December 23, 2025 • 38 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, before the laughs, the monologues, and the unforgettable guests, there was a man whose story seldom got told. In Love Johnny Carson, writer and obsessive researcher Mark Malkoff dives deep into the life of the man who ruled The Tonight Show for three decades. Through exclusive interviews and unseen material, Malkoff builds the most complete picture yet of Johnny Carson.
With more firsthand accounts than anyone has ever compiled, this story goes beyond the suits and sets—it takes us inside the mind of a man who changed TV without ever letting it change him.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American
people coming to you from the city where the West begins,
Fort Worth, Texas. Johnny Carson aficionado Mark Malcoff has amassed
more Carson stories from original sources than anyone in entertainment history.
(00:31):
And now in his book In Love with Johnny Carson,
he sets the record straight of Carson's life, career, legacy,
and character. Let's take a listen, and now, ladies and gentlemen, he.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Johnny Johnny Carson, for thirty years was the most famous
man in America, maybe after the President, certainly the most recognizable.
He dominated popular American culture for decades. People would tune
in to get Carson's take on what was going on
in the day. I do not know any better time
(01:09):
capsule of thirty years from nineteen sixty two to nineteen
ninety two, on what the fashion was, the politics, what
was socially acceptable? Who was famous in everything from athletics
to fashion to sports. This is a man who if
he set a book on air, it could be a
bestseller the next day. He mattered to people. Johnny Carson
(01:32):
grew up in Nebraska, and he was this Midwestern man
and even though he was one of the highest paid
people in Hollywood, the Nebraska never left him. He was
a very polite Midwest gentleman. And it showed I grew
up in.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
The Midwest kind of a normal I guess what you'd
call a normal upbringing, you know, the part of the country.
My folks were supporting and what I wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Did you always know what you wanted to do?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Oh yeah, at the very beginning? Oh sure?
Speaker 5 (01:58):
How old?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Want used to have been a mine? Twelve thirteen years old,
and I knew I wanted to entertain.
Speaker 6 (02:03):
You liked the attention?
Speaker 7 (02:04):
Oh sure? But why why you? I mean why at
age twelve or thirteen?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Because I was at a play or something and I
got up and I did something and people laughed, and
all of a sudden, you say, hey, that sounds pretty good.
So it makes you the center of attention.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Yes, but why did you want to do attention?
Speaker 7 (02:24):
Why did you want.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Why did I want the attention? Because I was shy?
Speaker 7 (02:29):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Because I was shy. Oh that sounds like an ambivalence right. No,
on stage, you see, when you're on stage in front
of an audience, you are kind of in control. When
you're off of the stage or in a situation where
a lot of people, you're not in control. And I
felt awkward. So I went into show business thinking it
would give me a little more I could overcome that shyness.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Where do you think the shyness emanated from.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I bought it in Chicago.
Speaker 6 (02:51):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
The one thing talking about Johnny Carson, the most successful
late night host in the history of the medium consistently
that people would tell me is that the people that
knew him very well that he was the same Johnny
on and off camera, which was very surprising because the
media made him out to be very cold and aloof
and Johnny Carson was this very funny, polite person.
Speaker 7 (03:15):
John'm a downd or a fellow.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Just wants you to know that. As a matter of fact,
today I got out the old hammock, went out, climbed
in and laid there for a couple hours sipping a lemonade.
And then I went back and my two butlers were
getting tired holding.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Up the hammock. People would tell me that, you know,
mark Johnny Carson, he would be out in public and
people would literally grab him by the arm because he
was on five nights a week and say, Johnny, come
meet my husband, come meet whoever, and the man just
could not get any rest.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
I think you have to give up a certain amount
of your freedom, of your privacy in this business. It's
a funny thing. It's a paradox when you're first starting.
That's what you want. You want to be well known,
you want to be successful. And part of being successful,
I suppose in the entertainment business is being recognized and
people coming up to you. And then after a while
you realize that you pay a certain amount for that,
(04:08):
especially with children, if you have kids and you go someplace.
I remember once we went to ice skating at a
Rockefeller Center, and I thought, you that would be fun.
Turned out that it wasn't fun at all.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Johnny started performing magic when he was fourteen years old
in Nebraska, and he really did struggle for compliments from
his mother.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
No matter how important you think you are or how
much pressure you get, mothers especially are always able to
kind of level it real good. Remember I got the
Governor's Award in the Television Academy in nineteen eighty and
I called my mother and I said, Mom, they're giving
me the Governor's Award. You know it's for your body
of work in the television industry. And my mother said,
(04:46):
I guess they know what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Back then, in the Midwest, at least, it was very
common for parents to compliment their kids to their friends
or family, but they didn't want to give their kids
swelled heads. They set her egos.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Thank you, you really should stop applauding because you'll give
me a big head. And no, then my crown won't
fit anymore.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So a lot of times they just would not praise
their kids.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
You're always raised as a kid. You know that she
should be modest, But unfortunately, in the entertainment business, that
does not work if you don't have a certain amount
of ego. Now that doesn't mean cock sure iness. It
means a confidence in your own ability that I know
what I do, I do it well, and when I
walk in front of an audience, I know that I
am good. If you don't have that attitude, shouldn't be
(05:35):
out there.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Johnny started doing magic, and that was the one thing
that he felt his mom was proud of. You would
entertain Ruth Cars and his mom her clubs and her
groups and he said it felt amazing to make my
mother proud. Because Johnny Carson had a brother, Dick, and
made a sister, Catherine, and two of Johnny Carson's wives
said that Ruth Carson did not like boys. It was
(05:58):
very clear that she loved Catherine more than Dick and Johnny.
And Johnny throughout those teen years doing magic and even
doing the Tonight Show, part of the reason that really
drove him was to get the compliments and try to
find love from his mother.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I took up magic when I was young, Yeah, because
I was somewhat shy and within myself. I thought her
that would be a good way to go to parties.
When I read those ads, you know, be the life
of the party and get girls. Mainly I got it.
I did it to get girls. Neither one worked well,
but lots of people do that. They'd like to get
up and perform. You can be the center of attention
without being yourself.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
His mother would watch the Tonight Show every single night.
She would compliment him again in interviews, but never to
his face. But the myth became that she said that
she did not find her son funny, which was not true.
But Johnny was very hurt that that was the myth
that was put out there that she did not find
(06:52):
her son funny.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
And you've been listening to Mark Malkoff his book In
Love with Johnny Carson, One obsessive fans journey to find
the genie behind the legend. And we're learning a lot
about what made Carson tick that infamous interview with Rohana
Barrett and I remember it because she kept pressing him.
And we learn a lot about his mother and his
Midwest upbringing and that humility and that basic kindness that
(07:17):
he exhibited on that set for Americans to listen to
when we come back, more of the story of America's
Late Night King, Johnny Carson. Here on our American Stories.
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
and all of our history stories are brought to us
(07:38):
by our generous sponsors, including Hillsdale College, where students go
to learn all the things that are beautiful in life
and all the things that matter in life. If you
can't get to Hillsdale, Hillsdale will come to you with
their free and terrific online courses. Go to Hillsdale dot edu.
That's Hillsdale dot.
Speaker 8 (07:58):
Eden here.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And we continue with our American stories and the story
of Johnny Carson as told by author Mark Malkoff. Let's
pick up where we last left off.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
After a few years of Johnny doing the Tonight Show,
he became responsible for twenty five percent of all of
NBC's profits. He was the biggest star in television. And
this is somebody who turned down the job numerous times.
The gentleman who hosted the Tonight Show previously before him
was Jack part and Jack Parter was known for being controversial,
for being very weepy on camera, just very emotional, and
(08:46):
Johnny and everyone else in the entertainment said, nobody can
replace this guy. And it was Johnny's wife, Joanne who
was the one that orchestrated everything behind the scenes. One
of Johnny's producers, Peter Lesally, told me Johnny had no
idea that his wife was running the show behind the scenes.
