Laverne Cox: In My Resilient Zone

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Every time I open up my mouth up and goes out.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Don't wait two inches b b b.

Speaker 1 (00:06):
D b d bed yourself, get a job, ricking honey,
rick hoon, chasing it all. I'm black like that.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Sbout living. It's color easy.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
This is Outlaws with Tears Medicine.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
What's up, everybody? This is your grow tears Medicine. I'm
coming to you loud, live and in color from the
Outlaws Podcast with Tears Medicine on I Heart Radio. I
have with me the legend, bitch, the mother, the trendsetter.
This plan to the girl, who I have said on

(01:05):
countless times is one of the most educated black trans
women who I love to see speak and I would
love to see somewhere in Congress or in the White
House or somewhere. Ladies, Jenle, put your hands together for
the award winning in which she's gonna get into it herself.
Laverne Cox, I need to just say that so that

(01:29):
you can follow up because I talk a lot of shit.
But don't you ever let no bitch make you think
that I don't respect you. Don't you ever let no
bitch make you think that I don't that your presence
even though you are more articulate in things than me,

(01:50):
and you occupy lots of spaces way large. I don't
have a jealous bone in my body for the because
I couldn't. Some spaces do in I can't do.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
And the things you do I can't do.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
And I'm so grateful for you and your voice because
there's something, there's a connection, and sometimes I try not.
I'm not jealous of you, but I'm just aware because
a lot of the media I consume. I'm like, I
watched I watched Monkeys the Need, but I watched you.
I watched like and I'm just like when I did
Breakfast Club, it was cool, but I was just like, I.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
Don't I'm not for everybody. I don't translate to everyone.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
I think, and I think it's there's a you know,
I talk a certain way I've been I'm fifty two
years old. Wow, I started using the term that Bell
Hook's coin impeerless why supremacist capitalist patriarchy thirty years ago.
I've been talking about intersectionality for thirty years and moving
beyond the gender binary since I read Juice Butler in

(02:51):
college in the early nineties. So I'm like, I'm a
college girl I'm a gender theory girl. I'm like and
that's just part of who I am. But I'm an artist.
I went to art school and so I studied opera.
I've studied ballet.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
So like, that's just me.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
And and I love don't apologize for it.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
I love me, but it's but what.

Speaker 4 (03:16):
I realized sometimes when I go to the breakfast club,
when I'm in certaince basis, it's like, I'm gonna have
to be myself. I have to myself and I'm going
to talk the way that I talk, and I think
I'm real and down to earth. What I what I
know is even though like I'm college, I'm educated or whatever.
I was broke until twenty fifteen. Like I was in

(03:40):
student loan debt. I was waiting tables and working in
restaurants in New York for nineteen years before Orange is
the New Black, barely making it. I had an eviction
notice in twenty twelve. I had a viction notice in
twenty ten. I was when I booked Oranges a New Black.
I was on a payment plan. Oh girl, I was
on a payment plan to avoid eviction for my apartment.
It was low income housing in New York. And when

(04:03):
I did my backstory episode for Orange. Jody Foster, who directed,
I got so much she did, she did likes, multiple takes.
I got so much overtime. I was able to pay
my back rent and pay my rent six months in advance.
And so when Orange broke, I wasn't making money from Netflix,
but I was able. I wanted to do a college
tour for years, and so I was using Orange to

(04:26):
hustle and do my college das. And my speaking fee
was really low at the time, so three or four
times a week I was in three cities, three days,
four cities and four days shooting Orange for like until
for like two or three years, just hustling. But I
started twenty fifteen debt free, and that was when I
could start to see.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Your money, save, build and start building.

Speaker 4 (04:49):
I didn't have a retirement account, I didn't have any
you know, I was I had been an artist, like
someone in New York working to be an artist with
a dance degree. I think, I mean, I think there's
something ridiculous about having a dance degree. But I was
committed to being an artist. I was committed to like
there was no plan B, there was no backup, and

(05:11):
I know I'm a smart girl, but like I was
almost a trans girl. And when I was time to
transition in the late nineties, So I graduated in ninety
six and then I started medical transition in ninety eight.
I was just like, I want to act, but there's
no transactors like in the public. So I went to
fashion school. I went to fit for three semesters and

(05:32):
he was like, I don't want to do this.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
I want to act.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
Anyway, I'm here, so like, yes, an education is an
incredible privilege. And when I and I do believe that
I've been able to move in the spaces I've been
able to move in because of the way that I speak.
The white space. Yeah, I've been to and there's a
white and there's being white. Famous is different.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
We always talk about this, but we're gonna talk about it. Yeah,
but anyway, that was a lot. No, there was no
that was perfect because you you you gave me that.
Now I want you to look into that camera because
there's a segment that we have on my show. It's
called talk your Shit.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Now.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
It's time for you to talk your shit. Who you are,
what you do, what you're proud of, what you won. Bitch,
I'm sick. This is the time for you to big
up yourself and let a bitch know that I'm Laverne
Cox and I'm livern. I'm a Livern Cox for a reason,
and I want you to say it so that I'm

(06:32):
over here saying yes, bitch, that's why you're our president.

Speaker 4 (06:35):
Elegged ladies, gentlemen, non binary siblings before you, it's the
Laverne Cox. And if you do not know, bitch, where
you been, because bitch, I am the first, yes, the

(07:00):
very first openly transgender woman to be on the cover
of Time magazine, to be on the cover of British
Vogue twice, to be on the cover of Cosmopolitan magazine,
Essence magazine twice, Entertainment Weekly, and the list goes on
and on and on. The first one correct open the door.

(07:22):
I am the first openly transgender woman to be nominated
for a Critics' Choice Award. I'm the first openly transgender
woman to be nominated for a Prime Time Emmy Award
in Acting, which happened in twenty fourteen. And then I
was nominated three more times, yes, four Emmy nominations, Primetime
Emmy nominations. Honey, the first one don't get it twisted.

(07:46):
I'm the first transgender woman to have a wax figure
at Madame Tussau's I have changed the lives of girls, boys,
LGBTQ plus people all over the world.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
And you know how I know this.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
I have traveled the world and met them, and they
have told me that they transitioned because they saw me
on TV, that they rekindled relationships with their parents, because
their parents realize their trans people are human beings because
they saw me on TV. I just executive produced, co
created and Start in Clean State, which is currently streaming

(08:23):
on Prime Video and was the number one comedy on
Prime Video in its first week out. Honey, there's so
many more things. If they said, I have two Saguars
along with the cast of Orange is the New Black,
two Saguars. They're very heavy, Timothy Schallameau told us the
other days. They're very They're very heavy.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Honey. I had to reinforce my shelf for all the
awards that I have. I have girls.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
I like no, no, no, I like this because this
is this is the part of liverl we don't get
to see and nobody in this room is judging you
for this. Does it feel good to be able to
say that. Does it feel to be honest with Joseph.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Yeah, it feels good.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
It feels good.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
It feels good, and it feels good because none of
it's been easy. None of it's been easy, and I'm
always thinking about the next thing and always trying to
get to the next level and get better.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
But it is nice to be like, bitch, yes, I
did that.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
I still here and I absorbed that I and it
took that in like, yes, bitch, she's the first and
I'll be the third, you know.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
But one of the things I'm with the Emmys, So
what I'm really proud of is I'm the first, you know,
to be nominated for Prime to me, but I'm not
the last.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
There have been.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Others who have followed, Yes, and that is That's the
best part for me, honestly, because it's never part of
the reason I don't break this because it's not about me.
But I always have to remind myself that it's it's
bigger than me. And and I think sometimes people in
this business get the egos and get the whatever because
they think it's about them. And I know, and I
think the reason all these things have happened is for me.

(10:09):
I've worked hard. I'm talented, I love acting, I love
what I do, and I've worked really hard at it.
But the service piece that I'm here for God to
use me and to be a service in the world.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yes, But the thing about it is I want you
to feel good that you can say those things because
it feels good. It feels good in a world because
we are heavily scrutinized as just trans people. By because
she's a very highly educated woman, I'm going to be
using the term Cish gender with her. You can say

(10:43):
non tran, I'm going to say, I'm gonna say since
cinced because we have an intellectual conversation here. Okay, not
to say that you're not intellectually ready, but girl, with the.

