April 4, 2023 • 49 mins
This week, the "Magical Wisdom" of actress, best-selling author, and dear friend, Jenifer Lewis. Rosie and Jenifer have an uproarious and deep conversation about life, mental illness, and self-care.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Well, hey everybody, it's me Rosie O'Donnell. How are you.
I'm good, I'm good boy. It's been one hell of
a week. Huh. You know the thing about podcasts is
they're not live, so we record them as close to
the drop date as we can. But things happen in
the world, and you know, today I think what I'm
(00:32):
still thinking of and what has rocked my soul, and
once again, you know, open the Columbine wound that happened
to all of us with it being pretty much the
first huge school shooting that we all remember April twentieth,
nineteen ninety nine, and that brings me back to this
(00:52):
latest school shooting in Nashville, where three children and three
adults were killed, and you know, it overwhelms me. I
don't understand how this keeps happening in our country and
how senators and congress people feel like it's okay to
(01:13):
say on the news the day after this horror that
nothing can be done. How is that possible? Nothing can
be done? I'm sick of hearing it, and I think
a vast majority of Americans are too. We need to
ban assault weapons, and I wrote that on my TikTok
(01:33):
and people wrote in Oh my sickon Amendment right this, Well,
let's amend the amendment. Then. I think that automatic weapons,
assault rifles weapons of war. Sorry, civilians cannot have them.
And that's the point where we're at, you know. I
(01:54):
remember talking to Rory Kennedy last week and her telling
me that the top scientists in the world say we
could have six maybe ten years before it's not fixable
what we've done to the climate. And we're in an
emergency and not fixable, right, what's going to happen? I mean,
(02:15):
you can't just pretend you don't see these things. Willful
blindness is going to end up ruining the earth, you know.
And we have willful blindness in this country about assault weapons.
And when we had an assault weapon ban, there were
much less school shootings. You know, the statistics, everybody can
(02:37):
look them up. We've known them for too long. You know.
You got to stand up and force our representatives to
speak for the people. You can't love guns more than
you love kids. Really sad, really hard, and it's really
hard to keep fighting the same fight. I remember when
(03:00):
I spoke out after Columbine to Tom Selleck, who then
was a representative of the NRA. You know, it was
a big controversy. How could you say that? How could
we not have said it? Look, what's happened since a
thousand school shootings, since Columbine in America. It's crazy, it's crazy,
(03:26):
and we can't live this way, and we have to
stand up and say it. You know, I've been trying
not to listen to the news because what's going on
in Israel and the streets and them fighting against net
and Yahoo, and in France the fights and the protests
against Macron who wants to change the retirement age by
two years. And you know, I saw some photos and
(03:49):
video of people eating in a French bistro and outside
trash cans, on fire road blockades, people eating, just you know,
what's happened to our world? Very very sad. Really is
well now that I brought the show to a complete
halt and nobody wants to listen. We have a great
(04:10):
guest today, we really do. And we talk a little
bit about mental health. We talk a little bit about Columbine,
which you know started me on my journey and medication
of medication of my mental health issues, and I am
so incredibly grateful. But the guest is Jennifer Lewis. Jennifer Lewis,
(04:30):
who is one of the most talented people I have
ever met in my life. I saw her in nineteen
ninety four in her one woman show, The Diva Is Dismissed,
and I was like, I'm in love with her. I'm
in love with her. I met her then, but before then,
before then, I knew who she was because I saw
Bette Midler and concerts so many times that I could
(04:52):
recognize her backup singers when they weren't with her, you know,
I mean, that's a whole different gig. You know. I
was doing a game show and well we tell the
story in it. But she's here today, and she has
written two books, The Mother of Black Hollywood and Walking
in My Joy in the Streets. You know, she's amazing,
(05:14):
and I love her philosophy of life. I love her
perspective of the world. I love her ability to have
self insight, and and I love the way she carries herself.
I really do. Years and years ago, maybe thirty years ago,
we all were in Laguna to see Bette Midler and
(05:37):
Jennifer was performing with Bet I believe at that time,
and she was there with Mark Shaman and me and
a bunch of people or I saw them right after
they came back, and they were all singing the song
that Jennifer made up when she was in Laguna because
she got there and she was the only black person
that she saw in the whole entire town. So she
made up this song that goes something like this, Hey
(06:00):
white folks, I'm sorry I could not get here sooner.
I'm the only black girl in Lagoonah, And we would
sing it over and over and over. So this interview
has no beginning because we just jump in right. She
sees me on the FaceTime thing and I see her
(06:22):
and we're going, you know, we start talking the words
to hey white girl, I'm sorry I could not get
here sooner, but we never explain what it is. So
there is a little explanation about your little song. You're
gonna hear us do a little staccato version of Anyway,
she's here and we're talking about everything, and I just
adore her, and I know that you will too. So
(06:44):
fair warning, there's a lot of cursing in this episode
because when she and I sit around, that's what we do.
So you might not want to listen at work. Or
else put your headphones on. I mean, it's not like
so much cursing that you're watching, you know, like a
Tarantino film, But there's enough cur thing that you could
get in trouble by someone saying, what the fuck are
you listening to? You know what I'm saying. This is
(07:04):
Arnward with Rosie O'Donnell, and this is episode three. Oh honey,
hi baby, how are you? Oh girl? Some of shit
(07:26):
is going on? What's going down? And what's going down?
I'm gonna tell you all the good shit? All right? Hey,
why folks, I'm sorry, bitches, I could not be Assuna.
You're the only black girl in Laguna. Holy mother bucker.
Oh my, how long ago was that, Jennifer Lewis? That
(07:46):
must have been a good thirty years ago. It had
to be thirty. Yes, we've known each other a long time.
Oh my god, Row Row Do you remember the first
time we met? Where it was and mar Chavis? Nope?
It was on the talk show Third Degree? Do you
remember that you and Charlowe were trying to get us
(08:11):
to guess on the Burke Convy hosted Third Degree, a
very short lived game show, And I looked at you
and went Oh my god, those are the Harletts. And
I said to the person next to me, I think
I have to disqualify myself. I know, exactly that was
my line. What's my line? Exactly? What's my life? Who
(08:34):
is that bitch too loud singing? Was on a game
show trying to hide who they are? Exactly, bettles Holt.
I actually just got some flowers from bed. Oh how nice. Yeah,
she sent me for the star on the Hollywood Walk
of Fame. And how exciting was that? Jennifer Lewis. It
was a perfect day. Yeah, I mean it went off
(08:56):
without a hitch, and I was so happy. I wore
the yellow because I looked like a bird of paradise.
You look beautiful. I just yeah. And I was telling
the kids to vote that shit with Marrow. I was
very happy about that. Debbie Ellen and Mark Shaman showed up.
It was it was the perfect day. And I knew
you and Kathy were working that day, so I didn't
(09:18):
want to bother y'all. Maybe y'all were working. Well, we
would always show up for you. Are you kidding? We
are in our sixties now, Dahl, How does that feel?
I just turned sixty six, you know, what Yeah, it
feels fucking good. I think so too. What what happens
is the magic of wisdom reveals itself. I agree. I
(09:43):
mean so little stresses me out now. I'm like, taxi, bitch,
get the funk out of here with that. Yes, I
mean really, you saw it going on. Drop all the
shit that didn't work when you ate your sixties, and
then you're like onward into whatever comes next, because we're
in that final third. Absolutely, we're in that last thirty years.
(10:03):
If we're lucky, you know, and you know you know
what I tell people. I sat, I said, listen very carefully.
I got about thirty summers. You don't get one. They're mine. Yep.
I love that. I love that I know more of
who I am, and I like that girl. It's one
(10:23):
thing to walk around to my I love myself. No,
fuck you, bitch, do you like yourself? I like me? Yeah.
I just got back from Africa and I was standing
at the tip of the Motherland with those waves pounding
on those ancient stones out there, and I stood there
(10:44):
and I said it out loud. I said, I like me,
go get them Jenny. Yes, it's that Jenny, not that
Jennifer motherfucking Lewis. I'm talking about that Jenny, that little
girl in Saint Louis. Absolutely of the Saint Louis Lewis
is only you can say that's right. And I never
forgot it when you open your shirt with that Oh
(11:06):
my god, in love with this woman. What am I
gonna do? Right? You did? You loved me, You loved
me from the start. Well, honey, you're so spectacular. It's
hard to keep your eyes off you. You steal every
show you're in, every movie, every part you like. I'm like,
fucking there's Jennifer Lewis again, you know. And you kept
going and going and going and going, and I'm so
(11:28):
proud of all your accomplishments. And black at you, I
mean really, honey, black at you, baby, black at you.
I've seen you in your dramatic acting work. You're so good.
I just sit here and go, there's my baby girl,
there's my baby doing it all. Funny girl, dramatic girl,
good human being. Honest. It's that honesty that sites me
(11:52):
more than anything. Same with me. I tell people, Yeah,
I tell people, bitch, there's no shortcut to greatness. No,
you gotta overturn every stove yea, you don't get to
skip around the truth. That's why they say the truth,
whole truth, nothing but the truth. Yes, indeed, so I
admire that in you. I really do. Just just they
(12:13):
call it down to earth, but it's uh, it's more
powerful than that. It's being in the moments present. So true. Yeah,
so important. And you know the things that I couldn't
stop from little Row when I was a kid, to
big Row now is the need to always tell what
(12:35):
was happening in my life. And you know, I think
it comes from a childhood of abuse. It comes from
having to be hyper sensitive to what people's moods are,
you know, and then trying to figure out my own
in the midst of that. Yeah, where is that shoe
coming from? Yes? Where is that shoe from? Mamma coming from? Shoe?
