October 3, 2023 • 30 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, we learn how the framers of the Constitution were not ordinary men. Hillsdale College professor and author of Land of Hope Bill McClay tells the story of the start of the Constitutional Convention and how the men there set out to create a document meant to last.
Support the show (https://www.ouramericanstories.com/donate)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And we returned to our American stories. Up next another
installment of our series about Us, The Story of America,
with doctor Bill McLay, author of Land of Hope and
the Terrific Young Readers Edition. After gaining our independence, we
operated under a document called the Articles of Confederation, but
(00:31):
it wasn't working out, so a group of men decided
to look into the situation in Philadelphia. Let's get into
the story. Here's Bill McLay.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
The Spanish had control of the Mississippi River.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
The British needed to be moved out.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The American Patriot soldiers were often not.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Paid, particularly toward the end of the war, in actual cash.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
But through extensions of credits. They were having their land
taken away from them through foreclosures, being executed by bankers
who didn't go to war. This is a situation that
is just Taylor made for high degree of tension, high
degree of social tension, and possible revolutionary or rebellious sentiment,
(01:24):
and there were pockets of rebellion. There was a particularly
notable rebellion in western Massachusetts, where a war hero named
Daniel Shays led a march to shut down the Supreme Court,
raid the Arsenal in Springfield, and that was put down,
(01:44):
but it seemed to be a harbinger of things to come.
George Washington himself was particularly alarmed by Shay's rebellion and
feared for the new nation's future.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Chase rebellion wasn't that.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Important in and of itself, but it was important for
what it indicated. For it clarified perception that reform was
not just desirable, but imperative and had to happen.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
There's a lot of hubbub.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
People weren't just sitting back in their silk robes in
their parlors discussing issues of political philosophy.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
They were on the front lines.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
They were looking at how are we going to hold
this thing together, this glorious revolution we fought so hard
led for.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
How are we going to make it work? Is this
all going to be for nothing? This is all just
going to blow apart because.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Of economic and problems in the incapacities of the government
that we chose. These are not armchair philosophy, and these
are people who were men of action, and they acted
very quickly. Even as Washington was writing about his fears,
(03:07):
there was a group of individuals, led by his brilliant
young aide Alexandra Hamilton, who were seeing about forming a
constitutional convention that would examine the articles. And four months
later we had a new constitution for the United States.
(03:30):
And this constitution, here's the wonderful part is they acted
quickly to deal with an urgent situation and created the
world's oldest constitution.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Isn't that amazing? This wasn't a fly by night thing.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
This was something that has lasted even unto the present day.
Why one thing we know is they were men of
extraordinarily high caliber and very young men of extraordinarily high caliber.
Just to see what counts is older? George Washington was
fifty five. That counts as older. Roger Sherman was sixty six.
(04:16):
Benjamin Franklin was a sprightly eighty one, and I do
say sprightly, but the average age was forty two. James
Wilson of Pennsylvania gouvernor Morris of New York. Wilson was
forty two, Morris was thirty five. James Madison, who we
call the architect of the Constitution, James Madison just thirty
(04:41):
six years old. It almost seems miraculous, almost miraculous that
such an assemblage of people could have been gathered up
in these rebellious colonies, and in a funny way, it's
a tribute to England. These men had all been formed
(05:02):
by British institutions, British ideas, British history.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
And remember the beginning of the revolution.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
They begin with the notion that we're rebelling because we're
being deprived our rights as Englishmen. That's part of the
interesting irony of this is we have exceptional men because
the entity against which.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
They rebelled is self exceptional.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Do you know what you'd expect from a youthful group
is kind of wild ideas, utopianism. You wouldn't expect sober, tried,
tested wisdom.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
But that's what the Constitual Convention produced.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
A sober wise tempered document that showed a great deal
of foresight and a great deal of realism about human nature.
Madison played the leading role in the thinking through of
the structure of the constant. He understood this a big deal.
This was a moment in history. Wasn't just a moment
(06:05):
for the new nation, it was something for the whole world.
He and Hamilton both declared that this attempt, this experiment
they were undertaking, would decide forever. This aid of republican
government talking about raising the bar.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
That's raising it very very high.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Indeed, it's not just how can we get through this
mess that we're in, but let's create a government that
will be a model for republican government, because we have
the chance to do it, and the chance may never
come again, not a chance like the chance we had.
They were all excited this possibility. John Adams, who was
(06:53):
definitely on the sober side, he wrote an essay called
Thoughts on Government not long before the Constitutional Convention begin,
and let me quote from it rather extensively here, because
I think it gives you some ideas. And the general
sinking of the Framers coming in to this great event.
