September 25, 2025 • 29 mins
Model, actress, and stunt driver Ivy Smith first noticed psoriasis after the birth of her second child, but it took years, another pregnancy, and mounting pain before she finally got a diagnosis. In this episode, she opens up about battling stigma on set, the slow journey to show her skin with pride, and how adrenaline-fueled stunt driving became a surprising outlet. Plus, we rewind to the 1960s to uncover how a single classified ad led to the creation of the National Psoriasis Foundation–and forever changed the landscape of patient advocacy
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Rube.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Holly Fry and this is Season two of Our Skin,
a personal discovery podcast. Today we are so excited to
welcome Ivy Smith to Our Skin. Ivy is a model,
an actress, a stunt driver, and a passionate advocate for
soriasis awareness whose journey is as multifaceted as it is powerful.
(00:31):
And like other guests we've had, Ivy first noticed signs
of soriasis shortly after having a child, in this case,
after the birth of her second child, and at the
time she wasn't sure what was happening, just that her
body was reacting in a way that felt unfamiliar and overwhelming.
During her third pregnancy, she experienced another major flare, but
(00:53):
like many people, Ivy didn't seek treatment right away. It
actually took time to seek out a diagnosis. Since then,
she has used her platform to speak honestly about the
emotional and physical realities of life with psoriasis. Her openness
has helped others feel less alone, and it pushes the
entertainment industry toward a more inclusive vision of beauty and health.
(01:16):
So today we are talking to Ivy about visibility, vulnerability,
and the wild ride that brought her here, Ivy, Welcome
to our skin. We are so glad you're here.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Take us back to when you first noticed changes in
your skin and thought like, this might be psoriasis. That
was right after you had your second child, right.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Correct, Yes, so I actually didn't know x risies existed.
I just saw like a lot of flakes coming out
from my hair and it was itchy and painful, and
I was like, what's going on, Well, maybe my hormones
were changing because I had another kid. Yeah, I don't
know what's going on. And I was very stressed out
(01:58):
at the time, trying to balance another baby and work, money,
life in general. And I kind of waited for a
bit and it got worse and worse and worse, and
it was very painful, and I was like, I need
to do something about this. So I finally went to
the doctor like a year later. And I know I
(02:21):
shouldn't have done that, you know, I should have went sooner.
Maybe I could have helped my crisis journey a little
bit better. And that's when my doctor told me it
was crisis. I didn't know what it was, and they
gave me some pamphlets to read about it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I hope you will give yourself a little bit of
grace though, because when you have a newborn, it's not
like you're like and let me add another doctor's appointment
to the mix. So I'm not gonna guilt you at
all for waiting a while to get it checked out.
You then had another flair during your third pregnancy. Did
you talk to your doctors about that pattern? Pregnancy seem
(03:01):
to be such a trigger for you.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I didn't even think about it at the time. I
just thought, you know, oh, it just came back, another flare.
You know, why am I so stressed?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Why am I so stressed with? Yeah, exactly three kids
and a job. But why I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
It is interesting because so many of the people we've
talked to on the show, pregnancy is when it first
shows up for them, So there is clearly a link there.
I'm curious, though, now you are past that third pregnancy,
how does your psoriasis show up now? Have the patterns
of what triggers flares changed over time? Have you identified
(03:40):
different patterns?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
So it is actually it was usually on the back
of my scalp, in my ears, around my ears, and
then it's going on my other parts of my body,
like my arm, my hand, my face, my neck, my legs.
So it's it's spreading. I guess you could say, I
don't know the term or if it is spreading or
(04:04):
it's just my immune system going off and saying, hey,
you're stressed out, chill out.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
You are an actress and a model, among other things,
so of course in those industries your appearance is something
that you have to confront for work a lot of
the time. How did people react on sets if you
were there and having a flare and was there an
understanding early on of whatsiriasis was and what you were
actually going through?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So good question.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
In the beginning, I'm still alone embarrassed, but I'm trying
to like get over that. But in the beginning, I
had to tell the makeup artist the hair person that hey,
I have soriasis and it's not contagious. Actually, back then
they didn't know a lot about psiasis, so I had
(04:52):
to kind of educate them and tell them what it is.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
And in a way in the beginning.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Some were little standoffish and like okay, you know, I
could see it in their face, like, yeah, they're using
makeup brushes on me and like on parts of my
skin or to cover it up. And I felt that
it was a little uneas then. But now when I
go to shoots, they know what it is and most
(05:20):
of them have it as well, so they're like, Okay,
we got this.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
That's cool. You just mentioned and you've spoken in other
places really candidly about the self consciousness that you have
felt during flares. Was there a particular moment when you
started to challenge that instinct within yourself and share your
skin more openly or was it a bit of a
slower shift.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Back then, it was a slower shift because I was
telling people about it and they didn't know what it was.
Not that many people knew about it, and I felt
kind of alone, like am I an outcast? What's going on?
What's going on with my body? Am I like an alien?
People look at at me like, oh, what is that?
Get away from me? They didn't say that per se,
(06:04):
but I felt that right. I felt very insecure in
my body back then.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I'm curious do you think maybe subconsciously, as you were
explaining it to other people and kind of self advocating,
do you think you heard yourself and that helped ease
that transition. When you're saying these things and you're explaining
them over and over, are you also receiving that message
and maybe getting a little more comfortable with the idea.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I think when more people came out, I didn't feel alone,
and it made me feel a lot more comfortable and
welcoming to show it.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Who cares? I have sur rises? Yeah, what do you have?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
You know?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
But noah.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I felt much more comfortable as people started saying I
have it too, or my brother has or my sister
has it, or my mom has it, And it felt
more comfortable and I started saying to myself like, hey,
this is normal now, let me just embrace it. And
(07:08):
then my insecurity started to fade away. I felt good
about myself.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I understand you are also a stunt driver. I have
so many questions how did you gain this particular skill?