You don't even know it. It's you, and I gotta
(12:57):
tell you Row all. Oh god, I'm so excited to
even say this. I feel so free in my life,
not bound by waiting for somebody to let me know
if I got the gig. You see. Sure it's been
a while since that kind of shit, since our audition
for anything, but back in the day, coming up with
(13:17):
that do they want me? Am I good enough? I
actually had a step up on them. Though I knew
I had a gift, they couldn't really fuck with me.
I would walk into an audition room and see all
of them sitting on the toilet, right, you see, So
I wasn't fucking intimidated. But the point I want to
make about that honesty is I have no secrets. I
(13:40):
gave them all up in the two books I've written,
which are beautiful. Yeah, here it is, bitches. Here's the molestation,
here's the sex addiction, Here's the bipolar disorder. Here it
all is laid down on the paper. Take it and
run with it. Because once you read all that shit,
all you gotta do is come back to me. And
(14:00):
all I can tell you is look at me now,
right right, no stone overturned. You know, I swim down stream.
I don't have to go upstream anymore, right, And it
is so freeing. That's exactly the word that I would use.
Like something changed at fifty. It didn't bother me. I
didn't think anything of it, but something about sixty, like
(14:20):
in my mind, the people who are sixty or like
Vivian Vans, you know, yeah, say to Thompson from family,
like those people are all sixty and now I'm one
of them, you know, right, And and I remember my
great aunts when they were in their sixties, how they
had so many health issues. All right, and you know
you can live long now if you take care of yourself.
(14:42):
We know how now how to eat? You know, we
have to get up and move our bodies. We know
we have to be honest. Going back to that, keep
the stress off. It's stress that causes all these diseases.
You know, when you are in fact dis ease. Now,
how do you fu with that? You keep people away
from you that are trying to quat your joy? Yes,
(15:06):
I mean that is that is a real thing. Because
you know me, when I get up, I get up skipping. Yes,
I'll wake the fuck up and skip by the big
come on bit, just bring a day, Yes, fucking sign
is up. And you know, and then you dropped down
to a full split with no problem. I've seen you
do it, girl, I've seen you do it girl. You
(15:29):
know I've always been athletic. You know, I played racquetball, softball,
did pilates for damn did thirty years. Yoga. Yoga was
real important too, to center myself, you know, especially with
the bipolar disorder, right, the mania and the depression. And
I tell people, you know, once you the first thirty
five years of my life, I was depressed. I didn't
(15:51):
really know it. Shit, I just thought everybody cried at night. Shit, right,
you know, living in the world, that's you know that
you just break the fuck down. What was that movie
with Holly Hunter or she would just break the fuck down?
An old movie broadcast about But yes, yes, I remember
when I first saw that. I was like, oh that's
how I am. Yeah, breaked out a fucking aunt go
(16:14):
across the street. Oh look at that poor aunt, right,
and you know it's just a huh. It was life, right,
So when I was diagnosed, I really wanted tells like, God, damn,
that does describe me. Hey, don't go away, We'll be
right back with more. Jennifer Lewis, it was nineteen ninety
(16:54):
when you got diagnosed, Yeah, and had your life become
unmanageable that you finally went to get a diagnosis or
had you always been in therapy it No, it was
the height of the AIDS epidemics. I fell apart, girl,
I mean, I found myself on the floor screaming, and
just so happens a girlfriend that I really respected, she
(17:16):
said to me, Jennifer, you got to get some help.
I'm like, bitch, I'm Jennifer Little. There only no fucking help. Right.
But when all of my friends started dying like that,
I knew something was wrong. I would go to auditions
and literally fall apart. I remember auditioning for thirty something
and Peter Wharton looking at me and said, what's wrong you?
(17:36):
You can do this, I've seen your work just fell apart.
And it was when that started happening, I was like, okay, yeah,
time to do something. And I got in therapy. The
first two years she was just the captive audience. Yeah,
I mean she cocked. I know exactly that feeling. Yeah.
She would ask me, Jennifer, why are you performing? Yeah,
(17:56):
I'm like, no, bitch, this is what's going on. Yeah. So,
when you thought to get to those real feelings that
are really deep in your soul from the childhood abuse
and the acting out so many years and running, running, running, right,
you just find out you're going to meet yourself when
you get there. So, now, when they told you the diagnosis,
(18:18):
Because when I got diagnosed, with severe depression. It was
right after Columbine and I had this two little babies,
and I was waking up every night thinking somebody was
in my house with a gun, that kids were going
to be killed in schools. I couldn't I couldn't fathom
how this was happening in my world. And it caused
me such dress. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I
(18:41):
couldn't stop crying. I could hardly do my show without
like squeezing aline muscles to try to stop myself from
having feelings. And so this doctor said to me, you're
going to go on these medicines. You're severe panic, you
have severe PSD, you have severe you know, a depression
like I've never seen, and you need to be medicated.
And I said okay, because I was a mess. And
(19:03):
I said how long am I going to have to
take these? And she said the rest of your life?
And I was like, okay, I get it. Yeah, and
I've been medicated for now about thirty five years. I
would say, yeah. For me, it's since ninety nine. Yeah.
I get up every morning, I take three pills and
I go about my business. You know, I ain't no
(19:24):
shame in my game. Bring it. Come on, y'all, let's
get it together. This shit is real, yes, I mean
you can't believe it at first. You're like, oh, honey,
I can't get on that ship. That shit's gonna take
my edge, right. Well, no, it didn't take my edge.
It put me in a place where a level. I
wasn't high high, and I wasn't low low, right. I
(19:45):
was in a level place where I could enjoy my life,
enjoy my success. So I still I take care of myself.
I'm managed. And all I can say is, you know,
look at me now, and bitches exactly, I still got
a big old smile on my face. Yeah, no, you do.
It hasn't take anything from you. Jennifer Lewis, I was
(20:05):
very moved during the height of Kanye's severe mental issued
trauma that he's going through that you really reached out
in a beautiful way. I saw you on a bunch
of interviews and you know, you're like, call me, call
me kid, And I kind of felt the same way.
You know, I was like, yeah, I wish I could
reach him, you know all of it. It seemed to
(20:25):
me that I know he had a traumatic brain injury
when he got in that car accident before he was known,
and he was living with his mom, and then I
think when he lost his mom, something just shattered inside
of him. You know. You know, mental illness is one thing,
but I'm not, certainly not saying Kanye is evil by
any means. I just know a lot of people that
(20:46):
are berline personality disorder. Me too. There's a meanness that
comes with it, and I'm like, you know what, that's unacceptable.
I'm bipolar and I can be mean. Okay, maybe three
times a year, okay, maybe four, but you know, come on, yeah,
I mean waking up and saying, you know, I'm going
def Khan five on the Jews. No, hey, hey, hey,
(21:08):
come here, yeah, come here, hey, yeah hey, yes, you know,
we got people down South with torches going the Jews
will not replace me. We don't eat that bullshit. What
you want to start? When all those followers of Civil War, right,
the fuck is wrong with you? Shut the fuck up?
And I meant that because I was mad. But the
(21:30):
undercurrent of that is the undercurrent of that is Kanye
come here, yes, come here, pup it, come here. And
you know, my name's Jennifer Lewis, and I understand what
you're going through totally. You're not alone, but you cannot
(21:52):
if they're not ready. There's nothing you can do. There's
nothing you can do. There's nothing you can do. Yeah,
old baby, he's gonna I just hope that he that
he can find his way. I really do, because he
means a lot to a lot of people. Yes, he
has a huge following. These kids listen to him. They're
(22:14):
very protective of him. I've certainly found that out. When
I told them to shut the fuck they like Auntie
back off, Kanye Am. I response to them with, no,
go fuck yourself right. That baby's got some issues, and
how about you go take care of yours and don't
roll up on me, bitch, because I know who I
am exactly, and y'all can't drag me. No. I've been
(22:35):
fighting out here for you for a ten thousand years,
whether the breast cancer, whether it was AIDS, whether it
was the community, I don't care what it is, civil rights.
I know who I am. Don't come for me, right,
Don't come for me, especially because you know you tend
to mother everyone, the mother of black Hollywood that you are,
absolutely and you know he's an orphan. Absolutely little boys
(22:57):
sort of lost in the world alone, is how I
look at him. Everyone goes, why do you look at
him as a little boy. I'm like, I don't know,
but I see the child that he was, and I
just that's arrested development. Yeah. If that's not arrested development
as this hype, what is I mean? He is a baby.
He's a baby to us, Yes, and we are here
(23:17):
to say, hey, I've been through it. Yeah, I know
what you're going through. Not come here, let me show
you your way out. Let me show you that. Yeah,
come here, you said, right here, and let me tell
you a thing or two, or for that matter, show
you a thing or two. Right here, it is in
black and white. Here's that scared little girl, right, Here's
(23:39):
that baby. Here's that baby that was molested by the
past of her church. Here's another baby that was abused
and beaten and still have the scars to prove it. Yeah.
