Episode 50: Eboni K. Williams: From Fox News to the Real Housewives

How does someone go from Fox News to the Real Housewives of New York City? For this podcast, Gianno's 50th and final episode, he finds out from his guest Eboni Williams, an attorney and journalist who went from being a Fox News host to starring in the Real Housewives of New York City. But Eboni has received criticism for allegedly making the show woke and tanking its ratings. Gianno asks her to respond. They also discuss some of the biggest headlines such as Afghanistan and immigration. Plus, they dig into Eboni's fascinating life story, from being raised by a single mother to achieving national fame.

If you’re interested in learning more about Gianno's story, you can pick up his bestselling book, Taken for Granted: How Conservatism Can Win Back the Americans That Liberalism Failed.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oubnatched how Wow what Giano called, which a former Fox
News host is accused of going woke, the debacle in Afghanistan,
is reigniting the tear threat against America, and just how
real is reality TV? We got a lot to cover
today in a wide ranging show. This is Outllowed with

(00:20):
Gianno called Well. I'm beyond excited to welcome Ebony Kay
Williams to Outlow with Giano called Broll. Thank you for
coming on vix Us. I love you so much. I'm
so so honored to have you on my last episode
and really importantly here this is your first conservative podcast

(00:41):
since you left Fox years ago. It is it is yeah, bro,
this is this is my honor. You know, I remember
when we were having uh, you know, preliminary conversations around
you and podcasting and what's the show and what's the
title and what's the cover art? So, uh, you know,
to be here today after such a successful see and um,
it's a manifestation of God's will And I'm honored and

(01:03):
congratulations truly absolutely, and thank you for mentioning that as
I was gonna mention you were very involved in the
process of was shooting you ideas thoughts, what do you
think of this picture? What do you think of this graphic?
And he was like, I like this, I don't like that.
So You've been a part of the process for many
years and my career especially so not just with the
podcast for those who are listening, but also with television

(01:25):
as well. And if I can tell this brief story
of how we met many many years ago, I saw
a clip of Ebony on Twitter and my first thought was, Wow,
this is a beautiful woman. Let me hear what she
has to say. And when I listened, I'm like, wow,
she's brilliant. Let me look for more of her YouTube's
and so on. And I listened, and I listened, and

(01:46):
I listened, and I followed you on Twitter, and then
all of a sudden, your name was coming up everywhere.
A woman who I've never heard of before that moment.
I'm hearing about you in South Carolina, at the rooftop
of the Bar and Chicago on the ninety eight floor
downtown Chicago, somebody's mentioned you. I'm hearing about you at
dinner during the New Year's Eve with Armstrong, Williams and others,

(02:09):
and I said, you know what, next time I co
host Armstrong series X and radio show I have to
have this woman on, which I did. And then after
we did our thing, which was more of a debate
than anything else about the executive order pushed through by
President Obama. And I know you were a big supporter
of his at that time, maybe still now, but anyway,

(02:31):
after we had that debate, you said, listen, next time
you're ainoied New York, let me know. We'll get together
and have a conversation, which we did, and you offered
me help just on the onset, which I've not really
necessarily had that experience unless I was super seeking it
where people will offer it, but no one has been
so freely in a position to help, who's offered to help,

(02:54):
and has been so consistent so throughout my entire career.
And I started in politics when I was fourteen, started
working for the federal government when I was sixteen, part time,
so on and so forth, been a lobbyist, and of
course was on television before I met you, CNN and
other networks. But I had so desperately that's really tried
to get into Fox News, and it's very tough you

(03:15):
and one conversation said hey, I'll introduce you to the
producers that Bina the next time you're in New York,
and I said, I'll be back next week Friday, which
it was a Friday we were meeting. You said I
won't be available. I said, well when are you available?
Eednie Kay Williams. You said Tuesday. I said I'll be
back here Tuesday, and I took the twenty dollar bus.
But yeah, you helped me. And you've been just by

(03:35):
my side looking at every one of my television appearances
for two months straight, giving me advice, critique, um, love
and support throughout. So I really honor you and I'm
really thankful to have you on my very last fifty episode.
So thank you so much. No, thank you for all
of all of that. G And I just want to
give context to some of your listeners as to how

(03:58):
that positioning came about. Right, So, a couple of things
that you left out of the storytelling. Number One, after
you said you know my name is in the ethos
and you're like, okay, this is, you know, probably an
indicator that I should have some kind of content content
engagement with this woman, you actually cold tweeted me UM

(04:20):
to invite me to be a guest on Armstrong william Show.
Of course I'd heard of Armstrong william Show, but I
never had any inclination to to be on. But I
thought there was something very audacious about a young man
who was guest hosting to have the audacity to ask
a then legal and political contributor and analyst f Fox

(04:40):
News that he had never met Um to join him
in that debate on an issue, that we on that
issue were on opposite sides of UM. And I really,
I really liked it. I respected it. I thought that
told me already something about you, so I I complied.
Then I liked very similar to me. And this will
lead me to why I even fell been inclined to

(05:01):
introduce you to anybody at Fox News. Um, was you
presented fact based argument? You know you know me to
know I'm not big when people into spaces of high
stakes where you're talking about policy, You're talking about life
or death decisions that are federal and state and local
government make as it relates to the well being of
everyday American citizens, and you bring a bunch of hyperbole,

(05:24):
a bunch of emotion, a bunch of hoopers. I'm not
into it. Um, I don't rock like that. And you
in that debate, g you presented facts, we didn't agree
on the application of the facts. That's okay, I want
to say that one more time because I think that's
being very lost in this whole ethos right now. Um,
as it relates to politics and debate and conversation. We

(05:47):
didn't agree on the application of the facts, but we
agreed on the facts and from there we could have
an intellectualized, practical, and productive conversation as it relates to
how this stuff can help people. Boom cool. So afterwards
you did follow up and you were like, yeah, let's
let me know when you can can link. Fine. I
hear that thirty times a day, every day. Fine. Um,

(06:11):
you followed up, and I'm telling these details you to
to let people know that it's not just some magic
fairy godmother or godfather that's going to come out the
universe and and and put you in position to succeed.
It doesn't work that way. What can happen you hear
this often, Uh, successes is where opportunity meets preparation. What's

(06:33):
important here is that you were prepared to be put
in position. So when we let's go to that very
first meeting, UM, I said let me see some of
your your real and first of all, you had a
real to show me. Let's start there. No, I'm serious
because a lot of people they reach out to you,
they reach out to me, they reach out to our colleagues,
and they want to be on prime time, Fox News, CNN,

(06:57):
what have you. And when you asked them for basic
examples of their work, what would you do if you
had an eight o'clock time five God came down himself
right now and say, you've got the eight o'clock time
slot all week? What does your content look like? You
can't answer that, then what do you expect to people?
So anyways, ask you for a real? You gave me
a real. I watched several clips and I said immediately,

(07:19):
just by watching that real Giano, a couple of things
stood out to me. Number one, you knew how to
present on camera, okay, like just aesthetically and that's important
in this business. One thing Roger Els taught me, uh,
this is optics. This is television. Okay, this is a
visual business. Um. Regardless of you know, things that they
came out that were of course very problematic, the basic

(07:42):
tentacles of television remain. This is a visual business and
your ability to present well aesthetically optically, it's paramount. You
knew how to look good on television. Great, don't have
to teach you that. Number two again, you make fact based,
coherent arguments too deep to agree you disagree, that's not
the point. You know how to sit in front of
someone else of opposite position and make an argument. Great.