And also, aren't you supposed to be avoiding stress theoretically
or is it for you something that's actually a stress release.
I could see that being the case as well.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
It's like a mental game when I'm doing stunts or
I'm on a show and they need me to do
certain things, it's like playing chess, Like okay, how am
I going to do this? If I do this, they
will do that. Or if I do this, I could
do that. So it's kind of mentally, I guess, challenging
me in a way, and then I can overcome it
(07:49):
and it feels good. It's like satisfying to be like, Okay,
I did it feels good and then the thrill of
the I guess you know, it's like when you're riding
on a roller coaster. H you'reic heart dropped and it's
like the blood is pumping. It feels like exhilarating to me.
So when I race and I do that and do
stunts and stuff like that, I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
You get the adrenaline rush of the danger and then
the dopamine hit of having solved the problem. Yes, I
can see where that's powerful. Chronic conditions like siriasis can
really shake a person's sense of control. And I'm wondering
how you, and this may tie to the answer you
just gave me, how you manage those moments when siasis
still flares, even after all of your inner work and advocacy.
(08:36):
Do you look at that as a puzzle that you
have to solve now? To you?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Okay, so of course, I understand that stress kind of
flares it out. It's hard to manage stress, but I
know I have to, and that's another challenge I'm trying
to deal with and overcome. But I'm trying to learn
ways to kind of alleviate that, like working out. I
(08:59):
just went to gym this morning and just doing breathing
exercises to kind of help and understand that I can't
control everything and learn how to let it go.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
One thing that you mentioned earlier and that you've expressed
in other interviews is that you do wish you had
sought medical treatment sooner. And we talked a little bit
about some of the reasons that might have been the case.
But what was the moment that got you to say,
all right, let's go to the doctor. I need an appointment.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well, I knew that whatever was happening to me was
not norramal at all. And it was embarrassing to even
wear a dark colored shirt because all the flakes will
come out and it just shows up in my hair
because I have black hair, so it's definitely going to shine.
And I can't put my hair in a ponytail like
I used to because they'll see it. It was getting
(09:50):
to a point where I couldn't live in a comfortable
stage at life, and I was trying to hide it
and it was getting warm, and then I have to
figure out a new way to hide it, and I'm
just like, I need to get this checked. Not only
hiding it was an issue is the pain and it
was very annoying.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's one of those things that causes like a stress spiral. Right.
The stress contributes to it, but then you get stressed
because you're trying to conceal it, and then it gets
worse and it just keeps going out of control. It is,
as we know from talking to a lot of people,
not easy to navigatesoriasis solow and it is also not
easy to reach out and ask for help. Today, as
(10:33):
we step into skin history, we're going to tell the
story of how one classified ad a birthday gift turned
into the largest national patient advocacy group for people with psoriasis,
that is the National Psoriasis Foundation. We're going to talk
about that, and I'm going to bring Ivy along for
the ride right after this. For today's trip through skin history,
(11:06):
we are not headed to ancient Egypt or nineteenth century
France this time. Don't worry. We're not talking about gross treatments.
We are traveling to a much more recent time. We
are headed to nineteen sixty six, to Portland, Oregon. So
picture it a black and white classified ad section tucked
in the back pages of the Oregonian newspaper, and in
between listings for used cars and help wanted ads, one
(11:30):
small notice catches the eye. It's from someone looking to
connect with others who have psyriasis. Just a few words,
but this ad changed everything because the person it was
placed for, Beverly Foster, was desperate and her husband Larry,
placed this ad for her as a birthday gift. She
(11:50):
had very severe psoriasis covering nearly eighty percent of her body,
and the itching was relentless, and the pain was constant,
and the emotional understandably almost unbearable. Beverly was really lonely,
and she wanted to know if anyone else had any
experience like hers. IVY. How sweet is it that her
(12:10):
husband tried to figure out a way to find her
friends by putting out this ad.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
That is very sweet. I wish I had that support
when I had my first flare, And.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Of course back then there was no internet right there
weren't patient communities. There was no national psoriasis Foundation. There
were just a few pamphlets that you could get from
your doctor's office, and otherwise it was pretty much silence.
In the nineteen sixties, treatment options for ciriasis were really
really limited. Often ineffective coal tar preparations, which were messy
(12:45):
and smelly, were among the few available treatments. Some doctors
would prescribe cordico steroids, but of course those come with
significant side effects, especially when used long term, and many
patients were kind of just told to live with it,
or they were prescribed treatment that barely made a dent
in their symptoms. So for someone like Beverly who psoriasis
was so extensive, finding relief felt nearly impossible. And at
(13:10):
this point, the medical community did not fully understand poriasis
as an autoimmune condition. That knowledge was just starting to
come into focus in the nineteen sixties, and a lot
of doctors treated it just as a skin disorder, not
recognizing the complex autoimmunity that actually causes the disease. So
there was a general sense that, like dandriff or dry skin,
(13:33):
psoriasis wasn't a big deal, and that meant that treatments
were often superficial At best. They addressed symptoms rather than
the underlying causes. Soriasis in the nineteen sixties wasn't just misunderstood,
it was largely invisible because all of this misunderstanding came
with fears of stigma. Ivy. You have talked about even
(13:54):
in this time of advocacy and having more information, there
is still lots of stigma, right.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I would think.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
So now that we have more knowledge of everything or
about psoriasis, I feel that helps. It takes one step
and it just snowballs into something bigger and better.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I know. I think it's a perfect thing to say
because it ties in very much a Beverly's story because
the general public at this point knew almost nothing about
the condition. It's kind of like how you mentioned earlier,
like when you first started explaining to makeup artists what
was going on. They didn't know, and the little that
the public did know at this point was often completely wrong.
