January 2, 2024 • 50 mins
Writer, Actor, Producer, and Creator Lena Waithe joins Rosie for this dynamic episode! The two bond over manifesting their careers as they dreamed from a very young age and their incredible love for Mary Tyler Moore. Waithe produced the doc, 'Being Mary Tyler Moore', that Rosie also appears in...
Their powerful conversation is a true heart to heart about how different a person and their persona might be; using their voice and platform to support others, especially those who are other; and speak honestly about how impossible it is to be all things to all people. And then some! This is an episode you don't want to miss!
We'll be back on January 16, 2024 with a new show consisting entirely of your questions and comments for Rosie!
Please send your voice memos to OnwardRosie@gmail.com (2 min or under if possible!)From all of us at Onward with Rosie O'Donnell, Have A Very Happy and Healthy Holiday and New Year!!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
All right, hey everybody, it's me and you found it again.
This is Onward with Rosie O'Donnell and I of course
am Shaka Khan. I feel for you. I think I
love you. I don't know why I do that all
the time. It really amuses only me. Anyway, we have
a wonderful, wonderful show for you Lena Wait this year,
(00:32):
and she is just amazing and everything she does. We
have a wonderful conversation about growing up and people who
resembled us on TV kind of mask presenting tomboyish girl
boys or boy girls. You know, I don't know. My
daughter would claim that's non binary. They are ten years old.
(00:55):
And they asked me when we were in therapy last
week if I would get the work they tattooed on
my inner wrists so that I would always see it
and always get it right. And I think I'm going
to do that for Dakota. I think that Dakota really
wants me to do it right. And I'm really trying,
(01:18):
and it's tough. I was at Kathy Griffin's wonderful Salon
party honoring the lunch honoring Dylan mulvaney and it's a
wonderful afternoon. She throws a great salon party, and there
are rules, and Kathy's very strict about the rules, but
it all works out in the end and had a
(01:38):
great time. And two of the other women there were
mothers had children who are also They them pronouns, and
we all were talking about how, over sixty, how hard
it is to change the way that you perceive and
the pronouns that you use for your own kid. It's
(01:59):
not done at listen, I understand fully the need to
have your pronouns be correct, and believe me, I'm trying,
but my little ten year old is teaching me so anyway,
Lena and I talk about that about life, about about
just being who you are, and how that is so
(02:21):
valuable in today's society. Authenticity, I think is the only
thing that's worth its weight in gold. So Lena, today,
right now, don't go away. Well, hello, Lena, how are you?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'm so good, Rosie O'Donnell. I'll have to be talked
to you.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
You know, I was really so fascinated by everything I
learned about you while I was preparing for this interview.
Right first of all, that I'm twenty two years older.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Than you, okay, got its.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Sting to me, you know, like I look at you
like the next generation. Like I tried to imagine who
it was that you were looking to in the public
sphere that you thought, well, that's kind of like me.
Was there anyone at that point?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Well, you know, I think the reason why this is
like so full circle is because I watched you every
day at three o'clock in Chicago. I remember one time
when you were interviewing when Whitney finally came back.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
After she missed the show, she was duper Cinderella.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I had to walk. It took me like fifteen minutes
to get home. Bob power walked so school that out
of two forty five, I had to get home. Because
that's the thing. Back, You couldn't t bow.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You can record, no such you had exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
So I was like power walking home to watch her
on the show with you, and it was a great episode,
and you had a funny bit about there being a
security camera outside of her trailer to make sure she
didn't leave, and you were like, I paid the security
guard one hundred bucks to make.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Sure she needs anything exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So you know, so I was watching you and there's
the thing about I think queer folk is that even
if someone doesn't say they're queer, there's a knowing yes,
And so I agree, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Like, it's just.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Really been amazing, I think for me to come up
and to be I never thought I would be on television.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
That's the other thing. Ilways wanted to be a television writer.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Oh it's from the beginning. You didn't want to perform.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
From the beginning, I want your right half power comedy
and I never dreamed about winning an Emmy for that.
That wasn't the goal. I just wanted to be good,
and so I think I didn't realize and watching you,
you know, even though definitely Whoopy as a blueprint, even
though she's not queer, she's a person who the queer
community definitely feels is like someone who's.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Totally she's she's queer adjacent. If anything, she's totally in
the mix of LBGTQYA.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
You know, absolutely, she's like such a you know, a
wonderful ally but you know, like I would see a
queen Latifa, you know, and said that yes, and yes
I would see you know Ellen as well on TV.
And Ellen reached out, you know, after seeing a master
of note, which I was grateful for.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
It's just like there are.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
People that I would look at and I would see
I remember Tasha on The L Word, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It took just a while to get a black girl
up there.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
But yes, that's why I was such a full circle
moment for me to come back and be on the
return of The L Word and to look at Shane
and like us to have a cool scene and.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Same with me. Yeah, yes, right, I had the same
thing with The L Word that when it was first out.
I remember I was a little nervous about who's going
to know? And did people know? You know, you had
to almost watch it in secret, you know, like.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I watched it in secret for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, And to be on it then was really a
full circle moment for me to go in there and go, God,
how far I have come in my own self acceptance
and perhaps cultural acceptance of queerness in a manner that
was not evident when I was a kid growing. I mean,
I didn't have any kind of gay lesbian icon marker
(06:01):
for me, you know, being that I'm twenty two years
older than you. I was trying to think as I
was reading about you, who it was. And I think
the first really mask presenting lesbian that was a superstar
was Katie.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Oh Wow, Katy Lang. And there's also Tracy Chatman.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Tracy, Yes, for sure, for sure, she came on my show.
I was so overwhelmed by her smile and her physical
beauty that I like, she's so shy and so freaking adorable,
like I guess, and such an artist that I was
completely flirting with her, even though I didn't at the time.
If you would have said, were you flirting with Tracy,
(06:41):
I would have been like, no, not me, of course not,
but yes, I definitely was.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I mean obviously like I was Walker being a you know,
obviously on the color.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Purple course, So there's definitely some touch points.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
But I think for me growing up and me being
a product of all that, I think by the time
I appeared on Master of None and ASA had met me,
I was so comfortable in my own skin because I
was also living in Los Angeles, yes, and I was
coming into my own and I just was very comfortable
in my skin. And I remember thinking, if I ever
(07:12):
did become a public person, I would not have to
come out to the public, because I would be out period, right,
And I didn't think about.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
The significance of that.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I don't know how. I want some historians who may
know better than I. But I did not come out
publicly because I was just out. I was a lesbian
on the show. I was a lesbian in real life,
and I think that was new for people. They were like, oh,
so you're just going to be gay and open about it,
and I was like.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, totally, and thank god, thank god all the people
who came before you and encouraged you to live in
your truth. Yes, in the twenty two years of difference
between us, so much had changed.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Absolutely, but you're very much a part of that for me.
So that's why I think it's such a full circle moment.
I remember, I think we met for the first time
at the Netflix special when we were backstage and I
was there introduced Wanda Sykes. Was also a really wonderful moment.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
You were kind enough to let me hang in your
green room, which was a really big moment for me.
I didn't want to geek out and make it weird,
but I was just like, this is insane, like what
so like? And then also, I love you, know Mary
Tyler Moore. And I'm so glad you watched the documentary.
It's just there's so many touch points. So I'm just
really honored to be talking to you. You know, it
took me, took me a beat to get here.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
But well, thank you, Lenna. It's very mutual. I have
to say, I look at you, I look at the
work you've done. I look at the movies you're a
part of. I anticipated in the Mary Charla Moore one
and and I loved the finished product. I loved it.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
And I was so thrilled to see that you had
that much interest in Mary Tyler Moore. I mean, I
I don't know why. I just didn't think to myself, wow,
Lena Waite and Mary Chyla Moore, that that's that's a match.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, you're like that. It wasn't on my Bigo card.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
But how how did she influence you? How did she
influence you?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Well, I'm very grateful that because I'm a student of television,
and specifically half hour television, because that's what I love.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Even though I write.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
You know, people know my drama, they know the Shy
as well, but you know, writing twenties and getting a
chance to work on Master of None. Half hour is
really my sweet spot. So I got to study the greats,
you know. So I watched All in the Family because
my grandmother watching Old tval On the Family, Jefferson's Good Times.
I was a young kid watching those shows. But then
also I want to watch shows that were current to me.
(09:21):
So I wanted to watch a different world, Martin Living Single,
all that kind of stuff. But it was a great
education to see to see my shows that are half
hours that were working and I enjoyed, but then also
to be educated by the Dick Van Dyke Show and
Mary Tyler Moore show.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Also loved Maud. Also big fan of Rota, really loved
Vali Harper makes she rest in Pees.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yes, we have the same exact loves of half hours.
I was to me the goal of life was to
be in a sitcom.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah, you were all give me a break. Then you
do give me a break, that's right. So which I
love Nel Carter.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And at the time when when Nell was very unwell
and very unhappy to be there, and it was my
first thing in showbiz, so like I walked on so
new and excited to be on the lot to do
this is what I always wanted to do, and she
was such in a bad place, you know. And it's
interesting because I had seen her and kind of geeked
out from ain't misbehavior. Wow, you know, I had seen
(10:15):
her on Broadway and was blown away by her, and
so it was so crushing in some ways that you know,
it was the last season, she was not in a
good place in her private life, and it just it
crushed me a little bit, just at the start of
my career.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
No, I get that, and I think there's something about
that story, because we do. There's something about show business,
right that draws us to it. Yeah, and that's its job,
is to razzle dazzle us. And then we get in
there and it's like going you know, backstage at the
you know, at the amusement park, you know what I mean.
You go back there and you see, you know, Mickey
(10:53):
ain't got his hat on, you know, and so it's like, yeah,
this is not what I thought.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
And I think that's the weird thing.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
But people that don't work in the business and don't
see how the sausage is made.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
For them, it's just a beautiful entree.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And for us, it's like you had no idea what
it took to put that on the plate exactly right,
and thinking about Neil Carter as the icon that she is,
it's like, you know, to me, she's you know, a
woman that you know, probably was it also felt like
an unsung hero and probably didn't get some opportunities that
she would have wanted, didn't get to play you know,
the sollly romantic interest, still trying to step out of
certain stereotypes that people would put you know, women that
(11:28):
looked like her in.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yes, totally true.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
But I think that's really how I came to understand
about the importance of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. And
I will say this initially because when I was watching comedy,
it was very fast, you know, Will and Grace and
all that kind of stuff where it's like, yeah, they're
putting like five jokes in a minute, and Marry Tyler Mooreshaw.