So I'm not here to minimize your pain, but I'm
not gonna let you tell me that your pain is
more important than everybody else. Exactly, grow the fuck up.
(24:00):
But you know, as you know, and I know, borderline
personality disorder is like really not treatable. Oh not row.
I can't call the name, but somebody we both love
got that borderline and it I had to make a
profound decision to let go. Yeah, there's nothing you can
do that. You can't even have a logical conversation because
(24:22):
the disease itself, it ain't nothing wrong with me. Now,
how you're going to penetrate that ever? Ain't if there's
nothing wrong, and we can't come to the table and
at least discuss. And I tried to get that person
in rehab. I did everything, and when it's borderline, there's
just nothing you can do but let that person go
and live. Yeah, And it's absolutely heartbreaking, you know, especially
(24:45):
when it close in your life, when it's somebody oh yeah, right,
or close to your intimate circle of people. And I
have found that no matter what transpires in my relationship
with her, there's no say eavings account at her bank. No,
like anything that I've done in the world kind of
(25:06):
to help or try to help or be there, there's
no record of it in her psyche, in her mind. No.
So every need a fault, Yeah, always it was your fault, right,
I did nothing. I did nothing, And you're like but
it's always a two way street. When there's any kind
(25:27):
of confrontation or there's any kind of interaction, it's two way. Yeah. Anyway,
I'm not going to sit here and try to explain logic,
but what we have to do if you love that person,
if you truly do love them, right, you gotta let
them go because they'll kill you. They will so true.
I just did that, you know, about a month ago,
(25:50):
and I gotta tell you it's the hardest thing I've
ever done. And every day indeed tempted to reach out again,
and I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop right, don't participate.
I look, I look at my friend's picture, and I
want to reach out also. And then I look in
the mirror right after that, and I say, you want
(26:11):
to die? Yeah, save yourself, man, because she's gonna kill you. Yes,
So you want to invite that back into your life.
Then you add on top of everything that you have
to struggle with, all of your challenges and all the
challenges I already have. Can you carry that? Yeah? Hey,
how heavy is that luggage? Missus Lewis? Yeah? Wait a
(26:34):
minute at sixty six? Right, hey? And once again, if
you have developed oh, girl, this is so deep, if
you really do have that magical wisdom, if you've actually
looked in the mirror and say, oh my god, I've
grown up and I care not only about the people
(26:55):
I love, I care about the world. Yes, if you
can reach a point of that where in you can
you invite somebody back to destroy everything you've worked for,
because they will destroy it because your heart is so vulnerable, right,
they will find that place and go stab here's stab
(27:18):
a rut. Yeah, you go take this knife, Take this knife.
You're gonna take this knife. Let me get a bigger one. Yeah. Here,
I'm back for some more. Here I am yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Come on. It's too hard, man, it's too hard. Did
your mania have epicis? Like I've read about people who,
you know, they wake up and they're in another country
and they or they've spent all their money or you know,
(27:40):
did you ever No? I never got that bad. Yeah,
I never got that bad. I was always conscious of
the mania, unable to stop it. But I will say this,
I don't think I've ever said this before. I was
basically a good girl. I was a good girl, and
I wasn't out there to hurt anybody. I didn't want
(28:03):
to hurt anybody. I always thought, you know, my karmel
was instant. If I actually raged at someone, I'd walk
right outside and trip and fall and bust my lip.
If I kicked a piece of furniture, I would, you know,
turn my ankle. So I learned pretty early that you
(28:23):
only hurt yourself when you do that. I'm not saying
I could control it every time, but I will say this,
this is real talk. There wasn't a time in my
life that I raged at someone and didn't say I
was sorry, and I meant it, Yeah, I meant it.
I meant it. Yeah. And I told my friend that
(28:46):
same for it. One time I had raged and I
apologized and she said, no, I don't accept it. And
I said, very clearly, well, I'm going upstairs and I'm
going to go to sleep, and I am going to
sleep well with peace of mind, because I know when
I say I'm sorry, I mean it right. So you
(29:08):
go do what you gotta do. But I'm going to sleep,
and I'm going to sleep peacefully because I know who
I am right, and I know that something deep inside
of me did not mean to go that far right.
And I knew I was my pole of it. I knew. Yeah, yeah,
but you know, look, when you got personalities like you
and me, that personality is going to break through that
(29:32):
medication sometimes. Yes, I'm sorry, we are right alpha women. Yeah,
that's right. I'm like, bitch, I'll say to somebody in
a minute, Hey, it ain't if I was on a drip, bitch,
it ain't that much medication in the world, right, that's
gonna stop this personality from coming through sometimes, right, I
totally hear you. So basically, I'm telling you you've been warned.
(29:56):
Back the fuck up right, I'm alpha, and if you know,
approach with caution. Oh, don't come in here, right, Believe me.
I'm not gonna come for you because I ain't got time.
But if you're coming over here, because I know I
got a lot of joy in my life. My book
is called Walking in My Joy. I'm not gonna leave
(30:17):
a boutique, a grocery store for that night. I'm let
alone a meeting or a party and not have everybody
laughing before I leave the fucking No, before the drinks
are served. Honey, you didn't before the odrves. Come on you,
you are the light of every party and everything you're in, Honey,
you are look I'm coming in. Yeah, don't invite me
(30:41):
or don't hire me, bitch, because yeah, I'm gonna steal
the motherfucking scene. Don't even think somebody's looking at you
if I'm in a SA Now, why is that, miss Lewis?
Why is that? Because I was gifted? Bitch? I came
out singing at the moment, right, you understand? So I
can't stop that. I tell people, well, not even me
(31:01):
can stop me. So you might want to back the
fuck up. This is what's coming to the table. And
have I had to deal with that? Have I had
to deal with working with really a list of people
and they snuffed my shit out? Of course? Yes, I've
had to deal with that. Have I had to deal
with people showing up and doing Jennifer Lewis absolutely either
(31:26):
for that matter still and material for my one Woman's shows. Yes,
But my dean of students at my university, I went
in her office and I was crying. I said, my
girlfriend shared every time I do something, she comes out
on stages, she does it. And my dean of students
said this to me. This has carried me from being
(31:46):
hurt in this business, having been treated like a step
child because people are intimidated by my talent. I know that.
Come on, it real what she said to me in
that office, and it really carried me through life. She said, Jennifer,
you don't get too upset, she said, don't get too
(32:08):
upset about that, because I've known you for three years
now and I've seen your work and by the time
somebody has caught onto something you've done, you've gone on
to something new. Anyway, I was gonna say, you got
ten more in your back pocket, thank you. So I've
been able to weather that storm, and oh a fucking storm.
(32:31):
Matter has been, you see, because I have been treated
like a step child in this business. Oh I've risen
to the top. I mean, I'll tell a bitch in
a minute, yo, bitch, I metched in fucking Marvel now
at Hollywood and buy go fuck yourself right. I did it.
I got the biggest one totally. So go on now
(32:52):
if you go on, because I'm cool and like I
said on that day when I got the star on
the Hollywood Walk of Fame, everybody out here knows I
am well. I didn't need this to tell me. I
was a star. Nor to tell you that I'm a stop.
But did I earn this bitch? Yes, everybody knows that too. Yes,
let's celebrate. Yea, this is a beautiful day. And I
(33:13):
was very grateful, and believe it or not, a little
humility was thrown in there. I don't know much about that,
that word, but you don't needed. Hey, I found out
something about you while I was doing a little research,
even though I didn't have to read anything because I knew.
But there was a fact I did not know that
(33:35):
you played Effie White in the read through of dream
Girls for Michael Bennett. Wasn't only the read through, it
was the workshop itself. Why Actually, at that point they
had fired Jennifer Holiday and they brought me in, the actress,
to develop the role. I did a six week workshop
(33:56):
with Loretta and Cheryl and all of the cast in
Harney and over babatun Day. We were all there. We
were kids, and I could sing, yes, but nobody could
sing like that girl. So they used me the actress,
to develop the role, and then hired her back. And
at that time, you know, I didn't know the show
(34:17):
was going to be the big hit that it did.
So I didn't care. I was getting ready to go
out on a national tour with You Be, another Broadway
show I had done. And what was brilliant about Michael
Bidnett is he started that whole thing about workshops before
the show went into rehearsal for Broadway. The contract was
that if you were in one of the workshops and
(34:39):
contributed your talent to the development of the show, if
the show went to Broadway, you would get paid a
percentage wow throughout the run. So I'd never a step
foot on the Broadway stage to play Effie, but I
was peppy throughout the run. Wow, how about that? So
that was quite the ill And like I said, I
(35:01):
didn't know it was going to be the hit that
it was. So when they said they were going to
hire Jennifer, I was like, Okay, hey, Rosie, until I
came back to town and saw that fucking billboard of
Sheryl and Loretta and all of them standing there like that.
Yeah with this mouth, I went all fuck right. But
you know, look, I had my triumphs, I had my losses,
(35:22):
and it's just wonderful to grow up and realize that
once you've owned something, you can't lose it Now, once
you've looked through a door, you can't pretend you didn't
see what was on the other side. Right. So, like
I said, it's the magical wisdom that is the prize.
