November 16, 2023 • 38 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, Jill Duggar and her husband Derick are here to share their story—the unedited truth—behind TLC’s hit television show that captivated the nation, "19 Kids and Counting." Their story has become a NYT instant bestseller: A memoir called "Counting the Cost."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Lee Habib, and this is Our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American people.
Search for the Our American Stories podcast go to the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jill Dugger and her husband Derek are here to share
(00:30):
their story, the unedited truth behind TLC's hit television show
that captivated the nation, Nineteen Kids and Counting. Their story
has become a New York Times instant bestseller with a
memoir called Counting the Cost. Let's take a listen.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hey, So I am Jill Dillard of Derek Dord Jill
and Derek Dillard. Here, I used to be Jill Ducker
and and I was part of a family with nineteen
kids in Counting. You may know about us from the
reality show TLC had for a long time running seventeen
(01:10):
Kids Accounting, eighteen Kids Accounting, and then nineteen Kids Accounting
and then counting on.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So they probably should have renamed it nineteen Kids Accounting
down once it started eighteen, because I think there's only
three kids under eighteen now, so that I think about you,
it could have been like counting eighteen kids in Counting.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Now seventeen kids, No, what was happening?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, it could be sound very violent.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Anyway, I grew up in a family with lots of kids,
and so we recently wrote a book Counting the Cost
that talks about our journey. So I really felt like
growing up on reality TV, my story was always going
to be continued to be told really for me, and
(01:51):
so in writing a book, I felt like, if the
story's already going to be told, I would rather be
the one telling it. So yeah, our story though goes
back to I grew up. I'm the second daughter in
the Dugger family, fourth born, and so growing up we
(02:13):
were different than a lot of families in that we
of course we're adding a new kid like every year
to our family, But then we were also part of
a group called IBLP.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
And that you can't, like job brush past the fact
that there's a kid being born every single year.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
So whenever or two there were two sets of twins or.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Two, yeah, but blows me away. Like early in our
relationship and even still now, we refer to different events
and I'll refer to like what grade I was in.
Joe will say, who is the baby when that happened?
So that's more the marker of time.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It is, well because because I was also homeschooled, so
I don't have I don't Derek was public school all
the way through. Yeah, I didn't have like the classroom
that I could identify with with a new teacher every year,
so literally it was like who is the baby?
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, and so that's how I remember the year of
something happening generally, but anyway, grew up in the Duggar family.
We were part of this group that kind of really
formed my family's views on a lot of things. So
whether it was homeschooling or just religious aspects.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
We were part of a group called.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
IBLP, which stands for Institute and Basic Life Principles, led
by Bill Gothard, and he had all these conferences where
he taught biblical principles that he kind of formed his
own opinion.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
About to the masses. When did it start the sixties.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Early sixties, I one don't callin that. It was like
nineteen sixty one.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So my parents were very influenced by that. And then
he also started Bill Gofford started this group called Atidan's
Training Institute for Homeschooling for our home school families and so.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It came later that was like in the early to
mid eighties, I believe.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
So my parents joined that group, and as a kid,
I remember it being a happy memory. We would go
to these conferences, these ATI conferences and be taught everything
from what the Bible says on how many kids you
should have to not drinking alcohol, to how many or
where you could should send your kids and where you
(04:27):
should not send your kids to school, and everything on
like the way you should dress to the music you
should listen to. So that's kind of my thought process
as a kid was this is what the Bible says,
this is what IBLP says, or ATI, this is the
way I should be living. So growing up we had
a lot of rules and standards that we were supposed.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
To keep to. Of course, a lot of love as
well in my family.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And then in the late nineties early two thousands, my
dad ran for political office, which then led to some
notoriety in our local area, and of course my parents
still having a bunch of kids, that caught the eye
of some TV producers who then asked my parents about
producing a one time documentary about my family, and that
(05:17):
ended up being the hit show.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I guess it was like the number one show on
Discovery Health at the time.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
It was kind of at the beginning of the reality
series era of things where somehow like Discovery and TLC
merged around them and everything. So they asked if my
parents would consider doing a few more documentaries and then
ended up launching into a reality show about my family.
(05:45):
So we but.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Not to you, not to cut you off, but I
think like a good way to kind of organize kind
of the fascination was starting a reality show, at least
from what I can see coming in because Joe kind
of grew up on reality TV. But I think what
was so fascinating and what made it doubly fascinating for
people on the outside, not only was the interest in
(06:11):
the logistics that took to raise a family of twenty
one two parents and nineteen children, but how unique the
lifestyle was because of this undergirding organization woven throughout daily
life and the institute and basic life principles.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Whether all the girls wore dresses or herbie or doing homeschooling, it.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Was obvious it was a parent Yeah, home schooled.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Some aspects of it are wonderful and some not so much.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, and You've been listening to Jill Duggar and her
husband Derek, and they're sharing their story of growing up
in this large family that lent itself to being filmed
by TLC, thus creating the massive hit show Nineteen Kids
(07:00):
and Counting. And so many of us have been curious, well,
what happened to them? How are they doing? How did
that affect their lives? We're learning right now a little
bit more about their lives. When we come back, we're
going to learn a lot more with Jill and Derek
Dillard telling the story of the story behind nineteen Kids
(07:21):
in County and the family behind the hit TV show.
Here on Our American Stories, Leehabibe here the host of
our American Stories. Every day on this show, we're bringing
inspiring stories from across this great country, stories from our
big cities and small towns. But we truly can't do
(07:44):
the show without you. Our stories are free to listen to,
but they're not free to make. If you love what
you hear, go to Ouramerican Stories dot com and click
the donate button. Give a little, give a lot. Go
to Ouramerican Stories dot com and give and we continue
(08:10):
with our American Stories and the story of Jill Dugger
and her husband Derek, and they were a part of
TLC's huge hit TV show that captivated this country, nineteen
kids in counting. Let's pick up with their story, and
let's pick up where we last left off.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Growing up, Like I really did have pretty much like
a happy childhood, I would say, And then we started
being part of this reality TV show. And I remember
like the first time the camera crew came to our
house and they like stuck a camera in my face
and I'm grating cheese and they're like, just be normal,
and I'm like okay. And but fast forward, we had
(08:53):
been on the reality TV show for a long time
and then in walks.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
My Prince Charmy, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
There you are, Derek. It was actually we were kind
of like set up by my dad. My dad introduced us,
so he and Derek didn't really you guys didn't really
even know each other. Though y'all were like prayer partners
because Derek was from our area, but we hadn't really met.
(09:21):
Some friends knew of our family because of the TV
show we were on, and they were Christmas caroling one
time and they're like, hey, we should go to the
Douggar's house and Christmas Carol because we want to meet them,
and he was, what were you like visiting from college
or something. He's nice, sure, yeah, so he was just
tagging along in this group of people. I vaguely remember that,
(09:45):
but like we didn't actually meet the Christmas Carol at
my family's house, which was not uncommon. I mean it
sounds weird, but like for complete strangers to show up
at our door was not uncommon and just like.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Want to say, hey, take a picture.
