yes, Roasterche and Gwen Turner and and
I was living in New York at that time, and
that sort of you know, little queer little baby Dyke
village of where I met, you know, somebody close to you,
lower east Side. You know, we're all doing activists, fun
stuff living, you know, living.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
With artists, queer artists downtown.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yes, yep, cultural producers at day and at night. You
know what I'm saying. So I had to get in
the game. I had to define myself in that timeline.
And you know, lucky for me, I was receiving a
few grants. I had did a little gig at the
New Museum as a director of a show called Bad Girls.
(17:26):
It was all about women video artists who were doing comedy.
So it was I had put myself in the scene.
And I was just like, now's the time to do
the story about black lesbian A narrative everything doc. I
want to do it. Narrative, and so I looked up
you know, stories ideas. You know, I couldn't find anything
(17:47):
about black lesbians and the Black film History timeline, and
then I couldn't find anything about black lesbians in the
queer history timeline. Vita Russo's so you like closet, and
so I just said, let me just make it up.
You know, I have this history of you know, background
in video art and performance, and I'm comfortable in front
(18:11):
of the camera. I did a lot of short video work,
and so I played Cheryl the video store employee, want
to be filmmaker? Who I you know, I think it
just became meta, right, and there was enough there to
make the sort of use video to tell that story
because I knew how to be on video camp. But
(18:33):
but then I had to sort of figure out film
really quickly and become a screenwriter and wrote a narrative
around Cheryl's romance and situation, which is meta for the
situation I was in with my partner at the time,
who was a whit lesbian, and so it was it
was great, it was really great. Put it out there,
won the Teddy Award in Berlin, and you invited to
(18:55):
museums worldwide, but did not get the recognition in the
you know, the film the independent film world, which.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Is right, well, you were you were an outsider there,
you know, right, you were. Who lives? Who dies? Who
tells your story? If no one's telling your story, there's
no representation of you. How do you even find where
you fit in the world and the culture and life
if your stories are not told. So this was a
groundbreaking film and in a way a mix of film,
(19:24):
friends and documentary all together at once. And you know,
when I saw Precious for the first time, I thought
he's done this as well. He's taking a film and
done it so raw and real that you think you're
watching a documentary. It was like a docu drama, but
but not in the way we usually think of those
(19:45):
two words.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Together, you know, exactly exactly. Yeah, that was a really
powerful I mean, he Lee is you know, he's also
from Billy too. Yeah, been in his presence too around
around that time of Precious. But yeah, it was is
important to show that I existed on my own terms
and that there was a world of black lesbians that
(20:06):
are just living you know, normal funny life. You know,
everything's funny to me too.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Everything's funny. What's the other choice? That's what I ask you.
What is the other choice?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
How do you find now working in the confines of
like the system, you know, like when you come in
you're obviously an independent thinker, filmmaker individual, to come in
and have kind of the lanes be so defined for
you that it almost limits your ability to drive naturally
(20:42):
as you do, you know, artistically, And how do you
find that? Because I thought it would be that you
would go off and just become this independent film star
making independence over and instead you kind of took took
a different turn and you're you know, shows that The Fosters,
which I was on, which you worked on as well,
(21:05):
and with that comes notes from producers and a lot
of involvement, you know, from other people. It's almost like
you're the artist and they're screaming more blue when you're like,
shut up on painting, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Right, right, right, right right? I love that so funny.
I don't know, you know, at this moment for me
as a director on episodic television, it's very easy because
I am the guest. Everybody else has been on the
show for a long time. They know each other in
relationships from the crew to producers to the cast, you know,
(21:40):
And so a director just kind of flies in and
has gone within two weeks and they're on somebody else,
you know, depending on what type of show it is.
But for the most part, you're talking about that time.
So am I going to come in and change the system?
Or am I going to come in and be the
guest and have a lovely time and make everybody feel
you know, feel me and remember me and do the
(22:03):
best thing I can do. So it took a while
to get to that, and I think it's sure. Directors
a while to especially ones who are filmmakers, you know,
I mean, but they bring you in because they want
you as an indie filmmaker with this rich history, and
you know, I play with narrative and now I'm on
a lot of bigger shows, so I know, you know,
all the effects and this and that. So I'm very
(22:26):
happy at this point because it's not my show. And
I really say to everybody, I love you to death.
Complain all you want, but it's not my show.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Right exactly, Not a lot I could do. It's not
my show. I would say that to people to Some
of my friends were talking about you know, the problems
with the show, and they were like the Abos of
the seventies. I'm like, it's not my show, just a cop,
it's not my show.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
It's not my show. I can't. I mean, what the
thing is is to make your own show, and that's
you know, what I'm really trying to do. But it's
about my pay grade too. Is the other thing I
was saying for the strike when I walked out another show,
this is above my pay green and let the people
you know come in. So, I mean it sounds but
I would be right there rehearsing, you know, right there,
(23:14):
you know, making some interesting blocking or you know, talking
to the cast to bring out you know, do my
little Dunia magic with them. But I was not going
to go and change the system. I was going to
deliver more options. Let's shoot the hand, let's shoot the ceiling.
Oh don't forget the light. You said light there, you know,
and then shoot the shoot the way that the show looks.
Because I can't go like.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Exactly, you have to talking head right, you have to
sort of follow the template already established and paint within
that frame, right.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Right, right. I mean, if I went to Bridgerton and
did you know the Junia mentary, like it just didn't work.
You know, it would not work. It just doesn't work.
So you know, how do you then do your thing
within the confounds of the show? I mean you figure
out perform, you figure out you know, camera location, you
figure out you know, as I said, blocking props. I mean,
(24:07):
directors have so much control that you know, once you
figure out, like how you know, to make them color
in a show. And as you were talking about color Bran, yeah,
bring it, bring it.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah. Is there somebody in history that you would like
people to know more about who was like an out
black lesbian in a time when you know, I'm sure
there's many, but is there someone that you like? Oh God,
that's what I want to do. That subject is a
specific individual.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Right Well, I call myself an Audrey Lordian. Yeah, so
good for you, an Audrey Lordian. And I've lived by
you know, her poetry. Audrey lord you know, died in
the early nineties black lesbian poet, poet laud of the
state of New York and or ninety right before she
(24:56):
passed from cancer. You know, lived loud and proud and
doing the thrumples in the fifties and you know whatever
kids are calling them, you know, she was living it
then and then being radical and defining what it means
to be I have a black, feminist, lesbian agenda that's
(25:17):
about love and inclusion.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
People don't know that they know her name. They can
pull out a quote or two, but do they know
like she was blind until the you know, legally blind
until the age of five, didn't speak and until you know,
she was at a public library in Harlem and uh,
the librarian read a book and Audrey said, I want
(25:41):
to read uh, and her mom Caribbean West Indian mom
was just, you know, crying. It's a miracle. So that's
the one. That's the woman, I think, And I'm doing
many things right now, great things to make that a reality.
