The Witness

He was best friends with Bob LaRosa. His ex-wife has described him as violent. And he’s been talking about bodies being buried in local water wells. It’s time for the Witness to speak.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Paper Ghosts is a production of I Heart Radio. While
going through the pile of documents Lisa White's mother had
given to me, I ran across a newspaper article from
I had somehow not paid much attention to over the years.
The headline attack cases begin to surface. A description of

(00:24):
the alleged perp who had tried to abduct and sexually
assault several young girls and a high school teacher stood
out early twenties, five ft six inches tall, stocky, dark
hair and mustache, dark rimmed glasses. I've compared it to
a number of suspects that have been tied to these
cases and can say the composite sketch accompanying the article

(00:48):
is akin to a photograph of Bob Lurosa. I showed
the sketch to several of the people I've interviewed who
knew Bob personally back in the day. Unanimously all of
them agreed the sketch resembled Bob. I've been sharing some
of my findings with Bob Rossa's youngest son, Mo, who

(01:11):
was just nine months old when his mother was murdered.
Most seems convinced his dad was not responsible. He protects
his father in one way, and yet in another he's
honest about possibilities and evidence. Growing up, Most says he
and his siblings had all left home by the age
of sixteen, mostly because, in most view, they never saw

(01:33):
their father. Bob was never around through the years. He
just worked and you didn't see a lot of him.
I get home from school and he's sleeping. I go
to bed, he gets up and he goes to work.
I asked more what his dad thought about the Vernon
Police Department reopening his mom's case in two thousand two,

(01:55):
when forensic scientists doctor Henry Lee became involved and went
into the row his old apartment in Vernon to test
for residual blood. How did he feel about that whole
thing in where they cut out the piece of floor
and everything. We we actually spoke about that, and he
just he was very calm about it. He said, well,
you know, they're not gonna find anything. He said, I

(02:16):
didn't do anything wrong to hurt your mother. There was
such a miniscule amount of forensics found during the search,
no human blood or DNA. There just wasn't enough to
bring Bob to trial. He was upset that my sister
would would do what he called a witch on on him.
My sister was three years old, and you know she

(02:39):
she claims she sees things vividly from the day they
were there, even my new details. She's she's got it
all down. Um, three year olds, aren't You couldn't do it.
I recently obtained a transcript dated September just after Stacy

(03:01):
LaRosa started talking about her mother to a psychologist. Stacy
talks about Daddy hitting mommy in the stomach, Mommy being asleep,
and Daddy putting Mommy in the bedroom. Then quote, Mommy
went shopping to the store by herself in the car.
Stacy has asked, did Daddy help Mommy into the car?

(03:24):
She answered yes, and me and Maurice and my older
brother were alone all day. A grand jury ultimately voted
not to indict Bob LaRosa. All of the evidence was circumstantial,
but throughout the years, Vernon police detectives kept on Bob

(03:48):
right up until the day he died. After defending his father,
talking to me about how he and his dad went
fishing together and how great a dad Bob was to him,
I asked more if he could ever accept the fact,
if it was ever proven that his dad was a
very bad man, more hesitated. He thought about how to

(04:09):
respond than this. I heard about it every year on
the news, and I was like, you know, who really cares.
They don't know who did it, they'll never find who
did it. Let's just be quiet about it and it'll
go away. And then later on in life I decided,
you know, that's kind of the wrong attitude. I'm the

(04:35):
youngest person involved in it, and if I don't step
up and try to help figure it out and I die,
that's it. It goes away because nobody below me is
gonna care. Previously on paper Ghosts and of a year

(05:00):
old girl is riding her bicycle. She sees a car
pass her. She goes a bit further. All of a sudden,
a guy jumps out of the woods and drags her
off the bicycle and is trying to take her into
the woods. For me, it felt like years getting the answer,
just waiting, and it was right before my birthday, and
I just kept saying to myself, all I want for

(05:22):
my birthday is this to be found as Lisa. That's
all I wanted. Then they would say, but it's right
here in this report that you said that, and they're like,
they don't know if he was lying or really can't remember.
He said, it was hard to tell you that he
might just be a really good liar. My name is