Speaker 5 (09:59):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
We eventually he got like a gate outside of our home,
so just to protect the family, like the kids running
around in the front.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yard probably got a versus zoo like like zoo animals.
I feel like you could slow.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Down seriously though sometimes I mean, it's not super weird,
but like I guess it is weird.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Whenever come a topic on the window, just kind of
look inside.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
There was a guy one time who like jumped the
fence and came up and thankfully, like I think, I
don't know what he would do that anyways, Yeah weird,
but okay, that's a side note.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
So Derek, he.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You had he had stopped by our house one time
just with that group but like didn't really know us,
but it was ripe that happened right before he was
supposed to go to Nepal to do mission work for
two years.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So yeah. A couple of years after I finished my
accounting degree, I went.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
To Oklahoma State University.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Shoutout go Pokes. Went to Oklahoma State University. A couple
of years after college, went to Nepal for a two
year mission term. We were tasked during our training in
Virginia to gather so many signatures of people who committed
to pray for us while we were on the mission
field for two years. And I went to a teeny
(11:14):
tiny like parishonall church, I was obviously going to need
prayer support from outside of our own church, so I
reached out to Jimbob and asked if he would be
one of the people to pray for me while I
was serving on the mission field in Nepal, and he
said sure. So I'd given him a prayer card like
I had everyone who had committed to pray for us,
(11:36):
and my blog was on the bottom of it, called
it Himalayan Cowboy at blogspot dot com because I was
actually I was.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Going to say, okay, he was actually the mascot mask.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I was the cowboy pistol pete.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
And I will say I will add he was the
first Legacy peete, so his dad was also the mascot
at Oklahoma State University.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
So it's like big, big deal.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Anyway, Anyway, that was my blog, so it was on
the card, and Jill actually just told me today that
like her dad was like reading my blog posts whenever
he was not talking to me on the phone, so
I guess in between he would keep up that way.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
He knew a lot about you enough to know that
he wanted.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
To introduce you to me and me to you.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Yes, so he did that. After about eighteen minds of
us kind of communicating monthly or so on updates on
the mission field, he said, well, my daughter Jill shares
a lot of common life goals as you, and I
think y'all would really hit it off. Jill and I
talked for the first time for like five and a
half hours on Skype. We say it was loving first Skype.
(12:38):
We had two five and a half hour long conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And Jill, because I told him this is what I
told him. I said, like I said, I said, I said,
it's kind of like throwing up. This was act I said,
because I hate confrontation. I hate like where I got
to ask all these questions and grill him on everything.
(13:02):
So I said, I just want to get it over
with and it's kind of like throwing up because you
feel much better afterwards.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
That's what I told you.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
You know, we don't want to waste our time and
realize five years later that she's actually Buddhist and I
don't really want to marry someone of it.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
But whatever it is, we want to do a line
on on our.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Goals in line and our philosophies.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Religious views, goals, whatever. So we wanted to find that
out from the get go. So we had long conversations
and basically I was like, okay, cool, I want to
get to know this guy better. So then I convinced
my dad to fly to Nepal with me, but we
had to take the entire film crew with us. Anyway,
(13:44):
we met over there in Nepal and we fell in love. Well.
Then fast forward, Derek comes back from Nepal. He starts
working as a tax accountant for.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Walmart in our area of corporate.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Then we get engaged pretty quick, get married, find out
we're expecting our first.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Child well, and we wanted to serve on the mission field.
That was kind of like the foundation for our relationships.
So even before we got engaged, like I enrolled in seminary,
my mom got cancer that same it was a semester
starting a new job. Like it was. It was a
lot we got engaged, like all in this ou at
same time.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, just a lot happened in that first year of
our marriage. We also had a lot of traumatic things
happened in our life around that time where it was
announced that the show ended up actually getting canceled in twenty.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Fifteen after our oldest was born.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, after it was reported I say loosely by tab
Lloyd's who.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
There was a point in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Where, working together with the city of Springdale and the
police chief and Washington County and in Duch Magazine together
they illegally released juvenile sexual abuse records, and so my
sisters and I were thrust into a very painful spotlight.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
That we never wanted to be in.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And not to protect my brother at all, who had
perpetrated these horrendous acts, but just as victims in the
system here, we felt like we were exploited and those
records should have never been released. So it was a
very very painful time for my sisters and I, and
(15:34):
the show got canceled and through a series of circumstances
which later we disagree with how it was all handled,
but we were forced to kind of help get the
show back up and going. So then Derek and I
are on the mission field and we just through all
(15:54):
of this. The show comes alive again and it's very
much portrayed to us like a family ministry, and it
comed out it was like impacting people's lives positively. We're
not saying it didn't ever, but for us that process
was very grueling. And then you add to the mix
a TV show, and basically it came down to the
(16:15):
point where we were on the mission field trying to
make decisions that were best for our family, and then
we find out that there's this contract that I was
tricked into signing by my own father, and regardless of
whatever intentions he may have had, it was very very
hard for me going from this like trusting relationship to
try and figure out how do I sort this out?
How to somebody that I love and trust seemingly take
(16:38):
advantage of me in this situation.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And you're listening to Jill Duger and her husband Derek
share their story, and my goodness, we all anticipated it
will be complicated. The idea of bringing TV cameras into
a family, well, that's going to create problems of its own,
but it's also going to reveal things to people that
they see in their own family. And there's a reason
why that show was a hit. And it wasn't so
(17:03):
much the prurient type of show like so many of
the reality TV shows. It was showing a family, a
big family, a big Christian family, trying to navigate life.
And we hear also about this just tumultuous year, a
year in which there's an engagement, a year where things
get released in this family to the public that but
(17:25):
for the TV show, may never have been released. And
then the discovery that her own father may have manipulated
her into signing a contract that she really didn't want
to sign or didn't know much about. When we continue
more of the story of Jill Duggar and her husband
Derek here on our American stories, And we continue with
(18:09):
our American stories and the story of Jill Dugger and
her husband Derek who share their experience in the TLC
hit TV show Nineteen Kids in counting their New York
Times instant bestseller, Counting the Cost chronicles some of those stories.
Let's pick up where we last left off. Here's Jill
(18:31):
and Derek Dillard.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It came to a point where we had to break
away from filming, so we left the show. We decided
to leave the show. We felt like.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
That that was what we need us to do.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
For our family, and so we stepped away from the
reality TV show, which continued to carry on for a
few more years, and started to make a life for
ourselves and kind of think for ourselves and just trying
to figure out who we were in the world and
who Christ wanted us to be, and what we were called,
how we were called to live our lives as a family,
and what was okay, what was not okay and sorting
(19:05):
through that and to kind of set up a.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Little bit going back to what I was saying earlier,
I think the IBLP created its own set of issues
and having a culture of taking the Bible, which is true,
and using it out of context to control and manipulate
for a specific agenda. And I feel like the show
this reality show just kind of poured gasoline on the
fire and allowed those issues to just be amplified that
(19:30):
much more. And when we got married in a Christian wedding,
you leave in cleve, you become your own family. And
we realized, like, in hindsight, was that just a ploy
because it seemed like this umbrell of authority meaning and
I keep referring to the umbrella of authority, this was.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
A specific teaching that they.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Had to teaching in the IBLP where the father is
over everyone in the family, but in the IBLP they
took it even further. And even for your kids who
were married, you were supposed to be under this umbrella
of authority. And that to me was completely contradictory to
scripture which says you leave in Cleveland become your own family.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Like if you moved outside the umbrella of authority and
you started making decisions that your parents did not approve
of or that you did not get their blessing on,
even as an adult, then you were opening yourself up
to potential harm, like you might get in a car accident,
and then that was the reason why, Like if you
got in this car accident, it might have been this
(20:29):
retribution theology type thing with this authority principle where you
caused it by getting out from under their authority type thing.
