August 13, 2025 • 38 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, John Defoore went to war at nineteen. He returned, raised a family, and lived through more change than most people see in two lifetimes. When he sat down with us at 103, he looked back on what had stayed with him. Some memories had softened with age, while others hadn’t moved at all. When he passed away in 2024 at 105, he left behind a story about time, memory, and what it means to live with history.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American people.
To search for the All American Stories podcast, go to
the iHeartRadio app, to Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. We recently had the pleasure of bringing World
War II veteran John to four, one hundred and three
(00:33):
years old into our studio with his entire family and
listen to his incredible life story.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
This next story is all him sharing.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
A bit about his early life and the unlikely events
that led him to serving in the Army.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Here's John.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Sign in Mississippi for who Am. I grew up had
two hundred fifted people and its cotton country. I started
to Greenwood High School and I was taking Latin and
I asked a question and the teacher and this may
have been my imagination because I didn't have a very
(01:15):
strong self image, but the teacher kind of made fun
of my question, and so I just walked out of
the class.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
I think I was a.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Little arrogant, maybe more than a little, but anyway, I
walked out.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
And I walked out.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Of the building and turned and go down the side
of the building. And when I was walking down by
the classroom. I noticed a brick in the flower red
so I just picked it up and threw it through
the window. And then the school decided that I wasn't
a very good fit. So I didn't even know what
(01:57):
expelled meant, but I learned. So I had to go
home and tell my school teacher mother that they no
longer wanted me in Greenwood High School. And so she said, well,
thank god there was no communication between schools. You can
(02:18):
go to it Abina High School. It was about fifteen
miles in another direction. They ran a school bus there too. Well,
my second day, I got in a fight with the
school bus driver and they were very now reminded, and
(02:40):
they decided that maybe I did not need to be
a student there either. My mother, she was a good woman,
but my mother had problems. And I left home and
I walked up the railroad and slept under Bridge. I
(03:01):
got a job on a construction crew, and I got
a room and a boarding home, and I worked there
all summer and September came and the foreman said, well, John,
I guess you'll be leaving now because school started. And
(03:23):
I said, no, I'm not going back to school. Anymore,
I've quit and he looked at me and said why.
I said, I don't like school and he said, you
damn fool, and he said, you fired. Get off of
this job. And so I had heard about more Head.
(03:46):
There was a agricultural high school in junior college there.
So I hitchedagged more Head and I went in and
I found the president's office and I told him I
didn't have any money, but I wanted to go to school.
There was boarding school also, and so he said, well,
(04:09):
will you work? And I said of course, and he
said okay. So I had a roommate named Robert, and
Robert and I got to be good friends. Every weekend
we would slip off campus and get drunk, and Robert
and I decided we didn't need any more education. So
(04:33):
we went to work on a construction job. We would
work all week and go to the bars or whereover.
And September the second or third, we went to a
little bar and got drunk, and I came home about
(04:55):
two o'clock and the next morning, the lady in the
board the house came in and woke me up and said,
Robert killed himself last night. And I could not believe
it because he and I played football and run track
(05:16):
together for years, and he never mentioned suicide.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
And I was a pall bearer.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
And these they put the casket in a pine box
and everybody left, and there were two men throwing dirt
in on top of this pine box. And I sat
there and I watched those clouds bouncing off the top
(05:50):
of that pine box. And you know, don't believe this,
but I don't expect you to, but I heard it and.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Have never forgotten.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
John. Before you keep living the way you're living, and
a few months some clouds just fleck. This will be
bouncing off your casket, and the world will never know
or care that you have lived. And I was no
(06:24):
mistaken now it was God or somebody looking after me.
I went to my boarding house and I got some
clothes and I went straight out on the highway and
hitchhock to Jackson, Mississippi. I had heard that Mississippi College
(06:46):
was a Christian college and that everybody there was a Christian.
It was a perfect place.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
In my mind.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I was scared to death that I was gonna kill
myself light Robert. And after I heard that Voys, I
knew it was time for me to change.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And you're listening to John DeFore tell his story, and
my goodness, what a story it is. Growing up in
a town with two hundred and fifty people getting thrown
out of school not once, but twice, and so he
decides to hitchhike to a Christian college, Mississippi College. When
we come back, more of the story of World War
Two veteran John Defour here on Our American Stories. This
(07:33):
is Lee Habib, host of our American Stories. Every day
on this show we tell stories of history, faith, business, love, loss,
and your stories. Send us your story small or large
to our email oas Atouramerican Stories dot com. That's oas
at Ouramerican Stories dot Com. We'd love to hear them
(07:54):
and put them on the air. Our audience loves them too.
And we returned to Our American Stories and to John
de four who's sharing his life story and ultimately how
(08:16):
we ended up in the army during World War Two.
When we last left off, he just decided to go
to Mississippi College, a Christian college in Clinton, Mississippi, not
far down the road from where we broadcast in Oxford, Mississippi,
which is in the northern part of the state. About
an hour south of Memphis. Let's pick up with John
(08:38):
where we last left off.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I wasn't a Christian, of course when I went there,
but I studied like crazy, and after about two years
the professor offered me a scholarship for the next semester.
