September 10, 2025 • 30 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, James Madison rarely chased the spotlight, and he knew his character flaws. He was short, balding, awkward, and didn’t always play well in group settings. Yet despite his stature, his big ideas built and shaped America. He drafted the Bill of Rights, argued for ratification in The Federalist Papers, and turned quiet conviction into lasting policy through partnerships with Washington, Jefferson, and Monroe. His marriage to Dolley Madison added another kind of influence—one that worked in rooms where politics met people. David O. Stewart, author of Madison's Gift, shares the story of how Madison earned the title “Father of the Constitution” and how his humility often obscured his achievements. We'd like to thank the U.S. National Archives for granting us access to this audio.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Lee Habib and this is our American stories,
our fourth President. James Madison is often considered a forgotten founder,
and that's a shame, as his words have echoed through
the ages. After all, he was the man who wrote
the sentence quote if men were angels, no government would
be necessary unquote, and the Bill of Rights. He's the
(00:32):
author of the Bill of Rights too. Chances are he
still affects your life today. Here to tell the story
of Madison and his partnerships that changed America is David O. Stewart,
author of Madison's Gift. We'd like to thank the National
Archives for allowing us access to this audio.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Let's get into the story.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
He was so central to the nation's founding, more central
to the founding of the nation than anyone else other
than George Washington. And if you look at the list
of his achievements you get a feel for this. I think, first,
of course, is the calling of the Constitutional Convention, the
writing of the Constitution at that convention, the Federalist Papers
which were written to support the ratification of the Constitution.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
He was the leading member of the First Congress.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
He wrote the Bill of Rights and secured their adoption
I'm only halfway through my list yet. He was co
founder of the first American political party. In the pivotal
election of eighteen hundred, he was the co architect of
the transfer of government from the Federalist Party of John
Adams to Thomas Jefferson as leader of the Republicans. It's
(01:41):
many times said that the true test of a representative
government is if you can have a peaceful transfer of
power between contending parties. And we did achieve that in
eighteen hundred. That's when we came of age. He was
Secretary of State for the Louisiana Purchase, which doubled the
size of the nation. He was our first wartime president
through the War of eighteen twelve, not always a glorious
(02:03):
chapter in our history, but one that was ended successfully enough.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I suppose it's the best way to say it.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
And he was perhaps our only two term president who
had a better second term than first term. Madison when
he left office was really acclaimed. He ended up being,
of all of our presidents, the president for whom the
most cities, counties, and municipalities are named, more even than
Washington or Franklin. So we have this tremendous list of achievements.
(02:34):
But then there is the undeniable fact that Madison is
often ignored why he was short, He was skinny, He
had a soft voice, and in rooms that were filled
with noisy people like John Adams and Alexander Hamilton, or
(02:54):
with large and charismatic men like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, Madison.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Was pretty easy to miss.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
He was different from most great leaders. We think of
great leaders most often as men who have strong streaks
of narcissism. They need to be at the front of
the parade. They prefer to be on a white horse.
They crave recognition and acclaim. Madison had none of those qualities.
He disliked public events. He never became comfortable at them.
(03:26):
At his first inaugural ball, this is the pinnacle of
his political career. He has become President of the United States,
a nation he did so much to found. Madison says,
thank you very much, but I would rather be home
in bed. He was a man who cared about results,
not applause, about making the American experiment in self government
(03:47):
to success. His greatest achievements were really the fruit of partnerships.
It was almost as though he had taken what today
would be called a modern personality assessment, the sort of
thing organization like their people to do and turn them
into extroverts. Introverts isgjes or whatever, And that Madison was
(04:10):
able to conclude that he was in fact short and skinny,
and he had a soft voice, and he had zero charisma.
But if he was doing an honest self assessment, he
would have noticed some real powerful positives. He was smarter
than almost anybody he met.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
He had a rare appetite for hard work.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
He had a gift for making contact and connecting with people,
an extraordinary political judgment and foresight. So why not take
those gifts and marry them to someone else who has
the gifts he doesn't have. Now, we don't know that
Madison actually did that, made such an assessment, stared at
(04:55):
the mirror.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
For the requisite period of seconds.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
He was a man, man who understood the power of partnership,
and they were formed with very different people. Alexander Hamilton
a very different character. Hamilton was flashy, he was charismatic.
He was effectively orphaned at age thirteen. He came from nothing,
had to make his own way in the world. Madison,
(05:21):
by contrast, was a fortunate son, the inheritor of a
great estate, the eldest son of a man who owned
five thousand acres of land. He never had his own
home until he was forty three. He lived with his
mom until he was seventy eight. Dolly was very tolerant.
But they recognized something in each other when they first
(05:44):
met each other as the two youngest men serving in
the Confederation Congress. This is in seventeen eighty three, when
we're still operating under the Articles of Confederation. I think
they recognized in each other first great intelligence, but also
we shared impatience to make the United States a great
nation and a true nation, which in seventeen eighty three
(06:07):
we really weren't. There was much talk and serious talk
we should simply form three nations, New England and the
Middle States, and the South would be separate nations, sort
of like Europe, maybe even a fourth nation on the
other side of the Appalachian Mountains. Hamilton, who took a
backseat to nobody for impatience, had first decreed the need
(06:28):
to have a national convention to rewrite the Articles of
Confederation before the articles had even been adopted.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
But Madison came.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Along after a couple of years and agreed with him
that that was the only practical way to deal with
the problems that the country was having. They collaborated in
a campaign to call the Constitutional Convention in the summer
of seventeen eighty seven, and then they collaborated again, most
importantly in the campaign to ratify the Constitution. We often
forget what a close struggle that was. They jointly wrote
(06:59):
the Federalist Page. Papers wrote them as a propaganda piece,
but they've endured as really the finest writing about political
philosophy that any Americans have ever produced. And then they
went out as practical politicians and each won ratification in
their conventions Madison in Virginia and Hamilton and New York.
