September 23, 2025 • 54 mins
Messy Monday? Meet Talk Your Sh!t Tuesday! This week, Maddie chops it up with writer, actor, sexual/mental wellness advocate, and fellow iHeart podcast host Brandon Kyle Goodman!
Reunited for the first time since the GLAAD Award nominated Logo Legend special where BKG and friends gave Maddie her flowers, they’re picking up right where they left off. Brandon’s talking all things gay, nonbinary, and polyamorous… and what it’s like to navigate those identities in today’s political climate.
Madison and Brandon reflect on their intersecting identities of being Black, queer, and trans, and how those identities show up in the entertainment industry. Brandon shares the joy of working on “Big Mouth,” a show which they say championed the importance of diversity of all kinds in the writers room. But shows like “Big Mouth” are more often the exception than the rule, and Hollywood still has a lot of work to do to make sure everyone is seen and heard– on screen AND in the writers room.
Brandon shares pivotal moments from their own life, including how “Sister Act 2” inspired their creative journey and how their mom became a Born Again Christian, sparking Brandon’s villain era. But, as they remind us, sometimes you need to be the villain in someone else’s eye in order to live your authentic life.
In a time when there’s incredible pressure to conform, Brandon asks us, who would you be if society never got its hands on you?
To hear more from Brandon Kyle Goodman, check out Tell Me Something Messy on the iHeartRadio app, Youtube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
"Outlaws" is hosted by TS Madison, and is part of the Outspoken Network from iHeartPodcasts, co-produced by Turtle Run Entertainment.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Every time I open up my mouth up and goes out.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Don't wait, no, wind yourself, get a job, ricking, honey.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Rick hook.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
He Chase, I'm black like that. He sbout living gets cooling.
This is Outlaws, but she is medicine.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Hey, Outlaws, Bam, it's Brandon called Goodman here. AKA, you're
messy a mom, and I have something new for you.
So Season two of Teld Me Something Messy is officially here.
So every Thursday, I sit down with brilliant, hilarious guests
like Aby Jacobson Duran Bernard. I'll go a con to
talk relationships, sex identity with zero judgment but all heart
(01:04):
and all joy. Plus on Mondays we'll drop Messy Mom
Mini to kickstart your week. So after you listen to
this episode of Outlaws, come join me for the mass
Seiason two of Tell Me Something I See is streaming
now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I love you, Hey, y'all?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Is it on? Is it on? Is this thing?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Recording?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
What's up?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
YouTube?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Land, land, Instagram, land, snaptet, ground scripping all those other
places I don't say it over the years, Honey, this
is ts Mason Coming to you loud, live and in
color from the Outlaws Podcasts with Ts Madison on iHeartRadio.
This podcast is a podcast that is dedicated to everything Honey.
(01:50):
If you can think it, name it, we can do
it over here. We can talk to it, we can
talk about it. We have some of the most interesting
guests to come through on this podcast to share their stories.
And the reason why this podcast is called Outlaws is because,
in some way, shape, form or fashion, these people have
(02:13):
dozen stuff that got everybody looking for them. They're wanted
or they've just been banned in the USA that means
they're gay. Okay, now that doesn't really mean that, but
it might. Ladies and gentlemen, My guest today is a
very handsome, sexy writer, producer, artists and polyamoris person.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Do you put that in my bile? Like this is litter?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
To put your hands together for my good friend Brandon
Kyle good Man.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Hi, how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I ain't seen you since the special that we did
for Logo I know, and now we nominated and we
are nominated for a glad Awar and hell, by the
time this place, we might.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Have won a Gladar. Okay, let's have heard that.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I just want to say I'm very happy to always
include you or be included in anything with you, because
I'm never gonna stop saying this. You're probably gonna think
I'm hitting on you every time I said I think
that you are so sexy, you use sex, You're a
very attractive man. And what's so crazy about it is
(03:35):
that you identify as do you? Do you identify as gay?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
I identify as gay and non binary and queer and
all the things.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
How does that work? How does how is being gay,
non binary, queer and polly? How does all of that work?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It works beautifully like this you see.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
No, no, I mean in today's climate, especially with the
with the orange tornados saying, it's.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Very difficult and it's very scary. It's very terrifying because
you know, I think there are there are bands and
things coming across kind of all those identities. There are
people who are mad all those identities and and and
the hate is just getting louder. The comments have shifted,
like people are coming in talking about mental issues and
you need help and you need this. It's like, okay,
(04:30):
so it's hard, but I have people like you, and
I have other people who I look up to and
who I value and who I'm in community with, who
just remind me that I'm not alone, you know, I
think we when we think we're the only ones, that's
when we kind of get to lose ourselves. When we
remind ourselves that there are other people out here who
are collectively forging the path forward, who are collectively resisting
or collectively pushing ahead, then you feel more hopeful, you know,
(04:54):
because Maddie, if you on my team, we whoop, they ass.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
But it is very scary the climate that we're we
that we're living in right now, because the President of
the United States has took it upon himself to use
his executive orders to not only not pay attention to
(05:21):
the real crises that's going on in the country, but
to in the same stroke of a pen in fringe
on people who are not bothering anybody, like literally, as
a queer, non binary, polyamorous, sexy men, yes, pronouns, what
(05:50):
are are we still with all this stuff going on
in the world? Are we still adhering to pronoun I.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Mean, yeah, you know, yes, I don't know if they
are are, but you know I am, and we are.
You know, my pronouns are still they, them, theirs, but
also my pronouns or whatever said with respect. And I
feel like the way that we get through is honoring
each other. So I'm still using pronouns. I'm still asking
people what their pronouns are, asking what they want to
be called, using whatever name you tell me to you, like,
(06:18):
I'm still uphold respect and love.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
In my community.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Okay, So I made a mistake in my intro. It
should have been they, then theirs.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
They, then theirs.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
A sexy person, a sexy per sexy godess.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I told somebody the other day I was in a
grocery store and it's like, honey, they said. I was like, honey,
excuse me, my pronouns and didn't they she ooh, yes,
that means it encompasses all it comes to them they and.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
She and she yeah, it's me period. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
You know, It's like it truly is whatever pronouns as
long as it's used with respect.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
But what I love is they them.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
It feels like it encompasses the full power and gravitiz
of who I would like to be and who I am.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
You know, I want to talk about in the top
of this show, who you are and not just who
you are. I want to talk about your origin story.
Oh yeah, and how did you come to be who
you are? And what Eureka moment shaped the path that
you are on today? Because I know in your career
(07:25):
you have done well. I'll let you tell tell me.
Yeah I don't, I'll let you tell me. So what's
your origin story? Tell me about a turning point or
an experience, a source of inspiration, or a Eureka moment
that shaped the path you are on today?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
You know, can I be honest? It's Sister Act too.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
I always go back to strect too and Whoope Goldberg
and Lauren Hill and Shirley Ralph in that movie because
as a kid when I first saw that movie, and
that movie was really about like, if you want to be.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
A singer, if when you wake up in the morning
you can't think about nothing but singing first, you're supposed
to be singer.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
And I really wanted to be in this entertainment industry
and there just wasn't examples a lot of examples of
black folks, let alone black queer folks in the industry.
But it was this thing that was on my heart
that I wanted to act and wanted to write, and
I wanted to perform. And the summer between my freshman
and sophomore year, YU and I came home for that
(08:22):
summer and every night I would watch I would pop
in the DVD of Sister ACTI every every single night.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Sometimes I finished it, sometimes I didn't. But it was that.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Constant reminder that like, whatever is on your life, whatever
calling is on your life, you have to pursue even
if because in that movie, you know, Sheryle Ralph was like,
you can't be singing, even if your mother, even if
it's your own, your own family that tells you can't
do a thing. And so that, I think really shaped me,
which like reminded me, what do you want? What's on
your heart? If it's the only thing you can think about,
(08:50):
then that's probably what you meant to do. And so
that just catapulted me into this career of writing and
of acting and talking and sharing of my self. And
what I've been just trying to do my entire career
is just find my most authentic voice. You know, because
you're in the same industry as me, they will try
and tell you what you are and what you can't be,
and you are a prime example of defying that and
(09:13):
of not being put.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
In the boxes.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
And to go back to what we were just talking about,
that's why they're so angry because we, especially as square folks,
as train folks, as non binaries, you're not conforming, are
not existing in their boxes. And they are mad about
set about it because they are in their boxes and
they think that we need to be in there with them,
and that's not.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
That's not gonna happen. Babies, that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And it's not with the stroke of my pin. I've
done a lot of things to Donald J.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Trum.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Come on the s Yeah, tell us who you've written
for and what I'd like. That's what I want you
to get down to you so I'll get into the
professionally emational stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
So I wrote on Big Mouth for a few seasons
season four through seven. I also voiced on the show,
so I played the character Walter the love Bug. Was
on the spin off Human Resources, which I got to
be a series regular on, and also right on I
have my stage show Hoe Church, which is basically my
big sex at class in the in the framework of
(10:23):
a church and how I became sexually liberated and who
I spell and a lot of spell H G O
U X. And my definition for it is someone who
commits to the sexual liberation of themselves and others by
thoughtfully interrogating their relationship to sex using curiosity, communication, and compassion.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
So that's why I'm a house. Yes, that's why you are.
That's fancy.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's a fancy.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Hey also currently co hosting a new show for a
little pop culture recap show for all the award shows
called Recap with the with the E.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
In the middle. So I get around and I have
my podcast.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Told me something messy, which our intention there is to
destroy shame around sex by talking about sex. You were
a guest you can guess on the show. Yeah, So
we talked to celebs, we talked to sexperts, I talked
to my chosen family, just about the different facets of
being a human and what makes us kind of messy
and how do we normalize that as opposed to trying
again fit into boxes or hide who we are. How
(11:34):
can we be who we are in our fullness? Liberate yourself.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
I don't try. I just can't get into. I don't
try to fit in. I just go in and it's
working for you, ain't it.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I just go right in and it's working for you,
and go in.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
A little bit of spit.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Move the way.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Pod pod.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
So as a queer person, uh huh, how difficult was
it to navigate because big Mouth was on Netlix? How
difficult was it to navigate through that or get in
that space because you know, especially with all this DEI stuff,
it's been rolled back, you know, in the world. How
(12:22):
difficult was that for you?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (12:24):
You know, I'll say Big Mouth is a gem of
a show because they really do value the opinions of
a lot of diverse voices, whether that's about your race,
your gender, your sexual orientation, and so you know, and
you see that on the show. We really try to
represent as many stories as we can. But getting into
the industry, getting into a writer's room is a really
(12:47):
difficult thing when you are black, when you're queer, when
you're brown, your age, and you're a woman. I always say,
in any of these writers rooms, if you see somebody
who is not a straight white man in that room,
like they're a miracle. Okay, that's probably one of the
best writers or best creators in that space. Because the
system is not Hollywood is not set up for us
to succeed. So when you see one of us out
(13:09):
here doing the thing, that's a that's a big, big
fucking deal.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I don't think people really understand. They don't they don't.