She was hiring producers for the Tonight Show firing and
she is the one behind Johnny's back. They got two
(09:07):
NBC executives to show up to a Friars Club Rose
where Johnny was performing and orchestrated him being offered the
Tonight Show. He turned it down and Joann to him
out to dinner to a restaurant in New York City,
Danny's Hideaway, and she said, I know you can do this, Johnny,
I know you can do this. And he said, nobody
knows this, but the game show that I host, Who
Do You Trust, which was on ABC. Every ad libit
(09:29):
was written for me. Every look to the camera when
I copyed my mentor Jack Benny, that was written.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Now.
Speaker 7 (09:36):
You may not you know, you may not realize this,
but every move you make, your delivery, every little inflection
that you have is exactly the way I work. And
I don't think it's fair.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
And he said, I don't think I can do an
hour and forty five minutes, and she said, won't work
as a team. He finally said yes. And for two
years the rumors were that Jack Parr and Murk Griffin
was going to replace Johnny. Newspapers and even viewers would
write end and said, we missed Jack Parr. Where's the controversy?
And Johnny said, I am going to do an entertainment show.
(10:13):
People at eleven thirty eleven o'clock are going to sleep
with me. They want an entertainment show. And he never
deviated the Jack Parr program was quite controversial. Why did
you change the format? What was your reason for that?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I think shows that have gone in just for controversy.
To bring on the two people with opposing views is
very easy night after night. It's easier to do that
kind of a show than it is to get last.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
And after about two years people started to catch on,
and before he knew it, two years in he breaks
Judy Garland's night club record in Las Vegas the Sahhara
Hotel and is one of the highest paid performers in
Las Vegas. Johnny is booking every big star on the
Tonight Show. He's dominating popular culture. He in the late sixties,
(11:00):
launches a men's line of clothing, setting records in the
millions for American men that want to look and dress
like Johnny Carson.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
I simply believe when a man is well dressed, you
just aren't aware of his clothes. I wear the suit,
it doesn't wear me. If you agree with this philosophy,
I'd like you to take a look at the totally
coordinated Johnny Carson collection for spring.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
He starts wearing turtlenecks on the air. Suddenly everybody in
popular culture is wearing turtlenecks because of this man, Johnny said,
especially in the sixties, that all he would thick about
is the show, and that was one of his flaws,
was being overly competitive. In nineteen seventy one, he was
living at the un Plaza Bilited. His neighbors were Robert F.
(11:47):
Kennedy and Truman Capoti and Johnny at eleven thirty in
nineteen seventy one had four TVs right next to each
other in his home. At eleven thirty, he'd be watching
himself the Dick Habot Show, David Frost's TV show, and
then I believe it was either merv Griffin or Joey Bishop.
There was never a more competitive individual in the history
of the medium. He was torn in nineteen seventy the
(12:10):
year before because he has all this competition. Dick Havevitz
ten years younger than him. This other gentleman, David Frost,
was fourteen years younger than him, and his girlfriend at
the time, who became his third wife, convinced him to
stop dyeing his hair so he was looking older. And
his mom, Ruth, who he revered, said you are looking
so old, and Johnny didn't know what to do so,
(12:31):
he faked hepatitis in nineteen seventy, told everyone that he
had hepatitis, had to go to the hospital when he
was actually getting eye cosmetic surgery from the most famous
plastic surgeon in Manhattan, doctor Tom Reese, and Johnny was
horrified when he learned that hepatitis is contagious. So everybody
at NBC on the staff had to get a painful
(12:54):
Gamma Goblin shot. Over two hundred people, guests like Tony
Randall and all these famous people that had been on
the show owned the last couple of weeks had to
come in and get shots. But then you had people
that weren't even around Carson, that were in NBC Vice
president's employees, that weren't even around Carson, that wanted the
shots so they could brag to their friends that the
most famous man in America that they had proximity next
(13:14):
to him. So they were getting shots, and it became
this right of passage that they could brag to their friends,
you know, I have this shot because I know Johnny Carson.
But everyone did want to know Johnny and watching him,
people really felt that they know him. They would write
Johnny letters, they would call up the show and ask
to talk to him. They really, during very dark times,
(13:34):
thought of him as a friend. Come home at night,
turn on the TV, you just want to have a laugh.
He never brought you down to oh he is what's
going on? All my life was horrible.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
He always elevated everybody up, and I think that was
the key you felt good after watching the show.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
In nineteen sixty eight. You have Martin Luther King who
was assassinated. You have Johnny's neighbor Robert F. Kennedy, who
was good friends with Johnny who was assassinated, who would
come to Johnny's all this and they would they would
spend time together, and you have this really dark time
with Vietnam and Johnny every single night was the one
thing that was consistent. After the news, the depressing news,
(14:11):
you could escape with Johnny. You never knew Johnny's politics.
Speaker 7 (14:14):
Johnny would come out and equally make fun of everybody
and never questioned anybody's patriotism.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
It was always about what they said or did.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Do you get sensitive about the fact that people say
he'll never take a serious controversy. Well, I have an
answer to that. I said, no. Tell me the last
time that Jack Benny red Skelton, Benny comedian used his
show to do serious issues.
Speaker 7 (14:40):
That's not what I'm there for. Can't they see that?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
But you and I do.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
They think that just because you have it tonight's show,
that you must deal in serious issues. That's a danger.
It's a real danger. Once you start that, you start
to forget that self important feeling. That's what you say
has great import And you know, strangely enough, you could
use that show as a form, you could sway people,
and I don't think you should as an entertainer.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
In fact, in thirty years, you'd be hard pressed to
guess who Johnny ever voted for.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
And that's the way it should be.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Why alien eight half your audience every presidential administration? They
thought that Johnny was biased against them. Jimmy Carter's mom
did not like Johnny's jokes and was upset until she
finally went on the show and met him and thought
he was very charming and changed his opinion. Nancy Reagan
called the show twice when Ronald Reagan was president. The
(15:32):
first time she was upset. She said, my husband, Ronnie
does not dye his hair. So Johnny went on the
next night and said I just want to let everyone
know Ronald Reagan, our president, does not dye his hair,
but he does bleach his face.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I mean that's not how do you balance the budget? Well,
balancing the budget is like protecting You don't spend more
than you take in, right, It's like protecting your virtue.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
You have to learn to say no.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
So Johnny when he was seventeen, after he graduated High
scho he hitchhiked to Los Angeles. The first thing he
did was by a map where all the famous stars lived,
and he went to Jack Benny's house. Jack Benny was
his heros comedian, and waited for Jack Benny to come
out of his house, which he didn't do. And then
Johnny went to the Navy. He had enlisted, but he
wasn't officially a member of the Navy. So he bought
a uniform and he dressed up, and he snuck into
(16:19):
the USO shows and got to see orson Wells do Magic.
He danced with Marlene and at Dietrich he saw Rita
Hayworth and he was promptly arrested and charged. I think
he had to pay fifty dollars bond. He had his
aunt and uncle bail him out, but he was impersonated
an officer.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And you've been listening to Mark Malkoff and he's the
author of In Love with Johnny Carson, One obsessive fans
journey to find the genius behind the legend, and we're
doing just that. He's explaining and telling the story of
so much of what made Carson Carson from his Midwest
upbringing to all that time spent in magic and being
(16:56):
a game show host in a context where he's provided
almost every cute joke, even mannerism to his wife pushing him,
driving him to this show that would be his own,
that would change how late night was done. More laughs,
more entertainment, and my goodness, we learn about Carson's competitive streak,
(17:19):
watching all three hosts at night who were competing against
him at eleven thirty rather than go out and have
a drink or just go to sleep, and of course,
in the end, his deep aversion to getting into the
politics of the day. And if you could have avoided
it in nineteen sixty eight, you could have avoided it
at anytime in American history. The story of the late
(17:43):
night King of American television, Johnny Carson, continues here on
our American stories, and we continue with our American stories
(18:10):
and with author Mark Malkoff story of Johnny Carson, his
life story continues. Let's pick up when we last left off.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Johnny went into the Navy. He was there for a
few years, and after he graduates college, he's a big
star in Omaha. He's doing radio. Everything's good, and he
could have stayed there forever and been a star, but
he had greater ambition and he went out to Los
Angeles and he did a local show. His goal with
was one year to have his own show like he
did in Omaha. And he did a show called Carson
(18:42):
Cellar and it was a big hit. And one day
a famous comedian, Red Skelton had hurt himself in rehearsal
and they had less than an hour that they were
going to be doing the show live nationally from CBS,
and read as he was being put in the ambulance
said called that Johnny Carson, kid, he can do this.