Speaker 4 (10:53):
Gag is the gag is because I even got to
a point where people got me saying that like you
sis gender was like a slur, and so the date,
the deep part of that is that it's just a
scientific term, and people are losing their minds over CIS.
And the reason they're losing their minds elon mess bying
different x or Twitter or whatever. The reason they're losing

(11:15):
their minds is because using the term cis actually acknowledges
that they're trans people too.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
And I'm not sis, I'm just a woman. Just saying
I'm just a woman or I'm just a man.

Speaker 4 (11:26):
It's usually women, but whoever, it's really ultimately a problem
with trans people. They're just acknowledging like facts, right, but
as a anyway, as a I.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Don't know, Lene, I need all this. I love all
of this. This is what I love about you.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
I have allowed to say.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
I need you to know that when we're talking about
you know, us as trans people and CIS gender people
like to throw around or you're just a man in
a wig. No, no, darling, you just talked your shit. Now,
I'm not just a man in a wig. Ma'am, ma'am
or sir, i am an Immy nominated, I'm a sag

(12:03):
two times, sag, I'm a time, I'm not.

Speaker 4 (12:05):
I'm not a man in wake and and your men
you're a man knows man knows that I'm not a man,
and that you know with the men that we that
because we're all having we're all fucking the same man,
and the men know who we are. When it should
hit the fans, sometimes they'll like, you know, call us

(12:25):
out of our names, but they know who we are.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
You know, they see they see they see a woman,
they see women, and they know.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
So my thing is, since we're since we're there, we're there. Recently,
there's been a lot of things about this outing thing,
like girls outing men, and.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
I haven't seen there's so much going on, I can't
keep up.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
So the girls are well, okay, Well, recently there's a
situation to transpire with one of our nieces sisters in
the community where one of the basketball and so so
I've recently watched a lot of conversation go around about it,
and there was one point in which I'm still on

(13:18):
the line with that. There was one area where I
used to be like, well, why if you're a trans woman,
why are you using your transits as a weapon? Now
are aren't you just a woman? So why are you
using your transits as a weapon. But in that same breath,
I think it's delibre in me and you're a gemini,

(13:40):
so we see things in it. In that same breath,
I've gotten to the place where I had to think
about ship that has happened to me with men, and
I'm not going to be protecting you, and you get
to go home and you get to go away from
me and live your your fabulous life, or you get
to just do some harm or some ill shiit to
me and you get to walk away and just be like, Yeah,

(14:04):
I think.

Speaker 4 (14:04):
There's what the situation and that that that I believe
you're speaking of. She hadn't even fucked him. The fuck
the guy, she just like revealed his DMS, and so like,
I have a lot of sex worker friends who are
trans sex workers, and the smart ones.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
It, and I think that that's all.

Speaker 4 (14:25):
And I think, I think when you're a sex worker
and you have a client, that's a contract and part
of what they're paying for is silence, and so I
think you should honor that and I respect my girls
who do this.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
Dude, I don't, I don't.

Speaker 4 (14:41):
I don't know the full circumstances. That was just it's
I got the sense from just a cursory read that
he was annoying her, and I think she openly does
sex work and he didn't want to pay. She was
just annoyed and she was just like, screw you, and
then like you know, put hiss DM out there, and
so it's I think, like if she were not, if
she were not brands, because there's si women do this

(15:01):
too all the times, women who you know, the celebrity
slides in, they pour the tea, they pour the tea,
and it's just they do it all the time, and
it just it's looked. It's not looked at in the
same way.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
It just isn't like it. They they may be called
their cloud chasing, their whatever, but it's not looked.

Speaker 4 (15:21):
It's just I think the culture just looks for any
reason to demonize us, yes, and any man, and like
even with we are allegedly outing men, it's never about them.
It's that we will make in a patriarchal culture, will
make any excuse to let men off the hook.

Speaker 3 (15:41):
I just watched this video with Oliam L.

Speaker 4 (15:43):
Lauren where she just talked about domestic with violence and
women and Meg Meg the Stallion with toy Lane Any
There's so many examples of in domestic violent situations where
like men have done despicable things and the woman will
get demons nice this women, and we have this in
comments this women and trans women. They will do anything

(16:06):
that demonized the woman, and then what about the dude
who's acting acting reckless because if you you're not going
to be outed by any girl unless she's just trash,
if you're respectful, if you're doing what you're supposed to do,
whether it's a transaction or whether it's you know, you're
just having sex because you want to have sex, or

(16:27):
even the communication. When I was on the market, like
I before my last boyfriend, I'm single again. Before my
last boyfriend, I was, I was on the apps and
I was blocking like a motherfucker. I was blocking. I
was unmatching because even the interaction with me needed to
meet a certain criteria because I didn't have energy or time,

(16:47):
and many many men can't approach you even with that
on a dating app. So I just and many men,
whether you're SIS or trans, are wiling and doing crazy
like stepping to women in crazy ways, and it's just
like we never want to really critique that or have
a conversation about that. We always want to demonize women.

(17:10):
And so I think that like the the transphobia, it's
it's trans misogyny, it's related to massage noir.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
It's like so many of usually the women, let's just.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
Talk talk about women because they're I think the primary
audience for you and me the women who may or
may not have issues who have issues with trans women.
And I'll say black women because they are different from
the turfs who are usually white.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Usually they're there's rarely a.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
Critique of patriarchy and their critiques of trans women. And
when you are when you actually have a critique of patriarchy.
When I say patriarchy, I mean institutional sexism and the
culture of patriarchy. And Bell Hook's my feminist idol reminds
us that we don't need men for patriarchy. Women can

(18:04):
perpetuate patriarchy just like men can. So transphobia and missogy
and patriarchy are linked, and they're linked with men and
men who portrayed it and in women, yes, who perpetrayed
So where is our in terms of like if we're
interested in liberation and everybody's not. Most of us have

(18:24):
been socialized into a patriarchal culture that we have to unlearn,
a racist culture that we have to unlearned transphobia.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
There's a whole system.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
And ideology that makes us feel like we're less than
because we're trans, we're less than because we're black, because
we're women. And part of decolonizing our minds is unlearning
that and like coming to new spaces of critical consciousness.
And these things are interlinked and constantly working together. This
is when Bale Hook says, imperialless white supremacist capitalist patriarchy.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
And I repeat that in her honor.

Speaker 4 (18:56):
It's to sugges, it's to remind myself and everyone listing
at these systems imperialist, white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. Add to that,
cis normative, heteronormative imperialists, white supremacist capitalist patriarchy are working.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
Together at all times and tandem.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
The ways in which even the transphobia that really kicked off,
I call it target Gate and bud light Gate two
years ago when that happened with Dylan, Yes, and target
not just me, but a lot every trans person. I know,
their money their money was affected. Yeah, after that, their

(19:35):
money was affected. So we saw this transfer transphobia from
the right that was completely manufactured out of nothing because
they just wanted to demonize somebody. They targeted corporations and
corporations it's all about that bottom line and you know,
making their jufari responsibilities to the shareholders. And so those

(19:55):
corporations who had their priests and prideat all of a sudden, Oh.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
It's too dangerous actually be with these trans people.

Speaker 4 (20:03):
Yes, So that it is capitalism and transphobia, like working
together capitalism and patriarchy. We can talk about the pay gap,
we can talk about a contraception, we can talk about
how all these things are constantly working together.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, in every aspect, in every single aspect. And my
thing is why are we protecting men? Like why? And
so it's I mean it's complicated, it is complicated, but
but why.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
I think when it.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
Comes to black men, specifically we women, since women and
trans women. I mean, when Megan didn't initially report that
Torius shot her, she was trying to protect him because
often black men are murdered by the police.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Yeah, black women have been doing this for decades, centuries.

Speaker 4 (20:52):
When we've been abused by black men, we don't want
them to be arrested and ending up in this system
that's going to abuse them.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
So that's that.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
So there's that part, And then I think there is
also the piece of do we think we deserve that
treatment for me personally?

Speaker 3 (21:09):
When I.

Speaker 4 (21:12):
When I was knowingly and choosing to date men who
were closeted and kept me on the low. I thought
that's what I deserved, really, absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
I felt you maybe you never went through this.