They see you and they think, oh, it's like no, no,
there's a.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Lot that you're navigating, and then once you are in
the space, a lot of times it's just a lot
of straight white folks, and so you're constantly, you know,
having to pick which battles you're about to fight because
you want to, you know, gain more success, but you
don't want to compromise your integrity. But you also want
to make sure you're you're kind of left to represent
(13:40):
the entire community, which is not fair because black folks,
queer folks are not a monolith. And so there's just
a lot more mental aerobics that are going on. I think,
for and I'll speak for myself as just a black
queer artist, there's just a lot more mental aerobics going
on to keep yourself grounded while you navigate.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
A system that isn't built for you. You know that
that isn't that.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
As we can see with these DEI rollbacks, doesn't really
value you at base if it's not making money, suddenly
we don't want to do it. Right the dee I
came because it was making people money to say that
they cared. Now that it's not they they show us
who they really are, which they don't give fucked.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
No, no don't they never had they was not surprised,
like never happened. And I see Target was using the
term belonging. Now it's you know what, Yeah, it's called belonging.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
That's their new that's how they're describing it.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
It's belonging.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Oh okay, wow, mm hmm. Belonging to what to the group?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
To the group?
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Okay, okay, okay, do we belong to? I've seen a
little bit.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Of the backlash that's going on with with that, and
I don't know anymore.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I'm so confused, but I'm not gonna shot out there,
So there we go.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Are you afraid, like with all this stuff that's going on,
with the removal of diversity protections and you know, all
this crap that means absolutely nothing for the betterment of
our country, are you afraid?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Of course?
Speaker 4 (15:14):
I feel like anyone who says they're not afraid isn't
plugged in, and I think that we need time to
be afraid that we can actually figure out what are
the next steps. I'm definitely afraid and scared. I'm not hopeless,
I'm not like in despair, but yeah, I mean this
is scary.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
We've worked, We've worked our answerts of work.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
There's been a lot of work that you know, to
for you and I to sit here as we.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Are confident, comfortable, successful people. It takes a lot right
just when there are rights, and so.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
The idea that the rights can be taken away and
people can feel emboldened and empowered to hate and to
discriminate is terrifying because you know, listen, I went to
Amsterdam a year ago and one of the things that
I noticed when I came back was I didn't see
any police until I was back in the airport and
(16:10):
they were like on some little scooter and weren't doing nothing.
And I was like, oh my goodness, for a whole
week that I've been here, I have not had to
navigate police presence. I have not had And how much
more was I able to breathe not worried about like
is somebody gonna mistake me for or somebody going to
come after me for or somebody you know, And then
(16:32):
it came back.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I landed in New.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
York and the first thing I saw were police and
not from New York. And you don't play with NYPD, right,
you don't play with LAPD like as a black person,
you immediately tense up. And so that existed under Obama,
that existed under Biden, right like that tension never went anywhere,
but there might have been a little bit of ease.
But now that you got somebody who's literally raising their
(16:56):
platform right literally saying we're not going to investigate any discrimination,
We're not like that becomes terrifying. Now every time I
drive Now, I'm driving the car that much more scared.
Of course, how could you not be if you are
tapped in, included and got an ounce of consciousness of
what's going on.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
It is scary.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Uh And what's even scarier are the people who don't
think it's scary, And that's why they're not fighting on behalf.
That's why they voted for him. You know, the people
who are in our families, are in our communities who
secretly voted.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
For him, or who loudly voted for him and were like.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
It's okay, it'll be fine, nothing's going what happened protecting
going by?
Speaker 3 (17:37):
That's not a real thing, and you're like, yeah it is.
And then you start singing Project.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Unfold Day one one, and it's just like, girl, So
you need to tell me that you really didn't think
that any of this was possible.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
You think, how did you? You didn't see January sixth,
You didn't think, and you.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Like, you didn't see that you hear you know, what
are you talking about? And here's the thing, it's a
vote for him to me. Spoke to the evils in
people's hearts. Absolutely, it spoke to the evils. Okay, let's
say you let's say you don't have a problem with
trans people, but you gotta have a problem with immigrants,
(18:21):
legal people are being locked up, anything.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
That infringes on anyone's rights, anything that tells somebody they
can't be who they are, or they don't belong here,
or they're not that's you. There's something in your heart
that's off.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
But if you say someone like and I can't agree
with dad, you have to check yourself. Absolutely, I was
talking to a lot of my friends who are sis
gender heterosexual black men that were telling me, Oh, the
Constitution is gonna I said, sweetheart, you're a black man.
(18:57):
Come on, you're a negro one. Come on, and you're
your ancestors fought diligently and hard and.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Died their blood, gave their lives on the street. Come on.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And you easily sit back and say I'm not folking that,
I'm not I'm not getting involved in that, and then
with the stroke of a pen or no more Black
History Month, Yeah, and you're not, and you're not sitting
here like, wow, I could have done something.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
It's a privilege to disconnect like that, you know, like,
and it's the conversations that we don't have, which is,
you know, and we feel this, and I know a
black trans woman, a black trans person feels this the most.
But it's like, when you're a cis gender black man,
you are one removed from the most powerful. When you
are a gay white man, you are one removed from
(19:54):
the most powerful. And what we don't talk about, and
this is without judgment or whatever, is the nuance of oh,
you're you're so close to the number one power seat
in our in our patriarchal structure, that it's easier for
you to disconnect from supporting those who are not as
you go after the fantasy of oh I could be
(20:17):
just as powerful. Right, We've seen you know, like listen,
the like the Nellies and the and the snoop dogs respectfully,
you know, like that went and performed like why are
you doing that?
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Who does that serve? Who does that? Who does that help?
Who does that support?
Speaker 4 (20:31):
You can't tell me that you are for me and
my rights and then go over here and do that.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
It just doesn't respectfully or non respectful, however you want
to take it. It just doesn't.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
It doesn't lie, It doesn't doesn't end up the math
does a math A friend.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Of mine who I still consider my friend, and I
don't want to throw them under the bus. But they
told me, oh, I didn't. I didn't vote for uh
for Trump. I've voted for Kamala. But well, we've had discussions.
(21:07):
I'm like, no, I don't think.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
That's yeah, yeah, people telling themselves how you're showing up,
and really, I don't think that's one hundred percent true.
Because you're in California and the fires have blazed through
and and have ripped California apart, and the media showed
(21:39):
lots of the wealthy places, like a lot of the
mansiones or whatever.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
But they weren't they they weren't really getting into the
communities and showing the communities the people that you know
every day, you know, working class citizens whose communities are
to the ground.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Like.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
A black communities. Yeah, yes, yes, yes I am.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
My friend said, Trump came there and he sat down
with the governor. He's doing some good thing. I said,
in what fantasy are you in?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Nah? Trump blamed everybody here. What are you rand said,
listen to me Trump. I said, what okay, kwanda what Nah?
Speaker 1 (22:34):
And then they said, well, you know it's not I mean,
he's doing something good for that. I said, yeah, please
miss me. I said, let's let's read the article.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
The article says he will provide a based on two contingencies.
And I said, you don't see anything wrong with your sovereign.
You're king, you're ruler of his people needing assistant, and
(23:15):
you're gonna give assistance based on contingency. When a community
of people are hurt and you say, well, they don't
give me these two things, then you're on your own.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
We are like people are brainwashed, like that makes no
fucking sense, right, It's that shit.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I was like, so, why how could someone show their
voter id it's burned in the house. And who put
this conspiracy theory in the heads of these people that
somebody just turned water off out there?
Speaker 3 (23:50):
The demand for water couldn't.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Be kept up because the state, the community were on fire.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
The creators are on fire. We were not. We were
not set up for this.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
The the water system, amount of light is not set
up for a fire storm. You know what I'm saying.
This is a fire storm. And this is not the
time to be divisive. We're talking about contingencies. This is
the time which luckily LA is a community has rallied together.
But you know, you want your leadership to also say
we got you as well. And for this leadership to
(24:24):
be blaming the leadership in LA and saying you didn't
do x Y and you should, it's like.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
That is this is not the time.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Like people are across race, class, like people have lost
their their entire lives there, some have lost their literal lives.
But your home is your life, that's your stability, that's
your security.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Uh. And if you got you know, you got kids,
you got pets, you got.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Your elders, like people have lost things and we are
debating on contingencies and blaming leader. This this doesn't make
any sense. It should be how do we show up
and help? How do we help you rebuild? You are
part of this country. You were par like, how do
we support you?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Period?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, it's not like, well you didn't because it's basically
what it boils down to. When I when I read
the article, I was like, so, why are you so
pressed about voter IDs? So now it's like, okay, well
if you didn't vote for me, because that's what it gets.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah, yeah, you're vote you ain't gonna get It's like
that you're getting this hell. And so anyone who's like
living under this thing like, oh he's a great unifier
here not unifying ship.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
What you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
What are you saying? And I'm over here like asking
my friend like what what is what? What are you missing?
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah? They're not missing anything.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
I unfortunately, I think that that's where I have to
get to with people, is that they're not missing anything.
It's so clear, it's been clear they don't want to
see uh, and so they're they're you know, they're they
are talking around the actual thing, because you know, we
are direct people. The math is the math that one
plus one equals to. And so if you're looking at
(25:58):
it and you're still able to say, well, are you
the person at either, then you're like, okay, then you
actually don't want to be plugged in. You don't want
to be tapped in, and you are choosing to be
ignorant or you know exactly what's going on, and you
are choosing to say that you don't, which is you
know either way, it's bullshit.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
You made an example earlier that i'd like to use
because I'm going to take this back please, and I'm
going to use this example. You said you're one plugged in.
Give me that example from the top from how did
you take you?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Like?