(07:21):
The second partner is, of course George Washington. He was
the great man of America. He had won the Revolutionary War.
There's a wonderful anecdote that when King George the Third
heard that Washington, after winning the war, had resigned his
commission and gone back to be a farmer at Mount Vernon,
the King.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Had said, if that's true, he's the greatest.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Man in the world.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
And Washington had won extraordinary trust of every American. He
was the trump card of American politics. Madison could see that,
and he could see that if he was an ally
of George Washington, the things he wanted to get done
could get done better. Washington was the indispensable man, so
Madison made himself the indispensable man to the indispensable man.
(08:08):
When Washington wanted legislation through the Virginia Assembly, Madison would
make it happen.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
He would be the leader.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
If he needed legislation through Congress, the Confederation Congress, Madison
would make that happen too. And over a period of
five years, Madison became Washington's closest political confidant. He spent
days at Mount Vernon just closeted with the General Washington's diary,
and he always kept a diary. His whole life, would
simply say, spent today in conversation with mister Madison. Indeed,
(08:40):
during the First Congress, Madison is often referred to as
having served as Washington's Prime Minister. Their most important achievement,
most durable achievement, I think, was.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
The Bill of Rights.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
There's a wonderful moment in Washington's first administration when he's
just coming to office. He needs an inaugural address, asks
Madison to write him an inaugural to address which is done,
and it asks for only one thing, a Bill of
Rights constitutional amendments to protect individual rights. Congress wants to
write an answer to Washington as an a gesture of respect,
(09:16):
so they asked Madison to write the answer. Well, Washington's
a little flustered, so he wants to write a courteous reply,
so he asks Madison to write the reply.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
The early government was in.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Many ways of conversation among Madison, but the Bill of
Rights comes the closest to being Madison's solo achievement.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
He wrote them, he got.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Them through Congress, he made it happen. But he also
made it happen with Washington's essential support.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
When we come back more of the life of James Madison,
here on our American stories, and we returned to our
(10:20):
American stories and the story of James Madison and the
partnerships he forged that changed America.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Let's return to the story. Here again is David O. Stewart.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Now the third figure is Thomas Jefferson, his soulmate. They
came from the same background. They grew up thirty miles apart.
Both from the same background. Jefferson inherited his three thousand
acres when he was fourteen, not when he was forty nine.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
That was their biggest difference.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
They were both bookworms, both interested in everything, both knew
something about almost everything.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Their correspondence to each other.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Is a delight if they write about everything science, philosophy, animals, crops,
and politics. Jefferson was more the visionary. He was not
good on details. Madison had a very analytical mind and
was extremely good at that sort of thing. And Jefferson
(11:24):
adopted a practice through his career of when he would
have an interesting idea that excited him, he would first
run it by Madison. And Madison was not shy about saying,
usually in a very polite way, that's a wonderful idea,
but have you thought about these nine problems with it?
And Jefferson would take his advice. They both became very
(11:47):
disenchanted with Hamilton's financial system.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
This is the great switch.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Madison enters Congress as George Washington's Prime Minister, but after
a year and then some.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
He discovers that the Secretary of the Treasury.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Has a financial program that he can't support, and so
Madison goes into opposition with Jefferson in order to oppose
to Hamiltonian policy, which they found unduly centralized the government.
They thought it introduced financial instability. We had a number
of financial panics under the Hamiltonian system. They had to
(12:24):
create a political vehicle for this opposition, and although they
both despised partisan politics, they created our first political party.
I think they would both be appalled to be remembered
for it, but they did it very assiduously and very
well dominated American politics for the next six decades. Now,
(12:48):
Monroe was a bit of a revelation to me. I
had not studied him much. I was really discouraged at
first to discover just how many people who were his contemporaries,
and felt it necessary to recall he really was a
little dim. This was not what I was looking for.
He was a military type. He had been a soldier
(13:08):
as a very young man in the Revolution. He always
had a military bearing. He was a strapping six foot
or charismatic, not an intellectual. His letters with Madison are friendly,
they're warm, they're collegial. He was a very canny politician.
But we don't get a lot of political philosophy. This
is not what James Monroe did they were sometimes rivals. Indeed,
(13:33):
they ran against each other in the first election for
Congress in seventeen eighty nine. They are the only future
presidents whoever opposed each other for a lower office. It
was a bit of jerrymandering. Patrick Henry had actually set
it up so Madison would have to run against Monroe.
Henry had a real vendetta against Madison, who was hoping
to get him beaten. Madison won fairly handily, but then
(13:57):
nearly twenty years later on Madison as a candidate for president,
Monroe stands as a candidate against him, and actually is
on the ballot in eighteen oh eight. He's not a
serious candidate, but it was a measure that they had
had a serious falling out after many years of close relationship.
(14:18):
And indeed they didn't speak for two years or have
any contact at all. But Madison reached a point as
president in his first administration when he thought it was
essential that the United States go to war with Britain.
Britain had been seizing our ships at sea for years.