One of its most iconic episodes is Chuckles Bice the dust.
(11:50):
You have to wait until the end of the episode
to get the biggest leave. And so what I was
learning about from that the writers was just about pacing
patience character and how you never sell a character down
the river for a joke, and how to make something
timeless and so and that was what fascinated me first.
And then of course I'm a human, as Oaac was
Rahi would say, so of course I'm looking at Mary
(12:11):
telling Moore and I'm just as enthralled by her and like,
who was this person?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Right?
Speaker 3 (12:14):
And then I read her memoir after all when I
was like like end of like high school, and just
because I was fascinated, and her memoir really blew me away,
learning about her alcoholic yes, learning about the loss she
had in her life, and learning about how she could
not have been more opposite from the character she was
playing when she was playing them, you know, and particularly
Mary Richards where she was a married woman that entire time,
(12:38):
and Grant Tinker was, you know, creating this machine that
was MTM, you know, productions that would pump out Saint elsewhere,
and obviously all the spin offs of Mary Tyler Moore
Show as well as Mary Tyler Moore Show itself, and
so it was just very fascinating. And then until she
later in her life when she divorced Grant Tinker and
obviously married her amazing widower, doctor Robert Levine before but
(13:00):
also I love that window post Grant Tinker, Robert Levine.
She actually gets to live like Mary Richards in her
forties in New York City, being single, you know, having
that experience and so and I think that's when she
blossomed the most because she kind of got a chance
to be that independent woman she played so well on television.
So that that's also what the fascination is is about.
(13:21):
I'm really into persona versus the person, and I think you.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Know a whole lot about that.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I certainly do.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Like you know, when you're on every Day, there was
a persona about Romeo Donald.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
It was like, oh, this she is.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And every time with women, it's like they want us
to be their mother. They want us to be kind,
they want us to smile, they want us to coddle them.
So it's like, why is that expected of us as women?
And then when you're queer woman and you have maybe
more masculine energy, you're not deemed to be ladylike, which
means you're not likabule. And there's this desire for women
(13:54):
to be liked that men don't have to deal with totally.
And I think it's something as society we have to
reckon with. And that's all with the center of the
documentary of being Mary telling Moore. So that's a very
long winded answer, but.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
No, but it's so fascinating to me. You know, I
used to watch it all the time. And then when
I was a stand up, a young stand up, it
was on three times in the middle of the night.
It was on after Linda Ellerby from like one o'clock
to three thirty or something, And so I would come
home from waiting to get on stage at Catch or
the Improv, and I'd come to my little apartment in
(14:27):
Queen's and I'd write all of the question trivia questions
in a notebook that I had kept since I was little.
When it was on once a week, and I had
written all these questions, like what's the number of Mary's
apartment when it's the number of roters apartment, like, you know,
really interesting detailed facts. And when I first met her,
she came on the show and she was in her
(14:48):
dressing room and I knocked and came in and she said, oh,
I'm so happy that you're saying hello. On David Letterman.
They don't say hello, they just throw you out there.
I'm like, not only am I going to say hello?
I'm going to show you my trivia book from nineteen
seventy five with two thousand Mary Tarla Moore questions in it.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Was she like mind blown?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
It blew her mind. It changed the way that we
were able to relate to each other because she really
knew that I was a for real legit fan, sort
of like my thing was Streisand you know that she
could have been so annoyed by the You know, in
some ways I could see, as an entertainer of that
(15:31):
legendary status that here comes this new kid, and all
she wants to do is meet you. And then when
she meets me. She even wrote me a letter and said,
you know, when you meet me, the illusion is over.
And I said, not for me, not for me, And
it hasn't. It hasn't changed anything. And it just made
like my knowledge of the truth of manifesting yes, really
(15:56):
come to the forefront. Because I would go to sleep
at night and I would I wonder where she is.
I wonder if she's at dinner in La, I wonder
Whitney Easton. Yes, did you ever get to meet her?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
No? I did not.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
I did not, but I am grateful I got to
see her in concert. I got to see her in concert,
so I'm very grateful for that. My mother made sure
that happened. She came for her My Love as Your
Love tour. She started it in Chicago. Wow, for no reason.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
At although, of course I believe the reason is because
I was there.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
But but but but I remember she was on Oprah.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
You know how everybody had to go through you know,
you gotta go through.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
The Oprah exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Ring of course she was, and she had.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Been on She'd done Oprah many times, but she was
there on Oprah to talk about like I'm here, I'm
gonna be performing, you know, and and Oprah asked her
why Chicago? Why are you starting this in Chicago? And
I remember, of course I'm watching, like with baited breath,
like yeah, why she was like, it's just the first
stop of the tour.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
She left, there's no significance, No, I Love Whitney was.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Like, I'm not going to give you some The tour
manager said we're starting in Chicago exactly. So of course
for me and my family, you know, it was a
big deal. And they were like, oh, well, Lena has
to be in the building and I'll never forget it,
you know, to watch her and it was the first stop.
So she was very like happy to be out there.
She was like she was like, okay, we're back at it,
(17:17):
back on the road again. So I know that's why
I think I related to you so much. And I
love Streisand are you kidding? Like I know, you know
I'm not as like you know ray Man, but I
know I'm a The reason why I love Streisan is
because streisand you know, she tapped Whitney.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
You know, she said like she's she's got something.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
And I remember there's footage because I know I've seen
a lot of fusion Whitning uston of her on Entertainment
tonight and Barbara Streisan has was having something at her
home or something and she was doing something and Whitney
was invited and she was out there like being interviewed
and it was like, look, I'm grateful to be here.
And it was very much like Whitney was like, Barbara
has invited me, and I'm grateful.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I am thankful for that exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Listen to her for sure, and so I think for me,
it's like we're part of a sorority almost.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
You know. It's like those singers are really important.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
But yeah, that's the thing I think I had to
wrap my brain around. I know you got to wrap
your brain around it too. Like we're people that have
obsessed over other people in the public eye totally, and
then now to meet people that see us in that way,
it's a very interesting thing. And I think that's why
I was able to do I've done, you know, I've
been a part of a documentary about Dick Gregory, to
(18:27):
be a part of obviously Mary tellingmore, a document about
this gentleman named.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Ellis Haslib who had a show called Soul.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
He was a queer black man and he had I
got a chance to help get that on HBO Max.
And so I think I'm very fascinated by people who
have impact on a lot of people, right and what
that means. And I think I'm a big believer and
that we're all connected. And so when I would see
you talking about TV shows and your love for this
and that, I saw myself. I was like, and I
(18:56):
saw myself in more ways than one, not just at
our random you know. And so and I just thought, huh,
what your presence on television did was in some way
because I did not want necessarily to be on TV,
but it said there's a place for me in this world.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Wow, it's so beautiful, Lena.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, and I know you. For you, it's like a job.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
You're going every day, the different desks, ibody, doing that
whole thing. It's like, it's just it's it's people sometimes
don't know the significance of just their presence. Yes, And
I now have an understanding of it. And I think
it's why when people meet us, I know, you feel
that pressure. It's like we want them to walk away
feeling good, Yes, because we don't want them to feel like, oh,
(19:36):
this person who I wondered what she was doing every
night before I went to sleep, you know, made me
feel And I don't know if people out there understand
the weight that comes with that.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
It's a big, big burden in many ways. And you know,
people say, why did you leave your show at the
height of its success. Why I couldn't take it anymore.
I couldn't take the lack of humanity that happened. Like
I needed to get off the airplane. Wow, get a
parachute and get back down to Earth, hang out with
(20:07):
my family for a few years, not do anything. Paint,
absorb art that ingest art that I that I love
and it took that long, like four or five years
for me to get back into just being me.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, I get it, and you know,
and I ain't got to bring this up, but I
remember when you came back to.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
TV, you know, and it was a big deal. Yeah,
it was a big.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Deal and you were no longer sitting at a desk
by yourself, but it was such a big thing to.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Have you back in our living rooms again.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, but I think what happened was what happened again
humanity had disappointed you, Yes, and you were like, I
can't be in front of y'all smile and acting like
everything's okay, and.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I can't ignore what's happening in the world because where
women and the man who was running the show thought
that women should talk about things that women don't talk about.
So I would say, in the middle of where it wore,
can we not discuss, you know, or the Bill Cosby thing. No,
we can't discuss the Bill Cosby thing. We can't. There
were so many landmines of what you couldn't couldn't say
(21:12):
that for me, it was the non fit, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
But it's so interesting because who do we talk about
today in turns of influences with the goverg who follows you,
you know what I'm saying, who had to get suspended
for two weeks. It's just like you know, and look,
I've gotten my licks as well because I've understand. I
had to understand that I'm an artist that does not coddle.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I confront correct, you can't.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
But I'm a woman, even though I'm like, They're like,
but you're a woman, even though your mask, you're a lesbian,
You're a woman. You're supposed to give us a happy ending, right,
supposed to survive. Yes, but this is in the history
of Rome and Juliet, Bonnie and Clyde. But being born
black and woman and queer, I am born to be defiant.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Correct, That was in our DNA is there right? When
you are other in a society and you know for
you right away to be born into black skin and
to have that be the world through which you are experiencing,
it's an It's a completely different thing. And the same
(22:17):
way that queerness is not equal and you know, but
but the difference to feel other, to feel other in
our society. We'll be right back with Lena after this.
(22:49):
Do you think that for Whitney that the whole gay
thing was part of her demise? Do you think if
she had been able to say, I'm with Robin, that's it,
leave me alone and then get out there and sing
like you know, do you think that that played a
big part in her early ending?
