April 30, 2025 • 38 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, Jill Duggar and her husband, Derick, share the unedited truth behind TLC’s hit television show that captivated the nation, 19 Kids and Counting. Their story has become a New York Times instant bestseller with their memoir, Counting the Cost.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Lee Habib, and this is Our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American people.
Search for the Our American Stories podcast go to the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jill Duger and her husband Derek are here to share
(00:30):
their story, the unedited truth behind TLC's hit television show
that captivated the nation, Nineteen Kids and Counting. Their story
has become a New York Times instant bestseller with a
memoir called Counting the Cost. Let's take a listen.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hey, So I am Jill Dillard of Derek Dillard Jill
and Derek Dillard. Here, I used to be Jill Ducker
and and I was part of a family with nineteen
kids in Counting. You may know about us from the
reality show TLC had for a long time running seventeen
(01:10):
Kids Accounting, eighteen Kids Accounting, and then nineteen Kids Accounting
and then counting on.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So they probably should have renamed it nineteen Kids Accounting
down once it started eighteen because I think there's only
three kids under eighteen now, so that.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Thinks about you.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
It could have been like counting eighteen kids in Counting.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Now seventeen kids though what was happening?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, it could be sound very violent.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Anyway, I grew up in a family with lots of kids,
and so we recently wrote a book Counting the Cost
that talks about our journey. So I really felt like
growing up on reality TV, my story was always going
to be continued to be told really for me, and
(01:51):
so in writing a book, I felt like, if the
story's already going to be told, I would rather be
the one telling it. So yeah, our story, though goes
back to I grew up. I'm the second daughter in
the Dougger family, fourth born, and so growing up we
(02:13):
were different than a lot of families in that we
of course we're adding a new kid like every year
to our family, But then we were also part of
a group called IBLP and.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
That you can't like job rush past the fact that
there's a kid being born every single year.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So whenever or two there were two sets of twins
or two.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, but blows me away, Like early in our relationship
and even still now we refer to different events and
I'll refer to like what grade I was in, Joe
will say who is the baby when that happened? So
that's more the marker of time.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It is, well because because I was also homeschooled, so
I don't have I don't Derek was public school all
the way through. Yeah, I didn't have like the classroom
that I could identify with with a new teacher every year.
So literally it was like who is the baby? Okay? Yeah,
and so that's how I remember the year of something
happening generally, But anyway, grew up in the Duggar family.
(03:13):
We were part of this group that kind of really
formed my family's views on a lot of things. So
whether it was homeschooling or just religious aspects. We were
part of a group called IBLP, which stands for Institute
and Basic Life Principles, led by Bill Gothard, and he
(03:34):
had all these conferences where he taught biblical principles that
he kind of formed his own opinion about to the masses.
When did it start the sixties?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Early sixties, I one don't callin that. It was like
nineteen sixty one.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So my parents were very influenced by that. And then
he also started Bill Gofford started this group called ati
AD its Training Institute for Homeschooling for home school families
and so it.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Came later that was like in the early to mid eighties,
I believe, so.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
My parents joined that group, and as a kid, I
remember it being a happy memory. We would go to
these conferences, these ATI conferences and be taught everything from
what the Bible says on how many kids you should
have to not drinking alcohol, to how many or where
you could should send your kids and where you should
(04:27):
not send your kids to school, and everything on like
the way you should dress, to the music you should
listen to. So that's kind of my thought process as
a kid was this is what the Bible says, this
is what IBLP says, or ATI, this is the way
I should be living. So growing up we had a
lot of rules and standards that we were supposed to
(04:49):
keep to. Of course a lot of love as well
in my family. And then in the late nineties early
two thousands, my dad ran for political office, which then
led to some notoriety in our local area, and of
course my parents still having a bunch of kids, that
caught the eye of some TV producers who then asked
(05:10):
my parents about producing a one time documentary about my family,
and that ended up being the hit show. I guess
it was like the number one show on Discovery Health
at the time. It was kind of at the beginning
of the reality series era of things where somehow like
(05:32):
Discovery and TLC merged around them and everything. So they
asked if my parents would consider doing a few more
documentaries and then ended up launching into a reality show
about my family. So we but sorry not to.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Not to cut you off, but I think like a
good way to kind of organize kind of the fascination
was starting a reality show, at least from what I
can see coming in because Joe kind of grew up
on reality TV. But I think what was so fascinating
and what made it doubly fascinating for people on the outside,
not all they was the interest in the logistics that
(06:12):
took to raise a family of twenty one two parents
and nineteen children. But how unique the lifestyle was because
of this undergirding organization woven throughout daily life and the
institute and basic life principles.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Whether all the girls wore dresses.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Or herbie or doing homeschooling, it.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Is obvious it was a parent yeah schooled.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Some aspects of it are wonderful and some not so much.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah and You've been listening to Jill Dugger and her
husband Derek, and they're sharing their story of growing up
in this large family that lent itself to being filmed
by TLC, thus creating the massive hit show Nineteen Kids
(07:00):
and Counting. And so many of us have been curious, well,
what happened to them, How are they doing? How did
that affect their lives? We're learning right now a little
bit more about their lives. When we come back, we're
going to learn a lot more with Jill and Derek
Dillard telling the story of the story behind nineteen Kids
(07:21):
in County and the family behind the hit TV show.
Here on Our American Stories, Lee Habib here the host
of our American Stories. Every day on this show, we're
bringing inspiring stories from across this great country, stories from
our big cities and small towns. But we truly can't
(07:44):
do the show without you. Our stories are free to
listen to, but they're not free to make. If you
love what you hear, go to Ouramerican Stories dot com
and click the donate button. Give a little, give a lot.
Go to Ouramerican Stories dot com and give and we
(08:09):
continue with our American Stories and the story of Jill
Dugger and her husband Derek, and they were a part
of TLC's huge hit TV show that captivated this country,
nineteen kids in counting. Let's pick up with their story,
and let's pick up where we last left off.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Growing up, Like I really did have pretty much like
a happy childhood, I would say. And then we started
being part of this reality TV show. And I remember
like the first time the camera crew came to our
house and they like stuck a camera in my face
and I'm grating cheese and they're like just be normal,
and I'm like okay. And but fast forward, we had
(08:53):
been on the reality TV show for a long time
and then in walks my Prince Charmy, right, yeah, right
there you are, Derek. It was actually we were kind
of like set up by my dad. My dad introduced us,
so he and Derek didn't really you guys didn't really
(09:14):
even know each other. Though y'all were like prayer partners
because Derek was from our area, but we hadn't really met.
Some friends knew of our family because of the TV
show we were on, and they were Christmas caroling one
time and they're like, hey, we should go to the
Douggar's house and Christmas Carroll because we want to meet them,
and he was, what were you like visiting from college
(09:36):
or something year. He's nice, sure, yeah, so he was
just tagging along in this group of people. I vaguely
remember that. But like we didn't actually meet the Christmas
Carol at my family's house, which was not uncommon. I
mean it sounds weird, but like for complete strangers to
show up at our door was not uncommon and just
(09:56):
like want to say, hey, take a picture. Whatever. We
eventually got like a gate outside of our home, so
just to protect the family, like the kids running around
in the front yard probably got a.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Versus zoo like like like zoo animals. I feel like
you could slow.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Down seriously though sometimes I mean, it's not super weird,
but like I guess it is weird whenever.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Come a tap up on the window, just kind of
looking aside.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
There was a guy one time who like jumped the
fence and came up and thankfully, like I think, I
don't know what he would like anyways, Yeah weird, but okay,
that's a side note. So Derek, he you had he
had stopped by our house one time just with that group,
but like didn't really know U, but it was ripe.