(07:14):
I hear he's talking about why the goal of politics
should be to promote happiness, and that happiness depends on
the structure of government.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
That's not an everyday thought, is it. Here's what he says.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
The divine science of politics is the science of social happiness,
and the blessings of society depend entirely on the constitutions
of government, which are generally institutions at last. For many generations,
there can be no employment more agreeable to a benevolent
mind than a research after the best.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Alexander the poet flattered dilence.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Too much when he said, for forms of government, let
fools contest that which is best administered is best that
which is best administered. And now here's Adams on why
some forms of government are better than others, disagreeing with both.
(08:14):
Nothing can be more fallacious than these words of pope.
But poets read in history to collect flowers, not fruits.
They attend to fanciful images, not the effects of social institutions.
Nothing is more certain from the history of nations and
the nature of man than that some forms of government
better fitted for being well administered than others. We ought
(08:37):
to consider what is the end of government before we
determine which is the best form.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
What's the end of government? What's it for? What's purpose?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Upon this point, all speculative politicians will agree that the
happiness of society is the end of government has all divines,
and moral philosophers will agree that the happiness of the
individual is the end of man. From this, principally will
follow that the form of government which communicates ease, comfort, security,
(09:08):
or in one word, happiness to the greatest number of persons,
and to the greatest.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Degree is the best.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Now, this emphasis on happiness didn't mean that happiness was something.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Separate from virtue.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Oh, No, Honor is truly sacred, but holds a lower
rank in the scale of moral excellence than virtue. Indeed,
the former is but a part of the latter, and
consequently has not equal pretensions to support a frame of
government productive of human happiness.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
It's a very interesting state.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Honor is sacred, but holds a lower rank than virtue.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
When we come back more of Bill McLay the Story
of Us, the Story of America. Here on our American Stories,
(10:09):
and we returned to our American Stories and our series
about us the Story of America with Hillsdale College professor
an author of Land of Hope. Doctor Bill McLay is
also a tremendous young reader's edition of Land of Hope.
If you have children or grandchildren, buy it on Amazon
or any place books are sold. You won't regret it.
(10:30):
When we last left off, Bill was reading from John
adams essay thoughts on government. Let's continue with that reading.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
There is no good government. What is republican? The very
definition of a republic is an empire of laws and
not of men. That as a republic is the best
of government. So that particular arrangement of the power of society,
or in other words, that form of government which is
best contrived to secure an impartial and exact.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Execution of the laws, is the best of republic. And
that's not all.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Adams also touched on the issue of why a representative
government is a core feature of a republic of a
modern republic. Republics could be direct democracies, and often were
in antiquity. The Framers had all done their homework. They
are extremely well educated. They studied history in order to
(11:38):
evade history. As good government is an empire of laws,
how shall.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Your laws be made? In a large society.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Inhabiting an extensive country, It's impossible that the whole should
assemble to make laws. The first necessary step, then, is
to depute power from the many to a few of
the most.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Wise and good.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
But by what rules shall you choose your representatives, agree
upon the number and qualifications of persons who shall have
the benefit of choosing, or annex the privilege to the
inhabitants of a certain extent of ground. One thing notable
here he does say that we would depute power from
the many to a few of the most wise and good.
(12:27):
That does not say the most wealthy and power. It's
the most wise and good. Those are the people who
are most likely to be in possession of virtue and
to draw upon their virtuous nature in order to govern.
Now here's Adams on the separation of power within the
(12:49):
legislature itself, what we call the separation of powers. Not
only must we divide power between different branches of government,
should also divide the legislative power itself.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Most of the.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Foregoing reasons apply equally to prove that the legislative power
ought to be more complex, to which we may add
that if the legislative power is wholly in one assembly,
an executive in another, or in a single person, these
two powers will oppose and innervate upon each other until
the contest shall end in war, and the whole power
(13:26):
legislative and executive be usurped by the strongness. There's some
very practical wisdom there. If you make it too difficult
make the separation of powers to start, the contending powers
will not just seek compromise, They will seek one to
dominate over the other. Very practical wisdom on Adams's part
(13:49):
now here he is on the concept of an independent judiciary.
The dignity and stability of government at all it's ranches.
The morals of the people in every blessing of society
depends so much upon an upright and skillful administration of justice,
(14:11):
depends so much that the judicial power ought to be
distinct from the legislative and executive, and independent upon both,
so that so it may be a check upon both,
as both should be a check upon that. The judges,
therefore should always be meant of learning and experience in
the laws of exemplary morals, great patience, calmness, coolness.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
And attention to the ends.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
They should hold as states for life in their offices,
or in other words, their commission should be during good behavior.
