December 23, 2024 • 17 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, Bill Toti, former captain of the USS Indianapolis submarine, tells the story of his experience with Admiral Hyman Rickover—the father of the nuclear navy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American people.
And we love our listeners' stories. If you have one,
share it with us at our American Stories dot com.
That's our American Stories dot com. There's some of our favorites.
When we talk about the United States Nuclear Navy, or
(00:31):
even the widespread use of nuclear reactors to generate power,
we need to talk about one man, Admiral Hyman Rickover,
a man whose active duty service spanned sixty three years,
making him the longest serving naval officer as well as
the longest serving member of the US Armed Forces in history.
(00:51):
Despite Rickover's impressive length of service, he is more known
for his unorthodox interview tactics. Here is retired Navy Captain
Bill Tody to tell us about his experience with the
kindly old gentleman.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
The time was about seven pm. After a series of
very long days. Like the others, this day was filled
with tests and interviews, hours of mental intensity interrupted by
hours of my numbing boredom. I was a first class
midshipman at the US Naval Academy, and this was the
(01:33):
singular event that would determine the course of my professional life.
For the previous few hours, a combination of fatigue and
nervous energy had been building, and I had become riveted,
torn between the awe of the moment and fear of
screwing this up. We had heard many tales about what
(01:58):
I would soon encounter. Most of these stories were presumed
to be tall tales. For example, several different renditions of
the make me mad story had been circulating, where Admiral
Hyman rickover dared a midshipman to do something that would
anger him, purportedly to see how willing the midshipman would
(02:18):
be to follow an order. Some midshipmen were said to
have complied by clearing the Admiral's desk with a single
arm suite. Then there were the various confinement tales of
being locked up in a small space or tiny closet
for hours. This apparently was one of the Admiral's famous
tests for claustrophobia, to see if the midshipmen had what
(02:43):
it would take to become a submarine officer. The only
anecdote I heard from our current round of interludes had
supposedly involved a classmate of mine, just a few hours earlier,
as the breathless rumor went, the admiral had been and
berating him for a particularly poor performance in a certain
(03:05):
course of study. What would your mother think if she
knew you were gooving off like this, the admiral had
supposedly asked my classmate, who reportedly replied, my mother's dead.
The Admiral's alleged response, well, it's a good thing she is,
or she would die of embarrassment. This is how the
(03:25):
legends usually spread. Most of them were unbelievably over the top.
Each was uncorroborated. I had been running through my potential
reactions to these various scenarios when it happened. I was
ushered in to see the kindly old gentleman, the Kog
(03:46):
of nuclear power lore. The year was nineteen seventy nine.
Since the Admiral was born in nineteen hundred, it was
never difficult to calculate his age. The man was seventy
nine and of almost mythical stature. I walked into his
office and something seemed vaguely familiar. I couldn't quite place it,
(04:10):
but I had witnessed this scene before. I looked around,
searching for a clue of why I had this sudden
bout of dreamlike familiarity, And as my backside hit the
seat of a sadistically teetering wooden chair designed it was
said to keep the midshipman off balance, the first of
(04:30):
the rumors I could now actually validate it hit me.
The room was right out of the holiday movie It's
a Wonderful Life. He was mister Potter and I was
George Bailey. He was about to offer me a job
and hand me a cigar. And then the Admiral, without
ever looking up, muttered the only words I would hear
(04:53):
during round one of Tody versus the Admiral. I can't
use a philosophy major with the three to zero average
get out my assigned shepherd, a prospective commanding officer or
PCO student, grabbed my elbow and yanked hard enough to
overcome my inertia. Suddenly we were standing outside the Admiral's office,
(05:16):
the visit having lasted less than thirty seconds. As the
door closed behind me, I broke through the mental fog
enough to proclaim, but I'm a physics major, clearly weary
of playing advocate to a bunch of wide eyed midshipmen.
