May 20, 2025 • 62 mins
This week on "Outlaws," it's... a Femininomenon! A what?! A FEMININOMENON.
Today, our host TS Madison is joined by your favorite artist’s favorite artist and your favorite drag queen’s favorite drag queen. Chappell Roan—Grammy Award winner and visionary Super Graphic Ultra Modern Girl behind “Pink Pony Club” and “Good Luck, Babe”—joins forces with her drag mother Sasha Colby, winner of RuPaul’s Drag Race Season 15 and the celebrated 2012 Miss Continental. Together, the Hawaiian queen and Midwest princess form the most iconic mother-daughter duo since Miss Mary and TS Madison. Today they’re pulling up to Auntie Madison's place for some overdue family time in a shimmering, shade-filled, and unforgettable episode of "Outlaws"—only our second ever!
Madison opens the show with heartfelt gratitude, bestowing “Niece” status upon Chappell for doing what you're supposed to do in big spaces: speak up, show up, and advocate fiercely for LGBTQIA+ visibility. Meanwhile, Sasha receives her flowers as Madison recalls binge-watching her pageant tapes and knowing—when she saw her strut onto the Drag Race Main Stage—“Those girls in the back better be ready!”
This is the best crossover event to hit Queer Media since Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande held space with Tracy Gilchrist. This episode has it all: Sasha recounts sneaking into Venus Nightclub in Hawaii and witnessing Miss Continental trailblazers like Yoshiko Oshiro, instantly thinking, "Sign me up!!!" Chappell reflects on the day she realized she could sing (and her parents’ adorably Midwestern response). The trio bonds over religious guilt, forbidden blue eyeshadow, and the sacred act of setting boundaries. There’s an impromptu duet of “The Christmas Song.” There’s a karma spell. And apparently, there are plans for a "Continental Night" where Sasha’s pulling out the VHS tapes?! We're not going to ask for an invite—because in this house we respect boundaries—but if y’all want to go live for 2 minutes so we can live vicariously... we wouldn’t be mad.
And finally, Madison launches her new favorite segment: "Ban It, Bitch!" While certain politicians try to ban drag shows, LGBTQ+ books, and the very existence of transgender people, we’re flipping the script, because all that energy could be redirected toward the things that really gotta go. We're looking at you, cork shoes! Fish photos on dating apps! Pop Crave?! Ban it. Nothing is safe from the Outlaws gavel—and you might want to check your comment section etiquette before Madison checks it for you.
Special thanks to Chappell and Sasha for saying yes and making the time to appear on "Outlaws" amidst their busy schedules—and doing so before we’d even dropped an episode. “Casting Karma Spells” is the blueprint for everything we hope this podcast can be: an hour of real talk with chosen family, where we can each shed our armor and own our stories. We simply couldn’t have made this episode without the hardworking teams behind these legends, along with our partners at iHeart.
"Outlaws" is hosted by TS Madison, and is part of the Outspoken Network from iHeartPodcasts, co-produced by Turtle Run Entertainment.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Every time I open up my mouth up and goes
out no wait, no wind wodd yourself, get a job,
ricking honey, Rick.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Chase.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm black like that about living gets color easy. This
is Outlaws with Tears Medicine. Hey y'all, Hey, thank you,
ladies both for being here on the Outlaws Podcast with
ts massive. Ladies and gentlemen, listen, I am so excited
(00:52):
to be sitting here today with royalty on both sides.
We have a young princess and a demure queen, and
I am really so excited to be here doing this
because I ran into one of the royal ladies at
(01:13):
the VMA's and I also have been watching one of
the Royal ladies since I was a kid. Yes, I
have been a kid before. Yes, don't let don't let
this youthfulness fool you. I was younger than this at
one time. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like for you right
now to put your hands together for Sasha Colby and
(01:34):
Chappell Roan. Nobody ain't clapping the ladies. I am honored
to have you both on this podcast because this has
been a work in progress that we've been working on
for a very very very long time, and as funny
as it may sound, we've got a lot of nose.
(01:58):
We have a lot of nose. And I said, yes,
and I want you to know how important it is.
I just want to start from the gate with this chapel,
how important it is for you to be sitting here
and for you to be a champion for lbgt Q
i A and specifically for transgender women's rights, for transgender
(02:23):
women's existence, for championing we transgender people as human beings.
And I don't think that people really understand the magnitude
because your star just came in and then just took
over over the skies. For someone to have presence and
(02:46):
use their presence to speak for the voiceless, we thank you,
we salute you, we support you, we love you for that,
because there are a lot of people in this world
who say, oh, I love the girls. This is Bu'll
(03:07):
get somewhere and be like, thank you, the recording Academy,
good night. No, when you walk into a space, you've
let it be known I'm here because others were there,
and this particular group of people are the reason why
there's gas to fuel my star. And I just wanted
(03:30):
to look directly at you and tell you thank you
for that. Thank you so much. You don't understand how
your presence is so important and that we people need
to take a note from your pad and know that
you are supposed to do this. This is what you're
(03:52):
supposed to do when you get into big spaces. Thank you,
Thank you, niece.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Thank you, thank you. Oh my god, thank you for
saying that.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, it's important that you know this. Now, my sister
over here. I was so elated to see you walk
out on that stage at RuPaul's Drag Race. What season
was it, y'all? Fifteen eighteen? Yes, because you mean so
(04:24):
RuPaul's Drag Race fifteen. And I watched you walk out
on that stage, and I said, right then and there, honey,
y'all might as well give her to two hundred thousand dollars.
She's already won. I have been watching you since I
was a young girl. I've watched you entertain I've watched
(04:46):
you listen when you came through and you gave us
all the sickeningness that you are on those pageant tapes,
and you made Jim Flint give you that crown. Every
young girl who's been a trans woman has always wanted
to vie for the title of Miss Continental, and you know,
(05:10):
we watched, we've watched all the girls come through battle
and compete, and you came and shook it up. But
I've been I have been watching you before, like because
you've you've you've you've read for other titles, and you know,
you've always been this petite girl. Honey, Hawaii, Hawaii, Hawaii.
You've been always Hawaii, you know. And I'm doing all
(05:33):
this movement and stuff like this. But when you're when
you're from I'm from Miami, and so when you're at Florida, girl,
they always tell you, oh girl, those girls from Honolulu, Hawaii, Thailand,
Oh girl, honey, those girls, those other girls, you know.
And so when you won, and I just knew when
you came out on Drag Race, I was like, oh girl,
(05:54):
she's gonna eat this. The rest of these girls in
the back bed all be ready, but I will tell
you this, you may those girls step they put the up.
You made those girls compete on your season. You made
them compete because they knew they were in the presence
of royalty. And they also knew that they were in
the presence of a fierce competitor. I thank you for
(06:19):
existing and for not only taking your your crown from
Continental and not letting it stop there, and to get
on the largest stage in the world and say this
is mine. Thanks and thank you, yes, honestly, thank you. Ladies.
You are on the podcast of the Outlaws podcast with
(06:43):
TS Madison. So I'm going to start with you, Chapel.
There's a segment we call it's called talk your Shit,
and it's time for you to talk your shit in
this episode or excuse me, this segment we ask who
you are, what you do, what are you proud of?
(07:06):
And in this moment, these are your times to shine. So,
chap I'm gonna start with you. Who are you and
what do you do? As if you just didn't.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
I'm a singer and I write songs, but I'm also
a drag queen.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Why and.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I would say I'm fierce. I might say I'm fierce,
and I would also say I've broken mini records, I've
broken MANI records with the girls. And I feel an
imposter syndrome sometimes, like just say saying this. I know
(07:48):
that when I read like the podcasts like okay, this
is what to expect like this is where you talk
your shit. I was like, I've never done that before,
so yeah, I'm a virgin, so this is crazy for
me to actually say, but I just want to grammy.
I just won two Brits. I just I've won the
(08:10):
Billboard Artists of the Year, i won BBC ones Artists
Best Artists. Like, We've done a lot this year and
broke lolla pluzas, like the biggest crowd of all time,
broke some records at goftball just like sold out a
massive tour.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Like that.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
It's like we are doing good considering I was literally
I was dropped in twenty twenty working the drive through
and was about to give up on everything, and pulled
(08:50):
myself together and here we are now. So I'm a
singer all together, but also a girlie who is very
like against the machine, and I love the industry and
of like very against what the pop girls are supposed
to be doing. I would say, what like aligned with
(09:11):
Sinead O'Connor.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So basically what my niece just said, you can fuck
with me. I'm new and I came in and broke records.
I'm that girl with all the accolades, with all the accolades,
all the accolades. Yeah, you so to get.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
It and to be like actually being able to say
it in a space where you can feel safe to
say that is like it's.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Hard to It's like actually like hard for me to
say that.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Why why why do you think it's hard for you
to say it?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Well, because I grew up like midwestern girly and like
always modesty is hottest, and like modesty also meaning like
your pride is very humble, you know, which it is
absolutely important, and like I have a hard time like
when is it too much? When is it prideful? When
(10:07):
is it too humble? When is it not giving yourself
enough credit?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
But it's hard for me to.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Just like to feel like I'm not boasting about myself, but.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
It is awesome. What can I ask you? What's your sign?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Pisces? But I'm on the Cusps. I'm the nineteenth February nineteen,
so you're almost in Aries almost Aquarius.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Oh so you're so you're because I'm a Libra scorpio.
Oh yeah, and I have a Piscey's moon.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Oh I have a Libra moon or maybe not, maybe
it's a labor right, Like I don't know actually the
girls now.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So you do? So do you throw thought over your
shoulder sometimes?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
So I'm not I'm not a I'm not a Oh.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
You're not a bru ha? Well you are magic. I'd
like for you to know that you have the right
to talk your ship because this is These are things
that people have said that you couldn't do. It's true,
and so there's always a time to talk your ship,
especially when you know your capabilities and what you have done.
(11:24):
And then you have people like me that's gonna come
back here and be like, yes, eat them up, fuck
them holes up. Don't you put a rubber on now, niece,
this is the time for you to talk your ship.
Who am I? My name is Sasha Kobe.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
I'm a let's see, actress, performer, musician, activist, mother, goddess,
all of it for miscontinental winner of Drag Race Season fifteen. Yeah,
just kind of enjoying life and uh, reaping the rewards
(12:04):
and the you know, like from your twenties to forties,
it's like you plant your seeds to make all the
things that you can reap. And I'm just turned forty
and I'm about to reap.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Oh yes, well, I'm forty, said, I'll be forty eight
this year. Yes, and I think that this is the
time that you really, you know, get into the reaping
of things. But here's the thing. Don't ever put don't
ever let age. And this is for you two niece,
don't ever let age like like, oh, if I'm not
(12:35):
if I'm not thirty, I can't do this. If I'm forty,
I can't. It comes when it's supposed to, just like
your star came exactly when it was supposed to. I'd
like to back up just a tiny bit. And so
(12:58):
you used to work in a drive through, you said,
I worked.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
At Scooter's Coffee drive through Kiosk.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And you are from the Midwest, and in the Midwest
they told you would just be humble, like you've heard
this countless time, you too, right.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Oh yeah, it's very like big in Hawaii, like don't
be grand, don't act out of pocket, like yeah, yeah, mist.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Wrapped yourself down and like mine was I think wrapped
up in like guilt of like Christian Christian.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Oh yeah, we definitely had like Jehovah's witness gilt.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
There were Jehovah.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, so you were Jehovah's Witness grew up that, Yeah,
my family still is or no.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
And what was your religious I was like Christian, non
denominational kind of, but it was. It's murky, it's murky
what denomination it actually was.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
But what have you found in your beliefs on both less?