Speaker 4 (26:25):
You're you're basically you're one away from the top. Like
you're like, if you are a straight black man, you
are one identity marker away from the top. All you
need is to become a white man.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Right.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Uh, if you are a white gay man, you got
that one identity that's keeping you from the top place.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Well you actually you have two white gay man yeah,
because well well you get it, Yeah, you get day.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
You're a white man, right.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Or because well, because the black man you have, you
can't get rid of the black.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
You can't, No, you can't. But I'm saying you're like that,
that you can't get rid of the gay either.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
But it's that you can hide it.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
You can that.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Sure, yes, you can hide that masculinity if you're if
you are a mask gay man.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
But all I'm saying is that there's like there's if
I say that I you're a black.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Trans woman, you are not one away.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
From that, all right, I'm far away right away.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
So that's why we see our trans communities are really
the shepherd of communities, right because they have been just
y'all have been the most disenfranchised, and so you've learned
how to build community and how to lean on each
other as opposed to leaning on the government. Whereas some
other folks are like, well, I'm almost at that top
(27:47):
powerful spot, and instead of going, hey, the whole system
is fucked, quite honestly, and how this is working is
actually bullshit, they go, let me, let me try and
ascertain my power this way, let me try a certain
my power that way, And so the assertion of power
then becomes putting down other folks, right, so a lot
of times, even in like in the black queer community,
(28:10):
I have seen black gay men put down black trans
women and that is like fuckery, right, You're just like,
wait what, But it's because everyone wants to feel their power. Uh,
And that's the quickest way to feel it is by
putting somebody else down. As opposed to, your real power
is from within. Your real power is how you love,
how you show up for people. Your real power is
(28:30):
not something that you have to fight for. It's something
that you can it's it's it's it's an open heart.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
That is real power. Mmmm.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Now speaking of real power, Yes, with great power comes
great response to it.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
We'll talk about it.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
And sometimes in with the responsibility we have, people view
us as a villain.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Come on, they really do. Now let's get into your
villain era. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
You know, every outlaw it's labeled the bad guy at
some point, often when we're just trying to live our
truth and do our best.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Now, your villain era could be a time that you
stop people pleasing, a time you stood up for yourself.
Maybe you made a mistake, maybe you did something that
sparked some controversy, or maybe the world just simply wasn't
ready for you. Now, Brandon, what was your villain era
and what did you learn from it?
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Oh? My villain era has been going on for fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Oh it's still going.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
It's still going, and it'll go for as long as
it needs to. Because fifteen years ago, my mother became
a born again Christian and we had to become a
strange because I'm queer, and there just wasn't any respect
there for it. And that was hard say that lightly.
I'm an only child. I'm first generational American. My mom
(30:05):
is Caribbean from Trinidad and moved here when she was eight.
You know, I grew was raised by her and my grandmother,
who also passed fifteen years ago. And so this kind
of all triggered what happened. And I had to make
a really big decision in my early twenties, which was
do I maintain this relationship with my mother that hurts
(30:26):
and squash who I am, shrink who I am so
that I can fit into the idea that she wants
me to be. Because you know, black folks, especially Korean
black folks, like your child is your child forever. They
could be forty fifty sixty and they still your child,
and so.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
There's this tendency to.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Feel like you owe your parent the version of yourself.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
That they want you to be.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
And I didn't want to do that. I wanted to
be free, I wanted to be happy. I wanted to
have a shot at living a big, expansive, loving, compassionate life.
And so that meant setting up a boundary, meant setting
up a guard rail. And that guardrail was we can't
have a relationship if every conversation is going to be
about me marrying a woman, if every conversation is about
(31:11):
saving my soul, every conversation is going to call me
a sin.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Then this that we can't have these conversations anymore. We
can't have this relationship anymore.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
And I say that with ease now because it's been
fifteen years, but it's still devastating. But if that makes
me a villain, which I know it does in her
in her mind, then I am happy to be that
villain because what I've gained on this side of it
is a freedom that is unmatched. But I've gained on
this side of it is love and community that is unmatched.
(31:41):
I wouldn't be sitting here across from you having this conversation.
If I didn't make that decision, if I wasn't in
my villain era, if you will.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
Wow, that was a lot for me to absorbcause I
think I think that most of us who are black,
and not to diminish anybody else's race experience. I mean,
(32:15):
I'm black, so I can talk from the black experience,
and that was that was kind of a story for
me a bit. And you've met my mother, yes, and
my mother loves the Lord. And when we did the
special for logo that we you know, we were nominated for,
(32:39):
she was very if she did, she came and it
was very emotional that this piece was very emotional. I
helped myself together because I would have wept before you.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I cried, but I was like, I can't do it,
so TV, I can't do that. They can't see me.
But it took a while for it to get there. Yeah,
watching that did it give you hope?
Speaker 7 (33:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (33:11):
You know it like it was so beautiful to watch
that and obviously for me, very personal because of the
experience that I have. And so when your mother was
talking about that time and y'all coming back together, it's like, oh,
that has always been the hope, but I realized that
I can't spend my life or build my life around
(33:34):
that hope. I have to let it be what it
is so that I can go live how I need
to live and be who I need to be. And
then if that relationship comes back, it comes back authentically
because I'm not shape shifting myself to make that dream
come true. I'm being my full, authentic self. And then
if my mother decides, hey, like I see it and
(33:57):
I still want this relationship or I want this relationship,
then there's a real bridge that we can build towards
each other. But if I am moving from a space
that like one day, like there was a point where
I thought I would have kids and I was like, oh,
when I have kids, then my mom will want to
be in their life, and so then this will heal
(34:17):
The reality is I don't want kids, but the idea
of having kids stayed with me for so long because
there was part of me that thought, oh, that will
fix it, that will heal us. And so if I
did go ahead and have kids, I would have been
in a very inauthentic relationship with myself. I would have
been a parent, which I didn't want to be but
it would have been to create this relationship, and then
it still would have been built on something false. So
(34:40):
most the best thing I could do for myself is
to be as authentic to myself and as true to
myself as I can live, as free as I can
talk my shit as loud as I can, And then
if my mother says yes I still want to be
part of that, then beautiful. And if not, I have
to make peace with the fact that that's a relationship
that won't exist. But again, I don't want to underplay
(35:02):
or diminish how sad that is, because it is of
course sad for me that my mom was my best friend.
Like again, a single mom to an only child, like
there's a it's a different kind of bond, it's a
different kind of relationship. So it's sad, But I also
can see all the mothers I've gained, all the siblings
I've gained, all the community that I've gained by You know,
(35:27):
when something comes out of your life, they say God
makes a new way. You know what I'm saying, Like,
God puts back in whatever you need. And so I
really believe that that a path has been forged for
more love to show up for expansive love, to show
up for people who show up for me as I am,
who do not require me to shrink myself, who don't
require me to shape shift. They don't require me. They
(35:49):
actually encourage and ask me to be who I am.
And there's no greater gift than that. And so I
if being myself is at the cost of losing that
relationship with my mother, I will say early on I
hated it, but at this point, now that I can
see what I've gained, I'm okay with that. I don't
(36:12):
love it. Be very clear, multiple shouts get to coexist.
I don't love it, but I'm at peace with it.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I told my mom Nad. I told her that, Mommy,
y'all haven't already lived or y'all are living. Yes, I
gotta live.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
They live there.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
And you know God, And I know God too, And
I know the God that knows me, God that knows you,
as the God that knows you, the God that knows
me knows me. I hope it's the same God. But
you know, I'm out of here. Yeah, And sometimes you
got to walk out in the wilderness to find yourself
and let everybody else just because everybody else had to
(36:55):
do it, or or people. Some people are afraid to
walk in the wilderness to find themselves. Then they turn
to and this is no bash on anybody's belief, but
they turn to religion or God, you know, to comfort
them because they don't know how to or they're afraid
(37:17):
to walk out there.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
And that was yes, yes, yes, yes, a thousand percent.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
We don't talk about it, but religion gives us comfort
from the unknown, because when we don't know what's going
on or understand what's going on, or somebody or something
random happens. A lot of this has to do with death,
we don't know how to explain that. And so, you know,
religion oftentimes gives us a comfortable place to land, and
I think it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
When it does that.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
But there's also versions of it and pieces of it
that try to shackle people and keep people in their boxes.
And I refuse to be shackled or refuse to be
kept in a box. I believe that the God.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
That loves me, source loves me as I am, made
me who.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
I am exactly exactly, that that's who I'm I'm afraid
to and the one over here, you know, which we
can get into you know, the colonizer God. That's not
my that's not mine, baby, The homophobic, transphobic, Yeah, racist
colonizer God, that's not mine.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I don't know him.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
I don't. I don't know him at all.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I don't know my God.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
And I said, I said this in.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
The Big Mouth where we had a long conversation about God.
I said, my God is a black woman. Quite honestly,
she's a black trans woman like that. That's my God. Okay,
and that's period. Trust, Trust, trust to believe.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Okay, I am a God, period.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
So y'all can have your little straight white man who
you know keeps seeting your boxes.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
That's not for me. And again this is this is
a very blanket statement.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Everyone has their own relationship to whoever their God is,
and I respect that. But when hate comes out of it,
When when when there's hate and there's judgment and division,
that's not that's the worst of church to me. I
think the best of church is community, is congregation. The
best of religion brings us together. The best of religion
(39:07):
says hey, I love you as you are and I'm
here for you. But the rest of it, nah, I
take it.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
People are going to have to pay atonement to God.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
On the Great Day, whatever day that is, whatever day
that is, however, but the great Day, they're gonna have
to pay atonement to God because I believe that when
they stand before whoever their creator is and they find
out that the Creator created everything.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yeah, and it was good. Yeah, That's how I feel
about my grandmother. My grandmother passed away fifteen years ago,
and I wrote this in my book You Talk My Shirt.
I'm also an author, but I said, you know, I,
in my fantasy, my grandmother, wherever she is, can see
that what what ever believes she might have held, if
(40:01):
she held them about homosexuality, was wrong, you know. And
my grandmother, by the way, was always very loving and kind.