They had been taking our sailors and pressing them into
the British navy, and Madison simply thought, for our own self,
(14:43):
esteem for our own respectability as a nation. We could
no longer just take it. But Madison was not a
man anybody would think of as a military sort. He
needed somebody to put a little steel into his administration,
and Monroe was the perfect ca character. He had great
experience in Europe as well in credibility as a diplomat.
(15:04):
He had negotiated the Louisiana purchase, so he reached out
to Monroe. They were able to patch up their differences.
He brought Monroe into his administration as Secretary of State,
where he was an essential pillar of.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
The government through the war.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
In fact, for periods of the war he served as
both Secretary of State and Secretary of War simultaneously, a
fairly neat trick. Now his final partner is the one
I want to talk about most and in many ways
the most interesting one, and that's.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Dolly, of course, his wife of forty two years. She
was the star.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Madison would never be the star. It just wasn't in
his skill set. She brought charisma in warmth, great charm well.
Madison hated the spotlight. Dolly blew in the spotlight.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
She loved it. She was a natural.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
She started out in life as Dolly.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Pained and like James, she grew up on a southern plantation,
although it was a significant difference.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
She was raised a Quaker on instruction for the Quaker hierarchy.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
When she was a young teenager, her father sold the
family slaves and moved to Philadelphia and tried to start
a business there. His business failed, but Dolly flourished. She
was tall for the time. She had an hourglass figure,
a mischievous smile. You could sometimes see it in her images,
almost all of them. Black hair, creamy complexion, blue eyes.
(16:40):
Men liked her a lot, and I always like to
point out that say what she will about James Madison's
small stature is receding hairline, his social reserve and awkwardness.
Of all the founders, he had the hottest wife.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Now. Dolly married a Quake lawyer. She had a first marriage.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And had two sons with him, but her husband and
one son died in a yellow fever epidemic in seventeen
ninety three. As a single mother, she was in great demand.
She did not want for suitors at all, but one
of the most ardent was James Madison, and the story
is that he saw her either on the street or
at some social event, and essentially said who is that woman,
(17:25):
and learned how she was and arranged for his discovered
that his good friend from college, Aaron Burr, was renting
a room from her mother, so he arranged for Aaron
Burr to introduce them, and he was seventeen years older.
That was not viewed as a great obstacle in those days.
I'm not sure it is today either. And on the
(17:49):
occasion of that first meeting, I love the note that
Dolly sent to a friend that afternoon, which reveals both
her playful nature and her sophistication, because she writes to
her friend that she is going to meet the great
little Madison.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
She really captures him because.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Of course he is short, he's balding, but he also
was great, who was wealthy, he was kind, he was
intelligent and a Jane Austin era, when the match you
made was so important for a woman's life, you could
do a great deal worse than James Madison.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
And you've been listening to David O.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Stewart, author of Madison's Gift, telling one heck of a
story about James Madison, and my goodness, that partnership between
Jefferson and Madison. And by the way, they were soulmates.
They grew up the same way, very close to one another.
I went to the University of Virginia School of Law,
and Jefferson's home there it is up in Monticello on
(18:46):
the hill.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Madison's home not much farther away.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And there they were together forming America's first political party
because of their opposition to Hamilton's financial vision for am
Maria and that centralization it required. Thus formed the Republican Party,
and thus formed the next chapter in Madison's life. More
(19:10):
of the story of James Madison here on our American stories,
(19:38):
and we returned to our American stories and the final
portion of our story on James Madison and the partnerships
he forged with others that changed this country. When we
last left off, David O. Stewart was telling us the
story of Madison's most important partnership, one he had with
his vivacious wife Dollar.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Let's return to the story.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
You know, the political philosophers have sort of drained the
life out of him. To some extent, it could be flirtatious.
His few letters to Dolly, they were very rarely apart,
but they did write some letters to her.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
They're warm and loving long after the first.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Infatuation would have cooled.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Although the Madisons never had children of their own and
are sometimes imagined as this semi.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Sad, childless couple, they had.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Dozens of nieces and nephews, upwards of fifty as near
as I can tell, and they were often with them
for weeks on end, sometimes months. Dolly would always see
that the young ladies were introduced to suitable potential matches.
It's also often missed that the Madisons were a lot
of fun in small groups. James was quick with a
(20:46):
quip and humorous anecdote. Dolly was always vivacious and engaging.
A niece called her a foe to dullness. One of
the entertaining stories is apparently Dolly and James would run
races against each other.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
It was in their retirement, so they weren't looking for
a long.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Racetrack, but it gives you a feel for the spirit
they had with each other. Indeed, there is an account
that in retirement Dolly, who was always a bit taller
than James and became a good bit wider than James,
would load him on her back and carry him around
the mansion, but I want to emphasize that their fun
(21:26):
had a purpose. Through James's eight years as Secretary of
State and aid as president, Dolly set a bright social tone.
She always sought out the most awkward, uncomfortable person in
the room to put him or her at their ease.
She understood the need to provide glamour and charisma to
the government, which again was not something James could do.
(21:49):
She was talled at the time sometimes the Lady Presidentess.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
We didn't use the term first lady. Yet.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
She had a famous exchange with Henry Claig, which may
have been apocryphal, and he was a good friend of hers.
They played cards together, they took snuff together, and he
is reported once to have said, everyone loves missus Madison,
and she of course responded, that's because missus Madison loves everybody.