Because listen, I'm from the South, Yeah, so that means
I was Baptist immediately. Yeah. And christ and Christianity and
all of that stuff has been like this thing that
has governed us all and I think that I think
that religion has been the biggest detriment to human beings
(14:19):
and being I'm black. I always say to us for
as black as a black person, I feel like there's
been the biggest detriment to the Black community religion, not relationship.
Because I do believe that both of you ladies have
some belief system and what you believe in that makes
that you draw your power from. But you're just not
(14:39):
governed by religion or the religious aspects of everything. And
so when you were saying you feel guilty or you
felt guilty about being a when do I turn on
my story sea and like it's like, hey, I have
to be humb like let me be humble. That's something
(15:03):
that they will embed in you as do you identify
as queer, that is something that they embed in you
as a person that's queer to walk behind yeah, or
to dumb down, dumbed down self monitor. Yeah. That was
a lot like the shame.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Like families, My family's love came with was always attached
to shame, and there was always that level of like
I love you, but not don't want to be seen
with you in public, or I love you, but can
you go outside the brothers and sisters are coming, like
go hide somewhere.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
It's it was always this.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Level of they want to treat me like a human,
but they're nervous that they can't. Like it's also absolute
when you come with man made religion. You know, I'm
a spiritual person. I believe in this spirituality and like
a connection with something. But to say that organized religion
isn't just another way to oppress POCS, queer people, well,
(16:00):
it's to control.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I do believe that it was all put together to control,
because if we're both speaking from a place of a
loving God, God hasn't told any of these people that
are doing whatever they're doing right now especially in this
regime that we're under right now. God hasn't told any
of those people to do any of the things that
they're doing, because if you look at you and you
(16:23):
and me, we're human beings. We are humans that all
of us in this room deserve the right to live.
We deserve the right to eat, we deserve the right
to love. We deserve those rights. And so this regime
that we're under right now is trying to strip us
all from those rights. And that is why back to you,
(16:43):
my niece, your voice is important because you can walk
in a room and you are They can see you
as a beautiful white woman who can sing, who has privilege.
For you to take that and take moments of that
(17:05):
and understand those moments that you have and say, hey,
all of you that are watching me right now, queer rules, bitch.
You know, we don't have enough of that. We don't
have enough of those people. We have so many people
talking about Holly love us, I love you, I love you,
love you. But then when it comes down to it,
you go in the voters in the booth and you
(17:27):
vote for something that's a financially beneficial for you instead
of from a human aspect of it. So I take
it that you're not Jehovah's witness anymore.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
No, no, I stop. Actually, when I was like fourteen,
i'd gotten into there was just like a ways gossip
in the church, you know, like people who are just
the whole thing with like Jehovah's Witness. Which is hilarious
is they market is as a place where you want
to spend eternity with these people. I don't even want
to spend like two hours on a Sunday with you.
(18:02):
I was an eternity with you like that is insane.
So I just kind of saw pass it and I
told my parents, I really don't like the hypocrisy that
me being queer or me being outwardly like feminine at
fourteen is a bigger sin than the guy who's like
having me being outwardly queer or like outwardly feminine at
fourteen was a bigger sin than that guy who's going to.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Have who got his you can be I'd like for
you to be as vulgar. Listen, listen, my nieces. I
need for y'all to be as vulgar as you like
here because this is where you can express you know.
I'm not one of those places where where they come in.
I need you to monitor no cuss, fuss express. You
know how you was tearing it on on the carpet,
(18:53):
tearing reporter up. All of that type of stuff drew
me into you like now I like a person and
that will wear you out and we're like, hey, I
know you remember that time when I was over and
I was like, yes, eat them up. Here's where you
can do all of that stuff. You know, because I
do that, you know, I'll tell the Bisi to eat
(19:14):
glass in our heart, eat a glass, dick, I take it.
I go to the video. Yes, so let's talk about
origin story here in this part of the podcast. I
want either or both of you to tell me a
turning point, an experience, or a source of inspiration or
(19:34):
a Eureka moment that shape your paths today. Origin story
that made me like this monster. Yes, I think hmmm.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
One of like the first origin stories was me at
like seventeen. I was like, so I graduated at eighteen
and like literally nineteen tips like immediately like started to
the sex work and did all the things I had
to do in order to get this to look the
way I wanted to and I was very impatient, stubborn
gal so she uh yeah, she was seventeen. I was
(20:15):
like still like closeted, like like not really sure if
I could be gay or not. And my best friends
like took me to my first drag show and I
stuck into an eighteen overclub and I sat right down
in the middle.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
And it was in Hawaii.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
It's a place called Venus, and it was like the
the legend queen there. It was her fortieth so she
had like the best of the best Taiko her name's Iko, Yeah, Okay,
she actually owns a Miss Universal show queen in Hawaii.
But it was her fortieth and she had the best
of the best performing for her show. And that's where
(20:50):
I saw like the best trans drag, the best like
boy drag, the best like what of what Hawaii had
to offer, And a lot of it was really did
around Miss Continental because Continental actually and the Baton where
Jim Flint made Continental, of the first cast of people
were actually from Hawaii. They were part of the Glades
(21:11):
in the nineteen sixties and seventies, Wow, and he brought
them to Chicago. So there's a connection between the pageant
world and like Continental and Hawaii that we hold like
really close.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So I got to.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
See like Yoshiko Shiro, I got to see these amazing
Continental performers, drag performers, trans women. I saw kind of
Jacobs for the first time, Dina Jacobs, Like it was
incredible and that was like sign me up, Like.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I was so yoshik O Shiro she won on.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Yes, she was the beautiful, the little Asian, Yes, the
beautiful She Crown Candice who's from Maui.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So it's like Hawaii gro Crown Hawaii girl. Wow. Yeah,
so you kind of lack have an so you are
a part of the origin story of Continental. It's kind
of yeah, when I go home to Hawaii, I'll go
and we have like a puttina, which is a party,
and the elder femmes, elder Hawaiians all of them will
come out and like we'll have a big barbecue at
(22:07):
the beach and I get to see like these legends
that I used to watch or like Google no, like
ask Jeeves because it was that it was like the
beginning of like Netscape.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
But I would like try to look up drag Queen
and you know, Mimi Marks to come up where maya
Douglas and we would look at all these amazing trans women.
They were all trans women that were doing drag. You know, wow,
like chili pepper, chili peppery.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Oh my god, listen, I'm sitting here getting so excited
because I've watched these Take niece, I want you to
have I want you to have your I really want
you to have your mom take you in there and
just when you're not busy because you're ruling the world,
I really want you to have your mom sit down
and just like put on the big screen and just
(22:51):
put in a VH get an old VHS M see
you young r with that over there, and just like
get all the pageant taps so that you can be like,
oh gosh, that's what I had, like in nights, like
my drag mom did to me, like had a bucket
of like from nineteen eighty four, yeah, four, And I
(23:13):
just watched Did you ever compete in MBU?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
No?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
They wanted me to, but I never did. I really wish.
I only did Continental.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Actually, yeah, I did Continental four times before I won,
so I did some prelims, but I used to judge
after I won.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
I judged missus k U s a few times. Have
you So you never done EO, No, I never did.
I always wanted to, but I'm like, once I got
con then I was like, so you left Continental right
because I'm going to I'm going to the.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I found that little like shoot where you could just
like go down, I just take a little shortcut.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Wow, now chapel top. I'd like to know what's what's
the origins or what got you to be to the
place that you are now, Like what created this monster?
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Gay clubs? Go go dancers specifically, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
So as a Christian woman, you left out of the
church and went straight to the gay clubs, Yes, and
watched all the go go dancers.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I was in shock and like I was in awe,
and it was just like how do I how do
I be them? Just watching go go dancers? And I
always wanted to feel sexy in that way because I
felt so shameful about being sexy. There was like this
(24:45):
weird thing in my head that I thought the more
modest you were, like the better woman you were, or
like the more kind of subdued, the more.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
You will be respected.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
And I just realized like everything that was I was
taught that was like really disrespected, like sex work, gay people, drag, queens,
blue eyeshadow, like it could be down to the long nails, like.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It's wait a minute, you know what I mean? Wait,
I need you to break down the blue eyes shadow
for me.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
It's like stigmatized.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
It's like, well, one like.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Love seventeen magazine, but like when I would read so
much seventeen magazine and never you know, when I was
a teenager, was like no, if you have blue eyes,
no blue eyes shadow. And like also blue eyes shadow
was just like so wrapped up in drag within sex work,
within performance, Like so I didn't ever do anything.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So can I tell you a secret? Yeah, ready for
a secret? You know where the blue eyes shadow being
tied into six work from. No, have you ever seen
the movie Deep Throat? I've heard, but never actually watched it. Okay,
when they brought movies to cinema back in the seventies,
(26:14):
majority of the women that were a part of the
Deep Throat movie they had blue eyeshaw. And you didn't
make me realize this until I started to this conversation
right here watching Deep Throat. Oh my god, what was
her name? Somebody helped me. Somebody other helped me, was
it They used to have blue eyeshadow on all the
(26:42):
beautiful girls, Like if the girls were beautiful like that,
the lashes would be long and the eyeshadow would be
like a deep blue. It was Linda Lovelace. Listen, listen,
you listen your back into some stuff like you know
about how listen. Sex has been so demonized when this
(27:04):
is it's how we all got here. We've explored our
best songs that we've written or heard from some sexual experience.
I love the guy, I hate him now it's because
he fucked you good both times. The was good on
each of the times. You loved it for it, and
(27:25):
now you hate him because he gave it to you.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Then we have a lot of sex workers and prostitution whatever.
Like blue eyes shadow. I love a deep and tomorrow
I'm gonna have a very deep royal blue eyeshadow, No wonder,
royal blue is my favorite color. But that is so
crazy that you say that you were demonized for blue eyeshadow.
(27:50):
You really were. You were really religiously whooped. Yeah I
was too, but I said no more of that shit.
God knew when I came to this word that I
was going to suck dick. He knew it. He knew it. Man,
he's watched me do it and still has given me
(28:11):
life and breath every day. Won't he do it? I
want to know when did you know that you had
a gift of song that you can sing?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
When I was thirteen and I auditioned for like the
Christmas talent show in my middle school, what did you sing?
The Christmas song? Like chestnuts roasting on an open fire? Song?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Can I get a little bit right now? It's a
little bit?
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Let me beat you. What's key chess?
Speaker 5 (28:42):
Not roasting on an open fire? Mm hmm, jack frost
snipping at your nose?
Speaker 1 (28:52):
You tie? Keep going because I want to join it. Okay,
I want to I want.
Speaker 5 (28:56):
To join Okay, join you tie Carols VG song by
why Far.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Everybody you know.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
Turkey and some missletoe op do make this bibit right
right right?
Speaker 1 (29:26):
And you knew then that you could sing? So what
did your parents know that you could sing? That day?