A lot of people still thoughtsoriasis was contagious, or that
(14:36):
it was dirty and had to do with hygiene, or
that it was somehow shameful, and this stigma led a
lot of people to hide their symptoms and their stories,
and dermatologists even were pretty ill equipped, and general practitioners
were even less prepared. There were no standard treatments that
worked well for everyone. Research funding was minimal, and people
(14:57):
with psoriasis felt isolated and ashamed and alone, something that
a lot of people today still feel before they find
all of these communities. So when Larry Foster placed that
classified ad for his wife, he was really doing a
quietly radical thing. He was asking people with psoriasis to
raise their hands and say I'm here and kind of
(15:18):
come out in that regard. And the cool thing is
people responded. It is reported that the first day that
that ad appeared, hundreds of people contacted Beverly. People from
across Oregon and even farther wrote or called to say
I have this too. I have psoriasis, or my spouse does,
or my child has it, and we don't know where
(15:39):
to turn either. Can you relate to that feeling? Do
you think you would have responded to an AD like
this if you had discovered your psoriasis in a time
when there wasn't a lot of online information and doctors
were not as informed.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Oh yeah, Like I told you earlier that I felt
isolated and like an alien. I didn't know anybody that
hadn't then slowly started coming out. So definitely, if I
saw that ad, I would be thrilled in. I would
definitely reach out and be a part of a trend group,
you know, the Sizes team, right.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I have to imagine that had to feel like this
little flag of hope too, just to recognize someone else
has stated publicly like, hey I have this, I'm looking
for other people like me. If you're the other person
like them, and you've never had anybody else say that,
that's got to be like, that's the thrill in the
rush right there. So people poured out their frustrations and
(16:34):
their fears when contacting Beverly. Some of them had never
spoken to anyone else about their psiriasis before. Others had
been through years of ineffective treatment and feeling isolated, and
a lot, just like Beverly, were overwhelmed by the emotional
toll and the volume of correspondents that she received really
surprised Beverly. But even more striking was the depth of
(16:57):
pain and loneliness in those letters and those calls. It
was so abundantly clear she was not alone. There was
this whole community, and it was one that hadn't even
known that it existed. So she started gathering those letters,
she started calling back, and then she did something that
would shape the next sixty years of patient advocacy. She
(17:19):
decided to organize I love this. She started a local
support group for people that were living with psoriasis. And
this started out very, very small, a few dozen people
gathering in church basements in Portland or community centers so
that they could share their stories and ask questions and
just support one another. But it did not stay small
(17:40):
for very long. Word spread, more letters kept coming in,
and soon this little support group was getting inquiries from
across the country. And so what started as this simple
casual gathering grew very quickly beyond something that a single
person could manage, and Beverly realized people didn't just need
local support, they need did a national voice. So she
(18:02):
started the work of transforming this Oregon based support group
into something much bigger. This seems to me so daunting,
but I have to feel like it must have been
such an empowering moment to realize that you inadvertently became
a change maker, to want to transition into this that
transition going National was not easy. Beverly had a lot
(18:24):
to do. She had to learn about nonprofit law, she
had to learn about fundraising and organizational management. All throughout
this she was also managing her own very severe psoriasis.
But she was very determined to ensure that no one
else would have to feel alone as she had felt.
I would imagine there would be a sense of identifying
(18:45):
with this idea for you.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yes, it makes me want to like, is she alive?
Can I contact her now and say thank you?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Beverly? Beverly then, just a year after she started, so
we're at nineteen sixty seven now, Beverly's local support group
officially became the National Soriasis Foundation, and Beverly served as
the organization's driving force. In those early years. She worked
absolutely tirelessly to build the infrastructure that would support Sorias's
(19:14):
patients nationwide, and the foundation started small. It was Beverly
and a handful of volunteers that were working out of
their homes, but it grew very rapidly. She understood that
creating lasting change required a lot more than just good intentions.
It required strategic thinking and medical expertise, and sustained advocacy
(19:35):
Beverly was the executive director of the National Soriasis Foundation
throughout its first crucial decade. She created public awareness of
the fact that siriasis is not contagious and also can
be debilitating and severe in an era during which ad
campaigns put this disease in the same category as dandriff.
She lobbied, she actually testified before Congress to establish funding
(19:59):
for medical research and public education, and she was a
patient advocate within the medical community. Have you had any
contact with the National Psoriasis Foundation or other patient groups.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I have not, but I am in a group on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I also tried to see if I could educate other
people with it, but I would definitely be interested in
another group seeing how I can help.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Do you feel like you have a good sense of
support at this point in your journey with psoriasis?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, definitely. I found out my dad had it.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
He didn't, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, and so he is a good support.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Did that change your relationship with your dad?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
We always had a good relationship, but it also definitely
made us closer, like, Oh, let's see what's stuff we
could show each other.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Hey, this is my that is amazing. So there's a
little blip in Beverly's story. We don't know exactly what happened,
but Beverly and Larry's marriage did end at some point
during this whole journey. But she did meet the man
that she would spend the rest of her life with
at the twentieth anniversary party for the National Soriasis Foundation.
(21:05):
That was doctor Kenneth Halprin. They got married in nineteen
eighty nine and together they continued fundraising and advocating for patients,
including being advocates for the AIDS community in the nineteen nineties.
So they were way ahead of the curve in terms
of really taking care of people in very organized ways.
But I want to talk more about this little organization
(21:27):
that could, the National Soriasis Foundation. By the early nineteen seventies,
the National Soriasis Foundation had launched patient education efforts, newsletters,
and fundraising campaigns, and they created educational materials that helped
people understand their condition and advocate for themselves. And their
focus wasn't just on treatments and things you could ask for.
