March 28, 2023 • 49 mins
Prolific documentary filmmaker and friend, Rory Kennedy, visits Rosie this week to talk about making her latest feature, "The Volcano: Rescue from Whakaari." The film, one of Rosie's favorite new docs, is a visceral account of the volcanic explosion that happened off the coast of New Zealand back in 2019. Rory explains how she was able to spotlight the humanity of the people who faced this tragedy, and capture their fight for survival.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Okay, everybody, it's me Rosie O'Donnell. We are back for
episode two and I just want to thank you so much.
The outpouring of support, the amount of people who tuned in,
the people who commented, all just excellent. It really lifted
my soul and it made me so excited about this
journey we're on with this podcast. Onward, everybody, onward to
(00:31):
see what's next. I am so happy to present today's
conversation with you. It is one of my favorite people
on the planet, Rory Kennedy, who is an unbelievably wonderful filmmaker.
She does documentaries with her husband Mark Bailey, and they
are all worth watching. Her latest one, Volcano Rescue at Facare,
(00:57):
is about a New Zealand lcanic explosion eruption that happened
while people were on the act of live volcano taking tours.
But the documentary is a beautiful weave of humanity, of patriotism,
(01:17):
of grace. It's full of grace everywhere you look. The
people who survived, the people who helped, the people who
went and rescued. When the rescue was called off, private
citizens got together and I don't want to ruin it.
I don't want to like talk all over myself, which
I do. I know I do, and I'm very sorry,
(01:39):
but I'm overly enthusiastic. Sometimes I don't know people I'm
doing my best. But thank you for the support and
the love, and I really hope that you enjoy this conversation.
Rory Kennedy was born in nineteen sixty eight. She's the
eleventh and last child of Senator Robert Kennedy and Ethel Kennedy.
She was in utero when her father was tragically assassinated,
(02:04):
and she's got a lot of him in her. I
could tell you that for sure, she's got a lot
of him in her. And the voices are similar, and
the face is definitely the face of a Kennedy. And
I'm an Irish Catholic girl born in nineteen sixty two.
The Kennedy's were huge in my family. I mean, my
(02:24):
mom had pictures of Kennedy in the house. The first
time I met Annie Kennedy member was about two weeks
after my show premiered, The Rosie o'donald Show in nineteen
ninety six, and I was finished with the show was
about eleven o'clock and my assistant Mary came in and said,
Ted Kennedy was just on the Today Show and he
(02:46):
and Ethel Kennedy want to come up and meet you
right now. They're in the elevator. My heart started pounding,
like no. I was like, wait a minute, Ted Kennedy,
I'm gonna meet Ted and Ethel Kennedy. I'm going to
and in they walked before I had time to compose myself,
and I sat down and I told him of my
(03:07):
Irish heritage, and you know, I would have told him
if it was now about my twenty three and me
came back one Irish, just Irish, only Irish. You are Irish, Irish,
Irish and if you are, boy, this family, my god.
We're all attached to them as a nation, and I
think Irish Americans hold them in such high regard, and
(03:29):
I definitely am one of those people. Rory is phenomenal
human being. I'm lucky to be her friend, and I'm
thrilled that she came and sat with me to talk
about this latest documentary she has made. Get ready because
here comes Rory Kennedy with her new documentary. Right after this,
(04:11):
I'm here with Rory Kennedy and this is Rosie O'donald
Starr The Flintstones, and yeah I was. We're here to
talk about you, but mostly your amazing work in documentary film,
which I've loved and followed you like a rabid fan
since the Ghosts of Abu Grabe. What an amazing documentary
that is. Thank you, Rosie. And I have to say
(04:33):
I'm so grateful to you because you always had me
on your show and I make very As my brother
Chris says, I make two kinds of films, depressing and
really depressing. Right, Well, you know that's what my kids
say to me, Oh mom, what are you watching? Oh great,
it's sad. I just wanted to say that you, more
than anybody else, always had me on your show and
(04:55):
you'd always bring me to whatever you were doing at
that time. So I'm grateful to you because to help
amplify these stories and get people to be aware of
themselves well like you. I'm a documentary freak, I know,
and I just thank years later. Yeah, like, yeah, it's
it's something that got me very young with I believe
(05:17):
Grey Gardens was the first one that I was totally
riveted by and thought, how can this be real? One
of the all time best, all time best. Yeah, amazing
film and it holds up, yes, And I lived in
Albert Maizelle's maid's apartment at the Dakota is a claim
to fame? Is it really? What? I was moving there
(05:39):
to do Broadway? And I went and met with him
and he interviewed me about what I wanted to do
and what I was going to do in my life,
and he was so sweet. And then I got to
know him and I would constantly pick his mind about it,
you know, and he was up there now at the
and he was But what a beautiful, amazing man. And
(06:01):
that was a documentary where the filmmaker really imposed himself. Yeah, yeah,
Well they were part of the story in a big way.
And you know, he really forged veritee filmmaking. I was
a huge fan of not only his work, but he
was just such a beautiful, decent human and just a
(06:23):
great cinematographer, a great filmmaker, just all around fantastic man.
How do you decide which documentaries to do? Because I
assume something like Abu Grabe, which at the time that
was the first real public consumption of the horrors that
we as a country did. Yeah, that was allowed to
(06:45):
sort of be on the TV. I remember I was
guest hosting on the View or something, Yes, and Sean
Hannity was on and he's like, we didn't torture anyone
in Abu Grabe. I'm like, why are we get it?
He's documentary? What's right? I want ye out? You know.
I had a huge fight with them, But how does
how there's so many stories, how do you decide which
(07:06):
one to do? And do you ever think I'm going
to get pushback on this? Well that one I did.
You know, we're your you and I. One of the
many things we have in common is our love for
Sheila and Evans without a doubt. So I was working
a lot with HBO at that time, and I was
looking at these images in the newspaper and the horrors
of these bodies and naked bodies piled up, and that
(07:31):
we had done this, and you know what, had had
this come to this world, this country? Like, how are
we in a position where this is something that we've endorsed.
So that was kind of an interesting film because I
really wanted to tell that story from the perspective of
the people who had committed those acts, including Lynda England. Yes,
(07:53):
and to understand their perspective of why they did it,
what those circumstances were, how they could make those choices,
and it's an, I think an interesting journey because I
think anybody starts out with so much judgment and how
could these people do this? Horrible people, And then as
you learn more and more you understand. You know, they
(08:15):
were mostly under twenty years old. They were thrown into
this prison with no training, They were not given any tools.
They were told you you were contributing to the war
on terror by preparing these people for us to do
interrogations and do what you need to do. The policy
at Abu Grade was everybody was naked when they walked
(08:37):
in the door. They stripped them of their clothes and
then they were told keep them up all night and
do whatever you need to do. So in the morning
when our interrogation team comes in, they are vulnerable, and
so you know, there's no excusing the behavior. But as
you learn more and more, you understand how these people
(08:59):
made those choices and that ultimately it needs to trickle
up all the way to the tops, right to Rumsfeld
to Bush, to the people who authorize these choices, to
go down on the ground of course, none of those
people were ever held accountable ever at the tops. And
you know, the people who are in my film deservingly
(09:22):
spent time in prison, did what they needed to do,
they paid their price. But you know, why is it
the people on the front lines are the only ones
who are really held responsible And it's not for the
people who ordered the torture exactly. So I think those
that kind of messaging, and you know, I think what
we do and you do is it's about storytelling, and
(09:45):
it's about bringing these characters and these people's lives into
the living rooms of you know, people who wouldn't be
exposed to them, and you end up hopefully understanding different
perspect active and having a greater sense of empathy and
compassion and a little bit more of an open heart maybe.
(10:08):
And look, it definitely opened my heart because I don't
think I ever told you this part, probably for fear
that I would scare you a little bit. I invited
Lindy England to my Miami house, Did I ever tell you? No?
So after your documentary and I was reading all about
her and how young she was and sexually abused by
that older guy who she thought she was in love with,
(10:29):
ended up getting pregnant with and she already had a
kid or maybe that was his kid, I'm not really sure.
When she came to visit me, she had a four
or five year old boy, right, and she was so broken.
There were so many other things that she needed help
with in her life that I can't imagine that fragile
a person being in charge and bullied and led and
(10:55):
told to do things that would ruin her life and
world like hold the League of the Man with the Collar. Yeah, right,
so I don't know what I think. My heart open
to her and I wanted to help her, but of
course then what happens is how do you help her? Yeah,
how do you help her? You can't really And she
stayed with me for a few days, and uh, and
(11:17):
then I didn't hear from her afterwards. I tried to
keep in touch, but yeah, yeah, it's do you ever
do that? You get like Colors one or two, some
broken people in the world, and oh my god, you
know it's it is hard, and you know, I think
to realize you can't fix everything, but at the same time,
you can contribute to trying to make the world a
better place, and the choices that we make and the
(11:38):
work that we do, and and just the compassion that
we have and m and having a bit of an
open heart. Yes, all sorts of people. Well, it's also means,
you know, Trump supporting people like we have to understand
different perspectives, even for people who politically are at the
(12:00):
different end of the spectrum than I think. You know,
you and I are quite a ligne in these wishs,
but like those people are that are probably more challenging
to you and me than a lot of others. Yes,
it's so true. I don't you know, I don't understand
willful blindness, you know, for them to be saying at
this point or any point that it was not an insurrection,
(12:21):
it was a happy day of sightseeing. Right. It's like,
you know, don't believe what your eyes saw, believe what
Tucker Carlson tells you. Yeah, but if you are listening
to Tucker Carlson and he's telling you things and you
trust him, then of course they're going to have that perspective.