(10:41):
That happened right before he was supposed to go to
Nepal to do mission work for two years.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So yeah, A couple of years after I finished my
accounting degree, I went.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
To Oklahoma State University.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Shoutout go Pokes. Went to Oklahoma State University. A couple
of years after college, went to Nepal for a two
year mission term. We were tasked during our training in
Virginia to gather so many signatures of people who committed
to pray for us while we were on the mission
field for two years. And I went to a teeny tiny,
(11:14):
like Paris small church. I was obviously going to need
prayer support from outside of our own church, so I
reached out to Jim Bob and asked if he would
be one of the people to pray for me while
I was serving on the mission field in Nepal, and
he said sure, So I'd given him a prayer card
like I had everyone who had committed to pray for us,
(11:35):
and my blog was on the bottom of it, called
it Himalayan Cowboy at blogspot dot com because I was
and was actually was.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I was going to say Okay, he was actually the
mascot the mask.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I was the cowboy pistol.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Heat and I will say I will add he was
the first Legacy peete, so his dad was also the
mascot at Oklahoma State University. Ye, so it's like big anyway.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Anyway, that was my blog, so it was on the card.
And Jill actually just told me today that like her
dad was like reading my blog posts whenever he was
not talking to me on the phone, so I guess
in between he would keep up that way.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
He knew a lot about you enough to know that
he wanted to introduce you to me and me to you.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Yes, so he did that after about eighteen minds of
us kind of communicating monthly or so on updates on
the mission field. He said, well, my daughter Jill shares
a lot of common life goals as you, and I
think y'all would really hit it off. Jill and I
talked for the first time for like five and a
half hours on Skype. We say it was loving first Skype.
(12:38):
We had two five and a half hour long conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And Jill, because I told him this is what I
told him, I said, I said, I said it, I said,
it's kind of like throwing up. This was aft, I said,
because I hate confrontation. I hate like where I got
to ask all these questions and grill him on everything.
(13:02):
So I said, I just want to get over with
and throw It's kind of like throwing up because you
feel much better afterwards. That's what I told you. You know,
we don't want to waste.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Our time and realize five years later that she's actually Buddhist.
And I don't really want to marry someone.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
But whatever it is, we want to do a line
on on our goals, in line in our philosophies and
religious views, goals whatever. So we wanted to find that
out from the get go. So we had long conversations
and basically I was like, Okay, cool, I want to
get to know this guy better. So then I convinced
my dad to fly to Nepal with me, but we
(13:41):
had to take the entire film crew with us. Anyway,
we met over there in Nepal and we fell in love. Well,
then fast forward, Derek comes back from Nepal. He starts
working as a tax accountant for Walmart in our area
of corporate. Then we get engaged pretty quick, get married,
(14:02):
find out we're expecting our first.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Child well, and we wanted to serve on the mission field.
That was kind of like the foundation for our relationships.
So even before we got engaged, like I enrolled in seminary,
my mom got cancer that same it was a semester
starting a new job.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Like it was.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
It was a lot we got engaged, like all in
this out at the same time.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, just a lot happened in that first year of
our marriage. We also had a lot of traumatic things
happened in our life around that time where it was
announced that the show ended up actually getting canceled in twenty.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Fifteen after our oldest was born.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, after it was reported I say loosely by tab
Lloyd's who. There was a point in twenty fifteen where,
working together with the city of Springdale and the police
chief and Washington County and in Touch magazine together they
(15:00):
illegally released juvenile sexual abuse records, and so my sisters
and I were thrust into a very painful spotlight that
we never wanted to be in. And not to protect
my brother at all, who had perpetrated these horrendous acts,
but just as victims in the system here, we felt
(15:25):
like we were exploited and those records should have never
been released. So it was a very very painful time
for my sisters and I, and the show got canceled
and through a series of circumstances which later we disagree
with how it was all handled, but we were forced
to kind of help get the show back up and going.
(15:48):
So then Derek and I are on the mission field
and we just through all of this. The show comes
alive again, and it's very much portrayed to us like
a family ministry, and it no doubt it was like
impacting people's lives positively. We're not saying it didn't ever,
but for us that process was very grueling. And then
(16:10):
you add to the mix a TV show, and basically
it came down to the point where we were on
the mission field trying to make decisions that were best
for our family, and then we find out that there's
this contract that I was tricked into signing by my
own father, and regardless of whatever intentions he may have had,
it was very very hard for me going from this
(16:31):
like trusting relationship to try and figure out how do
I sort this out? How to somebody that I love
and trust seemingly take advantage of me in.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
This situation, and you're listening to Jill Dugger and her
husband Derek share their story, and my goodness, we all
anticipated it will be complicated. The idea of bringing TV
cameras into a family, well, that's going to create problems
of its own, but it's also going to reveal things
to people that they see in their own family. And
(17:00):
there's a reason why that show was a hit. And
it wasn't so much the prurient type of show like
so many of the reality TV shows. It was showing
a family, a big family, a big Christian family, trying
to navigate life. And we hear also about this just
tumultuous year, a year in which there's an engagement, a
(17:20):
year where things get released in this family to the public,
but for the TV show may never have been released.
And then the discovery that her own father may have
manipulated her into signing a contract that she really didn't
want to sign or didn't know much about. When we
continue more of the story of Jill Dugger and her
(17:42):
husband Derek here on our American stories, and we continue
(18:08):
with our American stories and the story of Jill Dugger
and her husband Derek who share their experience in the
TLC hit TV show Nineteen Kids in counting their New
York Times instant bestseller, Counting the Cost chronicles some of
those stories. Let's pick up where we last left off.
(18:30):
Here's Jill and Derek Dillard.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It came to a point where we had to break
away from filming, so we left the show. We decided
to leave the show. We felt like that that was
what we need us to do for our family, and
so we stepped away from the reality TV show, which
continued to carry on for a few more years, and
started to make a life for ourselves and kind of
think for ourselves and just trying to figure out who
(18:56):
we were in the world and who Christ wanted us
to be, and what we were called, how we were
called to live our lives as a family, and what
was okay, what was not okay and.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Sorting through that and to kind of set up a
little bit going back to what I was saying earlier,
I think the IBLP created its own set of issues
and having a culture of taking the Bible, which is true,
and using it out of context to control and manipulate
for a specific agenda. And I feel like the show
this reality show just kind of poured gasoline on the
(19:27):
fire and allowed those issues to just be amplified that
much more. And when we got married in a Christian wedding,
you leave in cleve, you become your own family. And
we realized, like, in hindsight, was that just a ploy
because it seemed like this umbrella of authority meaning and
I keep referring to the umbrella of authority.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
This was a specific teaching that they.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Had to teaching in the IBLP where the father is
over everyone in the family, but in the IBLP they
took it even further. And even for your kids who
were married, you were still supposed to be under this
umbrella of authority. And that to me was completely contradictory
to scripture which says you leave in Cleveland become your
own family.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Like if you moved outside the umbrella of authority and
you started making decisions that your parents did not approve
of or that you did not get their blessing on,
even as an adult, then you were opening yourself up
to potential harm, like you might get in a car accident,
and then that was the reason why, Like if you
got in this car accident, it might have been this
(20:29):
retribution theology type thing with this authority principle where you
caused it by getting out from under their authority type thing.