Speaker 4 (21:29):
I felt like that's all I could get, and that's
what I was worth. And so that's what I was
choosing over and over and over again. And I think
there's a lot of trans girls out there who have
felt and may feel that right now. I felt like
I'm trans, and then I wasn't you know, I was.
I was clocky according to all the girls, and so

(21:49):
I got what I could get.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
So let me ask you this, all right, and maybe
maybe you can help me because you're more deeply rooted
in dissecting things when it comes to stuff like this.
I am in a space where I am a black,
transgender woman.

Speaker 4 (22:15):
The men, the.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Men that I date, identify as heterosexis gender heterosexual men.
That's their identity.

Speaker 4 (22:24):
I don't give a fuck what these people out there
try to say what they ain't because they're doing this
and they can't tell somebody here that's their identity.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
So that's how that works. I have told myself, and
maybe this could speak to what you were saying earlier.
I've told myself that, oh, this is gonna be deep,
because this probably maybe backs a little bit, that little
bit of that what you just said. Uh, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
Tell me.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
I've said to myself, Madison, the natural order is men
like fucking pussy. They like the fuck pussy. So when
y'all get together, you don't have I don't have a pussy.
I don't have I don't I don't have an s
R S. I don't have a pussy. I was not
born female. I have the gentle tale that that God

(23:14):
gave me. And so when gentlemen deal with me, they
deal with with me in totality. Sometimes they sometimes they
may feel like a nut. Sometimes they don't. Honey, all
enjoy has nuts, mountains don't. And so sometimes they may
want to play. But when a man is dealing with me,
he's dealing with me because of me, my personality, my

(23:37):
my tore past body, my mug, whatever it is that
he that he's he's attracted to. I understand that there
are areas of his sexual desires that I can't feel
because I don't have a pussy. So I don't feel
like that.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
I'm get me some water, yeah, somebody would be great.
Do you want do you want a beverie still waters? Fine?

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, you don't want to alcohol.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
No, girl, I never.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
Drink and while I'm working, except when I did siffins
Field with Johnny That's the first time in my career
I've drink. I was like, I don't have a drink.
That's the first time I've ever drank at work. Watch
all the watch What Happens Lives, I've done not a
zip of alcamis.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
I like that you riffed. I needed to see that.
I don't get to see that from you, and I
needed to see that because it feels liberating to do that,
because a bitch would try to deduce you to what
you did. What No bitch, let me, let me remind you.

Speaker 4 (24:37):
And I think too, what I was really interesting when
I was in I was in London in twenty was it? Yeah,
I was in well, I was in Paris, in Berlin,
in London in twenty fifteen when Caitlyn Jenner's Vanity Fair
cover came out with it, Yeah, Vandy Fair cover came
out and I was doing press for Orange, and I

(24:58):
was just like, everybody's going to be asking about Kaitlin,
and so I wrote a piece for Tumblr. And so
that first day of press for Orange, when journalists asked me,
Kaitlyn is on the cover of Vandy Fair. So it
was June first and I was in Berlin. I was like, oh,
I'd wrote a piece on Tumblr refer to that let's
talk about the show. And then the next day they
had read the piece. Who was still asking me about
her and on Tumblr I put her cover next to

(25:20):
my Time cover. It was basically a year after and
I mean, obviously the Kardashian reach is huge, but I
remember I was in London and this guy was just like,
oh my god, I just read this piece about you.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
You're on the cover of Time magazine like he had.

Speaker 4 (25:36):
Missed it, you know, but no one missed Caitlyn's you know,
Vanity Fair cover, So that was I was like, interesting.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Guess that we don't miss that bitch now. But we'll
get to that regular as hope.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
But it was it was just part of it is like,
I mean, Time Magazine, Brandity Fair, Kardashians, but it was Caitlyn.
Kaitlyn herself said it was Gina Rossero, Janet Mock and
me that inspired her to come out as trans and
I was I was also glamoring one with the year
in twenty fourteen. Yes, I had no controversy. I was

(26:10):
Glamoring when I was the first openly trans woman to
be named Glamor Woman of the Year in twenty fourteen.
But in twenty fifteen, when Caitlin took the honor, it
was a different story and it was controversial and it
was a thing, and I had done it with the
year before. So go aheads, it's a it's a It's

(26:32):
just it was. It's deep watching and I'm writing a
book now too, so but it's deep watching how black
people open a door that other people can walk through,
and then the black person gets erased.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
I haven't been erased. I'm still here.

Speaker 4 (26:53):
But that's why we have to talk to your shit segment.
And I think you know I have to say and
I Allan and Arry I I adore Allan. This is
the ts Madison Outlaw Show. I So that same year,
in twenty fifteen, I was being honored by Fashion during
Fashion Week by Fashion Media. I was getting an award

(27:14):
during Fashion Week and Katie Kirk was presenting me the award.
Mark Bauer made address for me.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
It was lovely. I showed up.

Speaker 4 (27:22):
Mark was there, Katie was there to introduce me. Alan
Cummings gets up and he announces the scoop of the
year and the scoop was Caitlyn Jenner's Vanity Fair article
and it was for the journalist.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
The journalist I think wasn't there. And then Alan's it.

Speaker 4 (27:38):
You know, Kitlyn, you know, opened the doors and showed
the world who trans people are. And she's the first
one to do the He was saying all this like
she's the princess, and he was just like praising Kitlyn
like she was the first to do all these things.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
And it caught the world what trans was.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
And I was in the room and I was like
it was and no shade, I mean, no shade to
I lived for Alan Cummings. I'm a huge fan of
him as an artist, as a human being, but it's
like that happened in front of my face. But what
the beautiful thing is, Maddie, is that after her he

(28:16):
did that. Katie Curry gets up to introduce me and
she talks about the experience that we had on her show,
which was in twenty fourteen, and how it changed her
and she's become this wonderful advocate for trans people. Katie
Kirk really is like an example of what it means
to be teachable.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, a public one. We need more of those examples.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
And she introduces me, and I get up and I
risk speech tunny, and I get a standing innovation. I'mbrigigia
died was there and it's you know, fat nailed me
with there, Edward, the girls were there, you know, And
I get a standing ovation.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
And what is what is beautiful about? It's so there's
two things. It's like.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
The erasure of the accomplishments of black people who blaze trails,
that's still happening. But the beautiful thing is for me
in that moment and in my life, is that I'm
just gonna keep showing up and being in exceptional and
doing my thing.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, see, this is why you are amazing at what
you do. Because me, I would have got up after
it was all done and tiptoed up Dan and be like, no, no,
let's get the record straight. Here the record.

Speaker 4 (29:29):
We got the Katie Kuric straight in the record. She
did she, I mean because she read my bio. She
read my bio like a year. Like right by the
time Kaitlyn came out, I had been Glamor Woman of
the Year. I'd gotten Immy nomination and Critics' Choice nomination.
I'd be on the cover of Ethens. I've been on
the cover of Time magazine. I you know, I was
named Time Magazine's most fourth most Influential fictional character of

(29:52):
twenty thirteen. All the I could keep going, All these
things had happened before Kaitlyn came out. So yeah, and
Katie read that. Yeah she read that, and so she so,
so the room understood that Caitlyn was not the first,

(30:12):
and that and her politicis. I used to be diplomatic
with her. I don't feel the need to do that anymore.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
We don't need to. She she's I'm the first transperson
she ever talked to, by the way.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
I don't know if people know that, like before she
came out, a mutual friend of ours, because there were rumors,
if you remember, like people there were rumors that she
was doing in a transition before it even happened. And
I remember like being in a hotel room watching on tour,
watching Keeping Up the Kardashians.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
I never watched it, but they was on TV, and
I was just like I spooked. I spooked the.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Ffs, Like I was like, yeah, we saw it.

Speaker 4 (30:47):
We saw it, we knew and so anyway, she a
mutual friend was like, all the rumors are true about Caitlyn.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
I won't dead name her.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
And she's never talked to a transperson, which you talked
to her and I said absolutely, And it was Thursday.
I was like, give her my number. She calls me
the next day. We talk and it was lovely. She
talked about her kids and like she was very surgery,
you know, the surgery she had had, the surgery, explaining
to have she was ready to you know, snatched. And
it was lovely and she seemed like a lovely person

(31:19):
from that first conversation. And I think people are really
and maybe she's really lovely in private. Her politics are
deeply problematic for our community.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Completely detrimental, detrimental, evil privilege. She shows her whiteness over
her transness. It's she chose.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
There's plenty of white trans No, she chose to be
a white man.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
She shows, she shows to be a white man.