To adapt one of her novels into a film.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And do you have anyone who you would like to
play her?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Now that's a hard one, Come.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
On, Chanelle Money, I don't know who is to know?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Jane would be great. I mean once you, once I
get it together and figure out, you know who should
be Audrey. Kids are going to come popping life.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yes, without a doubt, without without.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
A doubt, without a doubt.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
We'll be right back with Cheryl Donier. Now, how old
(26:53):
were you when you became a mom?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Thirty three?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Me too, that's what I got. Yeah, it was a
good year that year. It now, was that a big
decision for you? Were you in a partnership? Was it
something that you just wanted to do for yourself or
how did that come about?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
So I'm gonna, you know, turn back the hands of time.
When I you know, definitely I was thinking about being queer.
I always thought I was going to have a kid,
and I thought it happened, would imaginally happened when you
turned twenty one, you just started having kids. I don't
know where the nune's never told us the right thing,
I'm sure, but I definitely knew I was going to
(27:33):
have a kid. I was always making plans. I was
always sort of you know, thinking about what gay men
and even asking them to the point of like, you know,
you've got good geens, tell me whatever. Yet, especially during
the time of Aides, we lost so many wonderful men.
Essex Hempel was a good friend of mine. He was
like somebody who was asked, He's like, no, I can't others.
(27:55):
So it was always on my agenda, regardless of what
I was doing, and it was just finding the right moment.
And I said, all right, the moment's going to be
after I do like my major big thing that was
a watermelon woman, and uh I did it right after
that because you know, and I was a one hit
wonder because I'm a gold star.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Good for you, right, good for you. Yeah, that's a guy.
I have a lot of gold star lesbian's never been
with a man, and they wear it proudly, you know,
as you should, as you should. All right, do you
have a son or a daughter?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
What do I have? Somemun's gender and non performing. So
they are living in Seattle with their partner who's also
they and uh, just starting in the world, I would say,
working as they graduated from Cooper Union in paper making.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Wow, so Cooper Union. That's a fancy.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yard school there and use and useful paper making it is, right,
while figure how to put that on the map. So yeah,
now they're in Seattle and they're a registrar at an
art center and planning to go to grad school. And
so the partner I had at the same time that
samell was born where they were like, oh, I want
(29:14):
to do it, and so we use the same journal.
And so we have a son, and his name is Gabe,
and he too is he went to a college in
New York. I forgot the new I'm sorry. It's also
the menopausal brain. People don't believe me.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
I'm with you on that, honey. I don't have to.
I think I need three more seconds when I watch
Jeopardy now it should be over sixty. You get three
more seconds stance of the question, right, yeah, Now, so
both your kids are non binary.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Well, you know, Gabe is not. He's just he hasn't
really defined himself. I think he's a gamer. So I
think he has a relationship that he's trying to figure
out with the world understood.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Well, my little one is ten, who you know, is
so magical. She has autism. She told me right after
we work together that some of her stuffed animals were
non binary. And I was like, no kidding, I said,
And what she was like nine at the time. I said,
and what does that mean? She says, they're not a
girl and they're not a boy. And I said, okay,
(30:20):
that's fine, that's fine with me. I said, you know,
when I was a girl, there was a thing called
a tomboy, and that's what they called people who felt
not like a girl and not like a boy. And
she goes, so that means your non binary. I said, well,
for me, I'm just gay, but some people, you know,
I understand non binary. Well, now they are? Are they them?
(30:43):
I almost said, she is? Are they them? But they
feel so strongly about this. It's been over a year,
and they recently asked all their friends and everyone else
in their life besides me and one friend of hers,
Judah lives away, to call her Clay to call them Clay,
(31:05):
and that she would like they would like me and
Judah to still call them Dakota. So it's so interesting
to be on this journey that here I am like
a lesbian icon. And my little nine year old says
to me, Mommy, some kids in my class don't even
know their own gender. I'm like, tell them to look
in the mirror when they're in the shower, right, like
(31:27):
a typical idiot. And she says, that's your sex, not
your gender. Sex is binary. Gender is infinite. She was nine, Cheryl,
she was nine years old. She's kind of schooling me
into readjusting my antiquated thinking and opening myself up to
(31:52):
seeing who they are. Because when a kid tells you
who they are, believe them. You know, you gotta believe them.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
You have to. Yeah, I mean that's that's that's your
our future, and that's our the next gen. And we
just have to be there for them whatever and be
imparent them and give them what they need for the
journey after us, which is going to be a hard one.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Do you remember that first love or the first time
you kissed a girl? Did your head explode? Like?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
What?
Speaker 1 (32:20):
What was that?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Like?
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Did you kiss a boy before you kissed a girl?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I think I kissed the boy, but it didn't go well. Yeah,
I did not.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Know you were a little kid. How old were you?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I was maybe it was the promiscuous summer, like twelve
or thirteen and some sort of like little you know,
older than me, little boy who was sort of met
in the golf course at night, that type of thing.
We're all there playing games, and that was just day.
You know, what are you doing? I gotta go home?
(32:56):
It was boring, so right, escape her home. But there
was once I found, you know, figured out my lesbianism
and moved past my crush with you know, the Italian girl.
In high school, I found this older lesbian who I
just Nancy Pertino. I can't even say the name Nancy Pertina.
(33:20):
And she was an anarchist and I just at the
anarchist book shop. And she was like, I can't go
out with you. I can't do anything with you because
you're young. You know, come back in a year when
you when you turn eighteen. So I went back in
a year and I said, are you ready? And so
we had a summer little thing before I went to college.
You know, Good for you, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Good to her for putting up that boundary number one exactly.
Number two. Good for you for knowing what you wanted.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I knew what I wanted, and you know, I knew
it was something that was going to be fulfilling and
that there was desire there as well as a lifestyle
that I believed in. I think that's the whole thing too.
It's like, why why are younger generation is who they are?
They're they're they're they're showing together the politics. It's not
just about who you sleep with. You knows about how
(34:08):
you live your life. It's about who you you know value.
It's a whole bunch of social mares for them to
align to and and feel comfortable in the world with
to find a partner, because you could you could be
you can have fun with an avatar for a long time,
you know exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Put on that virtual reality headset. They're talking about crazy crazy,
how life is so different.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Technology is the hardest thing. Yeah, it sure is.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Do you fight Did you fight that with your gamer son?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
That?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
You know? My kid I think is going to be
an animator or a gamer or it's all about that
world and the depth of knowledge is terrifying, you know. Really,
what she's able, what they are able to tell me,
is going on in the as she she says it
the object show community, because those are the kind of
shows she likes where objects have little faces and they talk,
(35:03):
but there are no people in it. That's what she.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Wants, just voices and just voice.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Will they call him broccoli or they call him cup
and it's a little cup and he's like, hey, how
it going. Let's walk over to the candle And they
walk over to the candle and hell over the candlelight
very much? Yeah, better put you out, you know, like
a it's a crazy little but she has a they
have a whole community that they're you know, invested in.