(08:04):
The rest of the stuff can be tweaked. Cool. So
it was enough for me to say this is a
young man. Also, you talked about how desperately hard you'd
work to be on Fox News. It's not a secret. Um.
None of the networks in my opinion, Um, when I
say networks, I'm talking about, of course the cable news networks,
Fox News, MSNBC, seen, and I don't think any of
them have an adequate number of representation of diverse voices.

(08:28):
And when I say diversity voices, I'm not just talking
about skin color, although that's important. I'm also talking about
ideological diversity. I'm talking about regional diversity. Where in this country, Um,
you come from, where your perspective is informed. You know, Gee,
I'm a daughter from the South. That is not a perspective.
You see a lot on these national news outlets. Not
because people from the South are on there, we don't

(08:49):
necessarily talk about it. I think it's of the utmost important. Um.
So you were bringing a perspective, you know, born and
bred southside Chicago, coming from you know, a background that
I related to, extremely humble beginnings, entrepreneurship instilled upon you
by your grandfather. Like just stuff that just vibed with me.

(09:10):
You know, we we talked a lot about our mothers
and you know, just different things that made us have
a unique perspective on on themes like hard work, opportunity,
what success looks like, UM, resilience, uh, by way of
the American dream. So all of that was really really
dope to me. Many people ask you about your journey

(09:32):
with God, which I think is the really the center
place of your life. A lot of your decisions come
from that place, and I love for you to kind
of share with us, you know, what has that really
been like in your journey and television? Uh and law?
You know, you know, it's a it's an important question
because while people don't ask me about the role God

(09:55):
and my faith plays in my day to day and
in particularly my work, it is a thing that is
you know, because you you know, consume a lot of
my continent interviews. I intentionally try to deliver those realities
because I think it's important that people know. This is
not me. Really simply put Giano, UM, the work that

(10:15):
I do, the blessings that I've been able to receive,
the impact um to the extent I have been able
to make one, It's not my doing. I know that. UM.
I've been very clear from a very early age that
all is happening here is that I am a vessel.
That's it. I am a vessel of God's will. I

(10:35):
believe in spiritual gifts. I think every single person born
get some or some spiritual gifts. And I think what
is so incredibly rewarding g and and we've had these
conversations in depth for years, is when you are able
to identify with some level of precision what are your

(10:55):
spiritual gifts? Right, and then once you know what those
spiritual gifts are, then to me and there's actually um.
And I'm not a big Bible thumper, as you know,
but my my belief in my faith is of the
utmost important. But I do believe their scripture that talks
about you know, God gives you spiritual gifts. That's him
doing his his part. Your part is to then figure

(11:18):
out how to pour those spiritual gifts that he gives
you back into the world. Everything that I do and
a lot of people look at the moves I make
in the business, UM and they don't understand them. So,
whether it's going to Fox News in the first place,
whether it's making a decision after several years UM of
being successful on the network to then pivoting UH to

(11:39):
leave the network to uncertain future, then it was taking
a role at Revolt, which is a completely urban black
centric outlet owned of course by Sean pdd Combs, UH
hosting a real hip hop talk show UM with naturally
recognized internationally Grammy nominated actors rappers rather Joe Button and

(12:00):
Remy Man and Brandon Jenks people that didn't make sense
to people, No real house pis of New York like
what you're doing it? But what you knew the whole
time because we were discussing it. I was letting God
order my steps, right, This is God putting me in
front of particular audience so that my particular spiritual gifts

(12:23):
could be manifested, could be received from those who otherwise
might not be privy to those elements, those energies, those
particular things. So I just can't say enough again, I guess,
simply put, it's just I'm not making these decisions, Giano,
I'm not making these decisions. I'm not making these moves.

(12:46):
I'm not I'm not in front of the wheel. You know,
one of the greatest spiritual challenges I've had my entire
adult life has been the spiritual challenge and requirement really
of surrender. Because it's like, if I'm trying to drive
the bus and guys trying to drive the bus, we're
not gonna get to where we're going, right, So I
had to humble myself, humble my ego, humble my so

(13:10):
called intelligence to surrender. You know, you you mentioned something
to me here, and it reminds me of something that
Dr Bill wants and my pastor back home says a
lot we've been to this church. He says, it's not me,
is God in me. He's doing the work. So that
really I think adjusted my thinking as you said that.

(13:31):
But you also said a couple of other things that
stuck out to me, one being you're used to being
the person that drives. We'll just call it a private jet,
a fancy one. And when you look to make a decision,
it's like being on a football field. You're already looking
at the other end and we know how many well,
I don't know how many yards it is. You do.
You're the sports sports person, but you're looking way ahead.

(13:55):
And how hard is it for you to really let
go and just let God guide you? I think that
got to be a very difficult, very difficult decision for you,
because you're always in the front seat of your life,
your career, and all of your personal life, all of
those things. You're really flying the plane. So how do
you how do you adjust to that? It's been my

(14:16):
age and life experience, I guess most of than the
number of my age. It was hard for me three
years ago, it was hard for me five years ago.
It's not hard for me now because I just trust
him so implicit. How could I not, yes, ma'am, because
you're not. And that's not easy to say to your question.
So I don't want to oversimplify your question, because it's real.

(14:37):
This used to be a serious spiritual struggle for me
because I felt in my heart I wanted to be
obedient and follow God's calling. But I'm like, God, what
you're doing? You know, like that don't look like move Um.
But he's been so right, he's been so consistent, he's
been so forward thinking, and things I never thought about,

(15:00):
never thought about being a reality TV And all the
years you've ever known me up and until this point,
had you ever heard me talk about no reality never
not pitching one, not starting one, not going to be
on an existing one. That was not my plan. There
are other things I've wanted to do in the business. Um,
you know, write the book, do this, do that, maybe
host the game show, a judge show. Dad, you never

(15:21):
heard me talk about no reality show. So when that
opportunity so quote quote randomly popped up, I knew it
couldn't be anything but God, and so it was easy
to trust it. And then when in thirteen years they've
never had a black woman, not one, And of all
of the thousands, tens of thousands of incredible, beautiful, brilliant,

(15:45):
super wealthy black women they could have picked, they picked me.
Come on, that wasn't them picking me, That was God
picking mee am I to say no to God? So
that is such a fresh take and perspective. I think
a lot of people, especially those who have always viewed
their careers, simply put me in their hands. Not to

