Episode 33: A BLM Activist Debates a Police Chief

A Black Lives Matter activist and a former police chief walk into a bar. Sounds like the beginning of a joke, right? Actually, it’s not that far off from what Gianno has in store for this podcast. The only difference is, rather than a bar, it’s a recording studio. That's right: On this episode, Gianno has on two very special guests — Zellie Imani and Clarence Cox III — to discuss race and policing in America today. This is a can't-miss conversation.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Up next, out WOUD with Joanno called part of the
gig which switch Actually Derek Chauvin has found guilty in
the death of George Floyd. A police officer shoots a
black teenager who was trying to stab another black teenager,
and supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement continue to
say America is systematically racist today and we discussed all
these topics and more with the Black Lives Matter activists

(00:23):
and the former police chief. This is Outlied with Gianna
called Welcome back to Outlive with Gianno called Brow I've
got an important and timely show for you guys this week.

(00:45):
My guests are Zelli Amani and Clarence Cox the third.
Zelli is a community organizer and Black Lives Matter activists
who founded the Black Lives Matter Liberation Collective, a group
of black students dedicated to transforming higher education. Clarence as
the former president of the National Organization of Black Law
Enforcement Executives. A veteran of law enforcement for more than
thirty years, he served as the chief of police for

(01:08):
Clayton County Public Schools in Georgia. On today's show, Zeali
and Clarence and I discussed race and policing in America.
Let's go. We know what just happened this past week
with verdict Derek Chauvin, and I wanted to get the
reaction from both of you guys. The jury found the
former Indianapolis police officer Derek show And guilty on all

(01:29):
counts and the death of George Floyd. What was your
reaction to that? Wow? For myself, UM, when I heard
the reaction, I lit out like a deep sigh and
I didn't even know that I was holding my breath,
you know, during the whole or deal. So I think

(01:51):
for me it was something that took me by surprise,
but also at the same time didn't give me the
same since assess actually not thought it would have. Well,
I kind of got the Zelie saying as far as
far as the satisfaction piece. But for me, I wasn't
surprised because I watched the prosecutor UM really dive down

(02:16):
and do a really good job meticulously to lay out
that evidence. And uh, you know, I remarked to one
of my friends, I said, you know, Ray Charles can
see this because it's so obvious and he's blind and dead.
So at these jurors don't get it. We've got a
major problem here in our country. But you know, as
Zelie just said, I don't know if I was as

(02:38):
satisfied as I wanted to be, because that's just the
beginning of a continuation of work to be done. I
think that, you know, while Keith Ellison and his group
did a great job on that, it's a broader problem.
And you know, if we can't identify these kinds of

(02:58):
offices earlier on, we got you know, a lot of
work to do and and and we identify his problems
and his his I guess demeanor in his his culture
earlier George Floyd wouldn't have been murdered and he'd still
be here and we'd be living happily ever after. Well,
thank you for that reaction, and I truly agree. I

(03:21):
do think that there's reformed this absolutely necessities, and you
have to continue to push the ball forward so we
can identify the bad officers. But understanding that we know
the overwhelming majority of officers are honorable people who serve
on a day to day basis basis to protect us all. Now,
there's been some conversation in the pressed um just areas
of the press who have said that they believe that

(03:43):
drewors made a particular decision because they were concerned about
threats of rioting and looting if they didn't make a
particular decision. I reject that personally, because juries have convicted mobsters, terrorists,
gang members, all kinds of folks who would literally target
their families for making a decision against them. Did you

(04:05):
all think that any of those threats of rioting had
any impact on the jury's deliberation and conviction? Personally, I didn't.
I think that during the Voordir process of selection, you
could listen to the response from some of those jurors
and you can tell that they were very intelligent people

(04:25):
or people that got it. But also you if you
look back to what I just said about the way
the prosecution laid it out, I think the most compelling
I guess uh testimony came from one the chief of
police and several um officers from that department. But then
the doctor who you know, laid out the exam piece

(04:50):
and showed that there was no other cause for the
death other than the affhixiation where this guy was on
his stomach with a knee on his neck. Um, you know,
it was no way in the world that they could
have come with another thing. And in this, in my mind,
is an applaud to a breakdown of the thin blue

(05:10):
wall that people refer too. Oftentimes when the police chief
of the department and several members of the department can
talk about what they had been trained and and and
there have been trained the same way, and they talked
about the failure of him to do his job. I mean,
you know, what else do you need? We agree, especially

(05:31):
with your sentiment where there's been historical incidences where jurors
are actually threatened with their lives and still make the
right decision UM. And we're also seen where and other
incidences in other towns where UM officers were indicted and
charged and there was still threats of rebellions or uprisings

(05:52):
in Ferguson or Baltimore, those jurors still chose to you know,
find them and the officer UM not guilty, or in
some cases where it comes to like a grand jury
that to choose not to indict the officers. So there's
been many, many different cases, right and when you look
at it, only seven officers since two thousand and five

(06:13):
have ever been convicted for a lot of these police
involved UM shootings. So it's a very very very very
very small number of officers who have been charged or
even indicted and convicted for incidences, and jurors always in
those cases tend to, you know, find the officers guilty
or innocent. Rather, Zelie, I want to ask you this

(06:35):
question because there's been a lot of conversation about the
Derek Shechlvin and George Floyd um Chauvin trial. Of course,
he killed George Floyd, but people have said that this
conviction isn't simply about Derek Shelvin. It's a conviction of
America as a racist system. And I know there's been
members of the Black Lives Matter movement who who have
echoed those sentiments. Do you believe that the system of