(21:49):
It was also just on dignity, helping people understand their
condition and advocate for themselves and stop feeling ashamed of
their skin. In nineteen eighty seven, the NPF funded its
first grant, the Pilot Program Award. Since then, the NPF
has invested more than thirty five million dollars to support
the research of everyone from young doctors to academic scientists
(22:13):
seeking to learn more about how to treat and live
with soiasis, and on their website they list the active
research projects that they are currently funding. This is very
interesting reading if you've got some time and want to
know what kind of things they are focusing their financial
support on. It's pretty cool. I didn't want to spoiler
you earlier when you asked, but Beverly passed away in
(22:33):
two thousand and three, so you can't, unfortunately thank her
in person, but you can thank her in the more
general sense. That was just a couple of months before
the National Toriasis Foundation's first official Capitol Hill Day. We're
an army of NPF personnel and volunteers went to meet
with congressional leaders and members to advocate for people with psoriasis.
(22:56):
I'm getting very choked up about this.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I know that this is a great inspiring story. I
didn't even know about this.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I know she's great. I really liked the idea that
even though Beverly wasn't there for it, she was there
for all of the planning, and she knew that this
big moment was coming today. The National Soriasis Foundation is,
of course, one of the world's leading patient advocacy organizations.
It is the world's largest nonprofit serving people with psoriasis
(23:22):
and soiatic arthritis, and it serves more than three million
people annually through patient and professional health education and advocacy initiatives.
This is so amazing to me because it just started
with a few words in a newspaper. The Foundation's current
scope is really remarkable, particularly when you consider those humble beginnings.
Their research portfolio includes everything from basic science investigations into
(23:47):
the immune system mechanisms underlying poriasis to clinical trials that
are testing new treatments, and the foundation's advocacy work has
been particularly impactful. Volunteers and end PF staff worked with
Congress to establish and fund a federal Sooriatic Patient Disease Registry.
So this registry actually helps researchers and policymakers understand the
(24:12):
true burden of sooriatic disease and guides treatment development. So
the concept of registry can sound a little scary sometimes,
but this is a really good way to map what's
really going on. The Foundation, though, has never forgotten those
grassroots origins. Their walks to Cure Soriasis, raise funds for
advocacy and research. It brings together local communities, just like
(24:34):
Beverly's original support group did back in Portland. You can
actually do an Internet search and find out if there's
one near you. The Foundation's educational initiatives are incredibly comprehensive.
They provide resources for patients who are navigating their treatment decisions.
They provide support for families that are dealing with psoriasis.
They also provide support for training health care providers. They
(24:57):
have created online communities where people can connect. So it's
the digital version, essentially of these letters and meetings that
Beverly was part of all of those years ago. And
they continue to advocate for mental health resources for patients
because there's recognition now that psoriasis affects a lot more
than just your skin. The Foundation has also expanded it's
(25:18):
focus to include soriatic arthritis. That is, in case anybody
hasn't been listening to our prior episodes, the joint disease
that affects up to thirty percent of people with siriasis,
and this expansion really does reflect this growing understanding that
syriasis is a systemic condition that can affect multiple body systems.
(25:39):
I think this also is kind of reflected in that
everybody is learning about their own version of siriasis all
the time. You mentioned earlier that it's starting to appear
in place as it didn't before, and that's one of
the many things that researchers can work on and try
to understand. So these foundations are helping everybody to really
gain a better perspective of what their bodies are doing.
(26:00):
And this foundation's impact is visible not only in Washington,
d c. Or in pharmaceutical journals, but also in patient
support groups, facebook forums, local meetups, and digital campaigns that
remind people you're not alone. You mentioned your online groups
and how just knowing that other people are out there
is helpful, whether you're actively participating or not. And it
(26:23):
all tracks back to one woman in Oregon who just
decided to ask for what she needed. Beverly Foster probably
didn't think she was a revolutionary, but that birthday, Wish
launched one of the most important advocacy organizations in American
health history, and it proved that just one little voice
asking a question can become a movement. This is so sweet.
(26:45):
They very choked up over Beverly.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Awesome story.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
She's pretty great, and it also really really illustrates something
that's come up and you have mentioned it too, this
idea that we all need connection, and that's a big
part of the pariasis story. She wasn't putting out an
ad saying that she wanted to find a cure. She
just wanted other people. She wanted a community. I love it.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
It's nice.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I'm obsessed with Beverly. She was so afraid and so
alone with like eighty percent of her skin affected this way,
and then she put herself completely out there for the world,
and in that shift changed the world for so many
other people. And that's a tradition that really people like
you are carrying on today. Whether you realize it or not.
(27:28):
You are also putting yourself out there for the world.
You have probably inadvertently educated makeup artists and other people
in the industries that you work in to realize that
they need to learn more about this. So thank you
for that.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Thank you. I don't know it's said. I didn't even
think about it like that.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So just being a public person and saying I have
this I needed to be dealt with and in your
industry to say, hey, this is what it is, and
advocating and explaining to those people. They came away from
that interaction with you knowing more about psoriasis. So you're
an educator, whether you knew it or not.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, it's wonderful. I have two more questions for you today.
We asked these at the end of every episode. The
first is what suggestions do you have for people who
may not have psoriasis themselves but they love someone who
does and they want to be supportive. What is the
best advice you can give them?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I mean having somebody support me trying to help figure
out what this was. I'm just trying to think back
when I was like kind of alone and I didn't
have the best support, Like I didn't know my dad
had it. So yeah, definitely being supportive and helping me
learn to love my imperfections.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Last, but not least, if you could send one message
to any listeners who might be grappling with their own
diagnosis or waiting to see a doctor about it, what
would that be?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Oh, definitely. I mean, see a doctor, you know, don't
wait too long like I did. I don't know if
that would have helped anything, but definitely seek medical personnel
to help alleviate because I know when I have it,
it's painful. I still have a flare on my arm
and it was painful and I'm just like, okay, let
me put my ointment on it, and it kind of
(29:16):
alleviated that.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
So, you know, just don't live in pain.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, it's a quality of life issue. Yes, well, thank
you so so much, IV for sharing your story with us.