(16:07):
say that you didn't work hard, that you weren't exceptional
in so many different ways, not to say any of
those things aren't the case, but there's a lot of
exceptional people out there that don't know it, or there's
a lot of exceptional people out here who here who
think they can do everything just on their own without God.
And you're not one of those people. I know, you're
one of the most brilliant people that I know, and

(16:28):
I think you're one of the most brilliant people that
a lot of people know. So you know, it's not
a unique experience for me. But let's let's let's go
to just the foundation of you, your mom right before
getting into the big issues of the day of the
show and all of that which we're gonna get into.
And I thank you for spending the time you were
raised by a single mother who wasn't formally educated but

(16:49):
was still a small business owner. Can you tell us
what it was like growing up with Mama Gloria, who
who I love in the door personally, but she's she's
a tough person to grow up. She's very tough. She
believes in discipline, she believes in hard work. Um, that discipline,
some kind sometimes came at brute force. Um. You can

(17:12):
debate the merits of that in a modern society, but
I can tell you it was. It was what was
done at the time she you know, and one of
the things she did, you know, it's old school stuff,
but you know, she and my aunt's may they rest
in peace. They literally taught me how to pray like
that was a part of my upbringing, was getting on
my knees at night and saying the Lord's prayer. And

(17:34):
while as a kid, you don't really not necessarily know
the significance of that, or at least I didn't. Um,
it was once you start living life, once you started
going through some things, whether it's in school or at
summer jobs or work like that, that's when my mom's
tuteledgg really started showing up for me because she, you know,

(17:54):
maybe it was partly because I was raised with a
single mom. She was very clear on my heavenly father.
You know, that's a term I don't know that we
spend a lot of time on in a modern society.
But there's such thing as a heavenly father who will
do two things. Always provide and protect. Oh I like that.
I like that provide and protect yea. So it's one

(18:15):
of those things. And then there's just certain things, like
some things that come top of mind. If you take
one step, God will take too. I believe that with
my spirit Giano Caldwell. I see it evidence in every
aspect of my life. I'll give you this. But I
was desperately trying to get on any platform. Right, So
this is back eleven. I'm transitioning from the courtroom as
a practicing lawyer to trying to be a national international broadcaster.

(18:37):
Nobody would put me on a segment like it was
a struggle to get on hoof Post Live back when
that was a thing, And so Mom said, I would
call or be frustrated like I'm so talented, I'm so good,
I'm so smart. I got this lottery nobody's doing. She said,
have you taken your step? Because until you take your step,
God can't move. I said, all right. So then my
mandate g was every single day at least in outreach points.

(19:02):
So whether that's eve, cold emailing producers, cold calling networks,
sending out cover letters, resumes, clips, tapes that every day
for I'm talking about nine ten months, and it would
mostly go unanswered. But I felt like if I don't
do my steps, he can't move. I believe that now,
even now where God has blessed me to be you

(19:24):
know me, every day, I'm hitting up so and so,
so and so. I would be great for this role.
I would love this job. And I'm talking about some
high level power playing executives, because who am I to
sit back with arrogance and complacent energy and think that
things are old to me? I just I just don't
believe it. And you're right. All of that goes back
to my mother, who I saw bust her ask pardon

(19:45):
my French, to make sure that she and her child
had everything we needed and most everything we wanted. So,
you know, when she came uh to to get me
a twenty three years old, and we you know ran,
you know, started setting up household with just me and her.
This is a woman who worked three jobs at one time.
This is a woman who put herself the beauty school
while driving the bus for public schools at five o'clock

(20:06):
in the morning, and while running packages for ups at night,
you know. So that's the stock from which I come from.
So I don't know anything but hard work, and I
only know God to reward hard work. Amen, and you,
in some ways, while your mom was riding driving that
bus at five am, you were kind of getting up
and pulling your own sereal you were reading and you

(20:28):
were what six years old of the time. Yeah, I
was kind of being a hot mess too. I don't
know if you remember toaster strudles. Yeah, five strudals pastries
and then you get five packs of icing to go
with each strudal. Well, I remember him on TV. We
weren't wealthy enough to have them, so I can only
take your work. You're so silly. Well, I remember when

(20:52):
we were wealthy enough to get the actual toaster strudles, um,
not the off bringing, which we did that too, But
you're supposed to get one pack of busting for each strudle.
And I was such a little badass kid. This was
like the worst thing I would do. I would eat
all five icing packs at one time and then be
really sad the rest of the week when I would
have a dry as pastry. But that was the kind

(21:14):
of stuff you do when your mom leaves and five
of the morning, just you making yourself breakfast, like you said, reading,
trying to finish homework, and then getting on a school
bus as a latch key kid. Yeah. Absolutely, I got
Ebony K. Williams with me Real Housewives of New York
as well as a former host on Fox News Channel.
I'm sure y'all enjoying the conversation. Stick with us. We'll

(21:36):
be back right after a quick break. How was the
impact of, you know, I know, single mom. How was
the impact of being raised without a father, not knowing
who your dad was doing. You know, you're a young woman.
You were doing pageants and of course I'm sure a
lot of young men as you were growing up, we're

(21:58):
trying to get your attention. Your really a beautiful woman.
How was that experience of not necessarily having a dad
to talk to about the decisions that you were gonna make,
or having that figure in there to tell you outside
of your mom, how beautiful you are, how talented you are,
and all of those things that some people received from
their father figures as young women. Absolutely, and listen, my
mom did did an incredible job to to make sure

(22:20):
that she was providing and protecting as best she could.
But you know, even today, you know it's hard for
her to because she sulf deeply loves her daughter. She
can't father. It's an impossibility for a woman, any woman,
to father. And I think that's recent through therapy and
through prayer and through you know, my work at the
Hoffman Institute, Gianno that I've just recently when I said

(22:42):
recent time about the last two or three years, being
able to sit with the pain and the reality that
not having that male figure in my life to tell
me those things. You are beautiful, you are high valued,
you are special, You deserve the very best. Man this
puts himself in front of you must come to this level, um,

(23:04):
Otherwise he's not deserving. When you don't have a man
to tell you that and affirm that, you're operating on
un an imagination really so literally. You know, when I
showed up him, you know, my first marriage, I had
no idea what I was doing because I had not
seen it, you know. And that's not an excuse, that's
just the reality. UM. As I now prepare for my

(23:26):
second and final marriage, God Willie, UM, I think a
lot about that, g I think a lot about you
know what my expectations of my not only husband, but
I'm choosing the father of my child, you know, and
what does that look like? What elements need to be there?
And it is a journey, and it's something that I

(23:47):
have to talk to you about. My other men in
that are in my life. And I don't do a
whole lot of male platonic friends because you know, it's
just not the vibes. A lot of people we operate
with a agendas, um. But but but the ones, the
handful of men that I love and trust deeply like

(24:07):
that I have to defer to you. You know, what
does that look like? What does that energy feel like?
Because I didn't grow up with it, gen I didn't
and so you know, I have to mourn the loss
that I did not have that growing up. I am now,
like I said, almost thirty eight years old. I'm not
gonna get it back. I have to mourn the loss
of that and then move forward to say, now I