And so how do we sort of change their source
of information and telecommunications act and have you know, news
(12:45):
sources that are more fair and balanced than they used
to be, Like we have to change kind of the
structure of the stru the system. Yeah, because if you're
being fed that information, you know, I'm reading scientists and
learning about what's happening with the climate. They're my source
of information. But if they were all wrong somehow, and
(13:05):
I still believe that we're you know, is that my fault? Right? Right?
I mean yeah, I think we just have to try
to meet people where they are and then work with
each other to evolve. Well, then, the latest documentary I
was so moved by, and it's called The Volcano the
(13:29):
Rescue at but it's spelled wh a, so it's confusing.
The wh turns into an F sound. Who knew that?
In New Zealand? Yeah? Yeah, I have a question about
why no one knew this happen. I know nothing about this,
Yeah until I saw your documentary. How's that possible in
(13:50):
our current news media bombardment? Yeah, well it was. It
was in December of twenty nineteen when this rupt happen.
But was it big news? Was it world news? Was it? Well?
I think that there was a lot going on at
that time. I think there was a lot going on
with Trump in this country and the congressional hearings. I
(14:13):
think there was a lot going on with COVID and
a number of other kind of major international events that
were drawing our attention, and so while it was international news,
I think it didn't. I mean the vast majority of
people who I spoke to when I was making the film,
we're not aware of it. I would say, one and
maybe twenty knew about it. Did you know about it
(14:36):
in twenty nineteen? I didn't know about it? How did
you come to find out about it? So I've been
working with Imagine, Ron Roward and Brian Grazier's company making
documentaries in partnership with them, and I was approached by
both Imagine and Appian Way. Leonardo DiCaprio's company. Leah's company
(14:58):
had the rights to this story that had been written
find an author named Alex Perry in Outside magazine about
what happened in Pagari on this day in twenty nineteen,
and it was he spent a good amount of time
there on the ground and it was a fascinating story.
And they asked me if I would be interested in
turning it into a documentary, and pretty immediately my partner
(15:23):
Mark and I felt like this was something that really
lent itself to a film, in part because nobody knew
about it and it felt like a story that was
deserving to be told. I was really I mean, just
so audiences understand. Basically, the story is that this was
a volcanic eruption that happened about forty five kilometers off
(15:48):
of the coast of New Zealand, the eastern coast of
the North Island of New Zealand. So it was in
a very remote location, and there were forty seven people
on the island, mostly tourists and gods like tours from
cruise ships and stuff right at the time of the eruption,
and so it was it was so far away that
(16:08):
for rescue teams to get there, either by helicopter or boat,
would take at least an hour. So what ended up
happening is that the people on the island had to
really lean into each other to survive. And that's part
of what this article described as how that these folks
(16:29):
kind of looked towards one another to get through this
very traumatic experience. But that's the point where your knees
get weak when you watch it. Yeah, yeah, there's a
point where the one guy says, well, when they said
they called off the search. You know, we knew what
we had to do. We did it. You know, I
(16:50):
was like wow, you know, and everyone followed the kind
of swell of humanity that was coming to help them.
It was so so real. Yeah, well, I mean, I
think one of the ways we told the story is
it's very much told in real time as the events happen,
(17:13):
and we only tell it from the perspective of people
who were there, who were on the ground, so there's
no outside voice and you're really in the moment. And then,
of course, since it's twenty nineteen and it's tourists on
an island, everybody has their iPhones, so it's very well
documented and there's footage in our film that's never been
(17:34):
seen before coming off of people's hard drives and iPhone camera.
So we spent a lot of time reaching out to individuals.
You know, it's not something that's covered on traditional news
footage archive because there was no news footage out there,
but there's a lot of iPhone footage, and so most
(17:55):
of the footage that you're seeing in the film is
iPhone footage that happened. You know, that's documenting the minute
by minute account of what happened, and it's all covered
by this footage, and you know there the footage is
for k I mean, there's beautiful, yeah, right, So I
(18:17):
think that you feel like you're there in part and
because of the way we told the story and because
we were lucky enough to have this footage, so you're
really you know, not only like leading up to the
moment where they go to the island. They arrive at
the island, they go to the Creator's Edge and then
the thing erupts and it's documented and the aftermath is documented.
(18:39):
And you know, there's one moment that I think is
probably the most powerful in the film where there's footage
that we have that of an iPhone and right in
the moment of eruption and the person puts it in
their pocket and so the screen goes black, but you
hear the audio and it's you know, it's I mean
(19:00):
it's black screen for forty seconds or something, but it's
it's very powerful because you're I think, hearing the audio
and you're really feeling what people are going through even
though it's there's nothing on screen. There's nothing on screen.
So powerful though, when they were talking about how did
(19:21):
we get burned? Through our clothes, right like that, Like
when you think of fire when you I mean, you
never think of volcanic eruption. You know, so whenever you
see somebody who suffered severe burns or you always think
it's through a flame, but this was through the steam. Well,
you know, I think most of us when we think
of volcanos, we think about the lava and that kind
(19:43):
of but this is a strat of volcano. So really
the eruption consists it's it's very violent, and it's very quick,
and it consists of steam and then debris. So it's
rocks and it's earth being shot out, you know, very
violent speeds. Um. There's a shot of a helicopter that
(20:06):
was on a helicopter stand that was turned over on
its side because of the power of these rocks and
the force. Um. But I think, you know, going back
to your point of people being burned under their clothes
but nothing showing on their clothes is because it's steam.
It's very very very hot, unimaginably a hot steam, and
(20:28):
so it, um, you know, it gets right under there.
I mean, one of one of the most remarkable people
in the film are many many remarkable people, but um,
it was Jesse who was right at the crater's edge,
and very few people survived the Yes, with his grandfather. Yes,
well he's with his grandfather now in the film, but
(20:51):
he was with his mom and with his mom and
dad and his sister. Yeah, none of whom survived tragically,
so horrible and to he it's to see him talking
at the beginning of the film and then showing the
video of them like happily going on this excursion, you know,
it breaks your heart even more. Yeah, but you know
he had he had seventy three percent of his body
(21:14):
was burned. And they say that there's a direct correlation
between how much you're burned and how likely you are
to survive. So if you're you know, thirty percent burned,
you have a seventy percent chance of survival. Oh ok,
so if you're seventy percent burned, you have a thirty
percent chance of survival. So he was, he was seventy
(21:34):
three percent burned. So you know his that and they
said he would be in the hospital for well over
a year and he got out after two months. Yeah,
it was America, and you know he's he's I mean
I got to see him. We premiered the film back
in the town of Fakatani when the film came out
(21:56):
last year in December, and I sat with him, and
you know, he is he's looking for his next adventure,
you know, I mean, he's definitely he's not going to
put himself in overly risky situations, but he continues to
lean into life and want to make the most of it.
(22:16):
And now, from your knowledge of so many ducks that
you've done and speaking to all these kind of survivor
incredible resilient people, that is that a kind of a
result of being burned that you in other words, it's
a result of almost losing your life. Or that was
always him? He was him, He was always an adventurer. Yeah.
(22:38):
I think he also just more importantly has some some
reserves in him of resilience. And you know, I don't.
I mean, who knows how this guy, you know, let alone,
wakes up every morning and puts one step in front
of the next, but beyond that is really wanting to
(23:01):
make the most of his life and is out there seeking,
you know, just having the best life possible. Is there
any compensation for these people? Did they get to sue
the cruise line or the Little excursion people. I mean,
not that the excursion people would have any money from yere. Yeah,
it's complicated. As it turns out, there's been some compensation,
(23:26):
but a lot of these cruise lines, even though they
appear to be American companies, their accounts are offshore in
different countries where it is much harder to sue, right,
And you know they also when you get on the cruise,
all that paperwork you sign says we're not going to sue. Yeah,
(23:46):
and you know that you're taking on a certain amount
of risk and you're aware of it phone and so forth.
So it limits the ability and in some cases it's
been hard to even get the insurance you know that
they deserve. But um, so and and different countries because
it's really represents the story people from all over the world.
(24:08):
There were Americans there, South South Africans, um Australians and
people from New Zealand as well, so and Europe, you know,
so it sort of is impacted by where you come
from and what the insurance is. And and then New
Zealand has its own complicated insurance policies, right. Um Also
(24:30):
you know, it's it's a country where it kind of
lends itself to adventure tourism, but you're quite limited in
terms of if something goes wrong if you don't live
in New Zealand, because you could you could tell by
the people of New Zealand who went to rescue any
survivors that would be there. They didn't think about that.