And I had a lady in one of my classes,
and she was a excellent student, and she kept talking
(09:06):
to me about becoming a Christian, and I got really irritated,
and when the semester ended, I gave her a D
on the course, and she was a straight A student.
And the professor, who had sought of become a friend,
said why did you do that? And I said because
(09:29):
I don't like her, and he said, well, you can't
give her bedgrade because and so I changed it, of course,
But anyway, she was very kind. She didn't tell the
professor that I'd given her D. He founded himself. She
didn't report me. And she talked to me about God.
(09:54):
The God that I had learned about was my mother's God,
and that would the antithesis of everything that I would
described to any form of divinity. And so after she
kept talking to me about Jesus Christ, I got a
whole new message from this woman, and so.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I became a Christian.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I was talking one day to this guy on campus
and he said, John, don't you pay a musical instrument?
And I said, yeah, ply three or four. And he said, well,
the man here pays a dollar a rehearsal.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Why don't you join?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
And I thought, boy, four dollars a month. And so
I didn't ask any questions. I just signed up. But
what I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
What I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Was it was a.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
National Guard man and that's why I was made. And
so I did find a man. And about six months
after I joined, I came one day and the van
director said, gentlemen, I have an announcement. We are being
(11:13):
inducted into the Federal service. And I didn't know what
induct it meant. I found out but after the van rehearsal,
I went up and I said, mister macaw, I'm very sorry,
but I can't go. He said, We're going to Camp Landing,
(11:33):
Florida for years training and then you'll come back here.
I said, I'm very sorry, but I can't go. I
have other plans. And he said, young man, you're in
the army. I said, well, I'm not going. He said,
if you do not show up. Do you know what
(11:54):
we called that in the army And I said no.
He said we called it desertion. He said, you know
what we'd do with desergers. I said no. He said
we shoot him. And I thought, well, it doesn't sound
very good. So I went for one year's training. Seven
(12:17):
years later, I finished a one year's training because pretty
soon Pearl Harbor came and after that, man, that was
all she wrote, you know, And I had had some
previous military training. I went into some private first place
(12:38):
and I saw I noticed that they were allowing people
with previous military training to take an examination to see
if they could qualify for commission as an officer. And
so I took the examination with two hundred and fifty people,
(12:58):
and I came out at the top of the class.
And I was one day working in the latrine with
my friend watching church one day and someone said, you
got a message in the orderly tent, And so I
went to the orderly tent and they said you wanted
(13:20):
a division headquarters. Well, division headquarters, that's like Washington d C.
I mean, like it used to be. And so I
went to division headquarters and I met one of the
finest human beings I ever met in my life. His
(13:41):
name was General Maget, General John C. Persons, and he said,
Private de four, you are now a second lieutenant, and
he saluted me. He pinned my bars on and man,
one minute, I'm Private first class, and one minute with
(14:03):
those bars, I'm a second lieutenant. And so I was
assigned to another unit, and I was in a rifle company.
And that was the beginning really of my military career.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
When I became a.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Christian at Mississippi College, and then I realized I was
in the army. I knew I could never kill a
human being. I just knew I could not kill a
human being. And I'm teaching these guys about trench warfare
(14:41):
and particularly about being at practice. But even while I
was doing all that, I knew I couldn't kill a
man if I had to, and I thought about it.
But then I go to New Guinea and I'm still
processes in the mind. And one day I was on
(15:06):
patrol and there were these long, tall grasses that grew
in the jungle called kino grass, And wherever there was
a water hole, the grass grew around it. And so
one day we were on patrol and we ran into water,
(15:30):
and I stopped and laid down on the edge. And
we had had no water all day, so I was
drinking out of this pond. It wasn't very clean, but
I took some in my hand, and I was drinking.
And I lay there just a minute, and all of
(15:52):
a sudden, I hear a noise and a Jap comes
breaking through the grass, and he eyes down there and
starts drinking water, And all of a sudden I saw
him see me. He turned his head and he saw me,
(16:13):
and then he whirled his rifle around and pointed it
at me. And I had a toma, and I shot
him six times, and and I got back to my
safe area. That night, we were all sleeping and hold
(16:34):
and I started getting my hole, and I thought, well, John,
your murderer today. You killed a human being. But that's
just kind of the way it is. When we were
in these tents. Right way we'd come off the ship,
my neighboring unit got a call that the first Battalion
(16:57):
was going on the combat mission up the coast. They'd
located in Japanese ass trip, and they were kind of
plotting our course and dropping bomb some artillery. So this
time we hadn't seen any combat. Well, man, I didn't
know how I was going to function when I was
(17:19):
being shot at. So I just signed up to go
as an observer with this outfit.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
And you've been listening to John to four share his story,
and what a story. Indeed, he gets back to Mississippi College,
joins the band. Turns out it was a National Guard band.