Speaker 4 (31:49):
There are trans women who are younger, who didn't live
as long in their sign gender who are also conservatives.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
People are conservative for so many different reasons.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
I mean, when you listen to you Caitlyn, it feels like,
and you listen to a lot of people on the
right wing, it's like they've been propaganda. It's to and
indoctrinated into this like right wing conspiracy theory jargon that
started with Rush Limbaugh that's been cultivated on the right
wing for fifty.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
L They chose whiteness. I don't give a fuck those
they chose whiteness. They didn't want to see a black
woman hold the seat. That's just what it was. I
love Carol Cunningham, but I just was like, girl, you
have a million followers. Anybody that has and listen, and

(32:37):
I love a man the Seals too, but anybody that
was putting any doubts against you know, the vice president,
madam the vice president at the time, she was the better.
She's she was the best.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
She had two choices. I think that, like I.

Speaker 4 (32:54):
Think being critical of Democratic Party is important, but when
it comes down and that's I think that's for the primaries.
It comes down to a general election, they're party candidates
aren't going to win. No, we had two choices. There's
actually but if you Vigilante Inc. Is a documentary Greg Oh.
I can't think of Greg's last name, looking anyway, There's

(33:16):
a gentleman named Greg He's an investigative reporter, did a
lot of it, did a documentary call Vigilante Inc. And
found hard evidence that the twenty three four election was stolen.
Greg Polast Greg Palas found hardcore data from the government
that voter we know, we knew voter roles were being purged.

(33:39):
And there's a challenge thing that's actually in twenty different
states where any individual citizen can challenge anyone's vote, and
it happened big time in Georgia. An any citizen can
be like, I don't think these persons lives here. They
are challenge to the votes. And Greg Plas estimates that
Kamala Harris lost about three million votes because of between

(34:02):
the purges, the suppression and these voter challenges and three
million votes were thrown.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Out and Laverne they were using starlink to count the votes.
Starlink is an Elon musk No situations.

Speaker 4 (34:16):
So so you know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but
I love the hard data. I love something that you
can go and prove. And this is when this is
when I've become really critical of the Democratic Party. There
was an opportunity basically when Biden won in twenty twenty
and then in twenty twenty one, remember when all the
Georgia tech all the states they were passing. No, they

(34:40):
were the states I think we're still run by like
a lot of the southern states run by Republicans. Remember
the laws, the new laws that they were in the
voter of restricting laws where you couldn't give people water
in line and tourista u yes, where they were cold
closing polling places, they were purging voter roles like twenty
plus states implemented new voter restriction laws. The Democrats did nothing,

(35:04):
nothing about it. There was a bill HR one that
was introduced in Congress that Biden didn't push. I don't
know if they had I don't know if they had
a majority in twenty twenty one in the House, but
there was no push for it.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
There was no I mean, he wasn't, bless his heart,
he couldn't.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
He was just like this thing right.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
But the Democratic Party did nothing. They they lost power.
They just let these all these votis repression laws stand.
They have not been fighting. The Republicans don't give a fuck. No,
they don't give a fuck, and they will do any gangster,
illegal shit to get power and maintain it.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
Yes, because they know they don't have the majority, was it.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Paul ry Rich, who founded the Heritage Foundation in the
nineteen seventies, said we don't win when we have more
people come out to vote.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
There's a video. We don't win with more people.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
We need to have fewer people come out if we
want to win as Republicans. He knew that in the
late nineteen seventies and early eighties. So they know the
more people who come out to vote, Democrats have a
better chance to win. So Republicans and Conservatives have been
suppressing votes since black people could both.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Correct and so my thing is anybody who was pushing
anybody away from from from Kamala. I was just like, girl,
this is even though said was this the lesser of two?
I mean, they're both too evils. But the conversation was,
would you want to hang from a tree on Friday
or would you want to wait two fridays later to

(36:38):
hang from a fucking tree?

Speaker 4 (36:39):
As disappointing as the Democratic Party is what we're experiencing
right now, girl, girl, Yes, the implementation of Project twenty
twenty five before our eyes. Yes, all of the things
that have been the city's public health. Like, I mean,
it's girl, all it's insane. It's there's there's not there's

(37:03):
no comparison, right, And all the Democrats who said he
is a fascist, we have to fight fascism and save democracy,
and then he won and then they started like softening
their language. It's like, why was he a fascist before
the election and now because they're trying to get favor
with power. He's still a fascist, yes, and he's doing

(37:23):
fascist things yes, like in front of our faces, and
we're gagging.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, people who.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Voted for him are gagging.

Speaker 4 (37:32):
The farmers who are like and are losing crops and
money and may have to like close their farms. All
the government employees who have been laid off, I mean,
it goes on and on. But the public health, peace,
all the people from the CDC who have been fired,
us with withdrawing from the World Health Organization, and just
this Robert F.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
Kennedy definite believe girl, it's a mess. It's awful. It's
a mess.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
They're defunding everything. There's no I mean Medicaid, the medicaid
people in nursing homes. They're trying to defund medicaid, all
your elderly parents who are in nursing homes right now.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
It's it's bonkers.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
And the thing about it is anybody who was pushing
them away from Kamala, I feel away. I feel away
at this point. It is what it is.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
It is what it is.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
But it's just like, okay, now, bitch, we all in
this and for all of y'all that was over there
with y'all hands clapping, y'all hands together, honey, thinking that
they were going to do all these to the fags
and the trainees and all this type of stuff. Girl,
you were on the chopping block too.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Any what I would love for people to hear.

Speaker 4 (38:38):
I mean, there's a lot of things I probably really
hear from me today and really understand. No matter who
you are in America, particularly under this regime, but in general,
if you are not a capitalist, i e. Your if
your money is made, if your money's not made from
other people's labor, where you're sitting home or you're doing

(39:02):
whatever and other people are working you're making money, those
are Those are the capitalists. If you have to show
up somewhere to get a check, you're working class. Even
if you're a millionaire. Even if you're a multimillionaire, if
you have to show up somewhere to get a check,
you're working class. During ours, our actors strike, so many
famous actors.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
And we know this from athletes too, though. We even the.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Athletes who have these multimillion dollar contracts are still working
class if they invest their money properly and you know,
they'll you know, generate wealth. But they're taxed. They're taxed
in an insane way. It's the billionaires, the people who
work for billionaires. Those are the ones who aren't paying taxes.
The corporations like I won't say I might work for

(39:49):
one or aren't paying taxes. They are if we're not
one of those people, Like who gets to not pay taxes?

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Molly, you in danger, girl, you're in danger.

Speaker 4 (40:02):
Yes, everybody who's not mega wealthy and can like borrow
money and not pay taxes.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Right, you're in.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
You're in.

Speaker 4 (40:12):
You're in trouble because what everything that is everything, particularly
the Elon Musk. But Trump, Trump is just greedy. He
I think he ran so he can get out of
all the criminal charges and he did. And that's so,
I mean, that makes me sick. It makes me want
to vomit at that criminal. God, yes, yes, that makes

(40:34):
me eat. I'm not Oh you can beat a fucking criminal. Yeah,
And there was so many and the Merrit Garland.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Of it all.

Speaker 4 (40:43):
See this is why this is But this is why
I fuck I vote Democratic. But like Mary Garland had
three years, why did they wait? They could have They
needed to Jack Smiths that they had a case. He
would have indicted him and convicted him. He's already convicted
of thirty four felai mm hmm. It's like, what the
actual fuck?

Speaker 2 (41:04):
And the reason why we are so passionate about this
is because we are first on the hit list. We
were first on the hit list, like first, and they ran.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
The fucking election immigrants and trans people, yes, two hundred
and fifteen million dollars spent on network TV alone, not
including cable, and two hundred and fifteen million dollars on
anti transiss yes, when we're less than one percent of
the population.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
So less than one percent. And here's the thing. When
they said she's for they them, he's for you.

Speaker 4 (41:38):
And the Democrats had no answer. I mean, like I'm
I'm what the Democrats had no answer to that. And
the problem and so much if it's distressed. Okay, we're here.
So when Kamala launched and the walls choice, I think
was great. I think she seemed to have a working
class message at the beginning. Calling them weird was good.