(24:53):
I can imagine if this happened like in America, people going, well,
I'm going to get sued if I, you know, go
in like it was. It's like everyone's humanity came first,
and yeah, saving the lives was the most important thing,
even at the risk of your own and that was
true heroic patriot. Yeah. In a way, it feels like
(25:13):
I've never been there or to Australia, but it feels
like a country of kind of simpler way of life,
a more true and more nature infused way of life. Yeah,
like not a litigious society. And I think the real
heroes of this film are those helicopter pilots, you know,
(25:34):
Mark and Tim and John, who all took it upon
themselves as you say they You know, the thing about
this island, when you're in the mainland, in the town
closes Sakatani, you see it like it's out there it's
you know, it's in sight. I mean it's forty five kilometers,
but you can see it and it's sort of always
(25:55):
there looking at you and you're looking out it in
and so you that, you know, people could it was
beautiful day. People saw it when it erupt him, right,
and so they saw it and they just they were
they had helicopters and there and Mark Laws like, I'm
getting on my helicopter, I'm going out there. I appreciate
if there's somebody who's been a fixed wing who can communicate,
(26:16):
because there's no communication on the island. So to communicate
to the other authorities, you have to have a plane
circling above. Oh wow, So then that's a fixed wing
as an airplane. So because I got it, yeah, I
did that myself. Thank you. I just did a visual
(26:37):
flying wings with good good. I know you think visually, Rosie.
So I'm trying to help you out anyway. So that's
circling above, right, And then Mark, who was on the
helicopter with Tim who was on another helicopter on the ground,
could communicate to John who's circling, and then John can
communicate to the authorities. So they had, you know, and
(27:00):
it wasn't. I mean, you know, Mark, Mark, it's such
a New Zealand thing in my mind. But Mark was like,
I didn't ask anybody to come. I just told everybody
I was going right, and if they chose to come,
they could choose to come, But I wasn't going to
ask anybody to go out there, right. How great people
did show up, yes, So then these three guys kind
(27:21):
of show up, and the more actually ultimately help. But
you know, when they go to this island, and meanwhile
we find out that the authorities who are frankly in
a better position because they have the helicopters and the
medical professionals who can really help people on the ground.
Once you know, Mark Law is now on the island,
(27:42):
the thing's still erupting, you know, and it's still like
it's like not a conducive environment to be navigating, or
you can't really see, and there's so much steam and
it's really hot you can't really breathe, and you know,
it's a tough environment. And then he finds out and
he's sort of finding people and more people and more people,
(28:02):
and he's kind of getting them comfortable enough for the
authorities to come. And then they get the word that
the authorities have decided it's too dangerous and they're not
going to send Can you believe that? That's hard to believe.
It reminds me of your other documentary, The Last Days
of Vietnam Vietnam, Yes, it was. There was a similar
storytelling in both that there was Richard Armitage who said,
(28:23):
I will not leave these people in the water, and
he took all of these people who are trying to
escape onto his navy ship. That was a phenomenal dock
that you did. Thank you. I love a little your documentary.
I do. I do so this one since I watched it,
I've watched it a couple of times because I knew
I was going to talk to you, and I also
(28:45):
I have been interested in following people who say they
were there now, and I was like, well, why wasn't
that person in the dock? You went to people who
weren't interested, or you didn't feel there was enough time
for each story, or um. It was a combination. Again.
You know, I didn't want to pressure anybody who didn't
want to tell their story to tell their stories. So
(29:07):
it was it was sort of a Mark Law approach,
like we're doing this, We would love to talk to
you if if you want to be included, but it's
an extraordinarily you know, traumatic events that they've gone through,
and so I don't want to add to that, you know,
And I think for some people it can be I
don't want to say therapeutic, but I think that it
(29:29):
can be helpful or to tell their story to feel
like they're being heard. And then I do think, I mean,
I don't want to project on to everybody what their
own experiences, but I do think that largely having talked
to many of the folks who were on the island
and went through this and shared their story with us,
(29:49):
that the response to the film and the fact that
so many people I have seen the film and that
it was you know it was it was number one
film on Netflix, World World, why not just documentary like
film during Christmas week? Right, like what right? That's when
I saw it. Yeah, it's like crazy, unexpected, and I
(30:13):
just and I think they there was so much love
for them and so much admiration sad hours express as
social media when nuts and everybody was you know, so
I think to be heard, to know that your story,
like people understand your story on some level not so
(30:35):
it's you know, I think it's been positive. And then
I think for a lot of them, many of them
also say, like it's nice that if somebody asked me
about my story, I can say, go watch the film, right, Like,
they don't have to actually tell their story to everybody,
and they don't have to be rude about it. They
can just say, go watch the film and then you
can see the story and I don't have to tell
(30:57):
you every single person because it's and I do you know,
I am very aware that even the telling of the
story can be triggering and can go either way. It
can be positive or negative. And so we also, you know,
with the supportive Netflix provided therapeutic support for folks are
(31:19):
telling their story or in the aftermath. So um, anyway,
you know, we tried to to be conscious of really
appreciating just what it takes to go back and and
and you know too for these interviews to really translate
(31:41):
like you're you know, when you're talking to somebody, if
they're just saying words versus like in the experience of
what they're going through. And all of these people were
like so in the you know, like I'm crying talking
to them. You know, it's so powerful. I mean, really,
(32:01):
with all these films that I've made, the interviews that
I did for the Volcano were really among the most
poignant and powerful and like impactful to me and to
me I was watching it and I was so emotionally
connected to the whole thing. And I remember when we
had dinner, you said, sometimes when you do a documentary,
(32:23):
you have to worry that is the pain worth the
resolve or the result? The result? Right is it will
you sit through this documentary or would it be too painful?
And I felt like it was the opposite. It was
almost like the joy was as abundant as the grief
and the pain. That's nice of you to say it,
(32:44):
but it was a balance. But that's my experience too.
I Mean I I felt both, and every single interview
I did, I was like crying and grieving and then
just celebratory and joyful and so humbled and overwhelmed by
just the ability to kind of endure through this stuff
(33:09):
and to keep going, you know, to choose to choose
in you know, being in this remote island. I mean,
there's also the story that the beautiful American couple who
are there on their honeymoon, you know, and they're there.
They have this very sweet moment where I'm interviewing them
(33:32):
and you know, their their bodies are covered with burns
and I'm talking to them, and at the end of
the interview, Lauren, the wife, says, you know, she she says,
when we were when we were in the moment of
the eruption, we fell on each other, and I remember
just feeling like I want I'm going to die here,
(33:54):
and I want to die in Matt's arms, and and
they were holding each other, and the place where they're
holding each other on their arms is the only place
that's not burned on their arms, and it's the only
place where they have full movement because they were holding
each other and protecting each other, like it's so beautiful
(34:17):
and sweet. And then you know, and she says, this
is the worst experience of my life, but I'm so
much closer to my husband and I love him so
much and we're just going to be together forever. And
then Matt has this sweet little smile, you know, like
She's right, we do and there and it like every
(34:38):
time I watch it, it like makes me tear Yeah,
it makes me tear up too. The thing that I
loved about their relationship was how she was not into it,
not the relationship, the excursion. She was like, oh, honey,
we have to go. What if it erupts? He says,
He's not gonna erupt? You kidding me this, you know.
And he was very much an adventurer and she was
very much not. I think one of the lines he
(35:00):
said was, you know, complaining about things was pretty typical.
You know. So she's like an erotic wife, you know,
saying you know, I don't want to do this, and
then the worst of the worst happens and they still
get through it. Yeah. Well, she's relatable in that way,
I think for a lot of people who are like,
you know, she's like, I like to go on a
beach and neat a book. Well, that's exactly me, exactly.
(35:23):
I don't want to go on anything adventurous. Yeah, that
could possibly hurt me. Yeah. Well anyway, So so I
think these things are also you know, you identify and
you identify, well, you know, you're in New Zealand and
there's like a cool volcano to go, say what I
sign up for that? Sure? Yeah, maybe, you know, not me,
No way I would be in the hotel going. I
(35:46):
wonder if I could watch wind Loser draw today. You know,
I don't know now what are you working on next?
Because this is what I love about documentary filmmakers. They
have five or ten or fifteen ideas. But is there
anything coming up? But I'm I'm doing a film right
now for HBO about Synanon, which is which I do
(36:08):
not know about. Yeah, a lot of people don't. Most
people don't, but it's it's a fascinating story about It
was the first drug treatment program that was started in
the United States in nineteen fifty eight. But a guy
named Chuck D. Trick, he was in AA, and he
went to AA meetings and he didn't like the fact
(36:30):
that people just told their stories and you couldn't call
them out on their bologny got it. He had allegedly
witnessed somebody at an AA meeting who had talked about
being in you know, an AA for three years, and
he had just seen the guy walk out of a
liquor store like two weeks before, and so he wanted
(36:50):
to call him out but couldn't. Anyway, so he started
these AA meetings in his house and it was a
free for all. Well and then people would call each
other out, and people loved it. And then for the
first time, as a drug addict, you couldn't go to AA.