That day?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
That day?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
And did they say slow down, grubby humble?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
No, They're like, you're going to America's Got Talent because
everyone in the Midwest does you either go to American
Idol or America's got talent if you can sing. I
still get asked that. I still get asked that. Some
someone will say, like, you go on American Idol? When
are you going to go?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
It's like you're not passing American Idol? Do you not?
Did you not? Just hear me say, honey, I won this,
I won that. I sold out to a girl. Honey,
are you crazy? And I don't wear blue eyeshadows. I'd
like to get to this part of our show. It's
called the villain era. Oh, I want to start with
(30:16):
you because I've watched you. I've watched you and I've
been over there, like, cut them, girl, I've been listen,
I've been watching you. I want to pass you my
razor blade. Every time you every time you turn your
beautiful gown around and you see it and you catch
somebody out there that you want to tear up, I'll
be like, girl here needs sing on my razor blade.
Cut them. So now the villain era is you know,
(30:37):
every outlaw gets labeled a villain at some point, often
when you're just trying to live your truth and do
your best. Now, your villain era could be a time
where you stop people pleasing a time you stood up
for yourself or maybe made a mistake, maybe you did
something that sparked some controversy, or maybe the world just
(30:58):
simply wasn't read for you. Now, ladies, I'd like to
know what was your villain era and what did you
learn from it.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
I feel like I already said some of my villain era.
I felt like my villain era was when I was
Britney spears.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Give me more.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Well, I thought it was because when I was queer
as like an adolescent, and I was a villainized in
religion or in my home and not feeling safe there.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
But if I have a few more villain errors, let
me think of something.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Do you ever were you ever made to feel like
a villain on drag Race or not because of drag
Race or like the internet villain for anything?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
You know, that is something that I am coming uh
to grips with. Yeah, I was gonna say, like right now,
it's a very misunderstood villain era. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I mean for a lot of trans people for like
that definitely, definitely. I feel like, you know, there's a
lot of.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
A lot of uh eyes just on you, you know,
when we're just trying to like be and make our
art and create, and if we're not doing what you
know half of these viewers or these people on social
media are saying, then you know we're not doing it
right or we're being told.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I really like try so hard to just like.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Sit on my hands when I'm like looking at these
comments and stuff and I'm like, just don't.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Even so I'm trying not to because you know how
I get down. I know, I do the thing where
I write it all out and then I'll screenshot it
and I'll send it to my friends and then I'm like,
oh no, because I don't know. But I just feel like.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
I don't want to give anybody AMMO. But that's just
like so much fear based, like especially just feeling like
uncomfortable to speak your your mind or your cheap at
all right now, but especially being on a show that
for me, it was a competition show. It was a
show that I got to showcase all that I love
with this social part of it that really will make you,
(32:59):
you know, have friction with your castmates or or have
friction with yourself too, and that comes off on the
television show. And then it's kind of based on what
other people receive you as and it and oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
But I'm yes, I do believe in the edits.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
But I I never said anything you could edit bad,
So I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, you can't.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
You can't.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
If you don't blame it on the edit. You gotta
blame it on the on what you say.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Yeah, yeah, if there's something to edit, then they'll they'll
definitely grab to it, especially if you have nothing else
to offer, right a girl, Because I've judged.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Chapel my villain era. I mean I think that I've
had like three in the past nine months, probably just
because I was a new girl in the pop game,
where I was like, I don't give a fuck what
you say to these girls who have been doing since
they were ten, and told that like this is okay,
(34:03):
that how they how you're treated like I'm I was.
I did not get like famous until I was like
twenty six, so I like had a lot of time
to realize like, oh, this is what it's like to
be an adult and how to be like respected in
(34:24):
a job like I got treated. I've been treated better
at like my donut shop job than I have on
a fucking carpet like and in the fucking I mean
people in the news treat me worse than like how
customers did. It's crazy. And so I think when I
started to say, don't talk to me like that, I'm
(34:47):
not going to show up for blah blah blah blah,
like I don't want to. That doesn't mean that I'm
a villain or ungrateful for what I have. It's like,
why is this customary? Like this is it's so it's
so I know I always say abusive, but like when
(35:10):
I was walking on the carpet for the first time
and people just yelling your name, your name, your name,
just screaming it at you, I'm like, what if I
like had so much trauma from a parent or like
a caregiver screaming my name at me constantly, constantly, constantly,
and then you're supposed to like you walk on a
(35:30):
carpet and that's exactly what's happening, and it's so scary
because you haven't been yelled at in a long time
and your body just you you have to ignore all
all fight or flight and just look hot. Like So
that is one like the carpet situation when I was
like fuck you, like fuck you, like you can't talk
(35:51):
to me like that. An immediate villain, because there's not
many girls who are new in the game that can
do that and get away with it. Like, I thought
it was really interesting reading something about how there's so
(36:14):
much like love for like in an apologies for people
like Brittany, or for people like Paris and Lindsay Lohan
who had such an people were so evil to them,
and how like as a community we need to apologize
to Brittany. I'm like absolutely, but like also that behavior
(36:41):
is still being You're still doing it, and it's just like,
do you want me to just get to the point
where I become agoraphobic or so stressed out or so
anxious to perform or whatever that I don't like you
want me to get to that point, because if I
don't say anything, I will if I do not stand
(37:03):
up for myself, I will quit because I cannot bear this,
Like I cannot bear people touching me who do I
don't know. I cannot bear people following me and like
it's really scary, or I cannot bear people saying I'm
something I'm not. That's what's really hard online. People just
(37:29):
assume you're the villain. I can't do this if I'm
not trying to like protect who I am. Otherwise I
will be either quit or don't or just like so
severely depressed. I have to go back to the hospital.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Libes. Yeah, So would you say that you're fighting back
for Britney, for Lindsey, for all the girls who had
to just stand back and just like take it, Like,
would you say you're you're You're like nah, fuck that,
(38:10):
I'm changing the way. I'm changing this direction now.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
I think for like all the girls with you right now,
right like all the like Sabrina Carpenters and all the
girls that like, yeah, are trying to you know, may
be successful and be artists, Like you're.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Not just saying that you can't do that to me.
You can't do that to any of that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
And also like Brittany was saying this, the things I
was saying, that's like the saddest part is like the
girls have been saying like fuck you get on my
face and no one has listened. And like, because they
have laid the groundwork, I can say what I did,
Like they walked so I could run.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And it's the same with like I mean, it's the
same with like Madonna wearing I can wear this right now,
this like Bridle mcdonnald Freu can sacrifice yourself on that MTV. Yeah,
in stage like like a virgin, Like a virgin.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
I will tell you that there's something that you said
in your response to this that resonated with me very heavy,
because I know you've seen me, and I know you've
seen me on drag Race whatever, and I know, sister,
you're seeing me. I go through a lot of stuff
online too, just because I'm loud, liveing in color. And
(39:32):
you said something just now was that you're not allowed.
I was doing a series on my Instagram letting bitches know. Bitch,
you're not allowed. You're not allowed to read my body
when you're you can't tell me that I'm bad body.
When you're built like a baked potato. You can't tell
me that my body is awful. When you're shaped like
(39:53):
a slurpy. You're not gonna do that. You're not gonna
be in my comment section doing all of this stuff
because I'm gonna take your fucking picture and I'm gonna
post your picture up there with your comment and I'm
gonna say you're not allowed. You can't do this. And
I think that what has happened is is that that
society has said, oh you're a star, let them eat
(40:14):
you up. You're making money. So the trade off is
when you're rich, your famous, you'll get to do whatever
you want to do. So these people get to say
nasty shit to you, and you should be so booked
and busy that you can't say nothing back because Ikasasha,
you said that you'll write stuff and then you'll send
it to your friend and then you'll delete it. Say
that shit. Chapel said, fuck you, You're not gonna be
(40:38):
able to say that to me. Don't call my name
like that, don't put remember that like like people have
to start breaking out of the mole so that it
can it can it can change. Like I'm letting those
people know I started on the internet. Honey, you found
me on the internet. And they always say, well, what
would Beyonce do? Okay, Beyonce in her music because that's
(41:02):
her craft. My craft is www dot And so if
you hit me while we in ww dot, I'm gonna
wwe on your hand. That's how that's gonna work. And
so moving forward, are like, does it make? Does it?
(41:22):
Are you relieved every time that you get the opportunity
to to be like, yo, hold up, I'm not ready
to turn to the side. I don't want to give
that picture yet. I'm not ready chill for a second.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Well, I will say, like walking on the Grammy's carpet,
not one person disrespected me. Not one person didn't even
like scream at me. And they wouldn't even call me
chupl They said, miss round, sweetheart? Can you turn miss round?
Miss round? It changed, and it's changed with fan behavior too,
Like that's what's so amazing also about the internet, like
(42:02):
people hate it when you call them out and immediately
it's like defensive you you, how dare you say I
can't come up and take a photo with you? I
deserve too. And it's like I told people how I feel,
I feel uncomfortable, and people listened, boundaries, boundaries, who listened,
And it's like it's it's hard to not get into
(42:30):
internet battles because it's like one, a lot of those
are bots. I have to remind myself, like a lot
of those just aren't even people. There's fucking bots. But two,
like it hurts my feelings too much. It literally just
the comments hurt my feelings too much. Yeah, it hurts
my feelings, and like, so I just don't even open them.
(42:52):
But my therapist we're talking about it because it takes
up a lot of my head space, like all the negativity.
And I understand when people get upset at like something
I do or something they disagree with. There is so
(43:13):
much in this world to be upset about. People don't
even know what to be mad about. First, and online
they have the same amount of power to comment as
I do. To comment. Everyone is like, all of a sudden,
on the same playing field a level. And because everyone
(43:38):
is so fucking oppressed that when they write something hateful
and it gets a lot of use, a lot of attention,
for once their voice matters. Yeah, finally something they said
is being recognized. Finally they can feel like they were right,
(44:01):
even if it's negative, even if it's a lie. And
so it's like these people who are so fucking mean
in the comments, like the only validation sometimes they have
is for a day on Twitter, they were they're something
they said was the most important thing.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, and it trended, and it trended, And that is
so addictive, even if it's hateful, and it's like Jesus Christ,
I of course they're going to do that.
Speaker 4 (44:32):
I remember I had like a fan who was always
right like nice things, and I wouldn't really like respond
and then decided to like switch it up and like
start saying mean stuff to like get a like get
a rise out of me. And I was I did
you guys, And I felt for it, you know, I
was like, wow, it does work. And that's what some
people are like motivated on like this negative impact, like
(44:53):
let me just I can bully you to get a
rise out of you, because really, like how you were saying, oh,
you know famous, you know she, you should just be
happy to do whatever you get. And well, it's that
mentality of like scarcity that is in all of us
that makes us feel like, oh this one just got something.
Let me go after let me just tear this person
(45:15):
apart because we're all like actually struggling. Everyone else is
like dying, so of course, just put it against this person.