And I took them to VidCon, you know, which is
(35:33):
like Comic Con but for YouTube stars and what she watches.
And we went in there and she just cut tears
in her eyes and she looked around and she said,
these are my people. This is my culture. This is
my culture.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
That's their culture, and they understand and they seek it
and they can find it online and whatnot. So Gabe
the the Gamer was at once a Brony I know that, yes,
and he also plays magical gathering and he was here
at the I was living in another place which was
very far away from the Bronie Cohn, but I was like,
(36:09):
I am not driving all the way out there. So
he dressed up in his little Bronnie outfit BART, which
is the public transportation system up here in the Bay Area,
all the way to the airport, hopped on a shuttle
to go to this con and play and sing you know,
the Little Bernie.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
My Little Pony song.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I was just like, what the And that's when I
knew he knew what you know he? I mean, this
public system is long, and there are a lot of
people that get on it and say he's dressed in
a little purple you know, wig and minded. He was,
you know, in his teens at that point. But he
loves all the cons he loves, you know, making the
big sword out of paper.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Exactly. I got the con kid here too, exactly right,
the whole Well, Cheryl, you're delightful. I really love talking
to you. I could talk to you all day. I
can't wait till we get to work together. And hopefully
this strike will be over before we even air this podcast.
So yes, I hope I really do. And thank you
(37:10):
for talking to me. Thank you for coming on and
telling everybody about you and who you are and what
you do, because you're pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
So that's after you.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
After you, well, thank you, my friend. Please stick around
for some questions from you, our loyal listeners. Okay, I
(37:48):
hope you enjoyed that. It was wonderful to talk with Cheryl,
and let me know what you think. All right, we
get some questions from you, and here's the one hit.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
It Hi ROSI presson from Alabama. I just wanted to
leave you a message and let you know how much
I've enjoyed listening to your podcast.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
It's triggered a walk.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Down Memory Lane from me. I have been rewatching like
your movie's a leaga of their own, the Flintstones movie,
even that ren and stimpy episode you did where you
voiced the bray girl.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
And also your nephew uploading your show, your talk show
to YouTube. I've enjoyed those. I used to come in
the afternoons after school and watch your show with my mom,
So those are super special to me. And you know,
my question is kind of about my mom. You know,
growing up in the eighties and nineties, my mom was
always so progressive minded. She's so sweet and empathetic, sympathetic
(38:43):
to other people, and she always raised me to believe that,
you know, I'm no better than anybody else. We're all equal,
no matter of skin color, sexuality, you know, which was
really progressive at that point in time that we were
living in in Alabama, especially where we live, because, as
you know, in Alabama, a lot of people still have
(39:03):
really hateful ideas of the way things should be, and
it's just terrible, you know, and as a gay man,
my husband and I have faced it. You know, we
go out and people give us dirty looks, or you know,
we go to a restaurant, people get up and move tables.
So it makes it even worse that my mom ideologically
aligns herself with people that aim to hurt me and
(39:28):
my husband, who she claims to care about, you know.
And and since Donald Trump's presidency, over those over that
those four years and then even after now, I've tried
to remind her what she always instilled in me and
what she always said her beliefs were. And you know,
I really feel like she's been brainwashed, and I can't
(39:48):
convey that to her, you know, And it just breaks
my heart that she thinks the way she does now,
and I don't understand it.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
It's just hateful.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
And I feel like I've kind of gotten to a
place where I'm ready just to kind of give up,
you know. And my husband and I have even talked
about wanting to leave this place and go somewhere more progressive,
so hopefully we can make that happen. But I just
I always thought I would just stay here forever because
of her, you know, And this place is just so
hard to be gay, and you know, I feel like
(40:21):
there's got to be an easier way and better place
to be, and I just I want to just leave
it all behind. I feel like, but like I said,
at the same time, it breaks my heart to leave
my mom and just to give up on that relationship.
But I mean, like I said, I wouldn't go out
and be friends with the klu Klux Klansmen. So I
just don't know if I can reconcile it anymore. And
(40:41):
I don't think that she gets it. I don't know.
I don't know. What would you do?
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Rosie?
Speaker 3 (40:46):
My question was, I thought you lost your mom at
such a young age. Do you ever wonder if you
would have gotten along? And what if your mom were
still around and she took a hard right magaturn, like
how would you deal with that? Or you know, if
she was steadfast and those ideas and those beliefs, like
would you turn away?
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Like how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Like?
Speaker 3 (41:08):
I don't know, I don't know, Rosie, help me make
sense of it.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Preston, You're very, very cute, and I'm sorry that happened.
I really am. There's a wonderful documentary called Fox News
Brainwashed My Dad, and you have to watch that. It's
exactly about this. You know what happened when you know
sort of progressive family raised progressive beliefs, democratic usually liberal, possibly,
(41:40):
and somebody in the family does make a huge right turn.
Families are hard, you know, when you have trauma in
the beginning, in the setup, in the very structure of
the family, you know, it's difficult to overcome. But it's possible.
It's possible. Preston. Here's what I say. It is easier
(42:01):
to be gay in a different place than where you are.
And I hope that you find a place where you
and your husband can can thrive and be a part
of a community and feel all that love that has
been missing since your mom went maga. I wish you
(42:21):
nothing but luck and love. And you sound like an
amazing human. And thank you very much for picking up
my station here on this new fangled podcast thing. Thank you, Preston.
Question number two hit it Hello.
Speaker 4 (42:39):
I can't believe you were in London and you didn't
get in touch to have out coffee.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
It's all right.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
You mentioned Candy Corn. I miss Candy Corn anyway. I
will not go near Candy Corn. I don't even know
it's in Candy Corn? Should I say can to Corn?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Again?
Speaker 4 (43:02):
Enjoying your podcast still and I'm thinking, what question did
I have? I don't have a question. I just always like,
I just want to talk, okay, looking forward to the
next next Tuesday, for the next podcast. And yeah, I
(43:28):
also feel the same about all the news going on,
and I just, you know, I just stay in my
head creating and oh man, that's it. What kind of
art are you making? What are you working on? Are
you sewing? Are you painting? Yeah, share some of your artwork. Okay, bye?
(43:56):
Did I say it's Meryl? Bye?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay, Meryll. We're definitely having coffee because you're a freaking riot.
I don't really have a question. I'd just like to
talk well, merrily, You've come to the right place. I too,
go often to dissociation with my artistic endeavors. I start
blasting Joni Mitchell as loud as it will go, and
(44:24):
I just paint. And sometimes it's stuff to get out
of me. Sometimes it's to sort of get rid of
the images that are in my head. If I paint them,
then then you know, they don't haunt me as much.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
I sew things together, you know, like little scrap book
pages with the sewing machines sometimes, and you know, it's
like a whole lot of OCD esque journaling and and
mental health, you know, and that's what I have to do.