So that's like the extreme example. Other things that might
just be like, oh, you're facing problems in your life
because of not getting your parents blessing or whatever.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
So many of these things were used for control. And
then Jimbob was committing financial fraud and it very strongly
impacted our lives and we had to basically draw some
hard boundaries and say this is not okay. You know
this is wrong, and we we need to like take
some action to protect our own family. And the show
(21:07):
at this point was called Jill and Jessic Counting On.
And we had made a commitment on the mission field
to remain for a number of months, and we had
already shared.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
That this was our commitment whenever nobody seemed to have
a problem, nobody seemed to work with and it wasn't
even something that like we took the initiative to do.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Our supervisor at the time said, I need you to
commit to being here for this long and really establish
rapport with the people who live here and if they
see you going back and forth to the States, those
you was having one foot in, one foot out, and
not being very serious about your care for their lives spiritually, physically, otherwise.
(21:47):
And so we said, well, sure, yes, we can make
that commitment. We'll remain here and not go back to
the States. Jim Bob knew that we had committed to
remain on the mission field, and it was almost like,
not to be super sarcastic, but the way it just
came across was like, oh, well, that's cute, Like that's
great at the Jeweler making a commitment, but this is
(22:08):
the true ministry. Reality TV is what is truly the ministry.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
He really did view it eye the ministry.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, and like what you all are doing in all
Salvador's cube, it's almost like just to provide content for
the greater ministry.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
As like, I think he appreciated it.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
I'm not saying he didn't appreciate it, but he almost
saw it as a subset of the true ministry because
it wasn't as great numbers based as the filming ministry,
which again personally I would disagree, which is because the
gospel itself was not presented, it was not tagged as
like a Christian show. It was a show about Christians.
(22:42):
But that's a side note. But they asked us to
come back to Houston to this filming shoot. It was yeah,
they asked us to come.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Back for this promotional shoot the network. Yeah, the network
wanted us to film this promotional shoot, which happened once
or twice a year generally, and so we were askeered
to come back to the States for this from Central
America where we were serving as missionaries, and we said no.
It just got very very heated, to the point where
they present us with this contract and they say, well, actually,
(23:13):
it's almost like no, I'm more mister nice guy.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Here you go. Here's this contract.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
You actually are obligated to come back.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
You have to. And we were shocked.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
We look at this and we're like, what where did
this come from. We end up finding out that this
is the piece of paper that my dad had set
before me the day before we got married, with no
understanding of what it was, no papers to even read
about what this was that I was signing, and I
was made to believe, when I had asked about it
at the time, that this was just about how I
(23:43):
was going to get paid and.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Which was which was a lie. In one aspect of
the financial fraud, it's even more clear now as an
attorney and more specifically as a prosecutor, it was very
much financial fraud. Jill was told that this was about
how you're going to get paid, but that was materially wrong.
It wasn't image to a small mistake materially different than
what it actually was in reality. If you were to
(24:04):
be explicit about what the answer should have been, it
should have been, this is about how you're not going
to get paid, and your payment will come when we
die as part of your inheritance, and you're also obligated.
And this was complete and this was completely left out
of that of what the single page with one line
on it that she was asked to sign when I
(24:26):
wasn't even aware of it. I wasn't even in the room,
which is a different story, but that you're also committing
all these like basically your whole life for the next
five years, the first five years of our marriage, without
ever telling Jill or having her ask me if this
is something that we want to start our lives on
and tomorrow, so we didn't know what it was. The
(24:49):
other aspect of the financial fraud was the more we
dug into it. As we uncovered things, it was oh,
we're sorry, like we should have xys.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
We just wanted transparency exactly, we very much want to transparency.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
And the hope would have been, okay, now that we
realize the error of our way is like you should
also know that this that this is the situation too.
But it was almost like Jill's dad Jim Bob doug
his heels in and then just like oh, well you
figure that out. But I'm sorry, but I'm not going
to reveal anything else that I've got you yet locked
(25:22):
down into and then we get to tell you discover
later on. And then we uncovered some more stuff that
was basically him on his taxes and the taxes of
the other children reporting income as for other people to
lessen his tax liability. He was going to be one
hundred percent the one be paid, and I will choose
(25:43):
how I want to help you all, like if I
want to basically, if you're my good graces, I'll help
you and that'll be my way of like quote unquote
paying you, but that's not going to be reported as payment.
I'm showing on paper that I'm paying all of you all,
but I'm controlling one hundred percent of the finances. If
you want to get paid, then I'm disinheriting you because
(26:03):
I count that as your inheritance. So if you want,
if you're going to threaten me with a lawsuit, then
you can just count on not You've already gotten your inheritance,
so you can just be counted out because that was
supposed to be inheritized.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
Should have been earned income.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, but so India, we had some pretty understandably some
pretty crazy conversations.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
And you've been listening to Jill Duggart and her husband
Derek share their story, a story behind the story of
TLC's hit television show that captivated a nation nineteen kids
in counting, and so much had been written about it
at the time, documentaries The Whole nine Yards, but hearing
from Jill and her husband directly about their family, what
(26:48):
happened to them after the reality show, as they both said,
how to create a life for themselves and think for
themselves outside of that ecosystem them one created by a
dad and a reality television show and fame, the overlay
of fame having such a dramatic impact on anybody who
(27:11):
encounters and anyone will tell you the stories of what
fame can do almost anybody. When we come back, more
of this story, the story of Jill Dugger and her
husband Derek here on our American Stories and we continue
(27:37):
with our American Stories and Jill Dugger and her husband
Derek sharing their story of life during and after TLC's
hit television show nineteen Kids in Counting. Their memoir Counting
and the Cost is available on Amazon and the usual suspects.