(35:44):
Who knew it was coming, who knew it would be
this comforting? Yes, to wake up and not be afraid
to face the day. Ye, to have done the work
and be able to trust yourself walking into any room beautiful,
you know, because you bring the glory and the Hallelujah
(36:05):
with you. You know you you bring it into the
room because you trust who you are, because you know
you live on purpose, and you wrote down this morning
what the fuck you were gonna do today? Right, I'm
in charge of this bitch. Yes, Like you know, I'm
going through something right now, and depression will kind of
(36:26):
inch in, it will start the inch. I was like, oh, man,
I gotta deal with Hey, get the fuck out Jitny,
right Jenny, Jenny, Jenny, Oh no, you won't. But one thing,
Rosie too. I guess it's like anything else you practice.
I actually am finding that I am incapable of going
(36:47):
into depression. Wow, it doesn't register anymore. I'm like, oh no, bitch,
you might want to go once you learn to ballance
your life. Yeah, with the bad ship that's going on,
you gotta come over here, and you got to look
at some mountains, bitch, Yes, you gotta go and hug
(37:08):
a fucking treat if you got to get in nature. Man. Yeah,
you know it's funny. I moved to the beach here
in Malibu about six months ago. And yeah, I always
when I lived here, you know, wanted to be near
the beach, but I just never did it. And so
Fran Drescher has a place here. And for thirty years,
I've been going to a place, going I would love
to live like this. And I turned sixty and I
(37:28):
call my brother who does my money, and I go, Tim,
I'm going to rent a house that's very expensive in
Malibu for one year. Yeah. And I've been here and
it's changed so much in my life and world about
my own depression, my own joy of life, my own
journey that I you know, now as the leases coming
(37:49):
up and I'm looking at the prices, and you know,
I would give this money away in a minute without
thinking about it. But will I spend it on me
and my own happiness? Hello? Hello? Yeah? I tell people
row human beings have one job and one job only
self care. Yes, and when you do that, your arms
(38:13):
will be strong when the people you love fall. Yes.
And that includes communities, charities, all of it. One thing
you have to understand when tragic things happen in your life.
The first piece is to balance. Who were you before
the shit happened? Okay? Or you taking responsibility at least
(38:34):
some of the responsibility for it happening. Yes, come on now, Oh,
I created this great job, but did you create this? Right?
Take some responsibility? Right, you create everything? So come on, hey, righty,
So you take responsibility and then you balance. And then
I gotta change my password because I'm getting I'm getting
(38:55):
read to tell everybody what the password is. Okay, password is.
I got up, bitches, I got up bitches. That's a
good one, man, That is a good one. Mine for
years was be still. Oh, because my desire to confront
all the wrongs and stand up for the underdog and
(39:17):
help every poor kid and save all the abuse kids
it's too much. And I just had to tell myself
be still. So every time I signed in, that was
what I was doing. Be still. Okay, let me center
myself what I did too so what I did too. Yes,
we have these great careers and all we want to
do is give back, and that is certainly what I do.
(39:41):
But I'm going to be honest, which I take care
of Jennifer Lewis first, I really do. I take care
of myself first. I got the kids. Got this thing
on the internet where I say, I get up every morning.
I brushed my teeth, I spit it out, I leaned forward,
I look in the mirror, I pause, and I say,
(40:01):
pretty bitch, and then I go on my way. Then
I love you so much. Can I tell you how
wonderful the show is. I love this for you. Oh
my god, honey, what a little gem, what a perfect
little character study. You're wonderful in it. All the women
(40:22):
are amazing. One of my favorite shows. And I heard
it just got picked up right. Well, now, we don't
know yet. You may know something I don't know. I
heard from an actress on the show that there is
really yes I did. I have not heard yet. And
you know, I don't go skipping and jumping for joy
to that fucking contractor side. But am I enjoying? First
(40:43):
of all, let me just say that Vanessa Bay and
Molly Shannon genius that matter, the whole cast. I am
in an environment now, and as I know, you know,
this is my best work. Yes, the playing Patricia, I
would claim is my best work. It's beautiful. But I
am in an environment where I can create like that. Yes,
(41:06):
makes all the difference. Oh my god, Molly Shannon and
Vanessa bay A too good too. Oh my god. I
have to say. I have to say to Vanessa Baya
every episode, I have to look at it, go what,
especially when I first got there, go what the fuck
are you doing? Yeah? Yeah, why did you just bite
(41:27):
the air? Right? Who bites the a? Vanessa? Yeah? Vanessa
and Platricia, my character has to of course stand there
and be the bitch that she is, right, And I
got Vanessa squeaking our pants. I got her doing all
the little things. Oh my god, hilarious. I live the
(41:49):
You know, I wasn't familiar with Vanessa's work. I really wasn't.
And I wasn't either. We grew up with Molly. Yes, Molly,
I knew everything and love everything, and I was like,
who's this other girl? She's unbelievable, She's so good. Molly
is oh Jennifer, Oh, let's massage the scene. Now, I'm like, here,
(42:10):
come this bitch. I'm fifty. I can kick the same
bitch that tongue kiss the tree right, and fell into
chairs with Whitney Hilston. Yes, when they called me Rosie.
When they called me because I just finished eight years
on Black and right, would y'all leave me alone? Give
me please? But they called me and said Molly Shannon,
(42:33):
I said, bitch, you had me at Hello. Yes, because
of nothing else. I know I'm gonna have fun and guests.
Who was on the zoo? Who's that executive producer and
creator star the show, Vanessa band Right? Well, I had
no idea. Oh she was really I've seen a work
in Na, you know, and say night live. But we,
(42:54):
like I said, we grew up with Molly, and Vanessa's
sitting there and I'm going, oh, Molly shared it. Yeah,
I've been with and Vanessa and I joke about it
all the time. She said. I just sat there and
thought she hates me, but she's so good I still
want to hire her. Well, she's a smart woman to
(43:17):
cast all you and the writing and best armstrong as
her mom is just I love to see her and
Rogers all of the kid fantasts I mean, and like
I said, the best thing about it is we have
created an environment in order to give you guys like
you said this, Jim Jam, I love that. I agree,
(43:39):
h of a show. Listen, Honey, I love you and
I could talk to you over and over and over.
I love you so much than you so much. All right, Pumpkin, Hey,
(44:11):
We're about to answer some of the questions that you
our listeners have sent in. You just record a voice
memo on your phone and then send it to Onward
Rosie at gmail dot com, and we will answer your
question if we see fit. Take it away. Who's the
first question? Hi, Rose. My name is Matt Curry and
(44:32):
I live in Nova Scotia, Canada. Hi Matt Curry, thank
you so much for bringing this podcast to life. I'm
so delighted to have you back in my kitchen again
and listening to the interesting conversations that you're having so far.
My question is, what is the biggest misunderstanding about you? Huh?
(44:54):
I think the biggest misunderstanding about me, Matt is that
I'm tough. You know, I have like a cadence and
a kind of continence of sort of being a tough
New York girl, you know, And when people get to
meet me and they have not met me before, they're like,
I can't believe what is softer you are? You know?
I really am like I cry kind of often. I
(45:17):
am very mushy. I'm very emotional, and I'm not really
all that tough, although I do stand up for what
I believe in. But I think the biggest misconception is
that I'm a toughie, and frankly, I ain't. All right.
We got another one coming up. Who we got next? Hello, Rosie,
I'm Sandra and doctor Sandstorm on TikTok. I wanted to
(45:42):
congratulate you on your new podcast. I just listened to
it on a walk and it was just so refreshing
to hear you and Sharon talking about how you visualize
your futures and they came to pass and I just
wanted to ask you a question. And knowing that we
(46:02):
do this, we visualize our futures and we manifest them,
I wonder what you think about all the attention that
we pay to the negativities in our environment and what's
going on in our world. I'm the mother of a
trans daughter, and I worry about her every day, and
I have to keep up on what's going on in
(46:25):
the politics of our country. And yet sometimes I feel
like by focusing on it, I'm bringing about more and
I wonder what your thoughts are on that. Wow, well,
that's a fascinating conversation. I think my first thought, of course,
would be to get as much information as I could
to keep my daughter safe. And I also realized at
(46:48):
the same time how overwhelming that can be, especially now
with the Republican led organized attack on the LBGTA community,
and it's terrifying what's happening to trans people. It's terrifying
how they're trying to use us once again as a
voting wedge, as as something that they can use to
(47:12):
anger and discredit and shame people and oftentimes get them killed.
You know, I think that we do give power to things,
and then we can manifest them by thinking them. You know,
I think therefore, I am I mean, I do believe
(47:34):
that we choose and manifest our life as we as
we live it. And and the balance that we need
to find between information and instinct, between caring and coverage.
You know, though, that's a balance that we all have
to struggle with and find out how to make that
(47:56):
work in our life. Hey, thank you all for tuning in.
Please leave me a voice em if you can. Next
week on this podcast, Onward with Rosie o'donald. I almost
call it a blog every day, that's how old I am.
It's not a blog, people, it's a podcast. Next week
is Dylan Mulvaaney, who's a wonderful young woman that you
probably know from TikTok, who filmed her transition and filmed
(48:19):
a year of her life as she transitioned from male
to female. And she's a wonderful young woman and we
had a very interesting conversation. She's the age of my
elder children, and I feel like a parent to her.
I feel like, you know, like a mom. And I
was curious about things I didn't understand and she definitely
(48:42):
helped me. And all of that comes out next week
Onward with Rosie o'donald Dylan Mulvaaney, So don't miss that.