(45:03):
I would love to say I'm fine with this and
then everybody let's move on with her. I'm not fine
with any of it, and I don't have the answers,
and I'm just a person, and who asked me anyway.
So there are smarter minds than this one that are
the ones we should be listening to. And I'm looking
(45:24):
to to listen to some inspiring stuff. So yeah, make
art Merrill, keep being you. You're very funny, Meryl in
three times with the question way to go. If you
want to leave your own voice message for me, you
can send it in a voice memo to Onward Rosie
at gmail dot com. Next week, Onward, we have the
(45:47):
amazing Alexandra Pelosi who just released her fifteenth documentary and
they're all freaking amazing. This one I absolutely loved and
I think it should be required viewing for all of America.
It's called The Insurrectionist next Door, which she produced, directed,
and shot herself. She spends time with and interviews several
(46:10):
individuals charged with crimes so participating in the January sixth
attack on the Capitol, even asking some point blank, hey,
did you go to the capital to assassinate my mother?
I mean, honestly, it's a mind blowing documentary, and watch
it if you can this week before Tuesday, because I
(46:32):
think you're going to love the conversation. Alexandra Pelosi is
next week with the documentary The Insurrectionist next Door. Hey, everybody,
take care of your hearts please, and each other peace.
Hey, everybody, it's me Rosi O'Donnell and we are in November.
Can you believe that we're in November? And my kiddo
did thinks it's very funny to say that Thanksgiving is
the middle child between October and Christmas. That's what they
(00:29):
said to me last night. I'm like, I suppose that
is true. So we lost Matthew Perry. And you know,
I was lucky enough to get to know him during
COVID when we both were in a group that you know,
got together and zoomed and we're still together the group
(00:54):
and we check in in the morning and at night,
and so it was a privilege to get to know
him and to love him, and to watch him fate
so hard, you know, for his health in every way,
and he's a champion. He's a champion. And so many
(01:15):
of us, nearly all of us, have someone that we
love who struggles with addiction, a disease of addiction, and
it's so easy to just say they lack the willpower,
they are somehow morally corruptible. It's just a lie, you know,
it's just a lie. It's a disease. And I think
(01:39):
his body had just had enough. You know, read his book.
It's beautiful, That's what I can say. Read his book,
and he was a beautiful, beautiful man. He was an
amazing man, and that book tells you all about who
he is from you know, his own heart. Yeah, onward, onward.
(02:00):
What do you do. It's so hard when you lose
a friend, and especially when somehow the friend is younger
than you. It's hard for me to believe that so
much has changed since I was a kid, and so
much hasn't. I remember being horrified at the war in
(02:23):
Vietnam and it was on TV and I was a
little kid. I couldn't get away from it, so I
stopped watching the news. And I kind of have to
do that now. Self preservation, you know, stay informed, but
don't overload all your circuits all the time and try
to fix things that are not ours to fix. Right,
(02:47):
as they say in all the AA programs, the wisdom
to know the difference, right that things I can and
cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. But
I'm inspired so many people, and that's what I'm trying
to now. Just absorb, stay present. I'm in my life,
(03:11):
I'm a grown up. I'm here, this is happening. We've
gotten through all the other tough days. We'll get through these.
You know, I have no answers. Nobody has the answers
other than other than you know, survive today, survive tomorrow.
(03:38):
But I don't have any answers. And I know everybody's
in pain and everybody's raw, and I'm respecting everyone's need
for peace right now, including my own.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You know.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, we have a good Joe, really good Joe. A
friend of mine, Cheryl Dounie, who is a world renowned
African American director, writer, and actor, and we met on
the set of American Jigelo. She was a guest director,
but I knew of her from her very first film,
Watermelon Woman, which was a groundbreaking self produced movie that
(04:15):
opened a whole new genre in film. And sometimes you
don't know something is missing until someone shows it to you.
And that's kind of what Watermelon Woman did, just one
woman's quest to be truly represented on film. And it's
now part of the permanent collection of Cinema at the
Museum of Modern Art. Yes, MoMA has chosen Watermelon Woman
(04:41):
as part of their permanent collection, and that's pretty amazing.
One note, when we take this it was right after
the writer's strike had ended, and we had very high
hopes that seg after was going to end right away.
But we are still fighting for the good fight, stronger
than ever we can hold on. I'm SAG and AFTRA
(05:01):
and I'm so proud of you, Fran Dresser, the president
of Screen Actors Guild and AFTRA, and I love you
very much, and I'm so proud of how you're standing
tall and fighting for all of us. Right right now
here we are, me and my friend Cheryl Dunier. Hey,
(05:31):
Cheryl Dunier, how are you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I am blessed and happy and happy to be here
with you.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, very good to see you. We got to work
together on American Jiggielow and ill fated, discombobulated show that
you and I were there when they sort of tore
it in half and started saying do this do that
work without a script, But we got through it and
we begin friends. Good to see you.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Onward onward we went, Yes, we did answer that, and
you know it was it was Shows can be hard,
really can be hard. I mean, I'm glad that things
are being renegotiated right now and have landed in favor
of the people, people who really bring bring shows to life.
Who are you know, the directors, the actors fingers crossed
(06:21):
that works out as well as the writers, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
So it was so shocking to me to hear that
the AMPTP thought they could do without the people who
create the things they sell. It shocked me, right, I thought, well,
surely you're not going to be able to robot this
auto room, you know what I'm saying. How how did
(06:48):
they think they were being able to to do it
without the ingredients that you need in the soup?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I have no idea. It is all about capitalism, it
is all about the money. But for us, it's about talent.
So and here I am with the talented.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Rosie and you, the talented you. I mean you you
had a big crossroads in your life where you were
about to become a tenured professor and you got the
bug of doing and directing episodic TV shows, right, And
is it true that the school said to you pick you.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Know, yes, yes, that's a that's a a big crossroad time.
I had just moved to the Bay Area and had
been living here for about five years. I was in LA.
I said, you know, f La, let me move up
here and being with the people and find work and
and get a job as an academic. Finally just land
(07:44):
instead of trying to dance between two worlds. And I
was just really going to go down that path. But
we started, you know, I did bug happened. I started
to get the itch and made some shorts that went
around and and then you know, got into the Academy.
That really was the magic moment when I got into
the Academy with that first wave of new directors that
(08:04):
came in, and met Ava du Rene who was doing
Queen Sugar, and you know, the rest is history there.
She said, you know, do you want to be on
the show? I said yes, and you know at my
school said no, bye. Yes, see, you wouldn't want to
(08:24):
be right right.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
So and was it a decision that you wrestled with
or was it really well I got to go this
is what I have.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
To Well, I think it was a wrestling for me
in particular that I was at this crossroad of a
moment and so was the program. And I was thinking, well,
this could be a great way to bring this to
the film program at San Francisco State University. And I
all name them and they didn't you know, it didn't
(08:54):
work into what they really had me there to do,
which was teach because there's a lot of students there.
