The Untold Story of Red Cloud, an American Legend

On this episode of Our American Stories, Bob Drury and Tom Clavin have finally given the little-known Red Cloud the recognition he deserves and share with us the story from their New York Times bestseller, The Heart of Everything That Is: The Untold Story of Red Cloud, an American Legend.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is our American stories. The great Sioux Warrior Statesmen.
Red Cloud was the only American Indian in history to
defeat the United States Army in a war, forcing the
government to sue for peace on his terms. Bob Drewy
and Tom Claven have finally given the little known Red
Cloud the recognition he deserves with their New York Times

(00:35):
bestseller The Heart of Everything. That is the untold story
of Red Cloud, an American legend. Here's Bob and Tom
to share the story with us, Beginning with Bob. This book,
it's basically an untold story until now about how one

(00:56):
man created an empire, if you will, on the high Plains.
At one point, Red Cloud's territory included about one fifth
of what is today the contiguous United States, and no
one before we don't think we really knew what was
going on in that great swath of territory bounded by

(01:19):
the Missouri Rivers, the Mississippi River, and the Rockies and cartographers,
early cartographers, despite Lewis and Clark's exploration, they just labeled
it the Great American Desert. And no one knew how
Red Cloud had consolidated this empire. Now, of course, when
he fought his war and won his war against the

(01:40):
United States, the only American Indians ever win a war,
not a battle of war against the United States. People
certainly knew who he was, but we were a little
trepidacious when we first started this book. Obviously there was
no one a left from the nineteenth century. But what
we did find is that our forebears were such literate people.

(02:00):
We went into this expecting maybe we'd get some after
action reports from the army when the soldiers started moving west,
maybe the officers, maybe an officer's wife might have kept
a journal. As it turns out, every teamster's wife kept
a diary, and we found all these end letters. And Tom,

(02:20):
he'll explain to you. At some of these university libraries
and historical centers, they would bring out a journal in
a plexic lass case and you had to turn the
pages with tongs because your oil from your fingers would
destroy the vellum. I guess it was written on. And
there were letters from twelve year old girls who had
passed the Oregon train. You know Paul was killed last

(02:41):
year by the Indians first train in this year. Said
they dug up his grave. We don't maybe it was wolves,
but we think it might have been Indians again, that
kind of stuff. So we actually felt like we were
interviewing people for this book. As far fetched as that
might sound, we got into it so much that we
felt we were living the lives with these people. That said,
going to have to give you a little what we

(03:02):
call the dreaded backstory, because you really can't understand Red
Cloud without understanding the Sioux Nation. So what we do
know what was to become the pre Columbian Sioux Nation.
It was seven tribes, the Tribes of the Seven Council Fires.
They followed the Mississippi Valley north and they settled in Minnesota.

(03:23):
Now in Minnesota, they were the baddest Indians in the
Great Lake region and for centuries they just made unending
war on their predominantly Algonquin neighbors, the Creed, the Chippewa,
and they were vicious. They War was their ethos. Unlike
other tribes. They had no non violent culture. They did

(03:44):
not make pots, they did not grow food, they did
not even paint anything on their tepees or their shields.
War was the reason for being and the first Europeans,
mostly French, who looked at the Sioux I mean they
were imediately reminded of the Norse berserkers, or the Huns
or the Mongols. The Sioux lived to make war. That

(04:07):
was their ethos, and they were good at it, and
they were real good at it in for centuries, for
hundreds of years, they just dominated the region. But then
what happened was when the English trading ships started to
come into Hudson Bay, and the Cree and the Chippewa
who lived closer to the bay began trading pelts for guns,
and the tables turned. Once the Sioux had been the hunter,

(04:30):
now they were the hunted. Once they had extolled violence
for a violence. Say, see what the Europeans didn't understand
watching in particular the Sioux, but the American Indian culture
in general, was it wasn't violence for a violence sake. Yes,
they fought wars to gain territory and to bring home booty.
But also the old cliche the happy hunting ground. The

(04:51):
Sioux and most of the plane stripes for that matter,
really believed that there was and afterlife that was a
happy hunting ground, and it was filled with clear running
streams and game. As far as you can see, a
buffalo and elk and deer and antelope and beautiful maidens
just waiting to be taken. But what happened was there