He led me off to parts unknown. He pointed to
(05:36):
a door and said, I'll see what I can do.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Wait and hear.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
My holding pen was a very small office, with bare
walls and dust, and filled nearly to capacity by a
large metal desk. After a couple of the most excruciatingly
tedious hours of my life, the door opened and the
same commander said come. We retraced our steps down the
(06:05):
now familiar quarter into the Admiral's office, and I threw
myself back onto that demon of a chair. Admiral Ricover
was gazing hard at a file, occasionally muttering to himself.
I was surprised how old and frail the great man looked.
His desk was stacked high with files of various sizes.
(06:30):
I could barely see him behind this morass. After what
seemed an eternity, again, without looking up, he said, you've
got to see in philosophy. Why that philosophy again?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And you've been listening to Navy Captain Bill Tody tell
the pretty traumatic story of his first interview with a
living legend and a curmudgeon. And back in the day
there were a lot more interviews like this. Now you'd
get arrested for this stuff or thrown in the stockade.
When we come back. More of Captain Toady's story about
(07:11):
coming face to face with the nuclear abe Lincoln Admiral
Hyman Rickover here on Our American Stories. Liehabibe here the
(07:32):
host of our American Stories. Every day on this show,
we're bringing inspiring stories from across this great country, stories
from our big cities and small towns. But we truly
can't do the show without you. Our stories are free
to listen to, but they're not free to make. If
you love what you hear, go to Ouramerican Stories dot
com and click the donate button. Give a little, give
(07:54):
a lot. Go to Auramerican Stories dot com and give
and we're back with our American Stories. Retired Navy Captain
Bill Toady's experience with the father of the nuclear Navy,
(08:17):
Admiral Hyman Rickover. After accusing Tody of being an underperforming
philosophy major, he was actually a physics major, Rickover brought
Tody back into his office did grillam once again.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
After what seemed an eternity. Again, without looking up, he said,
you've got to see in philosophy. Why that philosophy again?
Thus began my rant, which went something like this. My
professor was a product of the old university and didn't
(08:52):
believe in grades. He would frequently say, I can lead
you to philosophy, but I can't make you think. Our
grade was dependent on the number of papers we submitted,
rather than the quality of our work. While the other
students submitted four two page papers to get an A,
I submitted one very good sixty page paper, essentially daring
him to give me a C. And he did. I
(09:14):
gambled and lost. I could see the rage starting to build.
I think it started somewhere in his neck, but maybe
it started lower than that. I couldn't really tell, because
his lower regions were obstructed by the stack of papers.
(09:35):
By the time this passion had risen to his head,
it had grown to what can only be called Ricovarian proportions,
and his eyes, the fire in his eyes was not
that of an old man. This was a young, visceral anger.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
That's bold.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
He stood halfway up. Spittle shot out of his mouth
as he summarizing a much longer tirade. The gist of
what he screamed was.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
I have heard a lot of book my day, but
have never ever heard such book before. I want you
to know, young man, that you now hold the record.
Get out of here, get the laud of my office.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
At this point in my life, I would not have
called myself an overachiever, and I kind of gloried in
the possibility that now, after all these years, I might
finally hold a record at something. And I had earnestly,
simple mindedly, stupidly wondered what I could have said or
(10:44):
done to earn such wrath. I also honestly began to wonder,
if I really had this stuff he was looking for,
would I be accepted into the program that was, at
the time the most prestigious the Navy had to offer.
I followed the PCO down the hall to what I
(11:06):
presumed would be the same office, and to my surprise,
when I steered through the door, I was looking into
a closet, the closet of legend. I would now have
the honor of referring to myself as one of the
closet survivors in there, the PCO said, and then he left.
(11:30):
I wondered about the criteria for putting malcontents in the
last barren office as opposed to this closet. My Catholic
upbringing provided the answer. I concluded that the office was
sort of a nuclear purgatory, saved for those innocents who
were guilty only of original sin, that is, those who,
(11:52):
through no fault of their own, were simply stupid by birth.