(24:29):
do know, as you saw on the episode of Rony
this week, I do know definitively who my father is.
I cannot tell you how much how much just gratitude
I have for that whatever the relationship become. But doesn't
become put opinion that I know whose I am, I
know the paternal identity from which I come from. For

(24:52):
those of you who have always grown up knowing that,
just just take a moment to say thank you God,
because that is an invaluable piece of your identity that,
whether you know it or not, informs the level of
validity in which you will walk through the world, the
level of legitimacy and which you walk through the world.
And frankly, those were things I did struggle with deeply,

(25:13):
um and probably to some degree still do if I'm
being vulnerable, because not knowing that aspect of who I
am and where I come from, it's a very hard
thing for a young girl. And I can only imagine
and I've seen the impact that it has had on
many young women, especially growing up in the inner city,
and it usually isn't isn't a great outcome and in

(25:34):
a number of cases, and you're extraordinarily blessed to have
grown up without your father. Obviously a mom who was
there and who worked our butt off to put you
through pageants, school, et cetera, and pushed for you to
be in these gifted classes because you knew that you
were you were gifted to. That's another part of the journey.
But as you mentioned last week, I believe it was
the episode of Ronie Play where it is affirmed that

(25:58):
there at least is an idea of one of three
men were to be your father. And of course you know,
I don't want to give away anything because this season
is still ongoing, but did it confirm who it is? Uh?
Through d n A, I was able to reach out
to the man that my geneticist predicted she was at
That woman is phenomenal. Um, she's absolutely right. Gee, if

(26:19):
you're cool with it, I would love to link her
contact information in your episode notes, UM for anybody listening
yeah to this and wants to help. Linda what's her name?
Linda is her name, and she is Linda Linda Doyle
and she is fantastic. Um. She she's just blessed again.
She's called I think that's the word we need to
use and normalize. Some people are called to do certain

(26:41):
things in this life. Some people are called to the pulpit,
some people are called to art. Linda is called to
connect family. So how has that that process been? You
spoken with him? Have you met him? Are y'all in
contact or what does that look like? We have my
father and I have spoken on the phone and listen,

(27:02):
it's without giving too much away, it has not been
an easy process. I can't imagine what it's like to
get a phone call after literally almost forty years and
say hello, I am your daughter. And by the way,
i'm your daughter, and I have a pretty significant public profile,

(27:23):
and I think all of that is a part of it.
So I believe Giano my father's processing. Um. I am
prayerful that that processing continues to the point where we
are able to start a really special friendship. You know again,
I don't have an expectation that this man can go
back in a time capsule and reraise me that that
for me has come and that has gone, and I

(27:43):
have to grieve the loss of that. I will never
be that little girl running into Daddy's arms. It's not
gonna happen. So I have to grieve the loss of
that and instead make a new story, a new expectation
of beauty that says that this this man, who, by
all accounts I hear, is a lovely man. He's been
a lovely father to my sister, a lovely grandfather to
my nieces and nephews. Um, and a lovely husband to

(28:05):
his wife. UM. So this is a man of excellence
and hope that I can have a relationship with him
in that capacity. Now you mentioned something I think uh
is of interest here to people who are listening. If
I and was in that situation, which obviously I've never been.
I don't have any children, but if I found out
my daughter was Ebney Kay Williams, and I learned more

(28:27):
about her, I would I would want to, Hey, I
want to meet you as soon as possible. I want
to talk to you every day. I want to whatever
part of your life you want to share with me.
I would like to spend time getting to know and
and and certainly being there for you because of all
this lost time, almost almost forty years. I'm not sure
if that's necessarily has happened. UM, and you know you

(28:50):
correct me if if if I'm wrong, because you said
you've spoken with him on the phone, et cetera, how
does that make you feel? Um? That that makes me sad?
Of course I would love to talk to this man
more equally, but again I don't know his process. I'll
tell you what I don't do, is I don't take
it personally, right. I know enough to know I've had
enough prayer and therapy to know this is not a
rejection of me personally. He doesn't know me to reject me, right,

(29:13):
So instead this is a reflection of his I don't know,
potential limitations, maybe um an example of where where of
his pacing and listen who. The thing I prayed for
the most is to know who is he? What does
he look like, what does he sound like? What is

(29:34):
his name? I have that, and if I don't get
more than that, I can honestly tell you I'm still
grateful and I'm very A question I've been getting to Gus, like,
do I regret going on the journey seeing you know
how it's it's not that scenario of we're talking every day,
we're hanging out every day. No, I don't regret it
for one second. It really was a painful thing to

(29:55):
to on every application. I want people to really think
about this in their own gratitude. Every application I've ever
filled out my entire life, from the s A T
S to the bar exam to my first marriage license
to every application for the department I've ever filled out,
to all of it passport when it says mother Glory

(30:16):
J Williams Boom got it father for thirty eight years
almost it's been in a in a For the first
time in my life, I can put a name there.
I can't tell you how powerful that is for me.
And I think for those who may take those moments
for granted, you realize the gravitas that it's really illustrated

(30:38):
in this moment by saying, listen, I didn't filled out
a number of applications. It says hey dad, mom, and
I couldn't put in my my dad's name. I think
that's I think that's something for a folks who may
have a two parent home and grew up in and
they're like, wow, I didn't even think about it to
that magnitude. So I mean, we certainly appreciate you sharing that,

(31:00):
and I I want to pick up this conversation. Um
after the break. We need to take a quick break,
but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Ebony about
her time at Fox in a transition to reality TV.
We'll be back in a second. Welcome Back to Alloy
with Giano Caldwell. I got Ebony Kay Williams on the

(31:20):
podcast and I couldn't be more excited to have someone
who's more like a sister to me than just about anyone.
The only thing that separates us is blood, and I've
not even checked our blood type shed. So maybe that's
even we gotta check that we may we may be
closer than I even think ebony. But I wanted to

(31:41):
ask you. You've described your time in Fox News as challenging,
and you said you went there to disrupt things, not
to be comfortable. Could you elaborate on that? Sure? You know,
when I go back to when I first started appearing
on Fox, so this was it was I never forget
my very first hit, as we call it in the
Business segment. It was on the O'Reilly Factor. It was live,

(32:04):
it was with Bill and a reverend actually, and it
was to to debate analyze the outcome of the George's
Immerman trial. And I had actually never even seen The
Orilly Factor before. But you know, I'm not under a rock.
I know the gravitas of O'Reilly show and the impact
on culture, so what you know, it was really legal analysis.

