April 2, 2025 • 30 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, authors Bob Drury and Tom Clavin give Chief Red Cloud the recognition he deserves, sharing the story from their New York Times bestseller, The Heart of Everything That Is.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is our American stories. The great Sioux warrior statesman
Red Cloud, was the only American Indian in history to
defeat the United States Army in a war, forcing the
government to sue for peace on his terms. Bob Drury
and Tom Claven have finally given the little known Red
Cloud the recognition he deserves with their New York Times
(00:35):
bestseller The Heart of Everything. That is the untold story
of Red Cloud, an American legend. Here's Bob and Tom
to share the story with us. Beginning with Bob.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
This book, it's basically an untold story until now about
how one man created an empire, if you will, on
the high Plains. At one point, Red Cloud's territory included
about one fifth of what is today the contiguous United States,
(01:10):
and no one before, we don't think, really knew what
was going on in that great swath of territory bounded
by the Missouri Rivers, the Mississippi River, and the Rockies
and cartographers, early cartographers, despite Lewis and Clark's exploration, they
just labeled it the Great American Desert. And no one
(01:32):
knew how Red Cloud had consolidated this empire. Now, of course,
when he fought his war and won his war against
the United States, the only American Indians ever win a war,
not a battle, a war against the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
People certainly knew.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Who he was, but we were a little trepidacious when
we first started this book. Obviously there was no one
left from the nineteenth century. But what we did find
is that our forebears were such literate people. We went
into this expecting maybe we'd get some after action reports
from the army when the soldiers started moving west, maybe
(02:09):
the officers, maybe an officer's wife might have kept a journal.
As it turns out, every teamster's wife kept a diary.
And we found all these and letters and Tom he'll
explain to you. At some of these university libraries and
historical centers they would bring out a journal in a
plexic glass case and you had to turn the pages
(02:30):
with tongs because your oil from your fingers would destroy
the vellum. I guess it was written on. And there
were letters from twelve year old girls who had passed
the Oregon train. You know, Paul was killed last year
by the Indians first train.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
In this year.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Said they dug up his grave. Maybe it was wolves,
but we think it might have been Indians again, that
kind of stuff. So we actually felt like we were
interviewing people for this book. As far fetched as that
might sound, we got into it so much that we
felt we were living the lives with these people that said,
I'm going to have to give you a little what
we call the dreaded backstory, because you really can't understand
(03:05):
Red Cloud without understanding the Sioux Nation. So what we
do know what was to become the pre Columbian Sioux Nation.
It was seven tribes, the tribes of the Seven Council Fires.
They followed the Mississippi Valley north and they settled in Minnesota.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Now in Minnesota, they were the.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Baddest Indians in the Great Lake region and for centuries
they just made unending war on their predominantly Algonquin neighbors,
the Creed, the Chippewa, and they were vicious. They war
was their ethos. Unlike other tribes. They had no non
violent culture. They did not make pots, they did not
grow food, they did not even paint anything on their
(03:50):
tepees or their shields. War was the reason for being.
And the first Europeans, mostly French, who looked at the Sioux,
I mean they were amediately reminded of the Norse berserkers,
or the Hunts or the Mongols.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
The Sioux lived to make war.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
That was their ethos, and they were good at it,
and they were real good at it in for centuries,
for hundreds of years, they just dominated the region. But
then what happened was when the English trading ships started
to come into Hudson Bay, and the Cree and the
Chippewahu lived closer to the bay began trading.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Pelts for guns, and the tables turned.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Once the Sioux had been the hunter, now they were
the hunted. Once they had extolled violence for a violence. Say,
see what the Europeans didn't understand watching in particular the Sioux,
but the American Indian culture in general, was it wasn't
violence for violence sake. Yes, they fought wars to gain
territory and to bring home booty. But also the old
(04:49):
cliche the happy hunting ground. The Sioux and most of
the plane stripes for that matter, really believed that there
was an afterlife that was a happy hunting ground, and
it was filled with clear running streams and game as
far as you can see, a buffalo and elk and
deer an antelope and beautiful maidens just waiting to be taken.
(05:10):
But what happened was there they believed that you went
to this afterlife in the same way you left the earth.
So what the Europeans didn't understand about the scalpings and
about the mutilations, And if you went to the if
your enemy went to the happy honting ground with no
eyes to see how beautiful it was, if he went
(05:31):
with no arms to draw back a bowstring, if he
went with no penis to take advantage of these comely maidens,
well then you had he had suffered two indignities at
your hands, one here on Earth and one there.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
And that's what a lot of this was all about.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
When the Europeans came down, of course, they didn't understand
this at all, and they started trading guns with the
other Indians, and the other Indians began hunting the Sioux,
who were still using prehistoric tools flintlock knives, flintlock arrowheads.
They drove the Sioux into the swamps of Minnesota, and
finally their territory just became so compromised that they had
a choice, an existential choice. They either would die or
(06:08):
they had to step out onto the prairie. They ended
up stepping out onto the prairie. Even on the prairie
they were still even though they kept up their warlike ethos,
but they were still the tribes. We don't think of
the Mandans Arik Karraz de Reees, the omahas the Otos.
They were kicking the siouxs. But because these tribes were
(06:29):
mounted and the Sioux were not yet mounted. And one Cheyenne,
one regal Cheyenne I, described the Sioux as scraggly, lce
ridden band begging for handouts.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
That's how bad it was. But that all changed again.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
The worm turned yet again when the English started coming
down first the Minnesota River and then the Missouri River
and establishing trade fairs. Now they were on the edge
of Sioux the Northman Sioux territory, and the Sioux were
the ones the first tribes to get weapons, to get guns,
to get shot, to get ammunition, to get iron pots
(07:05):
that they would break into arrowheads. Sooner or later, the
Sioux took their revenge on the smaller tribes that had
been almost picking them apart, the Mandan Zeoto's, the Rees.