(05:12):
they believed that you went to this afterlife in the
same way you left the earth. So what the Europeans
didn't understand about the scalpings and about the mutilations, and
if you went to the if your enemy went to
the happy honeyground with no eyes to see how beautiful
it was, if he went with no arms to draw

(05:32):
back a bowstring, if he went with no penis to
take advantage of these calmly maidens, well then you had
he had suffered two indignities at your hands, one here
on Earth and one there. And that's what a lot
of this was all about. When the Europeans came down,
of course, they didn't understand this at all, and they
started trading guns with the other Indians, and the other
Indians began hunting the Sioux, who were still using prehistoric

(05:55):
tools flintlock knives, flintlock arrowheads. They drove the Sioux into
the swamps of Minnesota, and finally their territory just became
so compromised that they had a choice, an existential choice.
They either would die or they had to step out
onto the prairie. They ended up stepping out onto the prairie.
Even on the prairie, they were still even though they

(06:16):
kept up their warlike ethos, but they were still the
tribes we don't think of the Mandans, the arik Harras,
the Reees, the Omahas, the Otos. They were kicking the Sioux.
But because these tribes were mounted and the Sioux were
not yet mounted. And one Cheyenne, one regal Cheyenne I,
described the Sioux as scraggly, lace ridden band begging for handouts.

(06:41):
That's how bad it was. But that all changed again.
The worm turned yet again when the English started coming
down first the Minnesota River and then the Missouri River
and establishing trade fairs. Now they were on the edge
of Sioux the North con Sioux Territory, and the Sioux
were the ones the first tribes to get weapons, to
get guns, to get shot, to get ammunition, to get

(07:04):
iron pots that would they would break into arrowheads. Sooner
or later, the Sioux took their revenge on the smaller
tribes that had been almost picking them apart. The mandan
Zio Tows, the Reese, and then something happened that changed
the course of Western history the Spanish. I love this

(07:28):
part of the book, and I love this story, but
I won't go too off course here, but I will
say when the Spanish brought the tough little mustang into
South America in Mexico, it was a match made in heaven.
Unlike the big, lumbering Northern European war horses or plow horses,
these mustangs had started out on the Central Asian steps

(07:49):
and had followed the trade routes through the Mid East
along northern Africa, had interbred with desert horses. And when
the Moors invaded Spain, they came over with these tough
little and they were right at home on the Andalusian plane.
They could run forever, they could eat weed, they could
eat bark, and once again, when the Spanish brought them

(08:11):
to the New World, they were right at home in
the new World. What happened was is the Spanish, as
they conquered and forcibly converted at the Indians up into
what is now the United States, they made deals with them.
You worship our God, who you don't understand, We're basically
going to enslave you. You grow our crops but in exchange,

(08:32):
we have horses, and we're gonna protect you from your
age old enemy, the Apache. Well, the Apache began raiding
hacienda isn't rancheros, and they got horses. They didn't know
how if an Apache would ride a horsel at died
and he would eat it, so they didn't know how
to breed it. But this gave them room to further

(08:52):
out their raids, and they started raiding the pueblo. And
the Pueblo said, anywait minute, you enslaved us. You're mechan
us worship some Christian god we know nothing about, and
you're into the dealers to protect us from the Apache.
You can't even do that now. So in sixteen eighty
the Pueblo rose and they drove the Spanish back into
Old Mexico. And the Spanish ran so fast they left

(09:13):
everything behind. So the Pueblo they ate the cattle, they
ate the sheep, but they weren't a horse tribe, and
they just let the horses go. And this was the
beginning of the great horse expansion on the United in
the northern hemisphere of this in the United States, and
you're listening to Bob Drewry and you'll be hearing the
story the continuing Story of Red Cloud, the New York

(09:34):
Times bestseller The Heart of Everything, That is the untold
story of Red Cloud, an American legend. The story continues
here on our American stories, and we continue with our

(10:10):
American stories and with Bob Drewy and Tom Cleven and
they're telling the untold story of Red Cloud. Let's continue
with Bob. And so the horse gradually made its way
along once again ancient trade routes north. The Comanche were
the first true true horsemen on the plains they had.
They were a scraggly tribe too, that had come out