So thank you all very much and peace out.
Well, hey everybody, it's me Rosie O'Donnell. How are you.
I'm good, I'm good boy. It's been one hell of
a week. Huh. You know the thing about podcasts is
they're not live, so we record them as close to
the drop date as we can. But things happen in
the world, and you know, today I think what I'm
(00:32):
still thinking of and what has rocked my soul, and
once again, you know, open the Columbine wound that happened
to all of us with it being pretty much the
first huge school shooting that we all remember April twentieth,
nineteen ninety nine, and that brings me back to this
(00:52):
latest school shooting in Nashville, where three children and three
adults were killed, and you know, it overwhelms me. I
don't understand how this keeps happening in our country and
how senators and congress people feel like it's okay to
(01:13):
say on the news the day after this horror that
nothing can be done. How is that possible? Nothing can
be done? I'm sick of hearing it, and I think
a vast majority of Americans are too. We need to
ban assault weapons, and I wrote that on my TikTok
(01:33):
and people wrote in Oh my sickon Amendment right this, Well,
let's amend the amendment. Then. I think that automatic weapons,
assault rifles weapons of war. Sorry, civilians cannot have them.
And that's the point where we're at, you know. I
(01:54):
remember talking to Rory Kennedy last week and her telling
me that the top scientists in the world say we
could have six maybe ten years before it's not fixable
what we've done to the climate. And we're in an
emergency and not fixable, right, what's going to happen? I mean,
(02:15):
you can't just pretend you don't see these things. Willful
blindness is going to end up ruining the earth, you know.
And we have willful blindness in this country about assault weapons.
And when we had an assault weapon ban, there were
much less school shootings. You know, the statistics, everybody can
(02:37):
look them up. We've known them for too long. You know.
You got to stand up and force our representatives to
speak for the people. You can't love guns more than
you love kids. Really sad, really hard, and it's really
hard to keep fighting the same fight. I remember when
(03:00):
I spoke out after Columbine to Tom Selleck, who then
was a representative of the NRA. You know, it was
a big controversy. How could you say that? How could
we not have said it? Look, what's happened since a
thousand school shootings, since Columbine in America. It's crazy, it's crazy,
(03:26):
and we can't live this way, and we have to
stand up and say it. You know, I've been trying
not to listen to the news because what's going on
in Israel and the streets and them fighting against net
and Yahoo, and in France the fights and the protests
against Macron who wants to change the retirement age by
two years. And you know, I saw some photos and
(03:49):
video of people eating in a French bistro and outside
trash cans, on fire road blockades, people eating, just you know,
what's happened to our world? Very very sad. Really is
well now that I brought the show to a complete
halt and nobody wants to listen. We have a great
(04:10):
guest today, we really do. And we talk a little
bit about mental health. We talk a little bit about Columbine,
which you know started me on my journey and medication
of medication of my mental health issues, and I am
so incredibly grateful. But the guest is Jennifer Lewis. Jennifer Lewis,
(04:30):
who is one of the most talented people I have
ever met in my life. I saw her in nineteen
ninety four in her one woman show, The Diva Is Dismissed,
and I was like, I'm in love with her. I'm
in love with her. I met her then, but before then,
before then, I knew who she was because I saw
Bette Midler and concerts so many times that I could
(04:52):
recognize her backup singers when they weren't with her, you know,
I mean, that's a whole different gig. You know. I
was doing a game show and well we tell the
story in it. But she's here today, and she has
written two books, The Mother of Black Hollywood and Walking
in My Joy in the Streets. You know, she's amazing,
(05:14):
and I love her philosophy of life. I love her
perspective of the world. I love her ability to have
self insight, and and I love the way she carries herself.
I really do. Years and years ago, maybe thirty years ago,
we all were in Laguna to see Bette Midler and
(05:37):
Jennifer was performing with Bet I believe at that time,
and she was there with Mark Shaman and me and
a bunch of people or I saw them right after
they came back, and they were all singing the song
that Jennifer made up when she was in Laguna because
she got there and she was the only black person
that she saw in the whole entire town. So she
made up this song that goes something like this, Hey
(06:00):
white folks, I'm sorry I could not get here sooner.
I'm the only black girl in Lagoonah, And we would
sing it over and over and over. So this interview
has no beginning because we just jump in right. She
sees me on the FaceTime thing and I see her
(06:22):
and we're going, you know, we start talking the words
to hey white girl, I'm sorry I could not get
here sooner, but we never explain what it is. So
there is a little explanation about your little song. You're
gonna hear us do a little staccato version of Anyway,
she's here and we're talking about everything, and I just
adore her, and I know that you will too. So
(06:44):
fair warning, there's a lot of cursing in this episode
because when she and I sit around, that's what we do.
So you might not want to listen at work. Or
else put your headphones on. I mean, it's not like
so much cursing that you're watching, you know, like a
Tarantino film, But there's enough cur thing that you could
get in trouble by someone saying, what the fuck are
you listening to? You know what I'm saying. This is
(07:04):
Arnward with Rosie O'Donnell, and this is episode three. Oh honey,
hi baby, how are you? Oh girl? Some of shit
(07:26):
is going on? What's going down? And what's going down?
I'm gonna tell you all the good shit? All right? Hey,
why folks, I'm sorry, bitches, I could not be Assuna.
You're the only black girl in Laguna. Holy mother bucker.
Oh my, how long ago was that, Jennifer Lewis? That
(07:46):
must have been a good thirty years ago. It had
to be thirty. Yes, we've known each other a long time.
Oh my god, Row Row Do you remember the first
time we met? Where it was and mar Chavis? Nope?
It was on the talk show Third Degree? Do you
remember that you and Charlowe were trying to get us
(08:11):
to guess on the Burke Convy hosted Third Degree, a
very short lived game show, And I looked at you
and went Oh my god, those are the Harletts. And
I said to the person next to me, I think
I have to disqualify myself. I know, exactly that was
my line. What's my line? Exactly? What's my life? Who
(08:34):
is that bitch too loud singing? Was on a game
show trying to hide who they are? Exactly, bettles Holt.
I actually just got some flowers from bed. Oh how nice. Yeah,
she sent me for the star on the Hollywood Walk
of Fame. And how exciting was that? Jennifer Lewis. It
was a perfect day. Yeah, I mean it went off
(08:56):
without a hitch, and I was so happy. I wore
the yellow because I looked like a bird of paradise.
You look beautiful. I just yeah. And I was telling
the kids to vote that shit with Marrow. I was
very happy about that. Debbie Ellen and Mark Shaman showed up.
It was it was the perfect day. And I knew
you and Kathy were working that day, so I didn't
(09:18):
want to bother y'all. Maybe y'all were working. Well, we
would always show up for you. Are you kidding? We
are in our sixties now, Dahl, How does that feel?
I just turned sixty six, you know, what Yeah, it
feels fucking good. I think so too. What what happens
is the magic of wisdom reveals itself. I agree. I
(09:43):
mean so little stresses me out now. I'm like, taxi, bitch,
get the funk out of here with that. Yes, I
mean really, you saw it going on. Drop all the
shit that didn't work when you ate your sixties, and
then you're like onward into whatever comes next, because we're
in that final third. Absolutely, we're in that last thirty years.
(10:03):
If we're lucky, you know, and you know you know
what I tell people. I sat, I said, listen very carefully.
I got about thirty summers. You don't get one. They're mine. Yep.
I love that. I love that I know more of
who I am, and I like that girl. It's one
(10:23):
thing to walk around to my I love myself. No,
fuck you, bitch, do you like yourself? I like me? Yeah.
I just got back from Africa and I was standing
at the tip of the Motherland with those waves pounding
on those ancient stones out there, and I stood there
(10:44):
and I said it out loud. I said, I like me,
go get them Jenny. Yes, it's that Jenny, not that
Jennifer motherfucking Lewis. I'm talking about that Jenny, that little
girl in Saint Louis. Absolutely of the Saint Louis Lewis
is only you can say that's right. And I never
forgot it when you open your shirt with that Oh
(11:06):
my god, in love with this woman. What am I
gonna do? Right? You did? You loved me, You loved
me from the start. Well, honey, you're so spectacular. It's
hard to keep your eyes off you. You steal every
show you're in, every movie, every part you like. I'm like,
fucking there's Jennifer Lewis again, you know. And you kept
going and going and going and going, and I'm so
(11:28):
proud of all your accomplishments. And black at you, I
mean really, honey, black at you, baby, black at you.
I've seen you in your dramatic acting work. You're so good.
I just sit here and go, there's my baby girl,
there's my baby doing it all. Funny girl, dramatic girl,
good human being. Honest. It's that honesty that sites me
(11:52):
more than anything. Same with me. I tell people, Yeah,
I tell people, bitch, there's no shortcut to greatness. No,
you gotta overturn every stove yea, you don't get to
skip around the truth. That's why they say the truth,
whole truth, nothing but the truth. Yes, indeed, so I
admire that in you. I really do. Just just they
(12:13):
call it down to earth, but it's uh, it's more
powerful than that. It's being in the moments present. So true. Yeah,
so important. And you know the things that I couldn't
stop from little Row when I was a kid, to
big Row now is the need to always tell what
(12:35):
was happening in my life. And you know, I think
it comes from a childhood of abuse. It comes from
having to be hyper sensitive to what people's moods are,
you know, and then trying to figure out my own
in the midst of that. Yeah, where is that shoe
coming from? Yes? Where is that shoe from? Mamma coming from? Shoe?