(05:43):
and William Phelps. This is paper ghosts and talking to
dozens of people connected to these cases. I have only
one person left to interview, the witness. I'm told police
spoke to him about the cases as recently as June

(06:05):
two thousand nineteen. I'm also told that in the state
he moved to after leaving this area, there are two
cases of missing girls nearby that he has been questioned about.
With regards to those cases, one major crimes detective told me,
I don't know about you, Phelps, but dead and missing girls.
Whenever I have moved, they don't follow me. I decided

(06:30):
the best way to introduce myself and get him talking
was in the form of a letter to give him
the opportunity to ponder what I want. I ended it
with a request for the witness to call me, adding
if I did not hear from him, I would call
in a few weeks. Oh, hi, been, that's me. My

(06:56):
name's Emi William Phelps. Call me Matthew. I sent you
a letter. A couple of weeks ago. Did you get it? Okay?
Brning canetic and yeah, what do you want? Well, I
was just calling to chat a little bit about you
know what I'm doing. I mean, from what I hear you,
you knew these guys pretty well. You didn't know Bob

(07:17):
and Nathan. No. I knew Bobby he was my brother
in law. And Nathan I knew because he would related
to Bobby, But I didn't know him that good. That
was so interesting to me. I didn't know them that good. Really. Immediately,
the witness comes across hostile and impatient. The fact that

(07:40):
he tells me right off the bat that he doesn't
know Bob or Nathan LaRosa is actually astonishing because this
is factionally untrue. But look, I go along with it.
What I'm doing is a podcast, So I just wanted
to make sure you had your opportunity to speak. Oh yeah, yeah,

(08:01):
but I'm done talking. Like I told the cops when
I gave my deposition here two freaking days I had
there was four cops come up, investigators. It was actually
just three cops. And when he refers to deposition, he
means interview. They kept saying, well, did you kill I
can look for the last fucking time. I didn't kill anybody,

(08:25):
I didn't hurt anybody. I don't know what's going on
with all his ship. I wasn't friends with Robert LaRosa
or Nathan LaRosa or any of them. Is there anything
you can tell me about you know those guys that time?
I mean everything I'm looking at is pointing like to
Bob Larrossa as a guy who probably killed his wife

(08:46):
but maybe also involved in some other disappearances in the area.
I knew him as a brother in law. We hung
out when we had functions at the house. Other than that,
I didn't want nothing to do with him when I
got mad when we moved. When I bought my house,
I separated myself from all of old people, and my

(09:09):
wife kept in contact with Bobby. Why I don't know
your ex your ex wife and that ex wife would
be and Countier, who you've heard in previous episodes. She's
one of Susan Rosa's sisters and alleged the witness was
violent during their marriage. She claimed eadily for days at

(09:31):
a time, with no explanation of where he went. The witness,
in turn, claims the same about Anne. I was in
the hospital a lot of when a lot of this
ship was going on, and then I was in a wheelchair. No,
all she has to do is think back on what
was going on and where the hell she was all

(09:51):
those nights that she took off and I was babyshitting,
I was watching our kids. Oh, I'm going over here
to see a friend of mine. All that hospitals stuff,
the wheelchair and going out. There is zero corroborating evidence
I could find to support any of it. In fact,
all I have are people telling me the exact opposite.

(10:13):
You know, they ought to check my ex wife. She
never got along with her sister whatsoever, And I mean
she hated her to a fucking passion. And to turn
around and say I did this. No, it seemed to

(10:37):
me as we got into it that the witness wanted
to push any attention away from his connection to the
le Ross. It's important to say that the witness has
never been charged with the crime connected to any of
these cases. Yes, he's injected himself into the narrative. Yes,
police have questioned him multiple times. But the guy is
still clearly upset because he believes Tina rose So, the

(11:00):
niece of Irene l Rosa, told police he mentioned bodies
and water wells up at Crystal Lake. And here next
he speaks directly about Tina. Boy, that girl's got a
hell of an imagination. She hangs around and and all
lott people. And uh. Then she grad to say, I

(11:21):
was saying all kinds of shit about her, her aunt
or whatever it is. And I said, no, that ain't
that it Wasn't said yeah, I think also, and I
said I'm I said, yeah, that's one of the reasons
I moved away. It's faint, but you can hear in
the background the witnesses second wife kind of reminding him
what to say, not for nothing, but he comes off