(27:58):
Let's pick up when we last left off.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
For us, finding a Christian lifcense therapist was very important,
aligned with where we.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
Wanted to be, well, not even aligned with where we
wanted to be, aligned with scripture, because I think it's
important to note that you don't want to look for
yes people, people who are just going to affirm whatever
you're seeking out, because I think that's dangerous too. Yes,
but there's wisdom and counts, but finding people who are
outside of the situation, they don't stand anything to gain
or lose, but who recognize the Bible as the authority
(28:28):
that it is, and who can you know, challenge you,
who can affirm you, who can make you realize sometimes
that you're not crazy, and help you realize give you
tools basically to work through a lot of problems and
maintain a strong faith.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So as we sorted through some of that and over time,
then we thought about writing a book. And it was
something that I was kind of scared to do because
I still love my family and it and it intertwines
a lot with my family and growing up in reality
TV and all of those dynamics. So right now, I
(29:03):
feel like it's kind of the aftermath of the book
right now where we just have to give some space,
allow other people some space, because I understand like there's
a lot of difficult content in the book, and my
relationship with my parents now is very complicated. I don't
just hang out like we used to my parents. I'm
(29:24):
not going to speak for them, but I don't think
they were super happy about the book. I mean, we
did get a text message after the announcement of the book,
but before it came out, just not yeah expressing they
were expressing. My dad specifically was like expressing his opinion
(29:44):
on it, and he was telling my other siblings like,
if you say anything negative, you're going to be cut
out of the inheritance, and like saying like we owe
our lives to Bill Gothards. So I think there's still
negativity and harming. The image is is sinful because it's
not honoring to your family of origin or something. But
(30:06):
I think what is honoring is telling the truth and
not doing it out of the wrong spirit, not doing
it with a motive to just hurt or expose, but
really just telling my story, telling our story, the journey
that we've been on, with the intention of helping other
(30:28):
people who have probably faced the same things that we have,
whether it's because of religious upbringing, legalism, family dynamics. Actually,
I would like to read this first part of the book.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It is very and again in this culture like it's
the isolation that a lot of times is used to
perpetuate abuse and this idea that people are made to
feel like they're on an island and don't talk to
others they wouldn't understand. We want to be able to
pass out along for other people by sharing our story
to so.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
In the prologue, well, I guess it's not the prologue, actually,
it's just the intro.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
There's the portion that I would like to read. So
it says to.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Those who have been harmed in the name of religion
to those who have suffered behind closed doors and have
yet to find their voice. To those who have begun
to find their voice but may still be living in
a season of isolation. To those who, like Esther and
the Old Testament Bible story, have courageously answered the call
for such a time as this, and despite the backlash,
(31:29):
have now found their voice. From victims and survivors to strangers, family,
and friends, this book is dedicated to you. May you
all know that you are not alone, that your story,
your voice, and your mental health matter. The Lord is
a stronghold for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of
trouble Psalm nine to nine. So that's why we wrote
(31:50):
the book is for these people mentioned here and then
in the back of the book, in the author's note
I want to read, another portion says what this book
is not.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
This book is not.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
A letter to my family as part of the reconciliation process.
I also didn't write this book to shame my family
or just to try and get their attention. We will
continue to work through matters with family independent of this book,
with the desired ultimate goal of healthy relationships. Lord Willing,
We understand that no family is perfect and that you
(32:22):
can recognize the beauty in your story while still acknowledging
the difficult parts and even setting boundaries. It shouldn't make
you unloving. It's like roses and thorns. The two can coexist,
and I do love my family. The highs aren't invalidated
by the lows, and vice versa. Everyone's story will look
different just because some problems weren't intentional, or one story
(32:47):
isn't as bad as the next person's shouldn't invalidate the
real problems or minimize the story. And the degree to
which we felt this book needed to be written was
the degree to which we felt like voices were still
being silenced and real harm was continuing to be done
by not telling it. Yeah, it's it's been a journey,
but well.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
And I think it's important too, like that there's a
lot of things crossroads at different points that kind of
affected our direction in life, and we're already trying to
establish our own family identity the day we got married
and realized that we weren't able to like, we're just
being tied down for the next five years. But then,
especially whenever the injustice was with the Jillner sisters, information
(33:34):
being released like I wanted to punch someone and you know,
down Washington County or the city of Springdale, but realized
it's probably not very Christian, that would not be christ
like of me. But I can we can invest in
getting legal education and trying to make sure that that
doesn't happen to other people, or at least we can
affect some positive change to make sure that kids don't,
(33:58):
you know, remain sign whenever they're trying to expose their abuser,
because they don't know, looking at Jill, if this is
a safe place, because well what if I'm one day exposed,
you know, and everyone's going to know these horrible details
about me.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
So Derek's able to advocate now every day for people
in the justice system and his job that he has
advocating for people and being a voice for the voiceless.
So he's been my advocate and now he's an advocate
for so many other people, and I'm so proud of him. So, yeah,
we're just trying to be a positive light through some
(34:34):
tough stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yeah, and also for people to realize that, you know,
whenever you face difficulty, a lot of people don't have
a safe place to land, and they end up going
off the deep end and leaving their faith, and like,
you know, it's so hard to just maintain the straight
and arrow and not go off to the right, not
to the left, but down the straight and narrow. And
we really feel like that's kind of one of the
themes of our journey, that's just trying to maintain that,
(34:57):
Like we.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Want them to see our voice coming through this, that
you can be strong, you can hold to your faith,
but relying on Christ to get you through these hard
times because we can't do it alone, and as Christians,
like we cannot do it in our own strength.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
True freedom is found in Christ's outside, from the law,
seeking the Lord, seeking who He's called us to be.
The Church is a diverse group. I think a lot
of times in the church we think it's very cookie cutter,
like if you don't pass the plate at ten o'clock
at the beginning versus the end of the service, that
you're doing something wrong. Is this wrong because it's just
different to me, or is it actually wrong. You go
to some cultures and it's like, well, they're beating their wives. No,
(35:35):
that's not just part of their culture. That's wrong in
whatever culture it is. But if you go and you're like, well,
this music is weird and I don't agree with it.
It's like it doesn't matter whether you agree with it,
Like it's just different to you, and you've got to
recognize that there's nothing wrong about it. And this is
the beauty of the church. It's that, you know. I
think we've got to reclaim the term diversity, and diversity
(35:58):
is a wonderful thing, the beauty of the churches. We
all have giftings, we all different cultures, and one day
in heaven it's you know, there's what No.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I'm just like, you're going on this.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Oh, I'm sorry, sorry, and I'm just like it just sorry.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
It just gets to you whenever, like people think I
don't like my personality again, going to that is like
people are just so black and white. They think, you know,
here's what I'm just saying. They're right, Like I don't
remember what I was in sane now. Anyway, Sometimes I'm
(36:34):
just talking in the shower and then I'll be talking
and then I'll realize that Jule the bathroom like five
minutes ago, I'm talking to myself. But anyway, I.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Don't inten walk away from no, no, no.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I know it's not intentional.
Speaker 6 (36:47):
I may have I might have started after she left
and clarified that's probably it. But anyway, we just want
to be able to point people toward the Bible and
what who Jesus is and know that he could.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Be trusted even when people around you can't be trusted.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And you've been listening to Jill Duggart and her husband
Derek share their story being a part of TLC's huge
hit TV show that captivated the nation nineteen kids in Counting.
They share their story on the New York Times bestseller
Counting the Cost. My goodness, you're hearing about the cost.
(37:26):
One thing it didn't do was challenge their faith. In
the end, it brought them closer to their faith, have
them discover their faith walk in some ways or rediscovered
and their own their own and so often in life,
no matter what our walk is, there are challenges. Boy,
when you have that fame element, when you add the
(37:47):
reality TV element, it changes everything. And my goodness, what
Jill and Derek had to go through, what they had
to do, and the levity they have is a exhibit
towards the end of that their joy not start the
possibility for redeeming the relationships with their family members still there,
and their faith walk intact. The story of Jill Duggar
(38:09):
and her husband Derek, as told here on our American
Stories
This is Lee Habib, and this is Our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American people.