So that's like the extreme example. Other things it might
just be like, oh, you're facing problems in your life
because of not getting your parents blessing or whatever.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
So many of these things were used for control. And
then Jimbob was committing financial fraud and it very strongly
impacted our lives and we had to basically draw some
hard boundaries and say this is not okay. You know
this is wrong, and we we need to like take
some action to protect our own family. And the show
(21:07):
at this point was called Jill Andesic Counting On. And
we had made a commitment on the mission field to
remain for a number of months, and we had already
shared that this was our commitment whenever.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Nobody seemed to have a problem, nobody seemed.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
To work with and it wasn't even something that like
we took the initiative to do. Our supervisor at the
time said, I need you to commit to being here
for this long and really established rapport with the people
who live here, and if they see you going back
and forth to the States, those you was having one
foot in, one foot out, and not being very serious
(21:43):
about your care for their lives spiritually, physically, otherwise. And
so we said, well, sure, yes, we can make that commitment.
We'll remain here and not go back to the States.
Jim Bob knew that we had committed to remain on
the mission field, and it was almost like, not to
be super sarcastic, but the way it just came across
was like, oh, well, that's cute, Like that's great at
(22:05):
the Jeweler making a commitment, but this is the true ministry.
Reality TV is what is truly the ministry.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
He really did view it, ay the ministry.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, and like what you all are doing in all
Salvador's cube, but it's almost like just to provide content for
the greater ministry.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
As like, I think he appreciated it.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
I'm not saying he didn't appreciate it, but he almost
saw it as a subset of the true ministry because
it wasn't as great numbers based as the filming ministry,
which again personally I would disagree, which is because the
gospel itself was not presented, it was not tagged as
like a Christian show. It was a show about Christians.
(22:42):
But that's a side note. But they asked us to
come back to Houston to this filming shoot. It was
in Yeah, they asked.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Us to come back for this promotional shoot the network. Yeah,
the network wanted us to film this promotional shoot, which
happened once or twice a year generally, And so we
were asked to come back to the States for this
from Central America where we were serving as missionaries, and
we said no. It just got very very heated, to
the point where they present us with this contract and
(23:11):
they say, well, actually, it's almost like no, I'm more
mister nice guy. Here you go. Here's this contract. You
actually are obligated to come back. You have to. And
we were shocked. We look at this and we're like,
what where did this come from. We end up finding
out that this is the piece of paper that my
dad had set before me the day before we got married,
with no understanding of what it was, no papers to
(23:34):
even read about what this was that I was signing,
and I was made to believe, when I had asked
about it at the time, that this was just about
how I was going to get.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Paid and which was which was a lie. In one
aspect of the financial fraud. It's even more clear now
as an attorney and more specifically as a prosecutor, it
was very much financial fraud. Jill was told that this
was about how you're going to get paid, but that
was materially wrong. It wasn't even just a small mistake
materially different than what it actually was in reality. If
(24:04):
you were to be explicit about what the answer should
have been, it should have been, this is about how
you're not going to get paid, and your payment will
come when we die as part of your inheritance, and
you're also obligated. And this was completely and this was
completely left out of the of what this single page
with one line on it that she was asked to
sign when I wasn't even aware of it. I wasn't
(24:27):
even in the room, which is a different story, but
that you're also committing all these like basically your whole
life for the next five years, the first five years
of our marriage, without ever telling Jill or having her
ask me if this is something that we want to
start our lives on and tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So we didn't know what.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
The other aspect of the financial fraud was. The more
we dug into it. As we uncovered things, it was oh,
we're sorry, like we should have x Y.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
We just wanted transparency exactly, We very much want to transparency.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
And the hope would have been, okay, now that we
realize the error of our way is like you should
also know that this that this is the situation too.
But it was almost like Jill's dad Jim Bob Doug
his heels in and then just like, oh, well you
figure that out. But I'm sorry, but I'm not going
to reveal anything else that I've got you yet locked
(25:21):
down into and then we get to tell you discover
later on. And then we uncovered some more stuff that
was basically him on his taxes and the taxes of
the other children reporting income as for other people to
lessen his tax liability. He was going to be one
hundred percent the one be paid, and I will choose
(25:43):
how I want to help you all, like if I
want to basically, if you're my good graces, I'll help you,
and that'll be my way of like quote unquote paying you,
but that's not going to be reported as payment. I'm
showing on paper that I'm paying all of you all,
but I'm controlling one hundred percent of the finances. If
you want to get paid, then I'm disinheriting you because
(26:03):
I count that as your inheritance. So if you want,
if you're gonna threaten me with a lawsuit, then you
can just count on not You've already gotten your inheritance,
so you can just be counted out because that was
supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Inheritized, should have been earned income. Yeah, but so in
the end, we had some pretty understandably some pretty crazy conversations.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
And you've been listening to Jill Duggart and her husband
Derek share their story, the story behind the story of
TLC's hit television show that captivated a nation nineteen kids
in counting, and so much had been written about it
at the time, documentaries The Whole nine Yards, but hearing
from Jill and her husband directly about their family, what
(26:48):
happened to them after the reality show, as they both said,
how to create a life for themselves and think for
themselves outside of that ecosystem one created by a dad
and a reality television show and fame, the overlay of
fame having such a dramatic impact on anybody who encounters
(27:12):
and anyone will tell you the stories of what fame
can do to almost anybody. When we come back, more
of this story, the story of Jill Dugger and her
husband Derek here on our American Stories and we continue
(27:37):
with our American Stories and Jill Dugger and her husband
Derek sharing their story of life during and after TLC's
hit television show nineteen Kids in Counting. Their memoir Counting
and the Cost is available on Amazon and the usual suspects.