I may have cut. This is like one hundred and
fifty students for like intro to you know, filmmaking and video.
And I'm like, you know, walking on front, doing my
little Oprah hour. But but state the universities are not
funded so well, I think it goes back to the
(09:15):
bigger thing. And so these classes are huge and a
lot of the younger you know, faculty end up, regardless
of their talent, you know, doing things that aren't like
sitting in a lab and you know, dealing with you know,
negotiating to make the program bigger, they have to just
teach the bare bones. And I just was ready to
not do that again.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, where did you grow up, Cheryl? So?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I grew up in Old phil I del by a
Philly Yeah yeah, yeah, I was born in Liberya. I
grew up in Philly. And U, you know, was that
little odd black girl. You know, it's like two wound
up and just you know, knowing my little difference. So
(10:00):
I was always out, you know, there was never of
the closet for me except for playing hide and seek
or you know, being in my mama or something like that.
I just never knew why not, So that was right.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Really, do you think that was some kind of self
knowledge or do you think that was the unconditional love
maybe that you had been. I mean, your family was accepting.
They were not giving you any kind of pushback.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
My father was sort of traveling a lot, so he
was in Liberia or Boston or whatnot, so he was
sort of that part time dad. But my mom was
a full time mom. I'll tell you that. Born in
nineteen thirty in Philadelphia and had a whole other generation
of you know what it meant to be, you know,
(10:52):
raise their kids and move them a step forward. So
she was doing that, but I had a whole bunch
of other stuff there, so I was just on a
different track. I was able to be that daughter for
her who you know, got good grades and you know,
made those decisions. But I had my whole other you know,
(11:13):
you know, interior light which became exterior like playing in
the street with kids. I remember, you know, having fun
with kids behind the bushes, you know, my baker at
a very young age. So but there was a moment
where those two things came together, I would say, and
not a bad way. But it was time for me
(11:35):
to go to college, and I literally was looking for
the most queer place I could get into, or a
lesbian place, and for some reason I chose Michigan, Michigan State,
because that's where the I got a lesbian newsletter and
it said Michigan State was the best place to go
because the Women's Music Festival was there, Michigan Women's Festival.
I was like, that must be where lesbians are.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I want to go there, I want And.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Literally when I got there was this the couple who
had the you know po box, you know, that d
of thing.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It was whenever I get hate me and I always
think of that too. It's like three people in a
studio apartment writing the letter, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And so I just, you know, she had that talk
with me and she said, you know, when you go
and you're going to be there, make sure you find
a good, you know, boyfriend. And I said, well, hold, hold,
what if it's a girlfriend, well whatever, you know, and
she just kind of went rolled over it. And I
think she knew. I think she just knew, you know,
And I was already a loud person, an extrovert as
(12:36):
they called it in those times.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Well that's you know, that's pretty ahead of her time
for your mom. When't you say.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yes from that type of you know, black billy girl.
You know, he raised, you know, in the Baptist way,
turned Catholic and just you know, real conservative democrat, you know,
hard night public school teacher.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
You know that's like, yeah, that's like my family too,
and Catholic and you know, but I I never there
was never a discussion about me being gay. But I
think my mother knew as well. Now she died when
I was ten in seventy three, but right before she died,
I signed up to play drums in school and she
(13:18):
would not let me because she said it was a
boy's thing and I didn't have to do so many
boys things. So you know, that was the first and
only thing that I kind of remember or can pick
out about that. You know, again, I was just a
little kid, I was ten, but I was always like
a tomboy. I always played all the sports. I always,
(13:39):
you know, was loudmouthed, New York little spunky kid, you know,
and without a mother and without gender defined roles in
the household, you know, there came a freedom with that
in some ways that I am you know, not happy about. Obviously,
I would rather have had my mother living and grown
(13:59):
up with with that kind of frame as I try
to parent myself and my children now in my sixties,
you know, it's uh, it's something that you always look towards. Now,
is your mom with us still?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Or is my My father passed the African he passed
in the late eighties, and I was, I don't know,
maybe maybe the one of the big girlfriends that I
had at that time, like the first major girlfriend relationship,
and I was just rediscovering my relationship with my father.
And I think this is like eighty seven and she,
(14:34):
you know, I come over to do laundry or something
like that. From college. It was now at Temple University
in Philly and living you know, around the city with girl,
you know, the Gas Street, South.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Street, Stilly l Armor Trading was always playing JO.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I mean, did I have many How many albums do
I have?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
You know, every single Trading?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I had everything. See her as much as I could,
you know, and I just really was just digging into
that light. And we went over and she said, go good,
give your dad a hug, you know, and I did,
and the next day he died. So but he was
sort of my mom was the alpha, so I kind
(15:16):
of followed in steps of that alpha. But with that,
you know, daddy's little girl thing. And I think that
really kept me on that, you know, the track of
being somebody who followed their their visions and drives. And
her thing was love many, trust few, always paddle your
own canoe. She said that to me all the time.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I was like, well, that is a great little saying.
I never heard that love many, trust few always paddle
your own canoe. Yeah, that's pretty intense.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Really when I understood it, I understood it, and it
was like all right bye.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
So ninety six, right when my show premiered, your feature
film debut came out The Watermelon Woman, which I remember vividly.
It was so exciting to see a film about African
American lesbian women unabashedly in love, vibrant and real. It
(16:10):
was the first time that you that I saw a
movie like that. It was groundbreaking, an award winning yes, yes, yes, now.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
The Watermelon Woman was my you know, love child of
lots of labor. I had been working on it as
you would say, my whole life. But going back to
that sort of coming out story, I wanted to tell
a story that was about somebody who was already out.
You know, there was a whole big coming out thing,
even Go Fish, which was like sort of the big
(16:40):
thing before me. Yes, Roasterche and Gwen Turner and and
I was living in New York at that time, and
that sort of you know, little queer little baby Dyke
village of where I met, you know, somebody close to you,
lower east Side. You know, we're all doing activists, fun
stuff living, you know, living.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
With artists, queer artists downtown.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yes, yep, cultural producers at day and at night. You
know what I'm saying. So I had to get in
the game. I had to define myself in that timeline.
And you know, lucky for me, I was receiving a
few grants. I had did a little gig at the
New Museum as a director of a show called Bad Girls.
(17:26):
It was all about women video artists who were doing comedy.
So it was I had put myself in the scene.
And I was just like, now's the time to do
the story about black lesbian A narrative everything doc. I
want to do it. Narrative, and so I looked up
you know, stories ideas. You know, I couldn't find anything
(17:47):
about black lesbians and the Black film History timeline, and
then I couldn't find anything about black lesbians in the
queer history timeline. Vita Russo's so you like closet, and
so I just said, let me just make it up.