(10:31):
of the Wind River Range in Wyoming. But they learned
how to breed horses. They made rudimentary saddles. They were
Sam wins Empire The Summer Moon, which is a tremendous book.
Tom and I argue with Sam about who were better
horsemen to command here the Sioux. I think, if you
go by territory along you have to have I think
you have to go with the Sioux. At least that's
what we tell Sam. But the horse has made their

(10:53):
way north. The Kiowa and Kansas what it is today.
Kansas got him the Paonee and Nebraska, all the way
up to the Cree in Canada, and of course the Cheyenne,
the Sioux, the Crow, the old acquired horses. The Sioux
just took to the horse naturally, and much like the
early Apache raids, now they could spread out more. They

(11:14):
conquered what remnants of the smaller tribes, the Otos, Theres,
the Mandans, and then they took on the big boys,
and they pushed the Pawnee out. They pushed the Kiowa
out of the Black Hills. They pushed the Crow out
of the Powder River country and up into the Rockies.
They controlled basically parts of months from Minnesota to Montana,

(11:35):
to the Great Salt Lake and down to Lower Colorado.
Even it was just it was an empire, but the
Sioux were still seven nations, seven tribes. Sitting Bull, I'm
sure you've all heard of he was a hunk. Papa
Crazy Horse was an Ogolala. Red Cloud himself had an

(11:55):
Oglala mother and a brutal father. So these seven tribes
types were further scattered into the fractious bands and clans.
They all spoke the same language and they all had
the same culture, but they were not united, and they
wouldn't fight each other, but they were They weren't enemies,
but they weren't friendly towards each other. They were just

(12:16):
waiting for someone, if someone would come along and unite them.
So in eighteen twenty one, on the banks of Bluewater
Creek in what is now the Stubby Little Panhandle of Nebraska,
two nights before, a meteor had shot through the sky
left a giant red swath of cloud across the sky.

(12:37):
And in eighteen twenty one, by the banks of blue
Water Creek, a baby was born and his father named
him Red Cloud. And Red Cloud was the man who
would eventually unite these people. Tom will tell you about that.
As Bob just said, Red Cloud was born in May
of eighteen twenty one, and he there's so many stories

(12:57):
that we've heard of in history of people, men and
women who had to have very difficult childhoods and had
to rise above them, and the resiliency and the strength
that they gained from their experiences made them into leaders,
made them tougher than some of their rivals. And that
was certainly Red Cloud's situation. He was born in eighteen

(13:18):
twenty one. His mother was called Walks as she thinks
he had a younger brother, a little spider. Eventually, when
red Cloud was only five years old, his father died.
And his father didn't die of a war or an
accident or anything, that he died of alcoholism. So we're
talking about the mid eighteen twenties and here's a Sioux
man dying of alcoholism. And when the traders, some of

(13:43):
the explorers, but the traders, some of the early migrants,
the people who are working their way west. There were
three powerful diseases they brought with them smallpox, cholera, and alcohol.
And the Indians did not have any immunity to any
of these diseases. They were felled by the hundreds and
Red Cloud thus had to grow up without a father.

(14:05):
A advantage he had is that his mother went back
to her Oglala band that was run by the headman.
There was a man named Old Smoke who she called brother.
Now we don't know where they biologically brothers or was
that just the relationship that they had a brother and
sister relationship, But in any case, Old Smoke took in

(14:28):
this woman and her two young, you know, fatherless children.
Red Cloud was not given anything, you know, he didn't
have a father who was going to bring him up
the ladder, so to speak, like crazy horse had, like
sitting bull would have. So he had to earn everything.
He had to become the best rider, he had to
become the best hunter. Eventually had to become the best warrior.