In that space, my mother is doing a thing that's
quite weird for us, for our lineage. But I do
believe that if they weren't able to see it while
they were on the earthly plane, wherever they are on
the spiritual plane, they get it. They get it, They
(40:23):
see it, and they love you and they understand that
they were wrong or had misunderstandings, because.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
You know, the indoctrination is deep.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
You know, you are raised from jump people are told
from babies right that this is the way.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
This is wrong. Girls like pink, boys like blue.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
There's none of this is that they're told that from the jump,
and it's really hard to break that if somebody doesn't
interrupt that pattern for you. And so I believe that
in the spiritual plane, everyone knows the truth, and the
truth is as you are. You are divinely made, and
you were perfect exactly as you are. God or God
loves you. Come on, God loves the Queen.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
So I'd like to move to this section of my
show what we call it Rebel with the Cause, because
this is a perfect way to segue into Now. This
show is called Outlaws for a reason. An outlaw or
a pariah in our culture, it's often someone who ironically
has their heart in the right place, with someone with
the courage to speak up and stand out and push
(41:23):
back when it matters the most. Now, the guests on
my show The Outlaws are some of the most prominent
voices of our time. Their rebel hearts with challenging and
status quo that make a difference in the world. Now, Brandon,
tell me about a cause that you care deeply about
and what drives your passion and how can others join
(41:46):
the movement?
Speaker 4 (41:48):
My cause that I care deeply about is humanity and liberation,
and I always say messy, but like the question. So
the question that opens my book and that I pose
on the internet and I post any one, is who
would I be if society never got its hands on me?
Who would I be if society never got its hands
on me? That is, if I can boil my CAUs
(42:10):
down to one sentence, one question, that's it is spreading
that gospel. I want people to ask themselves that question,
Who would you be a society never got its hands
on you? What would you love? What would you wear?
Where would you live? Who would you be in relationship with?
Who would you be in community with? We are told
all these shoulds. You should do this, you should look
like this, you gotta have it. All this stuff we
(42:32):
get told, and meanwhile people are profiting off of that. Right.
The beauty industry is a beautiful example of that. They'll
tell you everything that's wrong with you so that you
buy something from them. And so people are looking in
the mirror hating themselves, hating what they look like, hating
their bodies, hating their skin, hating you know on the
TikTok when I was I went down a little rabbit
hole of the most beautiful, dark skinned people bleaching their skin,
(42:54):
and it's like, why why are you bleaching your skin?
Where'd you get that from? Somebody put that on you.
If somebody put that on you, that is not yours.
And so the cause that I have is liberating people
to themselves, telling them to be messy, to embrace a mess.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Okay, messy is human.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Okay, don't try it.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
Stop trying to be perfect, Polly. This is the first
time doing life. You are not going to get it right. Okay,
Well this is this is my first time being thirty seven.
I'm not going to get this thing right. But I
can experience it and I can do it the best
I can. If I rupture a relationship or something, I
can repair it. But allow me to be free, Allow
(43:35):
me to because you know these videos of these elders
who are like in their seventies, eighties, nineties.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
And what they all say.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
I love those videos, But what they all say, what
they wish they could go back, is they wish they
didn't listen to that person.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
They wish they did that thing.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
They wish they allow themselves to explore that it's all
these wishes of things they were told they should do
that they wish. They just like said fuck it, and
where them said, and I don't want to wait till
I'm ninety to like finally be like, I'll do what
the fuck I want. I want to do that as
soon as possible. So liberate yourself. Who would I be
a society never got its hands on you? Ask yourself
(44:11):
that question curiously, gently, and then get about the business
of doing that.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
You might not be able to change everything.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
But maybe if you discover that you're in a male
body and you desire to wear heels, then fucking put
the meals on, baby, honey.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Put on you a boot.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Put a boot, okay, Get you a nice little boot.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
I want to get you. And if you and if
you can't handle a.
Speaker 7 (44:35):
Boot, get you a kitten, kitten, a nice little meal, honey,
like one of the things that you want to do,
I got.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
I got a little glass kitten right now.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Kit.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I look, you know, I didn't want to be I
didn't want to be all heightened up.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
I want to be comfortable.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Skins who I am?
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Yes, Yeah, that's to me. That's the cause.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
The cause is liberating myself and helping others liberate themselves
because because we got to get free. As we can
see in this climate, they are trying to shackle us.
They are trying to put us in our boxes. And
the most important thing you can do for your life
is get curious. Ask yourself those hard questions and find
out the answers, and get free as soon as you can.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
All right, now, we're here at my favorite part of
the show, okay, and it is called ban it. Bit. Now,
some people out here are banning drag shows, L B, G,
T Q, I, A boot and even our very existent
(46:03):
But today we are flipping the script. What's something you
would ban if you ran the world?
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Oh you know I was thinking about this.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Sorry. Now here's how it works. Okay, we both each
get one minute, okay, to make our case for what
needs to go. Let me kick it off to show
you how it's done.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Please.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
I want to ban people who are in the way
of people living their lives completely. I just want to
ban it. I want to ban you, bitch. If my
existence is bothering you to the point where you are
sick and tired of seeing me, close your eyes for good.
I just want to ban you. This world has was
not built in design specifically and and intricately specifically for you.
(46:55):
We were given this place for all of us to coexist.
And if you don't want to coexist with something that
don't look like you, that isn't built like you, is
in shape like you, isn't a beautiful or ugly like you, girl,
I want to ban you. I want you to get
on the first rocket ship tomorrow and crash land that bitch.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
On the moon and stay there, yes, and truly.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
See what it's like to live somewhere, honey alone, because
that's where you need to be alone. Bitch, I'm banning you,
bitch your band I bean it.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
Wow, wow, absolutely I agree.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Now okay, now that's my minute, and I said what
I said it bit okay, all right now producers, Brandon,
you have the floor. Reset the timer for one minute,
coming in, all right, Gorge Brandon, your time starts in.
Speaker 4 (48:02):
I would like to ban people who clip their nails
in public, because what kind of.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Fresh hell is this?
Speaker 4 (48:08):
What kind of demonic ceremonial practice is that, y'all? Can
that is a private activity like shaving your pubs or
belting defying gravity when you know you can't sing.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
That's for private.
Speaker 4 (48:18):
I hate people clipping their nails in public, and you've
seen it as much as I hate a straight, white,
unqualified man succeed. I don't like to see it, okay,
and I really think, like you know, it makes me sick.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
It makes my blood boil, you know.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
I feel like and then be clipping it and it
sounds like I'm like crickets masturbating, you know, or it
sounds like keubler elves fucking in a little tree. I
don't like to hear it. I don't like to see it.
People do it on the subway, they do it in
the waiting room of the urgent care and I'm already
sick as it is. They got the nail shards flying
around like a frisbee, hitting you in the side of
the face like a straight bullet. I do not like it.
(48:51):
Ban clipping your nails in public. I want you to
clip your nails because please don't be cutting up by pussies,
but please do not cut it in public. That shit
is to me, Y'll find another devil to worship, find
another devil to worship. Please ban it, bitch, That's it.
Oh my god, get off my chest. Well let's talk
(49:16):
about that.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
So it seems like that you've had a trauma.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah, I don't like it. People.
Speaker 4 (49:24):
I grew to New York and so people on the
sabre always trying to clip like that's the time they.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Decide to click their nails.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
And you know when you.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Clip it, they fly. So it's not like.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
It's not like going in the little paper. It's just
like it flies and you're like.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Have you seen it doing the to nails?
Speaker 3 (49:38):
And guess I have. And that's crazier to me.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
They and they flip flops and they put the they
put the leg up like this and just like that.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
What is that? You gotta be real confident for that.
And I want to fight.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
I hear a lot of trauma going on.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
It really fucks me up. I don't know what it is.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
That and soup. Please don't serve me soup.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
That's crazy. Don't I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
Don't you do that to me. Don't you invite me
over the house for some for some soup. Invite me
over for a meal. I want you to put something
in that but a super sandwich. Okay, work, that's there.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
Needs to be something else, something else, the soup and
the salad.
Speaker 4 (50:16):
Go fuck yourself what you're talking about, lettuce and brath girl,
Bravey just as much as the next bitch.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
But no, I mean they might be preparing you for
something later. Oh well, in that case, preparing me.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Clean se.
Speaker 8 (50:33):
In that case, doll pure for heat as long as
I'm getting meat, yes, and pure for you know how
this pure for men, pure for pure for none, soup brath.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
So for me, the bad part for me. I'm just
where we are now, listening to your story, yeah, my
story running parallel with yours, and then in watching how
our society is governed or or trying to be governed
by people who just I don't want to look at
anything else but what looks like me. Why would you
want to walk and live in a bland world.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
So boring, so boring?
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I love it in a colorless world, boring. You need
the rainbow, honey, come on, give me the full rainbow.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
I want.
Speaker 4 (51:23):
I want other cultures, other experiences. That's how I like.
Life is so beautiful and massive and complex, and for
me to just be around people who look and think
like that's just crazy. I want the expansion. I want
the other experiences. I want to know your walk of life.
It grows my heart, it grows my existence, and I
hope that my existence grows yours.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
But this, like, let's keep everything the same.
Speaker 4 (51:46):
Y'all are bored and you're scared, and you you belong
on that rocket ship.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
To Mars and let it crash land.
Speaker 4 (51:55):
Don't even make it tomorrow because you don't deserve to
make it to where you.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Don't even don't even make it crash layer all the
damn moood. Honey, Yes, just live there, girl, girl, Yes,
you'll say, you'll be rushing trying to get back to earth.
Speaker 9 (52:12):
Like, wait a minute, I'm okay with those trading now, honey,
where are those training? Wait a minute and hit My
skin is breaking out. If somebody gonna.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Make a new cream. We need each other, We need
each other. Yes, friend, I love you.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
I love you so much.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
I love you, love you, love you. When you are
in Atlanta.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Come on, I'm coming to see you first.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Soon, Come and sit at the house my Christian mother.
You know she she you're welcome here. She ain't gonna
beat you down by about the book. She gonna cook
you something. It's gonna it might be a soup on
the side.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Listen. If it's it's it's for mama, I'll have it.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
I have but well then you're in Atlanta, so I'll
tell her Mama. Uh, they need brath Holly, and they're
visiting and visiting the Rock. They may have ani weekend
cure for my mind.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
Now.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yes, I love you, friend, I love love so much.
I love thank you so much for doing this with me.
You are amazing, You're the best kids, and you're still
the sexiest Caribbean non binary pollyamorous, Polly, You're a thing
person that I.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Know, my cracker. Okay, I love you.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I want.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Did we do it?
Speaker 3 (53:37):
Did we do it?