But drug addicts started coming to his meetings and he
(37:11):
would allow them, and then they said can we stay here?
And he was like, well sure we can. Just you know,
when he got a storefront, put some couches in, they
would crash out on the couches, and then they would
stay longer and longer, and there were more and more
of them, and ultimately expanded Got the brought the del
Mar Hotel and expanded up into northern California and then
(37:37):
kind of turned into a lifestyle community. Did they follow
the twelve steps or whether it just a whole new
take on sobriety. It was really the beginning of the
therapeutic community. This was the first therapeutic community, and then
a bunch of therapeutic communities like Phoenix House and others
spawned out of people who went to Cinnanon. Got It,
(37:58):
so all of those basically you can connect back to Cinnanon.
And did it eventually become a cult? Yes? And are
you deep in it or you just deep in it? Yeah?
I'm deep in it. Okaye one question about your Volcano doc.
You have Hans zimmer to the score to the Volcano movie.
How did that come about. It's a very funny story
(38:20):
because we got into some situation, um where Netflix wanted
the film delivered a few months earlier than our original schedule,
which isn't a note that you necessarily want. Thank you,
no thanks, But in any case, um, we were accommodating,
(38:42):
and but our composer wasn't able to adjust to the
new schedule, so we had to get a new composer.
And so you just picked like the biggest oscar winner
in the world, if they go. So I had played
tennis the morning before with his ex wife, who's lovely, okay,
And I thought, well, i don't know what their relationship is,
(39:04):
but I'm going to call her and see if she
still has his cell phone number, which I did and
she did, and they feel a lovely relationship. And so
I called him like cold called, Oh my god, I
mean really now, it was audacious, but he was so lovely,
and I said, of course, I'm not asking you to
(39:26):
be involved. I just thought maybe you would know somebody
or because you I'm I'm in this bind and you know,
you're really the greatest thing ever. So um he said, uh,
you know, I'm performing for the Queen tonight and I've
got this film. And I was like, okay, if you're
too big, he's just send it to me and I'll
look at it. So I send it to him. He
(39:47):
calls me the next morning. Wow, I love and he says,
my god, this is so great. That's what I thought
about the film too. It's so great. I'm in and
and well you shocked, yes, yes, yes, And and we
worked with a composer who was brilliant, Steve Mazzarro, who
(40:08):
works with him and with Hans. Hans was on every
call and would give these notes and you know, and
he's so interesting because he really approaches the score like
a film, right. He's like, Okay, this is what this
score needs to do, and this is what it says,
and this is you know, it's like a narrative. The
beginning's got to be this, and the middle's gotta be this.
(40:29):
The ending's got to land like this, and we you know,
and you know, he's just delivered. And there's so many
like the mantra with documentaries is like, Okay, the music
needs to not interfere and be in the background and
you don't want to be aware of it. And he's
like ba boom right right exactly, I am here and
(40:52):
I have something to say and I'm gonna say it.
And it's awesome. Yeah, it really is. And it really
lifts it to a whole other level. I mean that
without it, it wouldn't have done what it did, but
what it's still doing. Yeah, but you know, music plays
a huge, huge, huge role. So I'm eternally grateful to him.
And he's you know, he's just lovely and a super decent,
(41:16):
committed guy. And well, Hans Zimmer, thank you very much
for putting your stamp on that. Now tell me about
this Climate Emergency Fund. What is going on with this
because from all knowledgeable scientists, it's already too late. Yeah, well,
thank you for asking, because I'm very proud of our
(41:36):
Climate Emergency Fund. First of all, I would say it's
not too late, and most scientists don't think it's quite
too late. But we're very very close. We have another
like four or five years and then it becomes too late.
So we still have time, but we've got to focus
on it. So I started the Climate Emergency Fund about Well,
(41:59):
it was right up to the Wolsey Fire in twenty nineteen,
which I lived through here in California and had to
you know, flee my house with my husband and my
kids and our three dogs and two goats and towardoise
all like anyway, So that was its own experience. And
(42:21):
then I had also finished the film about NASA, who's
done all of the really most of the research on
climate and those scientists all said, please make this film
focused on climate change, because we are on a train
wreck and it's not a question of if, it's a
question of when. And then at the same time, the
(42:43):
IPCC report came out, the International Group of Scientists saying
we have ten years to figure this out and otherwise
it's going to be too late. So I felt like
there was, you know, such an urgency and a lot
of the traditional environmental groups were or staying on their
same path, and that we needed to sound the alarm,
(43:05):
yes in a big way, and so how are we
going to do this? And my own you know feeling
about kind of looking back at history when you saw
significant change happen in this country, and beyond that, nothing
ever happened with how people getting into the streets and
causing disruption. And so the idea of the Climate Emergency
(43:29):
Fund is for the first time really to finance activism,
to support disruption, non violent disruption. And so that's what
we do, and we support climate activists all over the world.
When I came up with this idea with my friend
(43:50):
Trevor Nielsen, we went out to funders and most of
them either hung up or you know, dissuaded me from
doing this, and none of them gave me money until like,
we called Eileen Getty and we told her about the
idea and at the end of the call she said,
I'll give you five hundred thousand dollars. I enjoy that woman. Yeah,
(44:12):
she's fantastic. And then she's since joined our board and
continues to write checks and write articles and be at
the forefront and very brave and courageous on this issue.
We recently were supported by Adam McKay, director of Yes,
Don't Look Up, which was the greatest film, which was
(44:34):
such a great film, and he said he is giving
us four million dollars. Oh my god, doesn't that just
He joined our board And so it's and it's a
very small board. There's there's maybe five of us on
the board, and we are out there supporting these activists
who are causing disruption both in this country, in England,
(44:57):
in Africa and Australia and New Zealand, just to get
the attention out there. Yeah, and they're you know, they're fantastic.
And you know there are a lot of the activists
like who we're targeting center a mansion and duct taping
themselves to his door, bringing attention to his own oil
(45:18):
fields and whatnot. You know, we support all of those acts. Anyway,
It's it's an exciting initiative. And where how can people
get involved? People who are listening? I mean, really, what
we're doing is we raise money and then we give
it to the activists. So if in my opinion, right now,
you should either be getting arrested or supporting people who
are getting arrested, so you can look at the Climate
(45:39):
Emergency Fund website to find opportunities to do so. And
if you don't want to get arrested, or if you
do want to get arrested and have fifteen dollars in
your pocket or five million dollars in your pocket, I
think it's worth supporting these activists because I agree listen.
It's a joy to know you. It's a joy to
know you. All right, Rory ken It's Rory Kennedy. And
(46:01):
watch her doc on Netflix. Would you don't go anywhere?
We're not done yet, Okay, so now we have questions
(46:28):
from viewers like you. Take a listen. Hi there, Rosie.
My name is Andrew. I am a writer and comedian
in la I am so thrilled that the world has
been waiting with bated breath for you to enter the
podcast market. I really do consider you one of the
greatest interviewers and broadcasters the world has ever known, So
this is very exciting. My question would be that, and so,
(46:49):
first of all, thank you so much for this trickle
of clips from the Rosy Show that you've been releasing
online on your YouTube channel. It has been an amazing
It has been an amazing surprise on my new feed
whenever I do go on and I'm wondering the streisand
interview an episode notwithstanding, because I know you'd say that,
what has been the interview that you have revisited after
(47:12):
all this time that has really surprised you in some way?
And what was the most difficult one in all of
that hindsight anyway, So thrilled you're back again. Thank you
so much for all you do. You're a warrior and
keep doing it. Thank you, Thank you so much, first
of all for your kindness. It's very, very sweet, and
I appreciate it for real. I think that Joni Mitchell
(47:35):
was probably the best interview for me emotionally. Yeah, you know,
I grew up with her lyrics sort of defining my
emotional truths, and I think she's the best living lyricist,
poet artist. She really moves me like no one else.
(47:59):
And it's been one of the greatest joys of my
life to get to be her friend, or to know her,
to have interviewed her, to be in her orbit. As
I say, she's an amazing woman. And you know, there
were people that I invited on the show that maybe
Warner Brothers was like, I don't want to have her.
Why would anybody? You know? Like Rosemary Clooney, that's another
one I think of. I loved every time Rosemary Clooney
(48:22):
was on my show. What an amazing woman. And I
grew up listening to her music, and you know, it's
just wild when you get to meet your heroes and
everyone from streisand to Joni Mitchell, to Rosemary Clooney and
everyone in between. It's been a wonderful, wonderful reality that
I got to do that show for six years and
(48:43):
with so many memories and so many great artists. And
thank you for asking I. We're going to keep those
Rosy O'donald clips coming on YouTube, so thanks for that too.