(06:58):
policing is a racist system? Yeah? Um, personally, I do
believe that the system of policing is racist system from
its origins, and you know, all throughout American history, UM,
it has been proven to be a racist institution. Now,
does this necessarily mean that every single person that's employed

(07:20):
by the police department is someone that is racist? I
don't necessarily believe that, right what, they are all working
in a racist institution. Right, and the same thing goes
for our public education system. I'm an educator. I know
the anti blackness that happens in our education system. Am
I going to say that every single teacher in the
education system is racist? No, but I know that they

(07:42):
are in the system and unfortunately are perpetuating the anti
blackness and the mask incarceration of our youth. So when
I say that something is you know, racist, it doesn't
mean that those individuals are out there, you know, saying
the in word or have a clue Klux Klan outfit
in their in their closet. But uh, we're saying that
they are perpetuating something that is um m harming Black

(08:04):
communities instead of helping them. Now, Chief Cox, you've been
in law enforcement for many, many years. You ran one
of the largest police organizations with the executive leaderships, and
we're talking police chiefs in Chicago, New York and many
other places. Do you believe that you've been a part
of a racist system of policing? Well, what I would say,
I would go even further than that, Uh, Giano, I

(08:27):
think the criminal justice system has systemic racism components throughout
and much like what Zelli saying that does not mean
that we're saying every police officer is a racist or
has racist practices. I think there's a culture that I
guess fosters that racism. UH. In dealing with UH communities

(08:54):
of code, I think that we police, and unfortunately, I've
seen some of my African American brothers police our own
communities differently than we should, um you know. And a
lot of that is not a police matter. A lot
of it's uh because of our socio economic situations. UM

(09:16):
you know. You find a lot of poverty in our neighborhoods,
you find a lot of lack of health care and
other things. And I think until this country gets really
serious about addressing those needs, we're gonna have this continuation. Unfortunately,
because when people find that they are somewhat a minority

(09:37):
in all aspects of life, they get you know, less
than UH favorable healthcare, less than favorable attention unless there's
you know, uh an effect on the other side of
the tracks, I like to call it. So, there's been
a drug problem in this country for many, many years,

(09:58):
and being that a good bit of my career was
in drug law enforcement. I saw in the early eighties
with the crack epidemic and we just fondled it in
and we called it the War on drugs. So now
that there is a opioid problem and prescription drugs are
being abused, it's now a health crisis, and it's being

(10:22):
police totally different. And when you have these types of
things over and over again, and brown and black people
are the I guess the guinea pigs of that, then
you have these type of issues. So I would say, yeah,
there has been systemic racism throughout. I mean, you look
at the minimum mandatory sentences that put a lot of
people in jail in the eighties with the crack epidemic,

(10:44):
and you know, you look at Barney made Off and
others who have destroyed you know, rich or affluent families
and then got less than than those type sentences. So,
I mean, we could go on and on about the
racism examples in the criminal justice system. Now, of course
there's been instances of racism, We've seen that, but you

(11:08):
believe it to be systematic in the way that just
about every police department is touched, you know, talking to you, uh,
President Cox, every just about every police department that has
been touched has has some areas that they need to
improve around race. It's not just one bad police department
or maybe three police officers in a particular department, which

(11:29):
we've seen. Um. You look at Ferguson, you look at
even Minneapolis, they've had a number of complaint stylesands of complaints,
and there's not been much of anything done into recently
when they after George Floyd. So you're thinking that this
is across the board I do, and with eighteen thousand
police ages is around the country. There is an immediate

(11:52):
need for some standards that would be applicable in every
every agency because you don't know what you're gonna get
from New York to South Georgia when it comes to
law enforcement, because they're all made up with different policies,
different standards, different cultures. Um. You know, for an example,
when you talk about racial profiling. You know, just this

(12:15):
past week, we had a young rapper in Atlanta who
accused the Atlanta Police Department of racial profiling him while
traveling through the harsh Phield Jackson Airport. UM. And it
turned out not to be the Atlanta Police Department but
the Clayton County Police Department. So what I'm saying to
you is as long as money is associated with policing,

(12:35):
it's gonna be those kinds of problems as well, because
a lot of agencies can't don't have the budgets of
a New York or l A p D. But they
make their money by doing other things, you know, drug interdiction,
traffic stops, um, those kinds of things. And you get
to think when a lot of these enforcement efforts are conducted,

(12:56):
they're actually in the black and brown communities, and they
get a different set of policing versus you know, on
the other side of the tracks, where you know, Mrs
Mrs Jones runs a light, we stop and tell her, Okay,
Mrs Jones, next time, you gotta be very careful. But
Bobo comes through the light on the other side of
the tracks. He's playing his music loud. He asked the

(13:19):
officer why did he stop him? And before you know it,
he's got a citation and he's off on his way.
That's so what I'm saying, Yes, there is a very
very different approach and and and and you know President
Obama tried to address it in the twenty one Century
Policing Document when he said that, you know, agencies should
have the hiring makeup that reflect the demographics of their community.