He finds out he has to go and train. He
goes for a one year stint, ends up staying seven
and finds himself in the Pacific Islands face to face
(17:47):
with his own death. When we come back, more of
this remarkable life story. World War Two veteran John Defour's
story continues here on our American Stories, And we're back
(18:09):
with our American stories and with John Defour.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
When we last left off, he just.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Signed up to be an observer on a combat mission
fighting the Japanese. Let's pick back up where we just
left off.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
There was another officer who was glominous and observer, and
a chaplain and a medic, all going as observers.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
And we.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Went up kind of along the beach, half in the
beach and half in the jungle. And it wasn't really
a bad trip up. But what we didn't know was, see,
we are brand new. We didn't know these Jap troops
had been there for three years and they are seasoned
(18:56):
battle troops and we are ranked for rookies. And when
they found out we were coming up the beach, they
just vacated the airstrip and moved back out on the backside,
opposite from the way we were approaching, and built up
a whole file line. And we came to this airstrip
(19:20):
and it looked like it wasn't asserted, and stupid Yankees.
We go in and everybody's just having a good time
walking around, playing, looking at things, and then all of
a sudden, all hell broke loose. They had snipers in
the trees. They had men dug in in the middle
(19:44):
of the area with tops made to the foxhold and
they were popping out of these foxholds, and all of
a sudden, every way you looked, somebody was shooting. And
there was a heavy machine gun that was about fifty
(20:05):
yards in front of me. And I hit the ground
and I was absolutely panic stricken, and my blood turned
to ice water, and I could not move. I was
lying on the ground with my arms. I stretched, but
(20:25):
I couldn't move, and I thought, I've got to do something.
I've got to move, and I was terrified. I couldn't think.
I couldn't move, but I could feel. I could feel
the bullets when that guy would make it sweep. I
(20:47):
could feel the bullet cutting the grass, and the grass
was falling.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Down my neck.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
And all of a sudden, someone said, hey, long johe
and I turned and looked, and here's a Catholic chaplain
over there. He said, you want a vanilla wafer, I
promise you, And he's digging in his fatigue jacket, and
(21:16):
he pulled out box with the wafer and slides mother
the grass and said, my mother sent him to me.
Best vanilla wafers you'll ever eat. Help yourself. And I thought, well,
I'll be there, and I took a couple of a
little wafers, and my ice water all turned to blood,
(21:40):
and my panic and fear vanished, and I handed in
the box back and then I kind of took charge
and got a few men together, and we got together
a little firefight and got out of that trap. But
(22:02):
of vanilla wafers saved my life. And this is a
great guy. He was killed a couple of weeks later,
trying to rescue a man who was stranded out and wounded.
The Japs had a habit. They would get a man wounded,
(22:22):
and they put machine guns covering to take care of
the people who came to pick him up, you know,
And they'd been given orders nobody could rescue, and Chaplain
O'Connor went out.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
I wasn't I wasn't there. He was with another outfit.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
But I talked to some of the medics who picked
up the body, and they said he had a box
fan of waves in his pocket when they found him.
And if you ever come to my office, look in
the bottom right and draw my desk. I got a
(23:08):
box right there right now. I've kept them since the war.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
I don't like to tell this, but the Jets were
smarter soldiers. They had one contingent that we hit one time,
called them Imperial Marines. They were all over six feet
tall and they had all been trained in jungle fighting.
(23:38):
They all carried samurai's swords and they were great swordsmen.
But one day, just by accident, I ran into a
bunch of Japs and we killed all of them but one.
And this was prior to the operation to the landing
on Luzon where I went back to, and we needed
(24:03):
all the prisoners we could get to try to get
information about the placement of troops on Lazaan. And we
were marching him back to our area and the pt
boat was supposed to come along the beach and pick
up these prisoners of war, but he got dark and
(24:24):
the peat boat couldn't come, and so we had to
keep him overnight. And my man, this was late in
the war, and nobody wanted to keep him because they
were not safe to be around prisoners or not. I
had heard this, thank God, that this Japanese officer had
(24:50):
been captured and he was being brought back to the lines,
and he spoke it's English, and he begged the capturing
officer not to kill him. He said, I have a
wife and I have children, and this war will soon
(25:11):
be over for me and for you, and you will
go home and do anything with me, but please please
don't kill me. I don't want to die. And this
officer gave in, and then he let his guard down,
and this man who had begged for his life, took
(25:32):
this guy's pistol and killed him. Well, this told guy
that I had was talking to me the same way.
He said, do anything, but just don't kill me. He said,
I'm not mad at you Americans, You're not mad at me.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
And he said, you.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Don't know me, and I don't know you, and just
whatever you do, don't kill me. Well, I listened to
the y I guess maybe. It took us an hour
to get back to area, and he was fair convincing.
And then I remembered this incident that had happened where
(26:15):
this man had done the same thing. So I turned
around and I had to look him in ah, and
I killed him. I wonder sometimes about.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
That guy, And what a story you're hearing from John before.
It's true that warriors hell, and he's describing that hell
in vivid to tell he was a part of it.