(14:48):
And over time, even when he was a teenager. You know,
there's a there's a section in the book where we
talked about he went into his first battle when he
was sixteen years old, and there was great excitement in
the village. This war party was being put together because
for the first time, Red Cloud was putting on the
war paint and getting ready for battle. And you know,
the people in the village was saying, red Cloud comes,

(15:09):
Red Cloud comes. As he made his way on his
horse to join this war party. So at a very
early age, he showed qualities and talents that were superior
to most of the people in his tribe. In the
eighteen thirties eighteen forties, he became he rose up the ranks,
he became a leader, he became a great warrior, and

(15:31):
being a warrior, was a great warrior was very important
because we've sort of likened it to what was going
on in the Great Plains at the time. Was sort
of like gang warfare. You know, the tribes, the Sioux,
the Arapaho, the Cheyenne, the Pawnee, the crow They were
almost always at war with each other. And it wasn't
just a war like, Okay, we want to defeat you

(15:52):
and conquer you. It was well, we want this hunting ground. Okay,
we know it belongs to you, but not for long.
Look out here we come. And so there was constant
fighting to steal horses, to steal lands. Obviously, if you
had the best hunting ground, your tribe had a better
chance of survival because there were going to be more buffalo,

(16:13):
there were going to be more elk, they were going
to be more antelope. And one of the things that
Red Cloud he displayed not only great courage and great strength,
he demonstrated great intelligence and empathy. When he came back
from a successful hunting raid, for example, he didn't just
keep everything for himself. He made sure that the elders

(16:34):
got some of what he brought back. He made sure
that some families that had not was struggling to take
care of themselves got some of his bounty that he
brought back. He made sure the people who were in
power and the tribe, Old Smoke and the other elders
that they were taken care of. And in this way
he also started to gain a kind of respect that

(16:55):
he might not otherwise have gotten being a fatherless person.
So into the eighteen fifties he began to be viewed
by the Iglalas as not chief. And I think that's
important if one of the more interesting things that we
found out there was no chief. You know, we're used
to somebody who is an authority in Native American circles

(17:18):
being a chief, but that was actually a white man invention.
Red Cloud was not a chief, but he became like
the most powerful warrior and the head of their warrior society,
and he was observing what was going on. Even though
the tribes spent most of their time fighting each other,

(17:40):
they couldn't help noticing that they were more and more
white people showing up. Fort Laramie was probably the most
prominent fort in that part, you know, on Missouri and
west of the Missouri, and it would be a way station.
As people coming from the east would stop at Fort Laramie.
They would pick up more people, drop off some people
get supplies, drop off supplies, changed verses or whatever, and

(18:01):
then they would go on. That's what the Oregon Trail
was about. They would be going on to Oregon, or
they would be going up to other other places. Certainly,
when gold was discovered in California, the emigration accelerated across
to the west going through and the Red Cloud could
see that the increase in population of people coming across

(18:21):
the territory was doing several things. And you're listening to
Bob Drewry and Tom Cleaven telling the story of Red
Cloud and that mention of white people. The original white
guys poking around in this neck of the woods after
the Louisiana purchase was of course, Lewis and Clark, and
we tell their story well. Clay Jenkinson tells their story

(18:42):
in our multi part series Approaching forty parts the most
epic road trip ever, the story of Lewis and Clark,
And go to our American Stories dot com and plug
it in downloaded if you're taking a long family trip.
Nobody tells the story of Lewis and Clark better than
Clay and Clay Jenkinson is on the History Channel. You

(19:03):
see them all the time, as do you see Bob
and Tom. And when we come back more of this
remarkable story from their New York Times bestseller The Heart
of Everything that Is. The untold story of Red Cloud,
an American Legend continues here on our American Stories, and

(19:38):
we continue with our American stories and Bob Drewry and
Tom mccleveland telling the story of Red Cloud, an American Legend.
Let's return to the story. The Red Cloud could see
that the increase in population of people coming across the
territory was doing several things. One was they were taking

(20:00):
a big share of the Buffalo. He also, Red Cloud
anticipated that they were going to want to go through
or perhaps even occupy, the Black Hills. And for those
who wonder and don't know the title of our book,
the Heart of Everything that is, the Sioux name for
the Black Hills was Pahsapa, and to them translated is

(20:22):
the heart of everything that is. The Black Hills was
the heart of their existence. That's where they believe their
ancestors came from. And it was sacred land to them,
and it certainly could not be given away. It could
not certainly just simply be occupied. It could not be
taken advantage of by the white explorers and settlers and
the army certainly, but he saw that coming. He saw