Speaker 1 (53:38):
We did it? Outlaws is a production of the Outspoken
Network from iHeart Podcasts and Turtle Run Entertainment. Created by
Tyler Rabnowitz and Olivia Piece. I'm your host, Tis Madison.
We are executive produced by Tyler Rebnowitz, Maya Howard, and
Tis Madison. Our supervising producer is Jessica cry Chick, and
(54:00):
our producers are Joey pat and Common Bra. Our video
editor is Tyler Rabinowitz and our sound editor is Jes Krnc.
Our associate producer is Trent High Tower Special thanks to
our producer's assistant, Daniel Rabinowitz. Our theme song is composed
by Wazi. Merrit Our show art is by Pablo Martinina.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
Catch you next week, Honey,
Every time I open up my mouth up and goes out.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Don't wait, no, wind yourself, get a job, ricking, honey.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Rick hook.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
He Chase, I'm black like that. He sbout living gets cooling.
This is Outlaws, but she is medicine.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Hey, Outlaws, Bam, it's Brandon called Goodman here. AKA, you're
messy a mom, and I have something new for you.
So Season two of Teld Me Something Messy is officially here.
So every Thursday, I sit down with brilliant, hilarious guests
like Aby Jacobson Duran Bernard. I'll go a con to
talk relationships, sex identity with zero judgment but all heart
(01:04):
and all joy. Plus on Mondays we'll drop Messy Mom
Mini to kickstart your week. So after you listen to
this episode of Outlaws, come join me for the mass
Seiason two of Tell Me Something I See is streaming
now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I love you, Hey, y'all?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Is it on? Is it on? Is this thing?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Recording?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
What's up?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
YouTube?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Land, land, Instagram, land, snaptet, ground scripping all those other
places I don't say it over the years, Honey, this
is ts Mason Coming to you loud, live and in
color from the Outlaws Podcasts with Ts Madison on iHeartRadio.
This podcast is a podcast that is dedicated to everything Honey.
(01:50):
If you can think it, name it, we can do
it over here. We can talk to it, we can
talk about it. We have some of the most interesting
guests to come through on this podcast to share their stories.
And the reason why this podcast is called Outlaws is because,
in some way, shape, form or fashion, these people have
(02:13):
dozen stuff that got everybody looking for them. They're wanted
or they've just been banned in the USA that means
they're gay. Okay, now that doesn't really mean that, but
it might. Ladies and gentlemen, My guest today is a
very handsome, sexy writer, producer, artists and polyamoris person.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Do you put that in my bile? Like this is litter?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
To put your hands together for my good friend Brandon
Kyle good Man.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Hi, how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I ain't seen you since the special that we did
for Logo I know, and now we nominated and we
are nominated for a glad Awar and hell, by the
time this place, we might.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Have won a Gladar. Okay, let's have heard that.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I just want to say I'm very happy to always
include you or be included in anything with you, because
I'm never gonna stop saying this. You're probably gonna think
I'm hitting on you every time I said I think
that you are so sexy, you use sex, You're a
very attractive man. And what's so crazy about it is
(03:35):
that you identify as do you? Do you identify as gay?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
I identify as gay and non binary and queer and
all the things.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
How does that work? How does how is being gay,
non binary, queer and polly? How does all of that work?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It works beautifully like this you see.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
No, no, I mean in today's climate, especially with the
with the orange tornados saying, it's.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Very difficult and it's very scary. It's very terrifying because
you know, I think there are there are bands and
things coming across kind of all those identities. There are
people who are mad all those identities and and and
the hate is just getting louder. The comments have shifted,
like people are coming in talking about mental issues and
you need help and you need this. It's like, okay,
(04:30):
so it's hard, but I have people like you, and
I have other people who I look up to and
who I value and who I'm in community with, who
just remind me that I'm not alone, you know, I
think we when we think we're the only ones, that's
when we kind of get to lose ourselves. When we
remind ourselves that there are other people out here who
are collectively forging the path forward, who are collectively resisting
or collectively pushing ahead, then you feel more hopeful, you know,
(04:54):
because Maddie, if you on my team, we whoop, they ass.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
But it is very scary the climate that we're we
that we're living in right now, because the President of
the United States has took it upon himself to use
his executive orders to not only not pay attention to
(05:21):
the real crises that's going on in the country, but
to in the same stroke of a pen in fringe
on people who are not bothering anybody, like literally, as
a queer, non binary, polyamorous, sexy men, yes, pronouns, what
(05:50):
are are we still with all this stuff going on
in the world? Are we still adhering to pronoun I.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Mean, yeah, you know, yes, I don't know if they
are are, but you know I am, and we are.
You know, my pronouns are still they, them, theirs, but
also my pronouns or whatever said with respect. And I
feel like the way that we get through is honoring
each other. So I'm still using pronouns. I'm still asking
people what their pronouns are, asking what they want to
be called, using whatever name you tell me to you, like,
(06:18):
I'm still uphold respect and love.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
In my community.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Okay, So I made a mistake in my intro. It
should have been they, then theirs.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
They, then theirs.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
A sexy person, a sexy per sexy godess.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I told somebody the other day I was in a
grocery store and it's like, honey, they said. I was like, honey,
excuse me, my pronouns and didn't they she ooh, yes,
that means it encompasses all it comes to them they and.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
She and she yeah, it's me period. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
You know, It's like it truly is whatever pronouns as
long as it's used with respect.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
But what I love is they them.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
It feels like it encompasses the full power and gravitiz
of who I would like to be and who I am.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
You know, I want to talk about in the top
of this show, who you are and not just who
you are. I want to talk about your origin story.
Oh yeah, and how did you come to be who
you are? And what Eureka moment shaped the path that
you are on today? Because I know in your career
(07:25):
you have done well. I'll let you tell tell me.
Yeah I don't, I'll let you tell me. So what's
your origin story? Tell me about a turning point or
an experience, a source of inspiration, or a Eureka moment
that shaped the path you are on today?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
You know, can I be honest? It's Sister Act too.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
I always go back to strect too and Whoope Goldberg
and Lauren Hill and Shirley Ralph in that movie because
as a kid when I first saw that movie, and
that movie was really about like, if you want to be.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
A singer, if when you wake up in the morning
you can't think about nothing but singing first, you're supposed
to be singer.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
And I really wanted to be in this entertainment industry
and there just wasn't examples a lot of examples of
black folks, let alone black queer folks in the industry.
But it was this thing that was on my heart
that I wanted to act and wanted to write, and
I wanted to perform. And the summer between my freshman
and sophomore year, YU and I came home for that
(08:22):
summer and every night I would watch I would pop
in the DVD of Sister ACTI every every single night.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Sometimes I finished it, sometimes I didn't. But it was that.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Constant reminder that like, whatever is on your life, whatever
calling is on your life, you have to pursue even
if because in that movie, you know, Sheryle Ralph was like,
you can't be singing, even if your mother, even if
it's your own, your own family that tells you can't
do a thing. And so that, I think really shaped me,
which like reminded me, what do you want? What's on
your heart? If it's the only thing you can think about,
(08:50):
then that's probably what you meant to do. And so
that just catapulted me into this career of writing and
of acting and talking and sharing of my self. And
what I've been just trying to do my entire career
is just find my most authentic voice. You know, because
you're in the same industry as me, they will try
and tell you what you are and what you can't be,
and you are a prime example of defying that and
(09:13):
of not being put.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
In the boxes.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
And to go back to what we were just talking about,
that's why they're so angry because we, especially as square folks,
as train folks, as non binaries, you're not conforming, are
not existing in their boxes. And they are mad about
set about it because they are in their boxes and
they think that we need to be in there with them,
and that's not.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
That's not gonna happen. Babies, that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And it's not with the stroke of my pin. I've
done a lot of things to Donald J.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Trum.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Come on the s Yeah, tell us who you've written
for and what I'd like. That's what I want you
to get down to you so I'll get into the
professionally emational stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
So I wrote on Big Mouth for a few seasons
season four through seven. I also voiced on the show,
so I played the character Walter the love Bug. Was
on the spin off Human Resources, which I got to
be a series regular on, and also right on I
have my stage show Hoe Church, which is basically my
big sex at class in the in the framework of
(10:23):
a church and how I became sexually liberated and who
I spell and a lot of spell H G O
U X. And my definition for it is someone who
commits to the sexual liberation of themselves and others by
thoughtfully interrogating their relationship to sex using curiosity, communication, and compassion.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
So that's why I'm a house. Yes, that's why you are.
That's fancy.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's a fancy.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Hey also currently co hosting a new show for a
little pop culture recap show for all the award shows
called Recap with the with the E.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
In the middle. So I get around and I have
my podcast.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Told me something messy, which our intention there is to
destroy shame around sex by talking about sex. You were
a guest you can guess on the show. Yeah, So
we talked to celebs, we talked to sexperts, I talked
to my chosen family, just about the different facets of
being a human and what makes us kind of messy
and how do we normalize that as opposed to trying
again fit into boxes or hide who we are. How
(11:34):
can we be who we are in our fullness? Liberate yourself.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
I don't try. I just can't get into. I don't
try to fit in. I just go in and it's
working for you, ain't it.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I just go right in and it's working for you,
and go in.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
A little bit of spit.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Move the way.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Pod pod.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
So as a queer person, uh huh, how difficult was
it to navigate because big Mouth was on Netlix? How
difficult was it to navigate through that or get in
that space because you know, especially with all this DEI stuff,
it's been rolled back, you know, in the world. How
(12:22):
difficult was that for you?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (12:24):
You know, I'll say Big Mouth is a gem of
a show because they really do value the opinions of
a lot of diverse voices, whether that's about your race,
your gender, your sexual orientation, and so you know, and
you see that on the show. We really try to
represent as many stories as we can. But getting into
the industry, getting into a writer's room is a really
(12:47):
difficult thing when you are black, when you're queer, when
you're brown, your age, and you're a woman. I always say,
in any of these writers rooms, if you see somebody
who is not a straight white man in that room,
like they're a miracle. Okay, that's probably one of the
best writers or best creators in that space. Because the
system is not Hollywood is not set up for us
to succeed. So when you see one of us out
(13:09):
here doing the thing, that's a that's a big, big
fucking deal.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I don't think people really understand. They don't they don't.