(27:58):
Let's pick up when we last left off.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
For us, finding a Christian license therapist was very important,
aligned with where we wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Well, not even aligned with where we wanted to be,
aligned with scripture, because I think it's important to note
that you don't want to look for yes people, people
who are just going to affirm whatever you're seeking out,
because I think that's dangerous too.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yes, but there's wisdom and counts, but.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Finding people who are outside of the situation, they don't
stand anything to gain or lose, but who recognize the
Bible as the authority that it is, and who can
you know, challenge you, who can affirm you, who can
make you realize sometimes that you're not crazy and help
you realize, give you tools. Basically to work through a
lot of problems and maintain a strong faith. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So as we sorted through some of that and over time,
then we thought about writing a book. And it was
something that I was kind of scared to do because
I still love my family and it and it intertwines
a lot with my family and growing up in reality
TV and all of those dynamics. So right now, I
(29:03):
feel like it's kind of the aftermath of the book
right now where we just have to give some space,
allow other people some space, because I understand like there's
a lot of difficult content in the book, and my
relationship with my parents now is very complicated. I don't
just hang out like we used to my parents. I'm
(29:24):
not going to speak for them, but I don't think
they were super happy about the book. I mean, we
did get a text message after the announcement of the book,
but before it came out, just not yeah expressing they
were expressing. My dad specifically was like expressing his opinion
(29:44):
on it, and he was telling my other siblings like,
if you say anything negative, you're going to be cut
out of the inheritance, and like saying like we owe
our lives to bilk authors. So I think there's still
negativity and harming. The image is is sinful because it's
not honoring to your family of origin or something. But
(30:06):
I think what is honoring is telling the truth and
not doing it out of the wrong spirit, not doing
it with a motive to just hurt or expose, but
really just telling my story, telling our story, the journey
that we've been on, with the intention of helping other
(30:28):
people who have probably faced the same things that we have,
whether it's because of religious upbringing, legalism, family dynamics. Actually,
I would like to read this first part of the books.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It is very and again in this culture like it's
the isolation that a lot of times is used to
perpetuate abuse and this idea that people are made to
feel like they're on an island and don't talk to
others they wouldn't understand. We want to be able to
pass out along for other people by sharing our story too.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
So in the prologue, well, I guess it's not the prologue, actually,
it's just the intro. There's the portion that I would
like to read. So it says, to those who have
been harmed in the name of religion, to those who
have suffered behind closed doors and have yet to find
their voice. To those who have begun to find their
voice but may still be living in a season of isolation.
(31:20):
To those who, like Esther and the Old Testament Bible story,
have courageously answered the call for such a time as this,
and despite the backlash, have now found their voice. From
victims and survivors to strangers, family, and friends, this book
is dedicated to you. May you all know that you
are not alone, that your story, your voice, and your
(31:41):
mental health matter. The Lord is a stronghold for the oppressed,
a stronghold in times of trouble Psalm nine to nine.
So that's why we wrote the book. Is for these
people mentioned here and then in the back of the book,
in the author's note I want to read, another portion
says what this book is not. This book is not
(32:02):
a letter to my family as part of the reconciliation process.
I also didn't write this book to shame my family
or just to try and get their attention. We will
continue to work through matters with family independent of this book,
with the desired ultimate goal of healthy relationships. Lord Willing,
We understand that no family is perfect and that you
can recognize the beauty in your story while still acknowledging
(32:25):
the difficult parts and even setting boundaries. It shouldn't make
you unloving. It's like roses and thorns, the two can coexist,
and I do love my family. The highs aren't invalidated
by the lows and vice versa. Everyone's story will look
different just because some problems weren't intentional, or one story
(32:46):
isn't as bad as the next person's shouldn't invalidate the
real problems or minimize the story. And the degree to
which we felt this book needed to be written was
the degree to which we felt like voices were still
being silenced and real harm was continuing to be done
by not telling it. Yeah, it's it's been a journey,
but well, and I.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Think it's important too, like that there's a lot of
things crossroads at different points that kind of affected our
direction in life, and we're already trying to establish our
own family identity the day we got married and realized
that we weren't able to like we're just being tied
down to the next five years. But then, especially whenever
(33:28):
the injustice was with the Jillner sisters information being released,
like I wanted to punch someone and you know, down
Washington County or the city of Springdale. But realized it's
probably not very Christian, that would not be christ like
of me. But I can we can invest in getting
(33:49):
legal education and trying to make sure that that doesn't
happen to other people, or at least we can affect
some positive change to make sure that kids don't, you know,
remain silent, let whenever they're trying to expose their abuser,
because they don't know, looking at Jill, if this is
a safe place, because well what if I'm one day exposed,
you know, and everyone's gonna know these horble details about me.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
So Derek's able to advocate now every day for people
in the justice system and his job that he has
advocating for people and being a voice for the voiceless.
So he's been my advocate and now he's an advocate
for so many other people, and I'm so proud of him. So, yeah,
we're just trying to be a positive light through some
(34:34):
tough stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yeah, and also for people to realize that, you know,
whenever you face difficulty, a lot of people don't have
a safe place to land and they end up going
off the deep end and leaving their faith, and like,
you know, it's so hard to just maintain the straight
and arrow and not go off to the right, not
to the left, but down the straight and narrow. And
we really feel like that's kind of one of the
themes of our journey, that's just trying to maintain that,
(34:57):
Like we.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Want them to see our voice coming through through this,
that you can be strong, you can hold to your faith,
but relying on Christ to get you through these hard
times because we can't do it alone, and as Christians,
like we cannot do it in our own strength.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
True freedom is found in Christ's outside, from the law,
seeking the Lord, seeking who He's called us to be.
The Church is a diverse group. I think a lot
of times in the church we think it's very cookie cutter,
like if you don't pass the plate at ten o'clock
at the beginning versus the end of the service, that
you're doing something wrong. Is this wrong because it's just
different to me, or is it actually wrong. You go
to some cultures and it's like, well, they're beating their wives. No,
(35:35):
that's not just part of their culture. That's wrong in
whatever culture it is.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
But if you go and.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
You're like, well, this music is weird and I don't
agree with it. It's like it doesn't matter whether you
agree with it, Like, it's just different to you, and
you've got to recognize that there's nothing wrong about it.
And this is the beauty of the church. It's that,
you know. I think we've got to reclaim the term diversity,
and diversity is a wonderful thing. The beauty of the
(36:00):
church is we all have giftings, we all different cultures,
and one day in heaven it's you know, there's.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
What No, I'm just I like, you're going with this?
Oh sorry, sorry, I'm just like it just.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Sorry, it just gets to you whenever, like people think
I don't like my personality again, going to that is
like people are just so black and white. They think,
you know, here's what they're right. Like, I don't remember
what I was in sane now. Anyway, sometimes I'm just
(36:34):
talking in the shower and then I'll be talking and
I'll realize that Jule the bathroom like five minutes ago,
I'm talking to myself. But anyway, I don't walk away
from no, no, no, I know it's not intentional. I might
have I might have started after she left and as clarified,
that's probably it. But anyway, we just want to be
(36:55):
able to point people toward the Bible and what who
Jesus is, and I know that.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
He can be trusted even when people around you can't
be trusted.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And you've been listening to Jill Duggar and her husband
Derek share their story being a part of TLC's huge
hit TV show that captivated the nation, Nineteen Kids and Counting.
They share their story on the New York Times bestseller
Counting the Cost. My goodness, you're hearing about the cost.
(37:26):
One thing it didn't do was challenge their faith. In
the end, it brought them closer to their faith. It
had them discover their faith walk in some ways or
rediscovered and their own their own and so often in life,
no matter what our walk is, there are challenges. Boy,
when you add that fame element, when you add the
(37:47):
reality TV element, it changes everything. And my goodness, what
Jill and Derek had to go through, what they had
to do, and the levity they have is they exhibit
towards the end of that their joy not stall, the
possibility for redeeming, the relationships with their family members still
there and their faith walk intact. The story of Jill
(38:09):
Dugger and her husband Derek, as told here on our
American Stories
This is Lee Habib, and this is Our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American people.