So Johnny Carson in his Woodland Hills, California, at home,
(19:05):
he was in his grudge when he got the cup.
We need you here. In less than an hour, Johnny
Carson saved the day. He had the ten thousand hours
of practice. He had been doing this since he was
fourteen years old, doing magic, doing radio, doing comedy. He
was prepared. It was the biggest break of his life.
Speaker 7 (19:24):
All Red Skelton Redoo, my name's gottic guys in the
afternoon of a dress rehearsal it was just about on an
hour and a half ago, read the slip during one
of the sketches and injured himself. And the injury is not.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Really too serious, but the Red's doctor advised him that
it wouldn't be too best to do the show today. Personally,
I think Red's doctors should do the show.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
You taught me a lot. I stole a lot from you.
Speaker 7 (19:53):
No, yeah, oh yes I did.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
No.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
No, it's like the students. They say, Johnny was with
you at one time. You helped him gets I said, no,
nobody helps you get started. If you've got talent, think
and put you behind a brick wall, you'll come through,
you know.
Speaker 9 (20:06):
So that's what you had.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
The next day it was national news that the local
boy made good nationally and he got his own national
TV show called The Johnny Carson Show on CPS, and
he was on his way.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Look Johnny Carson show story n Carson.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
The Johnny Carson showed, Johnny would say, was one of
the biggest failures. There were too many cooks in the kitchen.
They wouldn't let him do his thing, he said. And
it didn't last and he was out of work. Johnny
went to Bakersfield, California to try to break in his
own comedy act is a nightclub act. He was running
out of money, he had young kids, and he was panicking.
(20:51):
Very few people went to Bakersfield. He would make jokes
at Bakerfield's expense for years because he was so scarred
from this nightclub act that failed. His agents didn't come
to see him. They sent two junior agents who didn't
even stick around afterwards. Johnny didn't know what he was
going to do until somebody gave him an audition for
a game show in New York called Who Do You Trust?
On ABC?
Speaker 7 (21:13):
Who Do You Trust?
Speaker 9 (21:15):
Here's the star of our show, Johnny what.
Speaker 7 (21:21):
Yah?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Who do you Trust? We have another time to break
on the show.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Johnny got the job. He was so broke he had
to borrow two thousand dollars from his dad in Nebraska
to move his family to New York and Johnny became
a huge star. He was a game show host where
he hired a man named Ed McMahon who would go
on to be his announcer on the Tonight Show for
thirty years. And on that game show his star was rising.
(21:46):
And that is when Jack Parr, who was hosting the
Tonight Show, was leaving, and Jack said, there's only one
person that I think can replace me, and his name
is Johnny Carson, and Johnny got the Tonight Show after that.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
It is no great sick and I'm sure ABC won't
mind if I mention this. Now, what can they do
to me if I do.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
Fire me today?
Speaker 3 (22:07):
But I go over to on the Tonight Show on
NBC starting October the first as the host of that show,
and it goes with me as the announcer on the show,
so I.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Ed McMahon and Johnny on Who Do You Trust were
very good friends. They would go next door to Sartay's
and have drinks between tapings. But when Johnny got this
Tonight Show, he didn't want to be associated with Who
Do You Trust? So he was going to bring in
a different announcer, his friend Hank Simms. Johnny flew out
to California and begging Hank to come with him, and
he wouldn't come. So one night Ed McMahon took Johnny
(22:39):
Carson and the wives out to a restaurant to Danny's hideaway,
and Ed McMahon got on his hands and knees, tears
down his face begging Johnny, you have to take me
King of Prussia. I just bought a new home. I
can't pay for the doorknobs. You have to take me, please,
And Johnny got embarrassed and said, fine, okay, I'll take you.
Just stop crying. Ed made the best decision of his
(23:01):
life thirty years of employment. Because of that act, Ed
and Johnny needed each other. There were times where Ed
overstepped and Johnny was very upset, but overall Ed was very,
very good at what he did. There were a lot
of jokes that were manufactured about Ed being the big drinker.
Truth be told, he was only really drunk once on
(23:24):
the show. The real person that had the alcohol issue
was Johnny Carson. Johnny didn't hide it. He would talk
on the Tonight Show that he struggled with alcohol. I
think that's one of the reasons why people really related
to him because he was himself up there.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
It was real.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Everything he said was real.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Whether he was talking about divorces or drinking or whatever
it might be, it really happened to him, and I
thought that was really cool.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
He would talk about his flaws. He was overly competitive.
He was so competitive it would affect his family life.
But the drinking, he would say, he'd be okay, he'd
be fine, and then he had one more drink and
he would turn into it til the and he would
want to fight everyone.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I don't have my alcohol well at all. No, I
really don't, oh ed, And I've had some wonderful times
in the past. October first, nineteen sixty two is the
day I'll always remember. I was thirty six years old
taking my place as host of America's most popular late
night program, The Tonight Show.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
So as we're walking down, I said, how do you
see my role down here tonight? And he said, Ed,
I don't even know how I see my own role.
Let's just go down and entertain the hell out of them.
Speaker 8 (24:33):
Two one music take.
Speaker 9 (24:39):
From New York The Night Show Starry Johnny Darton, Johnny's
guest Tonight or John Cruft, Rondy Valley Tony Bennet, val Rock,
My Pading, Singers, Hit Joe Want, the NBAC office red Me,
I'm any right, probably wait six months the same.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
In New York. It was very unique. The guests all
had to come in person for their pre interviews because
it didn't matter who you were, you would have to
come into New York days prior to sit down with
the talent coordinator and come up with interesting stories. For Johnny,
it was an entertainment show. It wasn't about education, it
was about entertaining America, and they would work with each
(25:21):
other to get the most entertaining stories. Kerry Lewis one
time said that he would put Johnny up there with Chaplin.
He was that funny and that good at what he
did with comedy. Johnny struggled with competition. There was nobody
more competitive and something was going to suffer, and that,
unfortunately were his marriages and his kids. The Carson did regret,
(25:44):
and he would tell people that he wished he was
a better father. He just didn't think that he could
make both work. Johnny was an excellent stepfather to his
third wife, Joanna. Had a son, Ricky, who was a teenager,
and that is when Johnny shined as a father, but
definitely that was regret he had up until he died
that he wished he was a better father.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And you've been listening to author Mark Malkoff his book
In Love with Johnny Carson, one obsessive fans journey to
find the genius behind the legend, is filled filled with
terrific stories in which we learn what made this man tick,
this legend tick, and my goodness, it's in the end
his deeply competitive nature, wanting to, as we heard earlier,
(26:27):
bust through that wall and get to where he wanted
to be, which is he wanted to be a star period.
And his big break came to the game show of
all things, Who Do You Trust? And there was Ed
McMahon who would be by Carson's side.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
For thirty years.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Then he gets that call that changes his life, and
that's to replace Jack Parr, then the King of Late Night,
and even Parr himself understood that Carson may may have
been the only person who could have replaced him. And
we learn a bit about what made Carson so great.
Wasn't just the prep, it wasn't just the experience, It
(27:07):
wasn't just his drive to entertain and to be number one,
But it was him opening up about his real life,
his flaws, his drinking, his divorces. When we come back
more of the story of Johnny Carson, America's Late Night King.
Here on our American Stories. And we continue with our
(27:38):
American stories and the story of Johnny Carson, America's Late
Night King. Let's pick up where we last left off.
Here's author Mark Malcoff.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
The only reason Saturday Night Live exists is because of
Johnny Carson. In nineteen seventy four, Johnny decided he did
not want reruns up The Tonight Show to be played
on Saturday nights. Two young men in their twenties named
Lauren Michaels and Dick ever Sall sat down with Johnny
Carson and Johnny's office and they proposed doing a show
(28:11):
on NBC, a variety sketch comedy show. Johnny just wanted
to make sure that it had nothing to do with
his show, that it wasn't going to be a copy
of The Tonight Show, and Johnny gave them the blessing
and October of nineteen seventy five, Saturday Night Live was
born only because of Johnny Carson's influence Carson never imagined
that that would be the show that played a huge
(28:31):
role in Johnny deciding to retire. Johnny's hero comedically was
Jack Benny. He loved Bob Hope as well, but he'd
thought that both of them stayed around way too long,
and he perceived that their best work was done when
they were much younger. Johnny was in his sixties and
Saturday Night Live started to do sketches making fun of him.