(13:44):
If you bring a guy into a poverty struck in
black community who has never seen an African American, he's
probably not gonna know how to deal with that person
and know our cultural habits, and therefore it's gonna be
a miscommunication at some point. Okay. So we've also seen
other elements of black law enforcement officers who might have

(14:06):
grown up in the same community, that's u Chicago as
an example, in Inglewood as an example, and they know
the cultural habits of the individuals and someone still dies
at the hand of the police. Does that make it
a racist incident? Does that make it? I mean, obviously
it depends on the what actually happened, But you still
kind of see the same approaches no matter if the

(14:28):
cop is black or white. So is it a matter
of um people talking to officers different showing a particular
set of respect for officers. As I was talking when
I was growing up, you gotta respect police officers, yes
or no, sir. What's what's the what's the distinction here?
That's no longer applicable with today's culture. And I think
again that's the culture of the agency and the what's

(14:51):
what's allowed. Okay, so you know, every chief, if he's honest,
will tell you he knows has a good idea. Who's
these problem kids, problem problem officers are. But at two
o'clock in the morning, when guys are standing on the corner,
Mrs Jones is blowing the chief's phone up or writing emails.
I want to say, I want this corner clear to

(15:12):
they're breaking in cars. The Chief's gonna send that message
back down stream and tell you know, his subordinates. I
want something done about it. He didn't at that point
care how it's done. He just wants it cleaned up,
and he's gonna send that message. And how they interpret
it could be something totally different. I'm not saying that

(15:33):
there are chiefs who are out here instructing these officers
to go do rogue things by no means. But I'm
saying that if you are worth your assault as an administrator,
you kind of know who's on your team and what's
going on. If you don't, you know, if you you
turn your head and have a blind eye to it,
that's your fault and you should be liable some kind

(15:55):
of civil cifically uh civilly um. If you don't do
something thing about it, because we should be asking our
community what do they expect from policing, and we should
be able to give it to him in the right way.
You don't walk in the walmart and they tell you
what you want to buy today. You go in there
and you buy what you want or what you need.

(16:16):
And that's how policing should be in my mind, in
our communities, because you can't police every community is saying,
but you can have policies that would be applicable to
protect the sanctity of the community. And I think that's
where we gotta go. Okay, I want to direct my
next question is Zelie and if you would Chief Cox
to to follow up after that. By now, I'm sure

(16:36):
you've both seen the video of the white police officer
at Columbus, Ohio who responded to the call about someone
armed with a knife. The officer arrived at the scene
and shot a black female teenager who was trying to
stab another black female teenager. Do you think the police
officer acted correctly and save the life or do you
think he should have tried something else to deescalate the situation? Yeah, right,

(16:58):
so I think that's um a great question. And it's
one that a lot of people are having right now,
this whole bit conflict about you know, police violence, if
that was an incident of police violence, and I personally
would say, like, yes, it was an incident of police violence.
And the way the reason why I say that is
I'm an educator, all right. I teach in the classroom. Unfortunately,

(17:20):
I have to break up fights sometimes sometimes those kids
have weapons. Sometimes those kids have you know, things that
can seriously injure someone. And if I say, for example,
if I lived in a town or or a state
that allowed teachers to carry guns, and if I pull
out a gun to like shoot down a student, everyone

(17:41):
would look at me like like I did something something wrong.
And teachers all across America are pretty much expected to
you know, protect their students even if a student has
um a weapon, and in many instances people teachers are
able to disarm those individuals. And I think that instead
of us thinking in a way that you know, the
officer was correct and what they did and that he

(18:04):
saved their life, at this same time, he took a life,
So it was a life really saved in any of
those equations, and we need to think about what what
ways if there was possible that that could have ended differently,
And think about how can we change the thinking of
police officers where instead of thinking that, you know, um,

(18:27):
firing a lethal weapon is the way to disfuse that
situation in that moment, what other ways could that have
been handled? All right? And I think when we start
having those conversations, we can start to say to ourselves, like,
maybe that situation could have been uh de escalated in
a much faster way, and both of those lives may

(18:48):
have been saved. Even if the young woman was stabbed,
she could have been stabbed and saved. But I think
that the shooting just us just ultimately took someone's life
that didn't need to be taken. So let me ask
you this question as a follow up, Zli. So, if
this was your daughter, your sister, and I'm referring to

(19:10):
the young lady who was not behind the knife, but
the one who almost became a victim to to the knife,
and if she would have successfully cut that young lady's
throat and killed her, and it was a police officer
on the scene who could have stopped the situation, would
you have rather your sister or your daughter had died
just to prevent a shooting in that situation, you know,

(19:34):
like thankfully, uh, you know, I would say that the
officer had decent aim, right, because he could have shot
the people next to him, right the girl next to her,
So we don't know what would have happened, right, So
how would I would have felt if I was in
that situation and he ended up shooting not just the
girl but also an innocent bystandard? What if the bullet

(19:56):
went through someplace else and shot somebody else? Um, So
we have to think about like the whole community there
that's literally been traumatized from that incident. And I think
about the girl that was even um saved. If we
interviewed her, like what she think to herself right now,
that she would what would she rather have? What she
had rather have that girl alive? I think that she

(20:19):
would rather have that girl alive, you know, and if
there was any other option, she would have hoped that
officer would have been able to take that one. Do
you think that was a racist cop killing someone in
that situation because people have been on on social media
saying that there was another instance of a racist police
officer murdering a young black person. Do you agree with

(20:40):
that assessment, I wouldn't necessarily say that they're racist, because
I don't know what's in their hearts and minds, right,
But when we look at so many different instances of
individuals who were armed and who were white, and who
were able to leave with their lives, I think that
sometimes when we think about racism, it's not necessarily about
if that cop ever call someone inward. It's about does

(21:02):
he value that humans that that other person's life. And
I don't think that he valued her life to the
point where he was willing to do anything, you know,
in order to save her life. Chief, did this officer
performed correctly in your view? So thank you? And I respectfully,
um uh, you know, entertain Zelie's comments, but I disagree. Um.