Search for the Our American Stories podcast go to the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jill Duger and her husband Derek are here to share
(00:30):
their story, the unedited truth behind TLC's hit television show
that captivated the nation, Nineteen Kids and Counting. Their story
has become a New York Times instant bestseller with a
memoir called Counting the Cost. Let's take a listen.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hey, So I am Jill Dillard of Derek Dillard Jill
and Derek Dillard. Here, I used to be Jill Ducker
and and I was part of a family with nineteen
kids in Counting. You may know about us from the
reality show TLC had for a long time running seventeen
(01:10):
Kids Accounting, eighteen Kids Accounting, and then nineteen Kids Accounting
and then counting on.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So they probably should have renamed it nineteen Kids Accounting
down once it started eighteen because I think there's only
three kids under eighteen now, so that.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Thinks about you.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
It could have been like counting eighteen kids in Counting.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Now seventeen kids though what was happening?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, it could be sound very violent.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Anyway, I grew up in a family with lots of kids,
and so we recently wrote a book Counting the Cost
that talks about our journey. So I really felt like
growing up on reality TV, my story was always going
to be continued to be told really for me, and
(01:51):
so in writing a book, I felt like, if the
story's already going to be told, I would rather be
the one telling it. So yeah, our story, though goes
back to I grew up. I'm the second daughter in
the Dougger family, fourth born, and so growing up we
(02:13):
were different than a lot of families in that we
of course we're adding a new kid like every year
to our family, But then we were also part of
a group called IBLP and.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
That you can't like job rush past the fact that
there's a kid being born every single year.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So whenever or two there were two sets of twins
or two.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, but blows me away, Like early in our relationship
and even still now we refer to different events and
I'll refer to like what grade I was in, Joe
will say who is the baby when that happened? So
that's more the marker of time.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It is, well because because I was also homeschooled, so
I don't have I don't Derek was public school all
the way through. Yeah, I didn't have like the classroom
that I could identify with with a new teacher every year.
So literally it was like who is the baby? Okay? Yeah,
and so that's how I remember the year of something
happening generally, But anyway, grew up in the Duggar family.
(03:13):
We were part of this group that kind of really
formed my family's views on a lot of things. So
whether it was homeschooling or just religious aspects. We were
part of a group called IBLP, which stands for Institute
and Basic Life Principles, led by Bill Gothard, and he
(03:34):
had all these conferences where he taught biblical principles that
he kind of formed his own opinion about to the masses.
When did it start the sixties?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Early sixties, I one don't callin that. It was like
nineteen sixty one.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So my parents were very influenced by that. And then
he also started Bill Gofford started this group called ati
AD its Training Institute for Homeschooling for home school families
and so it.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Came later that was like in the early to mid eighties,
I believe, so.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
My parents joined that group, and as a kid, I
remember it being a happy memory. We would go to
these conferences, these ATI conferences and be taught everything from
what the Bible says on how many kids you should
have to not drinking alcohol, to how many or where
you could should send your kids and where you should
(04:27):
not send your kids to school, and everything on like
the way you should dress, to the music you should
listen to. So that's kind of my thought process as
a kid was this is what the Bible says, this
is what IBLP says, or ATI, this is the way
I should be living. So growing up we had a
lot of rules and standards that we were supposed to
(04:49):
keep to. Of course a lot of love as well
in my family. And then in the late nineties early
two thousands, my dad ran for political office, which then
led to some notoriety in our local area, and of
course my parents still having a bunch of kids, that
caught the eye of some TV producers who then asked
(05:10):
my parents about producing a one time documentary about my family,
and that ended up being the hit show. I guess
it was like the number one show on Discovery Health
at the time. It was kind of at the beginning
of the reality series era of things where somehow like
(05:32):
Discovery and TLC merged around them and everything. So they
asked if my parents would consider doing a few more
documentaries and then ended up launching into a reality show
about my family. So we but sorry not to.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Not to cut you off, but I think like a
good way to kind of organize kind of the fascination
was starting a reality show, at least from what I
can see coming in because Joe kind of grew up
on reality TV. But I think what was so fascinating
and what made it doubly fascinating for people on the outside,
not all they was the interest in the logistics that
(06:12):
took to raise a family of twenty one two parents
and nineteen children. But how unique the lifestyle was because
of this undergirding organization woven throughout daily life and the
institute and basic life principles.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Whether all the girls wore dresses.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Or herbie or doing homeschooling, it.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Is obvious it was a parent yeah schooled.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Some aspects of it are wonderful and some not so much.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah and You've been listening to Jill Dugger and her
husband Derek, and they're sharing their story of growing up
in this large family that lent itself to being filmed
by TLC, thus creating the massive hit show Nineteen Kids
(07:00):
and Counting. And so many of us have been curious, well,
what happened to them, How are they doing? How did
that affect their lives? We're learning right now a little
bit more about their lives. When we come back, we're
going to learn a lot more with Jill and Derek
Dillard telling the story of the story behind nineteen Kids
(07:21):
in County and the family behind the hit TV show.
Here on Our American Stories, Lee Habib here the host
of our American Stories. Every day on this show, we're
bringing inspiring stories from across this great country, stories from
our big cities and small towns. But we truly can't
(07:44):
do the show without you. Our stories are free to
listen to, but they're not free to make. If you
love what you hear, go to Ouramerican Stories dot com
and click the donate button. Give a little, give a lot.
Go to Ouramerican Stories dot com and give and we
(08:09):
continue with our American Stories and the story of Jill
Dugger and her husband Derek, and they were a part
of TLC's huge hit TV show that captivated this country,
nineteen kids in counting. Let's pick up with their story,
and let's pick up where we last left off.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Growing up, Like I really did have pretty much like
a happy childhood, I would say. And then we started
being part of this reality TV show. And I remember
like the first time the camera crew came to our
house and they like stuck a camera in my face
and I'm grating cheese and they're like just be normal,
and I'm like okay. And but fast forward, we had
(08:53):
been on the reality TV show for a long time
and then in walks my Prince Charmy, right, yeah, right
there you are, Derek. It was actually we were kind
of like set up by my dad. My dad introduced us,
so he and Derek didn't really you guys didn't really
(09:14):
even know each other. Though y'all were like prayer partners
because Derek was from our area, but we hadn't really met.
Some friends knew of our family because of the TV
show we were on, and they were Christmas caroling one
time and they're like, hey, we should go to the
Douggar's house and Christmas Carroll because we want to meet them,
and he was, what were you like visiting from college
(09:36):
or something year. He's nice, sure, yeah, so he was
just tagging along in this group of people. I vaguely
remember that. But like we didn't actually meet the Christmas
Carol at my family's house, which was not uncommon. I
mean it sounds weird, but like for complete strangers to
show up at our door was not uncommon and just
(09:56):
like want to say, hey, take a picture. Whatever. We
eventually got like a gate outside of our home, so
just to protect the family, like the kids running around
in the front yard probably got a.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Versus zoo like like like zoo animals. I feel like
you could slow.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Down seriously though sometimes I mean, it's not super weird,
but like I guess it is weird whenever.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Come a tap up on the window, just kind of
looking aside.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
There was a guy one time who like jumped the
fence and came up and thankfully, like I think, I
don't know what he would like anyways, Yeah weird, but okay,
that's a side note. So Derek, he you had he
had stopped by our house one time just with that group,
but like didn't really know U, but it was ripe.