(28:51):
He thought they were mean spirited. Dana Carvey would play
Johnny Carson. They were written by Robert Smigel, and every
time the sketches were about to happen, somebody at NBC
would tell Johnny, we don't know if it's going to
get to air, but it's going to be at the
dress rehearsal. At least they're gonna do another one of
those sketches. And Johnny said, I don't find them funny.
They can do whatever they want. We make fun of
(29:13):
people on this show. I just don't understand it. My
idea was, Johnny has this thing that no one can touch.
Maybe I can have the kids of that demographic. Maybe
I can have the children of Johnny's audience. That's the
key don't compete, find what's uniquely yours. And they did
a sketch called Carcinio, which was a takeoff of our
(29:34):
Sinio Hall show. And then Johnny Carson dressing like Oursineo
with spiked hair and wearing young person's clothes like our Sineo.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
My first guest tonight. You all know he plays normal
on the number one show on television.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Cheers.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Let's churn it up for mister George Winch.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Is this dope? Is this dope?
Speaker 4 (30:00):
Jeff?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Look at this?
Speaker 3 (30:02):
This is dope stuff right here, right now?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
What George.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Concerned about you?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
What are you talking?
Speaker 5 (30:09):
Well?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
A drastic personality change like this, can you know, really
be very dangerous?
Speaker 9 (30:15):
Dangerous?
Speaker 4 (30:15):
I did not know that.
Speaker 8 (30:19):
You did you know that?
Speaker 3 (30:20):
End? Yes?
Speaker 8 (30:24):
I shouldn't feel embarrassed, Johnny.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I mean this, this is rather common among people your age.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It's okay.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Johnny just really did not want to be perceived as
somebody that was old hat and just making references from
decades ago and just not current. So Johnny decided in
nineteen ninety one that he would stand on stage at
the NBC Affiliates Meeting, which was an annual event at
Carnegie Hall, and shock NBC and the country by saying,
(30:51):
I am going to be leaving the Tonight Show one
year from today. Nobody had any idea that this was
going to happen. Johnny Is last year on the show
was the biggest celebration of Late Night in the history
of the medium. Everybody who had been made on that
show wanted to come back and thank him. Everybody from
(31:11):
Jerry Seinfeld coming on and saying nobody knows what the
show means to a comedian, to Bette Midler being Johnny's
final guest and singing to him.
Speaker 8 (31:21):
For years for the last fologis for the class that
you show.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
And winning an Emmy for that performance, and just the
genuine emotion of Carson with tears in his eyes and
Miss Midler running off stage because she was sobbing and crying.
It was television history that Johnny was leaving the show.
He was saying goodbye, and America's heartbroken. But sure enough,
Johnny went to NBC Birdbank for the final time, do
(32:00):
the Tonight Show. May twenty second, nineteen ninety two. Johnny
at the Barry and told America.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
And so it has come to this, and one of
the lucky people in the world. I found something I
always wanted to do, and I have enjoyed every single
minute of it. I want to thank the gentleman who
shared this stage with me for thirty years, mister Ed McMahon,
Mister got seven sinners. Use people watching. I can only
(32:33):
tell you that it has been an honor and a
privilege to come into your homes all these years and
entertain you. And I hope and I find something that
I want to do and I think you will like
and come back that you'll be as gracious inviting me
into your home as you have been. I bet you
a very heartfelt good night.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
And his one of his favorite songs, I'll be seeing
you have played with the band and bad members had
tears in their eyes. Carson did too. There were people
on staff that were convinced Carson would not be emotional,
but Johnny just to he could feel the love from
those four hundred and sixty five people in the audience
and the viewers that had just I mean, Johnny had
driven to work. He'd been up since three thirty am
(33:13):
because he was so from the night before with Bett
Miller was so wound up and just could not believe
that that actually happened. He was driving to work and
there would be banners on the highway We're gonna miss you, Johnny,
Goodbye Johnny. Every camera crew outside NBC Burbank. It became
a circus, people camping out overnight for tickets.
Speaker 5 (33:30):
You know, for my entire career, I've heard comedians in
bars debate over who do you think is going to
get the Tonight Show after Johnny leaves. What nobody realized
is that when you left, you were going to pack
it up and take it with you, which is what
he did because that show never existed again. There never
(33:53):
was a Tonight Show.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
It was Carson and he was saying goodbye to America.
So he walks off the stage. He gets with his
wife and they get in the limousine, which drives a
minute to an NBC Telepad helicopter that's waiting for him.
The first time ever, Johnny takes a helicopter back to
his home in Malibu because he's going to have a
party for his staff, and he has the last Brand
(34:15):
orchestra playing on his tennis court across the street. He
set that up where they had music and Johnny, with
all the pressure off, finally everyone that was coming, he
would greet them. He wanted to be there before everyone
to greet them and give people hugs. And there were
people on the show that had never seen Johnny that
relax because every single show day was game day, and
you weren't going to have all your energy and concentration
(34:37):
on the show. But suddenly there was no more pressure.
And it was this man who they had been employed
with for thirty years, who they looked up to, who
they worshiped, who they just wanted to be excellent, because
Johnny had demanded excellent of himself, but they just wanted
to please him. And just the fact that this was ending,
it was some of the time the most special years
of their life, and they got to thank the man
and just to spend that time with him. And then
(35:00):
for two years after that would to make appearances. People
thought they would never see him again. But for two
years Johnny after retirement, he did the Simpsons, He made
a cameo in Letterman, he did the Bob Hope ninetieth Birthday,
the American Teacher Awards. He goes to the White House
and gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom from George Herbert
Walker Bush, one.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Of America's greatest television personalities.
Speaker 9 (35:21):
Johnny Carson left the Nebraska Planes to reside over late
night TV for almost thirty years. The United States Honors
Johnny Carson, who personifies the hard and humor of.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
America, does the Kennedy Center Honors, so he makes appearances,
but in May of ninety four, he makes his final
appearance when he makes a cameo in Dave Letterman Show
when Dave is in Los Angeles at CBS Television City.
And after that we never got to see Johnny again.
He put out clips of the show on VHS and me.
(35:50):
Mark Malcoff is a teenager when it was time for
the holidays and wanted a president. I didn't want Nintendo,
I didn't want football cards. I didn't want anything that
people my age typically wanted. I wanted the Johnny Carson
VHS box set. And when I got it at this
beautiful Hirschfeld print of Johnny Carson with a FA similar autograph,
(36:11):
and I wore those VHS tapes out. Johnny personally picked
his favorite moments from the show with Comedians with Animals
with Guests with sketches. Johnny has been off the air
now for over three decades. He's been gone from the
earth for twenty years. Johnny would recently would have turned
one hundred years old. He is missed by America to
(36:33):
this day, but his work lives on and millions of
people still watch the clips that are just as funny
as they were decades previously in younger generations constantly because
of YouTube or finding what made Johnny special and made
him the king of Late Night And.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
A terrific job on the production, editing and storytelling by
our own Greg Hengler, and a special thanks to Mark Melkoff.
His book In Love with Johnny Carson, One obsessive fans
journey to fight and the genius behind the legend is
available wherever you buy your books. Again, that's In Love
with Johnny Carson. Get this book. You won't put it down.
(37:10):
And my goodness, what a story he told us about
Johnny understanding that well, he didn't want to go out
past his prime, and he'd worried that that's what Jack
Benny and Bob Hope had done. He admired both of
those men. In the end, watches comedy carefully, and watch
Jack Benny and particularly careful, and you learn so much
about Carson's great talent, which is the reaction. He's just
(37:34):
so present, his ability to react to his guests as
good as we've ever seen in the history of television.
And of course then came that shocker in nineteen ninety one.
Johnny just decided to end things, and it was so smart.