Be sure do appreciate it. Our skim is hosted by myself,
Holly Frye, and executive produced and engineered by Ryan Martz.
Our executive producer and writer is Meredith Barnes. If you
(29:42):
enjoy the show, share it with your friends. You can
also listen and follow on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Rube.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Holly Fry and this is Season two of Our Skin,
a personal discovery podcast. Today we are so excited to
welcome Ivy Smith to Our Skin. Ivy is a model,
an actress, a stunt driver, and a passionate advocate for
soriasis awareness whose journey is as multifaceted as it is powerful.
(00:31):
And like other guests we've had, Ivy first noticed signs
of soriasis shortly after having a child, in this case,
after the birth of her second child, and at the
time she wasn't sure what was happening, just that her
body was reacting in a way that felt unfamiliar and overwhelming.
During her third pregnancy, she experienced another major flare, but
(00:53):
like many people, Ivy didn't seek treatment right away. It
actually took time to seek out a diagnosis. Since then,
she has used her platform to speak honestly about the
emotional and physical realities of life with psoriasis. Her openness
has helped others feel less alone, and it pushes the
entertainment industry toward a more inclusive vision of beauty and health.
(01:16):
So today we are talking to Ivy about visibility, vulnerability,
and the wild ride that brought her here, Ivy, Welcome
to our skin. We are so glad you're here.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Take us back to when you first noticed changes in
your skin and thought like, this might be psoriasis. That
was right after you had your second child, right.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Correct, Yes, so I actually didn't know x risies existed.
I just saw like a lot of flakes coming out
from my hair and it was itchy and painful, and
I was like, what's going on, Well, maybe my hormones
were changing because I had another kid. Yeah, I don't
know what's going on. And I was very stressed out
(01:58):
at the time, trying to balance another baby and work, money,
life in general. And I kind of waited for a
bit and it got worse and worse and worse, and
it was very painful, and I was like, I need
to do something about this. So I finally went to
the doctor like a year later. And I know I
(02:21):
shouldn't have done that, you know, I should have went sooner.
Maybe I could have helped my crisis journey a little
bit better. And that's when my doctor told me it
was crisis. I didn't know what it was, and they
gave me some pamphlets to read about it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I hope you will give yourself a little bit of
grace though, because when you have a newborn, it's not
like you're like and let me add another doctor's appointment
to the mix. So I'm not gonna guilt you at
all for waiting a while to get it checked out.
You then had another flair during your third pregnancy. Did
you talk to your doctors about that pattern? Pregnancy seem
(03:01):
to be such a trigger for you.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I didn't even think about it at the time. I
just thought, you know, oh, it just came back, another flare.
You know, why am I so stressed?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Why am I so stressed with? Yeah, exactly three kids
and a job. But why I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
It is interesting because so many of the people we've
talked to on the show, pregnancy is when it first
shows up for them, So there is clearly a link there.
I'm curious, though, now you are past that third pregnancy,
how does your psoriasis show up now? Have the patterns
of what triggers flares changed over time? Have you identified
(03:40):
different patterns?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
So it is actually it was usually on the back
of my scalp, in my ears, around my ears, and
then it's going on my other parts of my body,
like my arm, my hand, my face, my neck, my legs.
So it's it's spreading. I guess you could say, I
don't know the term or if it is spreading or
(04:04):
it's just my immune system going off and saying, hey,
you're stressed out, chill out.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
You are an actress and a model, among other things,
so of course in those industries your appearance is something
that you have to confront for work a lot of
the time. How did people react on sets if you
were there and having a flare and was there an
understanding early on of whatsiriasis was and what you were
actually going through?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So good question.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
In the beginning, I'm still alone embarrassed, but I'm trying
to like get over that. But in the beginning, I
had to tell the makeup artist the hair person that hey,
I have soriasis and it's not contagious. Actually, back then
they didn't know a lot about psiasis, so I had
(04:52):
to kind of educate them and tell them what it is.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
And in a way in the beginning.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Some were little standoffish and like okay, you know, I
could see it in their face, like, yeah, they're using
makeup brushes on me and like on parts of my
skin or to cover it up. And I felt that
it was a little uneas then. But now when I
go to shoots, they know what it is and most
(05:20):
of them have it as well, so they're like, Okay,
we got this.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
That's cool. You just mentioned and you've spoken in other
places really candidly about the self consciousness that you have
felt during flares. Was there a particular moment when you
started to challenge that instinct within yourself and share your
skin more openly or was it a bit of a
slower shift.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Back then, it was a slower shift because I was
telling people about it and they didn't know what it was.
Not that many people knew about it, and I felt
kind of alone, like am I an outcast? What's going on?
What's going on with my body? Am I like an alien?
People look at at me like, oh, what is that?
Get away from me? They didn't say that per se,
(06:04):
but I felt that right. I felt very insecure in
my body back then.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I'm curious do you think maybe subconsciously, as you were
explaining it to other people and kind of self advocating,
do you think you heard yourself and that helped ease
that transition. When you're saying these things and you're explaining
them over and over, are you also receiving that message
and maybe getting a little more comfortable with the idea.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I think when more people came out, I didn't feel alone,
and it made me feel a lot more comfortable and
welcoming to show it.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Who cares? I have sur rises? Yeah, what do you have?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
You know?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
But noah.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I felt much more comfortable as people started saying I
have it too, or my brother has or my sister
has it, or my mom has it, And it felt
more comfortable and I started saying to myself like, hey,
this is normal now, let me just embrace it. And
(07:08):
then my insecurity started to fade away. I felt good
about myself.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I understand you are also a stunt driver. I have
so many questions how did you gain this particular skill?
And also, aren't you supposed to be avoiding stress theoretically
or is it for you something that's actually a stress release.