And I think that's like that crowd like riot mentality,
like it just gets gets more and more. But then
after like the dust settles, then there's a boundary that
was set and all of a sudden they respect it.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah, because listen, they're not up under my comments doing
that as much as they were last week, right because
they were scared that they gonna they I was gonna
put their tour pass body up there and let them
see the honey girl, you were a baked potato. I
might be up, I might be a little sput but.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
You are baked potato girl, fully loaded.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Now, before I move to the next thing, I want
to stay here for just a second because I want
to I want to say now that both of you
are stars from Home to piggyback off of that same
villain era question, how do you have you received it
from your own people like like like, okay, let me
(46:19):
give you an example. So you know I'm on cozy
with Beyonce, right, I get some of the other trans
girls be like, oh honey, it wasn't like that she
was in the studio with Beyonce and this is a
girl or the like they try to minimalize like your
success or minimalize oh girl, be humble or or or
(46:40):
I've seen them try to petition because I've cussed the
bitch out. I've seen them try to petition to get
me removed from the song. Like these are people that
are from my own community and like stuff like this,
like you want to be able to say all this
type of trash to me, but and then and then
(47:01):
minimum minimize you know, my accolade. And then when I
cut your ass out, now you want to get me removed.
So what is it have you guys experienced that? Like
from like my own community, Like after you wont drag race,
like you your your your Roupau's drag race, You've won
(47:22):
two hundred thousand dollars. How many of the girls that
have been like, oh, child went on to my face?
But I'm sure it's like yeah, some.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
Like you know, like some like sisters or like the
girls you know, it's like very like, well, where's mine?
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Really? Is that what that is? You know? So it's like, oh,
how come her her?
Speaker 3 (47:44):
You know?
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Oh, so you have experienced it to one hundred knees.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
I find the most. I'm very confused when the queer
community ghost like just trash us on other members of
the I'm just confused. I'm always I'm just like, look,
being mad is so important. Like if you are mad,
(48:14):
that is fucking real, and you can do something with that,
like get mad enough to like make change, make change,
do something with that anger. How much hatred you have
for me, Go to your lawmakers, like, go vote, go volunteer,
like fine, but like it hurts me when queer people
(48:40):
tear me down. A lot of the queer community is
not going to agree with me, and and that hurts.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
You know, I understand exactly what both of you ladies mean,
because there's times that I give the opportunity to have
positions of a talk show, positions of a podcast, positions
of being on Beyonce, or positions like getting those positions,
and then it becomes well, why didn't you, Why didn't you,
Why didn't you say this? Why didn't you say? It's like, sweetie,
(49:10):
my presence is my activism my uh then why are
you Yeah, like, why are you saying this? Don't be
talking about all of us? Yeah, And so it's like, well, like,
well you shouldn't say that. Well what about the you know,
because I've gotten into a lot of hot water for saying, Okay,
as a you and I are in the same age
(49:33):
bracket and stuff like that. So when we were growing up,
when we're about to shake the table, so get ready,
because we want you to understand as a as a
queer woman, that we see this that we we go
through this stuff as a trans woman. When we were
(49:56):
growing up what they call us training trainees, she mails.
You know, but when we were growing up, you looked
at Cephila Wrenn. You looked at what I used to
look at. I mean, God, shiit, what's Cleopatra? She played
(50:18):
Cleopatrick Taylor, Lizabeth Taylor. You know, I looked at little
cam marya je. I'm looking at all of these women
who I wanted to transition to kind of emulate or
to look like. And now we're living in a time
and I'm not invalidating anybody's identities. I must say that.
Let me look at the camera. I'm not invalidating anyone's
(50:42):
identity as a trans person. But if you're in the
bathroom with a beard and you're shaving over the sink,
and this becomes a political piece that these people out
here campaigning against trans people and saying that, oh, well,
(51:04):
they're in the bathroom and there there are men in
the bathroom. You know, we're always going to be correlated
with men because we were born male, but we're not men.
And you're in here and you're adding to the stigma,
are shaving in the public bathroom girl. I don't know,
but they use a lot of that stuff as a
political No trans woman is walking out trying to be
(51:27):
unclockable and then pulling out, use that as a lot
of political plot. But then there are a lot of
But then when when you and I might speak out
about like girl, no, we will say something to the
to the effect of, and this we're conversating here, I
got to make sure that you're watching another having a conversation.
We would say something to the fact of, well no,
(51:48):
just like you said, yeah, well no, real passable trans
woman is in the in the bathroom shaving. Then you
get other ones, Well what about the ones that came
Then then we become the enemy, and it's like, no,
we're from different times and from the time I was
not trying to speak for everyone. Yeah, every transperson, but
our experience. But when every trans person's life is on
(52:11):
the line, Yeah, we'd like to make it a little
We'd like for you to understand that ninety nine point
nine percent of us we're trying to pass just get by.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
I just don't want to get spooked or clocked, you know,
I just want to get like I do not need
somebody pointing it out, and that's what every trans person
just wants to be. It's okay, let me talk about
the world clocking when they clock us down, because when
you look at us from the outer you see you
feel this god iss energy you see then make somebody
want to look and then they see it and then
(52:45):
they have to be like, Okay, how am I going
to objectify you as a woman? And then once they
find out they can't because you weren't born a woman,
then that's a problem. But first they're going to see
how can I objectify you the amount of times in
order for me to like go through the airport and
just not get misgendered the sweatshirt, I have to like
sexualize myself. I've have my tits out and like during
TSA and then they'll call me a woman. Then I'm
cool because you want to objectify me. But I have
(53:08):
to go through all that. So I'm then not going
to go and shave my beard in the sink at gates. SA, No,
it's not happening.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yeah. Yeah, So we feel you. I feelt everything that
you said because it becomes like when you when you
when you're a public figure and you've received all the
accolades that you've received and the public is receiving you.
Now the responsibility is I have to drag my commune,
every every sort of role model.
Speaker 4 (53:36):
It's like I didn't ask for that. I want a
competition about doing dragging me and Shady. There was nothing
about waiting, no Nobel prest prize. I do not know
all the answers. And that's what they had like when
I was when I was doing like my reigning tour,
a lot of questions, a lot of like interviews of like,
you know, really like strong political things, and I'm like,
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
I'm not the answer to that, Like that's not what
I'm here for. I don't know how to answer that question.
Can't be the one to answer that because it's we
two loaded. Every time TMZ runs into me, they want
to ask me something about like trans stuff, and I'm like, okay, great,
I'm trans. But like they asked me about trans in sports.
My answer is, there are five hundred thousand athletes that
(54:21):
are in sports. Ten of them are trans. I'm not
in sports. Ten of them are trans. The government is
focusing on the wrong thing. That's my answer. Don't ask
me if I want to play basketball. If I want
a volleyball, don't ask me if I want to. If
I want to be on the swim, I don't want it.
I'm not listen. I fail pe, Bitch, I'm back, I
(54:44):
fail Pe. I don't know how to answer that. So, ladies,
we've gotten to this point of our show, and it's
called ban it Bitch. Okay, now, this is one of
(55:05):
my favorite segments, Ban it Bitch. Now. Some people out
here are banning drag shows, LBGTQ, plus books and even
our very existence. But we're flipping the script. What's something
you would ban if you ran the world? Now, here's
how this works. We each get one minute to make
(55:29):
our case for what needs to go. Producers will keep
track of time and call out when there's thirty seconds
and ten seconds left. Let me kick it off to
show you how it's done. And this is how we're
gonna do it. So now while I'm doing it, both
of you ladies can think about something. So it's just
gonna be a minute, So you think about something that
(55:50):
you want to ban. Already, I already know what I'm
getting ready up so you can watch me. Hey, y'all,
my neighbor is here's the Madison, honey, and it's time
for ban it, bitch. All right, you ready, you ready
count me down? Let's go. My neighbor is tiens Mass
and if I ran the world, I would ban the
policing on responding to a negative person. Let me tell
you something, Every single time that a negative bitch gets
(56:12):
down in my comment section, I'm gonna respond back to
they fucking ass, especially if I'm sitting in first class, honey,
or or or I'm being catered to, honey, and I
don't have anything else to do but look down there
and see that negative shit that you say, and I
cuss your motherfucking ass out. I'm tired of y'all being
able to say whatever the fuck you want to say,
and because I'm a star, I can't say anything back. Bitch,
(56:33):
you gonna get this work. If you tap on my door,
I'm gonna work your ass out, honey, like a trainer
in a gym. Bitch, I'm gonna work you out, especially
if you girls are built up like slurpies and telling
me that my body is bad. Bitch, I want to
ban you from being in my comment section. I want
to ban an ugly bitch for calling me ugly bitch.
(56:53):
You look like Miguilla Gorilla. I want to ban a
fat bitch from calling me fat bitch. You are big
ass the goddamn state of Idaho.
Speaker 3 (57:01):
Girl.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
There is no way that you're going to have the
ability to lay me out anymore without me responding. I
ban it, bitch.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
That good?
Speaker 4 (57:12):
Who I felt that good? I get it to Capitol Hill. Okay, yes, ladies,
that that's what you have to figure out.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
What's ban on that? I'm that passionate about it for.
Speaker 5 (57:25):
A whole.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Yeah, do you have your I.
Speaker 3 (57:32):
Can I do multiple things?
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Baby?
Speaker 3 (57:34):
Okay? Hi, I'm Chapel Roone, and these are things that
I think should be banned. Band it Okay, I ban
hot takes. I don't want to see your hot take.
I don't care. I just want to see fun things online.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I don't care.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
If you are HI publicist here.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
I don't believe you.
Speaker 3 (57:56):
First of all. Also, if you're a publicist, get the
fuck out of the comments to do your job. An
of all, I don't think you actually know anything about
me at all. Second of all pop crave ban it,
third of all cork shoes ban it.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
Ugly period. I felt like the weight off of your shoulders.
She said, I'm gonna live. I'm gonna do a few too.
Speaker 4 (58:29):
Then let me just take it out, okay.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
All right, then go on a tangent.
Speaker 4 (58:35):
This.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
My name is Sasha Koby.
Speaker 4 (58:37):
All right, ready, my name is Sasha Kobe. And if
I ruled the world, I would ban Let me see,
where would I ban? I would ban like any dating
apps that UH approve these men holding fishes as their
(58:57):
profile pick.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
I don't want to see your fish. I don't want
to know your boat because it just looks like you're
about to remove that fish as a body and I'm
not about it. What else would I ban? I would ban.
Speaker 4 (59:08):
Hmmm, oh gosh, what else would I ban?
Speaker 1 (59:16):
I mean hateful people, awful comments. I would ban bad drag.
I would ban not wash well. I would ban anybody
who is not washing their pads from my space.
Speaker 4 (59:27):
Go wash your stuff. I would ban the current government
right now, I've banned that. And I would ban me
from the women's bathroom because I would love to go
in the bathroom with your husbands.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
And then we go, honey, this has been banned. Bitch. Wait,
you're gonna be in the bathroom. I mean if I
get to go into that, if I had to go
into these bathrooms, I want to be able to go
into the like the bathhouses too once. I think, never
let us the trains girls. They never let the transend
in the bath house. See how you go. Only the
(01:00:07):
gay men have been allowed to go in the in
the in the bath houses. And they've also been only
allowed to go to the sex parties like they would
like if you were trains, you couldn't go there. Like
why the mass is really pick or choose, it's really
hind picked. It's like why because like you, I can't
(01:00:27):
help that we're in between ladies. I would like to
tell you I've had the most wonderful time interviewing you both.
You have been wonderful guests. Chapel, I didn't get to
tell you my kink is karma. There's a line in
your song run It, Trent, tell me the line. People say,
(01:00:53):
I'm jealous, but my kink is watching you ruin your life. Yeah,
every time I have an X, he gets this, May
you never sleep, may you never slumber, May you reach
and never grasp. And I get a kink out of
(01:01:15):
watching their lives fall completely apart.
Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
It feels good.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
It feels good. It feels good to know that all
of those people that threw you away, that all of
those people that counted you out, that those people that
walked out of your life, that those people that wished
ill for you, that all they got to do is
wait for karma. And it's definitely gonna come around. And
(01:01:39):
my kinky ass is going to be right there in
a pair of boots watching it. Fuck you down? Did
y'all have a good time? All ladies? Thank you, Thank
you so much for taking the time out of y'all
busy schedule. Honey, I love you very much, and y'all
are always welcome on the Outlaws podcast with Ts Mass
(01:02:03):
Can We Do It? Outlaws is a production of the
Outspoken Network from iHeart Podcasts and Turtle Run Entertainment, co
created by Tyler Rabinowitz and Olivia Piece. I'm your host
Tias Madison. We are executive produced by Tyler Rabinowitz, Maya Howard,
and Tis Madison. Our supervising producer is Jessica Krinchich, and
(01:02:24):
our producers are Joey pat and Common Bra. Our video
editor is Tyler Rabinowitz and our sound editor is Jes Crinchic.
Our associate producer is Trent high Tower Special thanks to
our producer's assistant Daniel Rabinowitz. Our theme song is composed
by Wazi Merritt. Our show art is by Pablo Martina.
(01:02:45):
Cat You Next Week, Honey,
Every time I open up my mouth up and goes
out no wait, no wind wodd yourself, get a job,
ricking honey, Rick.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Chase.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm black like that about living gets color easy. This
is Outlaws with Tears Medicine. Hey y'all, Hey, thank you,
ladies both for being here on the Outlaws Podcast with
ts massive. Ladies and gentlemen, listen, I am so excited
(00:52):
to be sitting here today with royalty on both sides.
We have a young princess and a demure queen, and
I am really so excited to be here doing this
because I ran into one of the royal ladies at
(01:13):
the VMA's and I also have been watching one of
the Royal ladies since I was a kid. Yes, I
have been a kid before. Yes, don't let don't let
this youthfulness fool you. I was younger than this at
one time. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like for you right
now to put your hands together for Sasha Colby and
(01:34):
Chappell Roan. Nobody ain't clapping the ladies. I am honored
to have you both on this podcast because this has
been a work in progress that we've been working on
for a very very very long time, and as funny
as it may sound, we've got a lot of nose.
(01:58):
We have a lot of nose. And I said, yes,
and I want you to know how important it is.
I just want to start from the gate with this chapel,
how important it is for you to be sitting here
and for you to be a champion for lbgt Q
i A and specifically for transgender women's rights, for transgender
(02:23):
women's existence, for championing we transgender people as human beings.
And I don't think that people really understand the magnitude
because your star just came in and then just took
over over the skies. For someone to have presence and
(02:46):
use their presence to speak for the voiceless, we thank you,
we salute you, we support you, we love you for that,
because there are a lot of people in this world
who say, oh, I love the girls. This is Bu'll
(03:07):
get somewhere and be like, thank you, the recording Academy,
good night. No, when you walk into a space, you've
let it be known I'm here because others were there,
and this particular group of people are the reason why
there's gas to fuel my star. And I just wanted
(03:30):
to look directly at you and tell you thank you
for that. Thank you so much. You don't understand how
your presence is so important and that we people need
to take a note from your pad and know that
you are supposed to do this. This is what you're
(03:52):
supposed to do when you get into big spaces. Thank you,
Thank you, niece.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Thank you, thank you. Oh my god, thank you for
saying that.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, it's important that you know this. Now, my sister
over here. I was so elated to see you walk
out on that stage at RuPaul's Drag Race. What season
was it, y'all? Fifteen eighteen? Yes, because you mean so
(04:24):
RuPaul's Drag Race fifteen. And I watched you walk out
on that stage, and I said, right then and there, honey,
y'all might as well give her to two hundred thousand dollars.
She's already won. I have been watching you since I
was a young girl. I've watched you entertain I've watched
(04:46):
you listen when you came through and you gave us
all the sickeningness that you are on those pageant tapes,
and you made Jim Flint give you that crown. Every
young girl who's been a trans woman has always wanted
to vie for the title of Miss Continental, and you know,
(05:10):
we watched, we've watched all the girls come through battle
and compete, and you came and shook it up. But
I've been I have been watching you before, like because
you've you've you've you've read for other titles, and you know,
you've always been this petite girl. Honey, Hawaii, Hawaii, Hawaii.
You've been always Hawaii, you know. And I'm doing all
(05:33):
this movement and stuff like this. But when you're when
you're from I'm from Miami, and so when you're at Florida, girl,
they always tell you, oh girl, those girls from Honolulu, Hawaii, Thailand,
Oh girl, honey, those girls, those other girls, you know.
And so when you won, and I just knew when
you came out on Drag Race, I was like, oh girl,
(05:54):
she's gonna eat this. The rest of these girls in
the back bed all be ready, but I will tell
you this, you may those girls step they put the up.
You made those girls compete on your season. You made
them compete because they knew they were in the presence
of royalty. And they also knew that they were in
the presence of a fierce competitor. I thank you for
(06:19):
existing and for not only taking your your crown from
Continental and not letting it stop there, and to get
on the largest stage in the world and say this
is mine. Thanks and thank you, yes, honestly, thank you. Ladies.
You are on the podcast of the Outlaws podcast with
(06:43):
TS Madison. So I'm going to start with you, Chapel.
There's a segment we call it's called talk your Shit,
and it's time for you to talk your shit in
this episode or excuse me, this segment we ask who
you are, what you do, what are you proud of?
(07:06):
And in this moment, these are your times to shine. So,
chap I'm gonna start with you. Who are you and
what do you do? As if you just didn't.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
I'm a singer and I write songs, but I'm also
a drag queen.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Why and.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I would say I'm fierce. I might say I'm fierce,
and I would also say I've broken mini records, I've
broken MANI records with the girls. And I feel an
imposter syndrome sometimes, like just say saying this. I know
(07:48):
that when I read like the podcasts like okay, this
is what to expect like this is where you talk
your shit. I was like, I've never done that before,
so yeah, I'm a virgin, so this is crazy for
me to actually say, but I just want to grammy.
I just won two Brits. I just I've won the
(08:10):
Billboard Artists of the Year, i won BBC ones Artists
Best Artists. Like, We've done a lot this year and
broke lolla pluzas, like the biggest crowd of all time,
broke some records at goftball just like sold out a
massive tour.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Like that.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
It's like we are doing good considering I was literally
I was dropped in twenty twenty working the drive through
and was about to give up on everything, and pulled
(08:50):
myself together and here we are now. So I'm a
singer all together, but also a girlie who is very
like against the machine, and I love the industry and
of like very against what the pop girls are supposed
to be doing. I would say, what like aligned with
(09:11):
Sinead O'Connor.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So basically what my niece just said, you can fuck
with me. I'm new and I came in and broke records.
I'm that girl with all the accolades, with all the accolades,
all the accolades. Yeah, you so to get.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
It and to be like actually being able to say
it in a space where you can feel safe to
say that is like it's.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Hard to It's like actually like hard for me to
say that.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Why why why do you think it's hard for you
to say it?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Well, because I grew up like midwestern girly and like
always modesty is hottest, and like modesty also meaning like
your pride is very humble, you know, which it is
absolutely important, and like I have a hard time like
when is it too much? When is it prideful? When
(10:07):
is it too humble? When is it not giving yourself
enough credit?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
But it's hard for me to.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Just like to feel like I'm not boasting about myself, but.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
It is awesome. What can I ask you? What's your sign?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Pisces? But I'm on the Cusps. I'm the nineteenth February nineteen,
so you're almost in Aries almost Aquarius.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Oh so you're so you're because I'm a Libra scorpio.
Oh yeah, and I have a Piscey's moon.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Oh I have a Libra moon or maybe not, maybe
it's a labor right, Like I don't know actually the
girls now.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So you do? So do you throw thought over your
shoulder sometimes?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
So I'm not I'm not a I'm not a Oh.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
You're not a bru ha? Well you are magic. I'd
like for you to know that you have the right
to talk your ship because this is These are things
that people have said that you couldn't do. It's true,
and so there's always a time to talk your ship,
especially when you know your capabilities and what you have done.
(11:24):
And then you have people like me that's gonna come
back here and be like, yes, eat them up, fuck
them holes up. Don't you put a rubber on now, niece,
this is the time for you to talk your ship.
Who am I? My name is Sasha Kobe.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
I'm a let's see, actress, performer, musician, activist, mother, goddess,
all of it for miscontinental winner of Drag Race Season fifteen. Yeah,
just kind of enjoying life and uh, reaping the rewards
(12:04):
and the you know, like from your twenties to forties,
it's like you plant your seeds to make all the
things that you can reap. And I'm just turned forty
and I'm about to reap.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Oh yes, well, I'm forty, said, I'll be forty eight
this year. Yes, and I think that this is the
time that you really, you know, get into the reaping
of things. But here's the thing. Don't ever put don't
ever let age. And this is for you two niece,
don't ever let age like like, oh, if I'm not
(12:35):
if I'm not thirty, I can't do this. If I'm forty,
I can't. It comes when it's supposed to, just like
your star came exactly when it was supposed to. I'd
like to back up just a tiny bit. And so
(12:58):
you used to work in a drive through, you said,
I worked.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
At Scooter's Coffee drive through Kiosk.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And you are from the Midwest, and in the Midwest
they told you would just be humble, like you've heard
this countless time, you too, right.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Oh yeah, it's very like big in Hawaii, like don't
be grand, don't act out of pocket, like yeah, yeah, mist.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Wrapped yourself down and like mine was I think wrapped
up in like guilt of like Christian Christian.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Oh yeah, we definitely had like Jehovah's witness gilt.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
There were Jehovah.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, so you were Jehovah's Witness grew up that, Yeah,
my family still is or no.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
And what was your religious I was like Christian, non
denominational kind of, but it was. It's murky, it's murky
what denomination it actually was.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
But what have you found in your beliefs on both less?
Because listen, I'm from the South, Yeah, so that means
I was Baptist immediately. Yeah. And christ and Christianity and
all of that stuff has been like this thing that
has governed us all and I think that I think
that religion has been the biggest detriment to human beings
(14:19):
and being I'm black. I always say to us for
as black as a black person, I feel like there's
been the biggest detriment to the Black community religion, not relationship.
Because I do believe that both of you ladies have
some belief system and what you believe in that makes
that you draw your power from. But you're just not
(14:39):
governed by religion or the religious aspects of everything. And
so when you were saying you feel guilty or you
felt guilty about being a when do I turn on
my story sea and like it's like, hey, I have
to be humb like let me be humble. That's something
(15:03):
that they will embed in you as do you identify
as queer, that is something that they embed in you
as a person that's queer to walk behind yeah, or
to dumb down, dumbed down self monitor. Yeah. That was
a lot like the shame.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Like families, My family's love came with was always attached
to shame, and there was always that level of like
I love you, but not don't want to be seen
with you in public, or I love you, but can
you go outside the brothers and sisters are coming, like
go hide somewhere.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
It's it was always this.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Level of they want to treat me like a human,
but they're nervous that they can't. Like it's also absolute
when you come with man made religion. You know, I'm
a spiritual person. I believe in this spirituality and like
a connection with something. But to say that organized religion
isn't just another way to oppress POCS, queer people, well,
(16:00):
it's to control.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I do believe that it was all put together to control,
because if we're both speaking from a place of a
loving God, God hasn't told any of these people that
are doing whatever they're doing right now especially in this
regime that we're under right now. God hasn't told any
of those people to do any of the things that
they're doing, because if you look at you and you
(16:23):
and me, we're human beings. We are humans that all
of us in this room deserve the right to live.