The closet, on the other hand, was deserved for those
truly despicable characters who had actively, if not knowingly, sinned
against him, those who were actively stupid, not merely passively.
So it all made sense in a nuclear justice sort
(12:15):
of way. But it wasn't the kind of closet I
had imagined when hearing that miscreants had been banished to
the closet. In my mind, the place of banishment was
a coat closet or a storage room of some sort. Instead,
my current station was actually one of those janitorial closets
(12:40):
with brooms and bad smells and a deep sink. For
almost two hours, I considered my plight. While pondering the
intangibles of this closet, I contemplated the fine art of
dust mop construction. I remembered the many times I had
been trusted with operating such equipment in my first real job,
(13:02):
when I was still too young to drive. Sweeping and
mopping floors, and although I was successfully killing time, I
was completely missing the point. Maybe it was because of
the boredom, or maybe a couple of stray neurons in
my brain collided in a freak vision like accident. But
(13:25):
eventually I began to think. I traced the sequence of
events in my life that had led to this day.
I began to recall the drive that caused me to
toss off the constrained dreams of a young steel town
boy and apply for an appointment to the academy. And
(13:47):
while searching for my motivation, I began to ponder my heritage.
My grandparents were immigrants who escaped from Italy to avoid
the unhappy fate of a poor dirt farmer in a
poor dirt land. At one point, my father's father found
employment in his new homeland by digging ditches for a living,
(14:09):
happy to drill sewer lines through solid Ohio sandstone with
nothing more than a pick axe and a hard steel shovel.
My mother's father had toiled his entire life shoveling coal
and working the steel mills. I remembered that, even at
a very early age, I understood the travails of a
(14:30):
hard life, and so, while still just a young boy,
I made a commitment to myself that for me it
would be different. And suddenly, there in that janitor's closet,
among those mops and brooms, I had an epiphany. So
when the door finally opened, I rose from my deep
(14:52):
sink sofa and walked into the Admiral's office with confidence.
Are you ready to tell me the truth? He asked, Admiral.
It doesn't matter what great I got in philosophy. What
matter is that I could have worked harder but didn't,
and by not giving my best effort, I've betrayed myself,
and I betrayed the investment the country was placing in me.
(15:14):
And although I didn't say it, I also knew that
I had betrayed my past. And amazingly, for the very
first time, the Admiral looked at me. The rage was gone,
the fire was gone, and it was now after eleven PM.
All I saw was an old man with the weight
(15:35):
of the greatest submarine force in the world on his shoulders.
That's right, he said, If you give less than you're
able to, you'll let everyone down, me, your ship, your navy,
your country. I can't use people like that. I can
only use people who have the courage and discipline to
(15:56):
give everything they've got. I can be one of those
people out You better be, or you'll never survive my program.
And that is how I was accepted into Admiral Ricover's
nuclear training program. I've since commanded one of the submarines
the Admiral brought into this world, and I've served as
(16:17):
commodore of a submarine squadron. And after all these years,
I'm still not sure if Admiral Ricover intended for that
simple janitor's closet to serve as his mecca of wisdom
and humility. Was that confinement merely a sadistic ruse, as
some have said, or did he really intend for those
(16:40):
cleaning tools to be symbols of what my life might
have been, tangible touchstones to our collective past. I hear
people frequently say that the Admiral's methods were trivial or petty,
but I don't believe that. I'm one of those who
think there was a method to madness. After all, I
(17:03):
found truth in a closet, and in so doing, I
found myself.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
And a terrific job on the production by Robbie and
a special thanks to Captain Bill Tody. His book From
COEO to CEO, A Practical Guide for transitioning from Military
to Industry Leadership, is available wherever you buy your books.
And what a story he told about being in that
closet and having to come to terms with who he
really was and having to tell the truth to well
(17:34):
a legend. I could have worked harder and didn't. I
betrayed myself and my past. His life began on that day.