And then something happened that changed the course of Western
history the Spanish. I love this part of the book,
(07:29):
and I love this story. But I won't go too
off course here, but I will say when the Spanish
brought the tough little mustang into South America and Mexico,
it was a match.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Made in heaven.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Unlike the big, lumbering Northern European war horses or plow horses,
these mustangs had started out on the Central Asian steps
and had followed the trade routes through the Mid East
along northern Africa, had interbred with desert horses, and when
the Moors invaded Spain, they came over with these tough
(08:01):
little months and they were right at home on the
Andalusian plane. They could run forever, they could eat weed,
they could eat bark, and once again, when the Spanish
brought them to the New World, they were right at
home in the New World. What happened was is the Spanish,
as they conquered and forcibly converted the Indians up into
(08:22):
what is now the United States, they made deals with them.
You worship our God, who you don't understand, We're basically
going to enslave you.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You grow our crops, but in exchange we have horses.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And we're going to protect you from your age old
enemy of the Apache. Well, the Apache began raiding hacienders
and rancheros and they got horses. They didn't know how
if an Apache would ride a horse will have died
and he would eat it, so they didn't know how.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
To breed it.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
But this gave them room to further out their raids,
and they started raiding the pueblo. And the Pueblos say, Anywaynute,
you enslaved us. You're making us worship some Christian god
we know nothing about, and you're into the dealers to
protect us from the Apache. You can't even do that now.
So in sixteen eighty the Pueblo rose and they drove
(09:08):
the Spanish back into Old Mexico. And the Spanish ran
so fast they left everything behind. So the Pueblo they
ate the cattle, they ate the sheep, but they weren't
a horse tribe, and they just.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Let the horses go.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
And this was the beginning of the great horse expansion
of the United the northern hemisphere of the United States.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And you're listening to Bob Drury and you'll be hearing
the story, the continuing story of Red Cloud, the New
York Times bestseller The Heart of Everything, That is the
untold story of Red Cloud, an American legend. The story
continues here on our American stories, and we continue with
(10:10):
our American stories and with Bob Drury and Tom claven
and they're telling the untold story of Red Cloud. Let's
continue with Bob.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And so the horse gradually made its way along once
again ancient trade routes north. The Comanche were the first
true true horsemen on the plains. They were a scraggly
tribe too, that had come out of the Wind River
Range in Wyoming. But they learned how to breed horses.
They made rudimentary saddles. They were Sam Winds Empire The
(10:40):
Summer Moon, which is a tremendous book.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Tom and I argue with Sam about who were better
horsemen to commands. Hear the Sioux.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I think if you go by territory a long you
have to have I think you have to go with
the Sioux. At least that's what we tell Sam. But
the horses made their way north of Kiowa and Kansas
what is today Kansas got them the Poonee Nebraska all
the way up to the Cree in Canada and of course,
the Cheyenne, the Sioux, the Crow, the old acquired horses.
The Sioux just took to the horse naturally, and much
(11:09):
like the early Apache raids, now they could spread out more.
They conquered what remnants of the smaller tribes, the OTO's,
the Rees, the Mandans, and then they took on the
big boys. And they pushed the Pawnee out. They pushed
the Kiowa out of the Black Hills. They pushed the
Crow out of the Powdered River country and up into
(11:30):
the Rockies. They controlled basically parts of months from Minnesota
to Montana, to the Great Salt Lake and down to.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Lower Colorado.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Even it was just it was an empire, but the
Sioux were still seven nations, seven tribes. Sitting Bull, I'm
sure you've all heard of he was a hunk. Papa
Crazy Horse was an Oglala. Red Cloud himself had an
Oglala mother and a brutal father. So these seven tribes
were further scattered into the fractious.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Bands and clans.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
They all spoke the same language and they all had
the same culture, but they were not united, and they
wouldn't fight each other. But they weren't enemies, but they
weren't friendly towards each other. They were just waiting for someone,
if someone would come along and unite them. So in
eighteen twenty one, on the banks of Bluewater Creek and
(12:24):
what is now the Stubby Little Panhandle of Nebraska, two
nights before, a meteor had shot through the sky left
a giant, a red swathe of cloud across the sky.
And in eighteen twenty one, by the banks of Bluewater Creek,
a baby was born and his father named him Red Cloud.
And Red Cloud was the man who would eventually unite
(12:47):
these people.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Tom will tell you about that.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
As Bob just said, Red Cloud was born in May
of eighteen twenty one. And there's so many stories that
we've heard of in history of ple men and women
who had to have very difficult childhoods and had to
rise above them, and the resiliency and the strength that
they gained from their experiences made them into leaders, made
(13:12):
them tougher than some of their rivals. And that was
certainly Red Cloud's situation. He was born in eighteen twenty one.
His mother was called Walks as she thinks. He had
a younger brother, little Spider. Eventually, when Red Cloud was
only five years old, his father died. And his father
didn't die of a war or an accident or anything like.
He died of alcoholism. So we're talking about the mid
(13:35):
eighteen twenties and here's a Sioux man dying of alcohololism.
And when the traders, some of the explorers, but the traders,
some of the early migrants, the people who are working
their way west. There were three powerful diseases they brought
with them smallpox, cholera, and alcohol. And the Indians did
(13:56):
not have any immunity to any of these diseases. They
were felled by the hundreds and Red Cloud thus had
to grow up without a father. A advantage he had
is that his mother went back to her Oglala band
that was run by the headman.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
There was a man named Old Smoke who she called brother.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Now we don't know were they biologically brothers or was
that just the relationship that they had or brother and
sister relationship, But in any case, Old Smoke took in
this woman and her two young.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Fatherless children.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
Red Cloud was not given anything, you know, he didn't
have a father who was going to bring him up
the ladder, so to speak, like Crazy Horse had like
sitting bull would have.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
So he had to earn everything.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
He had to become the best rider, he had to
become the best hunter. Eventually had to become the best warrior.
And over time, even when he was a teenager. You know,
there's a section in the book where we talk about
he went into his first battle when he was sixteen
years old, and there.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Was great excitement in the village.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
This war party was being put together because for the
first time, Red Cloud was putting on the war paint
and getting ready for battle. And you know, the people
in the village were saying, red Cloud comes, Red Cloud comes.