You don't even know it. It's you, and I gotta
(12:57):
tell you Row all. Oh god, I'm so excited to
even say this. I feel so free in my life,
not bound by waiting for somebody to let me know
if I got the gig. You see. Sure it's been
a while since that kind of shit, since our audition
for anything, but back in the day, coming up with
(13:17):
that do they want me? Am I good enough? I
actually had a step up on them. Though I knew
I had a gift, they couldn't really fuck with me.
I would walk into an audition room and see all
of them sitting on the toilet, right, you see, So
I wasn't fucking intimidated. But the point I want to
make about that honesty is I have no secrets. I
(13:40):
gave them all up in the two books I've written,
which are beautiful. Yeah, here it is, bitches. Here's the molestation,
here's the sex addiction, Here's the bipolar disorder. Here it
all is laid down on the paper. Take it and
run with it. Because once you read all that shit,
all you gotta do is come back to me. And
(14:00):
all I can tell you is look at me now,
right right, no stone overturned. You know, I swim down stream.
I don't have to go upstream anymore, right, And it
is so freeing. That's exactly the word that I would use.
Like something changed at fifty. It didn't bother me. I
didn't think anything of it, but something about sixty, like
(14:20):
in my mind, the people who are sixty or like
Vivian Vans, you know, yeah, say to Thompson from family,
like those people are all sixty and now I'm one
of them, you know, right, And and I remember my
great aunts when they were in their sixties, how they
had so many health issues. All right, and you know
you can live long now if you take care of yourself.
(14:42):
We know how now how to eat? You know, we
have to get up and move our bodies. We know
we have to be honest. Going back to that, keep
the stress off. It's stress that causes all these diseases.
You know, when you are in fact dis ease. Now,
how do you fu with that? You keep people away
from you that are trying to quat your joy? Yes,
(15:06):
I mean that is that is a real thing. Because
you know me, when I get up, I get up skipping. Yes,
I'll wake the fuck up and skip by the big
come on bit, just bring a day, Yes, fucking sign
is up. And you know, and then you dropped down
to a full split with no problem. I've seen you
do it, girl, I've seen you do it girl. You
(15:29):
know I've always been athletic. You know, I played racquetball, softball,
did pilates for damn did thirty years. Yoga. Yoga was
real important too, to center myself, you know, especially with
the bipolar disorder, right, the mania and the depression. And
I tell people, you know, once you the first thirty
five years of my life, I was depressed. I didn't
(15:51):
really know it. Shit, I just thought everybody cried at night. Shit, right,
you know, living in the world, that's you know that
you just break the fuck down. What was that movie
with Holly Hunter or she would just break the fuck down?
An old movie broadcast about But yes, yes, I remember
when I first saw that. I was like, oh that's
how I am. Yeah, breaked out a fucking aunt go
(16:14):
across the street. Oh look at that poor aunt, right,
and you know it's just a huh. It was life, right,
So when I was diagnosed, I really wanted tells like, God, damn,
that does describe me. Hey, don't go away, We'll be
right back with more. Jennifer Lewis, it was nineteen ninety
(16:54):
when you got diagnosed, Yeah, and had your life become
unmanageable that you finally went to get a diagnosis or
had you always been in therapy it No, it was
the height of the AIDS epidemics. I fell apart, girl,
I mean, I found myself on the floor screaming, and
just so happens a girlfriend that I really respected, she
(17:16):
said to me, Jennifer, you got to get some help.
I'm like, bitch, I'm Jennifer Little. There only no fucking help. Right.
But when all of my friends started dying like that,
I knew something was wrong. I would go to auditions
and literally fall apart. I remember auditioning for thirty something
and Peter Wharton looking at me and said, what's wrong you?
(17:36):
You can do this, I've seen your work just fell apart.
And it was when that started happening, I was like, okay, yeah,
time to do something. And I got in therapy. The
first two years she was just the captive audience. Yeah,
I mean she cocked. I know exactly that feeling. Yeah.
She would ask me, Jennifer, why are you performing? Yeah,
(17:56):
I'm like, no, bitch, this is what's going on. Yeah. So,
when you thought to get to those real feelings that
are really deep in your soul from the childhood abuse
and the acting out so many years and running, running, running, right,
you just find out you're going to meet yourself when
you get there. So, now, when they told you the diagnosis,
(18:18):
Because when I got diagnosed, with severe depression. It was
right after Columbine and I had this two little babies,
and I was waking up every night thinking somebody was
in my house with a gun, that kids were going
to be killed in schools. I couldn't I couldn't fathom
how this was happening in my world. And it caused
me such dress. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I
(18:41):
couldn't stop crying. I could hardly do my show without
like squeezing aline muscles to try to stop myself from
having feelings. And so this doctor said to me, you're
going to go on these medicines. You're severe panic, you
have severe PSD, you have severe you know, a depression
like I've never seen, and you need to be medicated.
And I said okay, because I was a mess. And
(19:03):
I said how long am I going to have to
take these? And she said the rest of your life?
And I was like, okay, I get it. Yeah, and
I've been medicated for now about thirty five years. I
would say, yeah. For me, it's since ninety nine. Yeah.
I get up every morning, I take three pills and
I go about my business. You know, I ain't no
(19:24):
shame in my game. Bring it. Come on, y'all, let's
get it together. This shit is real, yes, I mean
you can't believe it at first. You're like, oh, honey,
I can't get on that ship. That shit's gonna take
my edge, right. Well, no, it didn't take my edge.
It put me in a place where a level. I
wasn't high high, and I wasn't low low, right. I
(19:45):
was in a level place where I could enjoy my life,
enjoy my success. So I still I take care of myself.
I'm managed. And all I can say is, you know,
look at me now, and bitches exactly, I still got
a big old smile on my face. Yeah, no, you do.
It hasn't take anything from you. Jennifer Lewis, I was
(20:05):
very moved during the height of Kanye's severe mental issued
trauma that he's going through that you really reached out
in a beautiful way. I saw you on a bunch
of interviews and you know, you're like, call me, call
me kid, And I kind of felt the same way.
You know, I was like, yeah, I wish I could
reach him, you know all of it. It seemed to
(20:25):
me that I know he had a traumatic brain injury
when he got in that car accident before he was known,
and he was living with his mom, and then I
think when he lost his mom, something just shattered inside
of him. You know. You know, mental illness is one thing,
but I'm not, certainly not saying Kanye is evil by
any means. I just know a lot of people that
(20:46):
are berline personality disorder. Me too. There's a meanness that
comes with it, and I'm like, you know what, that's unacceptable.
I'm bipolar and I can be mean. Okay, maybe three
times a year, okay, maybe four, but you know, come on, yeah,
I mean waking up and saying, you know, I'm going
def Khan five on the Jews. No, hey, hey, hey,
(21:08):
come here, yeah, come here, hey, yeah hey, yes, you know,
we got people down South with torches going the Jews
will not replace me. We don't eat that bullshit. What
you want to start? When all those followers of Civil War, right,
the fuck is wrong with you? Shut the fuck up?
And I meant that because I was mad. But the
(21:30):
undercurrent of that is the undercurrent of that is Kanye
come here, yes, come here, pup it, come here. And
you know, my name's Jennifer Lewis, and I understand what
you're going through totally. You're not alone, but you cannot
(21:52):
if they're not ready. There's nothing you can do. There's
nothing you can do. There's nothing you can do. Yeah,
old baby, he's gonna I just hope that he that
he can find his way. I really do, because he
means a lot to a lot of people. Yes, he
has a huge following. These kids listen to him. They're
(22:14):
very protective of him. I've certainly found that out. When
I told them to shut the fuck they like Auntie
back off, Kanye Am. I response to them with, no,
go fuck yourself right. That baby's got some issues, and
how about you go take care of yours and don't
roll up on me, bitch, because I know who I
am exactly, and y'all can't drag me. No. I've been
(22:35):
fighting out here for you for a ten thousand years,
whether the breast cancer, whether it was AIDS, whether it
was the community, I don't care what it is, civil rights.
I know who I am. Don't come for me, right,
Don't come for me, especially because you know you tend
to mother everyone, the mother of black Hollywood that you are,
absolutely and you know he's an orphan. Absolutely little boys
(22:57):
sort of lost in the world alone, is how I
look at him. Everyone goes, why do you look at
him as a little boy. I'm like, I don't know,
but I see the child that he was, and I
just that's arrested development. Yeah. If that's not arrested development
as this hype, what is I mean? He is a baby.
He's a baby to us, Yes, and we are here
(23:17):
to say, hey, I've been through it. Yeah, I know
what you're going through. Not come here, let me show
you your way out. Let me show you that. Yeah,
come here, you said, right here, and let me tell
you a thing or two, or for that matter, show
you a thing or two. Right here, it is in
black and white. Here's that scared little girl, right, Here's
(23:39):
that baby. Here's that baby that was molested by the
past of her church. Here's another baby that was abused
and beaten and still have the scars to prove it. Yeah.
So I'm not here to minimize your pain, but I'm
not gonna let you tell me that your pain is
more important than everybody else. Exactly, grow the fuck up.