The story of Admiral Hyman Rickover and Captain Bill Tody.
Here on our American Story
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American people.
And we love our listeners' stories. If you have one,
share it with us at our American Stories dot com.
That's our American Stories dot com. There's some of our favorites.
When we talk about the United States Nuclear Navy, or
(00:31):
even the widespread use of nuclear reactors to generate power,
we need to talk about one man, Admiral Hyman Rickover,
a man whose active duty service spanned sixty three years,
making him the longest serving naval officer as well as
the longest serving member of the US Armed Forces in history.
(00:51):
Despite Rickover's impressive length of service, he is more known
for his unorthodox interview tactics. Here is retired Navy Captain
Bill Tody to tell us about his experience with the
kindly old gentleman.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
The time was about seven pm. After a series of
very long days. Like the others, this day was filled
with tests and interviews, hours of mental intensity interrupted by
hours of my numbing boredom. I was a first class
midshipman at the US Naval Academy, and this was the
(01:33):
singular event that would determine the course of my professional life.
For the previous few hours, a combination of fatigue and
nervous energy had been building, and I had become riveted,
torn between the awe of the moment and fear of
screwing this up. We had heard many tales about what
(01:58):
I would soon encounter. Most of these stories were presumed
to be tall tales. For example, several different renditions of
the make me mad story had been circulating, where Admiral
Hyman rickover dared a midshipman to do something that would
anger him, purportedly to see how willing the midshipman would
(02:18):
be to follow an order. Some midshipmen were said to
have complied by clearing the Admiral's desk with a single
arm suite. Then there were the various confinement tales of
being locked up in a small space or tiny closet
for hours. This apparently was one of the Admiral's famous
tests for claustrophobia, to see if the midshipmen had what
(02:43):
it would take to become a submarine officer. The only
anecdote I heard from our current round of interludes had
supposedly involved a classmate of mine, just a few hours earlier,
as the breathless rumor went, the admiral had been and
berating him for a particularly poor performance in a certain
(03:05):
course of study. What would your mother think if she
knew you were gooving off like this, the admiral had
supposedly asked my classmate, who reportedly replied, my mother's dead.
The Admiral's alleged response, well, it's a good thing she is,
or she would die of embarrassment. This is how the
(03:25):
legends usually spread. Most of them were unbelievably over the top.
Each was uncorroborated. I had been running through my potential
reactions to these various scenarios when it happened. I was
ushered in to see the kindly old gentleman, the Kog
(03:46):
of nuclear power lore. The year was nineteen seventy nine.
Since the Admiral was born in nineteen hundred, it was
never difficult to calculate his age. The man was seventy
nine and of almost mythical stature. I walked into his
office and something seemed vaguely familiar. I couldn't quite place it,
(04:10):
but I had witnessed this scene before. I looked around,
searching for a clue of why I had this sudden
bout of dreamlike familiarity, And as my backside hit the
seat of a sadistically teetering wooden chair designed it was
said to keep the midshipman off balance, the first of
(04:30):
the rumors I could now actually validate it hit me.
The room was right out of the holiday movie It's
a Wonderful Life. He was mister Potter and I was
George Bailey. He was about to offer me a job
and hand me a cigar. And then the Admiral, without
ever looking up, muttered the only words I would hear
(04:53):
during round one of Tody versus the Admiral. I can't
use a philosophy major with the three to zero average
get out my assigned shepherd, a prospective commanding officer or
PCO student, grabbed my elbow and yanked hard enough to
overcome my inertia. Suddenly we were standing outside the Admiral's office,
(05:16):
the visit having lasted less than thirty seconds. As the
door closed behind me, I broke through the mental fog
enough to proclaim, but I'm a physics major, clearly weary
of playing advocate to a bunch of wide eyed midshipmen.