(20:44):
this clash. You know, Bob mentioned the word empire before.
You know, there was this growing empire of the East,
and there was this empire that Red Cloud was basically
had become the head of because he was this intelligent,
charismatic man and Indians and even though the tribes respected him,
some feared him, but they respected him, and he could

(21:07):
see that they were going to clash against each other.
Something interrupted what he saw, and that was the Civil War.
When the Civil War broke out in eighteen sixty one,
obviously you couldn't have the kind of forts and army
presence in the West that you had because as many
everybody was needed back east, and it was kind of
a respite there and it lasted eighteen sixty one to

(21:28):
eighteen sixty five. And when the Civil War ended, suddenly
there was a big change because this sense of manifest
destiny could go right back into full swing, and the
enormous increase of people started making their way west again,
and the whole coveting of the Great Plains and the
Black Hills began all over again. So I'll turn it

(21:49):
back over to Bob. And during the Civil War two
Gold was being discovered all over the west, Montana, Idaho,
the Front Range in Colorado, and so the miners started
pouring in. In Red Cloud's lifetime, I think there were
four treaties that were broken. The bits just kept coming say, okay,
we're gonna stop here, we'll sign a treaty, we'll touch
the pen. Gold would be discovered somewhere and said, oh, well,

(22:11):
now that treaty didn't count, here's the new one. And
Red Cloud was like, he didn't trust the Whites as
far as he could throw them. But with all this
goal being discovered all over the West, he knew it
was inevitable that he was going to have to fight him.
So he started attacking the miners, and he started attacking
the wagon trains on the Oregon Trail and in cooperation

(22:31):
with During this hiatus that Tom talked about, he had
become such a great name in the plains that even
though he was no Iglala, warriors from other Sioux bands
wanted to ride with him. Hunk Papas would ride in
with him and say we want to ride with you,
hunt with you, fight with you. Rules would come in,
sans arcs would come in, and so he had developed

(22:52):
kind of this intertribal facility that now he was going
to use and turn it on the Whites. And what
he had done that no Indian had ever done before.
He had also co opted other tribes, the Cheyenne, the Arapaho,
some Shoshone. These tribes would fight with the Sioux. This
had never happened before. Washington, the officials back east, the

(23:16):
War Department, they had never They had fought seven Holes
in Florida, they had fought Mohawks, they had fought Jerokee,
but they had never fought multiple tribes at once. And
so Red Cloud's war was a guerrilla war. And he
would attack and pick off a wagon train here, a
supply train there, a mail train here. So the miners,

(23:36):
of course, and the settlers who were passing through appealed
to Washington, who started to send soldiers West. Civil war
was over. We're going to send our soldiers, our battle
hardened soldiers to pick off these with these savages. And
Red Cloud was winning these skirmishes, and the more soldiers
that came out, the more Indians were attracted to his

(23:57):
warrior fiefdom, so to speak. Rick Cloud would set up
three different attacks on a fort here, on a supply
train two hundred miles away, and then on a wagon
train three hundred miles away from that. This has never
happened before. And he would attack, and instead of celebrating,
as was the American Indian custom in habit, he would
attack the next day and the day after that, and

(24:19):
then his warriors would just disappear into the plains. It
was true guerrilla warfare, and we didn't know how to
handle it. So we sent out more and more soldiers.
They had seen some heart, some heart fighting in the
Civil War, but they weren't used to coming across a
supply train where everyone's penis had been hacked off, eyeballs
gouged out, brains gouged out. We think we found her. Actually,

(24:42):
I should credit Tom with this Tom founded journal and
what might be the first time US soldiers making a
pact to kill each other rather than be captured by
the Indians. I mean, this is how far and this
kind of warfare was to them. So finally General Grant
and General Sherman sat, enough is enough, We're going to
send out an army to fight Red Cloud. Well, Red

(25:02):
Cloud wasn't going to fight their army on the European
terms or on the Civil War terms that they wanted.
So they sent out thousands of mounted infantry. From the movies,
we all think it's cavalry John Wayne's cavalry. It wasn't.
It was all mounted infantry who These guys were currently
learning how to ride on the fly, and that was
another advantage the Sioux had. So in the summer of

(25:23):
eighteen sixty five alone, three thousand soldiers combed combed the
west looking for Red Cloud, and he would attack them
and they could never find him. And then in eighteen
sixty six is hard charging Captain Captain Fetterman, German's hand
picked man, Go find me Red Cloud, kill him, and
kill every Sioux male over the age of twelve. Well,