Speaker 3 (23:08):
You know, it's so fascinating because I I've thought about obviously,
you know, thought about her and her passing a lot,
and I ruminated.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
On a ton.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
What I believe is that in order to be an icon,
there are things you have to leave behind, true, and
I think there are pieces of yourself that you don't
get to have. And I think the biggest choice that
she had to make is do I be an icon
(23:39):
or do I be myself?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And I don't think she could have been both at
that time.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
At that time in society, I agree.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
At that time, and so I think that she chose
in a way, she almost sacrificed herself yes for others. Yes,
because her presence in the world impacted and continues to
impact so many people, regardless of her sexual orientation. Because
she never said it, I don't necessarily adopt it, even
(24:10):
though I do.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I mean I read Robin's book.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
I trust everything, you know, right, he said, And so
I just believe that she was a person that had to.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Be so many things to so many people.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
So many things to so many people.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Yeah, and I think that is what you're talking is
that burden. It's that weight that everybody can't it's hard
to carry it. And I think it shows up in
a lot of different ways. And I think what it was.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
We look out.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
It's so interesting because I'm looking at you know, say
a little nas X, or I'm looking at right, you know,
you know Billy Porter, Yes, exactly. Even though Billy Porter
has been around.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yes he has. We did our first bird Way show together,
me and him.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Oh my gosh, I love Billy. I'm doing a ball
with Billy.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
He is fantastic, really a unique individual and always has been.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Oh my gosh, she's amazing. Actually, I a picture of
me Billy, Lil naz X Cynthia Rivo at the Grammys
Wow a year ago.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So there was as good.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Little Naz came over to say hello, and Billy was
over there and we were like, we gotta capture.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Gotta get a picture of this, Gotta get a picture
of this.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
It's the gayest, blackest photo that ever exists.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
To and good for you, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
But what I look at and even I'm sure little
Naz is looking at people coming up behind him, what
happens is with time, progress.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Is inevitable, yes, And so I love that And.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Even talking to Wanda, you know, at the special were
I think Wanda looks at me and it's just like
what you know, I get to chat with Queen Latifa
and it's a really I love that everybody can see
that I am a beneficiary. I'm a descendant, yes of
you all, and what I'm seeing are descendants of mind.
And so it's like and then now there's like gonna
(25:50):
be kids, there's this new way. I mean, I became
well known from my coming out store you know, we
all on mass from Nohe I didn't come out to
the public coming out on Master of None the Things
Given episode, which a lot of people love and tell
me that I watched that with my parents and it
helped me.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
But now as kids saying like why we gotta come out?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Exactly, man, the kids are gonna be alright. And if
the kids are all right, then we're gonna be okay.
And I think that's what I look at is like
we're waiting for you know, all these folks now that
are in these leadership positions or in these roles, they're
they're not going to be here in ten years.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
No, no, and maybe even less. It's these kids are smart,
they're up standing up for themselves. They're walking out of
school as they're being killed in their classrooms. They're inspiring.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yes, they're drinking less, they're And also I was just
talking to someone today about, you know, the stories I'm
telling now, as you know, we write characters, so you
just did you know I'm friends the Abby Jacobson.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
He did leag of their own.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah, like the stories we're telling now, which is also
such a beautiful thing as like obviously we all obsessed
with Leaga their own and come on hello, but in
the series has its own cult following now as well,
and how obviously this the sort of the kids that
watch The Leader.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yes, can we take it?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Can we take it?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
In?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Gay it up for real? Like it really is. Because
when we were doing the show, Lena, the older women
from the League came on and you know there's like
a woman big like me, Like she's Irish and She's
kind of gruff and she's like, this is my roommate, Patricia, Like,
your roommate? Are we still going by roommate? Are you
in your nineties? How old are you?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
But that was the confines which were placed around them,
and to think, as a grown woman you can live
as a lesbian free in society and be successful and
have people care about you and love you and not
hold it against you.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
No.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I mean I think it's important and I think it's
good for you to say, like, look, this is who
I am, and if you're going to be in business
with me, this is a part of who I am.
And it makes me think about you know, when I
was going through the cast and process a Master of
None with disease, he had an idea of who Denise
was supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
It's so much like the Mary Teller Moore show.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Like for the people like you and I, we know
that Ted Knight, Yes, who would go to play Ted Baxter?
That character originally was supposed to be a handsome guy
who could potentially be a love interest for Mary. Right,
But when Ted Knight walked in, they're like, oh, this
is actually funnier, like.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Much better, you know, a clown, you know what I mean,
walked cronkite, not very bright.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
And so for Denise, she was supposed to be obviously
the girl of the crew that ultimately was supposed to
be a love interest for death eventually for his ease.
And so that's where their heads were, you know. And
I think, by the way, that makes so much sense,
Like he's hanging out with this girl, she's on me.
Did they fall in love?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
So he meets me and I'm open about being queer,
being myself, and they decide, they're like, you know what,
I'll never forget. He was like, we're thinking about just.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Having Denise be like you and be a lesbian and
like rewrite it. And I was like, okayet, that's much
easier for me to play. And we laughed off and
had no idea of how me showing up and being
myself and them embracing who I was and who I
am and saying, you know what, let's just well forget
that version of Denise and make her queer and make
(29:01):
her you know, and go from there.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And I think that's what the rest was history.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
So I think as being ourself, showing up as ourselves,
it's never going to be bad.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
No, even though it might be scary at first, you know,
scarier you know, forty years ago than it was twenty
years ago than it's going to be next month, you know,
And that's the important part. I mean, I love that
you won the Emmy for that. I loved seeing you
get it on the stage. I was so like proud
again that association. You know, you see another queer woman
(29:33):
in show business doing well and being successful, and all
you want to do is root for them.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I appreciate that, and that's why I know we got
to connect. We were on live during the pandemic. But
I think, and just to add to that, because I
was very blessed just to get the commisment speech at
Barnard College and it was my first ever commitsment speech.
And you know, hearing you speak about that, like when
I did whin the Emmys, it's a big deal.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
You know, it's you're on a major stage.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
A black woman had not been nominated in that case
category and just sitting writing in a comedy series, right,
you know, Wanda had won for Variety Comedy, which is
a different category. Mindy Kaling was the only other woman
of color to be nominated in that category for an
episode of the Office. So and then, of course, who
was the amazing, iconic, phenomenal who came after as Quinta Brunson,
(30:18):
who's now the second black woman to ever win in
that category.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
So now there too, We'll keep we'll keep running.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
But I couldn't think of a more amazing woman to
share that honor with, though Quinca's phenomenal. But I think,
you know, for me, when that moment happens, like you said,
I was sort of put on a pedestal and I
was the first black and to person to do something.
And what that does is it puts me in a
place where I'm breathing rare air, but I'm also finding
(30:47):
it hard to breathe. Yes, you know, because it's just impossible.
I can't, you know, I want to do well in
my life. But I think what happens is when you
represent a group of people that are othered in many
different ways, as a black person, as a queer black woman,
as a mass presenting lesbian, which is its own category. Yes,
you then become a representative unwillingly, but you are, you know,
(31:11):
become representative for the whole group of people. And when
you falter. When you stumble, when you fall is heard
and felt in ways that isn't like everybody else. And
I think that's something that I really had to grapple
with and really learn to embrace and not become bitter
or frustrated or say I'm nobody's hero, or rather remind
(31:35):
people that I'm a human.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yes, that you are a human. But you will always
be the first black woman to win that Emmy in writing.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
You will always be a touchstone for those coming up
after you, And I think there's honor in that, and
absolutely that each each achievement needs to live on its
own and not sort of be you know, how does
this compare to who she is as a person? Why
didn't she do this? And we have a charity and
she didn't show up, and all of a sudden, You're like,
(32:05):
within your own group, I'm getting this, you know, within
my own people. Imagine what's happening in.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
The world, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
And so saying all you want to do is be
a beacon for your community, Yes, that's it. But I
think I think I'm sure you understand this and know
this is that sometimes you know, a beacon has to
just exist and and and float off into ce you
know at times, and and still provide a light. But
you know, I think that's when we start to lose ourselves.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
You know. I always say that I'm really.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Blessed, you know, to I honor this gift and uh,
and this gift has fed me really beautifully.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But I don't want the gift to eat me.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yes, and it can and it will. We've seen it.
We've seen it do it to so many people that
you know, we look up to and love and and
to protect your essence and to protect you know, some
people say to me, you're just the same when I
meet you in real life than you are when I
see you what I like. So that's my goal, is
(33:06):
to merge all of this into one.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
And I also think that's why you're who you are,
you know, is I think I don't think people realize
it is not easy to be yourself in front.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Of millions of people, right.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
It is not an easy thing to do, and that's
why so many people create personas you know, And I
think that's why. Not to bring back to Mary tellingmore,
but I think I was so fascinated by this person
that she had to be you know, and there's so
many interviews of her in that first interview in the
documentary which we found, which I had never seen.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I had never seen it either.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I've never seen it, and it's a funnot I would say,
even if you don't care about Mary Tyllermore, if you
don't care about the Mary Tyllermore show, I ask you
to just watch the opening of Mary Tellingmore meeting Mary
Telling Moore, just to see what she was dealing with
at that time and the way she walked that tightrope
without ever making him feel like, you know, because I
(34:03):
think that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
I think what I learned from.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Mary is that she knew how to be a politician
without making you feel like she was a politician, right,
And I think the thing about you was like you're like,
I'm going to beat myself all of that, And I
think what's what I learned from you is like, it's
okay if everybody don't.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Like that self, Yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Because even sometimes I go like, I'll hear you know,
you always giving your opinions about things. Sometimes I like,
I'm like, I don't know if I agree with that one. Rose,
I don't know, I say pace about that, But that's
like there's a level, there's a level of respect. It's like,
you know what, you've been living longer than me, you know,
more than I do. I think we have a difference
of opinion maybe because of you know, what our experiences are.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
But I'm not going to argue with you people. You
know what I'm saying. It's like, there's no need to
do that.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
And so I think what I learned from you is like,
if you're going to have an opinion stated, to make
it plain, but understand that those that disagree are.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Going to come.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
And I think maybe what I may have learned, I'll
be honest roll is that like, maybe there's a part
of me that's like every opinion I have I may
not have to.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Share right publicly.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
You don't have to.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
But I also think it's okay that people don't. Don't
They don't have to hear all of our other private conversations.
Correct As you know, there's a time in Hollywood where
we didn't know what everybody thought. You know, we didn't
hear everybody's opinions on everything.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, sometimes you would. You know, there's great footage of.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Sidney Potier and Harry Belafonte may God rest their souls.