(42:01):
We're not going back was great. A Democratic consultant who
was a Biden consultant came in and said, don't call
them weird. That's and you know, that's intimidating them and
pushing these voters away. But it was when it was resonating,
and don't say we're not turning back. They She sanitized
the fuck out of her campaign. She stopped talking about

(42:23):
price scourging with inflation. She started touring with Liz Chaney,
who who likes Liz Cheney right, started trying to target,
trying to target the few voters who were Trump voters
and then switched. How many of them were They like,
the way you went an election is turning out the base? Yeah,
the way you went the way Democrat Trump turned out

(42:45):
his base.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
Yeah, he turned out. I mean the white supremacist who
hadn't voted.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
For years got it.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
They got up and they got out and they voted.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
Yes, she needed to turn out the base, but she
needed to do it with a message that resonating with people,
that made them feel like she understood what working people
are going through. People can't afford a house, people can't
afford rent, Inflation is crazy, student loan debt. None of
that was addressed, and even if she said it, that

(43:12):
needed to be the message. That needed to be the
only thing she talked about. What Republicans are brilliant at
is getting all on the same page with the same messaging,
simplifying it, and seeing it over and over it over again.
When they lost to Obama in two thousand and eight,
they didn't say, oh, we need to change our messaging.
They said, we're going to obstruct Obama. He's going to

(43:34):
be a one term president. He's not getting anything done.
That's what Republicans do. Democrats say, oh, maybe we need
to get more go try to get more Republican voters
and be more conservative. And the problem ultimately with Democrats
and Republicans is that the majority of both parties, definitely
Republicans and Democrats are taking corporate money. Yeah, they're taking

(43:58):
money from lobbyists, billionaires, and corporations, and so they're not
working for us, They're working for those corporations. And we
will never never have elected officials working for us until
we get money out of politics. And I want to
talk to some experts. It's not going to come from
lawmakers changing that. I think I'm thinking and wanted. I'm
not a political strategy. I'm thinking we need ballot initiatives

(44:20):
and each state to get people a vote on it.
When the people vote voted on abortion in most states
they said yes to abortion.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
But then you know, in Florida, Florida, it is just.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
A lost cause you can vote because they voted for
people in Florida former felons to be able to vote again.
And then Desanta's girl. They don't care about the law
in Florida, and Trump doesn't care about the law. But
we need to get money out of politics. That is
the root of all the evil and it's really bad
and there's no political will to do it. And most

(44:52):
of our politicians are corrupt at every level.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
They just are.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
Although you can't Democrat or Republican, it's like they're all
taking money from the same corporations and so they can't
a higher minimum wage. The fact when Bernie Sanders dropped
out and he said to Joe Biden, all I'm asking
for is for you to fight for a fifteen dollars
minimum wage.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
And this is in twenty twenty. The minimumage should be
thirty dollars.

Speaker 4 (45:16):
Now, we've been trying to give fifteen dollars since twenty eleven,
twenty twelve. The minimum wage has not been raised nationally
since like twenty eleven, twenty twelve. That's all Bernie asked for.
Did Biden fight for that? They said, the Senate parliamentarian
so that we can't use it. Had you ever heard
of a Senate parliamentarian before twenty twenty one? No, that

(45:37):
when the Republicans were in office in the Senate parliamentarian
didn't approve their budget, they fired the Senate parliamentarian and
hired a new one that did approve it.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Oh, well, we can't say that. The Republicans are definitely
act more.

Speaker 4 (45:50):
They're corrupt and they're lawless often, but they know how
to wield power. They know how to wield power, and
they know how to fight. Yep, and their organized and
the messaging is consistent.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
They're lot. The messaging is lies.

Speaker 4 (46:06):
They're not populous, they're not for the people, They're for
the corporations and the plutocrats. They are anti democracy, you
know they're not. They're liars and they're corrupt, but they know,
they understand power, they understand messaging, and they're just so
well funded too. That's also the problem, the whole anti
trans thing, the way they've been able to dehumanize us

(46:29):
so effectively, yeah, effectively effectively over the past five years.
In twenty twenty, there were no sports bands in any states,
no gender firming care bands in any states in twenty twenty,
and now half the country and probably about soon the
whole country will have gender firming care bands for young people.
The propaganda, but they researched it, they focus grouped it,
and they funded it. The Lines Defending Freedom is a

(46:52):
big along with Heritage Foundation, are the biggest organizations that
have pushed this anti trans legislation, and Lines Defending Freedom
is doing this global. So the Alliance Defending Freedom will
take the actual legislation to the state senators.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
They paid off.

Speaker 4 (47:06):
Sometimes the senators will forget to wipe out, you know,
the name Alliance Defending Freedom, and they'll put the bill in.
All the bills say the same thing. So they're coming
from Alliance Defending Freedom, Heritage Foundation. They go to the
politicians they paid off. This is the bill you're going
to target trans people. I've given you this much money.
And that's why we see all these bills every single
year because the state politicians are getting paid and now

(47:30):
it's federal. Now it's federal, so it's coordinated and well
funded and.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Happening.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
So my question to you, Laverne, since since we're deep here,
are we going to be legal in the next year,
do you think that our resistance is going.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
To we really will be outlawed?

Speaker 2 (48:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (48:07):
Based on Project twenty feetw with five no, because what.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
Effectively? I mean literally, it's so funny. I made a
video reading.

Speaker 4 (48:15):
It's on page four girl, it's in the preface of
Project twenty twenty five. There's a set of words that
they wanted to eliminate from every document government, you know,
every piece of legislation, document, public policy on the federal level.
Some of those words were gender, gender equality, gender equity, transgender,
sexual orientation, gender identity, diversity, equity, inclusion. These are worst

(48:35):
they wanted to eliminate. That's on page four to five
of Project twenty twenty five in the preface.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
What are we seeing happening on websites.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
They've taken trans out of the stonewall stone wall, they've
taken it out of the CDC, they've taken they're removing
the t the trans from everything, right, all these words
that you can't use, diversity, equity, inclusion, So they're doing it.
So when you erase these words, and then I think

(49:04):
what we're seeing with passports and us and trans people
getting back passports with the wrong gender marker, it is
to eradicate us living at least being legally recognized as
a gender that we are. So when you say, are
we going to be you know, illegal in a year, yes,

(49:26):
that is the whole point.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
And we've been illegal before. We've been illegal.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
There were anti cross dressing laws on the books in
most major cities, definitely through the seventies, even after stonewalls
to the late seventies, even to the early nineties, there
were still anti cross dressing laws in the books. And
what those anti cross dressing laws did was allowed the
police to see a trans person, a gender knock conforming
person walking the street and say you're a criminal and

(49:54):
arrest them. Alexander Billings talks about having been arrested multiple
times she transitioned in nineteen seventy nine.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
All the girls from that era always.

Speaker 4 (50:02):
Arrested because they were trans, because they were walking down
the street as visibly trans people. That it's I believe
what they want to go back to, and then I
think we may need to think about fleeing, especially as
public figures. But yes, I mean that they are people
just calling us some man. What I love about being
older and like knowing who I am is somebody calling

(50:24):
me a man, don't do shit.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
I'm girl.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
But when I was younger it affected me, and then
some in the younger girls and younger trans people, it
affects them because there's not insecure and affirming someone's gender
is just so crucial and critical, and having people in
your life who see you and love you, and then
when you have the state saying that you aren't who
you say you are, it's devastating. I've met in the

(50:51):
past couple of months, I've had the pleasure of meeting
lots of people who tell me they have trans kids,
they have non binary kids, they have a nephew or
niece who's trans. A lot of people, and all of them,
I'm like, how's your how's your son doing? As your
daughter doing, how's your nephew doing? Hows your They're not
doing well. They're scared, children scared because of what's happening. Yeah,

(51:15):
and in every state that's passed anti trans laws, the
bullying of those trans kids hits like skyrocketed. Because if
when the state says it's that you're less than human,
that it's okay to like talk about you like you're
less than nothing, it emboldens the publicity the same thing.
And so violence, there's more violence, there's more bullying.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
And do you have a gun?