We deserve the right to eat, we deserve the right
to love. We deserve those rights. And so this regime
that we're under right now is trying to strip us
all from those rights. And that is why back to you,
(16:43):
my niece, your voice is important because you can walk
in a room and you are They can see you
as a beautiful white woman who can sing, who has privilege.
For you to take that and take moments of that
(17:05):
and understand those moments that you have and say, hey,
all of you that are watching me right now, queer rules, bitch.
You know, we don't have enough of that. We don't
have enough of those people. We have so many people
talking about Holly love us, I love you, I love you,
love you. But then when it comes down to it,
you go in the voters in the booth and you
(17:27):
vote for something that's a financially beneficial for you instead
of from a human aspect of it. So I take
it that you're not Jehovah's witness anymore.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
No, no, I stop. Actually, when I was like fourteen,
i'd gotten into there was just like a ways gossip
in the church, you know, like people who are just
the whole thing with like Jehovah's Witness. Which is hilarious
is they market is as a place where you want
to spend eternity with these people. I don't even want
to spend like two hours on a Sunday with you.
(18:02):
I was an eternity with you like that is insane.
So I just kind of saw pass it and I
told my parents, I really don't like the hypocrisy that
me being queer or me being outwardly like feminine at
fourteen is a bigger sin than the guy who's like
having me being outwardly queer or like outwardly feminine at
fourteen was a bigger sin than that guy who's going to.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Have who got his you can be I'd like for
you to be as vulgar. Listen, listen, my nieces. I
need for y'all to be as vulgar as you like
here because this is where you can express you know.
I'm not one of those places where where they come in.
I need you to monitor no cuss, fuss express. You
know how you was tearing it on on the carpet,
(18:53):
tearing reporter up. All of that type of stuff drew
me into you like now I like a person and
that will wear you out and we're like, hey, I
know you remember that time when I was over and
I was like, yes, eat them up. Here's where you
can do all of that stuff. You know, because I
do that, you know, I'll tell the Bisi to eat
(19:14):
glass in our heart, eat a glass, dick, I take it.
I go to the video. Yes, so let's talk about
origin story here in this part of the podcast. I
want either or both of you to tell me a
turning point, an experience, or a source of inspiration or
(19:34):
a Eureka moment that shape your paths today. Origin story
that made me like this monster. Yes, I think hmmm.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
One of like the first origin stories was me at
like seventeen. I was like, so I graduated at eighteen
and like literally nineteen tips like immediately like started to
the sex work and did all the things I had
to do in order to get this to look the
way I wanted to and I was very impatient, stubborn
gal so she uh yeah, she was seventeen. I was
(20:15):
like still like closeted, like like not really sure if
I could be gay or not. And my best friends
like took me to my first drag show and I
stuck into an eighteen overclub and I sat right down
in the middle.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
And it was in Hawaii.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
It's a place called Venus, and it was like the
the legend queen there. It was her fortieth so she
had like the best of the best Taiko her name's Iko, Yeah, Okay,
she actually owns a Miss Universal show queen in Hawaii.
But it was her fortieth and she had the best
of the best performing for her show. And that's where
(20:50):
I saw like the best trans drag, the best like
boy drag, the best like what of what Hawaii had
to offer, And a lot of it was really did
around Miss Continental because Continental actually and the Baton where
Jim Flint made Continental, of the first cast of people
were actually from Hawaii. They were part of the Glades
(21:11):
in the nineteen sixties and seventies, Wow, and he brought
them to Chicago. So there's a connection between the pageant
world and like Continental and Hawaii that we hold like
really close.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So I got to.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
See like Yoshiko Shiro, I got to see these amazing
Continental performers, drag performers, trans women. I saw kind of
Jacobs for the first time, Dina Jacobs, Like it was
incredible and that was like sign me up, Like.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I was so yoshik O Shiro she won on.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Yes, she was the beautiful, the little Asian, Yes, the
beautiful She Crown Candice who's from Maui.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So it's like Hawaii gro Crown Hawaii girl. Wow. Yeah,
so you kind of lack have an so you are
a part of the origin story of Continental. It's kind
of yeah, when I go home to Hawaii, I'll go
and we have like a puttina, which is a party,
and the elder femmes, elder Hawaiians all of them will
come out and like we'll have a big barbecue at
(22:07):
the beach and I get to see like these legends
that I used to watch or like Google no, like
ask Jeeves because it was that it was like the
beginning of like Netscape.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
But I would like try to look up drag Queen
and you know, Mimi Marks to come up where maya
Douglas and we would look at all these amazing trans women.
They were all trans women that were doing drag. You know, wow,
like chili pepper, chili peppery.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Oh my god, listen, I'm sitting here getting so excited
because I've watched these Take niece, I want you to
have I want you to have your I really want
you to have your mom take you in there and
just when you're not busy because you're ruling the world,
I really want you to have your mom sit down
and just like put on the big screen and just
(22:51):
put in a VH get an old VHS M see
you young r with that over there, and just like
get all the pageant taps so that you can be like,
oh gosh, that's what I had, like in nights, like
my drag mom did to me, like had a bucket
of like from nineteen eighty four, yeah, four, And I
(23:13):
just watched Did you ever compete in MBU?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
No?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
They wanted me to, but I never did. I really wish.
I only did Continental.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Actually, yeah, I did Continental four times before I won,
so I did some prelims, but I used to judge
after I won.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
I judged missus k U s a few times. Have
you So you never done EO, No, I never did.
I always wanted to, but I'm like, once I got
con then I was like, so you left Continental right
because I'm going to I'm going to the.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I found that little like shoot where you could just
like go down, I just take a little shortcut.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Wow, now chapel top. I'd like to know what's what's
the origins or what got you to be to the
place that you are now, Like what created this monster?
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Gay clubs? Go go dancers specifically, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
So as a Christian woman, you left out of the
church and went straight to the gay clubs, Yes, and
watched all the go go dancers.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I was in shock and like I was in awe,
and it was just like how do I how do
I be them? Just watching go go dancers? And I
always wanted to feel sexy in that way because I
felt so shameful about being sexy. There was like this
(24:45):
weird thing in my head that I thought the more
modest you were, like the better woman you were, or
like the more kind of subdued, the more.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
You will be respected.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
And I just realized like everything that was I was
taught that was like really disrespected, like sex work, gay people, drag, queens,
blue eyeshadow, like it could be down to the long nails, like.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It's wait a minute, you know what I mean? Wait,
I need you to break down the blue eyes shadow
for me.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
It's like stigmatized.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
It's like, well, one like.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Love seventeen magazine, but like when I would read so
much seventeen magazine and never you know, when I was
a teenager, was like no, if you have blue eyes,
no blue eyes shadow. And like also blue eyes shadow
was just like so wrapped up in drag within sex work,
within performance, Like so I didn't ever do anything.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So can I tell you a secret? Yeah, ready for
a secret? You know where the blue eyes shadow being
tied into six work from. No, have you ever seen
the movie Deep Throat? I've heard, but never actually watched it. Okay,
when they brought movies to cinema back in the seventies,
(26:14):
majority of the women that were a part of the
Deep Throat movie they had blue eyeshaw. And you didn't
make me realize this until I started to this conversation
right here watching Deep Throat. Oh my god, what was
her name? Somebody helped me. Somebody other helped me, was
it They used to have blue eyeshadow on all the
(26:42):
beautiful girls, Like if the girls were beautiful like that,
the lashes would be long and the eyeshadow would be
like a deep blue. It was Linda Lovelace. Listen, listen,
you listen your back into some stuff like you know
about how listen. Sex has been so demonized when this
(27:04):
is it's how we all got here. We've explored our
best songs that we've written or heard from some sexual experience.
I love the guy, I hate him now it's because
he fucked you good both times. The was good on
each of the times. You loved it for it, and
(27:25):
now you hate him because he gave it to you.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Then we have a lot of sex workers and prostitution whatever.
Like blue eyes shadow. I love a deep and tomorrow
I'm gonna have a very deep royal blue eyeshadow, No wonder,
royal blue is my favorite color. But that is so
crazy that you say that you were demonized for blue eyeshadow.
(27:50):
You really were. You were really religiously whooped. Yeah I
was too, but I said no more of that shit.
God knew when I came to this word that I
was going to suck dick. He knew it. He knew it. Man,
he's watched me do it and still has given me
(28:11):
life and breath every day. Won't he do it? I
want to know when did you know that you had
a gift of song that you can sing?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
When I was thirteen and I auditioned for like the
Christmas talent show in my middle school, what did you sing?
The Christmas song? Like chestnuts roasting on an open fire? Song?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Can I get a little bit right now? It's a
little bit?
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Let me beat you. What's key chess?
Speaker 5 (28:42):
Not roasting on an open fire? Mm hmm, jack frost
snipping at your nose?
Speaker 1 (28:52):
You tie? Keep going because I want to join it. Okay,
I want to I want.
Speaker 5 (28:56):
To join Okay, join you tie Carols VG song by
why Far.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Everybody you know.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
Turkey and some missletoe op do make this bibit right
right right?
Speaker 1 (29:26):
And you knew then that you could sing? So what
did your parents know that you could sing? That day?
That day?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
That day?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
And did they say slow down, grubby humble?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
No, They're like, you're going to America's Got Talent because
everyone in the Midwest does you either go to American
Idol or America's got talent if you can sing. I
still get asked that. I still get asked that. Some
someone will say, like, you go on American Idol? When
are you going to go?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
It's like you're not passing American Idol? Do you not?
Did you not? Just hear me say, honey, I won this,
I won that. I sold out to a girl. Honey,
are you crazy? And I don't wear blue eyeshadows. I'd
like to get to this part of our show. It's
called the villain era. Oh, I want to start with
(30:16):
you because I've watched you. I've watched you and I've
been over there, like, cut them, girl, I've been listen,
I've been watching you. I want to pass you my
razor blade. Every time you every time you turn your
beautiful gown around and you see it and you catch
somebody out there that you want to tear up, I'll
be like, girl here needs sing on my razor blade.
Cut them. So now the villain era is you know,
(30:37):
every outlaw gets labeled a villain at some point, often
when you're just trying to live your truth and do
your best. Now, your villain era could be a time
where you stop people pleasing a time you stood up
for yourself or maybe made a mistake, maybe you did
something that sparked some controversy, or maybe the world just
(30:58):
simply wasn't read for you. Now, ladies, I'd like to
know what was your villain era and what did you
learn from it.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
I feel like I already said some of my villain era.