I could see that being the case as well.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
It's like a mental game when I'm doing stunts or
I'm on a show and they need me to do
certain things, it's like playing chess, Like okay, how am
I going to do this? If I do this, they
will do that. Or if I do this, I could
do that. So it's kind of mentally, I guess, challenging
me in a way, and then I can overcome it
(07:49):
and it feels good. It's like satisfying to be like, Okay,
I did it feels good and then the thrill of
the I guess you know, it's like when you're riding
on a roller coaster. H you'reic heart dropped and it's
like the blood is pumping. It feels like exhilarating to me.
So when I race and I do that and do
stunts and stuff like that, I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
You get the adrenaline rush of the danger and then
the dopamine hit of having solved the problem. Yes, I
can see where that's powerful. Chronic conditions like siriasis can
really shake a person's sense of control. And I'm wondering
how you, and this may tie to the answer you
just gave me, how you manage those moments when siasis
still flares, even after all of your inner work and advocacy.
(08:36):
Do you look at that as a puzzle that you
have to solve now? To you?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Okay, so of course, I understand that stress kind of
flares it out. It's hard to manage stress, but I
know I have to, and that's another challenge I'm trying
to deal with and overcome. But I'm trying to learn
ways to kind of alleviate that, like working out. I
(08:59):
just went to gym this morning and just doing breathing
exercises to kind of help and understand that I can't
control everything and learn how to let it go.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
One thing that you mentioned earlier and that you've expressed
in other interviews is that you do wish you had
sought medical treatment sooner. And we talked a little bit
about some of the reasons that might have been the case.
But what was the moment that got you to say,
all right, let's go to the doctor. I need an appointment.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well, I knew that whatever was happening to me was
not norramal at all. And it was embarrassing to even
wear a dark colored shirt because all the flakes will
come out and it just shows up in my hair
because I have black hair, so it's definitely going to shine.
And I can't put my hair in a ponytail like
I used to because they'll see it. It was getting
(09:50):
to a point where I couldn't live in a comfortable
stage at life, and I was trying to hide it
and it was getting warm, and then I have to
figure out a new way to hide it, and I'm
just like, I need to get this checked. Not only
hiding it was an issue is the pain and it
was very annoying.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's one of those things that causes like a stress spiral. Right.
The stress contributes to it, but then you get stressed
because you're trying to conceal it, and then it gets
worse and it just keeps going out of control. It is,
as we know from talking to a lot of people,
not easy to navigatesoriasis solow and it is also not
easy to reach out and ask for help. Today, as
(10:33):
we step into skin history, we're going to tell the
story of how one classified ad a birthday gift turned
into the largest national patient advocacy group for people with psoriasis,
that is the National Psoriasis Foundation. We're going to talk
about that, and I'm going to bring Ivy along for
the ride right after this. For today's trip through skin history,
(11:06):
we are not headed to ancient Egypt or nineteenth century
France this time. Don't worry. We're not talking about gross treatments.
We are traveling to a much more recent time. We
are headed to nineteen sixty six, to Portland, Oregon. So
picture it a black and white classified ad section tucked
in the back pages of the Oregonian newspaper, and in
between listings for used cars and help wanted ads, one
(11:30):
small notice catches the eye. It's from someone looking to
connect with others who have psyriasis. Just a few words,
but this ad changed everything because the person it was
placed for, Beverly Foster, was desperate and her husband Larry,
placed this ad for her as a birthday gift. She
(11:50):
had very severe psoriasis covering nearly eighty percent of her body,
and the itching was relentless, and the pain was constant,
and the emotional understandably almost unbearable. Beverly was really lonely,
and she wanted to know if anyone else had any
experience like hers. IVY. How sweet is it that her
(12:10):
husband tried to figure out a way to find her
friends by putting out this ad.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
That is very sweet. I wish I had that support
when I had my first flare, And.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Of course back then there was no internet right there
weren't patient communities. There was no national psoriasis Foundation. There
were just a few pamphlets that you could get from
your doctor's office, and otherwise it was pretty much silence.
In the nineteen sixties, treatment options for ciriasis were really
really limited. Often ineffective coal tar preparations, which were messy
(12:45):
and smelly, were among the few available treatments. Some doctors
would prescribe cordico steroids, but of course those come with
significant side effects, especially when used long term, and many
patients were kind of just told to live with it,
or they were prescribed treatment that barely made a dent
in their symptoms. So for someone like Beverly who psoriasis
was so extensive, finding relief felt nearly impossible. And at
(13:10):
this point, the medical community did not fully understand poriasis
as an autoimmune condition. That knowledge was just starting to
come into focus in the nineteen sixties, and a lot
of doctors treated it just as a skin disorder, not
recognizing the complex autoimmunity that actually causes the disease. So
there was a general sense that, like dandriff or dry skin,
(13:33):
psoriasis wasn't a big deal, and that meant that treatments
were often superficial At best. They addressed symptoms rather than
the underlying causes. Soriasis in the nineteen sixties wasn't just misunderstood,
it was largely invisible because all of this misunderstanding came
with fears of stigma. Ivy. You have talked about even
(13:54):
in this time of advocacy and having more information, there
is still lots of stigma, right.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I would think.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
So now that we have more knowledge of everything or
about psoriasis, I feel that helps. It takes one step
and it just snowballs into something bigger and better.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I know. I think it's a perfect thing to say
because it ties in very much a Beverly's story because
the general public at this point knew almost nothing about
the condition. It's kind of like how you mentioned earlier,
like when you first started explaining to makeup artists what
was going on. They didn't know, and the little that
the public did know at this point was often completely wrong.