They see you and they think, oh, it's like no, no,
there's a.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Lot that you're navigating, and then once you are in
the space, a lot of times it's just a lot
of straight white folks, and so you're constantly, you know,
having to pick which battles you're about to fight because
you want to, you know, gain more success, but you
don't want to compromise your integrity. But you also want
to make sure you're you're kind of left to represent
(13:40):
the entire community, which is not fair because black folks,
queer folks are not a monolith. And so there's just
a lot more mental aerobics that are going on. I think,
for and I'll speak for myself as just a black
queer artist, there's just a lot more mental aerobics going
on to keep yourself grounded while you navigate.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
A system that isn't built for you. You know that
that isn't that.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
As we can see with these DEI rollbacks, doesn't really
value you at base if it's not making money, suddenly
we don't want to do it. Right the dee I
came because it was making people money to say that
they cared. Now that it's not they they show us
who they really are, which they don't give fucked.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
No, no don't they never had they was not surprised,
like never happened. And I see Target was using the
term belonging. Now it's you know what, Yeah, it's called belonging.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
That's their new that's how they're describing it.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
It's belonging.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Oh okay, wow, mm hmm. Belonging to what to the group?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
To the group?
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Okay, okay, okay, do we belong to? I've seen a
little bit.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Of the backlash that's going on with with that, and
I don't know anymore.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I'm so confused, but I'm not gonna shot out there,
So there we go.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Are you afraid, like with all this stuff that's going on,
with the removal of diversity protections and you know, all
this crap that means absolutely nothing for the betterment of
our country, are you afraid?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Of course?
Speaker 4 (15:14):
I feel like anyone who says they're not afraid isn't
plugged in, and I think that we need time to
be afraid that we can actually figure out what are
the next steps. I'm definitely afraid and scared. I'm not hopeless,
I'm not like in despair, but yeah, I mean this
is scary.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
We've worked, We've worked our answerts of work.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
There's been a lot of work that you know, to
for you and I to sit here as we.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Are confident, comfortable, successful people. It takes a lot right
just when there are rights, and so.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
The idea that the rights can be taken away and
people can feel emboldened and empowered to hate and to
discriminate is terrifying because you know, listen, I went to
Amsterdam a year ago and one of the things that
I noticed when I came back was I didn't see
any police until I was back in the airport and
(16:10):
they were like on some little scooter and weren't doing nothing.
And I was like, oh my goodness, for a whole
week that I've been here, I have not had to
navigate police presence. I have not had And how much
more was I able to breathe not worried about like
is somebody gonna mistake me for or somebody going to
come after me for or somebody you know, And then
(16:32):
it came back.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I landed in New.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
York and the first thing I saw were police and
not from New York. And you don't play with NYPD, right,
you don't play with LAPD like as a black person,
you immediately tense up. And so that existed under Obama,
that existed under Biden, right like that tension never went anywhere,
but there might have been a little bit of ease.
But now that you got somebody who's literally raising their
(16:56):
platform right literally saying we're not going to investigate any discrimination,
We're not like that becomes terrifying. Now every time I
drive Now, I'm driving the car that much more scared.
Of course, how could you not be if you are
tapped in, included and got an ounce of consciousness of
what's going on.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
It is scary.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Uh And what's even scarier are the people who don't
think it's scary, And that's why they're not fighting on behalf.
That's why they voted for him. You know, the people
who are in our families, are in our communities who
secretly voted.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
For him, or who loudly voted for him and were like.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
It's okay, it'll be fine, nothing's going what happened protecting
going by?
Speaker 3 (17:37):
That's not a real thing, and you're like, yeah it is.
And then you start singing Project.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Unfold Day one one, and it's just like, girl, So
you need to tell me that you really didn't think
that any of this was possible.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
You think, how did you? You didn't see January sixth,
You didn't think, and you.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Like, you didn't see that you hear you know, what
are you talking about? And here's the thing, it's a
vote for him to me. Spoke to the evils in
people's hearts. Absolutely, it spoke to the evils. Okay, let's
say you let's say you don't have a problem with
trans people, but you gotta have a problem with immigrants,
(18:21):
legal people are being locked up, anything.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
That infringes on anyone's rights, anything that tells somebody they
can't be who they are, or they don't belong here,
or they're not that's you. There's something in your heart
that's off.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
But if you say someone like and I can't agree
with dad, you have to check yourself. Absolutely, I was
talking to a lot of my friends who are sis
gender heterosexual black men that were telling me, Oh, the
Constitution is gonna I said, sweetheart, you're a black man.
(18:57):
Come on, you're a negro one. Come on, and you're
your ancestors fought diligently and hard and.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Died their blood, gave their lives on the street. Come on.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And you easily sit back and say I'm not folking that,
I'm not I'm not getting involved in that, and then
with the stroke of a pen or no more Black
History Month, Yeah, and you're not, and you're not sitting
here like, wow, I could have done something.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
It's a privilege to disconnect like that, you know, like,
and it's the conversations that we don't have, which is,
you know, and we feel this, and I know a
black trans woman, a black trans person feels this the most.
But it's like, when you're a cis gender black man,
you are one removed from the most powerful. When you
are a gay white man, you are one removed from
(19:54):
the most powerful. And what we don't talk about, and
this is without judgment or whatever, is the nuance of oh,
you're you're so close to the number one power seat
in our in our patriarchal structure, that it's easier for
you to disconnect from supporting those who are not as
you go after the fantasy of oh I could be
(20:17):
just as powerful. Right, We've seen you know, like listen,
the like the Nellies and the and the snoop dogs respectfully,
you know, like that went and performed like why are
you doing that?
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Who does that serve? Who does that? Who does that help?
Who does that support?
Speaker 4 (20:31):
You can't tell me that you are for me and
my rights and then go over here and do that.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
It just doesn't respectfully or non respectful, however you want
to take it. It just doesn't.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
It doesn't lie, It doesn't doesn't end up the math
does a math A friend.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Of mine who I still consider my friend, and I
don't want to throw them under the bus. But they
told me, oh, I didn't. I didn't vote for uh
for Trump. I've voted for Kamala. But well, we've had discussions.
(21:07):
I'm like, no, I don't think.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
That's yeah, yeah, people telling themselves how you're showing up,
and really, I don't think that's one hundred percent true.
Because you're in California and the fires have blazed through
and and have ripped California apart, and the media showed
(21:39):
lots of the wealthy places, like a lot of the
mansiones or whatever.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
But they weren't they they weren't really getting into the
communities and showing the communities the people that you know
every day, you know, working class citizens whose communities are
to the ground.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Like.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
A black communities. Yeah, yes, yes, yes I am.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
My friend said, Trump came there and he sat down
with the governor. He's doing some good thing. I said,
in what fantasy are you in?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Nah? Trump blamed everybody here. What are you rand said,
listen to me Trump. I said, what okay, kwanda what Nah?
Speaker 1 (22:34):
And then they said, well, you know it's not I mean,
he's doing something good for that. I said, yeah, please
miss me. I said, let's let's read the article.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
The article says he will provide a based on two contingencies.
And I said, you don't see anything wrong with your sovereign.
You're king, you're ruler of his people needing assistant, and
(23:15):
you're gonna give assistance based on contingency. When a community
of people are hurt and you say, well, they don't
give me these two things, then you're on your own.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
We are like people are brainwashed, like that makes no
fucking sense, right, It's that shit.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I was like, so, why how could someone show their
voter id it's burned in the house. And who put
this conspiracy theory in the heads of these people that
somebody just turned water off out there?
Speaker 3 (23:50):
The demand for water couldn't.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Be kept up because the state, the community were on fire.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
The creators are on fire. We were not. We were
not set up for this.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
The the water system, amount of light is not set
up for a fire storm. You know what I'm saying.
This is a fire storm. And this is not the
time to be divisive. We're talking about contingencies. This is
the time which luckily LA is a community has rallied together.
But you know, you want your leadership to also say
we got you as well. And for this leadership to
(24:24):
be blaming the leadership in LA and saying you didn't
do x Y and you should, it's like.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
That is this is not the time.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Like people are across race, class, like people have lost
their their entire lives there, some have lost their literal lives.
But your home is your life, that's your stability, that's
your security.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Uh. And if you got you know, you got kids,
you got pets, you got.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Your elders, like people have lost things and we are
debating on contingencies and blaming leader. This this doesn't make
any sense. It should be how do we show up
and help? How do we help you rebuild? You are
part of this country. You were par like, how do
we support you?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Period?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, it's not like, well you didn't because it's basically
what it boils down to. When I when I read
the article, I was like, so, why are you so
pressed about voter IDs? So now it's like, okay, well
if you didn't vote for me, because that's what it gets.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah, yeah, you're vote you ain't gonna get It's like
that you're getting this hell. And so anyone who's like
living under this thing like, oh he's a great unifier
here not unifying ship.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
What you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
What are you saying? And I'm over here like asking
my friend like what what is what? What are you missing?
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah? They're not missing anything.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
I unfortunately, I think that that's where I have to
get to with people, is that they're not missing anything.
It's so clear, it's been clear they don't want to
see uh, and so they're they're you know, they're they
are talking around the actual thing, because you know, we
are direct people. The math is the math that one
plus one equals to. And so if you're looking at
(25:58):
it and you're still able to say, well, are you
the person at either, then you're like, okay, then you
actually don't want to be plugged in. You don't want
to be tapped in, and you are choosing to be
ignorant or you know exactly what's going on, and you
are choosing to say that you don't, which is you
know either way, it's bullshit.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
You made an example earlier that i'd like to use
because I'm going to take this back please, and I'm
going to use this example. You said you're one plugged in.
Give me that example from the top from how did
you take you?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Like?
