June 20, 2025 • 10 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, the creators of Captain America were looking for the perfect villain, but why create one when he already existed? This led to the most important punch in comic book history, the one thrown at Hitler nearly a full year before Pearl Harbor. Joe Parrott, a history professor at Ohio State University, shares the story.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
And we returned to our American stories. Up next, the
origin story of America's superhero, Captain America. You to tell
the story of how he came to be is our
Joseph Parrot. But first, a clip from a rare interview
given by Jack Kirby, one of Captain America's creators. Let's
(00:30):
take a listen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I've always tried to do the timely thing. The timely thing,
I think is what people understand. Captain America is a
product of his time.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
If you're talking about Captain America, I mean, the first
place you have to start is with that origin story.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
It's a plane's Superman.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
You had an explosion after the appearance of super in
the latening from thirties of these.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Superheroes who were selling really well, and so you had a.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Lot of new heroes popping up, and you had a
number of mostly young guys concentrated in New York trying
to create these new heroes.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
And one of these guys was somebody named Joe Simon.
And Joe Simon was working with another guy named Jack Kirby.
His name was Jacob Kurtzberg at the time.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
But Joe Simon's trying to come up with one of
these heroes, and the first thing he kind of thinks.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
To himself one day.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I mean, there are a bunch of stories about this,
but if we listened to Joe Simon's version, which I
think is pretty good. Here's Captain America's co creator Joe
Simon in the twenty eleven documentary Captain America The First Avenger.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
That was twenty four when we first created Captain America.
Jack Kirby was twenty two. At the beginning there, Ben
Man was doing very well, basically on the use of
his films. So I said, maybe that's the answer, you know,
get get yourself a good villain, and then get up
well for the villain. Said it other way around.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Joe Simon asked himself, essentially, all right, how do we
get the best heroes? I mean, he said that essentially
the best heroes, the ones who sold the best, were the.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Ones who fought the best villains.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
So if you're trying to think of the kind of
best villain of the era, why create a new villain
when you have the best villain possible.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
At Alf Hitler. Okay, well he's alive one on his own,
brutal way, he'll be the villain.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And who do we get to fight against the Nazis?
Who better than Captain America. Here's Jack Kirby, the creator
of Captain America, explaining more about that.
Speaker 6 (02:43):
In nineteen eighty eight, this.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Was at a time when everybody was patriotic. There wasn't
a day passed on that, you know, we didn't get
news from Europe and the newspapers, and it was ridiculous
not to in America. There was an idea that would
have been bought by everybody.
Speaker 7 (03:04):
So Joe and I did that.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Our job was to sell common books.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
So they essentially create Captain America. Joe Simon and Jack Kirby.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Doo as this kind of antithesis to Hitler and this
Nazi regime, and so he has to stand for kind
of all the best parts of the United States. Stanford, Democracy,
stand for freedom, stand for a certain level of ideal equality, right,
which contrasts against Hitler in Nazi Germany, which is fascist,
(03:33):
targeting Jews and Gypsies and all these other folks, and
also invading much of Europe, invading poland invading France by
nineteen forty, isolating Great Britain.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
And bombing London over and over and over again.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Captain America essentially stands for everything that Hitler doesn't, and.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
That's how we get in December of nineteen.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Forty, a full year before Pearl Harbor, this first issue
of Captain America where he's jumping.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Through the window and beating up on Hitler, punching Hitler
in the face, and.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Captain America breaking into Nazi strongholds.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
That's the introduction to Captain America and the introduction to
this kind of superhero that stands not just for a
kind of might and taking care of the little person,
but for all these values that the United States is
going to become associated with.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Captain America became a symbol of everything that was happening.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
It's first release, just after the Peacetime Draft started. Captain
America is this little, scrawny four F guy we later
get to know.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
His name is Steve Rogers.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
Want to be a soldier, but he was skinny and
not very musculine and so forth.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
But because he's so patriotic, he's selected essentially for this
experiment to create American super soldiers to in many ways
fight this kind of ideal of the German super soldier.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
The chemical is perfected gentleman.