A lot of people still thoughtsoriasis was contagious, or that
(14:36):
it was dirty and had to do with hygiene, or
that it was somehow shameful, and this stigma led a
lot of people to hide their symptoms and their stories,
and dermatologists even were pretty ill equipped, and general practitioners
were even less prepared. There were no standard treatments that
worked well for everyone. Research funding was minimal, and people
(14:57):
with psoriasis felt isolated and ashamed and alone, something that
a lot of people today still feel before they find
all of these communities. So when Larry Foster placed that
classified ad for his wife, he was really doing a
quietly radical thing. He was asking people with psoriasis to
raise their hands and say I'm here and kind of
(15:18):
come out in that regard. And the cool thing is
people responded. It is reported that the first day that
that ad appeared, hundreds of people contacted Beverly. People from
across Oregon and even farther wrote or called to say
I have this too. I have psoriasis, or my spouse does,
or my child has it, and we don't know where
(15:39):
to turn either. Can you relate to that feeling? Do
you think you would have responded to an AD like
this if you had discovered your psoriasis in a time
when there wasn't a lot of online information and doctors
were not as informed.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Oh yeah, Like I told you earlier that I felt
isolated and like an alien. I didn't know anybody that
hadn't then slowly started coming out. So definitely, if I
saw that ad, I would be thrilled in. I would
definitely reach out and be a part of a trend group,
you know, the Sizes team, right.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I have to imagine that had to feel like this
little flag of hope too, just to recognize someone else
has stated publicly like, hey I have this, I'm looking
for other people like me. If you're the other person
like them, and you've never had anybody else say that,
that's got to be like, that's the thrill in the
rush right there. So people poured out their frustrations and
(16:34):
their fears when contacting Beverly. Some of them had never
spoken to anyone else about their psiriasis before. Others had
been through years of ineffective treatment and feeling isolated, and
a lot, just like Beverly, were overwhelmed by the emotional
toll and the volume of correspondents that she received really
surprised Beverly. But even more striking was the depth of
(16:57):
pain and loneliness in those letters and those calls. It
was so abundantly clear she was not alone. There was
this whole community, and it was one that hadn't even
known that it existed. So she started gathering those letters,
she started calling back, and then she did something that
would shape the next sixty years of patient advocacy. She
(17:19):
decided to organize I love this. She started a local
support group for people that were living with psoriasis. And
this started out very, very small, a few dozen people
gathering in church basements in Portland or community centers so
that they could share their stories and ask questions and
just support one another. But it did not stay small
(17:40):
for very long. Word spread, more letters kept coming in,
and soon this little support group was getting inquiries from
across the country. And so what started as this simple
casual gathering grew very quickly beyond something that a single
person could manage, and Beverly realized people didn't just need
local support, they need did a national voice. So she
(18:02):
started the work of transforming this Oregon based support group
into something much bigger. This seems to me so daunting,
but I have to feel like it must have been
such an empowering moment to realize that you inadvertently became
a change maker, to want to transition into this that
transition going National was not easy. Beverly had a lot
(18:24):
to do. She had to learn about nonprofit law, she
had to learn about fundraising and organizational management. All throughout
this she was also managing her own very severe psoriasis.
But she was very determined to ensure that no one
else would have to feel alone as she had felt.
I would imagine there would be a sense of identifying
(18:45):
with this idea for you.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yes, it makes me want to like, is she alive?
Can I contact her now and say thank you?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Beverly? Beverly then, just a year after she started, so
we're at nineteen sixty seven now, Beverly's local support group
officially became the National Soriasis Foundation, and Beverly served as
the organization's driving force. In those early years. She worked
absolutely tirelessly to build the infrastructure that would support Sorias's
(19:14):
patients nationwide, and the foundation started small. It was Beverly
and a handful of volunteers that were working out of
their homes, but it grew very rapidly. She understood that
creating lasting change required a lot more than just good intentions.
It required strategic thinking and medical expertise, and sustained advocacy
(19:35):
Beverly was the executive director of the National Soriasis Foundation
throughout its first crucial decade. She created public awareness of
the fact that siriasis is not contagious and also can
be debilitating and severe in an era during which ad
campaigns put this disease in the same category as dandriff.
She lobbied, she actually testified before Congress to establish funding
(19:59):
for medical research and public education, and she was a
patient advocate within the medical community. Have you had any
contact with the National Psoriasis Foundation or other patient groups.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I have not, but I am in a group on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I also tried to see if I could educate other
people with it, but I would definitely be interested in
another group seeing how I can help.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Do you feel like you have a good sense of
support at this point in your journey with psoriasis?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, definitely. I found out my dad had it.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
He didn't, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, and so he is a good support.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Did that change your relationship with your dad?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
We always had a good relationship, but it also definitely
made us closer, like, Oh, let's see what's stuff we
could show each other.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Hey, this is my that is amazing. So there's a
little blip in Beverly's story. We don't know exactly what happened,
but Beverly and Larry's marriage did end at some point
during this whole journey. But she did meet the man
that she would spend the rest of her life with
at the twentieth anniversary party for the National Soriasis Foundation.
(21:05):
That was doctor Kenneth Halprin. They got married in nineteen
eighty nine and together they continued fundraising and advocating for patients,
including being advocates for the AIDS community in the nineteen nineties.
So they were way ahead of the curve in terms
of really taking care of people in very organized ways.
But I want to talk more about this little organization
(21:27):
that could, the National Soriasis Foundation. By the early nineteen seventies,
the National Soriasis Foundation had launched patient education efforts, newsletters,
and fundraising campaigns, and they created educational materials that helped
people understand their condition and advocate for themselves. And their
focus wasn't just on treatments and things you could ask for.
(21:49):
It was also just on dignity, helping people understand their
condition and advocate for themselves and stop feeling ashamed of
their skin. In nineteen eighty seven, the NPF funded its
first grant, the Pilot Program Award. Since then, the NPF
has invested more than thirty five million dollars to support
the research of everyone from young doctors to academic scientists
(22:13):
seeking to learn more about how to treat and live
with soiasis, and on their website they list the active
research projects that they are currently funding. This is very
interesting reading if you've got some time and want to
know what kind of things they are focusing their financial
support on. It's pretty cool. I didn't want to spoiler
you earlier when you asked, but Beverly passed away in
(22:33):
two thousand and three, so you can't, unfortunately thank her
in person, but you can thank her in the more
general sense. That was just a couple of months before
the National Toriasis Foundation's first official Capitol Hill Day. We're
an army of NPF personnel and volunteers went to meet
with congressional leaders and members to advocate for people with psoriasis.