He recalled that one story when US troops were on
an airfield that he was a part of seizing, only
to find out that the Japanese had lured him into
a trap sniper's up high marksmen dug in trenches. During
(26:57):
that firefight, there was that chapel offering him a Vanella wafer,
and in the midst of combat, it eased Lieutenant Defore's
fears and to this day, John told us those vanilla
wafers are still in his office.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
They're still close by.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
When we come back more of John Defore's story, a
World War Two veteran, a fellow Mississippian here on our
American stories. And we returned to our American stories and
(27:41):
to the final portion of John Defour's story. He told
us a few tales about his time in the war
and how he'd struggled with having to kill. In this
final segment, he'll be talking about life after the war,
his family and his wife Marian Sue, who was joining
us in this interview. Well, you'll hear from them briefly
(28:03):
in the end of this segment. Let's return to John
with the rest of his story.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
This girl, I had asked her to marry me three
years earlier, before I went overseas. She'd written me a
letter every day. I didn't always get him, but I
went to Sidon, Mississippi, and I was ready to get
married the minute I hit Sideen. Of course, she kept
(28:33):
talking about receptions and flowers and things like that, but
I just wanted to go to justice the piece that
didn't work. So we got married and we drove from sidon.
I wanted to spend the night in the Peabody Hotel
because that was where my mother and father spent their
(28:55):
wedding night and a little bit embarrassing. But we went
to bed and in the middle of the night I
had a nightmare. You know, they call it PTSD. PTSD
(29:16):
is when you replay a bad scene in your mind
and it controlled your perception of reality. And all of
a sudden, in the middle of the night, I was
screaming and cussing and fighting Japs like crazy. Man. They
(29:39):
were just flooded over the walls and everything. And my
wife is wide eyed back leaning against the headboard, saying,
what's the matter with you?
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Are you crazy? If you lost your mind? What in
the world?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
And I thought she was going to leave because she
was absolutely terrified. Well, I was trying to explain what
was the matter at two o'clock in the morning on
my ready wedding night, and it was very difficult there
(30:21):
for a while. We almost got a divorce before daylight,
but there was no JP. But she finally got accustomed
to and she could talk me down. Usually there's an
existential philosopher. I think it's Hans Sayer who made the
(30:46):
statement there's no difference between the homicide and suicide. And
I want to tell you that's true, because you can't
kill another human being. You can't cut a man's throat
(31:09):
without injuring yourself. I promised myself when I was discharged
from that hospital that I would never put on a uniform,
carry a gun, or talk about the war ever. Man
(31:31):
soon now we're working in Manila. We worked for holiday inns,
and we worked mostly in the Eastern area with China,
Japan and places like that.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
And wee came. We had weekend off and we.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Were in Manila, and I said, I want to see Karrigadoor.
And so we got on the boat and we were
going to Karrigador and I'm sitting in the benches across
the seats. The boat was just packed and I'm sitting
there and I see this young man sitting next to me.
(32:12):
He looked like he was younger, and I said, why
are you going to see Kurgador? And he said, you
really want to know. I could tell he was American.
He said you really want to know? And I said yeah.
He said, well, my father was over here during the
(32:35):
war and said he never talked about the war. He
never said a word about the war, and up to
this time I had never talked to anybody about the
war ever. And he looked at me and he said,
(32:56):
he said, do you have sons. I said, yeah, I
have four sons. He said, have you talked about the
war to your boys? And I said no, never. He said,
this is a total stranger. He said, promise me, as
(33:18):
soon as you get home, you'll talk to your boys
about the war. My daddy never talked about and I've
always wondered about this big blank spot in his life.
And he said, I'm over here trying to put together
the little pieces that I found out about my dad
(33:39):
in the war, and I want you to promise me
you'll talk to your sons. And I said I promised.
I didn't mean it, but we went on to Garrigador
and looked around. Well late that afternoon when we were
coming back, I was out back watching the waves and
(34:02):
he came in found me and I didn't even know
his name. He said, you made me a promise. I said,
I'll be to him and he said, you didn't mean it.
I said, no, I didn't. He said, I want to promise.
(34:25):
He came the third time, I want to promise. And
when I got home I started talking about the war.
I found that all four of my sons had had
nightmares about the war. What I had buried on my
(34:46):
insides came out in there unconscious, thinking, my sons of
the four most beautiful men I've ever known, and they were.
They were very kind, and I could not have asked
(35:08):
them to have reacted with more compassion and understanding. And
I wish that I had started talking years earlier. But
you know, I'll laugh and say funny that I know
(35:31):
I'm half crazy because of what I've been through. I
couldn't be totally completely sane, but so far I've been
able to.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Pass all the all the tests.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
William to Concer German was a Union general during the war.
Led the troops all the way across Georgia North Carolina
to the ocean. One day talking to him, he gave
us an often quoted phrase, war is hell. Every day
(36:15):
You get up and you go honey, and you just
look for somebody to kill all day long, and you
kill him and you don't even bury him. You just
walk off after you search him. And that's crazy. It
is insanity. And I wish that the people who talk
(36:38):
about war had to either send their children or go themselves.
I hope if the man in Washington decides to protect us,
if Tynda attack for Mosa or wherever we fight, I
hope he'll send his son. I've lisked in the mirror
(37:03):
and said, my God, are.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
You that man? And I'd just say yeah, but I
wasn't proud of John.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
What everybody in this room has their freedom today.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, yep, and we are proud to say it. Well,
I'd rather have been you. We're proud of Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And a special thanks to Madison Derekcott for producing that piece.
And you heard John's family because John was breaking down,
regretting what he'd done in the war, regretting having killed
so many people, and they had to come in and
just help them and save him from his own feelings
of grief decades and decades later. What a story he told.