(32:26):
I was able to offer as a skilled trial attorney
and talk about the case and the and the cultural
impact which was really to me. Why I think O'Reilly
was such a huge star at the network and his
show was number one for twenty years, it was because
people like law, people like policy, but people want to
talk about how it impacts the culture American country. So anyways, Um,

(32:49):
after that hit, you know, it was met with mixed
review in terms of people agreed, people didn't agree. But
what almost universally I got, Giana was people had never
really seen anything like me before. Are meaning my age demographic,
meaning a black woman who was not a particularly partisan person.
I've always been loud, proud, registered political independent for over

(33:11):
eighteen years. Somebody who has a background in uh in
law and unafraid to use it. Somebody who has worked
in political spaces in Louisiana while I was coming up
through law school. Somebody from the South, from the American South,
who grew up with those roots and is proud of them.
So I just reflected and represented something very um unique
at the network, And I knew if I was gonna

(33:32):
sit in that space and not assimilate to everything else
that the network was used to, that by way of
existence would be disruptive. So that's what I mean when
I say I went there to disrupt. That is not
in any negative connotation, That is not in any um
malicious intent. It is simply to say by showing up
as something so altogether different then what was currently on

(33:55):
the network in an on air capacity, by nature, that
is disruptive. You know, it's so interesting to me as
you talk about Fox News. Everything what you're saying is true.
You were a star at the network. Susan Scott, the
CEO promoted you to co hosting the show, which going
from a contributor to to to co host, especially that quickly,

(34:16):
that quickly is the key word, shows how much that
they loved and appreciated your commentary. Even though it wasn't
a super conservative sland. You weren't going in as a Republican.
You weren't called Roll, you weren't Giano Caldwell any of
those things. And I'm not some super conservative, uh car
Roll of type figure, but I am a conservative, more

(34:37):
moderate in my in my point of view. But you
have legitimate Republican credentials, yes, absolutely absolutely, But those are
the things that you weren't And I think people appreciated
that because I remember seeing the social media they will say,
I don't agree with you, but I love the way
you stayed at your point. I didn't agree with you
on this or that, but I appreciate what you bring
to the network. You made me think about this differently.

(34:59):
I'm glad that my daughter can look at the TV
and see you on it. Like I've seen the emails,
I've seen the tweets. I've seen all of that over
over the years, and it really bothers me, Ebony that
I've seen in places like the Daily Mail, Uh, these
hit pieces that they've done on you with regards to
your time if Fox News and honestly have said, it's

(35:21):
just a a deluge of lies, just negative headlines, lies
that we're We've seen from the Daily Mail, Uh, people
saying that, hey, you know, she was too much of
a talent, you were you expected too much or mean
the staff and all this kind of trash. And I'm like,
wait a second. Ebony and I worked the Fox the

(35:42):
same time, and people knew that Ebony brought me in.
And as a matter of fact, when I had my
meetings with the executives to be brought in from a
contractual basis, it made me look good that I was
brought in by Ebony. Kay Williams, and they had nothing
but great things to say about you. We're switching gears
in terms of the Fox up. It's just really interesting
how people are reflecting on your time at Fox now

(36:04):
and bringing up a lot of false narratives, things that
are just completely and totally untrue. How does that make
you feel? You know, this is not my wheelhouse, meaning
I'm new to this reality TV space. I am used
to being a journalist. I'm used to being a host
of content. I'm used to being a lawyer. So in
those spaces I've always dealt in fact um. What is

(36:26):
new to me is to be in tabloids. Okay, so
now we've got to have a conversation about what is
legitimate press um, you know, which I'm very accustomed to,
have given hundreds of interviews throughout my career, maybe even thousands, um,
in a variety of places. What I'm not used to
is being the source of tabloid fodder and those like
the Daily Mail and all that ship that is a tabloid.

(36:49):
And at first I was really taken aback, like, oh
my god. And then you look and see like to
your who would say such a bow faced lie? And
then you talk to the journalists and they said, oh,
it's it's a sort an named source. Okay, come on now,
come on now, So you'd rather go with an unnamed
source than the source I provided to you, um, which
was actually reported by Variety on actual legitimate publication just

(37:10):
recently this week where my then supervisor, Mr. David Clark,
who was then vice president and executive producer of all
of weekend news at Fox News at the time. Uh,
you know, gave a literal glowing report at every turn.
You know, he volunteerily unsolicited sent me an email which
was published in a Variety, essentially saying I'm paraphrasing, Uh,

(37:32):
you were spectacular. Um, not only on air performance, everyone
in the d C bureau enjoyed thoroughly working with you,
to that point of how I am with the staff
and crew. You know, I I knew everybody by name,
from receptionists to cameraman to the gentleman. Normally it was
gentleman that that that miked us as we sit down

(37:53):
to do our hits and and commentary or anchor a newscast.
So just the height of of you know, slander, that's
all it was. G It was just slander. And again
you know Megan McCain, who you know that we both
worked with at Fox, and I worked with very closely,
especially during my time guest hosting Are Outnumbered, which was
you know, the talk show that she hosted, co hosted,

(38:16):
and Megan on the view as of like a month ago,
was like listen, I don't know what people are there
talking about with ebany being disruptive in any space in
terms of not disruptive being a problem. I have a
quote here and I have David Clark's as well, if
I may just read it for the audience, just great
platitudes here. I can I thank you enough. And this
is David Clark emailing you. I can. And I remember

(38:38):
this email because you sent it to me when you
got it. I remember it. I have it in my box.
I remember when you sent it to me, uh years ago.
He says, I cannot thank you enough for making the
trick to d C. These passed many weekends to co Anchor,
which is America's newsroom headquarters. From there, you did a
superb job and the DC staff has repeatedly expressed it

(38:59):
very positive feelings about your performance and their dealings with you.
Let's catch up when you're back in New York. And
then from Megan McCain on the View, of course, she
stated this live on air. She said, I actually know Ebony.
We used to work together Fox News. She's actually among
being the first black New York housewive. She was also

(39:21):
the first black woman to host a show in prime
time and news. The Ebony I know is an extremely intelligent,
hard working I mean, she was like a very good
sparring partner on my old show Out Number, and I
always enjoyed being with her on air. I'm happy she's
bringing diversity and shining a light towards a lot of
the unconscious bias and just bias and racism and unconscious

(39:43):
racism in particular on reality television. This is a woman
who could probably run for office if she wanted to.
So I'm happy to see her on reality television. I
hope she takes that platform and continues on because she
really is a really really always been an interesting voice.
Is nice to see a highly intellectual woman on reality television,

(40:04):
not that there hasn't been any, but well, I just
know it personally. So those are words from Megan McCain
um that she gave on the View. So again, somebody
else that knows you. I know you, And of course
I don't speak for everyone in Fox News. I only
speak for myself and what I heard and what I've
seen per my time there. Um, But no, I mean you,

(40:26):
you gotta say it exactly that way. So I don't
know what other people may say behind closed doors, but
I know what was been publicly stated by executives, talent,
and staff. So that that was just to me. When
I read that and I saw some of the things
that I was like, oh, yeah, this is a bunch
of bs. And I can't imagine anyone who actually worked
at Fox saying these things, um, that they said about you.