In other words, they can't easily be removed. They have
to be, you know, shooting the place up with six
guns blazing in order to be removed from Often it's
a lifetime guarantee of independence from political power. President can
(15:02):
remove them of the Congress can. So you have a
government of independent power shaping up a legislative branch that
will be divided within itself, and an independent judiciary. We
haven't had much talk yet about an executive that will
come later. So here's how Adams closes things out. A
(15:32):
constitution founded on these principles introduces knowledge among the people
and inspires them with a conscious dignity becoming free men.
Let me repeat that, A constitution founded on these principles
(15:53):
introduces knowledge among the people and inspires them with a
conscious dignity becoming free men. A general emulation takes place,
which causes good humor, sociability, good manners, and good morals
to be general. The elevation of sentiment inspired by such
(16:14):
a government makes the common people brave and enterprising. That ambition,
which is inspired by it makes him sober, industrious, and frugal.
You and I, my dear friend, have been sent into
life at a time when the greatest lawgivers of antiquity.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Would have wished to have lived. How about that?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Let me repeat that one You and I, my dear friend,
have been sent into life at a time when the
greatest lawgivers of antiquity.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Would have wished to have lived.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
How few of the human race have ever enjoyed an
opportunity of making an election of government more than of air, soil,
or climate. For themselves or their children, when before the
present Epica had three millions of people, full of power
and a fair opportunity to form and establish the wisest
(17:05):
and happiest government that human wisdom can contrive. When before
the president, it's a great question, and it underscores the
sense of momentous possibility. The National Constitution Centering in Philadelphia
(17:29):
says it best about Adams's thoughts on government. Those principles
were that happiness is the end of government. Consent the
means and sovereignty of the people were the foundation. You
can see in those words both the Declaration of Independence,
(17:50):
consent the means, sovereignty of the.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
People, happiness the end of government.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You can see the declaration there in those words, but
you also can see the document that emerge in By
the way, I should mention, we've given so much time
to John Adams that one of his many distinctions is.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
That he was a one of the authors.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Of the Constitution of the State of Massachusetts, which was
drafted in seventeen eighty and continues largely in effect in
the constitution of that state today.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
That's quite a record.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
And you've been listening to Professor Bill McLay he's a
professor at Hillsdale College. And all of our history segments,
all of what we do here as it relates to history,
is brought to us by the great folks at Hillsdale College,
where you can go to study all the things that
matter in life, all the things that are beautiful in life.
By the way, if you can't get to Hillsdale, Hillsdale
will come to you with their free and terrific online courses.
(18:56):
Go to Hillsdale dot edu. This Adam's speech is just
remarkable that there were men who were writing and thinking
like that, and not just one or two, but the
assembly of talent and the assemblage of talent in Philadelphia
that summer to solve a problem, but yet make a
document that lasts this long, the longest constitution in the
oldest the oldest constitution in the world still standing. When
(19:21):
we come back more of this remarkable story on our
American Stories, and we returned to our American stories in
our series about Us the Story of America with Hillsdale
(19:45):
College professor and author of the fantastic book Land of
Hope and the Young Readers Edition, Bill McLay. When we
last left off, Bill had just finished reading John adams
essay Thoughts on Government, an essay which strikes at the
heart of what the men in Philadelphia were looking to
create a constitution they were aiming to create. Let's return
(20:06):
to the story. Here again is Bill McLay.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Now, let's talk a little bit about the question of power,
which is so important to the founder, dispersion of power.
How are you going to do that? Well, one of
the ways we've already seen you protect the independence of
the states, which varied because of their climate and soil
and location, their economies, their local economic prospects, their populations,
(20:42):
all sorts of diversity at the time of the nation's
founding that had to be managed. But that diversity could
be an advantage too, an advantage in the sense that
it had a way of dispersing power. If the states
were all more or less sovereign, more or less independent,
(21:03):
then their diversity could be something they could sustain. So
we have that built in to the whole project. Checks
and balances. This was very important to have the states
be a check on the national government, the national government
in some cases on the states, and the national government
to have checks within itself. So what they did with
(21:25):
they developed what we call a federal system. I gotta
say this could be confusing because we think of the
federal government, we think of Washington, we think of the
very idea of power being concentrated in one place.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
But the word federal actually means the opposite of that.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
A federal system is one in which power is distributed widely.
A federal system was a way of trying to reconcile
unity and diversity, national governance and local governments. Reconcile those
two things which seemed to be in opposition. Is there
a way you can kind of keep both the same time.
(22:08):
That's what the federal system was an effort to do,
to keep both the advantages of local governance and reconcile
them with the necessary innovations involved in a stronger national government.
One of the chief goals the convention was held in
(22:29):
the secret to exempt it from the kind of political
pressures and manipulations that might come from outside.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
You might think of them being.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Convened in the same way that a jury is sequestered
in a very high profile, high stakes trial. There were
several big arguments. Maybe the biggest was a question of representation.