(37:57):
There's no difference between a homicide and his side. John said,
you can't kill another human being without injuring yourself. The
story of John before, the story of war, the story
of its aftermath, and the story of so much more.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Here on our American Stories
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American people.
To search for the All American Stories podcast, go to
the iHeartRadio app, to Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. We recently had the pleasure of bringing World
War II veteran John to four, one hundred and three
(00:33):
years old into our studio with his entire family and
listen to his incredible life story.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
This next story is all him sharing.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
A bit about his early life and the unlikely events
that led him to serving in the Army.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Here's John.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Sign in Mississippi for who Am. I grew up had
two hundred fifted people and its cotton country. I started
to Greenwood High School and I was taking Latin and
I asked a question and the teacher and this may
have been my imagination because I didn't have a very
(01:15):
strong self image, but the teacher kind of made fun
of my question, and so I just walked out of
the class.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
I think I was a.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Little arrogant, maybe more than a little, but anyway, I
walked out.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
And I walked out.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Of the building and turned and go down the side
of the building. And when I was walking down by
the classroom. I noticed a brick in the flower red
so I just picked it up and threw it through
the window. And then the school decided that I wasn't
a very good fit. So I didn't even know what
(01:57):
expelled meant, but I learned. So I had to go
home and tell my school teacher mother that they no
longer wanted me in Greenwood High School. And so she said, well,
thank god there was no communication between schools. You can
(02:18):
go to it Abina High School. It was about fifteen
miles in another direction. They ran a school bus there too. Well,
my second day, I got in a fight with the
school bus driver and they were very now reminded, and
(02:40):
they decided that maybe I did not need to be
a student there either. My mother, she was a good woman,
but my mother had problems. And I left home and
I walked up the railroad and slept under Bridge. I
(03:01):
got a job on a construction crew, and I got
a room and a boarding home, and I worked there
all summer and September came and the foreman said, well, John,
I guess you'll be leaving now because school started. And
(03:23):
I said, no, I'm not going back to school. Anymore,
I've quit and he looked at me and said why.
I said, I don't like school and he said, you
damn fool, and he said, you fired. Get off of
this job. And so I had heard about more Head.
(03:46):
There was a agricultural high school in junior college there.
So I hitchedagged more Head and I went in and
I found the president's office and I told him I
didn't have any money, but I wanted to go to school.
There was boarding school also, and so he said, well,
(04:09):
will you work? And I said of course, and he
said okay. So I had a roommate named Robert, and
Robert and I got to be good friends. Every weekend
we would slip off campus and get drunk, and Robert
and I decided we didn't need any more education. So
(04:33):
we went to work on a construction job. We would
work all week and go to the bars or whereover.
And September the second or third, we went to a
little bar and got drunk, and I came home about
(04:55):
two o'clock and the next morning, the lady in the
board the house came in and woke me up and said,
Robert killed himself last night. And I could not believe
it because he and I played football and run track
(05:16):
together for years, and he never mentioned suicide.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
And I was a pall bearer.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
And these they put the casket in a pine box
and everybody left, and there were two men throwing dirt
in on top of this pine box. And I sat
there and I watched those clouds bouncing off the top
(05:50):
of that pine box. And you know, don't believe this,
but I don't expect you to, but I heard it and.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Have never forgotten.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
John. Before you keep living the way you're living, and
a few months some clouds just fleck. This will be
bouncing off your casket, and the world will never know
or care that you have lived. And I was no
(06:24):
mistaken now it was God or somebody looking after me.
I went to my boarding house and I got some
clothes and I went straight out on the highway and
hitchhock to Jackson, Mississippi. I had heard that Mississippi College
(06:46):
was a Christian college and that everybody there was a Christian.
It was a perfect place.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
In my mind.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I was scared to death that I was gonna kill
myself light Robert. And after I heard that Voys, I
knew it was time for me to change.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And you're listening to John DeFore tell his story, and
my goodness, what a story it is. Growing up in
a town with two hundred and fifty people getting thrown
out of school not once, but twice, and so he
decides to hitchhike to a Christian college, Mississippi College. When
we come back, more of the story of World War
Two veteran John Defour here on Our American Stories. This
(07:33):
is Lee Habib, host of our American Stories. Every day
on this show we tell stories of history, faith, business, love, loss,
and your stories. Send us your story small or large
to our email oas Atouramerican Stories dot com. That's oas
at Ouramerican Stories dot Com. We'd love to hear them
(07:54):
and put them on the air. Our audience loves them too.
And we returned to Our American Stories and to John
de four who's sharing his life story and ultimately how
(08:16):
we ended up in the army during World War Two.
When we last left off, he just decided to go
to Mississippi College, a Christian college in Clinton, Mississippi, not
far down the road from where we broadcast in Oxford, Mississippi,
which is in the northern part of the state. About
an hour south of Memphis. Let's pick up with John
(08:38):
where we last left off.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I wasn't a Christian, of course when I went there,
but I studied like crazy, and after about two years
the professor offered me a scholarship for the next semester.
And I had a lady in one of my classes,
and she was a excellent student, and she kept talking
(09:06):
to me about becoming a Christian, and I got really irritated,
and when the semester ended, I gave her a D
on the course, and she was a straight A student.