Search for the Our American Stories podcast go to the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jill Dugger and her husband Derek are here to share
(00:30):
their story, the unedited truth behind TLC's hit television show
that captivated the nation, Nineteen Kids and Counting. Their story
has become a New York Times instant bestseller with a
memoir called Counting the Cost. Let's take a listen.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hey, So I am Jill Dillard of Derek Dord Jill
and Derek Dillard. Here, I used to be Jill Ducker
and and I was part of a family with nineteen
kids in Counting. You may know about us from the
reality show TLC had for a long time running seventeen
(01:10):
Kids Accounting, eighteen Kids Accounting, and then nineteen Kids Accounting
and then counting on.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So they probably should have renamed it nineteen Kids Accounting
down once it started eighteen, because I think there's only
three kids under eighteen now, so that I think about you,
it could have been like counting eighteen kids in Counting.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Now seventeen kids, No, what was happening?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, it could be sound very violent.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Anyway, I grew up in a family with lots of kids,
and so we recently wrote a book Counting the Cost
that talks about our journey. So I really felt like
growing up on reality TV, my story was always going
to be continued to be told really for me, and
(01:51):
so in writing a book, I felt like, if the
story's already going to be told, I would rather be
the one telling it. So yeah, our story though goes
back to I grew up. I'm the second daughter in
the Dugger family, fourth born, and so growing up we
(02:13):
were different than a lot of families in that we
of course we're adding a new kid like every year
to our family, But then we were also part of
a group called IBLP.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
And that you can't, like job brush past the fact
that there's a kid being born every single year.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
So whenever or two there were two sets of twins or.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Two, yeah, but blows me away. Like early in our
relationship and even still now, we refer to different events
and I'll refer to like what grade I was in.
Joe will say, who is the baby when that happened?
So that's more the marker of time.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It is, well because because I was also homeschooled, so
I don't have I don't Derek was public school all
the way through. Yeah, I didn't have like the classroom
that I could identify with with a new teacher every year,
so literally it was like who is the baby?
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, and so that's how I remember the year of
something happening generally, but anyway, grew up in the Duggar family.
We were part of this group that kind of really
formed my family's views on a lot of things. So
whether it was homeschooling or just religious aspects.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
We were part of a group called.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
IBLP, which stands for Institute and Basic Life Principles, led
by Bill Gothard, and he had all these conferences where
he taught biblical principles that he kind of formed his
own opinion.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
About to the masses. When did it start the sixties.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Early sixties, I one don't callin that. It was like
nineteen sixty one.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So my parents were very influenced by that. And then
he also started Bill Gofford started this group called Atidan's
Training Institute for Homeschooling for our home school families and so.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It came later that was like in the early to
mid eighties, I believe.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
So my parents joined that group, and as a kid,
I remember it being a happy memory. We would go
to these conferences, these ATI conferences and be taught everything
from what the Bible says on how many kids you
should have to not drinking alcohol, to how many or
where you could should send your kids and where you
(04:27):
should not send your kids to school, and everything on
like the way you should dress to the music you
should listen to. So that's kind of my thought process
as a kid was this is what the Bible says,
this is what IBLP says, or ATI, this is the
way I should be living. So growing up we had
a lot of rules and standards that we were supposed.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
To keep to. Of course, a lot of love as
well in my family.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And then in the late nineties early two thousands, my
dad ran for political office, which then led to some
notoriety in our local area, and of course my parents
still having a bunch of kids, that caught the eye
of some TV producers who then asked my parents about
producing a one time documentary about my family, and that
(05:17):
ended up being the hit show.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I guess it was like the number one show on
Discovery Health at the time.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
It was kind of at the beginning of the reality
series era of things where somehow like Discovery and TLC
merged around them and everything. So they asked if my
parents would consider doing a few more documentaries and then
ended up launching into a reality show about my family.
(05:45):
So we but.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Not to you, not to cut you off, but I
think like a good way to kind of organize kind
of the fascination was starting a reality show, at least
from what I can see coming in because Joe kind
of grew up on reality TV. But I think what
was so fascinating and what made it doubly fascinating for
people on the outside, not only was the interest in
(06:11):
the logistics that took to raise a family of twenty
one two parents and nineteen children, but how unique the
lifestyle was because of this undergirding organization woven throughout daily
life and the institute and basic life principles.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Whether all the girls wore dresses or herbie or doing homeschooling, it.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Was obvious it was a parent Yeah, home schooled.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Some aspects of it are wonderful and some not so much.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, and You've been listening to Jill Duggar and her
husband Derek, and they're sharing their story of growing up
in this large family that lent itself to being filmed
by TLC, thus creating the massive hit show Nineteen Kids
(07:00):
and Counting. And so many of us have been curious, well,
what happened to them? How are they doing? How did
that affect their lives? We're learning right now a little
bit more about their lives. When we come back, we're
going to learn a lot more with Jill and Derek
Dillard telling the story of the story behind nineteen Kids
(07:21):
in County and the family behind the hit TV show.
Here on Our American Stories, Leehabibe here the host of
our American Stories. Every day on this show, we're bringing
inspiring stories from across this great country, stories from our
big cities and small towns. But we truly can't do
(07:44):
the show without you. Our stories are free to listen to,
but they're not free to make. If you love what
you hear, go to Ouramerican Stories dot com and click
the donate button. Give a little, give a lot. Go
to Ouramerican Stories dot com and give and we continue
(08:10):
with our American Stories and the story of Jill Dugger
and her husband Derek, and they were a part of
TLC's huge hit TV show that captivated this country, nineteen
kids in counting. Let's pick up with their story, and
let's pick up where we last left off.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Growing up, Like I really did have pretty much like
a happy childhood, I would say, And then we started
being part of this reality TV show. And I remember
like the first time the camera crew came to our
house and they like stuck a camera in my face
and I'm grating cheese and they're like, just be normal,
and I'm like okay. And but fast forward, we had
(08:53):
been on the reality TV show for a long time
and then in walks.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
My Prince Charmy, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
There you are, Derek. It was actually we were kind
of like set up by my dad. My dad introduced us,
so he and Derek didn't really you guys didn't really
even know each other. Though y'all were like prayer partners
because Derek was from our area, but we hadn't really met.
(09:21):
Some friends knew of our family because of the TV
show we were on, and they were Christmas caroling one
time and they're like, hey, we should go to the
Douggar's house and Christmas Carol because we want to meet them,
and he was, what were you like visiting from college
or something. He's nice, sure, yeah, so he was just
tagging along in this group of people. I vaguely remember that,
(09:45):
but like we didn't actually meet the Christmas Carol at
my family's house, which was not uncommon. I mean it
sounds weird, but like for complete strangers to show up
at our door was not uncommon and just like.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Want to say, hey, take a picture.
Speaker 5 (09:59):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
We eventually he got like a gate outside of our home,
so just to protect the family, like the kids running
around in the front.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yard probably got a versus zoo like like zoo animals.