Speaker 7 (04:58):
Then the time has come a last, there's nothing more
to be said. Then I wish you god speed, and.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
He becomes this singular Captain America because.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
As this experiment is happening, it's shown that there's actually
a German agent who's infiltrated the experiment. You and your.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
Person experiment shall thine within this room.
Speaker 7 (05:22):
Down with democracy, Down with freedom.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Doctor Riskin, Hey got a Rodgers, I'll stop that murderer.
Speaker 6 (05:32):
No, it's my job, It's what I was.
Speaker 7 (05:35):
Created to do. You know.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
He kills the scientist who's in charge of this, He
destroys a formula before Captain America is able to take
him out, and by the end of that story it's
revealed that he's actually Private Steve Rogers. So he's Captain America,
the superhero, but in real life he's this relatively low
ranking guy. So if Hitler is the number one villain,
we also get this creation of this kind of ultimate
(05:59):
comic book.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
Nazis.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
I used to go to a place called Trash and
I had my lunch share usually wind up with a
hot fudge Sunday. I sipped there, look at the hot
fudnch Sunday thinking of a villain, and I shee this
brown fudge chemicals coming on. I said, whoa, that's a
very weird looking creature. A lion looks so much that
(06:24):
we'll call him hot Fudge. And then I kept looking
at it, kept looking at it, and then I saw
the big cherry on top of it, and I said,
that's it.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
The Rich Skull. It was a cherry.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
He's originally kind of an American fifth Calmness.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
He's actually killed, but he's such a good villain, the
Red Skull, he's so memorable.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
He becomes so associated with Nazis, and he.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Gets trotted back out a number of times in the
nineteen forties. He tends to get killed and then he
kind of magically appears, but he kind of captures that
threat of Nazis being one kind of you know, just
constantly there, constantly fighting, constantly reappearing, but also that kind
of almost visage death.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
America.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
But you will not interfere with my friends nothing and
top Veteran Cow.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
One of the things I think is really important is
really to emphasize when.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Captain America came out, it is.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
A full year before Pearl Harbor. I can't stress that enough.
And we're coming out of this period where the United
States was extremely isolation is. Even though Britain looks like
they're kind of the last great democracy of Europe against
this fascist threat, there's still a real sense of hesitance,
of fear of this isn't our fight.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
That we have this free security provided by oceans. Joe
Simon Jack.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Kirby, a first generation Polish Jewish American from Manhattan. These
two kind of New York Jews, they understand exactly what
this threat from Hitler is, partially because the Jewish and
then the part because they're in New York.
Speaker 7 (08:03):
I once had six Nazis call me up and they said, well,
we're waiting for you downstairs. We're going to beat the
daylights out of you, you know, for writing these stories
about Hitler. These were New York Nazis and they had
a camp on Long Island, and so I said, hold on, guys,
I'll be right down. Of course, I take the elevator down,
(08:27):
but there was nobody there. I looked the street, and
of course they wouldn't be there. And I didn't feel disappointed.
And I felt disappointed. Didn't matter to me one way
or the other, you know, if they wanted to fight, well,
what the heck?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
In New York, there's this kind of sense the United
States students to get involved in this fighting. This is
especially strongly felt in the Jewish community, among others. And
so when they have Captain America jumping through this window
punching Hitler in the face, this is essentially a call
to action.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
All on this. All our legends reflect our addiction to
create legends, and I feel that's a human quality. I
felt that it was time to create a new kind
of legend. He did those daring things which Americans dreamt
(09:19):
of doing and we're on the brink of doing but
where he was still binding out time.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
And then once the United States is actually into the war,
he's actually going to the front line, whereas Superman and Batman.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Actually tend to hang back.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
So this really legitimizes Captain America, becomes central to his
identity as a hero, that he's out there fighting that
good fight for democracy. And it seems just kind of fun,
fanciful comic stuff to you know, grab kids and adults attention,
But it's more than that. In many ways, it taps
into some of the real anxieties that existed in the
(09:55):
United States about this potential for Nazi invasion and Captain
America superheroes are kind of the American psychological answer, right,
let's kind of trop these guys out. They are our
own super soldiers, they represent our own, you know, best
ideals for how we'd like to fight these things, and
then offering, you know, a fun message that, hey, you know,
we're gonna beat these guys. We're gonna win.