Having real conversations with Baldwin and like world leaders and
it's amazing and they're you know, and also you know,
Lorraine Hansbury would be very involving a writer who was
very politically involved and invested.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So I think that's absolutely absolute space for that.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
But I also think there's time to have conversations where
we're figuring things out.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Without a doubt. And you have to know when you
make a stand publicly. When when I feel cold to
make a stand, like I don't do it, like watch me,
I go like, okay, you have to say something. You
have to say something. Yeah, there are so few women
with a microphone that if it gets, you know, any
play that the point of view that I firmly believe in,
(36:04):
you know, like like especially with the Trump thing, people
in career wise were saying, you can't do that, you
can't just like when I wanted what I did talk
about Woody Allen and my first HBO special e, my
agents were like, you can't do that, it's going to
ruin your career. I'm like, I don't care. Do you
understand I'm not afraid of Woody Allen. I will never
(36:25):
be afraid of Woody Allen and I'm going to tell
the truth of what I feel he is about. And
if you don't believe it or listen to me, you know,
She's like, but you could not get a gig. You
want to hear the weirdest thing, Lena or was that
I get on my talk show and we get a
call from his casting agent. Do I want to roll
in the sweet low down with Sean Penn? I said,
(36:49):
you can tell him. I said, fuck and no two
words for Woody Allen those are my only two words
fan fuck. And now I did not know what isn't
that That's something how he felt that he could get
anyone who didn't approve with him by just getting them
into his artistic I was like, I was so appalled
(37:10):
by that. I thought it was such an unbelievable representation
of the shitty part of Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
You know, wow, you know, but I think to me, like,
that is your brand, you know, it's it's I actually
think it's odd if you aren't you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
There's something that happened.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
You don't have something's going on right, something's weird.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that comes with again that's
your magic.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
That's what people want, that's what people expect.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
And I think that's the other thing too, where I
think you've taken a stand where it's like, look, this
is who I am.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
You need to take it to leave it.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
And I think that is a really, really beautiful space
to be and I think I definitely have done that.
And I try to more so say how do I
put this in the work, you know? And and how
do I put you know, different conversations in the work,
because I believe that everybody in the world thinks that
are right right, everybody thinks they're right correct, and so
(38:05):
you know, I don't want to spend my time trying
to convince someone that maybe they aren't right, because.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I don't know if they're right or not.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
So what I try to do in the work where
it be the Shy and even in Queen and Slim
the conversations that they're having is like, you know, these
are two views, and I want the audience to look
at both and consider them both and to make their
own decision.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Because I think what I as a as a as a.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Telling stories, telling narrative stories, I don't want people to
feel like I'm telling them, what's a thing?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Correct? But it's so that movie Queen and Slim is
so beautiful. It's so beautiful they shot the relationship is unbelievable.
It was gorgeous. It was a gorgeous piece of film.
And I remember when I saw it, I thought, wow,
look at that. Good for her Man, it was you know,
it was epic. Really, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I got some licks. People were definitely not always happy
about the ending. I don't spoiler alert, which I understand
and you know, and I think at the time it
was tough. But it's interesting because I don't know people
realized this. This was before George, you know, Floyd and
Breonna Taylor, and obviously there was still deaths that we
were reeling from, but obviously those had become world news
(39:16):
and we're really catching headlines, and rightfully so, so that
there could be some change and we could all come together.
But I could not have foreseen that. But I saw
people going back and revisiting the film, and because to me,
what was interesting about that time and why I wanted
to tell that story was that I was seeing murals
go up. I was seeing names of people not because
(39:41):
of their accomplishments or what they had done or how
they lived, but because they had been killed by police officers.
That's why I was starting to know people's names, certain
black people's names. And what I wanted to do was say,
you know, we don't let people be forgotten. We wear
t shirts, we put up murals, and we say their names.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
And so I think what people have seen now with
time and looking back at the movie is that no
one ever really dies as long as we keep their
names on our tongues.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
And also I was thinking about I was like, are
there any murals of people who are still alive?
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Interesting? Not really, not really.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
We've done those and have gone. And so I knew
how I wanted to end that film. And I think,
you know, hopefully people really get my intent, which is
they are not dead, they are immortal.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Correct. That's beautiful. It came through I think as a piece.
I love the ending. I thought it was profound and
I thought it was you know, riveting, and it grabbed
everyone and it really brought home the whole meaning of
the movie. How else could it have ended? I don't know.
But I also want to talk Can I talk to
you about your other documentary that I just saw about
(40:58):
the transsex workers. Yeah. Absolutely, I watched the whole thing
Cocomo City. I was very fascinated. I think this is,
you know, a part of our culture that people don't
want to talk about or look at. And thanks to
Pose and all of those wonderful actors on that show,
the stories have become a little more part of the
(41:19):
public consciousness. But that film really spoke to what it
was like for those sex workers and how to form
a life out of that life.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Thank you so much, and thank you for mentioning that.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I want to give a shout out to de Smith
who was the director of that amazing documentary. It's called
Cocomo City. People can rent it on wherever they rent movies.
It's digitally available. You can watch it in your living room.
It's it's a really cool film to watch around people.
But I also think it's an important movie to kind
of sit and really take in and watch, maybe by
yourself or with a few other people that you love.
(41:54):
I Rishi Rijani, who's my CEO of Hilm and grad
a Ventures, he saw that film because he was going
to be doing a panel hosting a panel at Sundance
which De Smiss would be on obviously he wanted to
do his research and he saw the movie. He does
a thing that you know you're not supposed to do,
but he slipped it to me and said, Lena, I
think you should watch this and tell me if you
think there's anything we should do.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
So I was, you know, in London.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
I watched it on my computer and was blown away
and riveted and at that moment, like you said, I
think I should say something for me, I was like,
I think.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
We should be helpful. I think we should be a
part of this.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
And so that's sort of how I can use my
voice at all, is to speak someone else's name and
to make sure people pay attention to this film. And
the film now lives as a tribute in terms of
talking about us and and black folks losing people before
their time unjustly and and is Coco, the doll who
was featured in the in the film, who is now
(42:52):
the film is now really a tribute to her. I
got to meet her at Sundance and she unfortunately did
not live to see the movie come out.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
And that, unfortunately is a part of you.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Know, the reality of sex work.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yeah, this reality and definitely not something we foresaw in
joining this journey. But it's something that everybody needs to
understand and to grapple with and to sit with, and
to make sure that there's change and to make sure
that we all get to live long, happy, prosperous, soft lives,
(43:23):
all of.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Us right, and that we see the humanity in each
individual in our world. That you know, there are some
people who don't seem to warrant a second look, and
everyone does. Everyone has a story that will break your heart.
You know, you just have to sit down and care
enough to hear it, you know, listen, I think you're fantastic. Lena.
(43:44):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Buby, Well, wasn't that amazing? Thank you? I was one
of my favorite pods we've ever done. Stay tuned because
we have some questions for you, the loyal listener, from
you as well, So don't go anywhere. Welcome back here.
(44:21):
We are ready to take a little message left by
one of you, one of you guys. Let's hear it.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Hi, Rosie, my name is Brittany. I'm from Pittsburgh, PA,
and I cannot tell you how much I have been
enjoying your podcast. I was one of the many who
grew up watching you after school, and I'm eternally grateful
for all of the Broadway performances I got to watch
from my bedroom because of you, and it has definitely
(44:49):
spurred my love of Broadway.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
So thank you.
Speaker 5 (44:52):
So my question is about a league of their own.
My husband and I were watching it the other day.
Lah of course, who doesn't love that movie. But when
we got to the end, he said, spoiler alert if
you haven't watched the movie. He said, you know what,
I think Dottie might have dropped the ball on purpose?
And I said, of course she did. Did you not
(45:13):
know that? And he said, no, I've never you know,
in the forty something years I've been watching this movie,
I'd never have thought that.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
And I have always thought that.
Speaker 5 (45:22):
And so now I'm wondering, is there a camp of
people who think she didn't drop it on purpose? I mean,
she did right to help her sister win and feel,
you know, the joy of winning and all that. So
I just had to ask your opinion on that, did
Dottie drop the ball on purpose? Thanks so much, Rosie.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
I love you.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Bite, Oh Brittany, that's the sweetest message I have to
tell you that. When I had my heart attack and
I was going in to get a stint put in,
all of the nurses were like shaving me. They have
to shave you everywhere. And one nurse said, could you
just tell me did Dotti drop that ball on purpose?
And I was like, I has that a lot attack?
I don't know, no, but I believe that too. I
(46:03):
believe Dottie did drop the ball on purpose, right because
she was going back to her life and her husband
was home, and she, you know, decided, she made a choice,
and that choice was to leave the glory to the sister,
and you know, there's something beautiful and touching about that.
But I didn't really ever ask Penny about that, but
(46:26):
I know people have asked me about it a lot
of time. So my vote is yes, that she dropped
the ball on purpose. Thank you, Brittany, thank you for
watching when you were a little girl after school, and
thank you for your wonderful, wonderful question. I think we
got one more today, do we?
Speaker 6 (46:43):
Oh, Rosie, I can't believe you played that, but anyway,
I'm so thrilled too that you got the message and
you felt the love.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
What did I want to say? Oh, it's my name
is Meryl, just so you know.
Speaker 6 (46:59):
And you know, of course course I didn't leave my
name because I forget these things. I'm getting alder. Just
sorry to hear that you're not connecting with your sister.
I have that with my brother, And you know, I
came across a shirt when I was on holiday and
(47:20):
I said, that's my brother, and I bought it and
I sent it and it felt.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Really good to do that.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
Whether they connect or not, it was just I wanted
him to know I thought of him.
Speaker 6 (47:35):
So just a little gesture, I think that's all you
need to do, and then see where it goes. And
you know, it's just some people are limited.
Speaker 4 (47:46):
That's just the way it is, and we have to
just no, it's not us all the time. Don't take
it on like it's your fault. Yeah, everyone's a different
different not frequencies. What am I trying to say, Just
different ways.
Speaker 6 (48:06):
Of emotional intelligence.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
And that's the way it is, as we know.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
All right.
Speaker 6 (48:14):
Anyway, keep going.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
I'm in love with your cook.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
She sounds wonderful.
Speaker 6 (48:19):
You're lucky, all right, have a great whatever, great day.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Great rest of the summer.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
And I'm going to keep listening and I hope this
continues because it's really enjoyable. I sew well, I listen
to you. Okay, bye Rosie, Bye, Meryll.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
You are I don't know where the button is. I
don't know where the button is, Merrill, You're adorable. I
totally could say that we could be friends. Yes, I
have done for many years, you know, since our kind
of separation from each other. I have sent things over
(48:59):
the years, and you know, I don't know. I think
we're very different people. And you know, the bigness of
my life, the you know, insanity, I think, for you know,
someone who likes things a little bit more normal, my
life's a little crazy, you know, I don't know, but
I love her and I miss her very much. And
(49:21):
it's one of the most painful things of you know,
for me and my life and world. It's it's still
painful all these years later, and but I will still try.