(10:41):
That happened right before he was supposed to go to
Nepal to do mission work for two years.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So yeah, A couple of years after I finished my
accounting degree, I went.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
To Oklahoma State University.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Shoutout go Pokes. Went to Oklahoma State University. A couple
of years after college, went to Nepal for a two
year mission term. We were tasked during our training in
Virginia to gather so many signatures of people who committed
to pray for us while we were on the mission
field for two years. And I went to a teeny tiny,
(11:14):
like Paris small church. I was obviously going to need
prayer support from outside of our own church, so I
reached out to Jim Bob and asked if he would
be one of the people to pray for me while
I was serving on the mission field in Nepal, and
he said sure, So I'd given him a prayer card
like I had everyone who had committed to pray for us,
(11:35):
and my blog was on the bottom of it, called
it Himalayan Cowboy at blogspot dot com because I was
and was actually was.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I was going to say Okay, he was actually the
mascot the mask.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I was the cowboy pistol.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Heat and I will say I will add he was
the first Legacy peete, so his dad was also the
mascot at Oklahoma State University. Ye, so it's like big anyway.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Anyway, that was my blog, so it was on the card.
And Jill actually just told me today that like her
dad was like reading my blog posts whenever he was
not talking to me on the phone, so I guess
in between he would keep up that way.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
He knew a lot about you enough to know that
he wanted to introduce you to me and me to you.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Yes, so he did that after about eighteen minds of
us kind of communicating monthly or so on updates on
the mission field. He said, well, my daughter Jill shares
a lot of common life goals as you, and I
think y'all would really hit it off. Jill and I
talked for the first time for like five and a
half hours on Skype. We say it was loving first Skype.
(12:38):
We had two five and a half hour long conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And Jill, because I told him this is what I
told him, I said, I said, I said it, I said,
it's kind of like throwing up. This was aft, I said,
because I hate confrontation. I hate like where I got
to ask all these questions and grill him on everything.
(13:02):
So I said, I just want to get over with
and throw It's kind of like throwing up because you
feel much better afterwards. That's what I told you. You know,
we don't want to waste.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Our time and realize five years later that she's actually Buddhist.
And I don't really want to marry someone.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
But whatever it is, we want to do a line
on on our goals, in line in our philosophies and
religious views, goals whatever. So we wanted to find that
out from the get go. So we had long conversations
and basically I was like, Okay, cool, I want to
get to know this guy better. So then I convinced
my dad to fly to Nepal with me, but we
(13:41):
had to take the entire film crew with us. Anyway,
we met over there in Nepal and we fell in love. Well,
then fast forward, Derek comes back from Nepal. He starts
working as a tax accountant for Walmart in our area
of corporate. Then we get engaged pretty quick, get married,
(14:02):
find out we're expecting our first.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Child well, and we wanted to serve on the mission field.
That was kind of like the foundation for our relationships.
So even before we got engaged, like I enrolled in seminary,
my mom got cancer that same it was a semester
starting a new job.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Like it was.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
It was a lot we got engaged, like all in
this out at the same time.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, just a lot happened in that first year of
our marriage. We also had a lot of traumatic things
happened in our life around that time where it was
announced that the show ended up actually getting canceled in twenty.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Fifteen after our oldest was born.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, after it was reported I say loosely by tab
Lloyd's who. There was a point in twenty fifteen where,
working together with the city of Springdale and the police
chief and Washington County and in Touch magazine together they
(15:00):
illegally released juvenile sexual abuse records, and so my sisters
and I were thrust into a very painful spotlight that
we never wanted to be in. And not to protect
my brother at all, who had perpetrated these horrendous acts,
but just as victims in the system here, we felt
(15:25):
like we were exploited and those records should have never
been released. So it was a very very painful time
for my sisters and I, and the show got canceled
and through a series of circumstances which later we disagree
with how it was all handled, but we were forced
to kind of help get the show back up and going.
(15:48):
So then Derek and I are on the mission field
and we just through all of this. The show comes
alive again, and it's very much portrayed to us like
a family ministry, and it no doubt it was like
impacting people's lives positively. We're not saying it didn't ever,
but for us that process was very grueling. And then
(16:10):
you add to the mix a TV show, and basically
it came down to the point where we were on
the mission field trying to make decisions that were best
for our family, and then we find out that there's
this contract that I was tricked into signing by my
own father, and regardless of whatever intentions he may have had,
it was very very hard for me going from this
(16:31):
like trusting relationship to try and figure out how do
I sort this out? How to somebody that I love
and trust seemingly take advantage of me in.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
This situation, and you're listening to Jill Dugger and her
husband Derek share their story, and my goodness, we all
anticipated it will be complicated. The idea of bringing TV
cameras into a family, well, that's going to create problems
of its own, but it's also going to reveal things
to people that they see in their own family. And
(17:00):
there's a reason why that show was a hit. And
it wasn't so much the prurient type of show like
so many of the reality TV shows. It was showing
a family, a big family, a big Christian family, trying
to navigate life. And we hear also about this just
tumultuous year, a year in which there's an engagement, a
(17:20):
year where things get released in this family to the public,
but for the TV show may never have been released.
And then the discovery that her own father may have
manipulated her into signing a contract that she really didn't
want to sign or didn't know much about. When we
continue more of the story of Jill Dugger and her
(17:42):
husband Derek here on our American stories, and we continue
(18:08):
with our American stories and the story of Jill Dugger
and her husband Derek who share their experience in the
TLC hit TV show Nineteen Kids in counting their New
York Times instant bestseller, Counting the Cost chronicles some of
those stories. Let's pick up where we last left off.
(18:30):
Here's Jill and Derek Dillard.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It came to a point where we had to break
away from filming, so we left the show. We decided
to leave the show. We felt like that that was
what we need us to do for our family, and
so we stepped away from the reality TV show, which
continued to carry on for a few more years, and
started to make a life for ourselves and kind of
think for ourselves and just trying to figure out who
(18:56):
we were in the world and who Christ wanted us
to be, and what we were called, how we were
called to live our lives as a family, and what
was okay, what was not okay and.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Sorting through that and to kind of set up a
little bit going back to what I was saying earlier,
I think the IBLP created its own set of issues
and having a culture of taking the Bible, which is true,
and using it out of context to control and manipulate
for a specific agenda. And I feel like the show
this reality show just kind of poured gasoline on the
(19:27):
fire and allowed those issues to just be amplified that
much more. And when we got married in a Christian wedding,
you leave in cleve, you become your own family. And
we realized, like, in hindsight, was that just a ploy
because it seemed like this umbrella of authority meaning and
I keep referring to the umbrella of authority.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
This was a specific teaching that they.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Had to teaching in the IBLP where the father is
over everyone in the family, but in the IBLP they
took it even further. And even for your kids who
were married, you were still supposed to be under this
umbrella of authority. And that to me was completely contradictory
to scripture which says you leave in Cleveland become your
own family.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Like if you moved outside the umbrella of authority and
you started making decisions that your parents did not approve
of or that you did not get their blessing on,
even as an adult, then you were opening yourself up
to potential harm, like you might get in a car accident,
and then that was the reason why, Like if you
got in this car accident, it might have been this
(20:29):
retribution theology type thing with this authority principle where you
caused it by getting out from under their authority type thing.