He led me off to parts unknown. He pointed to
(05:36):
a door and said, I'll see what I can do.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Wait and hear.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
My holding pen was a very small office, with bare
walls and dust, and filled nearly to capacity by a
large metal desk. After a couple of the most excruciatingly
tedious hours of my life, the door opened and the
same commander said come. We retraced our steps down the
(06:05):
now familiar quarter into the Admiral's office, and I threw
myself back onto that demon of a chair. Admiral Ricover
was gazing hard at a file, occasionally muttering to himself.
I was surprised how old and frail the great man looked.
His desk was stacked high with files of various sizes.
(06:30):
I could barely see him behind this morass. After what
seemed an eternity, again, without looking up, he said, you've
got to see in philosophy. Why that philosophy again?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And you've been listening to Navy Captain Bill Tody tell
the pretty traumatic story of his first interview with a
living legend and a curmudgeon. And back in the day
there were a lot more interviews like this. Now you'd
get arrested for this stuff or thrown in the stockade.
When we come back. More of Captain Toady's story about
(07:11):
coming face to face with the nuclear abe Lincoln Admiral
Hyman Rickover here on Our American Stories. Liehabibe here the
(07:32):
host of our American Stories. Every day on this show,
we're bringing inspiring stories from across this great country, stories
from our big cities and small towns. But we truly
can't do the show without you. Our stories are free
to listen to, but they're not free to make. If
you love what you hear, go to Ouramerican Stories dot
com and click the donate button. Give a little, give
(07:54):
a lot. Go to Auramerican Stories dot com and give
and we're back with our American Stories. Retired Navy Captain
Bill Toady's experience with the father of the nuclear Navy,
(08:17):
Admiral Hyman Rickover. After accusing Tody of being an underperforming
philosophy major, he was actually a physics major, Rickover brought
Tody back into his office did grillam once again.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
After what seemed an eternity. Again, without looking up, he said,
you've got to see in philosophy. Why that philosophy again?
Thus began my rant, which went something like this. My
professor was a product of the old university and didn't
(08:52):
believe in grades. He would frequently say, I can lead
you to philosophy, but I can't make you think. Our
grade was dependent on the number of papers we submitted,
rather than the quality of our work. While the other
students submitted four two page papers to get an A,
I submitted one very good sixty page paper, essentially daring
him to give me a C. And he did. I
(09:14):
gambled and lost. I could see the rage starting to build.
I think it started somewhere in his neck, but maybe
it started lower than that. I couldn't really tell, because
his lower regions were obstructed by the stack of papers.
(09:35):
By the time this passion had risen to his head,
it had grown to what can only be called Ricovarian proportions,
and his eyes, the fire in his eyes was not
that of an old man. This was a young, visceral anger.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
That's bold.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
He stood halfway up. Spittle shot out of his mouth
as he summarizing a much longer tirade. The gist of
what he screamed was.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
I have heard a lot of book my day, but
have never ever heard such book before. I want you
to know, young man, that you now hold the record.
Get out of here, get the laud of my office.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
At this point in my life, I would not have
called myself an overachiever, and I kind of gloried in
the possibility that now, after all these years, I might
finally hold a record at something. And I had earnestly,
simple mindedly, stupidly wondered what I could have said or
(10:44):
done to earn such wrath. I also honestly began to wonder,
if I really had this stuff he was looking for,
would I be accepted into the program that was, at
the time the most prestigious the Navy had to offer.
I followed the PCO down the hall to what I
(11:06):
presumed would be the same office, and to my surprise,
when I steered through the door, I was looking into
a closet, the closet of legend. I would now have
the honor of referring to myself as one of the
closet survivors in there, the PCO said, and then he left.
(11:30):
I wondered about the criteria for putting malcontents in the
last barren office as opposed to this closet. My Catholic
upbringing provided the answer. I concluded that the office was
sort of a nuclear purgatory, saved for those innocents who
were guilty only of original sin, that is, those who,
(11:52):
through no fault of their own, were simply stupid by birth.
The closet, on the other hand, was deserved for those
truly despicable characters who had actively, if not knowingly, sinned
against him, those who were actively stupid, not merely passively.