(21:28):
And then the thing about this is, as I viewed
this over and over and and I've listened to various commentaries,
and I've even gone to the Chicago website of Accountability
for Policing and they have a couple of different versions
of the video. I'm sorry I'm mixing too. I'm sorry
I've looked at so many shootings lately. I'm sorry I'm

(21:49):
confusing to Chicago with the Columbus but on the Columbus shooting,
I think that was a justified shooting, and that when
he also got out of the vehicle, he was already
giving commands and that's part of the use of force
continued and nobody was following the commands as this young
man was given. And in this situation, I've heard many
folks say, well, why didn't he deploy a taser? I

(22:12):
think America is expecting tasers to be the magic one
in a lot of these instances right now. Tases embody
cameras that are most wanted things from our citizens. Ury
and every agency, first of all, don't have tasers. Every
agency don't have bloody cameras, unfortunately. But this young lady
failed to follow any of the commands, and this officer

(22:34):
had nothing else in my mind, that he could have
done in that short length of time that he had.
This was a split second decision. And actually I claused
that officers response because had he not, um, you know,
protected the life of the young lady who was about
to be a victim, um, then he would have been

(22:54):
criticized for not doing his job and he would have
violated his oath of office. One the other piece to it,
is just like you know, ZELI just referred this guy
had some extreme marchmanship capabilities because I know in my
mind as I watched him go down range with those rounds,
I'm like, Wow, this guy is is pretty proficient with

(23:16):
his firearm. And that's a good professional officer in my mind,
because that's what we're taught in the academy. We're taught.
You know, so many people have said, you know, why
did he shooting in the chest? Why didn't the shooter
in their leg? What did he we as a police officer,
if you don't shoot in the chest during your qualifications
period in training, you're not allowed to care a firearm.

(23:37):
There's no other acceptable points of injury, so to speak,
with a firearm other than center mass we call it,
and that's right in the middle of the chest, because
that's uh most likely going to put you down. Um So,
in my mind and based on what I've seen so far,
this is a justified shooting. And I don't appreciate um

(24:00):
O our country putting all these in one bag. And
and and I think a lot of people because of
the tension that's going on with other shootings, and there's
some bad ones out there, and I'll be first to
tell you we cannot put this Columbus shooting in the
same bag as we can put this is not like
a little Kwan McDonald type shooting in Chicago. And I'm

(24:22):
still looking at the one in North Carolina. I'm not
really sure on that one. It's as well. Yeah, um,
but you know, it's unfortunate that we keep having these.
We're talking to Zeali Amani and Claren Scott's the third
of Black Lives Matter activists and a former police chief.
We've gotten much more with them after a quick way

(24:44):
in terms of putting all the shootings in one bag.
And we've seen time and time again and there's a
right officer involved, and there was a shooting w black person,
no matter that they're young, old man, woman, whatever, there
is deemed racist in my concern, especially being someone who
comes from a very dangerous area on the South side
of Chicago, and having just three years ago Memorial Day weekend,

(25:07):
my younger brother in the car with two of his friends,
and two men walked up shot the car twenty five times.
He lived, but his best friend died in his arms.
So considering the environment that we're in now, when it
comes to police again America. If every police involved shooting
with the African American is deemed racest, what if it
happened tomorrow where my little brother, that situation that happened

(25:29):
three years ago, and a white officer was around the corner,
heard the call, and he found out that the suspects
were black, and there's a shooting going on that he
can possibly save a life. But hell, i don't want
to be called a racist, so I'm not gonna get involved.
I'm gonna way to the bullets fly and they get away,
and then maybe I'll get around to get the ambulance.
When is it that we begin to have a really

(25:50):
honest dialogue about policing in America. We're doing that right now,
but we've seen it become so politicized. We've seen with
Black Lives Matter, Democrats have gotten in alved and they've
made it more about their appeal to the black community
versus real, real policy changes. We saw what Tim Scott
did last year when he was trying to pass the
police reform bill, and he offered Democrats an opportunity, a

(26:13):
manager's amendment, to put whatever they wanted in the build,
and they walked away from the table because they wanted
it to be about politics. They wanted to win elections
off of it. And it's been my saying black lives
don't matter the Democrats black boats do. So with that
consideration in mind, especially, use that lead because you're you're
a part of the movement, you're an organizer, you run
a chapter. What is it we can do to take

(26:36):
politics out of these discussions and talk more about policy? Yeah,
I don't think that you can um separate the two, right. Um.
I think what Clarence was saying earlier in the broadcast
was really really phenomenal because when we talk about the
issues of why we have policing or why our areas
are heavily policed in the first place. When you think

(26:56):
about the safest communities in your state, the safest community,
um that you know off the most safest communities don't
have more police officers, right, they usually have less police officers.
Was made a community safer is they have access to
more resources. They don't have more cops, they have more
they have better jobs, better healthcare, better better educational system,
have better quality food, better recreation services. Those are the

(27:20):
things that make communities safer and stronger. So when the
urban communities want to be safe, Why instead of giving
us jobs and better quality education, you give us more
police officers, right, And that that's the disconnect that's going
on right there when we say that in order to
fight crime, um, it's not by hiring more police officers.
You fight crime by fighting poverty, and we're not doing that,

(27:41):
We're not doing at all. And instead, by putting more
police officers, you're actually increasing the proximity to police officers
and uh the black community which is already strained, and
creating these in these interactions which can be volent or
whereas Clarence point out, can be predatory, where these officers
are now just on certain communities over for various um infractions.