How would the states be represented? You know, the articles
there was one state, one vote. That meant that something
(22:59):
that wanted could be vetoed by something that Rhode Island
wanted or didn't want. That's a very difficult system if
you want to get anything done. And Virginia was far
and away the most populous state, and the most populated
states wanted to have representation by population, sort of the basic.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
One man, one vote principal.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
And the smaller states, which were represented by Patterson of
New Jersey, wanted representation by states according to the pattern
set in the article's confederation. That article confederation was a
confederation of states, not a nation of individual people. So
(23:43):
you had two very different ideas here. It was a
clash not just of interest but of principles, although the
principles were undergirded by the interests of the different and
of course, the great solution to this, presented by Roger
Sherman Statesmen, was, and we call it the Great Compromise.
(24:03):
It was a bicameral two house legislative body. A House
of Representatives would follow the principle of representation by population,
and the Senate would represent the states. Each state would
have two votes. Virginia would have two votes, Massachusetts would
(24:25):
have two votes. New York would have two votes.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Rhode Island would have two votes.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Everybody had two votes, irrespective of their size. And then
in the House it would be representation by population, so
the big states population wise, would be much more strongly
represented and their interests more strongly represented in the House,
and the people, the average people would be represented in
(24:50):
the House. Because House members would serve two years and
senators would serve for six, that meant a lot more
time for yet peaceful, sober deliberation for senators then for
House of Representatives members who were constantly thinking about their
re election. So the Senate got duties of things like
(25:12):
the confirmation of appointments to the Executive Branch, to the
Supreme Court and the ratification of treaties. House of the
other end, was where appropriation spills would originate. They had
that kind of residual power of the perse privileged in
the House of Commons in the British Parliament had existed,
(25:35):
so it's also important the new government had greater powers.
Presidency would be greatly expanded to Commander in chief of
the armed forces, who could initiate action rather than just
for the following through on what the Congress had instructed
behind all of this, behind the idea that the government's
(25:57):
great powers would be enumerated the Constitution, which means if
it isn't there, if it isn't spelled out, it doesn't exist.
That was the thinking enumerated powers. It was a charter
of limited and enumerated powers. And behind all of this
(26:17):
was the idea that separation of power, fusion of power,
fusion of the kinds of clashes that come up when
you have human beings involved in the work of self
government was the idea of human nature itself has a
tendency towards conflict. We are fallen creatures, often perverse and selfish,
(26:37):
even malign in our intentions if those intentions are allowed
to be pursued without obstruction, and we all need rules
and structures of containment to keep us in line. So
the new Constitution would not seek to change human nature.
(26:58):
People were always going to be people. Well, they were
always going to be imperfect, they were always going to
be following.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
That's material you're dealing with. But how could you take
that human nature, in.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
All of its volly and energy ambition and channel those
things to the public good.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
That's what the Constitution is designed to do.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
It doesn't try to reduce the energy that's released by
our human nature.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
It doesn't try to stop that. It doesn't try to
throddle us.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
It releases them for productive purposes, for good, for the
general good. It works with human nature, not against it.
The Constitution is like the rules of the game. They're
the rules of engagement for warfare. They're the rule book
for a sporting event. Within those rules, there can be
(27:53):
a lot of conflict, even a lot of force and coercion, violence.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
But always within limits.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
These are rules of engagement that set the limits of activity,
but don't ham in the fact that people are going
to be ambitious, and we should not try to inhibit
the exercise of their ambition.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And a terrific job on the production, editing and storytelling
by our own Monte Montgomery himself a Hillsdale College graduate
and also a special thanks to Bill McLay. He's the
author of Land of Hope and the Terrific Young Readers Edition.
He's a Hillsdale College professor and he also serves on
the board of the Jack Miller Center. Partners with us
(28:40):
here in our American Stories and what a Story Bill
is telling us about our founders and their wisdom and
trying to advance the greatest good by putting together a
government with limited and enumerated powers. And the keyword there
is enumerated. What's not there of course, going back to
the states, and all based on how to best channel
(29:02):
human nature. And humans can be bad, and humans can
do miserable things, and they always want more power. And
this was all about the dispersal of power. Great compromises
happened too. New Jersey, Little Old New Jersey, where I
was born. Well, they weren't too happy with the idea
of surrendering that power they had under the Articles of Confederation.
(29:24):
They had to vote, and Mighty Virginia had to vote.
What a compromise. We have the lower chamber the House
two years and that's by population the representation, and then
in the upper Chamber six years. Every state gets equal representation.
A brilliant compromise. Indeed, it may have driven the success
of this constitution and why it's lasted so long.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
All of that diversity, all.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Of these ways to block bad ideas from making their
way to all of us and perhaps ruining our lives.