As he made his way on his horse to join
this war party. So at a very early age, he
showed qualities and talents that were superior to most of
(15:20):
the people in his tribe. In the eighteen thirties eighteen forties,
he became he rose up the ranks, he became a leader,
he became a great warrior, and being a warrior, was
a great warrior was very important because we've sort of
likened it to what was going on in the Great
Plains at the time.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
It was sort of like gang warfare.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
You know, the tribes, the Sue, the Arapaho, the Cheyenne,
the Pawnee, the crow. They were almost always at war
with each other. And it wasn't just a war like, Okay,
we want to defeat you and conquer you. It was well,
we want this hunting ground. Okay, we know it belongs
to you, but not for long. Look out here we come.
(16:02):
And so there was constant fighting to steal horses, to
steal lands. Obviously, if you had the best hunting ground,
your tribe had a better chance of survival because they
were going to be more buffalo, they were going to
be more elk, they were going to be more antelope.
And one of the things that Red Cloud he displayed
not only great courage and great strength, he demonstrated great
(16:24):
intelligence and empathy. When he came back from a successful
hunting raid, for example, he didn't just keep everything for himself.
He made sure that the elders got some of what
he brought back. He made sure that some families that
was struggling to take care of themselves got some of
his bounty that he brought back. He made sure the
(16:45):
people who were in power and the tribe, Old Smoke
and the other elders that they were taken care of.
And in this way, he also started to gain a
kind of respect that he might otherwise have gotten being
a fatherless person. So into the eighteen fifties he began
to be viewed by the Oglalas as not chief. And
(17:08):
I think that's important one of the more interesting things
that we found out there was no chief. You know,
we're used to somebody who is an authority in Native
American circles being a chief, but that was actually a
white man invention. Red Cloud was not a chief, but
he became like the most powerful warrior and the head
(17:30):
of their warrior society, and he was observing what was
going on. Even though the tribes spent most of their
time fighting each other, they couldn't help noticing that there
were more and more.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
White people showing up.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Fort Laramie was probably the most prominent fort in that part,
you know, on Missouri and west of the Missouri, and
it would be a way station as people coming from
the east would stop and force Fort Laramie. They would
pick up more people, drop off some people, get supplies,
drop off supplies, change work or whatever, and then they
would go on. That's what the Oregon Trail was about.
They would be going on to Oregon or they would
(18:05):
be going up to other places. Certainly, when gold was
discovered in California, the immigration accelerated across to the west,
going through and the Red Cloud could see that the
increase in population of people coming across the territory was
doing several things.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And you're listening to Bob Drury and Tom Claven telling
the story of Red Cloud and that mention of white people,
the original white guys poking around in this neck of
the woods after the Louisiana purchase was, of course, Lewis
and Clark, and we tell their story well. Clay Jenkinson
tells their story in our multi part series approaching forty parts,
(18:46):
the most Epic road Trip ever, the Story of Lewis
and Clark, And go to our American Stories dot com
and plug it in, download it if you're taking a
long family trip. Nobody tells the story of Lewis and
Clark better than Clay and Clay Jenkinson is on the
History Channel. You see him all the time, as do
you see Bob and Tom. And when we come back,
(19:09):
more of this remarkable story from their New York Times
bestseller The Heart of Everything That Is The Untold Story
of Red Cloud, an American legend continues here on our
American stories, and we continue with our American stories and
(19:41):
Bob Drury and Tom Claven telling the story of Red Cloud,
an American legend. Let's return to the story.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
Red Cloud could see that the increase in population of
people coming across the territory was doing several things. One
was they were taking a big share of the Buffalo.
He also, Red Cloud anticipated that they were going to
want to go through and perhaps even occupy the Black Hills.
(20:11):
And for those who wonder and don't know the title
of our book, the heart of everything that is. The
sue name for the Black Hills was Pahasappa, and to them,
translated is the heart of everything that is. The Black
Hills was the heart of their existence. That's where they
believe their ancestors came from. And it was sacred land
to them, and it certainly could not be given away,
(20:34):
It could not certainly just simply be occupied, could not
be taken advantage of by the white explorers and settlers
and the army. Certainly, but he saw that coming. He
saw this clash. You know, Bob mentioned the word empire
before you know, there was this growing empire of the east,
and there was this empire that Red Cloud was basically
had become the head of because he was this intelligent,
(20:57):
charismatic man, and other Indians and even of the tribes
respected him. Some feared him, but they respected him. And
he could see that they were going to clash against
each other. Something interrupted what he saw, and that was
the Civil War. When the Civil War broke out in
eighteen sixty one, obviously you couldn't have the kind of
(21:17):
forts and army presence in the West that you had
because as many everybody was needed back east, and it
was kind of a respite there and it lasted eighteen
sixty one to eighteen sixty five. And when the Civil
War ended, suddenly there was a big change because this
sense of manifest destiny could go right back into full swing,
(21:39):
and the enormous increase of people started making their way
west again, and the whole coveting of the Great Plains
and the Black Hills began all over again.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
So I'll turn it back over to Bob.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
And during the Civil War, iiO gold was being discovered
all over.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
The West, Montana, Idaho, the Front Range in Colorado, and
so the miners started pouring in in Red Cloud's lifetime,
I think there were four treaties that were broken. The
Whites just kept coming say, okay, we're going to stop here,
we'll sign a treaty, we'll touch the pen. Gold would
be discovered somewhere and said, oh, well, now that treaty
didn't count, here's the new one. And Red Cloud was like,
(22:14):
he didn't trust the Whites as far as he could
throw them, But with all this gold being discovered all
over the West, he knew it was inevitable that he
was going to.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Have to fight.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
So he started attacking the miners, and he started attacking
the wagon trains on the Oregon Trail, on the in
cooperation with During this hiatus that Tom talked about, he
had become such a great name in the planes that
even though he was an Noglala, warriors from other Sioux
bands wanted to ride with him. Hunk Papas would ride
(22:44):
in with him and say, we want to ride with you,
hunt with you, fight with you. Rules would come in,
sans arcs would come in, and so he had developed
kind of this inter tribal facility that now he was
going to use and turn it on the Whites. And
what he had done that no Indian had ever done before.