(28:04):
And to really really really get into these conversations is
really important because we really need to understand the role
of policing in this country and really think about how
can we re reimagine public safety? How can we reimagine
public safety? So we hear the cries of defunding the police,
it's not about like getting rid of public safety, It's

(28:24):
about how can we reimagine public safety? Because domestic violence
is happening in our neighborhoods, child abuse, and sexual saul
is happening in our neighborhoods. You can hire seven hundred cops,
eight hundred cops. Domestic violence is still happening. People are
still not safe. So how then can we use the
little mental money that we do have to allocate it
in other areas that can actually make people safer. And

(28:46):
these are the conversations that we really do have to
start having, Like our police always effective doing every single job,
because police do so many different roles that they may
not be necessarily be you know, necessary in that if
I got into a minor car accident, do I really
need an armed police officer there at that moment just

(29:06):
to take a report? The officer could be doing something
much more you know serious. He could be out you know,
uh responding to a robbery or shooting, but right now
he's you know, taking notes or buying a report. Or
if I uh come into my house and it's already
got broken into, I don't really need an armed police

(29:27):
officer there. I just need someone to take the report,
and that doesn't necessarily have to be an officer. So
how can we reimagine the roles and the duties of
police officers and kind of like break it down and
see like where do we need them and where do
we not need them, and how do we minimize the
interactions with individuals? And that is why we need to
have these conversations about politics and policy. To Zeli's point,

(29:49):
I agree, Uh, And it's funny you you talk about that.
I just co chaired a task force called Reimagining Public
Safety along with my colleague, doctor sed Alexander, were both
past presidents of Noble National Organization Black Law Enforcement and
and and you're right, we've got the first defined public safety.

(30:10):
That's the first piece. Because public safety could also be
you know, lead in water, in in in Michigan, because
that's a safety issue. Public safety is a lot of things.
And I think what has happened is over a period
of time we've segued from just being the police to
being as you say, uh, you know, the counselors and

(30:33):
mental health coordinators and all of these things. And we
we we don't have the toolbox of the capacity to
band with to perform all these things. But you know,
in every community across this country, if you have an emergency,
whatever the emergency it is, you din nine one one.
And when you down nine one one you expect some response.

(30:53):
The majority of the time that's a law enforcement officer
police officer. So we've got the first in public safety.
What is public safety? And when we talk about defunding,
I don't agree with the defunding mechanism, but I do
agree that if we have agencies that cannot comply to

(31:13):
a certain set of standards, a certain than a certain
set of of goals and commissions, then they should not
be able to receive money from the federal government for funding.
They should not be able to participate in the asset
forfeit your program where if an officer stops a drug
dealing with a car full of money, they can no

(31:34):
longer see that money and sees that car and put
it into an operational budget. It should go into maybe
a federal budget or a state budget, because then that
gives them an incentive to do right. So if we're
going to get this thing right, and you talk Giano
about the politics and the policing, it's going to be
there as long as people continue to have some sort

(31:57):
of money at the at the bottom of everything, almost
as money. And I think as long as these folks
don't feel the pinch from the money and it's popular.
You know, everybody's out now with a sound bite saying,
you know, we need to do this, We need to
do that. There's more practitioners in law enforcement there and
then there is in any other profession. If you think

(32:18):
about it, if a doctor botches a surgery, he pays
the insurance, go plays golf until they pay it off,
and these back on the operating room tomorrow. If we
were to put those same type of standards in law enforcement,
you have to have a certain certification. If you screw up,
you get put on a list, and then you are
not able to go from one agency to another. We

(32:39):
can stop this, but this is a growing cancer across
the country because if I screw up at this agency
and it doesn't make the news, and sometimes even if
it makes the news, I'm able to go get a
job somewhere else until somebody figure it out. You know.
So I think we've we've got a long way to go.
But these kinds of conversations are the healthy conversations, because

(32:59):
we're sitting here of an adult conversation on how to
work this out. The people that UH really empower to
do these things are not doing them because nobody wants
to lose. It's not about winning and losing. It's about
what's best for the American public. These people in our
communities demand more, and until we can build trust and

(33:20):
legitimacy in our law enforcement agencies, we're not going to
get the respect that we used to get. You know,
I heard one of you guys said minute ago, when
you were growing up, everybody respected police and all that.
You know, my first call, I knocked on the door
and lady says, who is it? I said, police? Lady said,
police poets paid at least thought about. I will never

(33:40):
forget that because what she said it stays in my head.
Most officers don't make the money that they want to
make or should make for the job that they do,
and nobody respects us, and a lot of that is
our fault because of some things like what deare chevling
just did? You know? So it's it's not all. Everybody

(34:00):
has skin in this game, and I think until everybody
takes a role, in active role in trying to correct
this and not playing the blame game, pointing fingers, Oh,
it's no, it's you. It's as you as you, we're
not going to solve this. We can have conversations all
day long, was Zalie. I wanted to follow up on
something you mentioned in terms of defunding the police. Now

(34:21):
I've seen on your Twitter you've mentioned defunding the police
on a number of occasions is something you clearly believe in.
And to be honest, there's been a number of police
organizations that have been defunded across the country, to the
tune of almost nine hundred million dollars in police funding
in some of the most major jurisdictions across the country.

(34:42):
Not with that being the case, we saw a thirty
three percent increase in homicide last year UM for sixty
two or sixty six of the largest police jurisdiction saw
increases and at least one category of violent crime in
and we continue to see crime go up in a
number of these areas. Police officers are leaving their positions

(35:04):
at alarming rates for a number of police departments. Police
departments are being defunded. But who is it Who is
it hurting more? Is it? Is it hurting the officers
who decided to just give up the career. Maybe you
get a bad officer off the street, Maybe you get
a good officer off the street. But isn't that making
our our communities more vulnerable to violence and crime? Not necessarily,

(35:25):
I think that we shouldn't be always conflating about the
rise and violent crimes at the same time. Where we
see a rise in COVID nineteen cases, right, we see
a rise of unemployment in a lot of the same
urban areas. So a lot of these urban areas, um
some people haven't been to work since the pandemics has started.