He gave it one year, not a second farewell, not
a third year, farewell one and that final performance I
(37:55):
know I cried. Thirty years later, and twenty years after
his death, Carson's work still on YouTube, entertaining us and
in the end, relieving us of some of life's daily
problems and exigencies. The story of Johnny Carson, America's Late
Night King here on our American Stories
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
the show where America is the star and the American
people coming to you from the city where the West begins,
Fort Worth, Texas. Johnny Carson aficionado Mark Malcoff has amassed
more Carson stories from original sources than anyone in entertainment history.
(00:31):
And now in his book In Love with Johnny Carson,
he sets the record straight of Carson's life, career, legacy,
and character. Let's take a listen, and now, ladies and gentlemen, he.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Johnny Johnny Carson, for thirty years was the most famous
man in America, maybe after the President, certainly the most recognizable.
He dominated popular American culture for decades. People would tune
in to get Carson's take on what was going on
in the day. I do not know any better time
(01:09):
capsule of thirty years from nineteen sixty two to nineteen
ninety two, on what the fashion was, the politics, what
was socially acceptable? Who was famous in everything from athletics
to fashion to sports. This is a man who if
he set a book on air, it could be a
bestseller the next day. He mattered to people. Johnny Carson
(01:32):
grew up in Nebraska, and he was this Midwestern man
and even though he was one of the highest paid
people in Hollywood, the Nebraska never left him. He was
a very polite Midwest gentleman. And it showed I grew
up in.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
The Midwest kind of a normal I guess what you'd
call a normal upbringing, you know, the part of the country.
My folks were supporting and what I wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Did you always know what you wanted to do?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Oh yeah, at the very beginning? Oh sure?
Speaker 5 (01:58):
How old?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Want used to have been a mine? Twelve thirteen years old,
and I knew I wanted to entertain.
Speaker 6 (02:03):
You liked the attention?
Speaker 7 (02:04):
Oh sure? But why why you? I mean why at
age twelve or thirteen?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Because I was at a play or something and I
got up and I did something and people laughed, and
all of a sudden, you say, hey, that sounds pretty good.
So it makes you the center of attention.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Yes, but why did you want to do attention?
Speaker 7 (02:24):
Why did you want.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Why did I want the attention? Because I was shy?
Speaker 7 (02:29):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Because I was shy. Oh that sounds like an ambivalence right. No,
on stage, you see, when you're on stage in front
of an audience, you are kind of in control. When
you're off of the stage or in a situation where
a lot of people, you're not in control. And I
felt awkward. So I went into show business thinking it
would give me a little more I could overcome that shyness.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Where do you think the shyness emanated from.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I bought it in Chicago.
Speaker 6 (02:51):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
The one thing talking about Johnny Carson, the most successful
late night host in the history of the medium consistently
that people would tell me is that the people that
knew him very well that he was the same Johnny
on and off camera, which was very surprising because the
media made him out to be very cold and aloof
and Johnny Carson was this very funny, polite person.
Speaker 7 (03:15):
John'm a downd or a fellow.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Just wants you to know that. As a matter of fact,
today I got out the old hammock, went out, climbed
in and laid there for a couple hours sipping a lemonade.
And then I went back and my two butlers were
getting tired holding.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Up the hammock. People would tell me that, you know,
mark Johnny Carson, he would be out in public and
people would literally grab him by the arm because he
was on five nights a week and say, Johnny, come
meet my husband, come meet whoever, and the man just
could not get any rest.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
I think you have to give up a certain amount
of your freedom, of your privacy in this business. It's
a funny thing. It's a paradox when you're first starting.
That's what you want. You want to be well known,
you want to be successful. And part of being successful,
I suppose in the entertainment business is being recognized and
people coming up to you. And then after a while
you realize that you pay a certain amount for that,
(04:08):
especially with children, if you have kids and you go someplace.
I remember once we went to ice skating at a
Rockefeller Center, and I thought, you that would be fun.
Turned out that it wasn't fun at all.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Johnny started performing magic when he was fourteen years old
in Nebraska, and he really did struggle for compliments from
his mother.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
No matter how important you think you are or how
much pressure you get, mothers especially are always able to
kind of level it real good. Remember I got the
Governor's Award in the Television Academy in nineteen eighty and
I called my mother and I said, Mom, they're giving
me the Governor's Award. You know it's for your body
of work in the television industry. And my mother said,
(04:46):
I guess they know what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Back then, in the Midwest, at least, it was very
common for parents to compliment their kids to their friends
or family, but they didn't want to give their kids
swelled heads. They set her egos.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Thank you, you really should stop applauding because you'll give
me a big head. And no, then my crown won't
fit anymore.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So a lot of times they just would not praise
their kids.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
You're always raised as a kid. You know that she
should be modest, But unfortunately, in the entertainment business, that
does not work if you don't have a certain amount
of ego. Now that doesn't mean cock sure iness. It
means a confidence in your own ability that I know
what I do, I do it well, and when I
walk in front of an audience, I know that I
am good. If you don't have that attitude, shouldn't be
(05:35):
out there.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Johnny started doing magic, and that was the one thing
that he felt his mom was proud of. You would
entertain Ruth Cars and his mom her clubs and her
groups and he said it felt amazing to make my
mother proud. Because Johnny Carson had a brother, Dick, and
made a sister, Catherine, and two of Johnny Carson's wives
said that Ruth Carson did not like boys. It was
(05:58):
very clear that she loved Catherine more than Dick and Johnny.
And Johnny throughout those teen years doing magic and even
doing the Tonight Show, part of the reason that really
drove him was to get the compliments and try to
find love from his mother.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I took up magic when I was young, Yeah, because
I was somewhat shy and within myself. I thought her
that would be a good way to go to parties.
When I read those ads, you know, be the life
of the party and get girls. Mainly I got it.
I did it to get girls. Neither one worked well,
but lots of people do that. They'd like to get
up and perform. You can be the center of attention
without being yourself.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
His mother would watch the Tonight Show every single night.
She would compliment him again in interviews, but never to
his face. But the myth became that she said that
she did not find her son funny, which was not true.
But Johnny was very hurt that that was the myth
that was put out there that she did not find
(06:52):
her son funny.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
And you've been listening to Mark Malkoff his book In
Love with Johnny Carson, One obsessive fans journey to find
the genie behind the legend. And we're learning a lot
about what made Carson tick that infamous interview with Rohana
Barrett and I remember it because she kept pressing him.
And we learn a lot about his mother and his
Midwest upbringing and that humility and that basic kindness that
(07:17):
he exhibited on that set for Americans to listen to
when we come back, more of the story of America's
Late Night King, Johnny Carson. Here on our American Stories.
This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
and all of our history stories are brought to us
(07:38):
by our generous sponsors, including Hillsdale College, where students go
to learn all the things that are beautiful in life
and all the things that matter in life. If you
can't get to Hillsdale, Hillsdale will come to you with
their free and terrific online courses. Go to Hillsdale dot edu.
That's Hillsdale dot.
Speaker 8 (07:58):
Eden here.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And we continue with our American stories and the story
of Johnny Carson as told by author Mark Malkoff. Let's
pick up where we last left off.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
After a few years of Johnny doing the Tonight Show,
he became responsible for twenty five percent of all of
NBC's profits. He was the biggest star in television. And
this is somebody who turned down the job numerous times.
The gentleman who hosted the Tonight Show previously before him
was Jack part and Jack Parter was known for being controversial,
for being very weepy on camera, just very emotional, and
(08:46):
Johnny and everyone else in the entertainment said, nobody can
replace this guy. And it was Johnny's wife, Joanne who
was the one that orchestrated everything behind the scenes. One
of Johnny's producers, Peter Lesally, told me Johnny had no
idea that his wife was running the show behind the scenes.
She was hiring producers for the Tonight Show firing and
she is the one behind Johnny's back. They got two
(09:07):
NBC executives to show up to a Friars Club Rose
where Johnny was performing and orchestrated him being offered the
Tonight Show. He turned it down and Joann to him
out to dinner to a restaurant in New York City,
Danny's Hideaway, and she said, I know you can do this, Johnny,
I know you can do this. And he said, nobody
knows this, but the game show that I host, Who
Do You Trust, which was on ABC. Every ad libit
(09:29):
was written for me. Every look to the camera when
I copyed my mentor Jack Benny, that was written.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Now.