(11:44):
as if barely knowing Tina, despite the fact that they've
spoken a number of times at length about Irene LaRosa
and location of certain water wells. And I've heard two
voicemails he has left on Tina's phone, both of which
prove that he owes her very well. Then that last
call they had in fact being monitored by police, which

(12:06):
tipped them off to dig up a spot on the
window's property. The problem here is that when you have
a person of interest like the witness per se, you
want to be careful about showing your cards. But Tina
frequently shares her thoughts and unverified claims all over Facebook,
and you can imagine how that's going to make someone

(12:26):
like the witness feel. She was bringing up wells all
the time, and she said, where's the wells? I said,
when I was a kid, there were some wells out
in the woods and all that. I said, that's all
I can tell you. I think you're gonna have to
go look for him. And she kept saying all kinds
of ship that I was telling her about the well
and like I told the cops, I said, no, I
never said that. Yeah. So that voice in the background

(12:51):
mentioned something about money, and the witness confirms who is
advising him on the call, Like my wife said, this
does money involved, then they'll do anything to convict anybody,
and they don't give a ship if the person is
innocent or not. What he's referring to is the hundred
and fifty thousand dollar reward the town County State's Attorney's

(13:13):
office offered for any information leading to an arrest or
location of a body in the disappearances. That said, the
witness makes a point. Money it changes things for people.
I also read that Do you knew Irene LaRosa a
little bit? Right? Yeah? Do you think she's from what

(13:34):
I'm hearing other people telling me? She was nothing but
a goddamn slut? Irene? Who's who's saying that? Different people
would call me up from Connecticut and say, hey, did
you hear about Irene? And you know she uh known
as a slut? I even own I took her to

(13:56):
bed n and he said that's all she does is
jumping bed with this guy or that guy. I said no,
I said, I don't want to know anything about anybody
down there. Do you think Irene is missing? I don't know.
They said she was, Yeah, that the missing person report

(14:18):
was just filed in two thousand sixteen. I mean according
to the report she went missing in Well, if they
can't find her, she is missing. Right. That subtle laugh
he utters can be construed two ways. One he knows
or two he's being facetious. It's how he says if

(14:41):
they can't find her. That bothers me. And what's clear
as we get into it further, the witness is not stupid.
I need to explain a bit of context here. The

(15:03):
state police, many of whom I know, have stayed at
arm's length during my investigations. They speak to me. I
believe they respect me. I've provided them with tips since
two thousand thirteen, but at the same time, they share
nothing with me. I do get it, but things haven't
been easy since the newest detective on the cases took

(15:25):
over about two years ago. Now. I first met her
during a memorial service for Jane's pocket. We spoke, I
handed her my card. I told her to give me
a call. I had lots of information. She never called.
She's aware of what I've been doing, but it's basically
been radial silence on her end. That is until I

(15:47):
emailed her to let her know I had spoken with
the witness. She emailed me back within minutes and asked
if I could meet with her immediately. That alone tells
me how important the witness and what he has to
say is. In particular, when you read between the lines
of his responses, you were in Vietnam right? What years

(16:09):
did you were you in Vietnam? Ah Chef, A long while,
but I mean when all this ship was going on,
That's where I was. That would have put him in
Vietnam sometime between nineteen to nine. Impossible for him not

(16:31):
to know the dates, and even more impossible for him
to have been in Vietnam in nineteen seventy five. When
Susan LaRosa went missing. He brings up Bob l Rossa again.
I see him a couple of times after I got out.
That was it. Do you remember if Bob drove a

(16:51):
station wagon? I don't know if he drew the station
WAGONA not. That's silence before he answers. It makes me wonder,
do you think Bob Larros is a guy who's capable
of killing his wife? Oh? Yeah. The other thing, I
did you know if Bob worked for the Talent School

(17:13):
System at all? No, I worked for the Tallenge School System.
Oh you like a janitor or maintenance or something, jit
or whatever. If you recall Janic's pockets, medical records from
school went missing before she disappeared. Several sources have told
me the witness worked for the Talent School System, but