Speaker 4 (26:25):
You're you're basically you're one away from the top. Like
you're like, if you are a straight black man, you
are one identity marker away from the top. All you
need is to become a white man.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Right.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Uh, if you are a white gay man, you got
that one identity that's keeping you from the top place.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Well you actually you have two white gay man yeah,
because well well you get it, Yeah, you get day.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
You're a white man, right.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Or because well, because the black man you have, you
can't get rid of the black.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
You can't, No, you can't. But I'm saying you're like that,
that you can't get rid of the gay either.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
But it's that you can hide it.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
You can that.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Sure, yes, you can hide that masculinity if you're if
you are a mask gay man.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
But all I'm saying is that there's like there's if
I say that I you're a black.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Trans woman, you are not one away.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
From that, all right, I'm far away right away.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
So that's why we see our trans communities are really
the shepherd of communities, right because they have been just
y'all have been the most disenfranchised, and so you've learned
how to build community and how to lean on each
other as opposed to leaning on the government. Whereas some
other folks are like, well, I'm almost at that top
(27:47):
powerful spot, and instead of going, hey, the whole system
is fucked, quite honestly, and how this is working is
actually bullshit, they go, let me, let me try and
ascertain my power this way, let me try a certain
my power that way, And so the assertion of power
then becomes putting down other folks, right, so a lot
of times, even in like in the black queer community,
(28:10):
I have seen black gay men put down black trans
women and that is like fuckery, right, You're just like,
wait what, But it's because everyone wants to feel their power. Uh,
And that's the quickest way to feel it is by
putting somebody else down. As opposed to, your real power
is from within. Your real power is how you love,
how you show up for people. Your real power is
(28:30):
not something that you have to fight for. It's something
that you can it's it's it's it's an open heart.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
That is real power. Mmmm.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Now speaking of real power, Yes, with great power comes
great response to it.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
We'll talk about it.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
And sometimes in with the responsibility we have, people view
us as a villain.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Come on, they really do. Now let's get into your
villain era. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
You know, every outlaw it's labeled the bad guy at
some point, often when we're just trying to live our
truth and do our best.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Now, your villain era could be a time that you
stop people pleasing, a time you stood up for yourself.
Maybe you made a mistake, maybe you did something that
sparked some controversy, or maybe the world just simply wasn't
ready for you. Now, Brandon, what was your villain era
and what did you learn from it?
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Oh? My villain era has been going on for fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Oh it's still going.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
It's still going, and it'll go for as long as
it needs to. Because fifteen years ago, my mother became
a born again Christian and we had to become a
strange because I'm queer, and there just wasn't any respect
there for it. And that was hard say that lightly.
I'm an only child. I'm first generational American. My mom
(30:05):
is Caribbean from Trinidad and moved here when she was eight.
You know, I grew was raised by her and my grandmother,
who also passed fifteen years ago. And so this kind
of all triggered what happened. And I had to make
a really big decision in my early twenties, which was
do I maintain this relationship with my mother that hurts
(30:26):
and squash who I am, shrink who I am so
that I can fit into the idea that she wants
me to be. Because you know, black folks, especially Korean
black folks, like your child is your child forever. They
could be forty fifty sixty and they still your child,
and so.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
There's this tendency to.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Feel like you owe your parent the version of yourself.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
That they want you to be.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
And I didn't want to do that. I wanted to
be free, I wanted to be happy. I wanted to
have a shot at living a big, expansive, loving, compassionate life.
And so that meant setting up a boundary, meant setting
up a guard rail. And that guardrail was we can't
have a relationship if every conversation is going to be
about me marrying a woman, if every conversation is about
(31:11):
saving my soul, every conversation is going to call me
a sin.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Then this that we can't have these conversations anymore. We
can't have this relationship anymore.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
And I say that with ease now because it's been
fifteen years, but it's still devastating. But if that makes
me a villain, which I know it does in her
in her mind, then I am happy to be that
villain because what I've gained on this side of it
is a freedom that is unmatched. But I've gained on
this side of it is love and community that is unmatched.
(31:41):
I wouldn't be sitting here across from you having this conversation.
If I didn't make that decision, if I wasn't in
my villain era, if you will.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
Wow, that was a lot for me to absorbcause I
think I think that most of us who are black,
and not to diminish anybody else's race experience. I mean,
(32:15):
I'm black, so I can talk from the black experience,
and that was that was kind of a story for
me a bit. And you've met my mother, yes, and
my mother loves the Lord. And when we did the
special for logo that we you know, we were nominated for,
(32:39):
she was very if she did, she came and it
was very emotional that this piece was very emotional. I
helped myself together because I would have wept before you.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I cried, but I was like, I can't do it,
so TV, I can't do that. They can't see me.
But it took a while for it to get there. Yeah,
watching that did it give you hope?
Speaker 7 (33:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (33:11):
You know it like it was so beautiful to watch
that and obviously for me, very personal because of the
experience that I have. And so when your mother was
talking about that time and y'all coming back together, it's like, oh,
that has always been the hope, but I realized that
I can't spend my life or build my life around
(33:34):
that hope. I have to let it be what it
is so that I can go live how I need
to live and be who I need to be. And
then if that relationship comes back, it comes back authentically
because I'm not shape shifting myself to make that dream
come true. I'm being my full, authentic self. And then
if my mother decides, hey, like I see it and
(33:57):
I still want this relationship or I want this relationship,
then there's a real bridge that we can build towards
each other. But if I am moving from a space
that like one day, like there was a point where
I thought I would have kids and I was like, oh,
when I have kids, then my mom will want to
be in their life, and so then this will heal
(34:17):
The reality is I don't want kids, but the idea
of having kids stayed with me for so long because
there was part of me that thought, oh, that will
fix it, that will heal us. And so if I
did go ahead and have kids, I would have been
in a very inauthentic relationship with myself. I would have
been a parent, which I didn't want to be but
it would have been to create this relationship, and then
it still would have been built on something false. So
(34:40):
most the best thing I could do for myself is
to be as authentic to myself and as true to
myself as I can live, as free as I can
talk my shit as loud as I can, And then
if my mother says yes I still want to be
part of that, then beautiful. And if not, I have
to make peace with the fact that that's a relationship
that won't exist. But again, I don't want to underplay
(35:02):
or diminish how sad that is, because it is of
course sad for me that my mom was my best friend.
Like again, a single mom to an only child, like
there's a it's a different kind of bond, it's a
different kind of relationship. So it's sad, But I also
can see all the mothers I've gained, all the siblings
I've gained, all the community that I've gained by You know,
(35:27):
when something comes out of your life, they say God
makes a new way. You know what I'm saying, Like,
God puts back in whatever you need. And so I
really believe that that a path has been forged for
more love to show up for expansive love, to show
up for people who show up for me as I am,
who do not require me to shrink myself, who don't
require me to shape shift. They don't require me. They
(35:49):
actually encourage and ask me to be who I am.
And there's no greater gift than that. And so I
if being myself is at the cost of losing that
relationship with my mother, I will say early on I
hated it, but at this point, now that I can
see what I've gained, I'm okay with that. I don't
(36:12):
love it. Be very clear, multiple shouts get to coexist.
I don't love it, but I'm at peace with it.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I told my mom Nad. I told her that, Mommy,
y'all haven't already lived or y'all are living. Yes, I
gotta live.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
They live there.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
And you know God, And I know God too, And
I know the God that knows me, God that knows you,
as the God that knows you, the God that knows
me knows me. I hope it's the same God. But
you know, I'm out of here. Yeah, And sometimes you
got to walk out in the wilderness to find yourself
and let everybody else just because everybody else had to
(36:55):
do it, or or people. Some people are afraid to
walk in the wilderness to find themselves. Then they turn
to and this is no bash on anybody's belief, but
they turn to religion or God, you know, to comfort
them because they don't know how to or they're afraid
(37:17):
to walk out there.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
And that was yes, yes, yes, yes, a thousand percent.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
We don't talk about it, but religion gives us comfort
from the unknown, because when we don't know what's going
on or understand what's going on, or somebody or something
random happens. A lot of this has to do with death,
we don't know how to explain that. And so, you know,
religion oftentimes gives us a comfortable place to land, and
I think it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
When it does that.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
But there's also versions of it and pieces of it
that try to shackle people and keep people in their boxes.
And I refuse to be shackled or refuse to be
kept in a box. I believe that the God.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
That loves me, source loves me as I am, made
me who.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
I am exactly exactly, that that's who I'm I'm afraid
to and the one over here, you know, which we
can get into you know, the colonizer God. That's not
my that's not mine, baby, The homophobic, transphobic, Yeah, racist
colonizer God, that's not mine.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I don't know him.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
I don't. I don't know him at all.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I don't know my God.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
And I said, I said this in.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
The Big Mouth where we had a long conversation about God.
I said, my God is a black woman. Quite honestly,
she's a black trans woman like that. That's my God. Okay,
and that's period. Trust, Trust, trust to believe.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Okay, I am a God, period.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
So y'all can have your little straight white man who
you know keeps seeting your boxes.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
That's not for me. And again this is this is
a very blanket statement.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Everyone has their own relationship to whoever their God is,
and I respect that. But when hate comes out of it,
When when when there's hate and there's judgment and division,
that's not that's the worst of church to me. I
think the best of church is community, is congregation. The
best of religion brings us together. The best of religion
(39:07):
says hey, I love you as you are and I'm
here for you. But the rest of it, nah, I
take it.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
People are going to have to pay atonement to God.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
On the Great Day, whatever day that is, whatever day
that is, however, but the great Day, they're gonna have
to pay atonement to God because I believe that when
they stand before whoever their creator is and they find
out that the Creator created everything.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yeah, and it was good. Yeah, That's how I feel
about my grandmother. My grandmother passed away fifteen years ago,
and I wrote this in my book You Talk My Shirt.
I'm also an author, but I said, you know, I,
in my fantasy, my grandmother, wherever she is, can see
that what what ever believes she might have held, if
(40:01):
she held them about homosexuality, was wrong, you know. And
my grandmother, by the way, was always very loving and kind.
In that space, my mother is doing a thing that's
quite weird for us, for our lineage. But I do
believe that if they weren't able to see it while
they were on the earthly plane, wherever they are on
the spiritual plane, they get it. They get it, They
(40:23):
see it, and they love you and they understand that
they were wrong or had misunderstandings, because.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
You know, the indoctrination is deep.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
You know, you are raised from jump people are told
from babies right that this is the way.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
This is wrong. Girls like pink, boys like blue.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
There's none of this is that they're told that from the jump,
and it's really hard to break that if somebody doesn't
interrupt that pattern for you. And so I believe that
in the spiritual plane, everyone knows the truth, and the
truth is as you are. You are divinely made, and
you were perfect exactly as you are. God or God
loves you. Come on, God loves the Queen.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
So I'd like to move to this section of my
show what we call it Rebel with the Cause, because
this is a perfect way to segue into Now. This
show is called Outlaws for a reason. An outlaw or
a pariah in our culture, it's often someone who ironically
has their heart in the right place, with someone with
the courage to speak up and stand out and push
(41:23):
back when it matters the most. Now, the guests on
my show The Outlaws are some of the most prominent
voices of our time. Their rebel hearts with challenging and
status quo that make a difference in the world. Now, Brandon,
tell me about a cause that you care deeply about
and what drives your passion and how can others join
(41:46):
the movement?