The story of us, the story of America, with Bill
McLay on our American Stories
And we returned to our American stories. Up next another
installment of our series about Us, The Story of America,
with doctor Bill McLay, author of Land of Hope and
the Terrific Young Readers Edition. After gaining our independence, we
operated under a document called the Articles of Confederation, but
(00:31):
it wasn't working out, so a group of men decided
to look into the situation in Philadelphia. Let's get into
the story. Here's Bill McLay.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
The Spanish had control of the Mississippi River.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
The British needed to be moved out.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The American Patriot soldiers were often not.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Paid, particularly toward the end of the war, in actual cash.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
But through extensions of credits. They were having their land
taken away from them through foreclosures, being executed by bankers
who didn't go to war. This is a situation that
is just Taylor made for high degree of tension, high
degree of social tension, and possible revolutionary or rebellious sentiment,
(01:24):
and there were pockets of rebellion. There was a particularly
notable rebellion in western Massachusetts, where a war hero named
Daniel Shays led a march to shut down the Supreme Court,
raid the Arsenal in Springfield, and that was put down,
(01:44):
but it seemed to be a harbinger of things to come.
George Washington himself was particularly alarmed by Shay's rebellion and
feared for the new nation's future.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Chase rebellion wasn't that.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Important in and of itself, but it was important for
what it indicated. For it clarified perception that reform was
not just desirable, but imperative and had to happen.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
There's a lot of hubbub.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
People weren't just sitting back in their silk robes in
their parlors discussing issues of political philosophy.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
They were on the front lines.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
They were looking at how are we going to hold
this thing together, this glorious revolution we fought so hard
led for.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
How are we going to make it work? Is this
all going to be for nothing? This is all just
going to blow apart because.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Of economic and problems in the incapacities of the government
that we chose. These are not armchair philosophy, and these
are people who were men of action, and they acted
very quickly. Even as Washington was writing about his fears,
(03:07):
there was a group of individuals, led by his brilliant
young aide Alexandra Hamilton, who were seeing about forming a
constitutional convention that would examine the articles. And four months
later we had a new constitution for the United States.
(03:30):
And this constitution, here's the wonderful part is they acted
quickly to deal with an urgent situation and created the
world's oldest constitution.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Isn't that amazing? This wasn't a fly by night thing.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
This was something that has lasted even unto the present day.
Why one thing we know is they were men of
extraordinarily high caliber and very young men of extraordinarily high caliber.
Just to see what counts is older? George Washington was
fifty five. That counts as older. Roger Sherman was sixty six.
(04:16):
Benjamin Franklin was a sprightly eighty one, and I do
say sprightly, but the average age was forty two. James
Wilson of Pennsylvania gouvernor Morris of New York. Wilson was
forty two, Morris was thirty five. James Madison, who we
call the architect of the Constitution, James Madison just thirty
(04:41):
six years old. It almost seems miraculous, almost miraculous that
such an assemblage of people could have been gathered up
in these rebellious colonies, and in a funny way, it's
a tribute to England. These men had all been formed
(05:02):
by British institutions, British ideas, British history.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
And remember the beginning of the revolution.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
They begin with the notion that we're rebelling because we're
being deprived our rights as Englishmen. That's part of the
interesting irony of this is we have exceptional men because
the entity against which.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
They rebelled is self exceptional.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Do you know what you'd expect from a youthful group
is kind of wild ideas, utopianism. You wouldn't expect sober, tried,
tested wisdom.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
But that's what the Constitual Convention produced.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
A sober wise tempered document that showed a great deal
of foresight and a great deal of realism about human nature.
Madison played the leading role in the thinking through of
the structure of the constant. He understood this a big deal.
This was a moment in history. Wasn't just a moment
(06:05):
for the new nation, it was something for the whole world.
He and Hamilton both declared that this attempt, this experiment
they were undertaking, would decide forever. This aid of republican
government talking about raising the bar.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
That's raising it very very high.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Indeed, it's not just how can we get through this
mess that we're in, but let's create a government that
will be a model for republican government, because we have
the chance to do it, and the chance may never
come again, not a chance like the chance we had.
They were all excited this possibility. John Adams, who was
(06:53):
definitely on the sober side, he wrote an essay called
Thoughts on Government not long before the Constitutional Convention begin,
and let me quote from it rather extensively here, because
I think it gives you some ideas. And the general
sinking of the Framers coming in to this great event.