Speaker 6 (10:14):
This is gonna be great.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
The story of Captain America. Here on our American stories
And we returned to our American stories. Up next, the
origin story of America's superhero, Captain America. You to tell
the story of how he came to be is our
Joseph Parrot. But first, a clip from a rare interview
given by Jack Kirby, one of Captain America's creators. Let's
(00:30):
take a listen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I've always tried to do the timely thing. The timely thing,
I think is what people understand. Captain America is a
product of his time.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
If you're talking about Captain America, I mean, the first
place you have to start is with that origin story.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
It's a plane's Superman.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
You had an explosion after the appearance of super in
the latening from thirties of these.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Superheroes who were selling really well, and so you had a.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Lot of new heroes popping up, and you had a
number of mostly young guys concentrated in New York trying
to create these new heroes.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
And one of these guys was somebody named Joe Simon.
And Joe Simon was working with another guy named Jack Kirby.
His name was Jacob Kurtzberg at the time.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
But Joe Simon's trying to come up with one of
these heroes, and the first thing he kind of thinks.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
To himself one day.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I mean, there are a bunch of stories about this,
but if we listened to Joe Simon's version, which I
think is pretty good. Here's Captain America's co creator Joe
Simon in the twenty eleven documentary Captain America The First Avenger.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
That was twenty four when we first created Captain America.
Jack Kirby was twenty two. At the beginning there, Ben
Man was doing very well, basically on the use of
his films. So I said, maybe that's the answer, you know,
get get yourself a good villain, and then get up
well for the villain. Said it other way around.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Joe Simon asked himself, essentially, all right, how do we
get the best heroes? I mean, he said that essentially
the best heroes, the ones who sold the best, were the.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Ones who fought the best villains.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
So if you're trying to think of the kind of
best villain of the era, why create a new villain
when you have the best villain possible.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
At Alf Hitler. Okay, well he's alive one on his own,
brutal way, he'll be the villain.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And who do we get to fight against the Nazis?
Who better than Captain America. Here's Jack Kirby, the creator
of Captain America, explaining more about that.
Speaker 6 (02:43):
In nineteen eighty eight, this.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Was at a time when everybody was patriotic. There wasn't
a day passed on that, you know, we didn't get
news from Europe and the newspapers, and it was ridiculous
not to in America. There was an idea that would
have been bought by everybody.
Speaker 7 (03:04):
So Joe and I did that.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Our job was to sell common books.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
So they essentially create Captain America. Joe Simon and Jack Kirby.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Doo as this kind of antithesis to Hitler and this
Nazi regime, and so he has to stand for kind
of all the best parts of the United States. Stanford, Democracy,
stand for freedom, stand for a certain level of ideal equality, right,
which contrasts against Hitler in Nazi Germany, which is fascist,
(03:33):
targeting Jews and Gypsies and all these other folks, and
also invading much of Europe, invading poland invading France by
nineteen forty, isolating Great Britain.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
And bombing London over and over and over again.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Captain America essentially stands for everything that Hitler doesn't, and.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
That's how we get in December of nineteen.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Forty, a full year before Pearl Harbor, this first issue
of Captain America where he's jumping.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Through the window and beating up on Hitler, punching Hitler
in the face, and.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Captain America breaking into Nazi strongholds.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
That's the introduction to Captain America and the introduction to
this kind of superhero that stands not just for a
kind of might and taking care of the little person,
but for all these values that the United States is
going to become associated with.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Captain America became a symbol of everything that was happening.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
It's first release, just after the Peacetime Draft started. Captain
America is this little, scrawny four F guy we later
get to know.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
His name is Steve Rogers.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
Want to be a soldier, but he was skinny and
not very musculine and so forth.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
But because he's so patriotic, he's selected essentially for this
experiment to create American super soldiers to in many ways
fight this kind of ideal of the German super soldier.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
The chemical is perfected gentleman.
Speaker 7 (04:58):
Then the time has come a last, there's nothing more
to be said. Then I wish you god speed, and.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
He becomes this singular Captain America because.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
As this experiment is happening, it's shown that there's actually
a German agent who's infiltrated the experiment. You and your.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
Person experiment shall thine within this room.