He had also co opted other tribes, the Cheyenne, the Rapaho,
(23:08):
some Shoshone. These tribes would fight with the Sioux. This
had never happened before. Washington, the officials back east and
the War Department, they had never They had fought seven
Oles in Florida, they had fought Mohawks, they had fought Jerokee,
but they had never fought multiple tribes at once. And
so Red Cloud's war was a gorilla war. And he
(23:29):
would attack and pick off a wagon train here, a
supply train there, a mail train here. So the miners,
of course, and the settlers who were passing through appealed
to Washington, who started to send soldiers west.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Civil war was over. We're going to send our soldiers.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Our battle hardened soldiers to pick off these with these savages.
And Red Cloud was winning these skirmishes, and the more
soldiers that came out, the more Indians were attracted to
his warrior fiefdom, so to speak. Red Cloud would set
up three different attacks on a fort here, on a
supply train two hundred miles away, and then on a
(24:07):
wagon train three hundred miles away from that. This has
never happened before, and he would attack, and instead of celebrating,
as was the American Indian custom and habit, he would
attack the next day and the day after that, and
then his warriors would just disappear into the planes. It
was true guerrilla warfare, and we didn't know how to
handle it. So we sent out more and more soldiers.
(24:28):
They had seen some heart, some heart fighting in the
Civil War, but they weren't used to coming across a
supply train where everyone's penis had been hacked off. Eyeballs
gouged out, brains gouged out. We think we found Actually
I should credit Tom with this. Tom found a journal,
and it might be the first time US soldiers making
a pact to kill each other rather than be captured
(24:50):
by the Indians.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I mean, this is how far in this kind of
warfare was to them.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So finally General Grant and General Sherman said enough is enough.
We're going to send out an army to fight Red Cloud. Well,
Red Cloud wasn't going to fight their army on the
European terms or on the Civil War terms that they wanted,
so they sent out thousands of mounted infantry. From the movies,
we all think it's cavalry John Wayne's cavalry. It was
(25:15):
all mounted infantry who these guys were currently learning how
to ride on the fly, and.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
That was another advantage the Sioux had.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So in the summer of eighteen sixty five alone, three
thousand soldiers combed combed the west looking for Red Cloud,
and he would attack them and they could never find him.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And then in.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Eighteen sixty six, it's hard charging Captain Captain Fetterman, Sherman's
hand picked man. Go find me Red Cloud, kill him,
and kill every Sioux male over the age of twelve. Well,
Fetterman gets out there and he's of the opinion, you know,
these are Indians, these are savages. Pre store I could
(25:53):
ride through the entire Sioux nation with eighty men, and
he tried to do that. He took out eighty one
men one day and Ride Cloud laid a trap for him,
and Fetterman rode right into it, and everyone Fetterman included
in his command were killed. Now, the Americans called it
a massacre. The suit called it a fight. It was
a fair fight. We beat these guys, we killed him.
(26:14):
But that was the beginning of what came to be
known as Red Cloud's War.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Now, Red Cloud's War.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Would go on for another two years, and there were
many many more fettermans sent out to capture Red Cloud.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
And there were many many more.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
American soldiers who were killed, while Red Cloud still remained
uncaptured and undead.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
So finally, after two years, we needed the gold. I mean,
we were living.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
The United States had built up such a national debt
during the Civil War. We said, we'll do any Red
Cloud come in, what do you want, We'll have another treaty.
We promise we'll keep this treaty. We know we've broken
a dozen before. We promise we'll keep this one. Just
tell us what you want. And Red Cloud had one demand,
and it was a pretty big demand, and he gave
(27:00):
it to Washington representatives. They're like, huh, and so would
Washington meet Red Cloud's demand or would they not?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
This was the key to Red Cloud's War.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
The treaty that Red Clouds signed in eighteen sixty eight
to end the war was still in effect. When gold
was discovered in the Black Hills, Miners were prospectors were
flood trying to flood into the Black Hills. For a
while the US government made some attempt to keep them out,
but they realized, you know, we're not going to be
(27:31):
able to do that, so they appointed got an expedition
together that was headed by George Armstrong Custer, who went
in there and there was no battle. There was no resistance,
no opposition put up to Custer going in there. But
what was happening is his invasion, so to speak, at
the Black Hills did Bill momentum under the leadership of
(27:53):
Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse that they have to stop this,
they have to they have to protect the Black Hills.
Two years later, the result was Little Big Horn and
the deaths of Custer and his command that the hands
of Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, which was a battle
that Red Cloud did not participate in.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Red Cloud had already been to Washington.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, and he had seen the very first place they
took him when he got to this town was to
the Navy yard and showed him to cannons. So when
the white started pouring into the Black Hills, Sitting Bowl
and Crazy Horse said, okay, it's time to fight him again.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
And Red Cloud had kind of honed Crazy Horse.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
He had picked him out as a teenager and made
him his field commander at the age of twenty two
or something, so Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull came back
to Red Clout said, we've got to do it again.
They're coming again. They've broken another treaty. By this time,
Redcott had been to Washington twice, I believe in to
New York. He knew what was on the other side
of the Mississippi River, and he said to Sitting Bowl
and Crazy Horse, he said, no, we can't beat these people.