(25:45):
Feederman gets out there and he's of the opinion, you know,
these are Indians, these are savages. Prestore I could ride
through the entire Stoon nation with eighty men, and he
tried to do that. He took out eighty one men
one day, and Right Cloud laid a trap for him,
and Fetterman rode right into it and everyone Fetterman included

(26:06):
in his command were killed. Now, the Americans called it
a massacre the Sioux. The Sioux called it a fight.
It was a fair fight. We beat these guys, we
killed him. But that was the beginning of what came
to be known as Red Clouds War. Now Red Clouds
War would go on for another two years, and there
were many many more Fettermans sent out to capture Red Cloud,
and there were many many more American soldiers who were killed,

(26:30):
while Red Cloud still remained uncaptured and undead. So finally,
after two years, we needed the gold. I mean, we
were living. The United States had built up such a
national debt during the Civil War. We said, we'll do
any Red Cloud come in, what do you want, We'll
have another treaty. We promise we'll keep this treaty. We
know we've broken a dozen before. We promise we'll keep

(26:52):
this one. Just tell us what you want. And Red
Cloud had one demand, and it was a pretty big demand.
And he gave it to Washington representatives and they were like, huh,
and so would Washington meet Red Clouds demand or would
they not. This was the key to rid Clouds War.
The treaty that Red Clouds signed in eighteen sixty eight

(27:13):
to end the war was still in effect when gold
was discovered in the Black Hills miners, were prospectors were
trying to flood into the Black Hills. For a while,
the US government made some attempt to keep them out,
but they realized, you know, we're not going to be
able to do that, so they appointed I got an

(27:33):
expedition together that was headed by George Armstrong Custer who
went in there. And there was no battle. There was
no resistance, no opposition put up to Custer going in there.
But what was happening is his invasion, so to speak,
at the Black Hills, did Bill momentum under the leadership
of Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, that they have to

(27:56):
they have to stop this, they have to they have
to protect the Black Hills. Two years later, the result
was a little Big Horn and the deaths of Custom
at his command at the hands of Sitting Bull and
Crazy Horse, which was a battle that Red Cloud did
not participate in. Red Cloud had already been to Washington. Yeah,
and he had seen the very first place they took

(28:16):
him when he got to this town was to the
Navy yard and showed him to cannons. So when the
White started pouring into the Black Hills, Sitting Bowl and
Crazy Horse said, Okay, it's time to fight him again.
And Red Cloud had kind of honed Crazy Horse. He
had picked him out as a teenager and made him
his field commander at the age of twenty two or something.

(28:36):
So Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull came back to Red
Clouts that we got to do it again. They're coming again.
They broke another treaty. By this time, Redcott had been
to Washington twice, I believe in to New York. He
knew what was on the other side of the Mississippi River,
and he said to Sitting Bowl and Graziers, he said, no,
we can't beat these people. I'm not going to waste
my people. I'm not going to sacrifice my people's lives.

(28:57):
We can't beat these people, which is why Red Cloud
never got involved in the Custified And great job as
always to Greg Hangler for finding this story and editing
it and getting it to us, and a special thanks
to Bob Drewy and to Tom claven And my goodness,
what a read, what a book, what a story, the
heart of everything that is the untold story of Red Cloud,

(29:18):
an American legend. Go to Amazon or the usual suspects
by the book. You won't put it down after signing
the Treaty of Fort Laramie in eighteen sixty eight, Red
Cloud led his people in the transition to reservation life.
In eighteen eighty four, he and his family, along with
five Indian leaders, converted and were baptized as Catholics. My

(29:38):
father Joseph Bushman, outliving all other major Lacoda leaders of
the Indian Wars. Red Cloud died on Pine Ridge Reservation
in South Dakota in nineteen o nine at the age
of eighty seven, and was buried there in the cemetery
now bearing his name. And by the way red Cloud
saw the collision of cultures, there was nothing he could

(29:59):
do about it. The original tragedy of this country, the
story that we tell, because we tell all the stories
good and bad about this great not perfect country, but
great country. Here on our American stories.