So that's like the extreme example. Other things it might
just be like, oh, you're facing problems in your life
because of not getting your parents blessing or whatever.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
So many of these things were used for control. And
then Jimbob was committing financial fraud and it very strongly
impacted our lives and we had to basically draw some
hard boundaries and say this is not okay. You know
this is wrong, and we we need to like take
some action to protect our own family. And the show
(21:07):
at this point was called Jill Andesic Counting On. And
we had made a commitment on the mission field to
remain for a number of months, and we had already
shared that this was our commitment whenever.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Nobody seemed to have a problem, nobody seemed.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
To work with and it wasn't even something that like
we took the initiative to do. Our supervisor at the
time said, I need you to commit to being here
for this long and really established rapport with the people
who live here, and if they see you going back
and forth to the States, those you was having one
foot in, one foot out, and not being very serious
(21:43):
about your care for their lives spiritually, physically, otherwise. And
so we said, well, sure, yes, we can make that commitment.
We'll remain here and not go back to the States.
Jim Bob knew that we had committed to remain on
the mission field, and it was almost like, not to
be super sarcastic, but the way it just came across
was like, oh, well, that's cute, Like that's great at
(22:05):
the Jeweler making a commitment, but this is the true ministry.
Reality TV is what is truly the ministry.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
He really did view it, ay the ministry.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, and like what you all are doing in all
Salvador's cube, but it's almost like just to provide content for
the greater ministry.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
As like, I think he appreciated it.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
I'm not saying he didn't appreciate it, but he almost
saw it as a subset of the true ministry because
it wasn't as great numbers based as the filming ministry,
which again personally I would disagree, which is because the
gospel itself was not presented, it was not tagged as
like a Christian show. It was a show about Christians.
(22:42):
But that's a side note. But they asked us to
come back to Houston to this filming shoot. It was
in Yeah, they asked.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Us to come back for this promotional shoot the network. Yeah,
the network wanted us to film this promotional shoot, which
happened once or twice a year generally, And so we
were asked to come back to the States for this
from Central America where we were serving as missionaries, and
we said no. It just got very very heated, to
the point where they present us with this contract and
(23:11):
they say, well, actually, it's almost like no, I'm more
mister nice guy. Here you go. Here's this contract. You
actually are obligated to come back. You have to. And
we were shocked. We look at this and we're like,
what where did this come from. We end up finding
out that this is the piece of paper that my
dad had set before me the day before we got married,
with no understanding of what it was, no papers to
(23:34):
even read about what this was that I was signing,
and I was made to believe, when I had asked
about it at the time, that this was just about
how I was going to get.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Paid and which was which was a lie. In one
aspect of the financial fraud. It's even more clear now
as an attorney and more specifically as a prosecutor, it
was very much financial fraud. Jill was told that this
was about how you're going to get paid, but that
was materially wrong. It wasn't even just a small mistake
materially different than what it actually was in reality. If
(24:04):
you were to be explicit about what the answer should
have been, it should have been, this is about how
you're not going to get paid, and your payment will
come when we die as part of your inheritance, and
you're also obligated. And this was completely and this was
completely left out of the of what this single page
with one line on it that she was asked to
sign when I wasn't even aware of it. I wasn't
(24:27):
even in the room, which is a different story, but
that you're also committing all these like basically your whole
life for the next five years, the first five years
of our marriage, without ever telling Jill or having her
ask me if this is something that we want to
start our lives on and tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So we didn't know what.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
The other aspect of the financial fraud was. The more
we dug into it. As we uncovered things, it was oh,
we're sorry, like we should have x Y.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
We just wanted transparency exactly, We very much want to transparency.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
And the hope would have been, okay, now that we
realize the error of our way is like you should
also know that this that this is the situation too.
But it was almost like Jill's dad Jim Bob Doug
his heels in and then just like, oh, well you
figure that out. But I'm sorry, but I'm not going
to reveal anything else that I've got you yet locked
(25:21):
down into and then we get to tell you discover
later on. And then we uncovered some more stuff that
was basically him on his taxes and the taxes of
the other children reporting income as for other people to
lessen his tax liability. He was going to be one
hundred percent the one be paid, and I will choose
(25:43):
how I want to help you all, like if I
want to basically, if you're my good graces, I'll help you,
and that'll be my way of like quote unquote paying you,
but that's not going to be reported as payment. I'm
showing on paper that I'm paying all of you all,
but I'm controlling one hundred percent of the finances. If
you want to get paid, then I'm disinheriting you because
(26:03):
I count that as your inheritance. So if you want,
if you're gonna threaten me with a lawsuit, then you
can just count on not You've already gotten your inheritance,
so you can just be counted out because that was
supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Inheritized, should have been earned income. Yeah, but so in
the end, we had some pretty understandably some pretty crazy conversations.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
And you've been listening to Jill Duggart and her husband
Derek share their story, the story behind the story of
TLC's hit television show that captivated a nation nineteen kids
in counting, and so much had been written about it
at the time, documentaries The Whole nine Yards, but hearing
from Jill and her husband directly about their family, what
(26:48):
happened to them after the reality show, as they both said,
how to create a life for themselves and think for
themselves outside of that ecosystem one created by a dad
and a reality television show and fame, the overlay of
fame having such a dramatic impact on anybody who encounters
(27:12):
and anyone will tell you the stories of what fame
can do to almost anybody. When we come back, more
of this story, the story of Jill Dugger and her
husband Derek here on our American Stories and we continue
(27:37):
with our American Stories and Jill Dugger and her husband
Derek sharing their story of life during and after TLC's
hit television show nineteen Kids in Counting. Their memoir Counting
and the Cost is available on Amazon and the usual suspects.