I don't know. I do my best. But thank you
very much, Meryll. Thank you for your messages, and I
(49:44):
would love to meet you one day. Know that, hey
next week. Alexander Vidman Alexander Vidman who wrote the amazing
book Here Right Matters, and he was the one who
testified against Don Trump for trying to strong arm Zelenski,
(50:05):
trying to blackmail Zelensky into getting information about Joe Biden,
and Alex Binman was on that call. And Alex Binman
testified and then had his military career, which was spotless
and awarded, taken away from him. I think he is
an American hero and I had a wonderful conversation with him.
(50:28):
So Alexander Vinman next week here on onward,
All right, hey everybody, it's me and you found it again.
This is Onward with Rosie O'Donnell and I of course
am Shaka Khan. I feel for you. I think I
love you. I don't know why I do that all
the time. It really amuses only me. Anyway, we have
a wonderful, wonderful show for you Lena Wait this year,
(00:32):
and she is just amazing and everything she does. We
have a wonderful conversation about growing up and people who
resembled us on TV kind of mask presenting tomboyish girl
boys or boy girls. You know, I don't know. My
daughter would claim that's non binary. They are ten years old.
(00:55):
And they asked me when we were in therapy last
week if I would get the work they tattooed on
my inner wrists so that I would always see it
and always get it right. And I think I'm going
to do that for Dakota. I think that Dakota really
wants me to do it right. And I'm really trying,
(01:18):
and it's tough. I was at Kathy Griffin's wonderful Salon
party honoring the lunch honoring Dylan mulvaney and it's a
wonderful afternoon. She throws a great salon party, and there
are rules, and Kathy's very strict about the rules, but
it all works out in the end and had a
(01:38):
great time. And two of the other women there were
mothers had children who are also They them pronouns, and
we all were talking about how, over sixty, how hard
it is to change the way that you perceive and
the pronouns that you use for your own kid. It's
(01:59):
not done at listen, I understand fully the need to
have your pronouns be correct, and believe me, I'm trying,
but my little ten year old is teaching me so anyway,
Lena and I talk about that about life, about about
just being who you are, and how that is so
(02:21):
valuable in today's society. Authenticity, I think is the only
thing that's worth its weight in gold. So Lena, today,
right now, don't go away. Well, hello, Lena, how are you?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'm so good, Rosie O'Donnell. I'll have to be talked
to you.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
You know, I was really so fascinated by everything I
learned about you while I was preparing for this interview.
Right first of all, that I'm twenty two years older.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Than you, okay, got its.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Sting to me, you know, like I look at you
like the next generation. Like I tried to imagine who
it was that you were looking to in the public
sphere that you thought, well, that's kind of like me.
Was there anyone at that point?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Well, you know, I think the reason why this is
like so full circle is because I watched you every
day at three o'clock in Chicago. I remember one time
when you were interviewing when Whitney finally came back.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
After she missed the show, she was duper Cinderella.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I had to walk. It took me like fifteen minutes
to get home. Bob power walked so school that out
of two forty five, I had to get home. Because
that's the thing. Back, You couldn't t bow.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You can record, no such you had exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
So I was like power walking home to watch her
on the show with you, and it was a great episode,
and you had a funny bit about there being a
security camera outside of her trailer to make sure she
didn't leave, and you were like, I paid the security
guard one hundred bucks to make.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Sure she needs anything exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So you know, so I was watching you and there's
the thing about I think queer folk is that even
if someone doesn't say they're queer, there's a knowing yes,
And so I agree, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Like, it's just.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Really been amazing, I think for me to come up
and to be I never thought I would be on television.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
That's the other thing. Ilways wanted to be a television writer.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Oh it's from the beginning. You didn't want to perform.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
From the beginning, I want your right half power comedy
and I never dreamed about winning an Emmy for that.
That wasn't the goal. I just wanted to be good,
and so I think I didn't realize and watching you,
you know, even though definitely Whoopy as a blueprint, even
though she's not queer, she's a person who the queer
community definitely feels is like someone who's.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Totally she's she's queer adjacent. If anything, she's totally in
the mix of LBGTQYA.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
You know, absolutely, she's like such a you know, a
wonderful ally but you know, like I would see a
queen Latifa, you know, and said that yes, and yes
I would see you know Ellen as well on TV.
And Ellen reached out, you know, after seeing a master
of note, which I was grateful for.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
It's just like there are.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
People that I would look at and I would see
I remember Tasha on The L Word, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It took just a while to get a black girl
up there.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
But yes, that's why I was such a full circle
moment for me to come back and be on the
return of The L Word and to look at Shane
and like us to have a cool scene and.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Same with me. Yeah, yes, right, I had the same
thing with The L Word that when it was first out.
I remember I was a little nervous about who's going
to know? And did people know? You know, you had
to almost watch it in secret, you know, like.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I watched it in secret for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, And to be on it then was really a
full circle moment for me to go in there and go, God,
how far I have come in my own self acceptance
and perhaps cultural acceptance of queerness in a manner that
was not evident when I was a kid growing. I mean,
I didn't have any kind of gay lesbian icon marker
(06:01):
for me, you know, being that I'm twenty two years
older than you. I was trying to think as I
was reading about you, who it was. And I think
the first really mask presenting lesbian that was a superstar
was Katie.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Oh Wow, Katy Lang. And there's also Tracy Chatman.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Tracy, Yes, for sure, for sure, she came on my show.
I was so overwhelmed by her smile and her physical
beauty that I like, she's so shy and so freaking adorable,
like I guess, and such an artist that I was
completely flirting with her, even though I didn't at the time.
If you would have said, were you flirting with Tracy,
(06:41):
I would have been like, no, not me, of course not,
but yes, I definitely was.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I mean obviously like I was Walker being a you know,
obviously on the color.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Purple course, So there's definitely some touch points.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
But I think for me growing up and me being
a product of all that, I think by the time
I appeared on Master of None and ASA had met me,
I was so comfortable in my own skin because I
was also living in Los Angeles, yes, and I was
coming into my own and I just was very comfortable
in my skin. And I remember thinking, if I ever
(07:12):
did become a public person, I would not have to
come out to the public, because I would be out period, right,
And I didn't think about.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
The significance of that.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I don't know how. I want some historians who may
know better than I. But I did not come out
publicly because I was just out. I was a lesbian
on the show. I was a lesbian in real life,
and I think that was new for people. They were like, oh,
so you're just going to be gay and open about it,
and I was like.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, totally, and thank god, thank god all the people
who came before you and encouraged you to live in
your truth. Yes, in the twenty two years of difference
between us, so much had changed.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Absolutely, but you're very much a part of that for me.
So that's why I think it's such a full circle moment.
I remember, I think we met for the first time
at the Netflix special when we were backstage and I
was there introduced Wanda Sykes. Was also a really wonderful moment.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
You were kind enough to let me hang in your
green room, which was a really big moment for me.
I didn't want to geek out and make it weird,
but I was just like, this is insane, like what
so like? And then also, I love you, know Mary
Tyler Moore. And I'm so glad you watched the documentary.
It's just there's so many touch points. So I'm just
really honored to be talking to you. You know, it
took me, took me a beat to get here.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
But well, thank you, Lenna. It's very mutual. I have
to say, I look at you, I look at the
work you've done. I look at the movies you're a
part of. I anticipated in the Mary Charla Moore one
and and I loved the finished product. I loved it.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
And I was so thrilled to see that you had
that much interest in Mary Tyler Moore. I mean, I
I don't know why. I just didn't think to myself, wow,
Lena Waite and Mary Chyla Moore, that that's that's a match.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, you're like that. It wasn't on my Bigo card.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
But how how did she influence you? How did she
influence you?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Well, I'm very grateful that because I'm a student of television,
and specifically half hour television, because that's what I love.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Even though I write.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
You know, people know my drama, they know the Shy
as well, but you know, writing twenties and getting a
chance to work on Master of None. Half hour is
really my sweet spot. So I got to study the greats,
you know. So I watched All in the Family because
my grandmother watching Old tval On the Family, Jefferson's Good Times.
I was a young kid watching those shows. But then
also I want to watch shows that were current to me.
(09:21):
So I wanted to watch a different world, Martin Living Single,
all that kind of stuff. But it was a great
education to see to see my shows that are half
hours that were working and I enjoyed, but then also
to be educated by the Dick Van Dyke Show and
Mary Tyler Moore show.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Also loved Maud. Also big fan of Rota, really loved
Vali Harper makes she rest in Pees.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yes, we have the same exact loves of half hours.
I was to me the goal of life was to
be in a sitcom.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah, you were all give me a break. Then you
do give me a break, that's right. So which I
love Nel Carter.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And at the time when when Nell was very unwell
and very unhappy to be there, and it was my
first thing in showbiz, so like I walked on so
new and excited to be on the lot to do
this is what I always wanted to do, and she
was such in a bad place, you know. And it's
interesting because I had seen her and kind of geeked
out from ain't misbehavior. Wow, you know, I had seen
(10:15):
her on Broadway and was blown away by her, and
so it was so crushing in some ways that you know,
it was the last season, she was not in a
good place in her private life, and it just it
crushed me a little bit, just at the start of
my career.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
No, I get that, and I think there's something about
that story, because we do. There's something about show business,
right that draws us to it. Yeah, and that's its job,
is to razzle dazzle us. And then we get in
there and it's like going you know, backstage at the
you know, at the amusement park, you know what I mean.
You go back there and you see, you know, Mickey
(10:53):
ain't got his hat on, you know, and so it's like, yeah,
this is not what I thought.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
And I think that's the weird thing.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
But people that don't work in the business and don't
see how the sausage is made.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
For them, it's just a beautiful entree.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And for us, it's like you had no idea what
it took to put that on the plate exactly right,
and thinking about Neil Carter as the icon that she is,
it's like, you know, to me, she's you know, a
woman that you know, probably was it also felt like
an unsung hero and probably didn't get some opportunities that
she would have wanted, didn't get to play you know,
the sollly romantic interest, still trying to step out of
certain stereotypes that people would put you know, women that
(11:28):
looked like her in.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yes, totally true.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
But I think that's really how I came to understand
about the importance of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. And
I will say this initially because when I was watching comedy,
it was very fast, you know, Will and Grace and
all that kind of stuff where it's like, yeah, they're
putting like five jokes in a minute, and Marry Tyler Mooreshaw.
One of its most iconic episodes is Chuckles Bice the dust.
(11:50):
You have to wait until the end of the episode
to get the biggest leave. And so what I was
learning about from that the writers was just about pacing
patience character and how you never sell a character down
the river for a joke, and how to make something
timeless and so and that was what fascinated me first.