(28:54):
I'm not going to waste my people. I'm not going
to sacrifice my people's lives. We can't beat these people,
which is why Red Cloud never got involved in the
Custom Fighter.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
And great job as always to Greg Hangler for finding
this story and editing it and getting it to us,
and a special thanks to Bob Drury and to Tom
claven And my goodness, what a read, What a book,
What a story, the heart of everything that is the
untold story of Red Cloud, an American legend. Go to
Amazon or the usual suspects by the book. You won't
(29:23):
put it down. After signing the Treaty of Fort Laramie
in eighteen sixty eight, red Cloud led his people in
the transition to reservation life. In eighteen eighty four, he
and his family, along with five Indian leaders, converted and
were baptized as Catholics by Father Joseph Bushman. Outliving all
other major Lakota leaders of the Indian Wars, Red Cloud
(29:44):
died on Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota in nineteen
oh nine at the age of eighty seven, and was
buried there in the cemetery now bearing his name. And
by the way red Cloud saw the collision of cultures,
there was nothing he could do about it, the original
tragedy of this country, the story that we tell, because
we tell all the stories good and bad about this
(30:06):
great not perfect country, but great country. Here on our
American stories
This is our American stories. The great Sioux warrior statesman
Red Cloud, was the only American Indian in history to
defeat the United States Army in a war, forcing the
government to sue for peace on his terms. Bob Drury
and Tom Claven have finally given the little known Red
Cloud the recognition he deserves with their New York Times
(00:35):
bestseller The Heart of Everything. That is the untold story
of Red Cloud, an American legend. Here's Bob and Tom
to share the story with us. Beginning with Bob.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
This book, it's basically an untold story until now about
how one man created an empire, if you will, on
the high Plains. At one point, Red Cloud's territory included
about one fifth of what is today the contiguous United States,
(01:10):
and no one before, we don't think, really knew what
was going on in that great swath of territory bounded
by the Missouri Rivers, the Mississippi River, and the Rockies
and cartographers, early cartographers, despite Lewis and Clark's exploration, they
just labeled it the Great American Desert. And no one
(01:32):
knew how Red Cloud had consolidated this empire. Now, of course,
when he fought his war and won his war against
the United States, the only American Indians ever win a war,
not a battle, a war against the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
People certainly knew.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Who he was, but we were a little trepidacious when
we first started this book. Obviously there was no one
left from the nineteenth century. But what we did find
is that our forebears were such literate people. We went
into this expecting maybe we'd get some after action reports
from the army when the soldiers started moving west, maybe
(02:09):
the officers, maybe an officer's wife might have kept a journal.
As it turns out, every teamster's wife kept a diary.
And we found all these and letters and Tom he'll
explain to you. At some of these university libraries and
historical centers they would bring out a journal in a
plexic glass case and you had to turn the pages
(02:30):
with tongs because your oil from your fingers would destroy
the vellum. I guess it was written on. And there
were letters from twelve year old girls who had passed
the Oregon train. You know, Paul was killed last year
by the Indians first train.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
In this year.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Said they dug up his grave. Maybe it was wolves,
but we think it might have been Indians again, that
kind of stuff. So we actually felt like we were
interviewing people for this book. As far fetched as that
might sound, we got into it so much that we
felt we were living the lives with these people that said,
I'm going to have to give you a little what
we call the dreaded backstory, because you really can't understand
(03:05):
Red Cloud without understanding the Sioux Nation. So what we
do know what was to become the pre Columbian Sioux Nation.
It was seven tribes, the tribes of the Seven Council Fires.
They followed the Mississippi Valley north and they settled in Minnesota.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Now in Minnesota, they were the.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Baddest Indians in the Great Lake region and for centuries
they just made unending war on their predominantly Algonquin neighbors,
the Creed, the Chippewa, and they were vicious. They war
was their ethos. Unlike other tribes. They had no non
violent culture. They did not make pots, they did not
grow food, they did not even paint anything on their
(03:50):
tepees or their shields. War was the reason for being.
And the first Europeans, mostly French, who looked at the Sioux,
I mean they were amediately reminded of the Norse berserkers,
or the Hunts or the Mongols.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
The Sioux lived to make war.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
That was their ethos, and they were good at it,
and they were real good at it in for centuries,
for hundreds of years, they just dominated the region. But
then what happened was when the English trading ships started
to come into Hudson Bay, and the Cree and the
Chippewahu lived closer to the bay began trading.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Pelts for guns, and the tables turned.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Once the Sioux had been the hunter, now they were
the hunted. Once they had extolled violence for a violence. Say,
see what the Europeans didn't understand watching in particular the Sioux,
but the American Indian culture in general, was it wasn't
violence for violence sake. Yes, they fought wars to gain
territory and to bring home booty. But also the old
(04:49):
cliche the happy hunting ground. The Sioux and most of
the plane stripes for that matter, really believed that there
was an afterlife that was a happy hunting ground, and
it was filled with clear running streams and game as
far as you can see, a buffalo and elk and
deer an antelope and beautiful maidens just waiting to be taken.
(05:10):
But what happened was there they believed that you went
to this afterlife in the same way you left the earth.
So what the Europeans didn't understand about the scalpings and
about the mutilations, And if you went to the if
your enemy went to the happy honting ground with no
eyes to see how beautiful it was, if he went
(05:31):
with no arms to draw back a bowstring, if he
went with no penis to take advantage of these comely maidens,
well then you had he had suffered two indignities at
your hands, one here on Earth and one there.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
And that's what a lot of this was all about.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
When the Europeans came down, of course, they didn't understand
this at all, and they started trading guns with the
other Indians, and the other Indians began hunting the Sioux,
who were still using prehistoric tools flintlock knives, flintlock arrowheads.
They drove the Sioux into the swamps of Minnesota, and
finally their territory just became so compromised that they had
a choice, an existential choice. They either would die or
(06:08):
they had to step out onto the prairie. They ended
up stepping out onto the prairie. Even on the prairie
they were still even though they kept up their warlike ethos,
but they were still the tribes. We don't think of
the Mandans Arik Karraz de Reees, the omahas the Otos.
They were kicking the siouxs. But because these tribes were
(06:29):
mounted and the Sioux were not yet mounted. And one Cheyenne,
one regal Cheyenne I, described the Sioux as scraggly, lce
ridden band begging for handouts.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
That's how bad it was. But that all changed again.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
The worm turned yet again when the English started coming
down first the Minnesota River and then the Missouri River
and establishing trade fairs. Now they were on the edge
of Sioux the Northman Sioux territory, and the Sioux were
the ones the first tribes to get weapons, to get guns,
to get shot, to get ammunition, to get iron pots
(07:05):
that they would break into arrowheads. Sooner or later, the
Sioux took their revenge on the smaller tribes that had
been almost picking them apart, the Mandan Zeoto's, the Rees.