I feel like you could slow.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Down seriously though sometimes I mean, it's not super weird,
but like I guess it is weird.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Whenever come a topic on the window, just kind of
look inside.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
There was a guy one time who like jumped the
fence and came up and thankfully, like I think, I
don't know what he would do that anyways, Yeah weird,
but okay, that's a side note.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
So Derek, he.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You had he had stopped by our house one time
just with that group but like didn't really know us,
but it was ripe that happened right before he was
supposed to go to Nepal to do mission work for
two years.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So yeah. A couple of years after I finished my
accounting degree, I went.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
To Oklahoma State University.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Shoutout go Pokes. Went to Oklahoma State University. A couple
of years after college, went to Nepal for a two
year mission term. We were tasked during our training in
Virginia to gather so many signatures of people who committed
to pray for us while we were on the mission
field for two years. And I went to a teeny
(11:14):
tiny like parishonall church, I was obviously going to need
prayer support from outside of our own church, so I
reached out to Jimbob and asked if he would be
one of the people to pray for me while I
was serving on the mission field in Nepal, and he
said sure. So I'd given him a prayer card like
I had everyone who had committed to pray for us,
(11:36):
and my blog was on the bottom of it, called
it Himalayan Cowboy at blogspot dot com because I was
actually I was.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Going to say, okay, he was actually the mascot mask.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I was the cowboy pistol pete.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
And I will say I will add he was the
first Legacy peete, so his dad was also the mascot
at Oklahoma State University.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
So it's like big, big deal.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Anyway, Anyway, that was my blog, so it was on
the card, and Jill actually just told me today that
like her dad was like reading my blog posts whenever
he was not talking to me on the phone, so
I guess in between he would keep up that way.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
He knew a lot about you enough to know that
he wanted.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
To introduce you to me and me to you.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Yes, so he did that. After about eighteen minds of
us kind of communicating monthly or so on updates on
the mission field, he said, well, my daughter Jill shares
a lot of common life goals as you, and I
think y'all would really hit it off. Jill and I
talked for the first time for like five and a
half hours on Skype. We say it was loving first Skype.
(12:38):
We had two five and a half hour long conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And Jill, because I told him this is what I
told him. I said, like I said, I said, I said,
it's kind of like throwing up. This was act I said,
because I hate confrontation. I hate like where I got
to ask all these questions and grill him on everything.
(13:02):
So I said, I just want to get it over
with and it's kind of like throwing up because you
feel much better afterwards.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
That's what I told you.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
You know, we don't want to waste our time and
realize five years later that she's actually Buddhist and I
don't really want to marry someone of it.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
But whatever it is, we want to do a line
on on our.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Goals in line and our philosophies.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Religious views, goals, whatever. So we wanted to find that
out from the get go. So we had long conversations
and basically I was like, okay, cool, I want to
get to know this guy better. So then I convinced
my dad to fly to Nepal with me, but we
had to take the entire film crew with us. Anyway,
(13:44):
we met over there in Nepal and we fell in love. Well.
Then fast forward, Derek comes back from Nepal. He starts
working as a tax accountant for.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Walmart in our area of corporate.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Then we get engaged pretty quick, get married, find out
we're expecting our first.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Child well, and we wanted to serve on the mission field.
That was kind of like the foundation for our relationships.
So even before we got engaged, like I enrolled in seminary,
my mom got cancer that same it was a semester
starting a new job. Like it was. It was a
lot we got engaged, like all in this ou at
same time.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, just a lot happened in that first year of
our marriage. We also had a lot of traumatic things
happened in our life around that time where it was
announced that the show ended up actually getting canceled in twenty.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Fifteen after our oldest was born.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, after it was reported I say loosely by tab
Lloyd's who.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
There was a point in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Where, working together with the city of Springdale and the
police chief and Washington County and in Duch Magazine together
they illegally released juvenile sexual abuse records, and so my
sisters and I were thrust into a very painful spotlight.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
That we never wanted to be in.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And not to protect my brother at all, who had
perpetrated these horrendous acts, but just as victims in the
system here, we felt like we were exploited and those
records should have never been released. So it was a
very very painful time for my sisters and I, and
(15:34):
the show got canceled and through a series of circumstances
which later we disagree with how it was all handled,
but we were forced to kind of help get the
show back up and going. So then Derek and I
are on the mission field and we just through all
(15:54):
of this. The show comes alive again and it's very
much portrayed to us like a family ministry, and it
comed out it was like impacting people's lives positively. We're
not saying it didn't ever, but for us that process
was very grueling. And then you add to the mix
a TV show, and basically it came down to the
(16:15):
point where we were on the mission field trying to
make decisions that were best for our family, and then
we find out that there's this contract that I was
tricked into signing by my own father, and regardless of
whatever intentions he may have had, it was very very
hard for me going from this like trusting relationship to
try and figure out how do I sort this out?
How to somebody that I love and trust seemingly take
(16:38):
advantage of me in this situation.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And you're listening to Jill Duger and her husband Derek
share their story, and my goodness, we all anticipated it
will be complicated. The idea of bringing TV cameras into
a family, well, that's going to create problems of its own,
but it's also going to reveal things to people that
they see in their own family. And there's a reason
why that show was a hit. And it wasn't so
(17:03):
much the prurient type of show like so many of
the reality TV shows. It was showing a family, a
big family, a big Christian family, trying to navigate life.
And we hear also about this just tumultuous year, a
year in which there's an engagement, a year where things
get released in this family to the public that but
(17:25):
for the TV show, may never have been released. And
then the discovery that her own father may have manipulated
her into signing a contract that she really didn't want
to sign or didn't know much about. When we continue
more of the story of Jill Duggar and her husband
Derek here on our American stories, And we continue with
(18:09):
our American stories and the story of Jill Dugger and
her husband Derek who share their experience in the TLC
hit TV show Nineteen Kids in counting their New York
Times instant bestseller, Counting the Cost chronicles some of those stories.
Let's pick up where we last left off. Here's Jill
(18:31):
and Derek Dillard.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It came to a point where we had to break
away from filming, so we left the show. We decided
to leave the show. We felt like.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
That that was what we need us to do.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
For our family, and so we stepped away from the
reality TV show, which continued to carry on for a
few more years, and started to make a life for
ourselves and kind of think for ourselves and just trying
to figure out who we were in the world and
who Christ wanted us to be, and what we were called,
how we were called to live our lives as a family,
and what was okay, what was not okay and sorting
(19:05):
through that and to kind of set up a.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Little bit going back to what I was saying earlier,
I think the IBLP created its own set of issues
and having a culture of taking the Bible, which is true,
and using it out of context to control and manipulate
for a specific agenda. And I feel like the show
this reality show just kind of poured gasoline on the
fire and allowed those issues to just be amplified that
(19:30):
much more. And when we got married in a Christian wedding,
you leave in cleve, you become your own family. And
we realized, like, in hindsight, was that just a ploy
because it seemed like this umbrell of authority meaning and
I keep referring to the umbrella of authority, this was.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
A specific teaching that they.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Had to teaching in the IBLP where the father is
over everyone in the family, but in the IBLP they
took it even further. And even for your kids who
were married, you were supposed to be under this umbrella
of authority. And that to me was completely contradictory to
scripture which says you leave in Cleveland become your own family.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Like if you moved outside the umbrella of authority and
you started making decisions that your parents did not approve
of or that you did not get their blessing on,
even as an adult, then you were opening yourself up
to potential harm, like you might get in a car accident,
and then that was the reason why, Like if you
got in this car accident, it might have been this
(20:29):
retribution theology type thing with this authority principle where you
caused it by getting out from under their authority type thing.