(40:49):
So that's that was just bizarre. And you're right, you're
now you're a bona fide celebrity. Is not being on
Fox News. On being on Fox News, you can be
famous and sir in areas, but now you're you're, in
my opinion, the most impactful housewives in the in the franchise,
people are talking about real issues now. Granted, people do

(41:10):
watch reality show to see people fall out of the
bushes and be drunk and throw glass. Boy, that's why
I wouldn't I wouldn't be watching it because it's not
my thing. But you've done and I don't agree with
everything you say, Let's be clear about that, as you
don't agree with everything that I say. But you've made
an impact that I think most people would never expect

(41:31):
to come out of a housewife franchise, and that I
think probably is the It's one of the biggest honors
that you can have. How does that that make you
you feel? And think about what you're doing as people
say that, oh, if you go into the housewives show,
it would take you down a peg and your brand
wouldn't be the same. You would be known as the
reality TV show a star and that's it. You would

(41:52):
never be able to get back in news. And none
of those things are true. No, thank God that those
things are true. But again, I never had those worries. Um.
Let's go back to when it was announced that I
was going to be the first black housewife on Real
Housewives in New York, which was October. Like you said,
we we had been in deep conversation, so it was
no surprise to you. But we have mutual colleagues, UM

(42:13):
in various news spaces that reached out to you with
concern right on my behalf. You know, what's your girl doing? Um,
she's messing up a great career. All these and I
had those same things. The reason I was never concerned
about it, worried or fearful. Again, Guide had ordered the step.
You know, there's that meme um ge that talks about
how people are supposed to understand your calling because God

(42:39):
didn't give it to you on a conference call, right,
So that is deep to me. That is saying that
you have people at this point in my career I
feel just trust me. It don't have to make sense
to you. It don't have to make sense to you.
It doesn't have to look logical to you. It doesn't
have to look like anything that makes sense to you.
Just trust that. At this point in the game, I
know what I'm doing because I my ear is to

(43:02):
the Kingdom, okay, and he is telling me, by direct
order and spiritual calling exactly how to move and manifest. Again,
let's go back to my time at Revolt on say
the culture people said that then, oh my god, what
are you doing? You're gonna be sitting up there with
a bunch of rappers and you're better than that, and
didn't what people need to know about me, because again,

(43:22):
this is all favorite play here. This is not me,
this is of God. I'm never going to reduce myself
to a position of a platform. What's going to happen
is an elevation of the platform period. Every time, every
time I could go on the Bad Girls Club, know
that the Bad Girls Club is going to look different

(43:45):
with me on there. That's just the vibes. So I
really hope at this point people that have watched RONI
that have never watched it before, which is a litany
of people. Have Some people turned it off absolutely because
they are not with anything of substance. They only one
to see something vapid and ridiculous that frankly make some
mockery of women. So if that's why you watch the show,

(44:05):
you are probably not enjoying it with me on it
because it's too much substance, it's too much vulnerability, it's
too much real life. I'm proud of that because that's
the future of this franchise. See, people have to also
understand this gena. We are living in a cultural climate
where things that were acceptable socially are just not acceptable anymore.
Now we can debate the merits of why and how

(44:27):
it is a moving too fast or but it is
what it is. It's here. Okay, you can't go into
the workplace anymore and slap a woman on the booty
and say good job, and Okay, that's not going down anymore. Similarly,
in in reality television, some of the antics, some of
the antics are not sustainable. So the platform has to evolve.

(44:47):
And and the fact that God has chosen me, called
me to do this work in this way in front
of millions of viewers each and every week, that I'm
able to connect to get people thinking about what it
is to go and search for their biological parent, what
it is to celebrate beauty of the bond between Black
and Jewish communities, what it is to celebrate the beauty
of black excellence, whether it be in Harlem or Alabama,
or Atlanta or d cit. I'm extremely blessed to an

(45:09):
honor to serving that space. Well, thank you for making
that statement, Emany, I appreciate it. Now we need to
take another break. When we come back, I want to
ask Ebany about some of the criticisms of her being
on the show and what it might have done. Uh,
we had to talk about it. Some of the criticism
you're being on the show. We want to get into

(45:31):
that right after a quick break. So we got emany
Kay Williams on with outlaw what Gianno called them excited
to have her on, and we're talking Real host Wives.
Now you're in a much different place. Reality show is
one in which people Reality TV is one in which
people usually see as a a place where uncouth people

(45:55):
really reside. That's whether whether folks that are willing to
do anything and everything to be famous. And clearly you're
you were a serious talent from the beginning. And just
to put things in perspective, last year you all tape
right after right during a period of COVID George Floyd,
there was a lot of conversation going on about race

(46:16):
and every week I can tell you from working at
Fox News it was something literally, I mean every network
you should say, uh was talking about it. Local television
was talking about it. So just putting things and that
perspective gives you an understanding how some of the conversations
went on the show. Now people have said that, uh,

(46:36):
you your your two woke, your your pre chee. They said,
you're asserting politics and the Real Housewives, and of course
people want to just watch white women get drunk and
throw things and talk about having sex and all these
other things. And they're saying that you've impacted the show
in a negative way by talking about blackness, about talking
about uh wokeness. And I don't, I don't necessarily want

(46:59):
to you is that term? I know people who have
been using him a lot lately. I asked Marca Romont
Hill on the podcast. I said, will do what what
is woke? He said he didn't know. And I can
agree because woke used to be something entirely different when
people talked about being wokey. But usually these highly intellectual
black people who would say, listen, don't treat black women
like that, stay woke, or I know about our history,

(47:21):
our true history, stay woke. It wasn't seen as the
very divisive uh statement as it is now, because I mean,
the term has changed drastically. If by woke what people
mean is operating with a level of race consciousness. Um,
I proudly do so. Um and and and woke even

(47:42):
didn't really applaud to me because to me, even the
genesis of the term woke would would reference some an awakening,
which means you are now conscious in a way that
you have not been before as somebody who's from six
years old on up was raised on the autobiography of
Malcolm X and the narratives of Frederick Douglas and all
the things, uh the Souls of Black Folks by two

(48:04):
Boys and Baldwin and all the things I've never been
sleep that might be for someone else that that had
an awakening of black consciousness. And it's never too late.
Do you know somebody can get woke today? I guess.
But I have never been out of touch with an
extreme academic people have to forget, you know, I have
a bachelor's degree in Black studies. I'm not new to this,

(48:28):
you know. So um, yes, I think that the term
people are looking for is somebody who is bringing an
unapologetic and an intense level of black consciousness to the show.
And that has been met with scrutiny. Yes, so it's
been mat with scrutiny. There they were saying, Uh, folks
have said critics have said that you're ruining the show
that by talking about it. Uh wokenus if you will,

(48:50):
talking about black excellence of a lot of folks have
said that, which is very interesting to me that they
would even publish something like that, but to do each
his own to say at especially in that light, like
oh man, you're talking about black people too much. You're
having a black Shabbat dinner, Like what is this? What
are you talking about Jewish people for? Why do we care?
Like we want to see fights and all of that.
That didn't make sense to me. It's certainly different from