I felt like my villain era was when I was
Britney spears.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Give me more.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Well, I thought it was because when I was queer
as like an adolescent, and I was a villainized in
religion or in my home and not feeling safe there.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
But if I have a few more villain errors, let
me think of something.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Do you ever were you ever made to feel like
a villain on drag Race or not because of drag
Race or like the internet villain for anything?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
You know, that is something that I am coming uh
to grips with. Yeah, I was gonna say, like right now,
it's a very misunderstood villain era. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I mean for a lot of trans people for like
that definitely, definitely. I feel like, you know, there's a
lot of.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
A lot of uh eyes just on you, you know,
when we're just trying to like be and make our
art and create, and if we're not doing what you
know half of these viewers or these people on social
media are saying, then you know we're not doing it
right or we're being told.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I really like try so hard to just like.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Sit on my hands when I'm like looking at these
comments and stuff and I'm like, just don't.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Even so I'm trying not to because you know how
I get down. I know, I do the thing where
I write it all out and then I'll screenshot it
and I'll send it to my friends and then I'm like,
oh no, because I don't know. But I just feel like.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
I don't want to give anybody AMMO. But that's just
like so much fear based, like especially just feeling like
uncomfortable to speak your your mind or your cheap at
all right now, but especially being on a show that
for me, it was a competition show. It was a
show that I got to showcase all that I love
with this social part of it that really will make you,
(32:59):
you know, have friction with your castmates or or have
friction with yourself too, and that comes off on the
television show. And then it's kind of based on what
other people receive you as and it and oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
But I'm yes, I do believe in the edits.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
But I I never said anything you could edit bad,
So I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, you can't.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
You can't.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
If you don't blame it on the edit. You gotta
blame it on the on what you say.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Yeah, yeah, if there's something to edit, then they'll they'll
definitely grab to it, especially if you have nothing else
to offer, right a girl, Because I've judged.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Chapel my villain era. I mean I think that I've
had like three in the past nine months, probably just
because I was a new girl in the pop game,
where I was like, I don't give a fuck what
you say to these girls who have been doing since
they were ten, and told that like this is okay,
(34:03):
that how they how you're treated like I'm I was.
I did not get like famous until I was like
twenty six, so I like had a lot of time
to realize like, oh, this is what it's like to
be an adult and how to be like respected in
(34:24):
a job like I got treated. I've been treated better
at like my donut shop job than I have on
a fucking carpet like and in the fucking I mean
people in the news treat me worse than like how
customers did. It's crazy. And so I think when I
started to say, don't talk to me like that, I'm
(34:47):
not going to show up for blah blah blah blah,
like I don't want to. That doesn't mean that I'm
a villain or ungrateful for what I have. It's like,
why is this customary? Like this is it's so it's
so I know I always say abusive, but like when
(35:10):
I was walking on the carpet for the first time
and people just yelling your name, your name, your name,
just screaming it at you, I'm like, what if I
like had so much trauma from a parent or like
a caregiver screaming my name at me constantly, constantly, constantly,
and then you're supposed to like you walk on a
(35:30):
carpet and that's exactly what's happening, and it's so scary
because you haven't been yelled at in a long time
and your body just you you have to ignore all
all fight or flight and just look hot. Like So
that is one like the carpet situation when I was
like fuck you, like fuck you, like you can't talk
(35:51):
to me like that. An immediate villain, because there's not
many girls who are new in the game that can
do that and get away with it. Like, I thought
it was really interesting reading something about how there's so
(36:14):
much like love for like in an apologies for people
like Brittany, or for people like Paris and Lindsay Lohan
who had such an people were so evil to them,
and how like as a community we need to apologize
to Brittany. I'm like absolutely, but like also that behavior
(36:41):
is still being You're still doing it, and it's just like,
do you want me to just get to the point
where I become agoraphobic or so stressed out or so
anxious to perform or whatever that I don't like you
want me to get to that point, because if I
don't say anything, I will if I do not stand
(37:03):
up for myself, I will quit because I cannot bear this,
Like I cannot bear people touching me who do I
don't know. I cannot bear people following me and like
it's really scary, or I cannot bear people saying I'm
something I'm not. That's what's really hard online. People just
(37:29):
assume you're the villain. I can't do this if I'm
not trying to like protect who I am. Otherwise I
will be either quit or don't or just like so
severely depressed. I have to go back to the hospital.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Libes. Yeah, So would you say that you're fighting back
for Britney, for Lindsey, for all the girls who had
to just stand back and just like take it, Like,
would you say you're you're You're like nah, fuck that,
(38:10):
I'm changing the way. I'm changing this direction now.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
I think for like all the girls with you right now,
right like all the like Sabrina Carpenters and all the
girls that like, yeah, are trying to you know, may
be successful and be artists, Like you're.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Not just saying that you can't do that to me.
You can't do that to any of that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
And also like Brittany was saying this, the things I
was saying, that's like the saddest part is like the
girls have been saying like fuck you get on my
face and no one has listened. And like, because they
have laid the groundwork, I can say what I did,
Like they walked so I could run.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And it's the same with like I mean, it's the
same with like Madonna wearing I can wear this right now,
this like Bridle mcdonnald Freu can sacrifice yourself on that MTV. Yeah,
in stage like like a virgin, Like a virgin.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
I will tell you that there's something that you said
in your response to this that resonated with me very heavy,
because I know you've seen me, and I know you've
seen me on drag Race whatever, and I know, sister,
you're seeing me. I go through a lot of stuff
online too, just because I'm loud, liveing in color. And
(39:32):
you said something just now was that you're not allowed.
I was doing a series on my Instagram letting bitches know. Bitch,
you're not allowed. You're not allowed to read my body
when you're you can't tell me that I'm bad body.
When you're built like a baked potato. You can't tell
me that my body is awful. When you're shaped like
(39:53):
a slurpy. You're not gonna do that. You're not gonna
be in my comment section doing all of this stuff
because I'm gonna take your fucking picture and I'm gonna
post your picture up there with your comment and I'm
gonna say you're not allowed. You can't do this. And
I think that what has happened is is that that
society has said, oh you're a star, let them eat
(40:14):
you up. You're making money. So the trade off is
when you're rich, your famous, you'll get to do whatever
you want to do. So these people get to say
nasty shit to you, and you should be so booked
and busy that you can't say nothing back because Ikasasha,
you said that you'll write stuff and then you'll send
it to your friend and then you'll delete it. Say
that shit. Chapel said, fuck you, You're not gonna be
(40:38):
able to say that to me. Don't call my name
like that, don't put remember that like like people have
to start breaking out of the mole so that it
can it can it can change. Like I'm letting those
people know I started on the internet. Honey, you found
me on the internet. And they always say, well, what
would Beyonce do? Okay, Beyonce in her music because that's
(41:02):
her craft. My craft is www dot And so if
you hit me while we in ww dot, I'm gonna
wwe on your hand. That's how that's gonna work. And
so moving forward, are like, does it make? Does it?
(41:22):
Are you relieved every time that you get the opportunity
to to be like, yo, hold up, I'm not ready
to turn to the side. I don't want to give
that picture yet. I'm not ready chill for a second.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Well, I will say, like walking on the Grammy's carpet,
not one person disrespected me. Not one person didn't even
like scream at me. And they wouldn't even call me
chupl They said, miss round, sweetheart? Can you turn miss round?
Miss round? It changed, and it's changed with fan behavior too,
Like that's what's so amazing also about the internet, like
(42:02):
people hate it when you call them out and immediately
it's like defensive you you, how dare you say I
can't come up and take a photo with you? I
deserve too. And it's like I told people how I feel,
I feel uncomfortable, and people listened, boundaries, boundaries, who listened,
And it's like it's it's hard to not get into
(42:30):
internet battles because it's like one, a lot of those
are bots. I have to remind myself, like a lot
of those just aren't even people. There's fucking bots. But two,
like it hurts my feelings too much. It literally just
the comments hurt my feelings too much. Yeah, it hurts
my feelings, and like, so I just don't even open them.
(42:52):
But my therapist we're talking about it because it takes
up a lot of my head space, like all the negativity.
And I understand when people get upset at like something
I do or something they disagree with. There is so
(43:13):
much in this world to be upset about. People don't
even know what to be mad about. First, and online
they have the same amount of power to comment as
I do. To comment. Everyone is like, all of a sudden,
on the same playing field a level. And because everyone
(43:38):
is so fucking oppressed that when they write something hateful
and it gets a lot of use, a lot of attention,
for once their voice matters. Yeah, finally something they said
is being recognized. Finally they can feel like they were right,
(44:01):
even if it's negative, even if it's a lie. And
so it's like these people who are so fucking mean
in the comments, like the only validation sometimes they have
is for a day on Twitter, they were they're something
they said was the most important thing.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, and it trended, and it trended, And that is
so addictive, even if it's hateful, and it's like Jesus Christ,
I of course they're going to do that.
Speaker 4 (44:32):
I remember I had like a fan who was always
right like nice things, and I wouldn't really like respond
and then decided to like switch it up and like
start saying mean stuff to like get a like get
a rise out of me. And I was I did
you guys, And I felt for it, you know, I
was like, wow, it does work. And that's what some
people are like motivated on like this negative impact, like
(44:53):
let me just I can bully you to get a
rise out of you, because really, like how you were saying, oh,
you know famous, you know she, you should just be
happy to do whatever you get. And well, it's that
mentality of like scarcity that is in all of us
that makes us feel like, oh this one just got something.
Let me go after let me just tear this person
(45:15):
apart because we're all like actually struggling. Everyone else is
like dying, so of course, just put it against this person.
And I think that's like that crowd like riot mentality,
like it just gets gets more and more. But then
after like the dust settles, then there's a boundary that
was set and all of a sudden they respect it.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah, because listen, they're not up under my comments doing
that as much as they were last week, right because
they were scared that they gonna they I was gonna
put their tour pass body up there and let them
see the honey girl, you were a baked potato. I
might be up, I might be a little sput but.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
You are baked potato girl, fully loaded.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Now, before I move to the next thing, I want
to stay here for just a second because I want
to I want to say now that both of you
are stars from Home to piggyback off of that same
villain era question, how do you have you received it
from your own people like like like, okay, let me
(46:19):
give you an example. So you know I'm on cozy
with Beyonce, right, I get some of the other trans
girls be like, oh honey, it wasn't like that she
was in the studio with Beyonce and this is a
girl or the like they try to minimalize like your
success or minimalize oh girl, be humble or or or
(46:40):
I've seen them try to petition because I've cussed the
bitch out. I've seen them try to petition to get
me removed from the song. Like these are people that
are from my own community and like stuff like this,
like you want to be able to say all this
type of trash to me, but and then and then
(47:01):
minimum minimize you know, my accolade. And then when I
cut your ass out, now you want to get me removed.
So what is it have you guys experienced that? Like
from like my own community, Like after you wont drag race,
like you your your your Roupau's drag race, You've won
(47:22):
two hundred thousand dollars. How many of the girls that
have been like, oh, child went on to my face?
But I'm sure it's like yeah, some.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
Like you know, like some like sisters or like the
girls you know, it's like very like, well, where's mine?
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Really? Is that what that is? You know? So it's like, oh,
how come her her?
Speaker 3 (47:44):
You know?