And it wasn't strictly speaking true. She actually was better
(22:17):
at keeping a grudge than James was, but it.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
Seemed to be true.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
And as we know, on politics, that's far more important
than what is true. The Madison's freely mixed foreigners and
federalists and Republicans, producing a social swirl that allowed the
sinews of policy and politics to form in an informal setting.
Sometimes that's a terribly valuable opportunity. Office seekers would come
(22:47):
to Dolly and ask her to intercede with the president
to get jobs, and as near as we can.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Tell, she was pretty good at it.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
In fact, she really was a political partner, always a
loyal and sure footage, one who not only warmed his
private life but also helped him forge a new Republican.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Style for the nation.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Indeed, the losing Federalist candidate in eighteen o eight claimed
that he had lost to mister and missus Madison. I
might have had a better chance had I faced mister
Madison alone. Now, many of you will recall Dolly's shining
moment during the War of eighteen twelve, which came actually
on James's.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
Worst day, probably of his entire career.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
In late August of eighteen fourteen, the British Army had
been disembarked from ships in the Chesapeake Bay marched on Washington.
There was a very brief skirmish at Bladensburg, sometimes referred
to at the time as the Bladensburg Races because our
militia ran so quickly.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Madison had actually gone to.
Speaker 5 (23:52):
The battlefield to try to rally the troops.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
And inspire them. But it, just as I said, was
not something he was going to be able to do.
Militia wasn't really going to ever be inspired anyway. So
the British marched into Washington and they burned the public buildings.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
But there was a shining moment.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
Which is right before the British got there.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Dolly remembered to take down the portrait of George Washington.
We were a republic, we were not a monarchy. We
didn't have crown jewels, but we did cherish the memory
of George Washington. And this was a presence of mind,
a spirit which was much valued through the country. James
(24:37):
Madison was reviled by many of his countrymen after the
burning of Washington's public buildings.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
He was called the coward repeatedly, but people kept a.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Warm spot in their hearts for Dolly. Now their retirement
at Montpelier was generally a happy one. James lived for almost
twenty years in retirement. He lived to be eighty five.
From a fellow who was sick and much of his life,
it was a surprise to him. In his final years,
(25:09):
James became increasingly decrepit. He spent his days in his
dressing gown and nightcap, but his mind remained bright, his
intellect sharp. These years were hard on Dolly. She had
to take care of them all the time. She wrote
once that his hands and fingers are still so swelled
and sore as to be nearly useless.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
But I lend him mine. He could always be happy.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
With ideas, or at least occupied with ideas and newspapers
and books. She needed people, and it was hard for
her to be isolated without them. When he died in
eighteen thirty six at the age of eighty five, she
moved back to Washington City and re entered the social world,
and she lived long enough to have her photograph taken
(25:55):
in the Zachary Taylor administration. Her reentry into Washington's social
life was greatly applauded. She had a wonderful time for
a few years, but then the money ran out. She
had many gifts, but thrift was not among them. Financial
management was not among them. She had her own son,
Madison's stepson, who was a bit of a wastrel and
(26:17):
burned up a lot of money too. She ended up
in a sort of genteel poverty, with only a couple
of slaves who were sold.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
Upon her death.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Now having held forth on two of Madison's productive partnerships,
or just one of them, actually, I want to close
with a note about Madison himself. I do think he
was able to form these partnerships because of who he was.
He was not the dry creature of intellect that we
sometimes think of. He was referred to by a contemporary
(26:47):
as I've never seen so much mind in so little matter.
But he had a genuineness and an integrity and open heartedness.
These qualities, for me, shine through in the way he
received the news of the Treaty of Ghent, which is
the agreement that ended the War of eighteen twelve. As
I said, he pushed the nation into war, and it
(27:11):
didn't go terribly well much of the time. It's February thirteen,
eighteen fifteen. He's actually living an Octagon House, which still
stands over on Seventeenth Street.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
The rumor arrives that the treaty has.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Been signed with Britain, and a Pennsylvania senator rushes to
Octagon House to ask Madison if it's true.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
The senator found the house dark.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
The President sitting solitary in his parlor, in perfect tranquility,
not even a servant in waiting. The Senator asked if
the rumor was true. Madison bade him sit down. I
will tell you all I know, he said, then confirmed
that he thought there was peace, but he had no
official confirmation. The Senator recalled with some wonder, but he
(27:54):
called the President's self command on the occasion and greatness
of mind. The war of eighteen twelve truly had been
mister Madison's war. As his opponents called it, it was
about principles, not gain. It was fought with a quiet tenacity,
sometimes ineptley, and with endless tolerance of those who opposed it.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
As a friend of Madison's.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Wrote years later, the war had been conducted in perfect
keeping with the character of the President, of whom it
may be said that no one had to a greater
extent firmness, mildness, and self possession. And when peace came,
Madison welcomed it in a darkened house, alone with his
thoughts and.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
A special thanks to David O.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Stewart, author of Madison's Gift, and to the US National
Archives for allowing us.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Access to this speech. He gave there, and we love
doing this.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
We love taking speeches made in the citadels of learning
here in America and bringing him to the wider public.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
And my goodness, the story you heard about all of these.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Partnerships, starting with Hamilton moving to Jefferson, then to Monroe,
and then that last partnership, Dolly, And my goodness, what's storytelling.