I appreciate it. So next week is my friend Jennifer Lewis,
the Saint Lewis Lewis's you know, she is the mother
of Black Hollywood. She is epic in Blackish, and she's
(49:07):
unbelievable and I've so loved that for you, which is
a wonderful show with Molly Shannon and Jennifer Lewis and
a wonderful cast of women. So look at that show
if you get a chance, would you Jennifer Lewis? Next
week on Onward with Rosio Donn
Okay, everybody, it's me Rosie O'Donnell. We are back for
episode two and I just want to thank you so much.
The outpouring of support, the amount of people who tuned in,
the people who commented, all just excellent. It really lifted
my soul and it made me so excited about this
journey we're on with this podcast. Onward, everybody, onward to
(00:31):
see what's next. I am so happy to present today's
conversation with you. It is one of my favorite people
on the planet, Rory Kennedy, who is an unbelievably wonderful filmmaker.
She does documentaries with her husband Mark Bailey, and they
are all worth watching. Her latest one, Volcano Rescue at Facare,
(00:57):
is about a New Zealand lcanic explosion eruption that happened
while people were on the act of live volcano taking tours.
But the documentary is a beautiful weave of humanity, of patriotism,
(01:17):
of grace. It's full of grace everywhere you look. The
people who survived, the people who helped, the people who
went and rescued. When the rescue was called off, private
citizens got together and I don't want to ruin it.
I don't want to like talk all over myself, which
I do. I know I do, and I'm very sorry,
(01:39):
but I'm overly enthusiastic. Sometimes I don't know people I'm
doing my best. But thank you for the support and
the love, and I really hope that you enjoy this conversation.
Rory Kennedy was born in nineteen sixty eight. She's the
eleventh and last child of Senator Robert Kennedy and Ethel Kennedy.
She was in utero when her father was tragically assassinated,
(02:04):
and she's got a lot of him in her. I
could tell you that for sure, she's got a lot
of him in her. And the voices are similar, and
the face is definitely the face of a Kennedy. And
I'm an Irish Catholic girl born in nineteen sixty two.
The Kennedy's were huge in my family. I mean, my
(02:24):
mom had pictures of Kennedy in the house. The first
time I met Annie Kennedy member was about two weeks
after my show premiered, The Rosie o'donald Show in nineteen
ninety six, and I was finished with the show was
about eleven o'clock and my assistant Mary came in and said,
Ted Kennedy was just on the Today Show and he
(02:46):
and Ethel Kennedy want to come up and meet you
right now. They're in the elevator. My heart started pounding,
like no. I was like, wait a minute, Ted Kennedy,
I'm gonna meet Ted and Ethel Kennedy. I'm going to
and in they walked before I had time to compose myself,
and I sat down and I told him of my
(03:07):
Irish heritage, and you know, I would have told him
if it was now about my twenty three and me
came back one Irish, just Irish, only Irish. You are Irish, Irish,
Irish and if you are, boy, this family, my god.
We're all attached to them as a nation, and I
think Irish Americans hold them in such high regard, and
(03:29):
I definitely am one of those people. Rory is phenomenal
human being. I'm lucky to be her friend, and I'm
thrilled that she came and sat with me to talk
about this latest documentary she has made. Get ready because
here comes Rory Kennedy with her new documentary. Right after this,
(04:11):
I'm here with Rory Kennedy and this is Rosie O'donald
Starr The Flintstones, and yeah I was. We're here to
talk about you, but mostly your amazing work in documentary film,
which I've loved and followed you like a rabid fan
since the Ghosts of Abu Grabe. What an amazing documentary
that is. Thank you, Rosie. And I have to say
(04:33):
I'm so grateful to you because you always had me
on your show and I make very As my brother
Chris says, I make two kinds of films, depressing and
really depressing. Right, Well, you know that's what my kids
say to me, Oh mom, what are you watching? Oh great,
it's sad. I just wanted to say that you, more
than anybody else, always had me on your show and
(04:55):
you'd always bring me to whatever you were doing at
that time. So I'm grateful to you because to help
amplify these stories and get people to be aware of
themselves well like you. I'm a documentary freak, I know,
and I just thank years later. Yeah, like, yeah, it's
it's something that got me very young with I believe
(05:17):
Grey Gardens was the first one that I was totally
riveted by and thought, how can this be real? One
of the all time best, all time best. Yeah, amazing
film and it holds up, yes, And I lived in
Albert Maizelle's maid's apartment at the Dakota is a claim
to fame? Is it really? What? I was moving there
(05:39):
to do Broadway? And I went and met with him
and he interviewed me about what I wanted to do
and what I was going to do in my life,
and he was so sweet. And then I got to
know him and I would constantly pick his mind about it,
you know, and he was up there now at the
and he was But what a beautiful, amazing man. And
(06:01):
that was a documentary where the filmmaker really imposed himself. Yeah, yeah,
Well they were part of the story in a big way.
And you know, he really forged veritee filmmaking. I was
a huge fan of not only his work, but he
was just such a beautiful, decent human and just a
(06:23):
great cinematographer, a great filmmaker, just all around fantastic man.
How do you decide which documentaries to do? Because I
assume something like Abu Grabe, which at the time that
was the first real public consumption of the horrors that
we as a country did. Yeah, that was allowed to
(06:45):
sort of be on the TV. I remember I was
guest hosting on the View or something, Yes, and Sean
Hannity was on and he's like, we didn't torture anyone
in Abu Grabe. I'm like, why are we get it?
He's documentary? What's right? I want ye out? You know.
I had a huge fight with them, But how does
how there's so many stories, how do you decide which
(07:06):
one to do? And do you ever think I'm going
to get pushback on this? Well that one I did.
You know, we're your you and I. One of the
many things we have in common is our love for
Sheila and Evans without a doubt. So I was working
a lot with HBO at that time, and I was
looking at these images in the newspaper and the horrors
of these bodies and naked bodies piled up, and that
(07:31):
we had done this, and you know what, had had
this come to this world, this country? Like, how are
we in a position where this is something that we've endorsed.
So that was kind of an interesting film because I
really wanted to tell that story from the perspective of
the people who had committed those acts, including Lynda England. Yes,
(07:53):
and to understand their perspective of why they did it,
what those circumstances were, how they could make those choices,
and it's an, I think an interesting journey because I
think anybody starts out with so much judgment and how
could these people do this? Horrible people, And then as
you learn more and more you understand. You know, they
(08:15):
were mostly under twenty years old. They were thrown into
this prison with no training, They were not given any tools.
They were told you you were contributing to the war
on terror by preparing these people for us to do
interrogations and do what you need to do. The policy
at Abu Grade was everybody was naked when they walked
(08:37):
in the door. They stripped them of their clothes and
then they were told keep them up all night and
do whatever you need to do. So in the morning
when our interrogation team comes in, they are vulnerable, and
so you know, there's no excusing the behavior. But as
you learn more and more, you understand how these people
(08:59):
made those choices and that ultimately it needs to trickle
up all the way to the tops, right to Rumsfeld
to Bush, to the people who authorize these choices, to
go down on the ground of course, none of those
people were ever held accountable ever at the tops. And
you know, the people who are in my film deservingly
(09:22):
spent time in prison, did what they needed to do,
they paid their price. But you know, why is it
the people on the front lines are the only ones
who are really held responsible And it's not for the
people who ordered the torture exactly. So I think those
that kind of messaging, and you know, I think what
we do and you do is it's about storytelling, and
(09:45):
it's about bringing these characters and these people's lives into
the living rooms of you know, people who wouldn't be
exposed to them, and you end up hopefully understanding different
perspect active and having a greater sense of empathy and
compassion and a little bit more of an open heart maybe.
(10:08):
And look, it definitely opened my heart because I don't
think I ever told you this part, probably for fear
that I would scare you a little bit. I invited
Lindy England to my Miami house, Did I ever tell you? No?
So after your documentary and I was reading all about
her and how young she was and sexually abused by
that older guy who she thought she was in love with,
(10:29):
ended up getting pregnant with and she already had a
kid or maybe that was his kid, I'm not really sure.
When she came to visit me, she had a four
or five year old boy, right, and she was so broken.
There were so many other things that she needed help
with in her life that I can't imagine that fragile
a person being in charge and bullied and led and
(10:55):
told to do things that would ruin her life and
world like hold the League of the Man with the Collar. Yeah, right,
so I don't know what I think. My heart open
to her and I wanted to help her, but of
course then what happens is how do you help her? Yeah,
how do you help her? You can't really And she
stayed with me for a few days, and uh, and
(11:17):
then I didn't hear from her afterwards. I tried to
keep in touch, but yeah, yeah, it's do you ever
do that? You get like Colors one or two, some
broken people in the world, and oh my god, you
know it's it is hard, and you know, I think
to realize you can't fix everything, but at the same time,
you can contribute to trying to make the world a
better place, and the choices that we make and the
(11:38):
work that we do, and and just the compassion that
we have and m and having a bit of an
open heart. Yes, all sorts of people. Well, it's also means,
you know, Trump supporting people like we have to understand
different perspectives, even for people who politically are at the
(12:00):
different end of the spectrum than I think. You know,
you and I are quite a ligne in these wishs,
but like those people are that are probably more challenging
to you and me than a lot of others. Yes,
it's so true. I don't you know, I don't understand
willful blindness, you know, for them to be saying at
this point or any point that it was not an insurrection,
(12:21):
it was a happy day of sightseeing. Right. It's like,
you know, don't believe what your eyes saw, believe what
Tucker Carlson tells you. Yeah, but if you are listening
to Tucker Carlson and he's telling you things and you
trust him, then of course they're going to have that perspective.