And then of course I'm a human, as Oaac was
Rahi would say, so of course I'm looking at Mary
(12:11):
telling Moore and I'm just as enthralled by her and like,
who was this person?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Right?
Speaker 3 (12:14):
And then I read her memoir after all when I
was like like end of like high school, and just
because I was fascinated, and her memoir really blew me away,
learning about her alcoholic yes, learning about the loss she
had in her life, and learning about how she could
not have been more opposite from the character she was
playing when she was playing them, you know, and particularly
Mary Richards where she was a married woman that entire time,
(12:38):
and Grant Tinker was, you know, creating this machine that
was MTM, you know, productions that would pump out Saint elsewhere,
and obviously all the spin offs of Mary Tyler Moore
Show as well as Mary Tyler Moore Show itself, and
so it was just very fascinating. And then until she
later in her life when she divorced Grant Tinker and
obviously married her amazing widower, doctor Robert Levine before but
(13:00):
also I love that window post Grant Tinker, Robert Levine.
She actually gets to live like Mary Richards in her
forties in New York City, being single, you know, having
that experience and so and I think that's when she
blossomed the most because she kind of got a chance
to be that independent woman she played so well on television.
So that that's also what the fascination is is about.
(13:21):
I'm really into persona versus the person, and I think you.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Know a whole lot about that.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I certainly do.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Like you know, when you're on every Day, there was
a persona about Romeo Donald.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
It was like, oh, this she is.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And every time with women, it's like they want us
to be their mother. They want us to be kind,
they want us to smile, they want us to coddle them.
So it's like, why is that expected of us as women?
And then when you're queer woman and you have maybe
more masculine energy, you're not deemed to be ladylike, which
means you're not likabule. And there's this desire for women
(13:54):
to be liked that men don't have to deal with totally.
And I think it's something as society we have to
reckon with. And that's all with the center of the
documentary of being Mary telling Moore. So that's a very
long winded answer, but.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
No, but it's so fascinating to me. You know, I
used to watch it all the time. And then when
I was a stand up, a young stand up, it
was on three times in the middle of the night.
It was on after Linda Ellerby from like one o'clock
to three thirty or something, And so I would come
home from waiting to get on stage at Catch or
the Improv, and I'd come to my little apartment in
(14:27):
Queen's and I'd write all of the question trivia questions
in a notebook that I had kept since I was little.
When it was on once a week, and I had
written all these questions, like what's the number of Mary's
apartment when it's the number of roters apartment, like, you know,
really interesting detailed facts. And when I first met her,
she came on the show and she was in her
(14:48):
dressing room and I knocked and came in and she said, oh,
I'm so happy that you're saying hello. On David Letterman.
They don't say hello, they just throw you out there.
I'm like, not only am I going to say hello?
I'm going to show you my trivia book from nineteen
seventy five with two thousand Mary Tarla Moore questions in it.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Was she like mind blown?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
It blew her mind. It changed the way that we
were able to relate to each other because she really
knew that I was a for real legit fan, sort
of like my thing was Streisand you know that she
could have been so annoyed by the You know, in
some ways I could see, as an entertainer of that
(15:31):
legendary status that here comes this new kid, and all
she wants to do is meet you. And then when
she meets me. She even wrote me a letter and said,
you know, when you meet me, the illusion is over.
And I said, not for me, not for me, And
it hasn't. It hasn't changed anything. And it just made
like my knowledge of the truth of manifesting yes, really
(15:56):
come to the forefront. Because I would go to sleep
at night and I would I wonder where she is.
I wonder if she's at dinner in La, I wonder
Whitney Easton. Yes, did you ever get to meet her?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
No? I did not.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
I did not, but I am grateful I got to
see her in concert. I got to see her in concert,
so I'm very grateful for that. My mother made sure
that happened. She came for her My Love as Your
Love tour. She started it in Chicago. Wow, for no reason.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
At although, of course I believe the reason is because
I was there.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
But but but but I remember she was on Oprah.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
You know how everybody had to go through you know,
you gotta go through.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
The Oprah exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Ring of course she was, and she had.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Been on She'd done Oprah many times, but she was
there on Oprah to talk about like I'm here, I'm
gonna be performing, you know, and and Oprah asked her
why Chicago? Why are you starting this in Chicago? And
I remember, of course I'm watching, like with baited breath,
like yeah, why she was like, it's just the first
stop of the tour.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
She left, there's no significance, No, I Love Whitney was.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Like, I'm not going to give you some The tour
manager said we're starting in Chicago exactly. So of course
for me and my family, you know, it was a
big deal. And they were like, oh, well, Lena has
to be in the building and I'll never forget it,
you know, to watch her and it was the first stop.
So she was very like happy to be out there.
She was like she was like, okay, we're back at it,
(17:17):
back on the road again. So I know that's why
I think I related to you so much. And I
love Streisand are you kidding? Like I know, you know
I'm not as like you know ray Man, but I
know I'm a The reason why I love Streisan is
because streisand you know, she tapped Whitney.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
You know, she said like she's she's got something.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
And I remember there's footage because I know I've seen
a lot of fusion Whitning uston of her on Entertainment
tonight and Barbara Streisan has was having something at her
home or something and she was doing something and Whitney
was invited and she was out there like being interviewed
and it was like, look, I'm grateful to be here.
And it was very much like Whitney was like, Barbara
has invited me, and I'm grateful.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I am thankful for that exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Listen to her for sure, and so I think for me,
it's like we're part of a sorority almost.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
You know. It's like those singers are really important.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
But yeah, that's the thing I think I had to
wrap my brain around. I know you got to wrap
your brain around it too. Like we're people that have
obsessed over other people in the public eye totally, and
then now to meet people that see us in that way,
it's a very interesting thing. And I think that's why
I was able to do I've done, you know, I've
been a part of a documentary about Dick Gregory, to
(18:27):
be a part of obviously Mary tellingmore, a document about
this gentleman named.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Ellis Haslib who had a show called Soul.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
He was a queer black man and he had I
got a chance to help get that on HBO Max.
And so I think I'm very fascinated by people who
have impact on a lot of people, right and what
that means. And I think I'm a big believer and
that we're all connected. And so when I would see
you talking about TV shows and your love for this
and that, I saw myself. I was like, and I
(18:56):
saw myself in more ways than one, not just at
our random you know. And so and I just thought, huh,
what your presence on television did was in some way
because I did not want necessarily to be on TV,
but it said there's a place for me in this world.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Wow, it's so beautiful, Lena.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, and I know you. For you, it's like a job.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
You're going every day, the different desks, ibody, doing that
whole thing. It's like, it's just it's it's people sometimes
don't know the significance of just their presence. Yes, And
I now have an understanding of it. And I think
it's why when people meet us, I know, you feel
that pressure. It's like we want them to walk away
feeling good, Yes, because we don't want them to feel like, oh,
(19:36):
this person who I wondered what she was doing every
night before I went to sleep, you know, made me
feel And I don't know if people out there understand
the weight that comes with that.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
It's a big, big burden in many ways. And you know,
people say, why did you leave your show at the
height of its success. Why I couldn't take it anymore.
I couldn't take the lack of humanity that happened. Like
I needed to get off the airplane. Wow, get a
parachute and get back down to Earth, hang out with
(20:07):
my family for a few years, not do anything. Paint,
absorb art that ingest art that I that I love
and it took that long, like four or five years
for me to get back into just being me.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, I get it, and you know,
and I ain't got to bring this up, but I
remember when you came back to.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
TV, you know, and it was a big deal. Yeah,
it was a big.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Deal and you were no longer sitting at a desk
by yourself, but it was such a big thing to.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Have you back in our living rooms again.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, but I think what happened was what happened again
humanity had disappointed you, Yes, and you were like, I
can't be in front of y'all smile and acting like
everything's okay, and.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I can't ignore what's happening in the world because where
women and the man who was running the show thought
that women should talk about things that women don't talk about.
So I would say, in the middle of where it wore,
can we not discuss, you know, or the Bill Cosby thing. No,
we can't discuss the Bill Cosby thing. We can't. There
were so many landmines of what you couldn't couldn't say
(21:12):
that for me, it was the non fit, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
But it's so interesting because who do we talk about
today in turns of influences with the goverg who follows you,
you know what I'm saying, who had to get suspended
for two weeks. It's just like you know, and look,
I've gotten my licks as well because I've understand. I
had to understand that I'm an artist that does not coddle.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I confront correct, you can't.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
But I'm a woman, even though I'm like, They're like,
but you're a woman, even though your mask, you're a lesbian,
You're a woman. You're supposed to give us a happy ending, right,
supposed to survive. Yes, but this is in the history
of Rome and Juliet, Bonnie and Clyde. But being born
black and woman and queer, I am born to be defiant.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Correct, That was in our DNA is there right? When
you are other in a society and you know for
you right away to be born into black skin and
to have that be the world through which you are experiencing,
it's an It's a completely different thing. And the same
(22:17):
way that queerness is not equal and you know, but
but the difference to feel other, to feel other in
our society. We'll be right back with Lena after this.
(22:49):
Do you think that for Whitney that the whole gay
thing was part of her demise? Do you think if
she had been able to say, I'm with Robin, that's it,
leave me alone and then get out there and sing
like you know, do you think that that played a
big part in her early ending?
Speaker 3 (23:08):
You know, it's so fascinating because I I've thought about obviously,
you know, thought about her and her passing a lot,
and I ruminated.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
On a ton.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
What I believe is that in order to be an icon,
there are things you have to leave behind, true, and
I think there are pieces of yourself that you don't
get to have. And I think the biggest choice that
she had to make is do I be an icon
(23:39):
or do I be myself?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And I don't think she could have been both at
that time.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
At that time in society, I agree.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
At that time, and so I think that she chose
in a way, she almost sacrificed herself yes for others. Yes,
because her presence in the world impacted and continues to
impact so many people, regardless of her sexual orientation. Because
she never said it, I don't necessarily adopt it, even
(24:10):
though I do.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I mean I read Robin's book.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
I trust everything, you know, right, he said, And so
I just believe that she was a person that had to.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Be so many things to so many people.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
So many things to so many people.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Yeah, and I think that is what you're talking is
that burden. It's that weight that everybody can't it's hard
to carry it. And I think it shows up in
a lot of different ways. And I think what it was.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
We look out.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
It's so interesting because I'm looking at you know, say
a little nas X, or I'm looking at right, you know,
you know Billy Porter, Yes, exactly. Even though Billy Porter
has been around.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yes he has. We did our first bird Way show together,
me and him.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Oh my gosh, I love Billy. I'm doing a ball
with Billy.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
He is fantastic, really a unique individual and always has been.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Oh my gosh, she's amazing. Actually, I a picture of
me Billy, Lil naz X Cynthia Rivo at the Grammys
Wow a year ago.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So there was as good.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Little Naz came over to say hello, and Billy was
over there and we were like, we gotta capture.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Gotta get a picture of this, Gotta get a picture
of this.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
It's the gayest, blackest photo that ever exists.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
To and good for you, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
But what I look at and even I'm sure little
Naz is looking at people coming up behind him, what
happens is with time, progress.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Is inevitable, yes, And so I love that And.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Even talking to Wanda, you know, at the special were
I think Wanda looks at me and it's just like
what you know, I get to chat with Queen Latifa
and it's a really I love that everybody can see
that I am a beneficiary. I'm a descendant, yes of
you all, and what I'm seeing are descendants of mind.