I could just picture in my mind this playful, beautiful
woman hauling her husband on her back because she was
bigger than him, and just running around just for some levity,
(29:26):
just for some fun. She brought elegance and style and
fun to the administration. Things her husband lacked, but things
she had. Attributes she had in bounty. And when her
husband died, she was lonely and reintroduced herself to greater
society and had the foresight to save that magnificent portrait
(29:48):
of Washington as the British were sacking and burning.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Washington, DC.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
The story of James Madison in the end, the story
of the nation's founding.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Here are now American stories
This is Lee Habib and this is our American stories,
our fourth President. James Madison is often considered a forgotten founder,
and that's a shame, as his words have echoed through
the ages. After all, he was the man who wrote
the sentence quote if men were angels, no government would
be necessary unquote, and the Bill of Rights. He's the
(00:32):
author of the Bill of Rights too. Chances are he
still affects your life today. Here to tell the story
of Madison and his partnerships that changed America is David O. Stewart,
author of Madison's Gift. We'd like to thank the National
Archives for allowing us access to this audio.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Let's get into the story.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
He was so central to the nation's founding, more central
to the founding of the nation than anyone else other
than George Washington. And if you look at the list
of his achievements you get a feel for this. I think, first,
of course, is the calling of the Constitutional Convention, the
writing of the Constitution at that convention, the Federalist Papers
which were written to support the ratification of the Constitution.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
He was the leading member of the First Congress.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
He wrote the Bill of Rights and secured their adoption
I'm only halfway through my list yet. He was co
founder of the first American political party. In the pivotal
election of eighteen hundred, he was the co architect of
the transfer of government from the Federalist Party of John
Adams to Thomas Jefferson as leader of the Republicans. It's
(01:41):
many times said that the true test of a representative
government is if you can have a peaceful transfer of
power between contending parties. And we did achieve that in
eighteen hundred. That's when we came of age. He was
Secretary of State for the Louisiana Purchase, which doubled the
size of the nation. He was our first wartime president
through the War of eighteen twelve, not always a glorious
(02:03):
chapter in our history, but one that was ended successfully enough.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I suppose it's the best way to say it.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
And he was perhaps our only two term president who
had a better second term than first term. Madison when
he left office was really acclaimed. He ended up being,
of all of our presidents, the president for whom the
most cities, counties, and municipalities are named, more even than
Washington or Franklin. So we have this tremendous list of achievements.
(02:34):
But then there is the undeniable fact that Madison is
often ignored why he was short, He was skinny, He
had a soft voice, and in rooms that were filled
with noisy people like John Adams and Alexander Hamilton, or
(02:54):
with large and charismatic men like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, Madison.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Was pretty easy to miss.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
He was different from most great leaders. We think of
great leaders most often as men who have strong streaks
of narcissism. They need to be at the front of
the parade. They prefer to be on a white horse.
They crave recognition and acclaim. Madison had none of those qualities.
He disliked public events. He never became comfortable at them.
(03:26):
At his first inaugural ball, this is the pinnacle of
his political career. He has become President of the United States,
a nation he did so much to found. Madison says,
thank you very much, but I would rather be home
in bed. He was a man who cared about results,
not applause, about making the American experiment in self government
(03:47):
to success. His greatest achievements were really the fruit of partnerships.
It was almost as though he had taken what today
would be called a modern personality assessment, the sort of
thing organization like their people to do and turn them
into extroverts. Introverts isgjes or whatever, And that Madison was
(04:10):
able to conclude that he was in fact short and skinny,
and he had a soft voice, and he had zero charisma.
But if he was doing an honest self assessment, he
would have noticed some real powerful positives. He was smarter
than almost anybody he met.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
He had a rare appetite for hard work.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
He had a gift for making contact and connecting with people,
an extraordinary political judgment and foresight. So why not take
those gifts and marry them to someone else who has
the gifts he doesn't have. Now, we don't know that
Madison actually did that, made such an assessment, stared at
(04:55):
the mirror.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
For the requisite period of seconds.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
He was a man, man who understood the power of partnership,
and they were formed with very different people. Alexander Hamilton
a very different character. Hamilton was flashy, he was charismatic.
He was effectively orphaned at age thirteen. He came from nothing,
had to make his own way in the world. Madison,
(05:21):
by contrast, was a fortunate son, the inheritor of a
great estate, the eldest son of a man who owned
five thousand acres of land. He never had his own
home until he was forty three. He lived with his
mom until he was seventy eight. Dolly was very tolerant.
But they recognized something in each other when they first
(05:44):
met each other as the two youngest men serving in
the Confederation Congress. This is in seventeen eighty three, when
we're still operating under the Articles of Confederation. I think
they recognized in each other first great intelligence, but also
we shared impatience to make the United States a great
nation and a true nation, which in seventeen eighty three
(06:07):
we really weren't. There was much talk and serious talk
we should simply form three nations, New England and the
Middle States, and the South would be separate nations, sort
of like Europe, maybe even a fourth nation on the
other side of the Appalachian Mountains. Hamilton, who took a
backseat to nobody for impatience, had first decreed the need
(06:28):
to have a national convention to rewrite the Articles of
Confederation before the articles had even been adopted.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
But Madison came.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Along after a couple of years and agreed with him
that that was the only practical way to deal with
the problems that the country was having. They collaborated in
a campaign to call the Constitutional Convention in the summer
of seventeen eighty seven, and then they collaborated again, most
importantly in the campaign to ratify the Constitution. We often
forget what a close struggle that was. They jointly wrote
(06:59):
the Federalist Page. Papers wrote them as a propaganda piece,
but they've endured as really the finest writing about political
philosophy that any Americans have ever produced. And then they
went out as practical politicians and each won ratification in
their conventions Madison in Virginia and Hamilton and New York.