And then something happened that changed the course of Western
history the Spanish. I love this part of the book,
(07:29):
and I love this story. But I won't go too
off course here, but I will say when the Spanish
brought the tough little mustang into South America and Mexico,
it was a match.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Made in heaven.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Unlike the big, lumbering Northern European war horses or plow horses,
these mustangs had started out on the Central Asian steps
and had followed the trade routes through the Mid East
along northern Africa, had interbred with desert horses, and when
the Moors invaded Spain, they came over with these tough
(08:01):
little months and they were right at home on the
Andalusian plane. They could run forever, they could eat weed,
they could eat bark, and once again, when the Spanish
brought them to the New World, they were right at
home in the New World. What happened was is the Spanish,
as they conquered and forcibly converted the Indians up into
(08:22):
what is now the United States, they made deals with them.
You worship our God, who you don't understand, We're basically
going to enslave you.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You grow our crops, but in exchange we have horses.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And we're going to protect you from your age old
enemy of the Apache. Well, the Apache began raiding hacienders
and rancheros and they got horses. They didn't know how
if an Apache would ride a horse will have died
and he would eat it, so they didn't know how.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
To breed it.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
But this gave them room to further out their raids,
and they started raiding the pueblo. And the Pueblos say, Anywaynute,
you enslaved us. You're making us worship some Christian god
we know nothing about, and you're into the dealers to
protect us from the Apache. You can't even do that now.
So in sixteen eighty the Pueblo rose and they drove
(09:08):
the Spanish back into Old Mexico. And the Spanish ran
so fast they left everything behind. So the Pueblo they
ate the cattle, they ate the sheep, but they weren't
a horse tribe, and they just.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Let the horses go.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
And this was the beginning of the great horse expansion
of the United the northern hemisphere of the United States.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And you're listening to Bob Drury and you'll be hearing
the story, the continuing story of Red Cloud, the New
York Times bestseller The Heart of Everything, That is the
untold story of Red Cloud, an American legend. The story
continues here on our American stories, and we continue with
(10:10):
our American stories and with Bob Drury and Tom claven
and they're telling the untold story of Red Cloud. Let's
continue with Bob.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And so the horse gradually made its way along once
again ancient trade routes north. The Comanche were the first
true true horsemen on the plains. They were a scraggly
tribe too, that had come out of the Wind River
Range in Wyoming. But they learned how to breed horses.
They made rudimentary saddles. They were Sam Winds Empire The
(10:40):
Summer Moon, which is a tremendous book.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Tom and I argue with Sam about who were better
horsemen to commands. Hear the Sioux.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I think if you go by territory a long you
have to have I think you have to go with
the Sioux. At least that's what we tell Sam. But
the horses made their way north of Kiowa and Kansas
what is today Kansas got them the Poonee Nebraska all
the way up to the Cree in Canada and of course,
the Cheyenne, the Sioux, the Crow, the old acquired horses.
The Sioux just took to the horse naturally, and much
(11:09):
like the early Apache raids, now they could spread out more.
They conquered what remnants of the smaller tribes, the OTO's,
the Rees, the Mandans, and then they took on the
big boys. And they pushed the Pawnee out. They pushed
the Kiowa out of the Black Hills. They pushed the
Crow out of the Powdered River country and up into
(11:30):
the Rockies. They controlled basically parts of months from Minnesota
to Montana, to the Great Salt Lake and down to.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Lower Colorado.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Even it was just it was an empire, but the
Sioux were still seven nations, seven tribes. Sitting Bull, I'm
sure you've all heard of he was a hunk. Papa
Crazy Horse was an Oglala. Red Cloud himself had an
Oglala mother and a brutal father. So these seven tribes
were further scattered into the fractious.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Bands and clans.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
They all spoke the same language and they all had
the same culture, but they were not united, and they
wouldn't fight each other. But they weren't enemies, but they
weren't friendly towards each other. They were just waiting for someone,
if someone would come along and unite them. So in
eighteen twenty one, on the banks of Bluewater Creek and
(12:24):
what is now the Stubby Little Panhandle of Nebraska, two
nights before, a meteor had shot through the sky left
a giant, a red swathe of cloud across the sky.
And in eighteen twenty one, by the banks of Bluewater Creek,
a baby was born and his father named him Red Cloud.
And Red Cloud was the man who would eventually unite
(12:47):
these people.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Tom will tell you about that.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
As Bob just said, Red Cloud was born in May
of eighteen twenty one. And there's so many stories that
we've heard of in history of ple men and women
who had to have very difficult childhoods and had to
rise above them, and the resiliency and the strength that
they gained from their experiences made them into leaders, made
(13:12):
them tougher than some of their rivals. And that was
certainly Red Cloud's situation. He was born in eighteen twenty one.
His mother was called Walks as she thinks. He had
a younger brother, little Spider. Eventually, when Red Cloud was
only five years old, his father died. And his father
didn't die of a war or an accident or anything like.
He died of alcoholism. So we're talking about the mid
(13:35):
eighteen twenties and here's a Sioux man dying of alcohololism.
And when the traders, some of the explorers, but the traders,
some of the early migrants, the people who are working
their way west. There were three powerful diseases they brought
with them smallpox, cholera, and alcohol. And the Indians did
(13:56):
not have any immunity to any of these diseases. They
were felled by the hundreds and Red Cloud thus had
to grow up without a father. A advantage he had
is that his mother went back to her Oglala band
that was run by the headman.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
There was a man named Old Smoke who she called brother.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Now we don't know were they biologically brothers or was
that just the relationship that they had or brother and
sister relationship, But in any case, Old Smoke took in
this woman and her two young.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Fatherless children.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
Red Cloud was not given anything, you know, he didn't
have a father who was going to bring him up
the ladder, so to speak, like Crazy Horse had like
sitting bull would have.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
So he had to earn everything.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
He had to become the best rider, he had to
become the best hunter. Eventually had to become the best warrior.
And over time, even when he was a teenager. You know,
there's a section in the book where we talk about
he went into his first battle when he was sixteen
years old, and there.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Was great excitement in the village.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
This war party was being put together because for the
first time, Red Cloud was putting on the war paint
and getting ready for battle. And you know, the people
in the village were saying, red Cloud comes, Red Cloud comes.