And so how do we sort of change their source
of information and telecommunications act and have you know, news
(12:45):
sources that are more fair and balanced than they used
to be, Like we have to change kind of the
structure of the stru the system. Yeah, because if you're
being fed that information, you know, I'm reading scientists and
learning about what's happening with the climate. They're my source
of information. But if they were all wrong somehow, and
(13:05):
I still believe that we're you know, is that my fault? Right? Right?
I mean yeah, I think we just have to try
to meet people where they are and then work with
each other to evolve. Well, then, the latest documentary I
was so moved by, and it's called The Volcano the
(13:29):
Rescue at but it's spelled wh a, so it's confusing.
The wh turns into an F sound. Who knew that?
In New Zealand? Yeah? Yeah, I have a question about
why no one knew this happen. I know nothing about this,
Yeah until I saw your documentary. How's that possible in
(13:50):
our current news media bombardment? Yeah, well it was. It
was in December of twenty nineteen when this rupt happen.
But was it big news? Was it world news? Was it? Well?
I think that there was a lot going on at
that time. I think there was a lot going on
with Trump in this country and the congressional hearings. I
(14:13):
think there was a lot going on with COVID and
a number of other kind of major international events that
were drawing our attention, and so while it was international news,
I think it didn't. I mean the vast majority of
people who I spoke to when I was making the film,
we're not aware of it. I would say, one and
maybe twenty knew about it. Did you know about it
(14:36):
in twenty nineteen? I didn't know about it? How did
you come to find out about it? So I've been
working with Imagine, Ron Roward and Brian Grazier's company making
documentaries in partnership with them, and I was approached by
both Imagine and Appian Way. Leonardo DiCaprio's company. Leah's company
(14:58):
had the rights to this story that had been written
find an author named Alex Perry in Outside magazine about
what happened in Pagari on this day in twenty nineteen,
and it was he spent a good amount of time
there on the ground and it was a fascinating story.
And they asked me if I would be interested in
turning it into a documentary, and pretty immediately my partner
(15:23):
Mark and I felt like this was something that really
lent itself to a film, in part because nobody knew
about it and it felt like a story that was
deserving to be told. I was really I mean, just
so audiences understand. Basically, the story is that this was
a volcanic eruption that happened about forty five kilometers off
(15:48):
of the coast of New Zealand, the eastern coast of
the North Island of New Zealand. So it was in
a very remote location, and there were forty seven people
on the island, mostly tourists and gods like tours from
cruise ships and stuff right at the time of the eruption,
and so it was it was so far away that
(16:08):
for rescue teams to get there, either by helicopter or boat,
would take at least an hour. So what ended up
happening is that the people on the island had to
really lean into each other to survive. And that's part
of what this article described as how that these folks
(16:29):
kind of looked towards one another to get through this
very traumatic experience. But that's the point where your knees
get weak when you watch it. Yeah, yeah, there's a
point where the one guy says, well, when they said
they called off the search. You know, we knew what
we had to do. We did it. You know, I
(16:50):
was like wow, you know, and everyone followed the kind
of swell of humanity that was coming to help them.
It was so so real. Yeah, well, I mean, I
think one of the ways we told the story is
it's very much told in real time as the events happen,
(17:13):
and we only tell it from the perspective of people
who were there, who were on the ground, so there's
no outside voice and you're really in the moment. And then,
of course, since it's twenty nineteen and it's tourists on
an island, everybody has their iPhones, so it's very well
documented and there's footage in our film that's never been
(17:34):
seen before coming off of people's hard drives and iPhone camera.
So we spent a lot of time reaching out to individuals.
You know, it's not something that's covered on traditional news
footage archive because there was no news footage out there,
but there's a lot of iPhone footage, and so most
(17:55):
of the footage that you're seeing in the film is
iPhone footage that happened. You know, that's documenting the minute
by minute account of what happened, and it's all covered
by this footage, and you know there the footage is
for k I mean, there's beautiful, yeah, right, So I
(18:17):
think that you feel like you're there in part and
because of the way we told the story and because
we were lucky enough to have this footage, so you're
really you know, not only like leading up to the
moment where they go to the island. They arrive at
the island, they go to the Creator's Edge and then
the thing erupts and it's documented and the aftermath is documented.
(18:39):
And you know, there's one moment that I think is
probably the most powerful in the film where there's footage
that we have that of an iPhone and right in
the moment of eruption and the person puts it in
their pocket and so the screen goes black, but you
hear the audio and it's you know, it's I mean
(19:00):
it's black screen for forty seconds or something, but it's
it's very powerful because you're I think, hearing the audio
and you're really feeling what people are going through even
though it's there's nothing on screen. There's nothing on screen.
So powerful though, when they were talking about how did
(19:21):
we get burned? Through our clothes, right like that, Like
when you think of fire when you I mean, you
never think of volcanic eruption. You know, so whenever you
see somebody who suffered severe burns or you always think
it's through a flame, but this was through the steam. Well,
you know, I think most of us when we think
of volcanos, we think about the lava and that kind
(19:43):
of but this is a strat of volcano. So really
the eruption consists it's it's very violent, and it's very quick,
and it consists of steam and then debris. So it's
rocks and it's earth being shot out, you know, very
violent speeds. Um. There's a shot of a helicopter that
(20:06):
was on a helicopter stand that was turned over on
its side because of the power of these rocks and
the force. Um. But I think, you know, going back
to your point of people being burned under their clothes
but nothing showing on their clothes is because it's steam.
It's very very very hot, unimaginably a hot steam, and
(20:28):
so it, um, you know, it gets right under there.
I mean, one of one of the most remarkable people
in the film are many many remarkable people, but um,
it was Jesse who was right at the crater's edge,
and very few people survived the Yes, with his grandfather. Yes,
well he's with his grandfather now in the film, but
(20:51):
he was with his mom and with his mom and
dad and his sister. Yeah, none of whom survived tragically,
so horrible and to he it's to see him talking
at the beginning of the film and then showing the
video of them like happily going on this excursion, you know,
it breaks your heart even more. Yeah, but you know
he had he had seventy three percent of his body
(21:14):
was burned. And they say that there's a direct correlation
between how much you're burned and how likely you are
to survive. So if you're you know, thirty percent burned,
you have a seventy percent chance of survival. Oh ok,
so if you're seventy percent burned, you have a thirty
percent chance of survival. So he was, he was seventy
(21:34):
three percent burned. So you know his that and they
said he would be in the hospital for well over
a year and he got out after two months. Yeah,
it was America, and you know he's he's I mean
I got to see him. We premiered the film back
in the town of Fakatani when the film came out
(21:56):
last year in December, and I sat with him, and
you know, he is he's looking for his next adventure,
you know, I mean, he's definitely he's not going to
put himself in overly risky situations, but he continues to
lean into life and want to make the most of it.
(22:16):
And now, from your knowledge of so many ducks that
you've done and speaking to all these kind of survivor
incredible resilient people, that is that a kind of a
result of being burned that you in other words, it's
a result of almost losing your life. Or that was
always him? He was him, He was always an adventurer. Yeah.
(22:38):
I think he also just more importantly has some some
reserves in him of resilience. And you know, I don't.
I mean, who knows how this guy, you know, let alone,
wakes up every morning and puts one step in front
of the next, but beyond that is really wanting to
(23:01):
make the most of his life and is out there seeking,
you know, just having the best life possible. Is there
any compensation for these people? Did they get to sue
the cruise line or the Little excursion people. I mean,
not that the excursion people would have any money from yere. Yeah,
it's complicated. As it turns out, there's been some compensation,
(23:26):
but a lot of these cruise lines, even though they
appear to be American companies, their accounts are offshore in
different countries where it is much harder to sue, right,
And you know they also when you get on the cruise,
all that paperwork you sign says we're not going to sue. Yeah,
(23:46):
and you know that you're taking on a certain amount
of risk and you're aware of it phone and so forth.
So it limits the ability and in some cases it's
been hard to even get the insurance you know that
they deserve. But um, so and and different countries because
it's really represents the story people from all over the world.
(24:08):
There were Americans there, South South Africans, um Australians and
people from New Zealand as well, so and Europe, you know,
so it sort of is impacted by where you come
from and what the insurance is. And and then New
Zealand has its own complicated insurance policies, right. Um Also
(24:30):
you know, it's it's a country where it kind of
lends itself to adventure tourism, but you're quite limited in
terms of if something goes wrong if you don't live
in New Zealand, because you could you could tell by
the people of New Zealand who went to rescue any
survivors that would be there. They didn't think about that.