So it all made sense in a nuclear justice sort
(12:15):
of way. But it wasn't the kind of closet I
had imagined when hearing that miscreants had been banished to
the closet. In my mind, the place of banishment was
a coat closet or a storage room of some sort. Instead,
my current station was actually one of those janitorial closets
(12:40):
with brooms and bad smells and a deep sink. For
almost two hours, I considered my plight. While pondering the
intangibles of this closet, I contemplated the fine art of
dust mop construction. I remembered the many times I had
been trusted with operating such equipment in my first real job,
(13:02):
when I was still too young to drive. Sweeping and
mopping floors, and although I was successfully killing time, I
was completely missing the point. Maybe it was because of
the boredom, or maybe a couple of stray neurons in
my brain collided in a freak vision like accident. But
(13:25):
eventually I began to think. I traced the sequence of
events in my life that had led to this day.
I began to recall the drive that caused me to
toss off the constrained dreams of a young steel town
boy and apply for an appointment to the academy. And
(13:47):
while searching for my motivation, I began to ponder my heritage.
My grandparents were immigrants who escaped from Italy to avoid
the unhappy fate of a poor dirt farmer in a
poor dirt land. At one point, my father's father found
employment in his new homeland by digging ditches for a living,
(14:09):
happy to drill sewer lines through solid Ohio sandstone with
nothing more than a pick axe and a hard steel shovel.
My mother's father had toiled his entire life shoveling coal
and working the steel mills. I remembered that, even at
a very early age, I understood the travails of a
(14:30):
hard life, and so, while still just a young boy,
I made a commitment to myself that for me it
would be different. And suddenly, there in that janitor's closet,
among those mops and brooms, I had an epiphany. So
when the door finally opened, I rose from my deep
(14:52):
sink sofa and walked into the Admiral's office with confidence.
Are you ready to tell me the truth? He asked, Admiral.
It doesn't matter what great I got in philosophy. What
matter is that I could have worked harder but didn't,
and by not giving my best effort, I've betrayed myself,
and I betrayed the investment the country was placing in me.
(15:14):
And although I didn't say it, I also knew that
I had betrayed my past. And amazingly, for the very
first time, the Admiral looked at me. The rage was gone,
the fire was gone, and it was now after eleven PM.
All I saw was an old man with the weight
(15:35):
of the greatest submarine force in the world on his shoulders.
That's right, he said, If you give less than you're
able to, you'll let everyone down, me, your ship, your navy,
your country. I can't use people like that. I can
only use people who have the courage and discipline to
(15:56):
give everything they've got. I can be one of those
people out You better be, or you'll never survive my program.
And that is how I was accepted into Admiral Ricover's
nuclear training program. I've since commanded one of the submarines
the Admiral brought into this world, and I've served as
(16:17):
commodore of a submarine squadron. And after all these years,
I'm still not sure if Admiral Ricover intended for that
simple janitor's closet to serve as his mecca of wisdom
and humility. Was that confinement merely a sadistic ruse, as
some have said, or did he really intend for those
(16:40):
cleaning tools to be symbols of what my life might
have been, tangible touchstones to our collective past. I hear
people frequently say that the Admiral's methods were trivial or petty,
but I don't believe that. I'm one of those who
think there was a method to madness. After all, I
(17:03):
found truth in a closet, and in so doing, I
found myself.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
And a terrific job on the production by Robbie and
a special thanks to Captain Bill Tody. His book From
COEO to CEO, A Practical Guide for transitioning from Military
to Industry Leadership, is available wherever you buy your books.
And what a story he told about being in that
closet and having to come to terms with who he
really was and having to tell the truth to well
(17:34):
a legend. I could have worked harder and didn't. I
betrayed myself and my past. His life began on that day.
The story of Admiral Hyman Rickover and Captain Bill Tody.
Here on our American Story
Host
Lee Habeeb
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com