Speaker 3 (51:40):
I don't. I don't. I was gonna get my ex
to teach me how to shoot, and we just never
got around to it. I don't have a gun.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Lord, how do you plan to defend yourself? Because I
do believe that because we're I.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
Am a love not a fighter. I've never been a fighter.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
That's like it's the it's like not physical fighting anyway,
because I thought when I fought from my position.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
We're public figures. We're we're public figures, and we're also
have been made out to be public enemy number one,
and so being that because you know, as aggressive as
I am, because I'm very that and I let a
motherfucking bitch, No bitch, I'm gonna karate chop you with
a machete. I still am like I have. I've bought

(52:34):
a beautiful home.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
I've seen it on videos. It's done it.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
It is a beautiful home.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
Done it.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Windows everywhere, And I'm saying to myself, next week, i
gotta put bars and I gotta put stuff in front
of my windows, like I'm gonna have to do this
because I know, I personally feel that it's gonna get
down to this. And I just was at a meeting
before you got here, and when we the last line

(53:06):
that we were talking about, the last line of Tom
Campbell's statement was Madison, the week will die. H Do
you see how that this was cold? That was a
cold silence. Just now to think about everyone that falls

(53:28):
in the category of the week, like the week will die.
Like like I just said to you, Laverne, do you
have a gun?

Speaker 3 (53:36):
And and it and what is chilling about?

Speaker 4 (53:39):
Like we're it's like we're here, we're in that period historically,
and this history is important.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
That period in Germany and Berlin.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
When Hitler took took took power and he was voted in,
you know, and he used economic anxiety, and he lied
to the people then and normalized hatred of Jews normal
and so the normalization of hatred of trans people, normalization
of hatred of immigrants, and the anti semitism, I mean,
it's insane, so so much of what And the first

(54:14):
books that were burned were Magnus Hirschfel's his research and
Magnus Hirschfeld, for those who don't know, was a gay
Jewish Man in who lived in Berlin in the late
eighteen hundreds early nineteen nineteen hundreds and started an institute
for sexuality. And Berlin was this very queer place before

(54:36):
by mar Berlin was a very queer place where like
people went and lived openly as gay. He was doing
research on trans people and hormones in the early nineteen
hundreds and then one of the beautiful things he was
able to get trans people that get an ID card
that indicated them as trans so that they wouldn't be

(54:56):
arrested and that they were actually legally knowledged in Berlin
because of magnet Schurschfeld and his clinic and Hitler and
his you know, regimes saw this and thought this, we
need to get rid of this first and right away
and so that one of the most famous photos of
like book burnings is the research that Magnet Schurschfeld did

(55:19):
at his clinic, that that did research on trans people
and LGBTQ plus people in Berlin.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
And history is repeating that.

Speaker 4 (55:31):
Surely Bassy song just just a little obtusive, history repeating
I can't think right now, history is repeating itself and
we And even when I said to someone a friend
of mine, who after Elon Musk at the inauguration did
the Nazi salute, and I was just like, I think
he's the neo Nazi, and she was like, I don't think.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
I don't believe he is. And she was just saying.

Speaker 4 (55:52):
She was saying that too voke Nazism and Hitler is
a very serious thing to do, and I think it is.
But I think to do a Nazi salute at the
inauguration it's also a very serious thing.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
I also think, like, and there's not it's with Elon Musk.

Speaker 4 (56:09):
It's not just that when he took over Twitter, all
the neo Nazis who had been banned from Twitter restated
their accounts. He has elevated, retweeted neo Nazis and their propaganda.
His family were they They they left Canada, His grandfar
grandparents left Canada and moved US South Africa because they

(56:31):
liked the apartheid system. They were Nazi sympathizers. And like
it's grandparents, and he has not denounced them. That's his grandparents.
But there's like a lot of evidence to suggest that
at the very least he's a Nazi sympathizer. But I
think when you you go so far as to in
front of hundreds of millions of people do a Nazi salute,

(56:53):
it's not ambiguous.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
It's not.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
And that's the other weird strange thing about this time
is that there are so many people who will tell
us that we didn't see what we just stop, we
just saw.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
And they'll make it. They'll make it, and they won't
believe it. They'll make an excuse, Oh, well he didn't
mean that, Yes the fuck he did. That's what they've
been doing with Trump, this whole thing. Well what he meant. No,
he meant exactly what he said.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
And he's doing it, and he's doing it the only
reason and for the people who were like for the
people were like, well, his first term, he didn't do it.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
They weren't prepared the first time. He didn't think he
was gonna win.

Speaker 4 (57:29):
The first time, they didn't have the strategy in place
to dismantle the administrative state because there were still people
who were like, well, mister President, that's illegal. In his
first term. They made sure that wasn't gonna happen this time.
When part of the implementation of Project twenty twenty five
over the past two years was the personnel piece, making

(57:50):
sure that they got resumes of people who would be loyalist.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
They literally asked.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
Them in the interview, are you loyal to Trump? Did
you vote for Trump? Do you believe that twenty twenty
election was stolen? These are questions and you have to
answer properly if you want to work in this administration.
And if you don't answer them properly. The attorney the
US attorneys who would not go along with the Eric
Adams is this in the Eric Adams indictment. They they

(58:15):
said I'm resigning and there will and this attorney journal
is like, we accept your resignation. We're hiring people who
are going to do exactly what we want, whether it's
legal or not. The U s US attorneys who are
like this is illegal. You cannot compel us to drop
this indictment because you want something from Eric Adams that's illegal.
And but that's not that's not that's not a problem

(58:38):
anymore because we got Trump and we got people who
will do anything that Trump says.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
But Laverne, you say, are we talking? What the fuck
do we do? What do we do?

Speaker 4 (58:50):
Do we do? Like like there's the individual piece and
there's the collective piece that there's like so on a
person in a personal level, I think it's individuals. I
believe mental health first and foremost because if we for me,
if I'm watching the news too much, if I'm scrolling
too much, I'm gonna get in like what the fuck,

(59:15):
I'm gonna catastrophized, I'm gonna be panicked. I'd be like,
you know, I'm gonna freak the fuck out. Yeah, So
mental health first, because I if I can be of
service in this moment, I can't do it if I'm
freaked out.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
I have to be in my Brazilian zone.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
I have to be grounded and in the both and
and for me in this moment, a huge part of
my mental health is acknowledging as we are now, the catastrophe,
the mess the fucked upness of this moment, but also
that other things are true, that there is beauty and
joy in the world, that they are beautiful people in
the world, and so much getting out of During the pandemic,

(59:54):
I was very isolated. I tend to isolate and not
go out much. I know now that I need my community,
and I say communities, and it's the artistic community, the
trans community, the black community.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
It was incredible. Yesterday.

Speaker 4 (01:00:06):
I was at the Essence Black Women in Hollywood event,
one of my favorite event during award season. I haven't
been able to go the past few years because I
was doing the red carpet, and it was so beautiful
being in that that room is so powerful. The speeches
were amazing, always inspiring, and the love that I got
from so many of my colleagues who are black women.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
I needed that, all the people who said we love
clean slate.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
I needed that.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
I needed the joy, the possibility and as the and
the the thing that is ingrained in us as black people,
the leg of our legacy in this country that we
have faced catastropheople before. Yeah, We've always known that, you know,
We've always dealt with terrorism as black people, and so
just being in a room that's affirming of that history,

(01:00:54):
that legacy, that resilience is everything. That community, my trans community,
like my girls, like I love my Transmit and my
you know, but my I have a core group of girlfriends.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
That like.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
Everything.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
They hold you down everything.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
Yes, they hold me down, and I would not be
they They taught me how to love. It taught me
how to love and like what love feels like love
should herd.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
I'll be okay, But they taught me how to love
because it's like loving somebody, seeing them for their flaws,
for every piece of who they are, and being like,
you're beautiful because of those things. And I see you
and I love you, and I'm gonna be there and
support you and be happy for you. Everybody when you're
these girlfriends are talking about. These are girlfriends I've had

(01:01:42):
since before I was famous, who weren't weren't jealous, never
for a moment, who have celebrated, who have celebrated every
single accomplishment with open with real, like in a real way,
with love for real, for real. Everybody doesn't have that.

(01:02:06):
There's a lot of people who have jealous folks in
their lives. I just I'm so blessed that I have
real ones I have. I have girls who live for me,
protect me, celebrate me, and we celebrate each other and
hold each other down. And if never and this is
why I want to say any we never let a

(01:02:27):
man come between us, because there's.

Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
There's been overlapped.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Yeah mm hmmm.