(07:21):
The second partner is, of course George Washington. He was
the great man of America. He had won the Revolutionary War.
There's a wonderful anecdote that when King George the Third
heard that Washington, after winning the war, had resigned his
commission and gone back to be a farmer at Mount Vernon,
the King.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Had said, if that's true, he's the greatest.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Man in the world.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
And Washington had won extraordinary trust of every American. He
was the trump card of American politics. Madison could see that,
and he could see that if he was an ally
of George Washington, the things he wanted to get done
could get done better. Washington was the indispensable man, so
Madison made himself the indispensable man to the indispensable man.
(08:08):
When Washington wanted legislation through the Virginia Assembly, Madison would
make it happen.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
He would be the leader.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
If he needed legislation through Congress, the Confederation Congress, Madison
would make that happen too. And over a period of
five years, Madison became Washington's closest political confidant. He spent
days at Mount Vernon just closeted with the General Washington's diary,
and he always kept a diary. His whole life, would
simply say, spent today in conversation with mister Madison. Indeed,
(08:40):
during the First Congress, Madison is often referred to as
having served as Washington's Prime Minister. Their most important achievement,
most durable achievement, I think, was.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
The Bill of Rights.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
There's a wonderful moment in Washington's first administration when he's
just coming to office. He needs an inaugural address, asks
Madison to write him an inaugural to address which is done,
and it asks for only one thing, a Bill of
Rights constitutional amendments to protect individual rights. Congress wants to
write an answer to Washington as an a gesture of respect,
(09:16):
so they asked Madison to write the answer. Well, Washington's
a little flustered, so he wants to write a courteous reply,
so he asks Madison to write the reply.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
The early government was in.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Many ways of conversation among Madison, but the Bill of
Rights comes the closest to being Madison's solo achievement.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
He wrote them, he got.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Them through Congress, he made it happen. But he also
made it happen with Washington's essential support.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
When we come back more of the life of James Madison,
here on our American stories, and we returned to our
(10:20):
American stories and the story of James Madison and the
partnerships he forged that changed America.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Let's return to the story. Here again is David O. Stewart.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Now the third figure is Thomas Jefferson, his soulmate. They
came from the same background. They grew up thirty miles apart.
Both from the same background. Jefferson inherited his three thousand
acres when he was fourteen, not when he was forty nine.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
That was their biggest difference.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
They were both bookworms, both interested in everything, both knew
something about almost everything.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Their correspondence to each other.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Is a delight if they write about everything science, philosophy, animals, crops,
and politics. Jefferson was more the visionary. He was not
good on details. Madison had a very analytical mind and
was extremely good at that sort of thing. And Jefferson
(11:24):
adopted a practice through his career of when he would
have an interesting idea that excited him, he would first
run it by Madison. And Madison was not shy about saying,
usually in a very polite way, that's a wonderful idea,
but have you thought about these nine problems with it?
And Jefferson would take his advice. They both became very
(11:47):
disenchanted with Hamilton's financial system.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
This is the great switch.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Madison enters Congress as George Washington's Prime Minister, but after
a year and then some.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
He discovers that the Secretary of the Treasury.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Has a financial program that he can't support, and so
Madison goes into opposition with Jefferson in order to oppose
to Hamiltonian policy, which they found unduly centralized the government.
They thought it introduced financial instability. We had a number
of financial panics under the Hamiltonian system. They had to
(12:24):
create a political vehicle for this opposition, and although they
both despised partisan politics, they created our first political party.
I think they would both be appalled to be remembered
for it, but they did it very assiduously and very
well dominated American politics for the next six decades. Now,
(12:48):
Monroe was a bit of a revelation to me. I
had not studied him much. I was really discouraged at
first to discover just how many people who were his contemporaries,
and felt it necessary to recall he really was a
little dim. This was not what I was looking for.
He was a military type. He had been a soldier
(13:08):
as a very young man in the Revolution. He always
had a military bearing. He was a strapping six foot
or charismatic, not an intellectual. His letters with Madison are friendly,
they're warm, they're collegial. He was a very canny politician.
But we don't get a lot of political philosophy. This
is not what James Monroe did they were sometimes rivals. Indeed,
(13:33):
they ran against each other in the first election for
Congress in seventeen eighty nine. They are the only future
presidents whoever opposed each other for a lower office. It
was a bit of jerrymandering. Patrick Henry had actually set
it up so Madison would have to run against Monroe.
Henry had a real vendetta against Madison, who was hoping
to get him beaten. Madison won fairly handily, but then
(13:57):
nearly twenty years later on Madison as a candidate for president,
Monroe stands as a candidate against him, and actually is
on the ballot in eighteen oh eight. He's not a
serious candidate, but it was a measure that they had
had a serious falling out after many years of close relationship.
(14:18):
And indeed they didn't speak for two years or have
any contact at all. But Madison reached a point as
president in his first administration when he thought it was
essential that the United States go to war with Britain.
Britain had been seizing our ships at sea for years.
They had been taking our sailors and pressing them into
the British navy, and Madison simply thought, for our own self,
(14:43):
esteem for our own respectability as a nation. We could
no longer just take it. But Madison was not a
man anybody would think of as a military sort. He
needed somebody to put a little steel into his administration,
and Monroe was the perfect ca character. He had great
experience in Europe as well in credibility as a diplomat.