As he made his way on his horse to join
this war party. So at a very early age, he
showed qualities and talents that were superior to most of
(15:20):
the people in his tribe. In the eighteen thirties eighteen forties,
he became he rose up the ranks, he became a leader,
he became a great warrior, and being a warrior, was
a great warrior was very important because we've sort of
likened it to what was going on in the Great
Plains at the time.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
It was sort of like gang warfare.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
You know, the tribes, the Sue, the Arapaho, the Cheyenne,
the Pawnee, the crow. They were almost always at war
with each other. And it wasn't just a war like, Okay,
we want to defeat you and conquer you. It was well,
we want this hunting ground. Okay, we know it belongs
to you, but not for long. Look out here we come.
(16:02):
And so there was constant fighting to steal horses, to
steal lands. Obviously, if you had the best hunting ground,
your tribe had a better chance of survival because they
were going to be more buffalo, they were going to
be more elk, they were going to be more antelope.
And one of the things that Red Cloud he displayed
not only great courage and great strength, he demonstrated great
(16:24):
intelligence and empathy. When he came back from a successful
hunting raid, for example, he didn't just keep everything for himself.
He made sure that the elders got some of what
he brought back. He made sure that some families that
was struggling to take care of themselves got some of
his bounty that he brought back. He made sure the
(16:45):
people who were in power and the tribe, Old Smoke
and the other elders that they were taken care of.
And in this way, he also started to gain a
kind of respect that he might otherwise have gotten being
a fatherless person. So into the eighteen fifties he began
to be viewed by the Oglalas as not chief. And
(17:08):
I think that's important one of the more interesting things
that we found out there was no chief. You know,
we're used to somebody who is an authority in Native
American circles being a chief, but that was actually a
white man invention. Red Cloud was not a chief, but
he became like the most powerful warrior and the head
(17:30):
of their warrior society, and he was observing what was
going on. Even though the tribes spent most of their
time fighting each other, they couldn't help noticing that there
were more and more.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
White people showing up.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Fort Laramie was probably the most prominent fort in that part,
you know, on Missouri and west of the Missouri, and
it would be a way station as people coming from
the east would stop and force Fort Laramie. They would
pick up more people, drop off some people, get supplies,
drop off supplies, change work or whatever, and then they
would go on. That's what the Oregon Trail was about.
They would be going on to Oregon or they would
(18:05):
be going up to other places. Certainly, when gold was
discovered in California, the immigration accelerated across to the west,
going through and the Red Cloud could see that the
increase in population of people coming across the territory was
doing several things.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And you're listening to Bob Drury and Tom Claven telling
the story of Red Cloud and that mention of white people,
the original white guys poking around in this neck of
the woods after the Louisiana purchase was, of course, Lewis
and Clark, and we tell their story well. Clay Jenkinson
tells their story in our multi part series approaching forty parts,
(18:46):
the most Epic road Trip ever, the Story of Lewis
and Clark, And go to our American Stories dot com
and plug it in, download it if you're taking a
long family trip. Nobody tells the story of Lewis and
Clark better than Clay and Clay Jenkinson is on the
History Channel. You see him all the time, as do
you see Bob and Tom. And when we come back,
(19:09):
more of this remarkable story from their New York Times
bestseller The Heart of Everything That Is The Untold Story
of Red Cloud, an American legend continues here on our
American stories, and we continue with our American stories and
(19:41):
Bob Drury and Tom Claven telling the story of Red Cloud,
an American legend. Let's return to the story.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
Red Cloud could see that the increase in population of
people coming across the territory was doing several things. One
was they were taking a big share of the Buffalo.
He also, Red Cloud anticipated that they were going to
want to go through and perhaps even occupy the Black Hills.
(20:11):
And for those who wonder and don't know the title
of our book, the heart of everything that is. The
sue name for the Black Hills was Pahasappa, and to them,
translated is the heart of everything that is. The Black
Hills was the heart of their existence. That's where they
believe their ancestors came from. And it was sacred land
to them, and it certainly could not be given away,
(20:34):
It could not certainly just simply be occupied, could not
be taken advantage of by the white explorers and settlers
and the army. Certainly, but he saw that coming. He
saw this clash. You know, Bob mentioned the word empire
before you know, there was this growing empire of the east,
and there was this empire that Red Cloud was basically
had become the head of because he was this intelligent,
(20:57):
charismatic man, and other Indians and even of the tribes
respected him. Some feared him, but they respected him. And
he could see that they were going to clash against
each other. Something interrupted what he saw, and that was
the Civil War. When the Civil War broke out in
eighteen sixty one, obviously you couldn't have the kind of
(21:17):
forts and army presence in the West that you had
because as many everybody was needed back east, and it
was kind of a respite there and it lasted eighteen
sixty one to eighteen sixty five. And when the Civil
War ended, suddenly there was a big change because this
sense of manifest destiny could go right back into full swing,
(21:39):
and the enormous increase of people started making their way
west again, and the whole coveting of the Great Plains
and the Black Hills began all over again.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
So I'll turn it back over to Bob.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
And during the Civil War, iiO gold was being discovered
all over.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
The West, Montana, Idaho, the Front Range in Colorado, and
so the miners started pouring in in Red Cloud's lifetime,
I think there were four treaties that were broken. The
Whites just kept coming say, okay, we're going to stop here,
we'll sign a treaty, we'll touch the pen. Gold would
be discovered somewhere and said, oh, well, now that treaty
didn't count, here's the new one. And Red Cloud was like,
(22:14):
he didn't trust the Whites as far as he could
throw them, But with all this gold being discovered all
over the West, he knew it was inevitable that he
was going to.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Have to fight.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
So he started attacking the miners, and he started attacking
the wagon trains on the Oregon Trail, on the in
cooperation with During this hiatus that Tom talked about, he
had become such a great name in the planes that
even though he was an Noglala, warriors from other Sioux
bands wanted to ride with him. Hunk Papas would ride
(22:44):
in with him and say, we want to ride with you,
hunt with you, fight with you. Rules would come in,
sans arcs would come in, and so he had developed
kind of this inter tribal facility that now he was
going to use and turn it on the Whites. And
what he had done that no Indian had ever done before.