And the professor, who had sought of become a friend,
said why did you do that? And I said because
(09:29):
I don't like her, and he said, well, you can't
give her bedgrade because and so I changed it, of course,
But anyway, she was very kind. She didn't tell the
professor that I'd given her D. He founded himself. She
didn't report me. And she talked to me about God.
(09:54):
The God that I had learned about was my mother's God,
and that would the antithesis of everything that I would
described to any form of divinity. And so after she
kept talking to me about Jesus Christ, I got a
whole new message from this woman, and so.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I became a Christian.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I was talking one day to this guy on campus
and he said, John, don't you pay a musical instrument?
And I said, yeah, ply three or four. And he said, well,
the man here pays a dollar a rehearsal.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Why don't you join?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
And I thought, boy, four dollars a month. And so
I didn't ask any questions. I just signed up. But
what I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
What I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Was it was a.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
National Guard man and that's why I was made. And
so I did find a man. And about six months
after I joined, I came one day and the van
director said, gentlemen, I have an announcement. We are being
(11:13):
inducted into the Federal service. And I didn't know what
induct it meant. I found out but after the van rehearsal,
I went up and I said, mister macaw, I'm very sorry,
but I can't go. He said, We're going to Camp Landing,
(11:33):
Florida for years training and then you'll come back here.
I said, I'm very sorry, but I can't go. I
have other plans. And he said, young man, you're in
the army. I said, well, I'm not going. He said,
if you do not show up. Do you know what
(11:54):
we called that in the army And I said no.
He said we called it desertion. He said, you know
what we'd do with desergers. I said no. He said
we shoot him. And I thought, well, it doesn't sound
very good. So I went for one year's training. Seven
(12:17):
years later, I finished a one year's training because pretty
soon Pearl Harbor came and after that, man, that was
all she wrote, you know, And I had had some
previous military training. I went into some private first place
(12:38):
and I saw I noticed that they were allowing people
with previous military training to take an examination to see
if they could qualify for commission as an officer. And
so I took the examination with two hundred and fifty people,
(12:58):
and I came out at the top of the class.
And I was one day working in the latrine with
my friend watching church one day and someone said, you
got a message in the orderly tent, And so I
went to the orderly tent and they said you wanted
(13:20):
a division headquarters. Well, division headquarters, that's like Washington d C.
I mean, like it used to be. And so I
went to division headquarters and I met one of the
finest human beings I ever met in my life. His
(13:41):
name was General Maget, General John C. Persons, and he said,
Private de four, you are now a second lieutenant, and
he saluted me. He pinned my bars on and man,
one minute, I'm Private first class, and one minute with
(14:03):
those bars, I'm a second lieutenant. And so I was
assigned to another unit, and I was in a rifle company.
And that was the beginning really of my military career.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
When I became a.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Christian at Mississippi College, and then I realized I was
in the army. I knew I could never kill a
human being. I just knew I could not kill a
human being. And I'm teaching these guys about trench warfare
(14:41):
and particularly about being at practice. But even while I
was doing all that, I knew I couldn't kill a
man if I had to, and I thought about it.
But then I go to New Guinea and I'm still
processes in the mind. And one day I was on
(15:06):
patrol and there were these long, tall grasses that grew
in the jungle called kino grass, And wherever there was
a water hole, the grass grew around it. And so
one day we were on patrol and we ran into water,
(15:30):
and I stopped and laid down on the edge. And
we had had no water all day, so I was
drinking out of this pond. It wasn't very clean, but
I took some in my hand, and I was drinking.
And I lay there just a minute, and all of
(15:52):
a sudden, I hear a noise and a Jap comes
breaking through the grass, and he eyes down there and
starts drinking water, And all of a sudden I saw
him see me. He turned his head and he saw me,
(16:13):
and then he whirled his rifle around and pointed it
at me. And I had a toma, and I shot
him six times, and and I got back to my
safe area. That night, we were all sleeping and hold
(16:34):
and I started getting my hole, and I thought, well, John,
your murderer today. You killed a human being. But that's
just kind of the way it is. When we were
in these tents. Right way we'd come off the ship,
my neighboring unit got a call that the first Battalion
(16:57):
was going on the combat mission up the coast. They'd
located in Japanese ass trip, and they were kind of
plotting our course and dropping bomb some artillery. So this
time we hadn't seen any combat. Well, man, I didn't
know how I was going to function when I was
(17:19):
being shot at. So I just signed up to go
as an observer with this outfit.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
And you've been listening to John to four share his story,
and what a story. Indeed, he gets back to Mississippi College,
joins the band. Turns out it was a National Guard band.
He finds out he has to go and train. He
goes for a one year stint, ends up staying seven
and finds himself in the Pacific Islands face to face
(17:47):
with his own death. When we come back, more of
this remarkable life story. World War Two veteran John Defour's
story continues here on our American Stories, And we're back
(18:09):
with our American stories and with John Defour.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
When we last left off, he just.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Signed up to be an observer on a combat mission
fighting the Japanese. Let's pick back up where we just
left off.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
There was another officer who was glominous and observer, and
a chaplain and a medic, all going as observers.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
And we.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Went up kind of along the beach, half in the
beach and half in the jungle. And it wasn't really
a bad trip up. But what we didn't know was, see,
we are brand new. We didn't know these Jap troops
had been there for three years and they are seasoned
(18:56):
battle troops and we are ranked for rookies. And when
they found out we were coming up the beach, they
just vacated the airstrip and moved back out on the backside,
opposite from the way we were approaching, and built up
a whole file line. And we came to this airstrip
(19:20):
and it looked like it wasn't asserted, and stupid Yankees.