(24:53):
I can imagine if this happened like in America, people going, well,
I'm going to get sued if I, you know, go
in like it was. It's like everyone's humanity came first,
and yeah, saving the lives was the most important thing,
even at the risk of your own and that was
true heroic patriot. Yeah. In a way, it feels like
(25:13):
I've never been there or to Australia, but it feels
like a country of kind of simpler way of life,
a more true and more nature infused way of life. Yeah,
like not a litigious society. And I think the real
heroes of this film are those helicopter pilots, you know,
(25:34):
Mark and Tim and John, who all took it upon
themselves as you say they You know, the thing about
this island, when you're in the mainland, in the town
closes Sakatani, you see it like it's out there it's
you know, it's in sight. I mean it's forty five kilometers,
but you can see it and it's sort of always
(25:55):
there looking at you and you're looking out it in
and so you that, you know, people could it was
beautiful day. People saw it when it erupt him, right,
and so they saw it and they just they were
they had helicopters and there and Mark Laws like, I'm
getting on my helicopter, I'm going out there. I appreciate
if there's somebody who's been a fixed wing who can communicate,
(26:16):
because there's no communication on the island. So to communicate
to the other authorities, you have to have a plane
circling above. Oh wow, So then that's a fixed wing
as an airplane. So because I got it, yeah, I
did that myself. Thank you. I just did a visual
(26:37):
flying wings with good good. I know you think visually, Rosie.
So I'm trying to help you out anyway. So that's
circling above, right, And then Mark, who was on the
helicopter with Tim who was on another helicopter on the ground,
could communicate to John who's circling, and then John can
communicate to the authorities. So they had, you know, and
(27:00):
it wasn't. I mean, you know, Mark, Mark, it's such
a New Zealand thing in my mind. But Mark was like,
I didn't ask anybody to come. I just told everybody
I was going right, and if they chose to come,
they could choose to come, But I wasn't going to
ask anybody to go out there, right. How great people
did show up, yes, So then these three guys kind
(27:21):
of show up, and the more actually ultimately help. But
you know, when they go to this island, and meanwhile
we find out that the authorities who are frankly in
a better position because they have the helicopters and the
medical professionals who can really help people on the ground.
Once you know, Mark Law is now on the island,
(27:42):
the thing's still erupting, you know, and it's still like
it's like not a conducive environment to be navigating, or
you can't really see, and there's so much steam and
it's really hot you can't really breathe, and you know,
it's a tough environment. And then he finds out and
he's sort of finding people and more people and more people,
(28:02):
and he's kind of getting them comfortable enough for the
authorities to come. And then they get the word that
the authorities have decided it's too dangerous and they're not
going to send Can you believe that? That's hard to believe.
It reminds me of your other documentary, The Last Days
of Vietnam Vietnam, Yes, it was. There was a similar
storytelling in both that there was Richard Armitage who said,
(28:23):
I will not leave these people in the water, and
he took all of these people who are trying to
escape onto his navy ship. That was a phenomenal dock
that you did. Thank you. I love a little your documentary.
I do. I do so this one since I watched it,
I've watched it a couple of times because I knew
I was going to talk to you, and I also
(28:45):
I have been interested in following people who say they
were there now, and I was like, well, why wasn't
that person in the dock? You went to people who
weren't interested, or you didn't feel there was enough time
for each story, or um. It was a combination. Again.
You know, I didn't want to pressure anybody who didn't
want to tell their story to tell their stories. So
(29:07):
it was it was sort of a Mark Law approach,
like we're doing this, We would love to talk to
you if if you want to be included, but it's
an extraordinarily you know, traumatic events that they've gone through,
and so I don't want to add to that, you know,
And I think for some people it can be I
don't want to say therapeutic, but I think that it
(29:29):
can be helpful or to tell their story to feel
like they're being heard. And then I do think, I mean,
I don't want to project on to everybody what their
own experiences, but I do think that largely having talked
to many of the folks who were on the island
and went through this and shared their story with us,
(29:49):
that the response to the film and the fact that
so many people I have seen the film and that
it was you know it was it was number one
film on Netflix, World World, why not just documentary like
film during Christmas week? Right, like what right? That's when
I saw it. Yeah, it's like crazy, unexpected, and I
(30:13):
just and I think they there was so much love
for them and so much admiration sad hours express as
social media when nuts and everybody was you know, so
I think to be heard, to know that your story,
like people understand your story on some level not so
(30:35):
it's you know, I think it's been positive. And then
I think for a lot of them, many of them
also say, like it's nice that if somebody asked me
about my story, I can say, go watch the film, right, Like,
they don't have to actually tell their story to everybody,
and they don't have to be rude about it. They
can just say, go watch the film and then you
can see the story and I don't have to tell
(30:57):
you every single person because it's and I do you know,
I am very aware that even the telling of the
story can be triggering and can go either way. It
can be positive or negative. And so we also, you know,
with the supportive Netflix provided therapeutic support for folks are
(31:19):
telling their story or in the aftermath. So um, anyway,
you know, we tried to to be conscious of really
appreciating just what it takes to go back and and
and you know too for these interviews to really translate
(31:41):
like you're you know, when you're talking to somebody, if
they're just saying words versus like in the experience of
what they're going through. And all of these people were
like so in the you know, like I'm crying talking
to them. You know, it's so powerful. I mean, really,
(32:01):
with all these films that I've made, the interviews that
I did for the Volcano were really among the most
poignant and powerful and like impactful to me and to
me I was watching it and I was so emotionally
connected to the whole thing. And I remember when we
had dinner, you said, sometimes when you do a documentary,
(32:23):
you have to worry that is the pain worth the
resolve or the result? The result? Right is it will
you sit through this documentary or would it be too painful?
And I felt like it was the opposite. It was
almost like the joy was as abundant as the grief
and the pain. That's nice of you to say it,
(32:44):
but it was a balance. But that's my experience too.
I Mean I I felt both, and every single interview
I did, I was like crying and grieving and then
just celebratory and joyful and so humbled and overwhelmed by
just the ability to kind of endure through this stuff
(33:09):
and to keep going, you know, to choose to choose
in you know, being in this remote island. I mean,
there's also the story that the beautiful American couple who
are there on their honeymoon, you know, and they're there.
They have this very sweet moment where I'm interviewing them
(33:32):
and you know, their their bodies are covered with burns
and I'm talking to them, and at the end of
the interview, Lauren, the wife, says, you know, she she says,
when we were when we were in the moment of
the eruption, we fell on each other, and I remember
just feeling like I want I'm going to die here,
(33:54):
and I want to die in Matt's arms, and and
they were holding each other, and the place where they're
holding each other on their arms is the only place
that's not burned on their arms, and it's the only
place where they have full movement because they were holding
each other and protecting each other, like it's so beautiful
(34:17):
and sweet. And then you know, and she says, this
is the worst experience of my life, but I'm so
much closer to my husband and I love him so
much and we're just going to be together forever. And
then Matt has this sweet little smile, you know, like
She's right, we do and there and it like every
(34:38):
time I watch it, it like makes me tear Yeah,
it makes me tear up too. The thing that I
loved about their relationship was how she was not into it,
not the relationship, the excursion. She was like, oh, honey,
we have to go. What if it erupts? He says,
He's not gonna erupt? You kidding me this, you know.
And he was very much an adventurer and she was
very much not. I think one of the lines he
(35:00):
said was, you know, complaining about things was pretty typical.
You know. So she's like an erotic wife, you know,
saying you know, I don't want to do this, and
then the worst of the worst happens and they still
get through it. Yeah. Well, she's relatable in that way,
I think for a lot of people who are like,
you know, she's like, I like to go on a
beach and neat a book. Well, that's exactly me, exactly.
(35:23):
I don't want to go on anything adventurous. Yeah, that
could possibly hurt me. Yeah. Well anyway, So so I
think these things are also you know, you identify and
you identify, well, you know, you're in New Zealand and
there's like a cool volcano to go, say what I
sign up for that? Sure? Yeah, maybe, you know, not me,
No way I would be in the hotel going. I
(35:46):
wonder if I could watch wind Loser draw today. You know,
I don't know now what are you working on next?
Because this is what I love about documentary filmmakers. They
have five or ten or fifteen ideas. But is there
anything coming up? But I'm I'm doing a film right
now for HBO about Synanon, which is which I do
(36:08):
not know about. Yeah, a lot of people don't. Most
people don't, but it's it's a fascinating story about It
was the first drug treatment program that was started in
the United States in nineteen fifty eight. But a guy
named Chuck D. Trick, he was in AA, and he
went to AA meetings and he didn't like the fact
(36:30):
that people just told their stories and you couldn't call
them out on their bologny got it. He had allegedly
witnessed somebody at an AA meeting who had talked about
being in you know, an AA for three years, and
he had just seen the guy walk out of a
liquor store like two weeks before, and so he wanted
(36:50):
to call him out but couldn't. Anyway, so he started
these AA meetings in his house and it was a
free for all. Well and then people would call each
other out, and people loved it. And then for the
first time, as a drug addict, you couldn't go to AA.
But drug addicts started coming to his meetings and he
(37:11):
would allow them, and then they said can we stay here?