(15:04):
He had negotiated the Louisiana purchase, so he reached out
to Monroe. They were able to patch up their differences.
He brought Monroe into his administration as Secretary of State,
where he was an essential pillar of.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
The government through the war.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
In fact, for periods of the war he served as
both Secretary of State and Secretary of War simultaneously, a
fairly neat trick. Now his final partner is the one
I want to talk about most and in many ways
the most interesting one, and that's.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Dolly, of course, his wife of forty two years. She
was the star.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Madison would never be the star. It just wasn't in
his skill set. She brought charisma in warmth, great charm well.
Madison hated the spotlight. Dolly blew in the spotlight.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
She loved it. She was a natural.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
She started out in life as Dolly.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Pained and like James, she grew up on a southern plantation,
although it was a significant difference.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
She was raised a Quaker on instruction for the Quaker hierarchy.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
When she was a young teenager, her father sold the
family slaves and moved to Philadelphia and tried to start
a business there. His business failed, but Dolly flourished. She
was tall for the time. She had an hourglass figure,
a mischievous smile. You could sometimes see it in her images,
almost all of them. Black hair, creamy complexion, blue eyes.
(16:40):
Men liked her a lot, and I always like to
point out that say what she will about James Madison's
small stature is receding hairline, his social reserve and awkwardness.
Of all the founders, he had the hottest wife.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Now. Dolly married a Quake lawyer. She had a first marriage.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And had two sons with him, but her husband and
one son died in a yellow fever epidemic in seventeen
ninety three. As a single mother, she was in great demand.
She did not want for suitors at all, but one
of the most ardent was James Madison, and the story
is that he saw her either on the street or
at some social event, and essentially said who is that woman,
(17:25):
and learned how she was and arranged for his discovered
that his good friend from college, Aaron Burr, was renting
a room from her mother, so he arranged for Aaron
Burr to introduce them, and he was seventeen years older.
That was not viewed as a great obstacle in those days.
I'm not sure it is today either. And on the
(17:49):
occasion of that first meeting, I love the note that
Dolly sent to a friend that afternoon, which reveals both
her playful nature and her sophistication, because she writes to
her friend that she is going to meet the great
little Madison.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
She really captures him because.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Of course he is short, he's balding, but he also
was great, who was wealthy, he was kind, he was
intelligent and a Jane Austin era, when the match you
made was so important for a woman's life, you could
do a great deal worse than James Madison.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
And you've been listening to David O.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Stewart, author of Madison's Gift, telling one heck of a
story about James Madison, and my goodness, that partnership between
Jefferson and Madison. And by the way, they were soulmates.
They grew up the same way, very close to one another.
I went to the University of Virginia School of Law,
and Jefferson's home there it is up in Monticello on
(18:46):
the hill.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Madison's home not much farther away.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And there they were together forming America's first political party
because of their opposition to Hamilton's financial vision for am
Maria and that centralization it required. Thus formed the Republican Party,
and thus formed the next chapter in Madison's life. More
(19:10):
of the story of James Madison here on our American stories,
(19:38):
and we returned to our American stories and the final
portion of our story on James Madison and the partnerships
he forged with others that changed this country. When we
last left off, David O. Stewart was telling us the
story of Madison's most important partnership, one he had with
his vivacious wife Dollar.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Let's return to the story.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
You know, the political philosophers have sort of drained the
life out of him. To some extent, it could be flirtatious.
His few letters to Dolly, they were very rarely apart,
but they did write some letters to her.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
They're warm and loving long after the first.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Infatuation would have cooled.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Although the Madisons never had children of their own and
are sometimes imagined as this semi.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Sad, childless couple, they had.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Dozens of nieces and nephews, upwards of fifty as near
as I can tell, and they were often with them
for weeks on end, sometimes months. Dolly would always see
that the young ladies were introduced to suitable potential matches.
It's also often missed that the Madisons were a lot
of fun in small groups. James was quick with a
(20:46):
quip and humorous anecdote. Dolly was always vivacious and engaging.
A niece called her a foe to dullness. One of
the entertaining stories is apparently Dolly and James would run
races against each other.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
It was in their retirement, so they weren't looking for
a long.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Racetrack, but it gives you a feel for the spirit
they had with each other. Indeed, there is an account
that in retirement Dolly, who was always a bit taller
than James and became a good bit wider than James,
would load him on her back and carry him around
the mansion, but I want to emphasize that their fun
(21:26):
had a purpose. Through James's eight years as Secretary of
State and aid as president, Dolly set a bright social tone.
She always sought out the most awkward, uncomfortable person in
the room to put him or her at their ease.
She understood the need to provide glamour and charisma to
the government, which again was not something James could do.
(21:49):
She was talled at the time sometimes the Lady Presidentess.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
We didn't use the term first lady. Yet.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
She had a famous exchange with Henry Claig, which may
have been apocryphal, and he was a good friend of hers.
They played cards together, they took snuff together, and he
is reported once to have said, everyone loves missus Madison,
and she of course responded, that's because missus Madison loves everybody.
And it wasn't strictly speaking true. She actually was better
(22:17):
at keeping a grudge than James was, but it.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
Seemed to be true.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
And as we know, on politics, that's far more important
than what is true. The Madison's freely mixed foreigners and
federalists and Republicans, producing a social swirl that allowed the
sinews of policy and politics to form in an informal setting.