We go in and everybody's just having a good time
walking around, playing, looking at things, and then all of
a sudden, all hell broke loose. They had snipers in
the trees. They had men dug in in the middle
(19:44):
of the area with tops made to the foxhold and
they were popping out of these foxholds, and all of
a sudden, every way you looked, somebody was shooting. And
there was a heavy machine gun that was about fifty
(20:05):
yards in front of me. And I hit the ground
and I was absolutely panic stricken, and my blood turned
to ice water, and I could not move. I was
lying on the ground with my arms. I stretched, but
(20:25):
I couldn't move, and I thought, I've got to do something.
I've got to move, and I was terrified. I couldn't think.
I couldn't move, but I could feel. I could feel
the bullets when that guy would make it sweep. I
(20:47):
could feel the bullet cutting the grass, and the grass
was falling.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Down my neck.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
And all of a sudden, someone said, hey, long johe
and I turned and looked, and here's a Catholic chaplain
over there. He said, you want a vanilla wafer, I
promise you, And he's digging in his fatigue jacket, and
(21:16):
he pulled out box with the wafer and slides mother
the grass and said, my mother sent him to me.
Best vanilla wafers you'll ever eat. Help yourself. And I thought, well,
I'll be there, and I took a couple of a
little wafers, and my ice water all turned to blood,
(21:40):
and my panic and fear vanished, and I handed in
the box back and then I kind of took charge
and got a few men together, and we got together
a little firefight and got out of that trap. But
(22:02):
of vanilla wafers saved my life. And this is a
great guy. He was killed a couple of weeks later,
trying to rescue a man who was stranded out and wounded.
The Japs had a habit. They would get a man wounded,
(22:22):
and they put machine guns covering to take care of
the people who came to pick him up, you know,
And they'd been given orders nobody could rescue, and Chaplain
O'Connor went out.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
I wasn't I wasn't there. He was with another outfit.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
But I talked to some of the medics who picked
up the body, and they said he had a box
fan of waves in his pocket when they found him.
And if you ever come to my office, look in
the bottom right and draw my desk. I got a
(23:08):
box right there right now. I've kept them since the war.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
I don't like to tell this, but the Jets were
smarter soldiers. They had one contingent that we hit one time,
called them Imperial Marines. They were all over six feet
tall and they had all been trained in jungle fighting.
(23:38):
They all carried samurai's swords and they were great swordsmen.
But one day, just by accident, I ran into a
bunch of Japs and we killed all of them but one.
And this was prior to the operation to the landing
on Luzon where I went back to, and we needed
(24:03):
all the prisoners we could get to try to get
information about the placement of troops on Lazaan. And we
were marching him back to our area and the pt
boat was supposed to come along the beach and pick
up these prisoners of war, but he got dark and
(24:24):
the peat boat couldn't come, and so we had to
keep him overnight. And my man, this was late in
the war, and nobody wanted to keep him because they
were not safe to be around prisoners or not. I
had heard this, thank God, that this Japanese officer had
(24:50):
been captured and he was being brought back to the lines,
and he spoke it's English, and he begged the capturing
officer not to kill him. He said, I have a
wife and I have children, and this war will soon
(25:11):
be over for me and for you, and you will
go home and do anything with me, but please please
don't kill me. I don't want to die. And this
officer gave in, and then he let his guard down,
and this man who had begged for his life, took
(25:32):
this guy's pistol and killed him. Well, this told guy
that I had was talking to me the same way.
He said, do anything, but just don't kill me. He said,
I'm not mad at you Americans, You're not mad at me.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
And he said, you.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Don't know me, and I don't know you, and just
whatever you do, don't kill me. Well, I listened to
the y I guess maybe. It took us an hour
to get back to area, and he was fair convincing.
And then I remembered this incident that had happened where
(26:15):
this man had done the same thing. So I turned
around and I had to look him in ah, and
I killed him. I wonder sometimes about.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
That guy, And what a story you're hearing from John before.
It's true that warriors hell, and he's describing that hell
in vivid to tell he was a part of it.
He recalled that one story when US troops were on
an airfield that he was a part of seizing, only
to find out that the Japanese had lured him into
a trap sniper's up high marksmen dug in trenches. During
(26:57):
that firefight, there was that chapel offering him a Vanella wafer,
and in the midst of combat, it eased Lieutenant Defore's
fears and to this day, John told us those vanilla
wafers are still in his office.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
They're still close by.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
When we come back more of John Defore's story, a
World War Two veteran, a fellow Mississippian here on our
American stories. And we returned to our American stories and
(27:41):
to the final portion of John Defour's story. He told
us a few tales about his time in the war
and how he'd struggled with having to kill. In this
final segment, he'll be talking about life after the war,
his family and his wife Marian Sue, who was joining
us in this interview. Well, you'll hear from them briefly
(28:03):
in the end of this segment. Let's return to John
with the rest of his story.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
This girl, I had asked her to marry me three
years earlier, before I went overseas. She'd written me a
letter every day. I didn't always get him, but I
went to Sidon, Mississippi, and I was ready to get
married the minute I hit Sideen. Of course, she kept
(28:33):
talking about receptions and flowers and things like that, but
I just wanted to go to justice the piece that
didn't work. So we got married and we drove from sidon.