You know, I have this history of you know, background
in video art and performance, and I'm comfortable in front
(18:11):
of the camera. I did a lot of short video work,
and so I played Cheryl the video store employee, want
to be filmmaker? Who I you know, I think it
just became meta, right, and there was enough there to
make the sort of use video to tell that story
because I knew how to be on video camp. But
(18:33):
but then I had to sort of figure out film
really quickly and become a screenwriter and wrote a narrative
around Cheryl's romance and situation, which is meta for the
situation I was in with my partner at the time,
who was a whit lesbian, and so it was it
was great, it was really great. Put it out there,
won the Teddy Award in Berlin, and you invited to
(18:55):
museums worldwide, but did not get the recognition in the
you know, the film the independent film world, which.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Is right, well, you were you were an outsider there,
you know, right, you were. Who lives? Who dies? Who
tells your story? If no one's telling your story, there's
no representation of you. How do you even find where
you fit in the world and the culture and life
if your stories are not told. So this was a
groundbreaking film and in a way a mix of film,
(19:24):
friends and documentary all together at once. And you know,
when I saw Precious for the first time, I thought
he's done this as well. He's taking a film and
done it so raw and real that you think you're
watching a documentary. It was like a docu drama, but
but not in the way we usually think of those
(19:45):
two words.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Together, you know, exactly exactly. Yeah, that was a really
powerful I mean, he Lee is you know, he's also
from Billy too. Yeah, been in his presence too around
around that time of Precious. But yeah, it was is
important to show that I existed on my own terms
and that there was a world of black lesbians that
(20:06):
are just living you know, normal funny life. You know,
everything's funny to me too.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Everything's funny. What's the other choice? That's what I ask you.
What is the other choice?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
How do you find now working in the confines of
like the system, you know, like when you come in
you're obviously an independent thinker, filmmaker individual, to come in
and have kind of the lanes be so defined for
you that it almost limits your ability to drive naturally
(20:42):
as you do, you know, artistically, And how do you
find that? Because I thought it would be that you
would go off and just become this independent film star
making independence over and instead you kind of took took
a different turn and you're you know, shows that The Fosters,
which I was on, which you worked on as well,
(21:05):
and with that comes notes from producers and a lot
of involvement, you know, from other people. It's almost like
you're the artist and they're screaming more blue when you're like,
shut up on painting, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Right, right, right, right right? I love that so funny.
I don't know, you know, at this moment for me
as a director on episodic television, it's very easy because
I am the guest. Everybody else has been on the
show for a long time. They know each other in
relationships from the crew to producers to the cast, you know,
(21:40):
And so a director just kind of flies in and
has gone within two weeks and they're on somebody else,
you know, depending on what type of show it is.
But for the most part, you're talking about that time.
So am I going to come in and change the system?
Or am I going to come in and be the
guest and have a lovely time and make everybody feel
you know, feel me and remember me and do the
(22:03):
best thing I can do. So it took a while
to get to that, and I think it's sure. Directors
a while to especially ones who are filmmakers, you know,
I mean, but they bring you in because they want
you as an indie filmmaker with this rich history, and
you know, I play with narrative and now I'm on
a lot of bigger shows, so I know, you know,
all the effects and this and that. So I'm very
(22:26):
happy at this point because it's not my show. And
I really say to everybody, I love you to death.
Complain all you want, but it's not my show.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Right exactly, Not a lot I could do. It's not
my show. I would say that to people to Some
of my friends were talking about you know, the problems
with the show, and they were like the Abos of
the seventies. I'm like, it's not my show, just a cop,
it's not my show.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
It's not my show. I can't. I mean, what the
thing is is to make your own show, and that's
you know, what I'm really trying to do. But it's
about my pay grade too. Is the other thing I
was saying for the strike when I walked out another show,
this is above my pay green and let the people
you know come in. So, I mean it sounds but
I would be right there rehearsing, you know, right there,
(23:14):
you know, making some interesting blocking or you know, talking
to the cast to bring out you know, do my
little Dunia magic with them. But I was not going
to go and change the system. I was going to
deliver more options. Let's shoot the hand, let's shoot the ceiling.
Oh don't forget the light. You said light there, you know,
and then shoot the shoot the way that the show looks.
Because I can't go like.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Exactly, you have to talking head right, you have to
sort of follow the template already established and paint within
that frame, right.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Right, right. I mean, if I went to Bridgerton and
did you know the Junia mentary, like it just didn't work.
You know, it would not work. It just doesn't work.
So you know, how do you then do your thing
within the confounds of the show? I mean you figure
out perform, you figure out you know, camera location, you
figure out you know, as I said, blocking props. I mean,
(24:07):
directors have so much control that you know, once you
figure out, like how you know, to make them color
in a show. And as you were talking about color Bran, yeah,
bring it, bring it.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah. Is there somebody in history that you would like
people to know more about who was like an out
black lesbian in a time when you know, I'm sure
there's many, but is there someone that you like? Oh God,
that's what I want to do. That subject is a
specific individual.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Right Well, I call myself an Audrey Lordian. Yeah, so
good for you, an Audrey Lordian. And I've lived by
you know, her poetry. Audrey lord you know, died in
the early nineties black lesbian poet, poet laud of the
state of New York and or ninety right before she
(24:56):
passed from cancer. You know, lived loud and proud and
doing the thrumples in the fifties and you know whatever
kids are calling them, you know, she was living it
then and then being radical and defining what it means
to be I have a black, feminist, lesbian agenda that's
(25:17):
about love and inclusion.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
People don't know that they know her name. They can
pull out a quote or two, but do they know
like she was blind until the you know, legally blind
until the age of five, didn't speak and until you know,
she was at a public library in Harlem and uh,
the librarian read a book and Audrey said, I want
(25:41):
to read uh, and her mom Caribbean West Indian mom
was just, you know, crying. It's a miracle. So that's
the one. That's the woman, I think, And I'm doing
many things right now, great things to make that a reality.
To adapt one of her novels into a film.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And do you have anyone who you would like to
play her?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Now that's a hard one, Come.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
On, Chanelle Money, I don't know who is to know?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Jane would be great. I mean once you, once I
get it together and figure out, you know who should
be Audrey. Kids are going to come popping life.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yes, without a doubt, without without.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
A doubt, without a doubt.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
We'll be right back with Cheryl Donier. Now, how old
(26:53):
were you when you became a mom?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Thirty three?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Me too, that's what I got. Yeah, it was a
good year that year. It now, was that a big
decision for you? Were you in a partnership? Was it
something that you just wanted to do for yourself or
how did that come about?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
So I'm gonna, you know, turn back the hands of time.
When I you know, definitely I was thinking about being queer.
I always thought I was going to have a kid,
and I thought it happened, would imaginally happened when you
turned twenty one, you just started having kids. I don't
know where the nune's never told us the right thing,
I'm sure, but I definitely knew I was going to
(27:33):
have a kid. I was always making plans. I was
always sort of you know, thinking about what gay men
and even asking them to the point of like, you know,
you've got good geens, tell me whatever. Yet, especially during
the time of Aides, we lost so many wonderful men.