And he was like, well sure we can. Just you know,
when he got a storefront, put some couches in, they
would crash out on the couches, and then they would
stay longer and longer, and there were more and more
of them, and ultimately expanded Got the brought the del
Mar Hotel and expanded up into northern California and then
(37:37):
kind of turned into a lifestyle community. Did they follow
the twelve steps or whether it just a whole new
take on sobriety. It was really the beginning of the
therapeutic community. This was the first therapeutic community, and then
a bunch of therapeutic communities like Phoenix House and others
spawned out of people who went to Cinnanon. Got It,
(37:58):
so all of those basically you can connect back to Cinnanon.
And did it eventually become a cult? Yes? And are
you deep in it or you just deep in it? Yeah?
I'm deep in it. Okaye one question about your Volcano doc.
You have Hans zimmer to the score to the Volcano movie.
How did that come about. It's a very funny story
(38:20):
because we got into some situation, um where Netflix wanted
the film delivered a few months earlier than our original schedule,
which isn't a note that you necessarily want. Thank you,
no thanks, But in any case, um, we were accommodating,
(38:42):
and but our composer wasn't able to adjust to the
new schedule, so we had to get a new composer.
And so you just picked like the biggest oscar winner
in the world, if they go. So I had played
tennis the morning before with his ex wife, who's lovely, okay,
And I thought, well, i don't know what their relationship is,
(39:04):
but I'm going to call her and see if she
still has his cell phone number, which I did and
she did, and they feel a lovely relationship. And so
I called him like cold called, Oh my god, I
mean really now, it was audacious, but he was so lovely,
and I said, of course, I'm not asking you to
(39:26):
be involved. I just thought maybe you would know somebody
or because you I'm I'm in this bind and you know,
you're really the greatest thing ever. So um he said, uh,
you know, I'm performing for the Queen tonight and I've
got this film. And I was like, okay, if you're
too big, he's just send it to me and I'll
look at it. So I send it to him. He
(39:47):
calls me the next morning. Wow, I love and he says,
my god, this is so great. That's what I thought
about the film too. It's so great. I'm in and
and well you shocked, yes, yes, yes, And and we
worked with a composer who was brilliant, Steve Mazzarro, who
(40:08):
works with him and with Hans. Hans was on every
call and would give these notes and you know, and
he's so interesting because he really approaches the score like
a film, right. He's like, Okay, this is what this
score needs to do, and this is what it says,
and this is you know, it's like a narrative. The
beginning's got to be this, and the middle's gotta be this.
(40:29):
The ending's got to land like this, and we you know,
and you know, he's just delivered. And there's so many
like the mantra with documentaries is like, Okay, the music
needs to not interfere and be in the background and
you don't want to be aware of it. And he's
like ba boom right right exactly, I am here and
(40:52):
I have something to say and I'm gonna say it.
And it's awesome. Yeah, it really is. And it really
lifts it to a whole other level. I mean that
without it, it wouldn't have done what it did, but
what it's still doing. Yeah, but you know, music plays
a huge, huge, huge role. So I'm eternally grateful to him.
And he's you know, he's just lovely and a super decent,
(41:16):
committed guy. And well, Hans Zimmer, thank you very much
for putting your stamp on that. Now tell me about
this Climate Emergency Fund. What is going on with this
because from all knowledgeable scientists, it's already too late. Yeah, well,
thank you for asking, because I'm very proud of our
(41:36):
Climate Emergency Fund. First of all, I would say it's
not too late, and most scientists don't think it's quite
too late. But we're very very close. We have another
like four or five years and then it becomes too late.
So we still have time, but we've got to focus
on it. So I started the Climate Emergency Fund about Well,
(41:59):
it was right up to the Wolsey Fire in twenty nineteen,
which I lived through here in California and had to
you know, flee my house with my husband and my
kids and our three dogs and two goats and towardoise
all like anyway, So that was its own experience. And
(42:21):
then I had also finished the film about NASA, who's
done all of the really most of the research on
climate and those scientists all said, please make this film
focused on climate change, because we are on a train
wreck and it's not a question of if, it's a
question of when. And then at the same time, the
(42:43):
IPCC report came out, the International Group of Scientists saying
we have ten years to figure this out and otherwise
it's going to be too late. So I felt like
there was, you know, such an urgency and a lot
of the traditional environmental groups were or staying on their
same path, and that we needed to sound the alarm,
(43:05):
yes in a big way, and so how are we
going to do this? And my own you know feeling
about kind of looking back at history when you saw
significant change happen in this country, and beyond that, nothing
ever happened with how people getting into the streets and
causing disruption. And so the idea of the Climate Emergency
(43:29):
Fund is for the first time really to finance activism,
to support disruption, non violent disruption. And so that's what
we do, and we support climate activists all over the world.
When I came up with this idea with my friend
(43:50):
Trevor Nielsen, we went out to funders and most of
them either hung up or you know, dissuaded me from
doing this, and none of them gave me money until like,
we called Eileen Getty and we told her about the
idea and at the end of the call she said,
I'll give you five hundred thousand dollars. I enjoy that woman. Yeah,
(44:12):
she's fantastic. And then she's since joined our board and
continues to write checks and write articles and be at
the forefront and very brave and courageous on this issue.
We recently were supported by Adam McKay, director of Yes,
Don't Look Up, which was the greatest film, which was
(44:34):
such a great film, and he said he is giving
us four million dollars. Oh my god, doesn't that just
He joined our board And so it's and it's a
very small board. There's there's maybe five of us on
the board, and we are out there supporting these activists
who are causing disruption both in this country, in England,
(44:57):
in Africa and Australia and New Zealand, just to get
the attention out there. Yeah, and they're you know, they're fantastic.
And you know there are a lot of the activists
like who we're targeting center a mansion and duct taping
themselves to his door, bringing attention to his own oil
(45:18):
fields and whatnot. You know, we support all of those acts. Anyway,
It's it's an exciting initiative. And where how can people
get involved? People who are listening? I mean, really, what
we're doing is we raise money and then we give
it to the activists. So if in my opinion, right now,
you should either be getting arrested or supporting people who
are getting arrested, so you can look at the Climate
(45:39):
Emergency Fund website to find opportunities to do so. And
if you don't want to get arrested, or if you
do want to get arrested and have fifteen dollars in
your pocket or five million dollars in your pocket, I
think it's worth supporting these activists because I agree listen.
It's a joy to know you. It's a joy to
know you. All right, Rory ken It's Rory Kennedy. And
(46:01):
watch her doc on Netflix. Would you don't go anywhere?
We're not done yet, Okay, so now we have questions
(46:28):
from viewers like you. Take a listen. Hi there, Rosie.
My name is Andrew. I am a writer and comedian
in la I am so thrilled that the world has
been waiting with bated breath for you to enter the
podcast market. I really do consider you one of the
greatest interviewers and broadcasters the world has ever known, So
this is very exciting. My question would be that, and so,
(46:49):
first of all, thank you so much for this trickle
of clips from the Rosy Show that you've been releasing
online on your YouTube channel. It has been an amazing
It has been an amazing surprise on my new feed
whenever I do go on and I'm wondering the streisand
interview an episode notwithstanding, because I know you'd say that,
what has been the interview that you have revisited after
(47:12):
all this time that has really surprised you in some way?
And what was the most difficult one in all of
that hindsight anyway, So thrilled you're back again. Thank you
so much for all you do. You're a warrior and
keep doing it. Thank you, Thank you so much, first
of all for your kindness. It's very, very sweet, and
I appreciate it for real. I think that Joni Mitchell
(47:35):
was probably the best interview for me emotionally. Yeah, you know,
I grew up with her lyrics sort of defining my
emotional truths, and I think she's the best living lyricist,
poet artist. She really moves me like no one else.
(47:59):
And it's been one of the greatest joys of my
life to get to be her friend, or to know her,
to have interviewed her, to be in her orbit. As
I say, she's an amazing woman. And you know, there
were people that I invited on the show that maybe
Warner Brothers was like, I don't want to have her.
Why would anybody? You know? Like Rosemary Clooney, that's another
one I think of. I loved every time Rosemary Clooney
(48:22):
was on my show. What an amazing woman. And I
grew up listening to her music, and you know, it's
just wild when you get to meet your heroes and
everyone from streisand to Joni Mitchell, to Rosemary Clooney and
everyone in between. It's been a wonderful, wonderful reality that
I got to do that show for six years and
(48:43):
with so many memories and so many great artists. And
thank you for asking I. We're going to keep those
Rosy O'donald clips coming on YouTube, so thanks for that too.
I appreciate it. So next week is my friend Jennifer Lewis,
the Saint Lewis Lewis's you know, she is the mother
of Black Hollywood. She is epic in Blackish, and she's
(49:07):
unbelievable and I've so loved that for you, which is
a wonderful show with Molly Shannon and Jennifer Lewis and
a wonderful cast of women. So look at that show
if you get a chance, would you Jennifer Lewis? Next
week on Onward with Rosio Donn
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