(27:58):
Let's pick up when we last left off.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
For us, finding a Christian license therapist was very important,
aligned with where we wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Well, not even aligned with where we wanted to be,
aligned with scripture, because I think it's important to note
that you don't want to look for yes people, people
who are just going to affirm whatever you're seeking out,
because I think that's dangerous too.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yes, but there's wisdom and counts, but.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Finding people who are outside of the situation, they don't
stand anything to gain or lose, but who recognize the
Bible as the authority that it is, and who can
you know, challenge you, who can affirm you, who can
make you realize sometimes that you're not crazy and help
you realize, give you tools. Basically to work through a
lot of problems and maintain a strong faith. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So as we sorted through some of that and over time,
then we thought about writing a book. And it was
something that I was kind of scared to do because
I still love my family and it and it intertwines
a lot with my family and growing up in reality
TV and all of those dynamics. So right now, I
(29:03):
feel like it's kind of the aftermath of the book
right now where we just have to give some space,
allow other people some space, because I understand like there's
a lot of difficult content in the book, and my
relationship with my parents now is very complicated. I don't
just hang out like we used to my parents. I'm
(29:24):
not going to speak for them, but I don't think
they were super happy about the book. I mean, we
did get a text message after the announcement of the book,
but before it came out, just not yeah expressing they
were expressing. My dad specifically was like expressing his opinion
(29:44):
on it, and he was telling my other siblings like,
if you say anything negative, you're going to be cut
out of the inheritance, and like saying like we owe
our lives to bilk authors. So I think there's still
negativity and harming. The image is is sinful because it's
not honoring to your family of origin or something. But
(30:06):
I think what is honoring is telling the truth and
not doing it out of the wrong spirit, not doing
it with a motive to just hurt or expose, but
really just telling my story, telling our story, the journey
that we've been on, with the intention of helping other
(30:28):
people who have probably faced the same things that we have,
whether it's because of religious upbringing, legalism, family dynamics. Actually,
I would like to read this first part of the books.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It is very and again in this culture like it's
the isolation that a lot of times is used to
perpetuate abuse and this idea that people are made to
feel like they're on an island and don't talk to
others they wouldn't understand. We want to be able to
pass out along for other people by sharing our story too.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
So in the prologue, well, I guess it's not the prologue, actually,
it's just the intro. There's the portion that I would
like to read. So it says, to those who have
been harmed in the name of religion, to those who
have suffered behind closed doors and have yet to find
their voice. To those who have begun to find their
voice but may still be living in a season of isolation.
(31:20):
To those who, like Esther and the Old Testament Bible story,
have courageously answered the call for such a time as this,
and despite the backlash, have now found their voice. From
victims and survivors to strangers, family, and friends, this book
is dedicated to you. May you all know that you
are not alone, that your story, your voice, and your
(31:41):
mental health matter. The Lord is a stronghold for the oppressed,
a stronghold in times of trouble Psalm nine to nine.
So that's why we wrote the book. Is for these
people mentioned here and then in the back of the book,
in the author's note I want to read, another portion
says what this book is not. This book is not
(32:02):
a letter to my family as part of the reconciliation process.
I also didn't write this book to shame my family
or just to try and get their attention. We will
continue to work through matters with family independent of this book,
with the desired ultimate goal of healthy relationships. Lord Willing,
We understand that no family is perfect and that you
can recognize the beauty in your story while still acknowledging
(32:25):
the difficult parts and even setting boundaries. It shouldn't make
you unloving. It's like roses and thorns, the two can coexist,
and I do love my family. The highs aren't invalidated
by the lows and vice versa. Everyone's story will look
different just because some problems weren't intentional, or one story
(32:46):
isn't as bad as the next person's shouldn't invalidate the
real problems or minimize the story. And the degree to
which we felt this book needed to be written was
the degree to which we felt like voices were still
being silenced and real harm was continuing to be done
by not telling it. Yeah, it's it's been a journey,
but well, and I.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Think it's important too, like that there's a lot of
things crossroads at different points that kind of affected our
direction in life, and we're already trying to establish our
own family identity the day we got married and realized
that we weren't able to like we're just being tied
down to the next five years. But then, especially whenever
(33:28):
the injustice was with the Jillner sisters information being released,
like I wanted to punch someone and you know, down
Washington County or the city of Springdale. But realized it's
probably not very Christian, that would not be christ like
of me. But I can we can invest in getting
(33:49):
legal education and trying to make sure that that doesn't
happen to other people, or at least we can affect
some positive change to make sure that kids don't, you know,
remain silent, let whenever they're trying to expose their abuser,
because they don't know, looking at Jill, if this is
a safe place, because well what if I'm one day exposed,
you know, and everyone's gonna know these horble details about me.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
So Derek's able to advocate now every day for people
in the justice system and his job that he has
advocating for people and being a voice for the voiceless.
So he's been my advocate and now he's an advocate
for so many other people, and I'm so proud of him. So, yeah,
we're just trying to be a positive light through some
(34:34):
tough stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yeah, and also for people to realize that, you know,
whenever you face difficulty, a lot of people don't have
a safe place to land and they end up going
off the deep end and leaving their faith, and like,
you know, it's so hard to just maintain the straight
and arrow and not go off to the right, not
to the left, but down the straight and narrow. And
we really feel like that's kind of one of the
themes of our journey, that's just trying to maintain that,
(34:57):
Like we.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Want them to see our voice coming through through this,
that you can be strong, you can hold to your faith,
but relying on Christ to get you through these hard
times because we can't do it alone, and as Christians,
like we cannot do it in our own strength.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
True freedom is found in Christ's outside, from the law,
seeking the Lord, seeking who He's called us to be.
The Church is a diverse group. I think a lot
of times in the church we think it's very cookie cutter,
like if you don't pass the plate at ten o'clock
at the beginning versus the end of the service, that
you're doing something wrong. Is this wrong because it's just
different to me, or is it actually wrong. You go
to some cultures and it's like, well, they're beating their wives. No,
(35:35):
that's not just part of their culture. That's wrong in
whatever culture it is.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
But if you go and.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
You're like, well, this music is weird and I don't
agree with it. It's like it doesn't matter whether you
agree with it, Like, it's just different to you, and
you've got to recognize that there's nothing wrong about it.
And this is the beauty of the church. It's that,
you know. I think we've got to reclaim the term diversity,
and diversity is a wonderful thing. The beauty of the
(36:00):
church is we all have giftings, we all different cultures,
and one day in heaven it's you know, there's.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
What No, I'm just I like, you're going with this?
Oh sorry, sorry, I'm just like it just.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Sorry, it just gets to you whenever, like people think
I don't like my personality again, going to that is
like people are just so black and white. They think,
you know, here's what they're right. Like, I don't remember
what I was in sane now. Anyway, sometimes I'm just
(36:34):
talking in the shower and then I'll be talking and
I'll realize that Jule the bathroom like five minutes ago,
I'm talking to myself. But anyway, I don't walk away
from no, no, no, I know it's not intentional. I might
have I might have started after she left and as clarified,
that's probably it. But anyway, we just want to be
(36:55):
able to point people toward the Bible and what who
Jesus is, and I know that.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
He can be trusted even when people around you can't
be trusted.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And you've been listening to Jill Duggar and her husband
Derek share their story being a part of TLC's huge
hit TV show that captivated the nation, Nineteen Kids and Counting.
They share their story on the New York Times bestseller
Counting the Cost. My goodness, you're hearing about the cost.
(37:26):
One thing it didn't do was challenge their faith. In
the end, it brought them closer to their faith. It
had them discover their faith walk in some ways or
rediscovered and their own their own and so often in life,
no matter what our walk is, there are challenges. Boy,
when you add that fame element, when you add the
(37:47):
reality TV element, it changes everything. And my goodness, what
Jill and Derek had to go through, what they had
to do, and the levity they have is they exhibit
towards the end of that their joy not stall, the
possibility for redeeming, the relationships with their family members still
there and their faith walk intact. The story of Jill
(38:09):
Dugger and her husband Derek, as told here on our
American Stories
Host
Lee Habeeb
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