Essex Hempel was a good friend of mine. He was
like somebody who was asked, He's like, no, I can't others.
(27:55):
So it was always on my agenda, regardless of what
I was doing, and it was just finding the right moment.
And I said, all right, the moment's going to be
after I do like my major big thing that was
a watermelon woman, and uh I did it right after
that because you know, and I was a one hit
wonder because I'm a gold star.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Good for you, right, good for you. Yeah, that's a guy.
I have a lot of gold star lesbian's never been
with a man, and they wear it proudly, you know,
as you should, as you should. All right, do you
have a son or a daughter?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
What do I have? Somemun's gender and non performing. So
they are living in Seattle with their partner who's also
they and uh, just starting in the world, I would say,
working as they graduated from Cooper Union in paper making.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Wow, so Cooper Union. That's a fancy.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yard school there and use and useful paper making it is, right,
while figure how to put that on the map. So yeah,
now they're in Seattle and they're a registrar at an
art center and planning to go to grad school. And
so the partner I had at the same time that
samell was born where they were like, oh, I want
(29:14):
to do it, and so we use the same journal.
And so we have a son, and his name is Gabe,
and he too is he went to a college in
New York. I forgot the new I'm sorry. It's also
the menopausal brain. People don't believe me.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
I'm with you on that, honey. I don't have to.
I think I need three more seconds when I watch
Jeopardy now it should be over sixty. You get three
more seconds stance of the question, right, yeah, Now, so
both your kids are non binary.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Well, you know, Gabe is not. He's just he hasn't
really defined himself. I think he's a gamer. So I
think he has a relationship that he's trying to figure
out with the world understood.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Well, my little one is ten, who you know, is
so magical. She has autism. She told me right after
we work together that some of her stuffed animals were
non binary. And I was like, no kidding, I said,
And what she was like nine at the time. I said,
and what does that mean? She says, they're not a
girl and they're not a boy. And I said, okay,
(30:20):
that's fine, that's fine with me. I said, you know,
when I was a girl, there was a thing called
a tomboy, and that's what they called people who felt
not like a girl and not like a boy. And
she goes, so that means your non binary. I said, well,
for me, I'm just gay, but some people, you know,
I understand non binary. Well, now they are? Are they them?
(30:43):
I almost said, she is? Are they them? But they
feel so strongly about this. It's been over a year,
and they recently asked all their friends and everyone else
in their life besides me and one friend of hers,
Judah lives away, to call her Clay to call them Clay,
(31:05):
and that she would like they would like me and
Judah to still call them Dakota. So it's so interesting
to be on this journey that here I am like
a lesbian icon. And my little nine year old says
to me, Mommy, some kids in my class don't even
know their own gender. I'm like, tell them to look
in the mirror when they're in the shower, right, like
(31:27):
a typical idiot. And she says, that's your sex, not
your gender. Sex is binary. Gender is infinite. She was nine, Cheryl,
she was nine years old. She's kind of schooling me
into readjusting my antiquated thinking and opening myself up to
(31:52):
seeing who they are. Because when a kid tells you
who they are, believe them. You know, you gotta believe them.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
You have to. Yeah, I mean that's that's that's your
our future, and that's our the next gen. And we
just have to be there for them whatever and be
imparent them and give them what they need for the
journey after us, which is going to be a hard one.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Do you remember that first love or the first time
you kissed a girl? Did your head explode? Like?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
What?
Speaker 1 (32:20):
What was that?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Like?
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Did you kiss a boy before you kissed a girl?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I think I kissed the boy, but it didn't go well. Yeah,
I did not.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Know you were a little kid. How old were you?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I was maybe it was the promiscuous summer, like twelve
or thirteen and some sort of like little you know,
older than me, little boy who was sort of met
in the golf course at night, that type of thing.
We're all there playing games, and that was just day.
You know, what are you doing? I gotta go home?
(32:56):
It was boring, so right, escape her home. But there
was once I found, you know, figured out my lesbianism
and moved past my crush with you know, the Italian girl.
In high school, I found this older lesbian who I
just Nancy Pertino. I can't even say the name Nancy Pertina.
(33:20):
And she was an anarchist and I just at the
anarchist book shop. And she was like, I can't go
out with you. I can't do anything with you because
you're young. You know, come back in a year when
you when you turn eighteen. So I went back in
a year and I said, are you ready? And so
we had a summer little thing before I went to college.
You know, Good for you, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Good to her for putting up that boundary number one exactly.
Number two. Good for you for knowing what you wanted.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I knew what I wanted, and you know, I knew
it was something that was going to be fulfilling and
that there was desire there as well as a lifestyle
that I believed in. I think that's the whole thing too.
It's like, why why are younger generation is who they are?
They're they're they're they're showing together the politics. It's not
just about who you sleep with. You knows about how
(34:08):
you live your life. It's about who you you know value.
It's a whole bunch of social mares for them to
align to and and feel comfortable in the world with
to find a partner, because you could you could be
you can have fun with an avatar for a long time,
you know exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Put on that virtual reality headset. They're talking about crazy crazy,
how life is so different.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Technology is the hardest thing. Yeah, it sure is.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Do you fight Did you fight that with your gamer son?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
That?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
You know? My kid I think is going to be
an animator or a gamer or it's all about that
world and the depth of knowledge is terrifying, you know. Really,
what she's able, what they are able to tell me,
is going on in the as she she says it
the object show community, because those are the kind of
shows she likes where objects have little faces and they talk,
(35:03):
but there are no people in it. That's what she.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Wants, just voices and just voice.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Will they call him broccoli or they call him cup
and it's a little cup and he's like, hey, how
it going. Let's walk over to the candle And they
walk over to the candle and hell over the candlelight
very much? Yeah, better put you out, you know, like
a it's a crazy little but she has a they
have a whole community that they're you know, invested in.
And I took them to VidCon, you know, which is
(35:33):
like Comic Con but for YouTube stars and what she watches.
And we went in there and she just cut tears
in her eyes and she looked around and she said,
these are my people. This is my culture. This is
my culture.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
That's their culture, and they understand and they seek it
and they can find it online and whatnot. So Gabe
the the Gamer was at once a Brony I know that, yes,
and he also plays magical gathering and he was here
at the I was living in another place which was
very far away from the Bronie Cohn, but I was like,
(36:09):
I am not driving all the way out there. So
he dressed up in his little Bronnie outfit BART, which
is the public transportation system up here in the Bay Area,
all the way to the airport, hopped on a shuttle
to go to this con and play and sing you know,
the Little Bernie.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
My Little Pony song.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I was just like, what the And that's when I
knew he knew what you know he? I mean, this
public system is long, and there are a lot of
people that get on it and say he's dressed in
a little purple you know, wig and minded. He was,
you know, in his teens at that point. But he
loves all the cons he loves, you know, making the
big sword out of paper.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Exactly. I got the con kid here too, exactly right,
the whole Well, Cheryl, you're delightful. I really love talking
to you. I could talk to you all day. I
can't wait till we get to work together. And hopefully
this strike will be over before we even air this podcast.