I wanted to spend the night in the Peabody Hotel
because that was where my mother and father spent their
(28:55):
wedding night and a little bit embarrassing. But we went
to bed and in the middle of the night I
had a nightmare. You know, they call it PTSD. PTSD
(29:16):
is when you replay a bad scene in your mind
and it controlled your perception of reality. And all of
a sudden, in the middle of the night, I was
screaming and cussing and fighting Japs like crazy. Man. They
(29:39):
were just flooded over the walls and everything. And my
wife is wide eyed back leaning against the headboard, saying,
what's the matter with you?
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Are you crazy? If you lost your mind? What in
the world?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
And I thought she was going to leave because she
was absolutely terrified. Well, I was trying to explain what
was the matter at two o'clock in the morning on
my ready wedding night, and it was very difficult there
(30:21):
for a while. We almost got a divorce before daylight,
but there was no JP. But she finally got accustomed
to and she could talk me down. Usually there's an
existential philosopher. I think it's Hans Sayer who made the
(30:46):
statement there's no difference between the homicide and suicide. And
I want to tell you that's true, because you can't
kill another human being. You can't cut a man's throat
(31:09):
without injuring yourself. I promised myself when I was discharged
from that hospital that I would never put on a uniform,
carry a gun, or talk about the war ever. Man
(31:31):
soon now we're working in Manila. We worked for holiday inns,
and we worked mostly in the Eastern area with China,
Japan and places like that.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
And wee came. We had weekend off and we.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Were in Manila, and I said, I want to see Karrigadoor.
And so we got on the boat and we were
going to Karrigador and I'm sitting in the benches across
the seats. The boat was just packed and I'm sitting
there and I see this young man sitting next to me.
(32:12):
He looked like he was younger, and I said, why
are you going to see Kurgador? And he said, you
really want to know. I could tell he was American.
He said you really want to know? And I said yeah.
He said, well, my father was over here during the
(32:35):
war and said he never talked about the war. He
never said a word about the war, and up to
this time I had never talked to anybody about the
war ever. And he looked at me and he said,
(32:56):
he said, do you have sons. I said, yeah, I
have four sons. He said, have you talked about the
war to your boys? And I said no, never. He said,
this is a total stranger. He said, promise me, as
(33:18):
soon as you get home, you'll talk to your boys
about the war. My daddy never talked about and I've
always wondered about this big blank spot in his life.
And he said, I'm over here trying to put together
the little pieces that I found out about my dad
(33:39):
in the war, and I want you to promise me
you'll talk to your sons. And I said I promised.
I didn't mean it, but we went on to Garrigador
and looked around. Well late that afternoon when we were
coming back, I was out back watching the waves and
(34:02):
he came in found me and I didn't even know
his name. He said, you made me a promise. I said,
I'll be to him and he said, you didn't mean it.
I said, no, I didn't. He said, I want to promise.
(34:25):
He came the third time, I want to promise. And
when I got home I started talking about the war.
I found that all four of my sons had had
nightmares about the war. What I had buried on my
(34:46):
insides came out in there unconscious, thinking, my sons of
the four most beautiful men I've ever known, and they were.
They were very kind, and I could not have asked
(35:08):
them to have reacted with more compassion and understanding. And
I wish that I had started talking years earlier. But
you know, I'll laugh and say funny that I know
(35:31):
I'm half crazy because of what I've been through. I
couldn't be totally completely sane, but so far I've been
able to.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Pass all the all the tests.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
William to Concer German was a Union general during the war.
Led the troops all the way across Georgia North Carolina
to the ocean. One day talking to him, he gave
us an often quoted phrase, war is hell. Every day
(36:15):
You get up and you go honey, and you just
look for somebody to kill all day long, and you
kill him and you don't even bury him. You just
walk off after you search him. And that's crazy. It
is insanity. And I wish that the people who talk
(36:38):
about war had to either send their children or go themselves.
I hope if the man in Washington decides to protect us,
if Tynda attack for Mosa or wherever we fight, I
hope he'll send his son. I've lisked in the mirror
(37:03):
and said, my God, are.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
You that man? And I'd just say yeah, but I
wasn't proud of John.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
What everybody in this room has their freedom today.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, yep, and we are proud to say it. Well,
I'd rather have been you. We're proud of Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And a special thanks to Madison Derekcott for producing that piece.
And you heard John's family because John was breaking down,
regretting what he'd done in the war, regretting having killed
so many people, and they had to come in and
just help them and save him from his own feelings
of grief decades and decades later. What a story he told.
(37:57):
There's no difference between a homicide and his side. John said,
you can't kill another human being without injuring yourself. The
story of John before, the story of war, the story
of its aftermath, and the story of so much more.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Here on our American Stories
Host
Lee Habeeb
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