(07:14):
I hear he's talking about why the goal of politics
should be to promote happiness, and that happiness depends on
the structure of government.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
That's not an everyday thought, is it. Here's what he says.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
The divine science of politics is the science of social happiness,
and the blessings of society depend entirely on the constitutions
of government, which are generally institutions at last. For many generations,
there can be no employment more agreeable to a benevolent
mind than a research after the best.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Alexander the poet flattered dilence.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Too much when he said, for forms of government, let
fools contest that which is best administered is best that
which is best administered. And now here's Adams on why
some forms of government are better than others, disagreeing with both.
(08:14):
Nothing can be more fallacious than these words of pope.
But poets read in history to collect flowers, not fruits.
They attend to fanciful images, not the effects of social institutions.
Nothing is more certain from the history of nations and
the nature of man than that some forms of government
better fitted for being well administered than others. We ought
(08:37):
to consider what is the end of government before we
determine which is the best form.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
What's the end of government? What's it for? What's purpose?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Upon this point, all speculative politicians will agree that the
happiness of society is the end of government has all divines,
and moral philosophers will agree that the happiness of the
individual is the end of man. From this, principally will
follow that the form of government which communicates ease, comfort, security,
(09:08):
or in one word, happiness to the greatest number of persons,
and to the greatest.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Degree is the best.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Now, this emphasis on happiness didn't mean that happiness was something.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Separate from virtue.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Oh, No, Honor is truly sacred, but holds a lower
rank in the scale of moral excellence than virtue. Indeed,
the former is but a part of the latter, and
consequently has not equal pretensions to support a frame of
government productive of human happiness.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
It's a very interesting state.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Honor is sacred, but holds a lower rank than virtue.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
When we come back more of Bill McLay the Story
of Us, the Story of America. Here on our American Stories,
(10:09):
and we returned to our American Stories and our series
about us the Story of America with Hillsdale College professor
an author of Land of Hope. Doctor Bill McLay is
also a tremendous young reader's edition of Land of Hope.
If you have children or grandchildren, buy it on Amazon
or any place books are sold. You won't regret it.
(10:30):
When we last left off, Bill was reading from John
adams essay thoughts on government. Let's continue with that reading.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
There is no good government. What is republican? The very
definition of a republic is an empire of laws and
not of men. That as a republic is the best
of government. So that particular arrangement of the power of society,
or in other words, that form of government which is
best contrived to secure an impartial and exact.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Execution of the laws, is the best of republic. And
that's not all.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Adams also touched on the issue of why a representative
government is a core feature of a republic of a
modern republic. Republics could be direct democracies, and often were
in antiquity. The Framers had all done their homework. They
are extremely well educated. They studied history in order to
(11:38):
evade history. As good government is an empire of laws,
how shall.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Your laws be made? In a large society.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Inhabiting an extensive country, It's impossible that the whole should
assemble to make laws. The first necessary step, then, is
to depute power from the many to a few of
the most.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Wise and good.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
But by what rules shall you choose your representatives, agree
upon the number and qualifications of persons who shall have
the benefit of choosing, or annex the privilege to the
inhabitants of a certain extent of ground. One thing notable
here he does say that we would depute power from
the many to a few of the most wise and good.
(12:27):
That does not say the most wealthy and power. It's
the most wise and good. Those are the people who
are most likely to be in possession of virtue and
to draw upon their virtuous nature in order to govern.
Now here's Adams on the separation of power within the
(12:49):
legislature itself, what we call the separation of powers. Not
only must we divide power between different branches of government,
should also divide the legislative power itself.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Most of the.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Foregoing reasons apply equally to prove that the legislative power
ought to be more complex, to which we may add
that if the legislative power is wholly in one assembly,
an executive in another, or in a single person, these
two powers will oppose and innervate upon each other until
the contest shall end in war, and the whole power
(13:26):
legislative and executive be usurped by the strongness. There's some
very practical wisdom there. If you make it too difficult
make the separation of powers to start, the contending powers
will not just seek compromise, They will seek one to
dominate over the other. Very practical wisdom on Adams's part
(13:49):
now here he is on the concept of an independent judiciary.
The dignity and stability of government at all it's ranches.
The morals of the people in every blessing of society
depends so much upon an upright and skillful administration of justice,
(14:11):
depends so much that the judicial power ought to be
distinct from the legislative and executive, and independent upon both,
so that so it may be a check upon both,
as both should be a check upon that. The judges,
therefore should always be meant of learning and experience in
the laws of exemplary morals, great patience, calmness, coolness.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
And attention to the ends.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
They should hold as states for life in their offices,
or in other words, their commission should be during good behavior.
In other words, they can't easily be removed. They have
to be, you know, shooting the place up with six
guns blazing in order to be removed from Often it's
a lifetime guarantee of independence from political power. President can
(15:02):
remove them of the Congress can. So you have a
government of independent power shaping up a legislative branch that
will be divided within itself, and an independent judiciary. We
haven't had much talk yet about an executive that will
come later. So here's how Adams closes things out. A
(15:32):
constitution founded on these principles introduces knowledge among the people
and inspires them with a conscious dignity becoming free men.