(22:56):
I'm getting very choked up about this.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I know that this is a great inspiring story. I
didn't even know about this.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I know she's great. I really liked the idea that
even though Beverly wasn't there for it, she was there
for all of the planning, and she knew that this
big moment was coming today. The National Soriasis Foundation is,
of course, one of the world's leading patient advocacy organizations.
It is the world's largest nonprofit serving people with psoriasis
(23:22):
and soiatic arthritis, and it serves more than three million
people annually through patient and professional health education and advocacy initiatives.
This is so amazing to me because it just started
with a few words in a newspaper. The Foundation's current
scope is really remarkable, particularly when you consider those humble beginnings.
Their research portfolio includes everything from basic science investigations into
(23:47):
the immune system mechanisms underlying poriasis to clinical trials that
are testing new treatments, and the foundation's advocacy work has
been particularly impactful. Volunteers and end PF staff worked with
Congress to establish and fund a federal Sooriatic Patient Disease Registry.
So this registry actually helps researchers and policymakers understand the
(24:12):
true burden of sooriatic disease and guides treatment development. So
the concept of registry can sound a little scary sometimes,
but this is a really good way to map what's
really going on. The Foundation, though, has never forgotten those
grassroots origins. Their walks to Cure Soriasis, raise funds for
advocacy and research. It brings together local communities, just like
(24:34):
Beverly's original support group did back in Portland. You can
actually do an Internet search and find out if there's
one near you. The Foundation's educational initiatives are incredibly comprehensive.
They provide resources for patients who are navigating their treatment decisions.
They provide support for families that are dealing with psoriasis.
They also provide support for training health care providers. They
(24:57):
have created online communities where people can connect. So it's
the digital version, essentially of these letters and meetings that
Beverly was part of all of those years ago. And
they continue to advocate for mental health resources for patients
because there's recognition now that psoriasis affects a lot more
than just your skin. The Foundation has also expanded it's
(25:18):
focus to include soriatic arthritis. That is, in case anybody
hasn't been listening to our prior episodes, the joint disease
that affects up to thirty percent of people with siriasis,
and this expansion really does reflect this growing understanding that
syriasis is a systemic condition that can affect multiple body systems.
(25:39):
I think this also is kind of reflected in that
everybody is learning about their own version of siriasis all
the time. You mentioned earlier that it's starting to appear
in place as it didn't before, and that's one of
the many things that researchers can work on and try
to understand. So these foundations are helping everybody to really
gain a better perspective of what their bodies are doing.
(26:00):
And this foundation's impact is visible not only in Washington,
d c. Or in pharmaceutical journals, but also in patient
support groups, facebook forums, local meetups, and digital campaigns that
remind people you're not alone. You mentioned your online groups
and how just knowing that other people are out there
is helpful, whether you're actively participating or not. And it
(26:23):
all tracks back to one woman in Oregon who just
decided to ask for what she needed. Beverly Foster probably
didn't think she was a revolutionary, but that birthday, Wish
launched one of the most important advocacy organizations in American
health history, and it proved that just one little voice
asking a question can become a movement. This is so sweet.
(26:45):
They very choked up over Beverly.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Awesome story.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
She's pretty great, and it also really really illustrates something
that's come up and you have mentioned it too, this
idea that we all need connection, and that's a big
part of the pariasis story. She wasn't putting out an
ad saying that she wanted to find a cure. She
just wanted other people. She wanted a community. I love it.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
It's nice.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I'm obsessed with Beverly. She was so afraid and so
alone with like eighty percent of her skin affected this way,
and then she put herself completely out there for the world,
and in that shift changed the world for so many
other people. And that's a tradition that really people like
you are carrying on today. Whether you realize it or not.
(27:28):
You are also putting yourself out there for the world.
You have probably inadvertently educated makeup artists and other people
in the industries that you work in to realize that
they need to learn more about this. So thank you
for that.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Thank you. I don't know it's said. I didn't even
think about it like that.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So just being a public person and saying I have
this I needed to be dealt with and in your
industry to say, hey, this is what it is, and
advocating and explaining to those people. They came away from
that interaction with you knowing more about psoriasis. So you're
an educator, whether you knew it or not.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, it's wonderful. I have two more questions for you today.
We asked these at the end of every episode. The
first is what suggestions do you have for people who
may not have psoriasis themselves but they love someone who
does and they want to be supportive. What is the
best advice you can give them?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I mean having somebody support me trying to help figure
out what this was. I'm just trying to think back
when I was like kind of alone and I didn't
have the best support, Like I didn't know my dad
had it. So yeah, definitely being supportive and helping me
learn to love my imperfections.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Last, but not least, if you could send one message
to any listeners who might be grappling with their own
diagnosis or waiting to see a doctor about it, what
would that be?
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Oh, definitely. I mean, see a doctor, you know, don't
wait too long like I did. I don't know if
that would have helped anything, but definitely seek medical personnel
to help alleviate because I know when I have it,
it's painful. I still have a flare on my arm
and it was painful and I'm just like, okay, let
me put my ointment on it, and it kind of
(29:16):
alleviated that.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
So, you know, just don't live in pain.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, it's a quality of life issue. Yes, well, thank
you so so much, IV for sharing your story with us.
Be sure do appreciate it. Our skim is hosted by myself,
Holly Frye, and executive produced and engineered by Ryan Martz.
Our executive producer and writer is Meredith Barnes. If you
(29:42):
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