So that's like the extreme example. Other things that might
just be like, oh, you're facing problems in your life
because of not getting your parents blessing or whatever.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
So many of these things were used for control. And
then Jimbob was committing financial fraud and it very strongly
impacted our lives and we had to basically draw some
hard boundaries and say this is not okay. You know
this is wrong, and we we need to like take
some action to protect our own family. And the show
(21:07):
at this point was called Jill and Jessic Counting On.
And we had made a commitment on the mission field
to remain for a number of months, and we had
already shared.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
That this was our commitment whenever nobody seemed to have
a problem, nobody seemed to work with and it wasn't
even something that like we took the initiative to do.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Our supervisor at the time said, I need you to
commit to being here for this long and really establish
rapport with the people who live here and if they
see you going back and forth to the States, those
you was having one foot in, one foot out, and
not being very serious about your care for their lives spiritually, physically, otherwise.
(21:47):
And so we said, well, sure, yes, we can make
that commitment. We'll remain here and not go back to
the States. Jim Bob knew that we had committed to
remain on the mission field, and it was almost like,
not to be super sarcastic, but the way it just
came across was like, oh, well, that's cute, Like that's
great at the Jeweler making a commitment, but this is
(22:08):
the true ministry. Reality TV is what is truly the ministry.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
He really did view it eye the ministry.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, and like what you all are doing in all
Salvador's cube, it's almost like just to provide content for
the greater ministry.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
As like, I think he appreciated it.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
I'm not saying he didn't appreciate it, but he almost
saw it as a subset of the true ministry because
it wasn't as great numbers based as the filming ministry,
which again personally I would disagree, which is because the
gospel itself was not presented, it was not tagged as
like a Christian show. It was a show about Christians.
(22:42):
But that's a side note. But they asked us to
come back to Houston to this filming shoot. It was yeah,
they asked us to come.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Back for this promotional shoot the network. Yeah, the network
wanted us to film this promotional shoot, which happened once
or twice a year generally, and so we were askeered
to come back to the States for this from Central
America where we were serving as missionaries, and we said no.
It just got very very heated, to the point where
they present us with this contract and they say, well, actually,
(23:13):
it's almost like no, I'm more mister nice guy.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Here you go. Here's this contract.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
You actually are obligated to come back.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
You have to. And we were shocked.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
We look at this and we're like, what where did
this come from. We end up finding out that this
is the piece of paper that my dad had set
before me the day before we got married, with no
understanding of what it was, no papers to even read
about what this was that I was signing, and I
was made to believe, when I had asked about it
at the time, that this was just about how I
(23:43):
was going to get paid and.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Which was which was a lie. In one aspect of
the financial fraud, it's even more clear now as an
attorney and more specifically as a prosecutor, it was very
much financial fraud. Jill was told that this was about
how you're going to get paid, but that was materially wrong.
It wasn't image to a small mistake materially different than
what it actually was in reality. If you were to
(24:04):
be explicit about what the answer should have been, it
should have been, this is about how you're not going
to get paid, and your payment will come when we
die as part of your inheritance, and you're also obligated.
And this was complete and this was completely left out
of that of what the single page with one line
on it that she was asked to sign when I
(24:26):
wasn't even aware of it. I wasn't even in the room,
which is a different story, but that you're also committing
all these like basically your whole life for the next
five years, the first five years of our marriage, without
ever telling Jill or having her ask me if this
is something that we want to start our lives on
and tomorrow, so we didn't know what it was. The
(24:49):
other aspect of the financial fraud was the more we
dug into it. As we uncovered things, it was oh,
we're sorry, like we should have xys.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
We just wanted transparency exactly, we very much want to transparency.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
And the hope would have been, okay, now that we
realize the error of our way is like you should
also know that this that this is the situation too.
But it was almost like Jill's dad Jim Bob doug
his heels in and then just like oh, well you
figure that out. But I'm sorry, but I'm not going
to reveal anything else that I've got you yet locked
(25:22):
down into and then we get to tell you discover
later on. And then we uncovered some more stuff that
was basically him on his taxes and the taxes of
the other children reporting income as for other people to
lessen his tax liability. He was going to be one
hundred percent the one be paid, and I will choose
(25:43):
how I want to help you all, like if I
want to basically, if you're my good graces, I'll help
you and that'll be my way of like quote unquote
paying you, but that's not going to be reported as payment.
I'm showing on paper that I'm paying all of you all,
but I'm controlling one hundred percent of the finances. If
you want to get paid, then I'm disinheriting you because
(26:03):
I count that as your inheritance. So if you want,
if you're going to threaten me with a lawsuit, then
you can just count on not You've already gotten your inheritance,
so you can just be counted out because that was
supposed to be inheritized.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
Should have been earned income.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, but so India, we had some pretty understandably some
pretty crazy conversations.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
And you've been listening to Jill Duggart and her husband
Derek share their story, a story behind the story of
TLC's hit television show that captivated a nation nineteen kids
in counting, and so much had been written about it
at the time, documentaries The Whole nine Yards, but hearing
from Jill and her husband directly about their family, what
(26:48):
happened to them after the reality show, as they both said,
how to create a life for themselves and think for
themselves outside of that ecosystem them one created by a
dad and a reality television show and fame, the overlay
of fame having such a dramatic impact on anybody who
(27:11):
encounters and anyone will tell you the stories of what
fame can do almost anybody. When we come back, more
of this story, the story of Jill Dugger and her
husband Derek here on our American Stories and we continue
(27:37):
with our American Stories and Jill Dugger and her husband
Derek sharing their story of life during and after TLC's
hit television show nineteen Kids in Counting. Their memoir Counting
and the Cost is available on Amazon and the usual suspects.