Let me repeat that, A constitution founded on these principles
(15:53):
introduces knowledge among the people and inspires them with a
conscious dignity becoming free men. A general emulation takes place,
which causes good humor, sociability, good manners, and good morals
to be general. The elevation of sentiment inspired by such
(16:14):
a government makes the common people brave and enterprising. That ambition,
which is inspired by it makes him sober, industrious, and frugal.
You and I, my dear friend, have been sent into
life at a time when the greatest lawgivers of antiquity.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Would have wished to have lived. How about that?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Let me repeat that one You and I, my dear friend,
have been sent into life at a time when the
greatest lawgivers of antiquity.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Would have wished to have lived.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
How few of the human race have ever enjoyed an
opportunity of making an election of government more than of air, soil,
or climate. For themselves or their children, when before the
present Epica had three millions of people, full of power
and a fair opportunity to form and establish the wisest
(17:05):
and happiest government that human wisdom can contrive. When before
the president, it's a great question, and it underscores the
sense of momentous possibility. The National Constitution Centering in Philadelphia
(17:29):
says it best about Adams's thoughts on government. Those principles
were that happiness is the end of government. Consent the
means and sovereignty of the people were the foundation. You
can see in those words both the Declaration of Independence,
(17:50):
consent the means, sovereignty of the.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
People, happiness the end of government.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You can see the declaration there in those words, but
you also can see the document that emerge in By
the way, I should mention, we've given so much time
to John Adams that one of his many distinctions is.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
That he was a one of the authors.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Of the Constitution of the State of Massachusetts, which was
drafted in seventeen eighty and continues largely in effect in
the constitution of that state today.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
That's quite a record.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
And you've been listening to Professor Bill McLay he's a
professor at Hillsdale College. And all of our history segments,
all of what we do here as it relates to history,
is brought to us by the great folks at Hillsdale College,
where you can go to study all the things that
matter in life, all the things that are beautiful in life.
By the way, if you can't get to Hillsdale, Hillsdale
will come to you with their free and terrific online courses.
(18:56):
Go to Hillsdale dot edu. This Adam's speech is just
remarkable that there were men who were writing and thinking
like that, and not just one or two, but the
assembly of talent and the assemblage of talent in Philadelphia
that summer to solve a problem, but yet make a
document that lasts this long, the longest constitution in the
oldest the oldest constitution in the world still standing. When
(19:21):
we come back more of this remarkable story on our
American Stories, and we returned to our American stories in
our series about Us the Story of America with Hillsdale
(19:45):
College professor and author of the fantastic book Land of
Hope and the Young Readers Edition, Bill McLay. When we
last left off, Bill had just finished reading John adams
essay Thoughts on Government, an essay which strikes at the
heart of what the men in Philadelphia were looking to
create a constitution they were aiming to create. Let's return
(20:06):
to the story. Here again is Bill McLay.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Now, let's talk a little bit about the question of power,
which is so important to the founder, dispersion of power.
How are you going to do that? Well, one of
the ways we've already seen you protect the independence of
the states, which varied because of their climate and soil
and location, their economies, their local economic prospects, their populations,
(20:42):
all sorts of diversity at the time of the nation's
founding that had to be managed. But that diversity could
be an advantage too, an advantage in the sense that
it had a way of dispersing power. If the states
were all more or less sovereign, more or less independent,
(21:03):
then their diversity could be something they could sustain. So
we have that built in to the whole project. Checks
and balances. This was very important to have the states
be a check on the national government, the national government
in some cases on the states, and the national government
to have checks within itself. So what they did with
(21:25):
they developed what we call a federal system. I gotta
say this could be confusing because we think of the
federal government, we think of Washington, we think of the
very idea of power being concentrated in one place.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
But the word federal actually means the opposite of that.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
A federal system is one in which power is distributed widely.
A federal system was a way of trying to reconcile
unity and diversity, national governance and local governments. Reconcile those
two things which seemed to be in opposition. Is there
a way you can kind of keep both the same time.
(22:08):
That's what the federal system was an effort to do,
to keep both the advantages of local governance and reconcile
them with the necessary innovations involved in a stronger national government.
One of the chief goals the convention was held in
(22:29):
the secret to exempt it from the kind of political
pressures and manipulations that might come from outside.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
You might think of them being.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Convened in the same way that a jury is sequestered
in a very high profile, high stakes trial. There were
several big arguments. Maybe the biggest was a question of representation.