Sometimes that's a terribly valuable opportunity. Office seekers would come
(22:47):
to Dolly and ask her to intercede with the president
to get jobs, and as near as we can.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Tell, she was pretty good at it.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
In fact, she really was a political partner, always a
loyal and sure footage, one who not only warmed his
private life but also helped him forge a new Republican.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Style for the nation.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Indeed, the losing Federalist candidate in eighteen o eight claimed
that he had lost to mister and missus Madison. I
might have had a better chance had I faced mister
Madison alone. Now, many of you will recall Dolly's shining
moment during the War of eighteen twelve, which came actually
on James's.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
Worst day, probably of his entire career.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
In late August of eighteen fourteen, the British Army had
been disembarked from ships in the Chesapeake Bay marched on Washington.
There was a very brief skirmish at Bladensburg, sometimes referred
to at the time as the Bladensburg Races because our
militia ran so quickly.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Madison had actually gone to.
Speaker 5 (23:52):
The battlefield to try to rally the troops.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
And inspire them. But it, just as I said, was
not something he was going to be able to do.
Militia wasn't really going to ever be inspired anyway. So
the British marched into Washington and they burned the public buildings.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
But there was a shining moment.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
Which is right before the British got there.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Dolly remembered to take down the portrait of George Washington.
We were a republic, we were not a monarchy. We
didn't have crown jewels, but we did cherish the memory
of George Washington. And this was a presence of mind,
a spirit which was much valued through the country. James
(24:37):
Madison was reviled by many of his countrymen after the
burning of Washington's public buildings.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
He was called the coward repeatedly, but people kept a.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Warm spot in their hearts for Dolly. Now their retirement
at Montpelier was generally a happy one. James lived for almost
twenty years in retirement. He lived to be eighty five.
From a fellow who was sick and much of his life,
it was a surprise to him. In his final years,
(25:09):
James became increasingly decrepit. He spent his days in his
dressing gown and nightcap, but his mind remained bright, his
intellect sharp. These years were hard on Dolly. She had
to take care of them all the time. She wrote
once that his hands and fingers are still so swelled
and sore as to be nearly useless.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
But I lend him mine. He could always be happy.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
With ideas, or at least occupied with ideas and newspapers
and books. She needed people, and it was hard for
her to be isolated without them. When he died in
eighteen thirty six at the age of eighty five, she
moved back to Washington City and re entered the social world,
and she lived long enough to have her photograph taken
(25:55):
in the Zachary Taylor administration. Her reentry into Washington's social
life was greatly applauded. She had a wonderful time for
a few years, but then the money ran out. She
had many gifts, but thrift was not among them. Financial
management was not among them. She had her own son,
Madison's stepson, who was a bit of a wastrel and
(26:17):
burned up a lot of money too. She ended up
in a sort of genteel poverty, with only a couple
of slaves who were sold.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
Upon her death.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Now having held forth on two of Madison's productive partnerships,
or just one of them, actually, I want to close
with a note about Madison himself. I do think he
was able to form these partnerships because of who he was.
He was not the dry creature of intellect that we
sometimes think of. He was referred to by a contemporary
(26:47):
as I've never seen so much mind in so little matter.
But he had a genuineness and an integrity and open heartedness.
These qualities, for me, shine through in the way he
received the news of the Treaty of Ghent, which is
the agreement that ended the War of eighteen twelve. As
I said, he pushed the nation into war, and it
(27:11):
didn't go terribly well much of the time. It's February thirteen,
eighteen fifteen. He's actually living an Octagon House, which still
stands over on Seventeenth Street.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
The rumor arrives that the treaty has.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Been signed with Britain, and a Pennsylvania senator rushes to
Octagon House to ask Madison if it's true.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
The senator found the house dark.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
The President sitting solitary in his parlor, in perfect tranquility,
not even a servant in waiting. The Senator asked if
the rumor was true. Madison bade him sit down. I
will tell you all I know, he said, then confirmed
that he thought there was peace, but he had no
official confirmation. The Senator recalled with some wonder, but he
(27:54):
called the President's self command on the occasion and greatness
of mind. The war of eighteen twelve truly had been
mister Madison's war. As his opponents called it, it was
about principles, not gain. It was fought with a quiet tenacity,
sometimes ineptley, and with endless tolerance of those who opposed it.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
As a friend of Madison's.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Wrote years later, the war had been conducted in perfect
keeping with the character of the President, of whom it
may be said that no one had to a greater
extent firmness, mildness, and self possession. And when peace came,
Madison welcomed it in a darkened house, alone with his
thoughts and.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
A special thanks to David O.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Stewart, author of Madison's Gift, and to the US National
Archives for allowing us.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Access to this speech. He gave there, and we love
doing this.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
We love taking speeches made in the citadels of learning
here in America and bringing him to the wider public.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
And my goodness, the story you heard about all of these.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Partnerships, starting with Hamilton moving to Jefferson, then to Monroe,
and then that last partnership, Dolly, And my goodness, what's storytelling.
I could just picture in my mind this playful, beautiful
woman hauling her husband on her back because she was
bigger than him, and just running around just for some levity,
(29:26):
just for some fun. She brought elegance and style and
fun to the administration. Things her husband lacked, but things
she had. Attributes she had in bounty. And when her
husband died, she was lonely and reintroduced herself to greater
society and had the foresight to save that magnificent portrait
(29:48):
of Washington as the British were sacking and burning.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Washington, DC.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
The story of James Madison in the end, the story
of the nation's founding.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Here are now American stories
Host
Lee Habeeb
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