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Oh, so you have experienced it to one hundred knees.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
I find the most. I'm very confused when the queer
community ghost like just trash us on other members of
the I'm just confused. I'm always I'm just like, look,
being mad is so important. Like if you are mad,
(48:14):
that is fucking real, and you can do something with that,
like get mad enough to like make change, make change,
do something with that anger. How much hatred you have
for me, Go to your lawmakers, like, go vote, go volunteer,
like fine, but like it hurts me when queer people
(48:40):
tear me down. A lot of the queer community is
not going to agree with me, and and that hurts.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
You know, I understand exactly what both of you ladies mean,
because there's times that I give the opportunity to have
positions of a talk show, positions of a podcast, positions
of being on Beyonce, or positions like getting those positions,
and then it becomes well, why didn't you, Why didn't you,
Why didn't you say this? Why didn't you say? It's like, sweetie,
(49:10):
my presence is my activism my uh then why are
you Yeah, like, why are you saying this? Don't be
talking about all of us? Yeah, And so it's like, well, like,
well you shouldn't say that. Well what about the you know,
because I've gotten into a lot of hot water for saying, Okay,
as a you and I are in the same age
(49:33):
bracket and stuff like that. So when we were growing up,
when we're about to shake the table, so get ready,
because we want you to understand as a as a
queer woman, that we see this that we we go
through this stuff as a trans woman. When we were
(49:56):
growing up what they call us training trainees, she mails.
You know, but when we were growing up, you looked
at Cephila Wrenn. You looked at what I used to
look at. I mean, God, shiit, what's Cleopatra? She played
(50:18):
Cleopatrick Taylor, Lizabeth Taylor. You know, I looked at little
cam marya je. I'm looking at all of these women
who I wanted to transition to kind of emulate or
to look like. And now we're living in a time
and I'm not invalidating anybody's identities. I must say that.
Let me look at the camera. I'm not invalidating anyone's
(50:42):
identity as a trans person. But if you're in the
bathroom with a beard and you're shaving over the sink,
and this becomes a political piece that these people out
here campaigning against trans people and saying that, oh, well,
(51:04):
they're in the bathroom and there there are men in
the bathroom. You know, we're always going to be correlated
with men because we were born male, but we're not men.
And you're in here and you're adding to the stigma,
are shaving in the public bathroom girl. I don't know,
but they use a lot of that stuff as a
political No trans woman is walking out trying to be
(51:27):
unclockable and then pulling out, use that as a lot
of political plot. But then there are a lot of
But then when when you and I might speak out
about like girl, no, we will say something to the
to the effect of, and this we're conversating here, I
got to make sure that you're watching another having a conversation.
We would say something to the fact of, well no,
(51:48):
just like you said, yeah, well no, real passable trans
woman is in the in the bathroom shaving. Then you
get other ones, Well what about the ones that came
Then then we become the enemy, and it's like, no,
we're from different times and from the time I was
not trying to speak for everyone. Yeah, every transperson, but
our experience. But when every trans person's life is on
(52:11):
the line, Yeah, we'd like to make it a little
We'd like for you to understand that ninety nine point
nine percent of us we're trying to pass just get by.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
I just don't want to get spooked or clocked, you know,
I just want to get like I do not need
somebody pointing it out, and that's what every trans person
just wants to be. It's okay, let me talk about
the world clocking when they clock us down, because when
you look at us from the outer you see you
feel this god iss energy you see then make somebody
want to look and then they see it and then
(52:45):
they have to be like, Okay, how am I going
to objectify you as a woman? And then once they
find out they can't because you weren't born a woman,
then that's a problem. But first they're going to see
how can I objectify you the amount of times in
order for me to like go through the airport and
just not get misgendered the sweatshirt, I have to like
sexualize myself. I've have my tits out and like during
TSA and then they'll call me a woman. Then I'm
cool because you want to objectify me. But I have
(53:08):
to go through all that. So I'm then not going
to go and shave my beard in the sink at gates. SA, No,
it's not happening.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yeah. Yeah, So we feel you. I feelt everything that
you said because it becomes like when you when you
when you're a public figure and you've received all the
accolades that you've received and the public is receiving you.
Now the responsibility is I have to drag my commune,
every every sort of role model.
Speaker 4 (53:36):
It's like I didn't ask for that. I want a
competition about doing dragging me and Shady. There was nothing
about waiting, no Nobel prest prize. I do not know
all the answers. And that's what they had like when
I was when I was doing like my reigning tour,
a lot of questions, a lot of like interviews of like,
you know, really like strong political things, and I'm like,
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
I'm not the answer to that, Like that's not what
I'm here for. I don't know how to answer that question.
Can't be the one to answer that because it's we
two loaded. Every time TMZ runs into me, they want
to ask me something about like trans stuff, and I'm like, okay, great,
I'm trans. But like they asked me about trans in sports.
My answer is, there are five hundred thousand athletes that
(54:21):
are in sports. Ten of them are trans. I'm not
in sports. Ten of them are trans. The government is
focusing on the wrong thing. That's my answer. Don't ask
me if I want to play basketball. If I want
a volleyball, don't ask me if I want to. If
I want to be on the swim, I don't want it.
I'm not listen. I fail pe, Bitch, I'm back, I
(54:44):
fail Pe. I don't know how to answer that. So, ladies,
we've gotten to this point of our show, and it's
called ban it Bitch. Okay, now, this is one of
(55:05):
my favorite segments, Ban it Bitch. Now. Some people out
here are banning drag shows, LBGTQ, plus books and even
our very existence. But we're flipping the script. What's something
you would ban if you ran the world? Now, here's
how this works. We each get one minute to make
(55:29):
our case for what needs to go. Producers will keep
track of time and call out when there's thirty seconds
and ten seconds left. Let me kick it off to
show you how it's done. And this is how we're
gonna do it. So now while I'm doing it, both
of you ladies can think about something. So it's just
gonna be a minute, So you think about something that
(55:50):
you want to ban. Already, I already know what I'm
getting ready up so you can watch me. Hey, y'all,
my neighbor is here's the Madison, honey, and it's time
for ban it, bitch. All right, you ready, you ready
count me down? Let's go. My neighbor is tiens Mass
and if I ran the world, I would ban the
policing on responding to a negative person. Let me tell
you something, Every single time that a negative bitch gets
(56:12):
down in my comment section, I'm gonna respond back to
they fucking ass, especially if I'm sitting in first class, honey,
or or or I'm being catered to, honey, and I
don't have anything else to do but look down there
and see that negative shit that you say, and I
cuss your motherfucking ass out. I'm tired of y'all being
able to say whatever the fuck you want to say,
and because I'm a star, I can't say anything back. Bitch,
(56:33):
you gonna get this work. If you tap on my door,
I'm gonna work your ass out, honey, like a trainer
in a gym. Bitch, I'm gonna work you out, especially
if you girls are built up like slurpies and telling
me that my body is bad. Bitch, I want to
ban you from being in my comment section. I want
to ban an ugly bitch for calling me ugly bitch.
(56:53):
You look like Miguilla Gorilla. I want to ban a
fat bitch from calling me fat bitch. You are big
ass the goddamn state of Idaho.
Speaker 3 (57:01):
Girl.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
There is no way that you're going to have the
ability to lay me out anymore without me responding. I
ban it, bitch.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
That good?
Speaker 4 (57:12):
Who I felt that good? I get it to Capitol Hill. Okay, yes, ladies,
that that's what you have to figure out.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
What's ban on that? I'm that passionate about it for.
Speaker 5 (57:25):
A whole.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Yeah, do you have your I.
Speaker 3 (57:32):
Can I do multiple things?
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Baby?
Speaker 3 (57:34):
Okay? Hi, I'm Chapel Roone, and these are things that
I think should be banned. Band it Okay, I ban
hot takes. I don't want to see your hot take.
I don't care. I just want to see fun things online.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I don't care.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
If you are HI publicist here.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
I don't believe you.
Speaker 3 (57:56):
First of all. Also, if you're a publicist, get the
fuck out of the comments to do your job. An
of all, I don't think you actually know anything about
me at all. Second of all pop crave ban it,
third of all cork shoes ban it.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
Ugly period. I felt like the weight off of your shoulders.
She said, I'm gonna live. I'm gonna do a few too.
Speaker 4 (58:29):
Then let me just take it out, okay.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
All right, then go on a tangent.
Speaker 4 (58:35):
This.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
My name is Sasha Koby.
Speaker 4 (58:37):
All right, ready, my name is Sasha Kobe. And if
I ruled the world, I would ban Let me see,
where would I ban? I would ban like any dating
apps that UH approve these men holding fishes as their
(58:57):
profile pick.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
I don't want to see your fish. I don't want
to know your boat because it just looks like you're
about to remove that fish as a body and I'm
not about it. What else would I ban? I would ban.
Speaker 4 (59:08):
Hmmm, oh gosh, what else would I ban?
Speaker 1 (59:16):
I mean hateful people, awful comments. I would ban bad drag.
I would ban not wash well. I would ban anybody
who is not washing their pads from my space.
Speaker 4 (59:27):
Go wash your stuff. I would ban the current government
right now, I've banned that. And I would ban me
from the women's bathroom because I would love to go
in the bathroom with your husbands.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
And then we go, honey, this has been banned. Bitch. Wait,
you're gonna be in the bathroom. I mean if I
get to go into that, if I had to go
into these bathrooms, I want to be able to go
into the like the bathhouses too once. I think, never
let us the trains girls. They never let the transend
in the bath house. See how you go. Only the
(01:00:07):
gay men have been allowed to go in the in
the in the bath houses. And they've also been only
allowed to go to the sex parties like they would
like if you were trains, you couldn't go there. Like
why the mass is really pick or choose, it's really
hind picked. It's like why because like you, I can't
(01:00:27):
help that we're in between ladies. I would like to
tell you I've had the most wonderful time interviewing you both.
You have been wonderful guests. Chapel, I didn't get to
tell you my kink is karma. There's a line in
your song run It, Trent, tell me the line. People say,
(01:00:53):
I'm jealous, but my kink is watching you ruin your life. Yeah,
every time I have an X, he gets this, May
you never sleep, may you never slumber, May you reach
and never grasp. And I get a kink out of
(01:01:15):
watching their lives fall completely apart.
Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
It feels good.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
It feels good. It feels good to know that all
of those people that threw you away, that all of
those people that counted you out, that those people that
walked out of your life, that those people that wished
ill for you, that all they got to do is
wait for karma. And it's definitely gonna come around. And
(01:01:39):
my kinky ass is going to be right there in
a pair of boots watching it. Fuck you down? Did
y'all have a good time? All ladies? Thank you, Thank
you so much for taking the time out of y'all
busy schedule. Honey, I love you very much, and y'all
are always welcome on the Outlaws podcast with Ts Mass
(01:02:03):
Can We Do It? Outlaws is a production of the
Outspoken Network from iHeart Podcasts and Turtle Run Entertainment, co
created by Tyler Rabinowitz and Olivia Piece. I'm your host
Tias Madison. We are executive produced by Tyler Rabinowitz, Maya Howard,
and Tis Madison. Our supervising producer is Jessica Krinchich, and
(01:02:24):
our producers are Joey pat and Common Bra. Our video
editor is Tyler Rabinowitz and our sound editor is Jes Crinchic.
Our associate producer is Trent high Tower Special thanks to
our producer's assistant Daniel Rabinowitz. Our theme song is composed
by Wazi Merritt. Our show art is by Pablo Martina.
(01:02:45):
Cat You Next Week, Honey,
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