(27:58):
Let's pick up when we last left off.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
For us, finding a Christian lifcense therapist was very important,
aligned with where we.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
Wanted to be, well, not even aligned with where we
wanted to be, aligned with scripture, because I think it's
important to note that you don't want to look for
yes people, people who are just going to affirm whatever
you're seeking out, because I think that's dangerous too. Yes,
but there's wisdom and counts, but finding people who are
outside of the situation, they don't stand anything to gain
or lose, but who recognize the Bible as the authority
(28:28):
that it is, and who can you know, challenge you,
who can affirm you, who can make you realize sometimes
that you're not crazy, and help you realize give you
tools basically to work through a lot of problems and
maintain a strong faith.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So as we sorted through some of that and over time,
then we thought about writing a book. And it was
something that I was kind of scared to do because
I still love my family and it and it intertwines
a lot with my family and growing up in reality
TV and all of those dynamics. So right now, I
(29:03):
feel like it's kind of the aftermath of the book
right now where we just have to give some space,
allow other people some space, because I understand like there's
a lot of difficult content in the book, and my
relationship with my parents now is very complicated. I don't
just hang out like we used to my parents. I'm
(29:24):
not going to speak for them, but I don't think
they were super happy about the book. I mean, we
did get a text message after the announcement of the book,
but before it came out, just not yeah expressing they
were expressing. My dad specifically was like expressing his opinion
(29:44):
on it, and he was telling my other siblings like,
if you say anything negative, you're going to be cut
out of the inheritance, and like saying like we owe
our lives to Bill Gothards. So I think there's still
negativity and harming. The image is is sinful because it's
not honoring to your family of origin or something. But
(30:06):
I think what is honoring is telling the truth and
not doing it out of the wrong spirit, not doing
it with a motive to just hurt or expose, but
really just telling my story, telling our story, the journey
that we've been on, with the intention of helping other
(30:28):
people who have probably faced the same things that we have,
whether it's because of religious upbringing, legalism, family dynamics. Actually,
I would like to read this first part of the book.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It is very and again in this culture like it's
the isolation that a lot of times is used to
perpetuate abuse and this idea that people are made to
feel like they're on an island and don't talk to
others they wouldn't understand. We want to be able to
pass out along for other people by sharing our story
to so.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
In the prologue, well, I guess it's not the prologue, actually,
it's just the intro.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
There's the portion that I would like to read. So
it says to.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Those who have been harmed in the name of religion
to those who have suffered behind closed doors and have
yet to find their voice. To those who have begun
to find their voice but may still be living in
a season of isolation. To those who, like Esther and
the Old Testament Bible story, have courageously answered the call
for such a time as this, and despite the backlash,
(31:29):
have now found their voice. From victims and survivors to strangers, family,
and friends, this book is dedicated to you. May you
all know that you are not alone, that your story,
your voice, and your mental health matter. The Lord is
a stronghold for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of
trouble Psalm nine to nine. So that's why we wrote
(31:50):
the book is for these people mentioned here and then
in the back of the book, in the author's note
I want to read, another portion says what this book
is not.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
This book is not.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
A letter to my family as part of the reconciliation process.
I also didn't write this book to shame my family
or just to try and get their attention. We will
continue to work through matters with family independent of this book,
with the desired ultimate goal of healthy relationships. Lord Willing,
We understand that no family is perfect and that you
(32:22):
can recognize the beauty in your story while still acknowledging
the difficult parts and even setting boundaries. It shouldn't make
you unloving. It's like roses and thorns. The two can coexist,
and I do love my family. The highs aren't invalidated
by the lows, and vice versa. Everyone's story will look
different just because some problems weren't intentional, or one story
(32:47):
isn't as bad as the next person's shouldn't invalidate the
real problems or minimize the story. And the degree to
which we felt this book needed to be written was
the degree to which we felt like voices were still
being silenced and real harm was continuing to be done
by not telling it. Yeah, it's it's been a journey,
but well.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
And I think it's important too, like that there's a
lot of things crossroads at different points that kind of
affected our direction in life, and we're already trying to
establish our own family identity the day we got married
and realized that we weren't able to like, we're just
being tied down for the next five years. But then,
especially whenever the injustice was with the Jillner sisters, information
(33:34):
being released like I wanted to punch someone and you know,
down Washington County or the city of Springdale, but realized
it's probably not very Christian, that would not be christ
like of me. But I can we can invest in
getting legal education and trying to make sure that that
doesn't happen to other people, or at least we can
affect some positive change to make sure that kids don't,
(33:58):
you know, remain sign whenever they're trying to expose their abuser,
because they don't know, looking at Jill, if this is
a safe place, because well what if I'm one day exposed,
you know, and everyone's going to know these horrible details
about me.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
So Derek's able to advocate now every day for people
in the justice system and his job that he has
advocating for people and being a voice for the voiceless.
So he's been my advocate and now he's an advocate
for so many other people, and I'm so proud of him. So, yeah,
we're just trying to be a positive light through some
(34:34):
tough stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yeah, and also for people to realize that, you know,
whenever you face difficulty, a lot of people don't have
a safe place to land, and they end up going
off the deep end and leaving their faith, and like,
you know, it's so hard to just maintain the straight
and arrow and not go off to the right, not
to the left, but down the straight and narrow. And
we really feel like that's kind of one of the
themes of our journey, that's just trying to maintain that,
(34:57):
Like we.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Want them to see our voice coming through this, that
you can be strong, you can hold to your faith,
but relying on Christ to get you through these hard
times because we can't do it alone, and as Christians,
like we cannot do it in our own strength.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
True freedom is found in Christ's outside, from the law,
seeking the Lord, seeking who He's called us to be.
The Church is a diverse group. I think a lot
of times in the church we think it's very cookie cutter,
like if you don't pass the plate at ten o'clock
at the beginning versus the end of the service, that
you're doing something wrong. Is this wrong because it's just
different to me, or is it actually wrong. You go
to some cultures and it's like, well, they're beating their wives. No,
(35:35):
that's not just part of their culture. That's wrong in
whatever culture it is. But if you go and you're like, well,
this music is weird and I don't agree with it.
It's like it doesn't matter whether you agree with it,
Like it's just different to you, and you've got to
recognize that there's nothing wrong about it. And this is
the beauty of the church. It's that, you know. I
think we've got to reclaim the term diversity, and diversity
(35:58):
is a wonderful thing, the beauty of the churches. We
all have giftings, we all different cultures, and one day
in heaven it's you know, there's what No.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I'm just like, you're going on this.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Oh, I'm sorry, sorry, and I'm just like it just sorry.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
It just gets to you whenever, like people think I
don't like my personality again, going to that is like
people are just so black and white. They think, you know,
here's what I'm just saying. They're right, Like I don't
remember what I was in sane now. Anyway, Sometimes I'm
(36:34):
just talking in the shower and then I'll be talking
and then I'll realize that Jule the bathroom like five
minutes ago, I'm talking to myself. But anyway, I.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Don't inten walk away from no, no, no.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I know it's not intentional.
Speaker 6 (36:47):
I may have I might have started after she left
and clarified that's probably it. But anyway, we just want
to be able to point people toward the Bible and
what who Jesus is and know that he could.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Be trusted even when people around you can't be trusted.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And you've been listening to Jill Duggart and her husband
Derek share their story being a part of TLC's huge
hit TV show that captivated the nation nineteen kids in Counting.
They share their story on the New York Times bestseller
Counting the Cost. My goodness, you're hearing about the cost.
(37:26):
One thing it didn't do was challenge their faith. In
the end, it brought them closer to their faith, have
them discover their faith walk in some ways or rediscovered
and their own their own and so often in life,
no matter what our walk is, there are challenges. Boy,
when you have that fame element, when you add the
(37:47):
reality TV element, it changes everything. And my goodness, what
Jill and Derek had to go through, what they had
to do, and the levity they have is a exhibit
towards the end of that their joy not start the
possibility for redeeming the relationships with their family members still there,
and their faith walk intact. The story of Jill Duggar
(38:09):
and her husband Derek, as told here on our American
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