Speaker 4 (01:02:32):
The community is small, the trade when we girl, when
I know I'm off on the tangent, when we first
love all of it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
You know why I love all of it because you
don't give the opportunity to get to occupy spaces that
allow you to do that. They want the Laverne. That's
they want the articular Laverne. They want the smart livern.
I want aunt they want I won't.

Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
I want my bitch, thank you come and cause And
the older I get it that hard is for her
for all.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
It's it's the older you get.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
It's you don't give a fuck.

Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
I don't give a fuck. And it's just I don't
have the energy not to just to be me, I
really honestly. So there's more of this coming out in
other spaces too, believe, try and believe. But when we
when we two thousand and eight ish, when I first
got close to me. It was before she transitioned. Actually,
I was like, she'll be on hormones in five years.
It was like under a year anyway. But when we

(01:03:28):
started comparing notes two thousand and eight, two thousand, it
was two thousand and nine, I was like, I'm taking
this hot.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
Man, this really hot guy. He's fine, you got a picture, girl?

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
I know him?

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
Yeah, And I was like, and that was the first time.

Speaker 4 (01:03:41):
I was like, how do you know?

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
She told me that she who else do you know?
And girl rolls it out. We pulled out the Mela
and I have have a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:03:53):
So I've had all my core girlfriends I've had crossover with,
well every single every single one of them, Mela the
most though.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Mila and I have the same type.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Well it's the man. It's because the man. It's just
what it is. So we we've talked politics.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):
But can I tell you one time, this is one
time when one guy he's actually reached out to Mila
again recently but not me.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
One minute, man too, like girl.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
It was always The cute thing is that I knew
it wasn't going to be a long session anyway, and
it wasn't just with me, because it was with her too.
He so he texted me and I was like, miela girl,
and I'm not gonna say his name he texted because
we both know he texted us both within the same
ten minutes. So I in my mind, I'm like, he's

(01:04:40):
texting all the bitches in his phone to see which
one is going to be available. And he lived he
lived close by me, so and I was by the
time I found out that he was texting me and her,
he was, he was out. But when there were there
were moments when there was overlap, when I had more
of a relationship with the guy, and so I kept

(01:05:00):
seeing him and he had just it was a one
off with one of my girls and I So there
were times and I continued, you know, but with him,
it was just like that was it was just one off.
That was no he was he was multiple times. But
when I found out that she knew him too, then
I was. I was done because he wasn't. It wasn't
giving because some of some guys it was they were
just there were faces, but there were like it was

(01:05:21):
a little bit we were kind of dating too.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
It was a little bit more there. He was a
girl one one man.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
We can't even get into that's that's all you need
some time. But but listen, sister, we don't talk politics.
We done got here. We got all the way to that.
We we started out with men.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
This this is what we do.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
When we get on the phone, we do this, when
we on the live, we do this. This is what
we do because this is how we this is how
we talking. But this is what they want, this is
what they've got to see. I love this side of you.
I love that you just were talking about men and
all stuff, because we were talking about it earlier and
I was telling you that I'm a girl that understands
that I'm trans and the men that like me identify

(01:06:03):
as heterosexual. And you know, I don't have a pussy,
and so I'm not gonna be policing my dude about
getting a pussy because me and a cunt not the
same thing. Me and a cunt, me I'm trans, that's
that's the cunt. We're not the same. So if he
over that long dick and her, that don't got nothing
to do with me, because he he will never have

(01:06:25):
the same relationship that he have with her that he
could have with me. Because see, he got to go
over there and give the facade.

Speaker 4 (01:06:32):
You know, I I don't discuss my genital status publicly
or my surgical status publicly, but I I had I
had a boy I used to feel that way. And
I had a boyfriend and we were in an open
relationship and it was partly because of the trans thing,
and he had never dated a transcrol before. And then
I got it was just it's exhausting for me to

(01:06:53):
like because then I was dating because I wish she
was a sex Our relationship wasn't really sexual, but we
was intimate, but whatnot sexual, So I was getting my
sexual needs met other places. It was it was a
lot to maintain a relationship and then get my sexual
needs met somewhere else and.

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
Have a career. So I the open relationship.

Speaker 4 (01:07:10):
And then the next boyfriend, I proposed the open relationship
and he didn't want me to feel like I was
less than in anyway, and we were monogamous, and I
realized that that's better for me. I mainly because of time,
and I think with the right person with the I
mean I don't know, I mean my like my last relationship.

(01:07:32):
There was never a moment with my last boyfriend where
it was it's a shame it ended. But like on
the like the physical chemistry thing, it was, it was right.
So and he never dated a trans girl before, and
I I was, I was everything.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
I get it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Yes, but was he did?

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
He identify as heterosexual girl straight? So he's so so
that made likes pussy.

Speaker 4 (01:08:02):
And I think, I think what I would say to that,
what I would say to that is that there are
some people who are my girlfriend, our lady J introduce
me to term genital fluid. There are some people who
are genital fluid, so meaning just as your genitals don't
define your womanhood, their attraction to genitals doesn't define their sexuality.

(01:08:27):
Right for some people like they for some people who
are genital fluid, they a straight man, for example, who's
genital fluid, understands that you're a beautiful woman.

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
Doesn't matter what your genitalia is.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Right, he sees a beautiful woman and he's attracted to you,
and it actually doesn't matter what you have, and he
can work with the penis or a vagina. There are
some men who are not genital fluid. They can only
work with the vagina. And there's some who are and
they still understand that you're a woman. And because they
and they understand and that they're a man and that
they're straight. Right, their genital fluidity does not like extend

(01:09:05):
to having sex with men because we know and we
know because they do. Men smell a certain way, man
have body here. Man, there's a lot of things that
men have that they don't want.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
What they want the girl, They want the girls.

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
So so I think people, some people are genital fluid,
and that's maybe an advanced concept for some people want
all this stuff to be simple.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
They want it to be like there's a man, you're
a man, you're a woman, you're gay, you're straight. None
of it's simple.

Speaker 4 (01:09:33):
Sexuality human sexuality is and simple and we know this
because people have been fucking everybody since the beginning of time.
So the label, even that label of like a straight
man wants a pussy not necessarily, just like every gay
man doesn't want to get fucked.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
Every gay man doesn't suck dick. I'm just being real crude, but.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
Like, but we love it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:52):
Every gay every gay man isn't even into dick, right,
Like we know gay guys.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
I know a lot of gay guys who aren't.

Speaker 4 (01:09:59):
They don't suck they don't get fucked, but they like
they're still gay and they still like man.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
I mean, one of my kids tell me, like, Mama,
you know sometimes I want to flip some time, but
I'm really not into sucking because it makes my jaws hurt.
So and I and then and then tell me like
I I like to you know, I don't really like
the bottom because I.

Speaker 4 (01:10:19):
So that the same straight people have the same range
of interest in sexuality. Some people are more vanilla or
more straightforward, and some people aren't.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Me that but for me, Laverne, you understand, Yes, a
man may want hands, I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:10:36):
I don't have no policy whatever works for you. I'm
in your situation, in your relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
I think that's fine. But I also think that what
I wonder, what I question, what I wonder is does
it make you feel? Yes, you don't.

Speaker 4 (01:10:52):
You don't have a vagina, and you understand a man's
need for a vagina. And that's very it's very evolved.
But like for me when my one of my exes
said to me, I don't want to have an open
relationship because I want you to know that I'm completely
satisfied with you and your everything I want and need,
And when he said that to me, I was just like, Wow,
that's like.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
I need to like I needed to hear that. And
I didn't even know I needed to hear it.

Speaker 4 (01:11:16):
I just accepted that a man might have other needs
outside of me, and now I understand that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
I am everything.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Maybe I need to hear that.

Speaker 4 (01:11:28):
Huh.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
It's a suggestion for me and I live in I
live in LA and New York. You live in the South.
It's a it's a I am emotion of men is.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Different, sister, because I was asked the question by a
really good friend, well, why don't you date men that
like are just completely transattracted? And I was like, well
that becomes sometimes those men that are transattracted, completely transattracted
have brand through all the Cat Black.

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
Do you see Cat Black's video when she distinguished between
closeted guys and DL guys.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
I haven't watched that video, but I love Cat Black.