He had also co opted other tribes, the Cheyenne, the Rapaho,
(23:08):
some Shoshone. These tribes would fight with the Sioux. This
had never happened before. Washington, the officials back east and
the War Department, they had never They had fought seven
Oles in Florida, they had fought Mohawks, they had fought Jerokee,
but they had never fought multiple tribes at once. And
so Red Cloud's war was a gorilla war. And he
(23:29):
would attack and pick off a wagon train here, a
supply train there, a mail train here. So the miners,
of course, and the settlers who were passing through appealed
to Washington, who started to send soldiers west.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Civil war was over. We're going to send our soldiers.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Our battle hardened soldiers to pick off these with these savages.
And Red Cloud was winning these skirmishes, and the more
soldiers that came out, the more Indians were attracted to
his warrior fiefdom, so to speak. Red Cloud would set
up three different attacks on a fort here, on a
supply train two hundred miles away, and then on a
(24:07):
wagon train three hundred miles away from that. This has
never happened before, and he would attack, and instead of celebrating,
as was the American Indian custom and habit, he would
attack the next day and the day after that, and
then his warriors would just disappear into the planes. It
was true guerrilla warfare, and we didn't know how to
handle it. So we sent out more and more soldiers.
(24:28):
They had seen some heart, some heart fighting in the
Civil War, but they weren't used to coming across a
supply train where everyone's penis had been hacked off. Eyeballs
gouged out, brains gouged out. We think we found Actually
I should credit Tom with this. Tom found a journal,
and it might be the first time US soldiers making
a pact to kill each other rather than be captured
(24:50):
by the Indians.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I mean, this is how far in this kind of
warfare was to them.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So finally General Grant and General Sherman said enough is enough.
We're going to send out an army to fight Red Cloud. Well,
Red Cloud wasn't going to fight their army on the
European terms or on the Civil War terms that they wanted,
so they sent out thousands of mounted infantry. From the movies,
we all think it's cavalry John Wayne's cavalry. It was
(25:15):
all mounted infantry who these guys were currently learning how
to ride on the fly, and.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
That was another advantage the Sioux had.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So in the summer of eighteen sixty five alone, three
thousand soldiers combed combed the west looking for Red Cloud,
and he would attack them and they could never find him.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And then in.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Eighteen sixty six, it's hard charging Captain Captain Fetterman, Sherman's
hand picked man. Go find me Red Cloud, kill him,
and kill every Sioux male over the age of twelve. Well,
Fetterman gets out there and he's of the opinion, you know,
these are Indians, these are savages. Pre store I could
(25:53):
ride through the entire Sioux nation with eighty men, and
he tried to do that. He took out eighty one
men one day and Ride Cloud laid a trap for him,
and Fetterman rode right into it, and everyone Fetterman included
in his command were killed. Now, the Americans called it
a massacre. The suit called it a fight. It was
a fair fight. We beat these guys, we killed him.
(26:14):
But that was the beginning of what came to be
known as Red Cloud's War.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Now, Red Cloud's War.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Would go on for another two years, and there were
many many more fettermans sent out to capture Red Cloud.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
And there were many many more.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
American soldiers who were killed, while Red Cloud still remained
uncaptured and undead.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
So finally, after two years, we needed the gold. I mean,
we were living.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
The United States had built up such a national debt
during the Civil War. We said, we'll do any Red
Cloud come in, what do you want, We'll have another treaty.
We promise we'll keep this treaty. We know we've broken
a dozen before. We promise we'll keep this one. Just
tell us what you want. And Red Cloud had one demand,
and it was a pretty big demand, and he gave
(27:00):
it to Washington representatives. They're like, huh, and so would
Washington meet Red Cloud's demand or would they not?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
This was the key to Red Cloud's War.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
The treaty that Red Clouds signed in eighteen sixty eight
to end the war was still in effect. When gold
was discovered in the Black Hills, Miners were prospectors were
flood trying to flood into the Black Hills. For a
while the US government made some attempt to keep them out,
but they realized, you know, we're not going to be
(27:31):
able to do that, so they appointed got an expedition
together that was headed by George Armstrong Custer, who went
in there and there was no battle. There was no resistance,
no opposition put up to Custer going in there. But
what was happening is his invasion, so to speak, at
the Black Hills did Bill momentum under the leadership of
(27:53):
Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse that they have to stop this,
they have to they have to protect the Black Hills.
Two years later, the result was Little Big Horn and
the deaths of Custer and his command that the hands
of Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, which was a battle
that Red Cloud did not participate in.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Red Cloud had already been to Washington.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, and he had seen the very first place they
took him when he got to this town was to
the Navy yard and showed him to cannons. So when
the white started pouring into the Black Hills, Sitting Bowl
and Crazy Horse said, okay, it's time to fight him again.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
And Red Cloud had kind of honed Crazy Horse.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
He had picked him out as a teenager and made
him his field commander at the age of twenty two
or something, so Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull came back
to Red Clout said, we've got to do it again.
They're coming again. They've broken another treaty. By this time,
Redcott had been to Washington twice, I believe in to
New York. He knew what was on the other side
of the Mississippi River, and he said to Sitting Bowl
and Crazy Horse, he said, no, we can't beat these people.
(28:54):
I'm not going to waste my people. I'm not going
to sacrifice my people's lives. We can't beat these people,
which is why Red Cloud never got involved in the
Custom Fighter.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
And great job as always to Greg Hangler for finding
this story and editing it and getting it to us,
and a special thanks to Bob Drury and to Tom
claven And my goodness, what a read, What a book,
What a story, the heart of everything that is the
untold story of Red Cloud, an American legend. Go to
Amazon or the usual suspects by the book. You won't
(29:23):
put it down. After signing the Treaty of Fort Laramie
in eighteen sixty eight, red Cloud led his people in
the transition to reservation life. In eighteen eighty four, he
and his family, along with five Indian leaders, converted and
were baptized as Catholics by Father Joseph Bushman. Outliving all
other major Lakota leaders of the Indian Wars, Red Cloud
(29:44):
died on Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota in nineteen
oh nine at the age of eighty seven, and was
buried there in the cemetery now bearing his name. And
by the way red Cloud saw the collision of cultures,
there was nothing he could do about it, the original
tragedy of this country, the story that we tell, because
we tell all the stories good and bad about this
(30:06):
great not perfect country, but great country. Here on our
American stories
Host
Lee Habeeb
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