Speaker 7 (09:36):
You may not you know, you may not realize this,
but every move you make, your delivery, every little inflection
that you have is exactly the way I work. And
I don't think it's fair.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
And he said, I don't think I can do an
hour and forty five minutes, and she said, won't work
as a team. He finally said yes. And for two
years the rumors were that Jack Parr and Murk Griffin
was going to replace Johnny. Newspapers and even viewers would
write end and said, we missed Jack Parr. Where's the controversy?
And Johnny said, I am going to do an entertainment show.
(10:13):
People at eleven thirty eleven o'clock are going to sleep
with me. They want an entertainment show. And he never
deviated the Jack Parr program was quite controversial. Why did
you change the format? What was your reason for that?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I think shows that have gone in just for controversy.
To bring on the two people with opposing views is
very easy night after night. It's easier to do that
kind of a show than it is to get last.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
And after about two years people started to catch on,
and before he knew it, two years in he breaks
Judy Garland's night club record in Las Vegas the Sahhara
Hotel and is one of the highest paid performers in
Las Vegas. Johnny is booking every big star on the
Tonight Show. He's dominating popular culture. He in the late sixties,
(11:00):
launches a men's line of clothing, setting records in the
millions for American men that want to look and dress
like Johnny Carson.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
I simply believe when a man is well dressed, you
just aren't aware of his clothes. I wear the suit,
it doesn't wear me. If you agree with this philosophy,
I'd like you to take a look at the totally
coordinated Johnny Carson collection for spring.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
He starts wearing turtlenecks on the air. Suddenly everybody in
popular culture is wearing turtlenecks because of this man, Johnny said,
especially in the sixties, that all he would thick about
is the show, and that was one of his flaws,
was being overly competitive. In nineteen seventy one, he was
living at the un Plaza Bilited. His neighbors were Robert F.
(11:47):
Kennedy and Truman Capoti and Johnny at eleven thirty in
nineteen seventy one had four TVs right next to each
other in his home. At eleven thirty, he'd be watching
himself the Dick Habot Show, David Frost's TV show, and
then I believe it was either merv Griffin or Joey Bishop.
There was never a more competitive individual in the history
of the medium. He was torn in nineteen seventy the
(12:10):
year before because he has all this competition. Dick Havevitz
ten years younger than him. This other gentleman, David Frost,
was fourteen years younger than him, and his girlfriend at
the time, who became his third wife, convinced him to
stop dyeing his hair so he was looking older. And
his mom, Ruth, who he revered, said you are looking
so old, and Johnny didn't know what to do so,
(12:31):
he faked hepatitis in nineteen seventy, told everyone that he
had hepatitis, had to go to the hospital when he
was actually getting eye cosmetic surgery from the most famous
plastic surgeon in Manhattan, doctor Tom Reese, and Johnny was
horrified when he learned that hepatitis is contagious. So everybody
at NBC on the staff had to get a painful
(12:54):
Gamma Goblin shot. Over two hundred people, guests like Tony
Randall and all these famous people that had been on
the show owned the last couple of weeks had to
come in and get shots. But then you had people
that weren't even around Carson, that were in NBC Vice
president's employees, that weren't even around Carson, that wanted the
shots so they could brag to their friends that the
most famous man in America that they had proximity next
(13:14):
to him. So they were getting shots, and it became
this right of passage that they could brag to their friends,
you know, I have this shot because I know Johnny Carson.
But everyone did want to know Johnny and watching him,
people really felt that they know him. They would write
Johnny letters, they would call up the show and ask
to talk to him. They really, during very dark times,
(13:34):
thought of him as a friend. Come home at night,
turn on the TV, you just want to have a laugh.
He never brought you down to oh he is what's
going on? All my life was horrible.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
He always elevated everybody up, and I think that was
the key you felt good after watching the show.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
In nineteen sixty eight. You have Martin Luther King who
was assassinated. You have Johnny's neighbor Robert F. Kennedy, who
was good friends with Johnny who was assassinated, who would
come to Johnny's all this and they would they would
spend time together, and you have this really dark time
with Vietnam and Johnny every single night was the one
thing that was consistent. After the news, the depressing news,
(14:11):
you could escape with Johnny. You never knew Johnny's politics.
Speaker 7 (14:14):
Johnny would come out and equally make fun of everybody
and never questioned anybody's patriotism.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
It was always about what they said or did.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Do you get sensitive about the fact that people say
he'll never take a serious controversy. Well, I have an
answer to that. I said, no. Tell me the last
time that Jack Benny red Skelton, Benny comedian used his
show to do serious issues.
Speaker 7 (14:40):
That's not what I'm there for. Can't they see that?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
But you and I do.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
They think that just because you have it tonight's show,
that you must deal in serious issues. That's a danger.
It's a real danger. Once you start that, you start
to forget that self important feeling. That's what you say
has great import And you know, strangely enough, you could
use that show as a form, you could sway people,
and I don't think you should as an entertainer.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
In fact, in thirty years, you'd be hard pressed to
guess who Johnny ever voted for.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
And that's the way it should be.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Why alien eight half your audience every presidential administration? They
thought that Johnny was biased against them. Jimmy Carter's mom
did not like Johnny's jokes and was upset until she
finally went on the show and met him and thought
he was very charming and changed his opinion. Nancy Reagan
called the show twice when Ronald Reagan was president. The
(15:32):
first time she was upset. She said, my husband, Ronnie
does not dye his hair. So Johnny went on the
next night and said I just want to let everyone
know Ronald Reagan, our president, does not dye his hair,
but he does bleach his face.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I mean that's not how do you balance the budget? Well,
balancing the budget is like protecting You don't spend more
than you take in, right, It's like protecting your virtue.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
You have to learn to say no.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
So Johnny when he was seventeen, after he graduated High
scho he hitchhiked to Los Angeles. The first thing he
did was by a map where all the famous stars lived,
and he went to Jack Benny's house. Jack Benny was
his heros comedian, and waited for Jack Benny to come
out of his house, which he didn't do. And then
Johnny went to the Navy. He had enlisted, but he
wasn't officially a member of the Navy. So he bought
a uniform and he dressed up, and he snuck into
(16:19):
the USO shows and got to see orson Wells do Magic.
He danced with Marlene and at Dietrich he saw Rita
Hayworth and he was promptly arrested and charged. I think
he had to pay fifty dollars bond. He had his
aunt and uncle bail him out, but he was impersonated
an officer.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And you've been listening to Mark Malkoff and he's the
author of In Love with Johnny Carson, One obsessive fans
journey to find the genius behind the legend, and we're
doing just that. He's explaining and telling the story of
so much of what made Carson Carson from his Midwest
upbringing to all that time spent in magic and being
(16:56):
a game show host in a context where he's provided
almost every cute joke, even mannerism to his wife pushing him,
driving him to this show that would be his own,
that would change how late night was done. More laughs,
more entertainment, and my goodness, we learn about Carson's competitive streak,
(17:19):
watching all three hosts at night who were competing against
him at eleven thirty rather than go out and have
a drink or just go to sleep, and of course,
in the end, his deep aversion to getting into the
politics of the day. And if you could have avoided
it in nineteen sixty eight, you could have avoided it
at anytime in American history. The story of the late
(17:43):
night King of American television, Johnny Carson, continues here on
our American stories, and we continue with our American stories
(18:10):
and with author Mark Malkoff story of Johnny Carson, his
life story continues. Let's pick up when we last left off.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Johnny went into the Navy. He was there for a
few years, and after he graduates college, he's a big
star in Omaha. He's doing radio. Everything's good, and he
could have stayed there forever and been a star, but
he had greater ambition and he went out to Los
Angeles and he did a local show. His goal with
was one year to have his own show like he
did in Omaha. And he did a show called Carson
(18:42):
Cellar and it was a big hit. And one day
a famous comedian, Red Skelton had hurt himself in rehearsal
and they had less than an hour that they were
going to be doing the show live nationally from CBS,
and read as he was being put in the ambulance
said called that Johnny Carson, kid, he can do this.
So Johnny Carson in his Woodland Hills, California, at home,
(19:05):
he was in his grudge when he got the cup.