(49:13):
what we've seen. I'm sure what people have seen on
the show before. So you know, I get that part,
But what is your response when people say that you're
you're ruining the show? Like, I just don't. I don't
get that piece because you've made some interesting comments which
I thought were valid. You talked about how it's the
producers that set up the show. They edit everything in

(49:33):
a particular way, so a week after week there can
be conversations that can either be shared in its full
detail or it can be briefe um, you made mention
mention of those things. You also talked about how one
of the most popular franchises, the Real Housewives of Atlanta,
their ratings are dropping in people are now you know,

(49:54):
COVID isn't over, but people are now getting the freedom
to go out of the house. So who's necessarily sitting
there watching television every night. We don't know because they've
been locked in the house for eighteen months. So you know,
what is there? So what is your response to that?
I think people, you know, need to just really relax. Um,
you know, and I think so and or say what

(50:15):
you really mean, right, which is not that Oh no,
she's ruining the show with all of this race talk
or black consciousness talk or black excellence talk. Say what
you mean, which is we're totally happy when the show
centers on white excellence. I'll give you an example. There
was a season where my cast mate Sonia Morrigan took
everybody to Philadelphia to see the Morgan Library, you know,

(50:39):
of her her marital family. Uh, the JP Morgan Chase
Bank family. Um, we're all too happy when Ramona pulls
up at the Learning Annex to to listen to people
talk about how to have it all. Those are white
centric events, Um, where no one's drunk, no one's falling
into bushes. Their academic and educational and nature and nobody

(51:00):
had a problem with those things. But I have one
Harlem night dinner around black excellence and Harlem Renaissance, and
it's a problem come on, Know what you are bored
with is that you are understandably conditioned to a narrative
that centers around whiteness. And when a black woman, a
first season housewife, has the audacity to move that central

(51:21):
point to one of blackness, you are angry, you are upset,
and you don't want to be part of it. And
that's what's happening. And I can accept that, but I
would prefer people be honest about it. G and also
miss me with the um oh, I only watched this
show for fun times, shenanigans and antics. That's not true either,
because some of the higher rated seasons of Ronie dealt

(51:43):
with divorce, dealt with bankruptcy, dealt with alcoholism, sobriety, arrest, felony,
arrest of assaults of police officers. Come on, now, you know,
so no these shows and that's just Rony, that's just
Real Housewives of New York. You go to Beverly Hughes,
you're talking about Sue side talk. You know, these are
some serious ass issues that are addressed on Real Housewives

(52:05):
for years. It's the audacity to make them centered around
blackness on a show that is a not all black cast.
Because Atlanta did the same thing. You know, we saw
Porsche Williams protesting UM with you know, several collective action
groups around Brianna Taylor and so forth. We saw Married
to Medicine going to the march on Washington and because

(52:26):
their physicians running COVID testing sites, which was beautiful to see.
You know. So certain audiences tolerate that very and celebrated
even in a way that this Real Housewives of New
York audience has not. Yeah, that's that's interesting. And I'm
also interested in why Romona Singer has responded in a
way that she has of with some of that come

(52:48):
and she made her around the Black Shabbat dinner and
some of these other scenes that I've seen. Has been
really interesting to watch how she responds and isolates her
self when the conversations occur. It's just kind of weird
to see that. But did that shock you to see
how she responded to you when you you have these
kind of conversations. I was still at that point getting

(53:11):
to know Ramana Gianna, So I don't know if it's
so much it shocked me. It's just, you know, I'm
a very pragmatic person. Um So at that point I
was still just obtaining really evidence of who she was
as a woman and as a person. So when you
know she made the comments about false equivalences between white
and black women in maternal mortality and just other you know,

(53:31):
ridiculous comments that she made, um the dismissal of the
Jewish oppression here in America, the dismissal certainly of of
the black experience in America, which can be both oppressive
and extremely liberating. And though it was I surprised to
know what I was was taking notes. You know, So
now listen, people tell you, not just Ramona, all people,

(53:53):
all people Gianna will tell you exactly who they are.
You have to just be quiet long enough to listen.
And then when they tell you who they are as
the great my angels said, says, believe them the first time.
So that's all I have to say about that. It
was so interested in knowing how you felt about that,
because that one would look problematic to me just seeing

(54:13):
a response, But that to me personally, I don't know
how everybody else thought about it, but it was just
odd at best. It was just it just look insane
to me. But anyway, moving on, before we let you go,
because We've been talking for a bit, and I know
you've got things to do before we let you go.
I wanted to get your take on some of these
headlines that are out there this week. Just get your

(54:35):
thoughts on it, if you would. As I'm sure you saw,
the Taliban took over Afghanistan right after President Biden with
true are remaining troops from there. The scenes that we saw,
oh my gosh, at the airport was shocking. Desperate Afghans
were literally trying to hang onto a U. S Military
plane as they flew away, and several thousand Americans remained

(54:58):
trapped in Afghanistan. Are your thoughts on a debacco there? Listen?
You know what I'm not gonna do is Monday morning, Quarterback.
I think the basics of what you said heartbreaking, devastating. UM,
it's just it's it's it's a nightmare. UM. My heart
and soul and prayers go out to the Afghan people,
particularly the women and girls there whose lives will never

(55:22):
be the same. We know that, UM, none of the
people's will, but the women and girls, it's it's going
to be extra horrible. UM. As it relates to the politics,
you know, I'll echo Kondo Leeza Rice, who knows more
about geopolitics than most we've had four administrations. UM, really
air to put it very modly, and uh contribute to

(55:44):
devastation to probably put it more accurately as it relates
to what we are currently seeing in Afghanistan. And that's
not to take anything away from the responsibility of Biden.
But I'm not about to sit up here neck like
Trump is not also responsible, Barack Obama is not also responsible,
and George, of you Bush, it's not also responsible. Um.
And and all we can do is really pray that
God forgives us in our nation for our contribution to

(56:07):
the depth station of those people. Yeah, and you're right there.
There was a number of presidents who had a hand
in this, going all the way back to George George W.
Bush for sure. And obviously now Biden is the president.
And Biden is the one who said on the world
stage when he was running for office that he would
be the adult in the room. He would talk to

(56:27):
our allies. And apparently it was reported that he's not
had any conversations with our allies and he and I
get it. You're right, you know, you know that he
has taken this, but he really is to blame for
this withdrawal, which is unnecessary and not what I would
expect from a US sitting president who has so much
experience in this place, being in foreign policy for a

(56:48):
decade after decade. So I definitely get your point there,
and I just wish that the people can work together.
We can have a Bipartistan conversation about this. We do
need to care of those interpreters who helped us. We
need to get our military equipment out if we can,
if we can, we need to really not surrender the