And so it's like and then now there's like gonna
(25:50):
be kids, there's this new way. I mean, I became
well known from my coming out store you know, we
all on mass from Nohe I didn't come out to
the public coming out on Master of None the Things
Given episode, which a lot of people love and tell
me that I watched that with my parents and it
helped me.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
But now as kids saying like why we gotta come out?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Exactly, man, the kids are gonna be alright. And if
the kids are all right, then we're gonna be okay.
And I think that's what I look at is like
we're waiting for you know, all these folks now that
are in these leadership positions or in these roles, they're
they're not going to be here in ten years.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
No, no, and maybe even less. It's these kids are smart,
they're up standing up for themselves. They're walking out of
school as they're being killed in their classrooms. They're inspiring.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yes, they're drinking less, they're And also I was just
talking to someone today about, you know, the stories I'm
telling now, as you know, we write characters, so you
just did you know I'm friends the Abby Jacobson.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
He did leag of their own.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah, like the stories we're telling now, which is also
such a beautiful thing as like obviously we all obsessed
with Leaga their own and come on hello, but in
the series has its own cult following now as well,
and how obviously this the sort of the kids that
watch The Leader.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yes, can we take it?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Can we take it?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
In?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Gay it up for real? Like it really is. Because
when we were doing the show, Lena, the older women
from the League came on and you know there's like
a woman big like me, Like she's Irish and She's
kind of gruff and she's like, this is my roommate, Patricia, Like,
your roommate? Are we still going by roommate? Are you
in your nineties? How old are you?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
But that was the confines which were placed around them,
and to think, as a grown woman you can live
as a lesbian free in society and be successful and
have people care about you and love you and not
hold it against you.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
No.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I mean I think it's important and I think it's
good for you to say, like, look, this is who
I am, and if you're going to be in business
with me, this is a part of who I am.
And it makes me think about you know, when I
was going through the cast and process a Master of
None with disease, he had an idea of who Denise
was supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
It's so much like the Mary Teller Moore show.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Like for the people like you and I, we know
that Ted Knight, Yes, who would go to play Ted Baxter?
That character originally was supposed to be a handsome guy
who could potentially be a love interest for Mary. Right,
But when Ted Knight walked in, they're like, oh, this
is actually funnier, like.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Much better, you know, a clown, you know what I mean,
walked cronkite, not very bright.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
And so for Denise, she was supposed to be obviously
the girl of the crew that ultimately was supposed to
be a love interest for death eventually for his ease.
And so that's where their heads were, you know. And
I think, by the way, that makes so much sense,
Like he's hanging out with this girl, she's on me.
Did they fall in love?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
So he meets me and I'm open about being queer,
being myself, and they decide, they're like, you know what,
I'll never forget. He was like, we're thinking about just.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Having Denise be like you and be a lesbian and
like rewrite it. And I was like, okayet, that's much
easier for me to play. And we laughed off and
had no idea of how me showing up and being
myself and them embracing who I was and who I
am and saying, you know what, let's just well forget
that version of Denise and make her queer and make
(29:01):
her you know, and go from there.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And I think that's what the rest was history.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
So I think as being ourself, showing up as ourselves,
it's never going to be bad.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
No, even though it might be scary at first, you know,
scarier you know, forty years ago than it was twenty
years ago than it's going to be next month, you know,
And that's the important part. I mean, I love that
you won the Emmy for that. I loved seeing you
get it on the stage. I was so like proud
again that association. You know, you see another queer woman
(29:33):
in show business doing well and being successful, and all
you want to do is root for them.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I appreciate that, and that's why I know we got
to connect. We were on live during the pandemic. But
I think, and just to add to that, because I
was very blessed just to get the commisment speech at
Barnard College and it was my first ever commitsment speech.
And you know, hearing you speak about that, like when
I did whin the Emmys, it's a big deal.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
You know, it's you're on a major stage.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
A black woman had not been nominated in that case
category and just sitting writing in a comedy series, right,
you know, Wanda had won for Variety Comedy, which is
a different category. Mindy Kaling was the only other woman
of color to be nominated in that category for an
episode of the Office. So and then, of course, who
was the amazing, iconic, phenomenal who came after as Quinta Brunson,
(30:18):
who's now the second black woman to ever win in
that category.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
So now there too, We'll keep we'll keep running.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
But I couldn't think of a more amazing woman to
share that honor with, though Quinca's phenomenal. But I think,
you know, for me, when that moment happens, like you said,
I was sort of put on a pedestal and I
was the first black and to person to do something.
And what that does is it puts me in a
place where I'm breathing rare air, but I'm also finding
(30:47):
it hard to breathe. Yes, you know, because it's just impossible.
I can't, you know, I want to do well in
my life. But I think what happens is when you
represent a group of people that are othered in many
different ways, as a black person, as a queer black woman,
as a mass presenting lesbian, which is its own category. Yes,
you then become a representative unwillingly, but you are, you know,
(31:11):
become representative for the whole group of people. And when
you falter. When you stumble, when you fall is heard
and felt in ways that isn't like everybody else. And
I think that's something that I really had to grapple
with and really learn to embrace and not become bitter
or frustrated or say I'm nobody's hero, or rather remind
(31:35):
people that I'm a human.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yes, that you are a human. But you will always
be the first black woman to win that Emmy in writing.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
You will always be a touchstone for those coming up
after you, And I think there's honor in that, and
absolutely that each each achievement needs to live on its
own and not sort of be you know, how does
this compare to who she is as a person? Why
didn't she do this? And we have a charity and
she didn't show up, and all of a sudden, You're like,
(32:05):
within your own group, I'm getting this, you know, within
my own people. Imagine what's happening in.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
The world, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
And so saying all you want to do is be
a beacon for your community, Yes, that's it. But I
think I think I'm sure you understand this and know
this is that sometimes you know, a beacon has to
just exist and and and float off into ce you
know at times, and and still provide a light. But
you know, I think that's when we start to lose ourselves.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
You know. I always say that I'm really.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Blessed, you know, to I honor this gift and uh,
and this gift has fed me really beautifully.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But I don't want the gift to eat me.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yes, and it can and it will. We've seen it.
We've seen it do it to so many people that
you know, we look up to and love and and
to protect your essence and to protect you know, some
people say to me, you're just the same when I
meet you in real life than you are when I
see you what I like. So that's my goal, is
(33:06):
to merge all of this into one.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
And I also think that's why you're who you are,
you know, is I think I don't think people realize
it is not easy to be yourself in front.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Of millions of people, right.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
It is not an easy thing to do, and that's
why so many people create personas you know, And I
think that's why. Not to bring back to Mary tellingmore,
but I think I was so fascinated by this person
that she had to be you know, and there's so
many interviews of her in that first interview in the
documentary which we found, which I had never seen.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I had never seen it either.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I've never seen it, and it's a funnot I would say,
even if you don't care about Mary Tyllermore, if you
don't care about the Mary Tyllermore show, I ask you
to just watch the opening of Mary Tellingmore meeting Mary
Telling Moore, just to see what she was dealing with
at that time and the way she walked that tightrope
without ever making him feel like, you know, because I
(34:03):
think that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
I think what I learned from.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Mary is that she knew how to be a politician
without making you feel like she was a politician, right,
And I think the thing about you was like you're like,
I'm going to beat myself all of that, And I
think what's what I learned from you is like, it's
okay if everybody don't.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Like that self, Yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Because even sometimes I go like, I'll hear you know,
you always giving your opinions about things. Sometimes I like,
I'm like, I don't know if I agree with that one. Rose,
I don't know, I say pace about that, But that's
like there's a level, there's a level of respect. It's like,
you know what, you've been living longer than me, you know,
more than I do. I think we have a difference
of opinion maybe because of you know, what our experiences are.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
But I'm not going to argue with you people. You
know what I'm saying. It's like, there's no need to
do that.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
And so I think what I learned from you is like,
if you're going to have an opinion stated, to make
it plain, but understand that those that disagree are.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Going to come.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
And I think maybe what I may have learned, I'll
be honest roll is that like, maybe there's a part
of me that's like every opinion I have I may
not have to.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Share right publicly.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
You don't have to.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
But I also think it's okay that people don't. Don't
They don't have to hear all of our other private conversations.
Correct As you know, there's a time in Hollywood where
we didn't know what everybody thought. You know, we didn't
hear everybody's opinions on everything.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, sometimes you would. You know, there's great footage of.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Sidney Potier and Harry Belafonte may God rest their souls.
Having real conversations with Baldwin and like world leaders and
it's amazing and they're you know, and also you know,
Lorraine Hansbury would be very involving a writer who was
very politically involved and invested.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So I think that's absolutely absolute space for that.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
But I also think there's time to have conversations where
we're figuring things out.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Without a doubt. And you have to know when you
make a stand publicly. When when I feel cold to
make a stand, like I don't do it, like watch me,
I go like, okay, you have to say something. You
have to say something. Yeah, there are so few women
with a microphone that if it gets, you know, any
play that the point of view that I firmly believe in,
(36:04):
you know, like like especially with the Trump thing, people
in career wise were saying, you can't do that, you
can't just like when I wanted what I did talk
about Woody Allen and my first HBO special e, my
agents were like, you can't do that, it's going to
ruin your career. I'm like, I don't care. Do you
understand I'm not afraid of Woody Allen. I will never
(36:25):
be afraid of Woody Allen and I'm going to tell
the truth of what I feel he is about. And
if you don't believe it or listen to me, you know,
She's like, but you could not get a gig. You
want to hear the weirdest thing, Lena or was that
I get on my talk show and we get a
call from his casting agent. Do I want to roll
in the sweet low down with Sean Penn? I said,
(36:49):
you can tell him. I said, fuck and no two
words for Woody Allen those are my only two words
fan fuck. And now I did not know what isn't
that That's something how he felt that he could get
anyone who didn't approve with him by just getting them
into his artistic I was like, I was so appalled
(37:10):
by that. I thought it was such an unbelievable representation
of the shitty part of Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
You know, wow, you know, but I think to me, like,
that is your brand, you know, it's it's I actually
think it's odd if you aren't you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
There's something that happened.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
You don't have something's going on right, something's weird.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that comes with again that's
your magic.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
That's what people want, that's what people expect.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
And I think that's the other thing too, where I
think you've taken a stand where it's like, look, this
is who I am.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
You need to take it to leave it.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
And I think that is a really, really beautiful space
to be and I think I definitely have done that.
