Inside Johnny Carson and Joan Rivers’ Rise and Fall on The Tonight Show

On this episode of Our American Stories, for years, Johnny Carson and Joan Rivers defined late-night television. Carson ruled The Tonight Show as its steady center, while Rivers became his most trusted guest host, winning audiences with her sharp timing and fearless comedy. Night after night, viewers came to see them as a natural pairing, shaping what a late-night talk show could be. Then, in nineteen eighty-six, everything changed. Joan Rivers accepted her own late-night show, a move that fractured one of television’s most influential relationships. Mark Malkoff, author of Johnny Carson: One Obsessive Fan’s Journey to Find the Genius Behind the Legend, tells the story.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Lee Habib, and this is our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American
people coming to you from the city where the West begins,
Fort Worth, Texas. They were the king and Queen of
late night TV until it all came crashing down. Johnny
Carson reigned supreme as the host of The Tonight Show,

(00:30):
and by his side was Joan Rivers, his trusted protege.
But in nineteen eighty six, Joan did the unthinkable. Here
with the story is Mark Malkoff, author of In Love
with Johnny Carson. Take it Away, Mark.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Johnny was secure enough that he would let anybody guest
host the show that he thought would be interesting. Johnny
felt he needed rest from the show to do the
best that he did, So would be anybody from Golfer
Arnold Palmer to Hogan's hero star Bob Cray, to Don
Rickles to Michael Landon guest hosting the show. You would

(01:05):
have Kirk Douglass, a big movie star, guest host the show.
Then you would have Quarterback from the Jets Joe Namath
guest host. You never knew who was going to be
guest hosting the show. Joan Rivers in nineteen sixty five,
probably had the best comedic debut.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
You know, in the last few years, you find out,
especially in television, people who usually write comedy material for
other people, comedy writers, that is, they are not usually
amusing themselves. I don't know why, but here's a young
lady who who not only writes funny, she is funny herself.
Would you welcome place, Joan Rivers.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
She went on Johnny's show, she was introduced as a
female comedy writer. She was writing for a TV show
called Candid Camera, which was a hidden camera show, and
she went on the show and Johnny told her that night,
I have a feeling you're going to be a big star.
Joan Rivers. The next day was Harold and the Press
is the biggest comedic female find since Carol Burnett. Back

(02:00):
with Johnny less than two weeks later and Jones life change.
Johnny loved Joan. In nineteen eighty two, Johnny decided, I
want to have a permanent guest host, and that's going
to be Joan Rivers. Joan ended up breaking Frank Sinatra's record.
It was either in Atlantic City or Las Vegas, and
she became one of the highest paid entertainers in Las

(02:23):
Vegas and Atlantic City. Because she was the permanent guest
host on The Tonight Show and Johnny absolutely loved her.
Miss Rivers was able to get her own show opposite
Johnny on the Fox Network, which had just started, and
she launched that in nineteen eighty six. Barry Diller, who
was the head of Fox, had told me that he
had told Miss Rivers, you need to tell Johnny you

(02:46):
were going to be competing against him. Barry Diller played
in a poker game with Johnny Carson was friends with him.
It was Neil Simon, Chevy Chase, Carl Reiner, Steve Martin,
and Barry Diller told Joan, you to tell Johnny this.
Rivers did not tell Johnny and he found out the
day be work that mimss Rivers was to announce an

(03:07):
press conference and was devastated.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
Carson, as you know is going off this week and
I wasn't asked here I go. I wasn't asked to
come on and say goodbye, or wasn't.

Speaker 5 (03:17):
Asked in any way, shape or form.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
See part of that with NBC, even though we did
call and when it had gone down with me and
with Johnny, Carson was something private if I left, as
you know, do my own show. And as we get
cause I get more and more sentimental peoples who coming
up and saying me, Carson, Carson, Carson, some of you
may remember as the first woman ever hosted the show permanently.

Speaker 5 (03:40):
And it was a lot of steps in my life.
And I had come out of no way of one
passive put his arm around me on my first shot.
I had been brought up seven times, by the way,
and the girl from Marchmont throwing very hard to be
a comedian when ladies were not comedians. We go back
to nineteen sixty six and my first sight on the show.
I've been working as an office temp and he had gone

(04:01):
to do the show and that night Carson said to me,
You're going to be a star.

Speaker 4 (04:06):
And I was so stupid and young.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
I looked drad.

Speaker 5 (04:09):
I didn't know who was talking to But I just
want to say, because they won't let me say it
on the tonight show. The show changed my life. I
am totally grateful. I wouldn't be wearing this watch, I
wouldn't be wearing this Shohn, But I said I wouldn't
be having this show.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
But at him, he was very, very hurt that somebody
he gave the big break would not tell him to
his face that she was going to compete.

Speaker 6 (04:29):
It was horrible for me. And when the deal was
going to be announced, the first one I called was
Carson and he hung up on me and never spoke
to me again. Right before the deal was going to
be asked, she said, Johnny, it's Joan, and I think
of leaving the show. I have my own show at
Fox and click. So then I called him back and

(04:50):
I said Johnny, and he clicked down again. Would not
be killing, but it became business. He became what he was,
what we all are. Rawson didn't become Johnny. Dawson didn't
get himself out of Nebraska because he was a sweet kid.
You get out because you have drive. Johnny was a tough,
aggressive killer. That's how he got to be Johnny Carson

(05:14):
and I look back and I think maybe I should
have just gone and asked Johnny.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Everybody said would have said, I'm happy for to you.
I wish you all the best, but I would advise
you against it. Johnny was concerned that her style would
just not work. Every night every five weeks. It worked,
but Joan Rivers would make fun of Elizabeth Taylor's weight
and do a lot of cruel jokes and didn't think
it would work every single night, and it didn't. The
thing that Johnny Carson had his heart broken even more

(05:40):
is Joan Rivers tried to take Johnny's producer, Peter Lesally,
every talent coordinator to that Johnny had was offered double
their salary to go to Miss Rivers's show, and he
could not believe that the woman that he mentored would
try to take his staff and he never talked to
her again. Miss Rivers. After nine or ten months, her
show ended because Barry Diller, was the head of Fox,

(06:00):
told Miss Rivers that she needed to remove her husband,
Edgar Rosenberg, who's producer of the show, and Joan Rivers
said she wouldn't do it, and then Barry Diller said
that you're going to be fired. She thought mister Dilla's bluffing.
He wasn't. Miss Rivers was removed as the host of
the Late Show on Fox. Two months later. Edgar Rosenberg
took his own life. But Joan Rivers, even though that

(06:21):
they had their issues, would always say Johnny was the
best straight man in the history of the business.

Speaker 6 (06:25):
Johnny Carson was the best straight man ever. He knew
you were going. He knew when to come in and
say how fat was she?

Speaker 5 (06:36):
He knew when not.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
To say it.

Speaker 6 (06:38):
No, Well, my wedding night was a disaster.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
You know that a lot of men smoke after they
make love, egg of smoke during Now.

Speaker 6 (06:44):
That's asked me for a like, do you think that's nice?
I say, getting yourself in the dashboard, what's the matter?
It was an immedia connection. You knew you were bringing
your little gift to him of a joke, and you
knew who's going to open it up.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
I must say publicly, you always compliment me on this show,
telling you that jewel so much to the Tonight Show
and so will work to you, not to the Night
Show to you.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
And a special thanks to Mark Malkoff his book In
Love with Johnny Carson, One obsessive fans journey to find
the genius behind the legend, and my goodness, the suicide
of her husband Edgar a Shakespearean tragedy. Here on Our
American Stories. This is Lee Habib, host of our American Stories.

(07:40):
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