How would the states be represented? You know, the articles
there was one state, one vote. That meant that something
(22:59):
that wanted could be vetoed by something that Rhode Island
wanted or didn't want. That's a very difficult system if
you want to get anything done. And Virginia was far
and away the most populous state, and the most populated
states wanted to have representation by population, sort of the basic.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
One man, one vote principal.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
And the smaller states, which were represented by Patterson of
New Jersey, wanted representation by states according to the pattern
set in the article's confederation. That article confederation was a
confederation of states, not a nation of individual people. So
(23:43):
you had two very different ideas here. It was a
clash not just of interest but of principles, although the
principles were undergirded by the interests of the different and
of course, the great solution to this, presented by Roger
Sherman Statesmen, was, and we call it the Great Compromise.
(24:03):
It was a bicameral two house legislative body. A House
of Representatives would follow the principle of representation by population,
and the Senate would represent the states. Each state would
have two votes. Virginia would have two votes, Massachusetts would
(24:25):
have two votes. New York would have two votes.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Rhode Island would have two votes.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Everybody had two votes, irrespective of their size. And then
in the House it would be representation by population, so
the big states population wise, would be much more strongly
represented and their interests more strongly represented in the House,
and the people, the average people would be represented in
(24:50):
the House. Because House members would serve two years and
senators would serve for six, that meant a lot more
time for yet peaceful, sober deliberation for senators then for
House of Representatives members who were constantly thinking about their
re election. So the Senate got duties of things like
(25:12):
the confirmation of appointments to the Executive Branch, to the
Supreme Court and the ratification of treaties. House of the
other end, was where appropriation spills would originate. They had
that kind of residual power of the perse privileged in
the House of Commons in the British Parliament had existed,
(25:35):
so it's also important the new government had greater powers.
Presidency would be greatly expanded to Commander in chief of
the armed forces, who could initiate action rather than just
for the following through on what the Congress had instructed
behind all of this, behind the idea that the government's
(25:57):
great powers would be enumerated the Constitution, which means if
it isn't there, if it isn't spelled out, it doesn't exist.
That was the thinking enumerated powers. It was a charter
of limited and enumerated powers. And behind all of this
(26:17):
was the idea that separation of power, fusion of power,
fusion of the kinds of clashes that come up when
you have human beings involved in the work of self
government was the idea of human nature itself has a
tendency towards conflict. We are fallen creatures, often perverse and selfish,
(26:37):
even malign in our intentions if those intentions are allowed
to be pursued without obstruction, and we all need rules
and structures of containment to keep us in line. So
the new Constitution would not seek to change human nature.
(26:58):
People were always going to be people. Well, they were
always going to be imperfect, they were always going to
be following.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
That's material you're dealing with. But how could you take
that human nature, in.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
All of its volly and energy ambition and channel those
things to the public good.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
That's what the Constitution is designed to do.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
It doesn't try to reduce the energy that's released by
our human nature.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
It doesn't try to stop that. It doesn't try to
throddle us.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
It releases them for productive purposes, for good, for the
general good. It works with human nature, not against it.
The Constitution is like the rules of the game. They're
the rules of engagement for warfare. They're the rule book
for a sporting event. Within those rules, there can be
(27:53):
a lot of conflict, even a lot of force and coercion, violence.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
But always within limits.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
These are rules of engagement that set the limits of activity,
but don't ham in the fact that people are going
to be ambitious, and we should not try to inhibit
the exercise of their ambition.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And a terrific job on the production, editing and storytelling
by our own Monte Montgomery himself a Hillsdale College graduate
and also a special thanks to Bill McLay. He's the
author of Land of Hope and the Terrific Young Readers Edition.
He's a Hillsdale College professor and he also serves on
the board of the Jack Miller Center. Partners with us
(28:40):
here in our American Stories and what a Story Bill
is telling us about our founders and their wisdom and
trying to advance the greatest good by putting together a
government with limited and enumerated powers. And the keyword there
is enumerated. What's not there of course, going back to
the states, and all based on how to best channel
(29:02):
human nature. And humans can be bad, and humans can
do miserable things, and they always want more power. And
this was all about the dispersal of power. Great compromises
happened too. New Jersey, Little Old New Jersey, where I
was born. Well, they weren't too happy with the idea
of surrendering that power they had under the Articles of Confederation.
(29:24):
They had to vote, and Mighty Virginia had to vote.
What a compromise. We have the lower chamber the House
two years and that's by population the representation, and then
in the upper Chamber six years. Every state gets equal representation.
A brilliant compromise. Indeed, it may have driven the success
of this constitution and why it's lasted so long.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
All of that diversity, all.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Of these ways to block bad ideas from making their
way to all of us and perhaps ruining our lives.
The story of us, the story of America, with Bill
McLay on our American Stories
Host
Lee Habeeb
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!