(35:46):
So we see increase in a lot of these violent
crimes and a lot of these situations. So I wouldn't
necessarily say that the rise of violent crime has anything
to do with defunding the police departments or uh police
department apathy. I think is there zat exact opposite. Going
back to defunding the police, right, A lot of people

(36:08):
are scared when they hear the term defunding police again
because they think of it as what is going to happen,
Who's going to keep us safe? Where Again, where Clarence
was saying, it's not about defunding or getting rid of
public safety, is about reimagining public safety. And what we
see right now is happening where many of these towns
are defunding the police, they're actually funding other initiatives like

(36:30):
anti violence initiatives. We see that anti violence initiatives like
violence interrupters have UM significant um um improvements in Chicago
and the Bronx where they're able to use their violence
interrupters to reduce retaliations and UM do ceasefires and really
work with these at risk communities to prevent gun violence.

(36:52):
These are the types of things that we need to
be UM focusing on. One of the things UM I
talk all the time. To give an example, when we
knock on doors to talk to many community members and
ask them with some of the wrong things that the
city needs improvement. They always mentioned recreation, right, They always mentioned,
our kids have nothing to do out here in the streets.
There's no football programs, no more, there's no basketball programs,

(37:15):
there's no recreation centers. And I tell them that the
city's budget is two hundred million dollars and forty million
dollars goes to the police department salaries. That's almost a
quarter million, quarter percent, but only two million dollars goes
to the recreation department. Only two million dollars to fund
the activities for the use. And then when people hear

(37:36):
that they're saying, you know, like you know, maybe we
can like you know, shift or allocate some money from
the police department, which has the largest budget, and put
it someplace else into the kids. And again, we look
at the demographies of our police department. Majority of our
police do not even live in our communities. So you
think about that's forty million dollars that's not going into

(37:56):
our urban areas. That's forty million dollars going into the
suburbs and surrounding towns. So what happens if we actually
invest ten million dollars or five million dollars, even forty
million dollars into people who actually live here, who actually
need the money. And I think with those types of thinking,
it's how we are able to drastically improve our neighborhoods
when we think about money and who we are investing into. Now,

(38:19):
you mentioned the COVID nineteen, the rise in the COVID
nineteen cases, and I'm assuming that you're saying that because
of COVID nineteen, a lot of people were laid off
their jobs. Is that right? Most Definitely a lot of
people were laid off that wasn't able to to work.
And then we also see people um, you know, suffering
from depression and turn into drugs. So there's a lot

(38:39):
of reasons for um this COVID nineteen uh rise with
violence as well, and it's very sad to see. But
I think it's not impossible to be and it has
to be not through more policing, but how can we
invest in other alternatives that keep people safe. But if
we take into account the fact that when COVID nineteen happened,

(39:00):
the unemployment rate did go up, of course, but there
was a lot of government programs in which people were
in the bottom rung actually ended up making more money
from unemployment programs than they did in their normal day
to day jobs. So could that really be the reason
for the rise and violent crime or right after we
saw like when you think about the rioting and a
looting under behind George Floyd, that wasn't because of COVID nineteen,

(39:23):
people were rioting and looting. People in the Black Lives
Niner movement in Chicago specifically said that it was reparations
for black people going into black neighborhoods, uh, smashing those
stories and stealing things out of that. Is that really
the reason COVID nineteen is really the reason why a
lot of these crimes took place. I think that COVID
nineteen was a reason why a lot of crimes in general.

(39:44):
When I say COVID nineteen, I don't mean like COVID
nineteen the exact virus is the reason why. But the
conditions and the hardships that COVID nineteen um calls for
a lot of our communities can be contributed to a
lot of the rising crimes. Chief so most a major
cities right now. Gianno, as you said, spike in a

(40:05):
take of crime. But I think to kind of address
with Elie saying about the defunding and putting money into recreation,
I don't necessarily agree with the way you're talking about it,
but I do agree that there instead of defunding, I
would like to see reallocations some some kind of way
of some of the funding in that rather than trying

(40:26):
to put a civilian in the police officers capacity um
to put them in harm's way. You know, I'd like
to maybe see UH funding for some mental health counselors
that are sworn so they can carry a dual road.
You know, you have a police officer that's specifically trained
in mental health that could respond to some of these calls.

(40:48):
I speak with sheriffs from across the country on a
regular basis who share with me that the majority of
their population are mental health patients and doing a Reagan administration,
and Jean, I know you may remember that most of
those major health mental health facilities were shut down and
so now there's no real place to put them so

(41:10):
to speak, to seek any treatment, and now they're being
wide were housed in UH jails across this country. So
I don't want to see any money taken away, but
I'd like to see money maybe added or reallocate it. Okay, So,
as we talked about the recreation issues with the young folks, UM,
a lot of major cities have police athletic leagues where

(41:33):
young kids are able to participate in organize in amurial
sports and it's kind of led by that police agency.
I think that's a plus plus because a lot of kids,
the images that they have law enforcement is a negative
image and most of it comes from TV and the
other comes from the crazy things that they see UH

(41:56):
officers do. But you know, I know, when I ran
a school resource program, some of the greatest UH interactions
with the young people came came from my school resource
officers because they were in the schools having those interactions
with those young folks, and they were providing counseling, so
to speak, not formal counseling, but the relationships and the

(42:20):
dialogues that they created also created something that carried on.
I can remember several occasions where I had an interaction
with a young person and later on it meant something
to them. And to this day, I have young folks
to come up to me all the time, Hey, Chief,
I'm doing this, I'm doing it, you know, proud that
they've got a job, or proud that they got in

(42:41):
some college. You know that they didn't think they could
get into UM. So I think we could do both.
I think we can UM reallocate some funding and put
it in the right place. And and the only way
we're gonna do this again is we've got to have
a commission. And and the only mission or possibility of
a commission on law enforcement of public safety right now