We need you here. In less than an hour, Johnny
Carson saved the day. He had the ten thousand hours
of practice. He had been doing this since he was
fourteen years old, doing magic, doing radio, doing comedy. He
was prepared. It was the biggest break of his life.
Speaker 7 (19:24):
All Red Skelton Redoo, my name's gottic guys in the
afternoon of a dress rehearsal it was just about on an
hour and a half ago, read the slip during one
of the sketches and injured himself. And the injury is not.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Really too serious, but the Red's doctor advised him that
it wouldn't be too best to do the show today. Personally,
I think Red's doctors should do the show.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
You taught me a lot. I stole a lot from you.
Speaker 7 (19:53):
No, yeah, oh yes I did.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
No.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
No, it's like the students. They say, Johnny was with
you at one time. You helped him gets I said, no,
nobody helps you get started. If you've got talent, think
and put you behind a brick wall, you'll come through,
you know.
Speaker 9 (20:06):
So that's what you had.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
The next day it was national news that the local
boy made good nationally and he got his own national
TV show called The Johnny Carson Show on CPS, and
he was on his way.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Look Johnny Carson show story n Carson.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
The Johnny Carson showed, Johnny would say, was one of
the biggest failures. There were too many cooks in the kitchen.
They wouldn't let him do his thing, he said. And
it didn't last and he was out of work. Johnny
went to Bakersfield, California to try to break in his
own comedy act is a nightclub act. He was running
out of money, he had young kids, and he was panicking.
(20:51):
Very few people went to Bakersfield. He would make jokes
at Bakerfield's expense for years because he was so scarred
from this nightclub act that failed. His agents didn't come
to see him. They sent two junior agents who didn't
even stick around afterwards. Johnny didn't know what he was
going to do until somebody gave him an audition for
a game show in New York called Who Do You Trust?
On ABC?
Speaker 7 (21:13):
Who Do You Trust?
Speaker 9 (21:15):
Here's the star of our show, Johnny what.
Speaker 7 (21:21):
Yah?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Who do you Trust? We have another time to break
on the show.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Johnny got the job. He was so broke he had
to borrow two thousand dollars from his dad in Nebraska
to move his family to New York and Johnny became
a huge star. He was a game show host where
he hired a man named Ed McMahon who would go
on to be his announcer on the Tonight Show for
thirty years. And on that game show his star was rising.
(21:46):
And that is when Jack Parr, who was hosting the
Tonight Show, was leaving, and Jack said, there's only one
person that I think can replace me, and his name
is Johnny Carson, and Johnny got the Tonight Show after that.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
It is no great sick and I'm sure ABC won't
mind if I mention this. Now, what can they do
to me if I do.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
Fire me today?
Speaker 3 (22:07):
But I go over to on the Tonight Show on
NBC starting October the first as the host of that show,
and it goes with me as the announcer on the show,
so I.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Ed McMahon and Johnny on Who Do You Trust were
very good friends. They would go next door to Sartay's
and have drinks between tapings. But when Johnny got this
Tonight Show, he didn't want to be associated with Who
Do You Trust? So he was going to bring in
a different announcer, his friend Hank Simms. Johnny flew out
to California and begging Hank to come with him, and
he wouldn't come. So one night Ed McMahon took Johnny
(22:39):
Carson and the wives out to a restaurant to Danny's hideaway,
and Ed McMahon got on his hands and knees, tears
down his face begging Johnny, you have to take me
King of Prussia. I just bought a new home. I
can't pay for the doorknobs. You have to take me, please,
And Johnny got embarrassed and said, fine, okay, I'll take you.
Just stop crying. Ed made the best decision of his
(23:01):
life thirty years of employment. Because of that act, Ed
and Johnny needed each other. There were times where Ed
overstepped and Johnny was very upset, but overall Ed was very,
very good at what he did. There were a lot
of jokes that were manufactured about Ed being the big drinker.
Truth be told, he was only really drunk once on
(23:24):
the show. The real person that had the alcohol issue
was Johnny Carson. Johnny didn't hide it. He would talk
on the Tonight Show that he struggled with alcohol. I
think that's one of the reasons why people really related
to him because he was himself up there.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
It was real.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Everything he said was real.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Whether he was talking about divorces or drinking or whatever
it might be, it really happened to him, and I
thought that was really cool.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
He would talk about his flaws. He was overly competitive.
He was so competitive it would affect his family life.
But the drinking, he would say, he'd be okay, he'd
be fine, and then he had one more drink and
he would turn into it til the and he would
want to fight everyone.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I don't have my alcohol well at all. No, I
really don't, oh ed, And I've had some wonderful times
in the past. October first, nineteen sixty two is the
day I'll always remember. I was thirty six years old
taking my place as host of America's most popular late
night program, The Tonight Show.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
So as we're walking down, I said, how do you
see my role down here tonight? And he said, Ed,
I don't even know how I see my own role.
Let's just go down and entertain the hell out of them.
Speaker 8 (24:33):
Two one music take.
Speaker 9 (24:39):
From New York The Night Show Starry Johnny Darton, Johnny's
guest Tonight or John Cruft, Rondy Valley Tony Bennet, val Rock,
My Pading, Singers, Hit Joe Want, the NBAC office red Me,
I'm any right, probably wait six months the same.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
In New York. It was very unique. The guests all
had to come in person for their pre interviews because
it didn't matter who you were, you would have to
come into New York days prior to sit down with
the talent coordinator and come up with interesting stories. For Johnny,
it was an entertainment show. It wasn't about education, it
was about entertaining America, and they would work with each
(25:21):
other to get the most entertaining stories. Kerry Lewis one
time said that he would put Johnny up there with Chaplin.
He was that funny and that good at what he
did with comedy. Johnny struggled with competition. There was nobody
more competitive and something was going to suffer, and that,
unfortunately were his marriages and his kids. The Carson did regret,
(25:44):
and he would tell people that he wished he was
a better father. He just didn't think that he could
make both work. Johnny was an excellent stepfather to his
third wife, Joanna. Had a son, Ricky, who was a teenager,
and that is when Johnny shined as a father, but
definitely that was regret he had up until he died
that he wished he was a better father.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And you've been listening to author Mark Malkoff his book
In Love with Johnny Carson, one obsessive fans journey to
find the genius behind the legend, is filled filled with
terrific stories in which we learn what made this man tick,
this legend tick, and my goodness, it's in the end
his deeply competitive nature, wanting to, as we heard earlier,
(26:27):
bust through that wall and get to where he wanted
to be, which is he wanted to be a star period.
And his big break came to the game show of
all things, Who Do You Trust? And there was Ed
McMahon who would be by Carson's side.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
For thirty years.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Then he gets that call that changes his life, and
that's to replace Jack Parr, then the King of Late Night,
and even Parr himself understood that Carson may may have
been the only person who could have replaced him. And
we learn a bit about what made Carson so great.
Wasn't just the prep, it wasn't just the experience, It
(27:07):
wasn't just his drive to entertain and to be number one,
But it was him opening up about his real life,
his flaws, his drinking, his divorces. When we come back
more of the story of Johnny Carson, America's Late Night King.
Here on our American Stories. And we continue with our
(27:38):
American stories and the story of Johnny Carson, America's Late
Night King. Let's pick up where we last left off.
Here's author Mark Malcoff.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
The only reason Saturday Night Live exists is because of
Johnny Carson. In nineteen seventy four, Johnny decided he did
not want reruns up The Tonight Show to be played
on Saturday nights. Two young men in their twenties named
Lauren Michaels and Dick ever Sall sat down with Johnny
Carson and Johnny's office and they proposed doing a show
(28:11):
on NBC, a variety sketch comedy show. Johnny just wanted
to make sure that it had nothing to do with
his show, that it wasn't going to be a copy
of The Tonight Show, and Johnny gave them the blessing
and October of nineteen seventy five, Saturday Night Live was
born only because of Johnny Carson's influence Carson never imagined
that that would be the show that played a huge
(28:31):
role in Johnny deciding to retire. Johnny's hero comedically was
Jack Benny. He loved Bob Hope as well, but he'd
thought that both of them stayed around way too long,
and he perceived that their best work was done when
they were much younger. Johnny was in his sixties and
Saturday Night Live started to do sketches making fun of him.