Speaker 4 (41:48):
My cause that I care deeply about is humanity and liberation,
and I always say messy, but like the question. So
the question that opens my book and that I pose
on the internet and I post any one, is who
would I be if society never got its hands on me?
Who would I be if society never got its hands
on me? That is, if I can boil my CAUs
(42:10):
down to one sentence, one question, that's it is spreading
that gospel. I want people to ask themselves that question,
Who would you be a society never got its hands
on you? What would you love? What would you wear?
Where would you live? Who would you be in relationship with?
Who would you be in community with? We are told
all these shoulds. You should do this, you should look
like this, you gotta have it. All this stuff we
(42:32):
get told, and meanwhile people are profiting off of that. Right.
The beauty industry is a beautiful example of that. They'll
tell you everything that's wrong with you so that you
buy something from them. And so people are looking in
the mirror hating themselves, hating what they look like, hating
their bodies, hating their skin, hating you know on the
TikTok when I was I went down a little rabbit
hole of the most beautiful, dark skinned people bleaching their skin,
(42:54):
and it's like, why why are you bleaching your skin?
Where'd you get that from? Somebody put that on you.
If somebody put that on you, that is not yours.
And so the cause that I have is liberating people
to themselves, telling them to be messy, to embrace a mess.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Okay, messy is human.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Okay, don't try it.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
Stop trying to be perfect, Polly. This is the first
time doing life. You are not going to get it right. Okay,
Well this is this is my first time being thirty seven.
I'm not going to get this thing right. But I
can experience it and I can do it the best
I can. If I rupture a relationship or something, I
can repair it. But allow me to be free, Allow
(43:35):
me to because you know these videos of these elders
who are like in their seventies, eighties, nineties.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
And what they all say.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
I love those videos, But what they all say, what
they wish they could go back, is they wish they
didn't listen to that person.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
They wish they did that thing.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
They wish they allow themselves to explore that it's all
these wishes of things they were told they should do
that they wish. They just like said fuck it, and
where them said, and I don't want to wait till
I'm ninety to like finally be like, I'll do what
the fuck I want. I want to do that as
soon as possible. So liberate yourself. Who would I be
a society never got its hands on you? Ask yourself
(44:11):
that question curiously, gently, and then get about the business
of doing that.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
You might not be able to change everything.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
But maybe if you discover that you're in a male
body and you desire to wear heels, then fucking put
the meals on, baby, honey.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Put on you a boot.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Put a boot, okay, Get you a nice little boot.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
I want to get you. And if you and if
you can't handle a.
Speaker 7 (44:35):
Boot, get you a kitten, kitten, a nice little meal, honey,
like one of the things that you want to do,
I got.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
I got a little glass kitten right now.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Kit.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I look, you know, I didn't want to be I
didn't want to be all heightened up.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
I want to be comfortable.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Skins who I am?
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Yes, Yeah, that's to me. That's the cause.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
The cause is liberating myself and helping others liberate themselves
because because we got to get free. As we can
see in this climate, they are trying to shackle us.
They are trying to put us in our boxes. And
the most important thing you can do for your life
is get curious. Ask yourself those hard questions and find
out the answers, and get free as soon as you can.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
All right, now, we're here at my favorite part of
the show, okay, and it is called ban it. Bit. Now,
some people out here are banning drag shows, L B, G,
T Q, I, A boot and even our very existent
(46:03):
But today we are flipping the script. What's something you
would ban if you ran the world?
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Oh you know I was thinking about this.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Sorry. Now here's how it works. Okay, we both each
get one minute, okay, to make our case for what
needs to go. Let me kick it off to show
you how it's done.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Please.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
I want to ban people who are in the way
of people living their lives completely. I just want to
ban it. I want to ban you, bitch. If my
existence is bothering you to the point where you are
sick and tired of seeing me, close your eyes for good.
I just want to ban you. This world has was
not built in design specifically and and intricately specifically for you.
(46:55):
We were given this place for all of us to coexist.
And if you don't want to coexist with something that
don't look like you, that isn't built like you, is
in shape like you, isn't a beautiful or ugly like you, girl,
I want to ban you. I want you to get
on the first rocket ship tomorrow and crash land that bitch.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
On the moon and stay there, yes, and truly.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
See what it's like to live somewhere, honey alone, because
that's where you need to be alone. Bitch, I'm banning you,
bitch your band I bean it.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
Wow, wow, absolutely I agree.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Now okay, now that's my minute, and I said what
I said it bit okay, all right now producers, Brandon,
you have the floor. Reset the timer for one minute,
coming in, all right, Gorge Brandon, your time starts in.
Speaker 4 (48:02):
I would like to ban people who clip their nails
in public, because what kind of.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Fresh hell is this?
Speaker 4 (48:08):
What kind of demonic ceremonial practice is that, y'all? Can
that is a private activity like shaving your pubs or
belting defying gravity when you know you can't sing.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
That's for private.
Speaker 4 (48:18):
I hate people clipping their nails in public, and you've
seen it as much as I hate a straight, white,
unqualified man succeed. I don't like to see it, okay,
and I really think, like you know, it makes me sick.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
It makes my blood boil, you know.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
I feel like and then be clipping it and it
sounds like I'm like crickets masturbating, you know, or it
sounds like keubler elves fucking in a little tree. I
don't like to hear it. I don't like to see it.
People do it on the subway, they do it in
the waiting room of the urgent care and I'm already
sick as it is. They got the nail shards flying
around like a frisbee, hitting you in the side of
the face like a straight bullet. I do not like it.
(48:51):
Ban clipping your nails in public. I want you to
clip your nails because please don't be cutting up by pussies,
but please do not cut it in public. That shit
is to me, Y'll find another devil to worship, find
another devil to worship. Please ban it, bitch, That's it.
Oh my god, get off my chest. Well let's talk
(49:16):
about that.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
So it seems like that you've had a trauma.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah, I don't like it. People.
Speaker 4 (49:24):
I grew to New York and so people on the
sabre always trying to clip like that's the time they.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Decide to click their nails.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
And you know when you.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Clip it, they fly. So it's not like.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
It's not like going in the little paper. It's just
like it flies and you're like.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Have you seen it doing the to nails?
Speaker 3 (49:38):
And guess I have. And that's crazier to me.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
They and they flip flops and they put the they
put the leg up like this and just like that.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
What is that? You gotta be real confident for that.
And I want to fight.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
I hear a lot of trauma going on.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
It really fucks me up. I don't know what it is.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
That and soup. Please don't serve me soup.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
That's crazy. Don't I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
Don't you do that to me. Don't you invite me
over the house for some for some soup. Invite me
over for a meal. I want you to put something
in that but a super sandwich. Okay, work, that's there.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
Needs to be something else, something else, the soup and
the salad.
Speaker 4 (50:16):
Go fuck yourself what you're talking about, lettuce and brath girl,
Bravey just as much as the next bitch.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
But no, I mean they might be preparing you for
something later. Oh well, in that case, preparing me.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Clean se.
Speaker 8 (50:33):
In that case, doll pure for heat as long as
I'm getting meat, yes, and pure for you know how
this pure for men, pure for pure for none, soup brath.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
So for me, the bad part for me. I'm just
where we are now, listening to your story, yeah, my
story running parallel with yours, and then in watching how
our society is governed or or trying to be governed
by people who just I don't want to look at
anything else but what looks like me. Why would you
want to walk and live in a bland world.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
So boring, so boring?
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I love it in a colorless world, boring. You need
the rainbow, honey, come on, give me the full rainbow.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
I want.
Speaker 4 (51:23):
I want other cultures, other experiences. That's how I like.
Life is so beautiful and massive and complex, and for
me to just be around people who look and think
like that's just crazy. I want the expansion. I want
the other experiences. I want to know your walk of life.
It grows my heart, it grows my existence, and I
hope that my existence grows yours.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
But this, like, let's keep everything the same.
Speaker 4 (51:46):
Y'all are bored and you're scared, and you you belong
on that rocket ship.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
To Mars and let it crash land.
Speaker 4 (51:55):
Don't even make it tomorrow because you don't deserve to
make it to where you.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Don't even don't even make it crash layer all the
damn moood. Honey, Yes, just live there, girl, girl, Yes,
you'll say, you'll be rushing trying to get back to earth.
Speaker 9 (52:12):
Like, wait a minute, I'm okay with those trading now, honey,
where are those training? Wait a minute and hit My
skin is breaking out. If somebody gonna.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Make a new cream. We need each other, We need
each other. Yes, friend, I love you.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
I love you so much.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
I love you, love you, love you. When you are
in Atlanta.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Come on, I'm coming to see you first.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Soon, Come and sit at the house my Christian mother.
You know she she you're welcome here. She ain't gonna
beat you down by about the book. She gonna cook
you something. It's gonna it might be a soup on
the side.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Listen. If it's it's it's for mama, I'll have it.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
I have but well then you're in Atlanta, so I'll
tell her Mama. Uh, they need brath Holly, and they're
visiting and visiting the Rock. They may have ani weekend
cure for my mind.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
Now.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yes, I love you, friend, I love love so much.
I love thank you so much for doing this with me.
You are amazing, You're the best kids, and you're still
the sexiest Caribbean non binary pollyamorous, Polly, You're a thing
person that I.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Know, my cracker. Okay, I love you.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I want.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Did we do it?
Speaker 3 (53:37):
Did we do it?
Speaker 1 (53:38):
We did it? Outlaws is a production of the Outspoken
Network from iHeart Podcasts and Turtle Run Entertainment. Created by
Tyler Rabnowitz and Olivia Piece. I'm your host, Tis Madison.
We are executive produced by Tyler Rebnowitz, Maya Howard, and
Tis Madison. Our supervising producer is Jessica cry Chick, and
(54:00):
our producers are Joey pat and Common Bra. Our video
editor is Tyler Rabinowitz and our sound editor is Jes Krnc.
Our associate producer is Trent High Tower Special thanks to
our producer's assistant, Daniel Rabinowitz. Our theme song is composed
by Wazi. Merrit Our show art is by Pablo Martinina.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
Catch you next week, Honey,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!