And I try to more so say how do I
put this in the work, you know? And and how
do I put you know, different conversations in the work,
because I believe that everybody in the world thinks that
are right right, everybody thinks they're right correct, and so
(38:05):
you know, I don't want to spend my time trying
to convince someone that maybe they aren't right, because.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I don't know if they're right or not.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
So what I try to do in the work where
it be the Shy and even in Queen and Slim
the conversations that they're having is like, you know, these
are two views, and I want the audience to look
at both and consider them both and to make their
own decision.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Because I think what I as a as a as a.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Telling stories, telling narrative stories, I don't want people to
feel like I'm telling them, what's a thing?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Correct? But it's so that movie Queen and Slim is
so beautiful. It's so beautiful they shot the relationship is unbelievable.
It was gorgeous. It was a gorgeous piece of film.
And I remember when I saw it, I thought, wow,
look at that. Good for her Man, it was you know,
it was epic. Really, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I got some licks. People were definitely not always happy
about the ending. I don't spoiler alert, which I understand
and you know, and I think at the time it
was tough. But it's interesting because I don't know people
realized this. This was before George, you know, Floyd and
Breonna Taylor, and obviously there was still deaths that we
were reeling from, but obviously those had become world news
(39:16):
and we're really catching headlines, and rightfully so, so that
there could be some change and we could all come together.
But I could not have foreseen that. But I saw
people going back and revisiting the film, and because to me,
what was interesting about that time and why I wanted
to tell that story was that I was seeing murals
go up. I was seeing names of people not because
(39:41):
of their accomplishments or what they had done or how
they lived, but because they had been killed by police officers.
That's why I was starting to know people's names, certain
black people's names. And what I wanted to do was say,
you know, we don't let people be forgotten. We wear
t shirts, we put up murals, and we say their names.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
And so I think what people have seen now with
time and looking back at the movie is that no
one ever really dies as long as we keep their
names on our tongues.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
And also I was thinking about I was like, are
there any murals of people who are still alive?
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Interesting? Not really, not really.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
We've done those and have gone. And so I knew
how I wanted to end that film. And I think,
you know, hopefully people really get my intent, which is
they are not dead, they are immortal.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Correct. That's beautiful. It came through I think as a piece.
I love the ending. I thought it was profound and
I thought it was you know, riveting, and it grabbed
everyone and it really brought home the whole meaning of
the movie. How else could it have ended? I don't know.
But I also want to talk Can I talk to
you about your other documentary that I just saw about
(40:58):
the transsex workers. Yeah. Absolutely, I watched the whole thing
Cocomo City. I was very fascinated. I think this is,
you know, a part of our culture that people don't
want to talk about or look at. And thanks to
Pose and all of those wonderful actors on that show,
the stories have become a little more part of the
(41:19):
public consciousness. But that film really spoke to what it
was like for those sex workers and how to form
a life out of that life.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Thank you so much, and thank you for mentioning that.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I want to give a shout out to de Smith
who was the director of that amazing documentary. It's called
Cocomo City. People can rent it on wherever they rent movies.
It's digitally available. You can watch it in your living room.
It's it's a really cool film to watch around people.
But I also think it's an important movie to kind
of sit and really take in and watch, maybe by
yourself or with a few other people that you love.
(41:54):
I Rishi Rijani, who's my CEO of Hilm and grad
a Ventures, he saw that film because he was going
to be doing a panel hosting a panel at Sundance
which De Smiss would be on obviously he wanted to
do his research and he saw the movie. He does
a thing that you know you're not supposed to do,
but he slipped it to me and said, Lena, I
think you should watch this and tell me if you
think there's anything we should do.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
So I was, you know, in London.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
I watched it on my computer and was blown away
and riveted and at that moment, like you said, I
think I should say something for me, I was like,
I think.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
We should be helpful. I think we should be a
part of this.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
And so that's sort of how I can use my
voice at all, is to speak someone else's name and
to make sure people pay attention to this film. And
the film now lives as a tribute in terms of
talking about us and and black folks losing people before
their time unjustly and and is Coco, the doll who
was featured in the in the film, who is now
(42:52):
the film is now really a tribute to her. I
got to meet her at Sundance and she unfortunately did
not live to see the movie come out.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
And that, unfortunately is a part of you.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Know, the reality of sex work.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yeah, this reality and definitely not something we foresaw in
joining this journey. But it's something that everybody needs to
understand and to grapple with and to sit with, and
to make sure that there's change and to make sure
that we all get to live long, happy, prosperous, soft lives,
(43:23):
all of.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Us right, and that we see the humanity in each
individual in our world. That you know, there are some
people who don't seem to warrant a second look, and
everyone does. Everyone has a story that will break your heart.
You know, you just have to sit down and care
enough to hear it, you know, listen, I think you're fantastic. Lena.
(43:44):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Buby, Well, wasn't that amazing? Thank you? I was one
of my favorite pods we've ever done. Stay tuned because
we have some questions for you, the loyal listener, from
you as well, So don't go anywhere. Welcome back here.
(44:21):
We are ready to take a little message left by
one of you, one of you guys. Let's hear it.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Hi, Rosie, my name is Brittany. I'm from Pittsburgh, PA,
and I cannot tell you how much I have been
enjoying your podcast. I was one of the many who
grew up watching you after school, and I'm eternally grateful
for all of the Broadway performances I got to watch
from my bedroom because of you, and it has definitely
(44:49):
spurred my love of Broadway.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
So thank you.
Speaker 5 (44:52):
So my question is about a league of their own.
My husband and I were watching it the other day.
Lah of course, who doesn't love that movie. But when
we got to the end, he said, spoiler alert if
you haven't watched the movie. He said, you know what,
I think Dottie might have dropped the ball on purpose?
And I said, of course she did. Did you not
(45:13):
know that? And he said, no, I've never you know,
in the forty something years I've been watching this movie,
I'd never have thought that.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
And I have always thought that.
Speaker 5 (45:22):
And so now I'm wondering, is there a camp of
people who think she didn't drop it on purpose? I mean,
she did right to help her sister win and feel,
you know, the joy of winning and all that. So
I just had to ask your opinion on that, did
Dottie drop the ball on purpose? Thanks so much, Rosie.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
I love you.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Bite, Oh Brittany, that's the sweetest message I have to
tell you that. When I had my heart attack and
I was going in to get a stint put in,
all of the nurses were like shaving me. They have
to shave you everywhere. And one nurse said, could you
just tell me did Dotti drop that ball on purpose?
And I was like, I has that a lot attack?
I don't know, no, but I believe that too. I
(46:03):
believe Dottie did drop the ball on purpose, right because
she was going back to her life and her husband
was home, and she, you know, decided, she made a choice,
and that choice was to leave the glory to the sister,
and you know, there's something beautiful and touching about that.
But I didn't really ever ask Penny about that, but
(46:26):
I know people have asked me about it a lot
of time. So my vote is yes, that she dropped
the ball on purpose. Thank you, Brittany, thank you for
watching when you were a little girl after school, and
thank you for your wonderful, wonderful question. I think we
got one more today, do we?
Speaker 6 (46:43):
Oh, Rosie, I can't believe you played that, but anyway,
I'm so thrilled too that you got the message and
you felt the love.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
What did I want to say? Oh, it's my name
is Meryl, just so you know.
Speaker 6 (46:59):
And you know, of course course I didn't leave my
name because I forget these things. I'm getting alder. Just
sorry to hear that you're not connecting with your sister.
I have that with my brother, And you know, I
came across a shirt when I was on holiday and
(47:20):
I said, that's my brother, and I bought it and
I sent it and it felt.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Really good to do that.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
Whether they connect or not, it was just I wanted
him to know I thought of him.
Speaker 6 (47:35):
So just a little gesture, I think that's all you
need to do, and then see where it goes. And
you know, it's just some people are limited.
Speaker 4 (47:46):
That's just the way it is, and we have to
just no, it's not us all the time. Don't take
it on like it's your fault. Yeah, everyone's a different
different not frequencies. What am I trying to say, Just
different ways.
Speaker 6 (48:06):
Of emotional intelligence.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
And that's the way it is, as we know.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
All right.
Speaker 6 (48:14):
Anyway, keep going.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
I'm in love with your cook.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
She sounds wonderful.
Speaker 6 (48:19):
You're lucky, all right, have a great whatever, great day.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Great rest of the summer.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
And I'm going to keep listening and I hope this
continues because it's really enjoyable. I sew well, I listen
to you. Okay, bye Rosie, Bye, Meryll.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
You are I don't know where the button is. I
don't know where the button is, Merrill, You're adorable. I
totally could say that we could be friends. Yes, I
have done for many years, you know, since our kind
of separation from each other. I have sent things over
(48:59):
the years, and you know, I don't know. I think
we're very different people. And you know, the bigness of
my life, the you know, insanity, I think, for you know,
someone who likes things a little bit more normal, my
life's a little crazy, you know, I don't know, but
I love her and I miss her very much. And
(49:21):
it's one of the most painful things of you know,
for me and my life and world. It's it's still
painful all these years later, and but I will still try.
I don't know. I do my best. But thank you
very much, Meryll. Thank you for your messages, and I
(49:44):
would love to meet you one day. Know that, hey
next week. Alexander Vidman Alexander Vidman who wrote the amazing
book Here Right Matters, and he was the one who
testified against Don Trump for trying to strong arm Zelenski,
(50:05):
trying to blackmail Zelensky into getting information about Joe Biden,
and Alex Binman was on that call. And Alex Binman
testified and then had his military career, which was spotless
and awarded, taken away from him. I think he is
an American hero and I had a wonderful conversation with him.
(50:28):
So Alexander Vinman next week here on onward,
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