(28:51):
He thought they were mean spirited. Dana Carvey would play
Johnny Carson. They were written by Robert Smigel, and every
time the sketches were about to happen, somebody at NBC
would tell Johnny, we don't know if it's going to
get to air, but it's going to be at the
dress rehearsal. At least they're gonna do another one of
those sketches. And Johnny said, I don't find them funny.
They can do whatever they want. We make fun of
(29:13):
people on this show. I just don't understand it. My
idea was, Johnny has this thing that no one can touch.
Maybe I can have the kids of that demographic. Maybe
I can have the children of Johnny's audience. That's the
key don't compete, find what's uniquely yours. And they did
a sketch called Carcinio, which was a takeoff of our
(29:34):
Sinio Hall show. And then Johnny Carson dressing like Oursineo
with spiked hair and wearing young person's clothes like our Sineo.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
My first guest tonight. You all know he plays normal
on the number one show on television.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Cheers.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Let's churn it up for mister George Winch.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Is this dope? Is this dope?
Speaker 4 (30:00):
Jeff?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Look at this?
Speaker 3 (30:02):
This is dope stuff right here, right now?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
What George.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Concerned about you?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
What are you talking?
Speaker 5 (30:09):
Well?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
A drastic personality change like this, can you know, really
be very dangerous?
Speaker 9 (30:15):
Dangerous?
Speaker 4 (30:15):
I did not know that.
Speaker 8 (30:19):
You did you know that?
Speaker 3 (30:20):
End? Yes?
Speaker 8 (30:24):
I shouldn't feel embarrassed, Johnny.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I mean this, this is rather common among people your age.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It's okay.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Johnny just really did not want to be perceived as
somebody that was old hat and just making references from
decades ago and just not current. So Johnny decided in
nineteen ninety one that he would stand on stage at
the NBC Affiliates Meeting, which was an annual event at
Carnegie Hall, and shock NBC and the country by saying,
(30:51):
I am going to be leaving the Tonight Show one
year from today. Nobody had any idea that this was
going to happen. Johnny Is last year on the show
was the biggest celebration of Late Night in the history
of the medium. Everybody who had been made on that
show wanted to come back and thank him. Everybody from
(31:11):
Jerry Seinfeld coming on and saying nobody knows what the
show means to a comedian, to Bette Midler being Johnny's
final guest and singing to him.
Speaker 8 (31:21):
For years for the last fologis for the class that
you show.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
And winning an Emmy for that performance, and just the
genuine emotion of Carson with tears in his eyes and
Miss Midler running off stage because she was sobbing and crying.
It was television history that Johnny was leaving the show.
He was saying goodbye, and America's heartbroken. But sure enough,
Johnny went to NBC Birdbank for the final time, do
(32:00):
the Tonight Show. May twenty second, nineteen ninety two. Johnny
at the Barry and told America.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
And so it has come to this, and one of
the lucky people in the world. I found something I
always wanted to do, and I have enjoyed every single
minute of it. I want to thank the gentleman who
shared this stage with me for thirty years, mister Ed McMahon,
Mister got seven sinners. Use people watching. I can only
(32:33):
tell you that it has been an honor and a
privilege to come into your homes all these years and
entertain you. And I hope and I find something that
I want to do and I think you will like
and come back that you'll be as gracious inviting me
into your home as you have been. I bet you
a very heartfelt good night.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
And his one of his favorite songs, I'll be seeing
you have played with the band and bad members had
tears in their eyes. Carson did too. There were people
on staff that were convinced Carson would not be emotional,
but Johnny just to he could feel the love from
those four hundred and sixty five people in the audience
and the viewers that had just I mean, Johnny had
driven to work. He'd been up since three thirty am
(33:13):
because he was so from the night before with Bett
Miller was so wound up and just could not believe
that that actually happened. He was driving to work and
there would be banners on the highway We're gonna miss you, Johnny,
Goodbye Johnny. Every camera crew outside NBC Burbank. It became
a circus, people camping out overnight for tickets.
Speaker 5 (33:30):
You know, for my entire career, I've heard comedians in
bars debate over who do you think is going to
get the Tonight Show after Johnny leaves. What nobody realized
is that when you left, you were going to pack
it up and take it with you, which is what
he did because that show never existed again. There never
(33:53):
was a Tonight Show.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
It was Carson and he was saying goodbye to America.
So he walks off the stage. He gets with his
wife and they get in the limousine, which drives a
minute to an NBC Telepad helicopter that's waiting for him.
The first time ever, Johnny takes a helicopter back to
his home in Malibu because he's going to have a
party for his staff, and he has the last Brand
(34:15):
orchestra playing on his tennis court across the street. He
set that up where they had music and Johnny, with
all the pressure off, finally everyone that was coming, he
would greet them. He wanted to be there before everyone
to greet them and give people hugs. And there were
people on the show that had never seen Johnny that
relax because every single show day was game day, and
you weren't going to have all your energy and concentration
(34:37):
on the show. But suddenly there was no more pressure.
And it was this man who they had been employed
with for thirty years, who they looked up to, who
they worshiped, who they just wanted to be excellent, because
Johnny had demanded excellent of himself, but they just wanted
to please him. And just the fact that this was ending,
it was some of the time the most special years
of their life, and they got to thank the man
and just to spend that time with him. And then
(35:00):
for two years after that would to make appearances. People
thought they would never see him again. But for two
years Johnny after retirement, he did the Simpsons, He made
a cameo in Letterman, he did the Bob Hope ninetieth Birthday,
the American Teacher Awards. He goes to the White House
and gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom from George Herbert
Walker Bush, one.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Of America's greatest television personalities.
Speaker 9 (35:21):
Johnny Carson left the Nebraska Planes to reside over late
night TV for almost thirty years. The United States Honors
Johnny Carson, who personifies the hard and humor of.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
America, does the Kennedy Center Honors, so he makes appearances,
but in May of ninety four, he makes his final
appearance when he makes a cameo in Dave Letterman Show
when Dave is in Los Angeles at CBS Television City.
And after that we never got to see Johnny again.
He put out clips of the show on VHS and me.
(35:50):
Mark Malcoff is a teenager when it was time for
the holidays and wanted a president. I didn't want Nintendo,
I didn't want football cards. I didn't want anything that
people my age typically wanted. I wanted the Johnny Carson
VHS box set. And when I got it at this
beautiful Hirschfeld print of Johnny Carson with a FA similar autograph,
(36:11):
and I wore those VHS tapes out. Johnny personally picked
his favorite moments from the show with Comedians with Animals
with Guests with sketches. Johnny has been off the air
now for over three decades. He's been gone from the
earth for twenty years. Johnny would recently would have turned
one hundred years old. He is missed by America to
(36:33):
this day, but his work lives on and millions of
people still watch the clips that are just as funny
as they were decades previously in younger generations constantly because
of YouTube or finding what made Johnny special and made
him the king of Late Night And.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
A terrific job on the production, editing and storytelling by
our own Greg Hengler, and a special thanks to Mark Melkoff.
His book In Love with Johnny Carson, One obsessive fans
journey to fight and the genius behind the legend is
available wherever you buy your books. Again, that's In Love
with Johnny Carson. Get this book. You won't put it down.
(37:10):
And my goodness, what a story he told us about
Johnny understanding that well, he didn't want to go out
past his prime, and he'd worried that that's what Jack
Benny and Bob Hope had done. He admired both of
those men. In the end, watches comedy carefully, and watch
Jack Benny and particularly careful, and you learn so much
about Carson's great talent, which is the reaction. He's just
(37:34):
so present, his ability to react to his guests as
good as we've ever seen in the history of television.
And of course then came that shocker in nineteen ninety one.
Johnny just decided to end things, and it was so smart.
He gave it one year, not a second farewell, not
a third year, farewell one and that final performance I
(37:55):
know I cried. Thirty years later, and twenty years after
his death, Carson's work still on YouTube, entertaining us and
in the end, relieving us of some of life's daily
problems and exigencies. The story of Johnny Carson, America's Late
Night King here on our American Stories
Host
Lee Habeeb
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