(43:05):
that's being offered is this George Floord UH law that
they're trying to pass UH right now that nobody is
really moving on. And I think guys is that we
talk about removing funding most caught, uh, I mean most
agencies or so screwstrap right now. They don't have the

(43:26):
funding to form the duties that they are prescribed to
do right now. So until we you know, this country
has way too many police departments as it is, but
until we can get it all under one umbrella, so
to speak, and get the same standards across the board,
same type policies, those kind of things, I'll keep preaching that, Uh,

(43:47):
we're gonna have these issues. So consistency and uniformity is
what you're saying across the board nationally, is what's necessities
in order to improve policing in the country. Before we
move on, let's take a quick break back in the
second Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation received about ninety

(44:09):
million dollars in corporate donations last year from various corporations.
After the death of George Floyd, there's been a number
of chapters. Michael Brown Senior, for example, requested twenty million
dollars from the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, which
I don't believe they've received. There's been people like Samir Rights,
Tamer Rights's mother who, of course her son died I

(44:32):
think he was ten or eleven years old. He was
shot by a police officer. He had a toy gun
on a playground and they just pulled up and shot him.
There's been a number of other people who have criticized
people like to Tamika Maori um and others for using
black deaths to advance uh their profit structure, if you will.
And these are things that are people have stated in

(44:52):
reporting and on social media. There's been a lot of
folks who who said that the organization, the head of
the organization, has disenfranchised a lot of the local chapters.
You run a local chapter, have you seen any money
from the from the foundation, from the head of your
your group, right, Um, so I'm part of the Black
Lives Better on Patterson and UM, I would say maybe

(45:15):
a couple of months ago, UM, a group of Black
Lives Matter chapters called Black Lives Matter ten had released
a statement UM initially talking about some of these issues.
Once they found out that uh, like ninety million dollars
was nine I forgot how much money it was. It
was nine email a lot of months and it cost

(45:37):
a lot of problems because ever since the George Floyd,
even before George Floyd. Many chapters were trying to get
more transparency and accountability UM from Black Lives Matter Global,
right UM, And there's a lot of issues around that
and all a lot of the chapters really wanted with
some type of accountability and some type of support that

(45:57):
a lot of chapters we're doing fantastic sick work in
their communities, but they knew that they could do even
more if they had financial support from Black Lives Matter Global.
So a lot of people were very upset that UM
the Global Network was sitting on this much money and
wasn't distributing it to UM the chapters so that they

(46:17):
can support the communities. UM I personally stand in solidarity
with Tamar and mother's Rice and Mike Brown Senior and
all the other families that UM I feel slided by
UM black Lives Matter Global. I really do think that
Black Lives Matter Global Network needs to really address these concerns.
It really needs to address these grievances to really support

(46:40):
these families, families that they say they are supporting, Because
when you're saying you're fighting for Black Lives Matter, it's
just not about fighting for the people whom were killed
by police. But it's also about fighting for the Black
lives that are still here. Need to be able to
be supporting UM these black families that are still grieving.
You need to be also supporting to the best billy

(47:01):
Black communities nationwide and supporting your your local chapters. So
I hope that with all this criticism that the Black
Lives Matter Global will turn a new leaf and you know,
UM change some of their processes or support UM these
families that have been asking for monetary support. Now we
know some of the Black Lives Matter co founders have

(47:22):
described themselves as trained Marxists. As the Black Lives Matter
movement of trained, is it a Marxist movement? I want
to say that the Black Lives Matter movement is um
a Marxist movement at all. I would definitely say that
there's many people within Black Lives Matter UM the movement
who are potentially Marxist. And it's also people who are

(47:44):
you know, just just have no label for themselves. They
just want to see, you know, a change in America. UM.
I personally don't think that you know, Marxism is necessarily
like a negative word. It's just UM, a person who
had a strong critique of capitalism and really made a
lot of people understand what capitalism was, and that is

(48:05):
a hierarchy. It's it's like an upside down try and go.
There's people on the top, and many of us are
going to be on the bottom. And for many of us,
being on the bottom is mostly black and brown people.
So for a lot of Marxists it means that we
don't want to live in a society where, um, there's
only one option or two options, either stay in the
bottom or go to the top, and meaning that there's

(48:28):
not allow of room on the top in the first place,
and there'll never be a lot of room at the top.
Just like as you as you're a kid, you all
we all had our dreams of being in the NBA
or NFL, and our teachers had to tell us, like, yo,
there's not a chance you're gonna be in the NFL
and the NBA, no matter how good you are. There's
only a certain amount of people who are ever making
into the NBA. And that's unfortunately how it is when
it comes to being rich or wealthy. We all like

(48:50):
to think that we could all have the chance to
be billionaires and millionaires, but the actuality it's not and
we need to be able to change that system so
that everyone has access to the same resorts and has
the ability to live for fruitful life. So talking about Marxism,
the Black Lives Matter organization deleted to pay saying disrupting
the Western prescribed nuclear family structure is one of its

(49:10):
core principles. Now we're talking about Black Lives Matter here.
We know that about seventy percent of Black babies are
born out of wedlock, and the collapse of the black
family has this devested our community. So how is destroying
the black family is supposed to have black help black people.
I think it's mostly about when we talk about white supremacy,

(49:31):
it's the whole idea that the nuclear family is the
type of household that should be m adhere to and
anything else is like demonized, right, And that is something
that you know, I don't necessarily agree with, you know.
And when I say that is when we look back
in our own history, whether it's pre you know, child slavery,

(49:53):
we live in mostly extended families. It was nothing wrong
with having an extended family, but now for some reason
it's like frowned upon. And I think that we talk
about that is about um not always saying that having
a nuclear family is the goal, but being able to say, like,
all right, we welcome all types of families. You know,
as long as a strong family and a strong, healthy family,