(57:09):
stage to the to domestic not domestic, but a terrorist
operation on as a Taliban. So I just found that
to be just embarrassing and horrific that President Biden has
allowed this to go on. It's really troubling for me,
especially as being someone who was supposed to be such
a serious leader on these issues. Yeah, I mean it's unconscionable.
Um book stops with Biden, no doubt. But the problem

(57:32):
is every American president said they were gonna do so
this was going to happen regardless, you know, we could
whoever did this, whoever pulled out completely, this was going
to be the result. I don't really, if I'm being
real with you, Giano see much better of an outcome
because so many of the on the ground Afghani people. Um,
it just wasn't. I don't think the numbers were there

(57:54):
to prevent this kind of outcome. I really don't. Um.
Could there have been more diplomatic conversation, sure, um, with
that made a difference, I'm not sure. UM. What I
do believe is this was flawed from the onset. You know,
I think when you decided you're going to go occupy
foreign terrain in this way, there has to be a
much deeper, more coherent, long term strategy, and there never

(58:15):
was one from the onset, and that's what we're seeing now.
Then the question is who's children are we gonna send
over there to die? You know who's going? So it's
a it's a terrible outcome all around. Yeah, no, no
question about it. And you know, I personally disagree that
it would be the same way no matter who the

(58:36):
president was. But that's another conversation for another day. Ebany,
I want to thank you so much for joining me
on No no, no, no, no no no. I just
want to question I'm curious around who and you know

(58:59):
What're you about to put a name on it? Whose
leadership would have made it look different? Do you think?
And what would that leadership intended? A president who was
willing to take the advice from the military officials on
the ground. The military was against many officials in the
military way against doing the withdrawal this way, meaning withdraw
all at once. Right first and foremost, you're the president

(59:19):
of the free world. You should talk to our allies.
Our allies, UM have people on the ground there as well.
You're the biggest, the most powerful country. So there should
have been an ongoing conversation, right, Okay, So let's let's
play out the hypothetical. So and so let's move let's
move the names, because I think that that flusters the conversation.
President A talks to the allies. The allies say, um,

(59:40):
maintain some true presidents otherwise it's gonna be a ship show.
That's that. That's that's what happened, right. How My question, though,
is what president is going to continue to come to
the American people and the American military families and say
your sons and daughters and non binar are identifying soldiers

(01:00:01):
are still over here in a country where this country
is not willing to stand up in the same way.
How how long does that go on? That's only that's
the only question. I Mean, one can argue, hey, we
should have left a long time ago, and I think
that's a reasonable argument to have. However, one could argue
we should have never gone, and that's true too. I mean,
we can we can talk about that, and we can

(01:00:21):
talk about how big of a failure was for George W.
Bush to have been pushing the war to begin with,
and how we were alied to That's true. But you
then elect other people, and I get it. You take
President be name out of it, and you just insert
any president if you're gonna have somebody who said, I'm
I'm a foreign policy wonk. I'm the guy who knows
how to get it done. I know all the world leaders,

(01:00:42):
and I talked to them regularly. And then you get
on the world stage and you refuse to draw listen
to the military officials who are on the ground. Who
understands that's what the previous president said, I would listen
to the military officials on the ground before making the
decision because he wanted to draw that on the troops too.
But you can't is the solution of forever occupancy, because

(01:01:05):
that's what Obamas. It isn't. It isn't. But you should
have ensured that you've got now keep people and you've
worked with our allies to do it safely. The military
should have been the last ones to go so the
Taliban didn't overtake the region as quickly as they did.
That's where it becomes problematic in my view and in
my eyes, and especially when our president knew about all

(01:01:27):
of this stuff Wednesday and Thursday, and then by that
Friday he went on vacation, Like what who does that?
Another conversation, he went to Kim Code on COVID, This
wasn't people and more people than Afghanistan? The hell are
you talking about? G And let's be let's be clear.

(01:01:47):
He's not the president, he's a U. S. Senator. And yes,
he should have stayed put. He shouldn't have left. He
shouldn't have left. But again, he shouldn't have left. But again,
but again, that's not one excuse or another. Conservatives attack
their crews, just like conservatives are attacking Joe Biden for
going on vacation. But again, and this is the problem
with our whole ship. Right, why can't conservatives attack tag Cruise?

(01:02:09):
And why can't Democrats attack Joe Biden? See see the hypocrisy? Yeah,
but Democrats aren't attacking Joe Biden and making every excuse
in the book. And conservatives were not attacking tech crew.
They actually were a number of conservatives attack And let's
be clear. I was one of the ones saying, what
were you thinking going on vacation in the middle of COVID.
It's a horrible look. We can talk about the outlier

(01:02:32):
partisans that have the balls and the political integrity to attack,
not even attacked, to hold their all party leadership accountable,
y'all outliers when it does happen, When are we as
a nation giannao going to put people, policy and integrity
over partisanship. And that's why I can't rock with these

(01:02:54):
political parties. I'm just telling you, maybe when you run
for office, we can do that. Are you running for office?
And any point I probably what that could look like,
I can't imagine because I'm not a partisan hack and
I just the politics is a money game. So how
does one get enough money to run successfully without playing
the political partisan game? And that's that's that's when we

(01:03:18):
figured that out as a nation, we might get on
track to avoid this type of global catastrophe as we
are seeing now in Afghanistan, and we might get on
tracks to avoid the domestic implications of a pandemic that
could have been handled in a much better way a
lot sooner. In with that, Emony kay Williams ends with
the soliloquy for your money, brock and providing us with

(01:03:46):
the platform that if you decide to run for office
one day, I'm sure this would be a part of
the conversation, and I think that if you did, we
we would be well served. So thank you so much
for joining me and all the love and respect for
you and what you're doing. Even though I don't agree
with everything you do or say, but you know you've

(01:04:07):
been a very consistent light in my life. Um you
tell me when you think I'm wrong, you give me
constructive criticism, and you do it in love. So for
people who thought that this was gonna be some big
debate or I was gonna got you interview for my
last one, it was gonna be some crazy explosive thing.
That's not what I'm gonna do with my sister ever,

(01:04:27):
never gonna do that with her, and you know I
have just the greatest respect for you and in appreciation,
so thank you for joining me as we in the season.
On the fiftieth episode, I love you so much to
us and wishing you all the light and all the
flowers that you're gonna get from here on out. I'm
so happy to see it. All the love and all

(01:04:47):
the light, bro, talk to you, so congrats. I want
to thank my sister Eddy Kay Williams again for a
great interview. If you enjoying the show, please leave us
a review and read us with five stars on that podcast.
To hear more of my episodes and get my weekly newsletter,
go to English Street sixty dot com s last Gianna.
You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and

(01:05:08):
parlor at Gianno Caldwell. And if you're interested in learning
more about my story, you please pick up a copy
of my bestselling book, which Ebany is actually in. It
is called Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win back
to the Americans that Luberalism failed. Especially thanks to our
producer Drew Steale, researcher Aaron Kleveman, and executive producers Debbie
Meyers and speaker, New Gingwich. All part of the Ginger

(01:05:30):
Street sixty network.