Speaker 4 (01:12:07):
I shared it on my page and it was I'm
old and I've read a lot. It was one of
the most brilliant things I've I've heard. She distinguishes the
closetic guys. So the closetic guys like figuring out his
sexuality closeted as in maybe closeted gay or closeted trans attracted.
He's figuring out his sexuality and eventually he's going to

(01:12:27):
come to terms with who he is and what he likes.
If it's trans women, if it's other men, that's that's
the classic guy. But the DL guy, she said, DL
guys are diabolical. They know exactly what they want, and
they will pray on trans women and they will prey
on you and lie and do all kinds of maneuvering

(01:12:49):
and sneakery and tomfoolery. They are diabolical. So, I mean,
we've the term chaser. A lot of the men find
the derogatory, but DL.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
That bet there is.

Speaker 4 (01:13:01):
There's transattracted men and then there's the chaser. You know,
and I know it's the rictory or trans attracted men
and the DL guy. And so I think making that
distinct or the chaser, making that distinction is important because
the chaser, the DL guy, it's a diabolical predatory. It's
not even that they run through all the girls, that's

(01:13:22):
part of it, but it's the way they pray.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Well, you just talked about it the way you said
that the guy was texting everybody in the one minute.
That's girl, nobody want that. I'm gonna get my digs upboy,
there go about my business. I don't want you over here.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Lane.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Let me telling me. You live for me, bitch, I'm
gonna get my dig so excuse me. I'm gonna get
my dig son.

Speaker 3 (01:13:45):
But it's not even necessary.

Speaker 4 (01:13:47):
It's like the games they play are almost for them,
like especially when you're like because they're not when they're
not presenting anything and you're just like, sweet, I have
stuff to do.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
This is I need.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
I need this to be done in twenty minutes or
thirty minutes because I have I have to work.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
This is a piece of less.

Speaker 4 (01:14:02):
But so don't you don't need to give me all
the all that. Why are you lying and scheming and
doing all this stuff you That's the gag for me
that they feel the need to do all that. But
then when they're so disrespectful, like there's a there's a

(01:14:22):
line like I got to I got to a point
and I'm not even interested in sex right now, but
I got to a point when I'm I was it's
weird the past year. I think it's getting older. My
doctors think yestosterone.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (01:14:36):
I don't want to have sex right now though, because
I really can't be bothered with men. It's a geminile
men are just men are. I'm really over it. I
was really in love with the last one, and I
think I thought he was my forever guy. I was
in love Maddie, and it was when it was good,
it was incredible, like it was like some movie shit,

(01:14:57):
it was some movie romantic shiit like just it was incredible,
like passion, love, safety, making me breakfast in the morning,
bringing me coffee, rubbing my feet, like just just vacations
and just.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
Everything.

Speaker 4 (01:15:13):
It was everything everything I've wanted and it didn't work out.
And I'm just kind of like, well, anything else needs
to be at this level or higher and I've already
had this.

Speaker 3 (01:15:25):
But even with that, men straight minutes, straight minutes, girl
meiod man period. But I don't, I don't, I don't
know about it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
I don't date gay in again, again, let's say it.
We don't date.

Speaker 4 (01:15:42):
I don't take in And sometimes I wish they were
into me, and I was into them because they were,
probably because maybe it would be better.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):
But like straight, since men are you know what, even
they're just a mess.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
The way I'm hearing the tone in your voice. There's
a segment of my show it's called bannet bitch.

Speaker 4 (01:16:09):
You better segue because I hear the tone of your
voice because this might be something that chanetitch.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
So it's time for my favorite segment. It's called bandit bitch.
Some people out here are banning drag shows, LBGTQ, plus
books and even our very existence. But we're flipping the script. Now,
what's something that you would ban if you ran the world.
Here's how it works. We each get one minute to
make our case for what needs to go. Let me
kick it off to show you how it's done. All right.

(01:16:38):
My name is ts Madison, and I want to ban
the one minute. Man. I see how it works, all right.
So here's the thing. I really don't want to ban
the women and man, I really want to ban the
five minute man. Listen, I am the type of girl
when I'm on the road and I've done a lot
of work and stuff like that, I just want to

(01:16:58):
get fucked. I don't need a guy that's like super
long winded and trying to take about fifteen to twenty men.
I want the one many men. I want the mom
miny men to come over here, knock a hole in me, honey,
and let me get up and go do my business
because I ain't got time to be laid up with
no motherfucking man, because I got real money to make
before me being alive is illegal. I used to be

(01:17:22):
into how many seconds? I used to be really into
really large dicks at one point in my life. You know,
I'm not into that anymore, as long as you are
not super long winded.

Speaker 4 (01:17:33):
So wait when you say not into really long dicks
or like, what's the is there a cutoff?

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
No, it's not a cutoff. I'm into all the dicks,
but I just want to ban the ones that take
so long when I just want to get fucked. I
just want to have a good time and get up
and go do my business.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
That was fun.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
Okay, that was a.

Speaker 3 (01:17:52):
Fun band ad I'm a band of money from politics.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
Okay, well there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:17:56):
Okay, that's that's okay. I'm ready. My name is la
Verne Coxon. I would like to ban money from politics.

Speaker 4 (01:18:08):
Elections should be publicly funded. Campaign should not go on
for two and three years. Other countries do an election
campaign in three or four months. They should be publicly funded.
We need to get money out of politics so that
the politicians will work for the people and not the
corporations and private interest that they're working for now. And
in that vein, we need to ban Trump. We need

(01:18:30):
to ban Elon Musk. We need to ban Republicans. We
need to ban corrupt politicians. Some of them are Democrats too.
Mayor Eric Adams needs to be banned and arrested. We
need to ban all these people, all these motherfuckers passing
anti trans legislation, attacking trans people. Ban them because they've
been propagandized too. And we need to ban misinformation on

(01:18:52):
the fucking Internet. People are so stupid and don't know.
I don't like to denegrate people, but you're stupid. You
don't know how to I checked, you don't. You're getting
me this information. You aren't media savvy. You're just taking
things research. Learn something from this bitch. I saw tired yesterday.

(01:19:14):
We got a picture together.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
That was good. Leverne. I want to I want to
do more stuff. We have to do more stuff. I
want to do more stuff with you because you're important
to me.

Speaker 4 (01:19:29):
I need to increase my YouTube presence anyway I need like,
I need an editor, I need a format.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
And I need.

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
Just turn your ship on it, just turn it on.
I want you to understand what you did, I said.
I want you to understand you don't need all that.
A lot of times people think you need all the bells,
the whistles to this delights the camera dot. You know, bitch,
when you're mad about some ship that you want to
fucking say, you turn that motherfucker on. The numbers are
gonna come themselves because it's you doing it. It don't

(01:20:00):
have to everything, don't have to be polished all the time.
Polish looks great.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):
But I think so it's such a it's my with
my brand because I'm an actor and I work for
multinational corporations, and I do want to have a you know,
a big audience that I grow. I'm often very guarded
about how.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
I not today, no, no, and I want you to
know this. I want to say this to you, so
this burns here in your chest. If they turn all
that shit off, you ain't got nothing, but you give
the people you so that when all that other shit,
those multinational motherfuckers start d e on and start you know,

(01:20:43):
they start doing that shit. Your dependence on how you
eat comes specifically directly from fucking you. And don't you
ever let a motherfucker tell you that you can't make
a million dollars just by you makers. I did it
a couple of times, just in the name of the TS.
Bitch hurt that shit on, honey, and I fucking charged

(01:21:03):
by the minute, Patreon, I did it whatever it took.
I didn't never, I didn't ask anybody to give me
a million dollars. I made them give it to me.

Speaker 3 (01:21:12):
And that's there's a many reasons why you love you.
I was looking. I used to have the sticker on
the TS mats and checklist yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
Yourself, bitch, get up the job alright, we did it.
Outlaws is a production of the Outspoken Network from iHeart
Podcasts and Turtle Run Entertainment, co created by Tyler Rabinowitz
and Olivia Piece. I'm your host Tias Madison. We are

(01:21:43):
executive produced by Tyler Rabinowitz, Maya Howard and Tis Madison.
Our supervising producer is Jessica Crinchitch, and our producers are
Joey pat and Cormon. Our video editor is Tyler Rebennowitz.
And our sound editor is just Crimechich. Our associate producer
is Trent high Tower Special thanks to our producer's assistant,

(01:22:04):
Daniel Rabinowitz. Our theme song is composed by Wazi. Merrit
Our show art is by Pablo Martinina. Catch you next week, honey,

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