(24:00):
But you know, as you know, and I know, borderline
personality disorder is like really not treatable. Oh not row.
I can't call the name, but somebody we both love
got that borderline and it I had to make a
profound decision to let go. Yeah, there's nothing you can
do that. You can't even have a logical conversation because
(24:22):
the disease itself, it ain't nothing wrong with me. Now,
how you're going to penetrate that ever? Ain't if there's
nothing wrong, and we can't come to the table and
at least discuss. And I tried to get that person
in rehab. I did everything, and when it's borderline, there's
just nothing you can do but let that person go
and live. Yeah, And it's absolutely heartbreaking, you know, especially
(24:45):
when it close in your life, when it's somebody oh yeah, right,
or close to your intimate circle of people. And I
have found that no matter what transpires in my relationship
with her, there's no say eavings account at her bank. No,
like anything that I've done in the world kind of
(25:06):
to help or try to help or be there, there's
no record of it in her psyche, in her mind. No.
So every need a fault, Yeah, always it was your fault, right,
I did nothing. I did nothing, And you're like but
it's always a two way street. When there's any kind
(25:27):
of confrontation or there's any kind of interaction, it's two way. Yeah. Anyway,
I'm not going to sit here and try to explain logic,
but what we have to do if you love that person,
if you truly do love them, right, you gotta let
them go because they'll kill you. They will so true.
I just did that, you know, about a month ago,
(25:50):
and I gotta tell you it's the hardest thing I've
ever done. And every day indeed tempted to reach out again,
and I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop right, don't participate.
I look, I look at my friend's picture, and I
want to reach out also. And then I look in
the mirror right after that, and I say, you want
(26:11):
to die? Yeah, save yourself, man, because she's gonna kill you. Yes,
So you want to invite that back into your life.
Then you add on top of everything that you have
to struggle with, all of your challenges and all the
challenges I already have. Can you carry that? Yeah? Hey,
how heavy is that luggage? Missus Lewis? Yeah? Wait a
(26:34):
minute at sixty six? Right, hey? And once again, if
you have developed oh, girl, this is so deep, if
you really do have that magical wisdom, if you've actually
looked in the mirror and say, oh my god, I've
grown up and I care not only about the people
(26:55):
I love, I care about the world. Yes, if you
can reach a point of that where in you can
you invite somebody back to destroy everything you've worked for,
because they will destroy it because your heart is so vulnerable, right,
they will find that place and go stab here's stab
(27:18):
a rut. Yeah, you go take this knife, Take this knife.
You're gonna take this knife. Let me get a bigger one. Yeah. Here,
I'm back for some more. Here I am yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Come on. It's too hard, man, it's too hard. Did
your mania have epicis? Like I've read about people who,
you know, they wake up and they're in another country
and they or they've spent all their money or you know,
(27:40):
did you ever No? I never got that bad. Yeah,
I never got that bad. I was always conscious of
the mania, unable to stop it. But I will say this,
I don't think I've ever said this before. I was
basically a good girl. I was a good girl, and
I wasn't out there to hurt anybody. I didn't want
(28:03):
to hurt anybody. I always thought, you know, my karmel
was instant. If I actually raged at someone, I'd walk
right outside and trip and fall and bust my lip.
If I kicked a piece of furniture, I would, you know,
turn my ankle. So I learned pretty early that you
(28:23):
only hurt yourself when you do that. I'm not saying
I could control it every time, but I will say this,
this is real talk. There wasn't a time in my
life that I raged at someone and didn't say I
was sorry, and I meant it, Yeah, I meant it.
I meant it. Yeah. And I told my friend that
(28:46):
same for it. One time I had raged and I
apologized and she said, no, I don't accept it. And
I said, very clearly, well, I'm going upstairs and I'm
going to go to sleep, and I am going to
sleep well with peace of mind, because I know when
I say I'm sorry, I mean it right. So you
(29:08):
go do what you gotta do. But I'm going to sleep,
and I'm going to sleep peacefully because I know who
I am right, and I know that something deep inside
of me did not mean to go that far right.
And I knew I was my pole of it. I knew. Yeah, yeah,
but you know, look, when you got personalities like you
and me, that personality is going to break through that
(29:32):
medication sometimes. Yes, I'm sorry, we are right alpha women. Yeah,
that's right. I'm like, bitch, I'll say to somebody in
a minute, Hey, it ain't if I was on a drip, bitch,
it ain't that much medication in the world, right, that's
gonna stop this personality from coming through sometimes, right, I
totally hear you. So basically, I'm telling you you've been warned.
(29:56):
Back the fuck up right, I'm alpha, and if you know,
approach with caution. Oh, don't come in here, right, Believe me.
I'm not gonna come for you because I ain't got time.
But if you're coming over here, because I know I
got a lot of joy in my life. My book
is called Walking in My Joy. I'm not gonna leave
(30:17):
a boutique, a grocery store for that night. I'm let
alone a meeting or a party and not have everybody
laughing before I leave the fucking No, before the drinks
are served. Honey, you didn't before the odrves. Come on you,
you are the light of every party and everything you're in, Honey,
you are look I'm coming in. Yeah, don't invite me
(30:41):
or don't hire me, bitch, because yeah, I'm gonna steal
the motherfucking scene. Don't even think somebody's looking at you
if I'm in a SA Now, why is that, miss Lewis?
Why is that? Because I was gifted? Bitch? I came
out singing at the moment, right, you understand? So I
can't stop that. I tell people, well, not even me
(31:01):
can stop me. So you might want to back the
fuck up. This is what's coming to the table. And
have I had to deal with that? Have I had
to deal with working with really a list of people
and they snuffed my shit out? Of course? Yes, I've
had to deal with that. Have I had to deal
with people showing up and doing Jennifer Lewis absolutely either
(31:26):
for that matter still and material for my one Woman's shows. Yes,
But my dean of students at my university, I went
in her office and I was crying. I said, my
girlfriend shared every time I do something, she comes out
on stages, she does it. And my dean of students
said this to me. This has carried me from being
(31:46):
hurt in this business, having been treated like a step
child because people are intimidated by my talent. I know that.
Come on, it real what she said to me in
that office, and it really carried me through life. She said, Jennifer,
you don't get too upset, she said, don't get too
(32:08):
upset about that, because I've known you for three years
now and I've seen your work and by the time
somebody has caught onto something you've done, you've gone on
to something new. Anyway, I was gonna say, you got
ten more in your back pocket, thank you. So I've
been able to weather that storm, and oh a fucking storm.
(32:31):
Matter has been, you see, because I have been treated
like a step child in this business. Oh I've risen
to the top. I mean, I'll tell a bitch in
a minute, yo, bitch, I metched in fucking Marvel now
at Hollywood and buy go fuck yourself right. I did it.
I got the biggest one totally. So go on now
(32:52):
if you go on, because I'm cool and like I
said on that day when I got the star on
the Hollywood Walk of Fame, everybody out here knows I
am well. I didn't need this to tell me. I
was a star. Nor to tell you that I'm a stop.
But did I earn this bitch? Yes, everybody knows that too. Yes,
let's celebrate. Yea, this is a beautiful day. And I
(33:13):
was very grateful, and believe it or not, a little
humility was thrown in there. I don't know much about that,
that word, but you don't needed. Hey, I found out
something about you while I was doing a little research,
even though I didn't have to read anything because I knew.
But there was a fact I did not know that
(33:35):
you played Effie White in the read through of dream
Girls for Michael Bennett. Wasn't only the read through, it
was the workshop itself. Why Actually, at that point they
had fired Jennifer Holiday and they brought me in, the actress,
to develop the role. I did a six week workshop
(33:56):
with Loretta and Cheryl and all of the cast in
Harney and over babatun Day. We were all there. We
were kids, and I could sing, yes, but nobody could
sing like that girl. So they used me the actress,
to develop the role, and then hired her back. And
at that time, you know, I didn't know the show
(34:17):
was going to be the big hit that it did.
So I didn't care. I was getting ready to go
out on a national tour with You Be, another Broadway
show I had done. And what was brilliant about Michael
Bidnett is he started that whole thing about workshops before
the show went into rehearsal for Broadway. The contract was
that if you were in one of the workshops and
(34:39):
contributed your talent to the development of the show, if
the show went to Broadway, you would get paid a
percentage wow throughout the run. So I'd never a step
foot on the Broadway stage to play Effie, but I
was peppy throughout the run. Wow, how about that? So
that was quite the ill And like I said, I
(35:01):
didn't know it was going to be the hit that
it was. So when they said they were going to
hire Jennifer, I was like, Okay, hey, Rosie, until I
came back to town and saw that fucking billboard of
Sheryl and Loretta and all of them standing there like that.
Yeah with this mouth, I went all fuck right. But
you know, look, I had my triumphs, I had my losses,
(35:22):
and it's just wonderful to grow up and realize that
once you've owned something, you can't lose it Now, once
you've looked through a door, you can't pretend you didn't
see what was on the other side. Right. So, like
I said, it's the magical wisdom that is the prize.