So yes, I hope I really do. And thank you
(37:10):
for talking to me. Thank you for coming on and
telling everybody about you and who you are and what
you do, because you're pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
So that's after you.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
After you, well, thank you, my friend. Please stick around
for some questions from you, our loyal listeners. Okay, I
(37:48):
hope you enjoyed that. It was wonderful to talk with Cheryl,
and let me know what you think. All right, we
get some questions from you, and here's the one hit.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
It Hi ROSI presson from Alabama. I just wanted to
leave you a message and let you know how much
I've enjoyed listening to your podcast.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
It's triggered a walk.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Down Memory Lane from me. I have been rewatching like
your movie's a leaga of their own, the Flintstones movie,
even that ren and stimpy episode you did where you
voiced the bray girl.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
And also your nephew uploading your show, your talk show
to YouTube. I've enjoyed those. I used to come in
the afternoons after school and watch your show with my mom,
So those are super special to me. And you know,
my question is kind of about my mom. You know,
growing up in the eighties and nineties, my mom was
always so progressive minded. She's so sweet and empathetic, sympathetic
(38:43):
to other people, and she always raised me to believe that,
you know, I'm no better than anybody else. We're all equal,
no matter of skin color, sexuality, you know, which was
really progressive at that point in time that we were
living in in Alabama, especially where we live, because, as
you know, in Alabama, a lot of people still have
(39:03):
really hateful ideas of the way things should be, and
it's just terrible, you know, and as a gay man,
my husband and I have faced it. You know, we
go out and people give us dirty looks, or you know,
we go to a restaurant, people get up and move tables.
So it makes it even worse that my mom ideologically
aligns herself with people that aim to hurt me and
(39:28):
my husband, who she claims to care about, you know.
And and since Donald Trump's presidency, over those over that
those four years and then even after now, I've tried
to remind her what she always instilled in me and
what she always said her beliefs were. And you know,
I really feel like she's been brainwashed, and I can't
(39:48):
convey that to her, you know, And it just breaks
my heart that she thinks the way she does now,
and I don't understand it.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
It's just hateful.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
And I feel like I've kind of gotten to a
place where I'm ready just to kind of give up,
you know. And my husband and I have even talked
about wanting to leave this place and go somewhere more progressive,
so hopefully we can make that happen. But I just
I always thought I would just stay here forever because
of her, you know, And this place is just so
hard to be gay, and you know, I feel like
(40:21):
there's got to be an easier way and better place
to be, and I just I want to just leave
it all behind. I feel like, but like I said,
at the same time, it breaks my heart to leave
my mom and just to give up on that relationship.
But I mean, like I said, I wouldn't go out
and be friends with the klu Klux Klansmen. So I
just don't know if I can reconcile it anymore. And
(40:41):
I don't think that she gets it. I don't know.
I don't know. What would you do?
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Rosie?
Speaker 3 (40:46):
My question was, I thought you lost your mom at
such a young age. Do you ever wonder if you
would have gotten along? And what if your mom were
still around and she took a hard right magaturn, like
how would you deal with that? Or you know, if
she was steadfast and those ideas and those beliefs, like
would you turn away?
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Like how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Like?
Speaker 3 (41:08):
I don't know, I don't know, Rosie, help me make
sense of it.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Preston, You're very, very cute, and I'm sorry that happened.
I really am. There's a wonderful documentary called Fox News
Brainwashed My Dad, and you have to watch that. It's
exactly about this. You know what happened when you know
sort of progressive family raised progressive beliefs, democratic usually liberal, possibly,
(41:40):
and somebody in the family does make a huge right turn.
Families are hard, you know, when you have trauma in
the beginning, in the setup, in the very structure of
the family, you know, it's difficult to overcome. But it's possible.
It's possible. Preston. Here's what I say. It is easier
(42:01):
to be gay in a different place than where you are.
And I hope that you find a place where you
and your husband can can thrive and be a part
of a community and feel all that love that has
been missing since your mom went maga. I wish you
(42:21):
nothing but luck and love. And you sound like an
amazing human. And thank you very much for picking up
my station here on this new fangled podcast thing. Thank you, Preston.
Question number two hit it Hello.
Speaker 4 (42:39):
I can't believe you were in London and you didn't
get in touch to have out coffee.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
It's all right.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
You mentioned Candy Corn. I miss Candy Corn anyway. I
will not go near Candy Corn. I don't even know
it's in Candy Corn? Should I say can to Corn?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Again?
Speaker 4 (43:02):
Enjoying your podcast still and I'm thinking, what question did
I have? I don't have a question. I just always like,
I just want to talk, okay, looking forward to the
next next Tuesday, for the next podcast. And yeah, I
(43:28):
also feel the same about all the news going on,
and I just, you know, I just stay in my
head creating and oh man, that's it. What kind of
art are you making? What are you working on? Are
you sewing? Are you painting? Yeah, share some of your artwork. Okay, bye?
(43:56):
Did I say it's Meryl? Bye?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay, Meryll. We're definitely having coffee because you're a freaking riot.
I don't really have a question. I'd just like to
talk well, merrily, You've come to the right place. I too,
go often to dissociation with my artistic endeavors. I start
blasting Joni Mitchell as loud as it will go, and
(44:24):
I just paint. And sometimes it's stuff to get out
of me. Sometimes it's to sort of get rid of
the images that are in my head. If I paint them,
then then you know, they don't haunt me as much.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
I sew things together, you know, like little scrap book
pages with the sewing machines sometimes, and you know, it's
like a whole lot of OCD esque journaling and and
mental health, you know, and that's what I have to do.
(45:03):
I would love to say I'm fine with this and
then everybody let's move on with her. I'm not fine
with any of it, and I don't have the answers,
and I'm just a person, and who asked me anyway.
So there are smarter minds than this one that are
the ones we should be listening to. And I'm looking
(45:24):
to to listen to some inspiring stuff. So yeah, make
art Merrill, keep being you. You're very funny, Meryl in
three times with the question way to go. If you
want to leave your own voice message for me, you
can send it in a voice memo to Onward Rosie
at gmail dot com. Next week, Onward, we have the
(45:47):
amazing Alexandra Pelosi who just released her fifteenth documentary and
they're all freaking amazing. This one I absolutely loved and
I think it should be required viewing for all of America.
It's called The Insurrectionist next Door, which she produced, directed,
and shot herself. She spends time with and interviews several
(46:10):
individuals charged with crimes so participating in the January sixth
attack on the Capitol, even asking some point blank, hey,
did you go to the capital to assassinate my mother?
I mean, honestly, it's a mind blowing documentary, and watch
it if you can this week before Tuesday, because I
(46:32):
think you're going to love the conversation. Alexandra Pelosi is
next week with the documentary The Insurrectionist next Door. Hey, everybody,
take care of your hearts please, and each other peace.
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