Speaker 7 (05:22):
Down with democracy, Down with freedom.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Doctor Riskin, Hey got a Rodgers, I'll stop that murderer.
Speaker 6 (05:32):
No, it's my job, It's what I was.
Speaker 7 (05:35):
Created to do. You know.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
He kills the scientist who's in charge of this, He
destroys a formula before Captain America is able to take
him out, and by the end of that story it's
revealed that he's actually Private Steve Rogers. So he's Captain America,
the superhero, but in real life he's this relatively low
ranking guy. So if Hitler is the number one villain,
we also get this creation of this kind of ultimate
(05:59):
comic book.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
Nazis.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
I used to go to a place called Trash and
I had my lunch share usually wind up with a
hot fudge Sunday. I sipped there, look at the hot
fudnch Sunday thinking of a villain, and I shee this
brown fudge chemicals coming on. I said, whoa, that's a
very weird looking creature. A lion looks so much that
(06:24):
we'll call him hot Fudge. And then I kept looking
at it, kept looking at it, and then I saw
the big cherry on top of it, and I said,
that's it.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
The Rich Skull. It was a cherry.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
He's originally kind of an American fifth Calmness.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
He's actually killed, but he's such a good villain, the
Red Skull, he's so memorable.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
He becomes so associated with Nazis, and he.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Gets trotted back out a number of times in the
nineteen forties. He tends to get killed and then he
kind of magically appears, but he kind of captures that
threat of Nazis being one kind of you know, just
constantly there, constantly fighting, constantly reappearing, but also that kind
of almost visage death.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
America.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
But you will not interfere with my friends nothing and
top Veteran Cow.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
One of the things I think is really important is
really to emphasize when.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Captain America came out, it is.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
A full year before Pearl Harbor. I can't stress that enough.
And we're coming out of this period where the United
States was extremely isolation is. Even though Britain looks like
they're kind of the last great democracy of Europe against
this fascist threat, there's still a real sense of hesitance,
of fear of this isn't our fight.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
That we have this free security provided by oceans. Joe
Simon Jack.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Kirby, a first generation Polish Jewish American from Manhattan. These
two kind of New York Jews, they understand exactly what
this threat from Hitler is, partially because the Jewish and
then the part because they're in New York.
Speaker 7 (08:03):
I once had six Nazis call me up and they said, well,
we're waiting for you downstairs. We're going to beat the
daylights out of you, you know, for writing these stories
about Hitler. These were New York Nazis and they had
a camp on Long Island, and so I said, hold on, guys,
I'll be right down. Of course, I take the elevator down,
(08:27):
but there was nobody there. I looked the street, and
of course they wouldn't be there. And I didn't feel disappointed.
And I felt disappointed. Didn't matter to me one way
or the other, you know, if they wanted to fight, well,
what the heck?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
In New York, there's this kind of sense the United
States students to get involved in this fighting. This is
especially strongly felt in the Jewish community, among others. And
so when they have Captain America jumping through this window
punching Hitler in the face, this is essentially a call
to action.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
All on this. All our legends reflect our addiction to
create legends, and I feel that's a human quality. I
felt that it was time to create a new kind
of legend. He did those daring things which Americans dreamt
(09:19):
of doing and we're on the brink of doing but
where he was still binding out time.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
And then once the United States is actually into the war,
he's actually going to the front line, whereas Superman and Batman.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Actually tend to hang back.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
So this really legitimizes Captain America, becomes central to his
identity as a hero, that he's out there fighting that
good fight for democracy. And it seems just kind of fun,
fanciful comic stuff to you know, grab kids and adults attention,
But it's more than that. In many ways, it taps
into some of the real anxieties that existed in the
(09:55):
United States about this potential for Nazi invasion and Captain
America superheroes are kind of the American psychological answer, right,
let's kind of trop these guys out. They are our
own super soldiers, they represent our own, you know, best
ideals for how we'd like to fight these things, and
then offering, you know, a fun message that, hey, you know,
we're gonna beat these guys. We're gonna win.
Speaker 6 (10:14):
This is gonna be great.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
The story of Captain America. Here on our American stories
Host
Lee Habeeb
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