(35:44):
Who knew it was coming, who knew it would be
this comforting? Yes, to wake up and not be afraid
to face the day. Ye, to have done the work
and be able to trust yourself walking into any room beautiful,
you know, because you bring the glory and the Hallelujah
(36:05):
with you. You know you you bring it into the
room because you trust who you are, because you know
you live on purpose, and you wrote down this morning
what the fuck you were gonna do today? Right, I'm
in charge of this bitch. Yes, Like you know, I'm
going through something right now, and depression will kind of
(36:26):
inch in, it will start the inch. I was like, oh, man,
I gotta deal with Hey, get the fuck out Jitny,
right Jenny, Jenny, Jenny, Oh no, you won't. But one thing,
Rosie too. I guess it's like anything else you practice.
I actually am finding that I am incapable of going
(36:47):
into depression. Wow, it doesn't register anymore. I'm like, oh no, bitch,
you might want to go once you learn to ballance
your life. Yeah, with the bad ship that's going on,
you gotta come over here, and you got to look
at some mountains, bitch, Yes, you gotta go and hug
(37:08):
a fucking treat if you got to get in nature. Man. Yeah,
you know it's funny. I moved to the beach here
in Malibu about six months ago. And yeah, I always
when I lived here, you know, wanted to be near
the beach, but I just never did it. And so
Fran Drescher has a place here. And for thirty years,
I've been going to a place, going I would love
to live like this. And I turned sixty and I
(37:28):
call my brother who does my money, and I go, Tim,
I'm going to rent a house that's very expensive in
Malibu for one year. Yeah. And I've been here and
it's changed so much in my life and world about
my own depression, my own joy of life, my own
journey that I you know, now as the leases coming
(37:49):
up and I'm looking at the prices, and you know,
I would give this money away in a minute without
thinking about it. But will I spend it on me
and my own happiness? Hello? Hello? Yeah? I tell people
row human beings have one job and one job only
self care. Yes, and when you do that, your arms
(38:13):
will be strong when the people you love fall. Yes.
And that includes communities, charities, all of it. One thing
you have to understand when tragic things happen in your life.
The first piece is to balance. Who were you before
the shit happened? Okay? Or you taking responsibility at least
(38:34):
some of the responsibility for it happening. Yes, come on now, Oh,
I created this great job, but did you create this? Right?
Take some responsibility? Right, you create everything? So come on, hey, righty,
So you take responsibility and then you balance. And then
I gotta change my password because I'm getting I'm getting
(38:55):
read to tell everybody what the password is. Okay, password is.
I got up, bitches, I got up bitches. That's a
good one, man, That is a good one. Mine for
years was be still. Oh, because my desire to confront
all the wrongs and stand up for the underdog and
(39:17):
help every poor kid and save all the abuse kids
it's too much. And I just had to tell myself
be still. So every time I signed in, that was
what I was doing. Be still. Okay, let me center
myself what I did too so what I did too. Yes,
we have these great careers and all we want to
do is give back, and that is certainly what I do.
(39:41):
But I'm going to be honest, which I take care
of Jennifer Lewis first, I really do. I take care
of myself first. I got the kids. Got this thing
on the internet where I say, I get up every morning.
I brushed my teeth, I spit it out, I leaned forward,
I look in the mirror, I pause, and I say,
(40:01):
pretty bitch, and then I go on my way. Then
I love you so much. Can I tell you how
wonderful the show is. I love this for you. Oh
my god, honey, what a little gem, what a perfect
little character study. You're wonderful in it. All the women
(40:22):
are amazing. One of my favorite shows. And I heard
it just got picked up right. Well, now, we don't
know yet. You may know something I don't know. I
heard from an actress on the show that there is
really yes I did. I have not heard yet. And
you know, I don't go skipping and jumping for joy
to that fucking contractor side. But am I enjoying? First
(40:43):
of all, let me just say that Vanessa Bay and
Molly Shannon genius that matter, the whole cast. I am
in an environment now, and as I know, you know,
this is my best work. Yes, the playing Patricia, I
would claim is my best work. It's beautiful. But I
am in an environment where I can create like that. Yes,
(41:06):
makes all the difference. Oh my god, Molly Shannon and
Vanessa bay A too good too. Oh my god. I
have to say. I have to say to Vanessa Baya
every episode, I have to look at it, go what,
especially when I first got there, go what the fuck
are you doing? Yeah? Yeah, why did you just bite
(41:27):
the air? Right? Who bites the a? Vanessa? Yeah? Vanessa
and Platricia, my character has to of course stand there
and be the bitch that she is, right, And I
got Vanessa squeaking our pants. I got her doing all
the little things. Oh my god, hilarious. I live the
(41:49):
You know, I wasn't familiar with Vanessa's work. I really wasn't.
And I wasn't either. We grew up with Molly. Yes, Molly,
I knew everything and love everything, and I was like,
who's this other girl? She's unbelievable, She's so good. Molly
is oh Jennifer, Oh, let's massage the scene. Now, I'm like, here,
(42:10):
come this bitch. I'm fifty. I can kick the same
bitch that tongue kiss the tree right, and fell into
chairs with Whitney Hilston. Yes, when they called me Rosie.
When they called me because I just finished eight years
on Black and right, would y'all leave me alone? Give
me please? But they called me and said Molly Shannon,
(42:33):
I said, bitch, you had me at Hello. Yes, because
of nothing else. I know I'm gonna have fun and guests.
Who was on the zoo? Who's that executive producer and
creator star the show, Vanessa band Right? Well, I had
no idea. Oh she was really I've seen a work
in Na, you know, and say night live. But we,
(42:54):
like I said, we grew up with Molly, and Vanessa's
sitting there and I'm going, oh, Molly shared it. Yeah,
I've been with and Vanessa and I joke about it
all the time. She said. I just sat there and
thought she hates me, but she's so good I still
want to hire her. Well, she's a smart woman to
(43:17):
cast all you and the writing and best armstrong as
her mom is just I love to see her and
Rogers all of the kid fantasts I mean, and like
I said, the best thing about it is we have
created an environment in order to give you guys like
you said this, Jim Jam, I love that. I agree,
(43:39):
h of a show. Listen, Honey, I love you and
I could talk to you over and over and over.
I love you so much than you so much. All right, Pumpkin, Hey,
(44:11):
We're about to answer some of the questions that you
our listeners have sent in. You just record a voice
memo on your phone and then send it to Onward
Rosie at gmail dot com, and we will answer your
question if we see fit. Take it away. Who's the
first question? Hi, Rose. My name is Matt Curry and
(44:32):
I live in Nova Scotia, Canada. Hi Matt Curry, thank
you so much for bringing this podcast to life. I'm
so delighted to have you back in my kitchen again
and listening to the interesting conversations that you're having so far.
My question is, what is the biggest misunderstanding about you? Huh?
(44:54):
I think the biggest misunderstanding about me, Matt is that
I'm tough. You know, I have like a cadence and
a kind of continence of sort of being a tough
New York girl, you know, And when people get to
meet me and they have not met me before, they're like,
I can't believe what is softer you are? You know?
I really am like I cry kind of often. I
(45:17):
am very mushy. I'm very emotional, and I'm not really
all that tough, although I do stand up for what
I believe in. But I think the biggest misconception is
that I'm a toughie, and frankly, I ain't. All right.
We got another one coming up. Who we got next? Hello, Rosie,
I'm Sandra and doctor Sandstorm on TikTok. I wanted to
(45:42):
congratulate you on your new podcast. I just listened to
it on a walk and it was just so refreshing
to hear you and Sharon talking about how you visualize
your futures and they came to pass and I just
wanted to ask you a question. And knowing that we
(46:02):
do this, we visualize our futures and we manifest them,
I wonder what you think about all the attention that
we pay to the negativities in our environment and what's
going on in our world. I'm the mother of a
trans daughter, and I worry about her every day, and
I have to keep up on what's going on in
(46:25):
the politics of our country. And yet sometimes I feel
like by focusing on it, I'm bringing about more and
I wonder what your thoughts are on that. Wow, well,
that's a fascinating conversation. I think my first thought, of course,
would be to get as much information as I could
to keep my daughter safe. And I also realized at
(46:48):
the same time how overwhelming that can be, especially now
with the Republican led organized attack on the LBGTA community,
and it's terrifying what's happening to trans people. It's terrifying
how they're trying to use us once again as a
voting wedge, as as something that they can use to
(47:12):
anger and discredit and shame people and oftentimes get them killed.
You know, I think that we do give power to things,
and then we can manifest them by thinking them. You know,
I think therefore, I am I mean, I do believe
(47:34):
that we choose and manifest our life as we as
we live it. And and the balance that we need
to find between information and instinct, between caring and coverage.
You know, though, that's a balance that we all have
to struggle with and find out how to make that
(47:56):
work in our life. Hey, thank you all for tuning in.
Please leave me a voice em if you can. Next
week on this podcast, Onward with Rosie o'donald. I almost
call it a blog every day, that's how old I am.
It's not a blog, people, it's a podcast. Next week
is Dylan Mulvaaney, who's a wonderful young woman that you
probably know from TikTok, who filmed her transition and filmed
(48:19):
a year of her life as she transitioned from male
to female. And she's a wonderful young woman and we
had a very interesting conversation. She's the age of my
elder children, and I feel like a parent to her.
I feel like, you know, like a mom. And I
was curious about things I didn't understand and she definitely
(48:42):
helped me. And all of that comes out next week
Onward with Rosie o'donald Dylan Mulvaaney, So don't miss that.
So thank you all very much and peace out.
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