(50:15):
then it shouldn't be to not we need to be
able to have strong families. If it is a new
great you know, if it's extended family, live with grandma live,
you know, great grandma. Great. That's not the stated purpose
of Marxism though, like that, I feel as though the
Black Lives Matter movement is uh, there's a difference between

(50:36):
the movement and the organization certainly, And we see what's
going on in the organization. You just mentioned it yourself.
How they're collecting all these millions of dollars, they're not
necessarily distributing to the trapters, which you all are saying
that you do really good work. It should be conversations
with law enforcement daily, talking about policy initiatives, et cetera.
We're not necessarily seeing that they're keeping the money seemingly

(50:58):
for themselves and maybe selectively poor it into different organizations.
So this is something that obviously needs to change with
you guys, And how could you be associated with global
organization like that, It's not necessarily caring about black lives,
if you will, because they're not pouring in the money
that they're they've collectively received from corporations to enhance the

(51:22):
lives of black people. Black folks aren't seeing that money.
I agree, like black people aren't seeing those those funds.
Chapters aren't seeing those funds. But it's going to be
up to myself and other leaders of various chapters to
hold on the leadership account to make sure that from
now on, individuals and communities need to be supported with

(51:42):
any money that is being distributed to global network. And
that's part of the fight. And unfortunately sometimes you have
to fight internally as well, and that doesn't necessarily have
to always be a negative thing. Okay, And my my
last question to you on this front, do you believe
the members of the Democratic Party and white liberals specifically
are trying to co opt your movement for their own

(52:03):
purposes political and otherwise. Oh, of course I definitely do
agree that. You know, um, there's always been instances where democratics,
you know, Democratic Party or Democratic leadership wants to co opt,
you know, the Black Lives Matter movement because it is
a popular movement and it has a base of black people.

(52:24):
So to align themselves they think that they can, you know,
allign themselves with black voters as well. Um, And I
frowned upon that, and I don't agree with that. I
don't think that we should align ourselves with the Democratic
Party at all. That we should be independent, that we
should you know, fight for what we fight for. If
the Democratic Party agrees with what we're doing, then great.

(52:46):
The Republican Party agrees with some of the things that
we're doing, great, whoever agrees with what we're doing and
work wants to work for our same goals, that's good.
But we shouldn't allign ourselves with the Democratic Party or
any party um to take advantage of us or just
use us for for votes and not give us things
that we need. So, in other words, black lives no
matter the Democrats, black votes do definitely all right. So

(53:11):
if I can get you just your final thoughts, will
race relations get worse and better over the next few years?
Chief Cox? What are your what are your thoughts? Well,
I'm prayerful and hopeful that they will get better in
the next uh several years. And it's all kind of
depending on the way President Biden leaves this country. Um,

(53:32):
we lost a lot of ground in my mind with
the last administration and a lot of the rhetoric that
came out of the White House. And I think that
now is an opportunity in the next four years, hopefully
and actually the next two years, because we know we
don't have no idea what's gonna happen in the midterm elections. Um,
that we're leading the right way and people learn to

(53:54):
love each other again. I mean, it's it's simple for me.
I think right now our biggest issue is we don't
communicate effectively and we're relying on guns to do our
communicating for us, and there's no real push to you know,
I guess do something about the guns on the streets.

(54:15):
So you know, we've got a long road ahead of us.
And I'm certainly for a gun ownership. I'm just for
a responsible gun own the ship. And right now I'm
seeing way too many homicides and way too many black
on black killings and communities across this country. And uh,
until we can kind of rope that up wrote that

(54:35):
in Um, I just I'm just prayerful every day and
every night that we learned to love each other again
and respect each other again, because there's a lot of
lack of respect. And over the past four years, I
think I've encountered some conversations with my brother's on of
another race that I probably wouldn't have done before because

(54:57):
I thinks sometimes people have become more emboldened and decided
that they would, you know, make challenges that they would
not have normally made. You know. So, yes, all right, Zelie, Yeah,
I definitely agree with um Clarence. UM. I do think
that we may have some rough spots for a while

(55:18):
before we get to like a broader tomorrow. UM. I
do have hope, especially with the youth. UM. They've been watching,
they've been learning, they've seen what was wrong, and they
have ideas of how to make things going forward. I'm
also hopeful because with this conversation with Clarence kind of
shows like maybe like five or ten years ago, UM,
a lot of police departments wouldn't have been open to

(55:40):
the idea of you know, allocating money tours, um um,
other initiatives to keep communities safe. But now it's like,
you know, there's other initiatives to keep community safe, then
it's a no brainer now for us to fund so
by continue to have these conversations and continue to have
these rough conversations you need if you disagree, is key

(56:02):
to moving forward. And I'm hopeful because all of us
want to be loved, all of us wants to be accepted,
all of us want to um live free. It's all
a matter of how do we come together and create
the system, create this world where that could be possible.
I want to thank Zeliamani and Clarence Cox the Third
again for a great interview. If you're enjoying the show,
please leave us a review. Will you rate us with
five stars on Apple Podcast. If you have any questions

(56:25):
for me, please email me at out lout the Ginglish
Street sixty and I'll try to answer them in our
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at Ginglige three sixt dot com slash out Loud. You
can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and parlor
at Giano called Blow. If you're interested in learning more
about my story, please pick up a copy of my
bestselling book title Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win
Back the American City Liberalism Failed. Special Thanks to our

(56:47):
producer John Cassio, We says You're Aaron Klingman and executive
producers Debbie Myers and speaker New Gingridge, all part of
the Ginglish to the sixty network