(17:35):
I needed to verify it for myself. Doesn't mean he
swiped those records. It only means he had the opportunity.
I also heard Bob was like a scrap metal guy.
He just drove around collecting scrap metal or something. Yeah,
and what he couldn't find a stole. I get a
sense the witnesses carefully answering me, thinking long and hard

(17:59):
about what he is saying. For a guy who told
me when we first got going that he didn't know
much about any of this and didn't even really know
Bob Rosa, he certainly knows specific details. Listen to how
he then interrupts my question with an answer. And I
also read in a report that Bernardette came over and

(18:20):
she clecked up the blood, and that, yeah, yeah, cleaned
up the bloods longer to tell, you know, the burning police,
not the ones they got nowadays, because the two of
them come up here and they were nice cops, and
the one back in the day, they were crooked as hell.
And Bobby Larrosa would bring in prostitutes and everything, drugs

(18:42):
and all that ship right into the station and very
seldom did he ever get a ticket. And I mean
to say, is he'd be going down the road in
a twenty five on our own, uh, doing sixty, and
you think, and there's burning cops, You think they gotta
give me to get dope? They put your head down.

(19:02):
Did do you know if Bob hung out at that
Eaglue restaurant. I don't know. I couldn't tell you say
like I said, I didn't hang around him. Everybody says
I hung around him. We jumped around, went drinking, and
I didn't have a bunch of bullshit. The witness goes
on to tell me he only has one lung left,

(19:23):
that cancer has taken the other from him, and he
now has tumors all over the remaining lung. Do you
still smoke? No? And I've had I want to say
two and fifty maybe three taken off my chest. Remember
that memory trigger from Stacy LaRosa, Bob and Susan's daughter

(19:47):
the cherry tobacco smoke. The conversation offered me the opportunity
to now get into that did you ever smoke? I asked,
smoked or what? Thirty years ago? So regrets? And they
checked me out and they said it ain't from smoking.
They said it's that agent Orange. I have to admit

(20:21):
I'm rather surprised the witness has stayed on the phone
with me this long. Then again, it was because of
his lengthy phone calls with Tina that prompted the police
to get the ball rolling in my investigation. After all
these years of staying quiet. You have to wonder why
he's so willing to talk now, and if maybe he

(20:41):
had injected himself into these cases because he felt he
had to. And as we get started talking again, he
makes an important point. You're gonna find somebody that's gonna
say all kinds I should about me. I'm up here
and I'm not down there, because uh, I can't defend
myself with that person. The minute they say it, well,

(21:03):
I mean, after it said, it's out there, so it's
going to travel. You tell me something that's good that
travels fast. It doesn't if it's bad, it travels like wildfire.
I mean, what would you say to those people who
say that you were involved in Irene and the girls
and helping Bob and everything. I already told you that

(21:24):
I had nothing to do with any of them. It's
easy to point the finger and say he did it
or she did it, or they did it. But to
go down and prove me or something else, right, right, right?
I mean, that's why I'm calling you, That's why I'm
giving the opportunity to and and I told you what
I know, which ain't very much. And uh, like I said,

(21:45):
I didn't hurt nobody. I didn't kill anybody, and I
didn't kidnap anybody. It's interesting to me that the witness
brings in kidnapping. I mean kidnapping had never been raised
in relation to any of these cases. I never helped
anybody do anything against any of the girls. That's missing.

(22:07):
My goal was to begin a conversation and keep the
channels open. He seemed like he had reached his daily
limit of talking. I mentioned how I'd like to call
back soon once I learned more information. He told me
to do whatever I wanted. That's all I got to
say in the matter. Right now. Since we last spoke,

(22:32):
the witness has gone quiet. I wound up calling him
back no fewer than five times over the course of
the next several months. He never took one call or
responded to a voicemail. I was told by law enforcement
that he said he was done talking to anyone. He
said what he needed to say, and it's just not

(22:53):
enough to locate a body. So it's time I move
on from him and do the one thing I know
I and do. In the final episode of Paper Ghosts,

(23:14):
I'm scared that they'll find something, and then I'm scared
that they won't find something. So you know, I'm all
over the place. We're looking for UM. Possibly the dogs
pacing to slow down, head hooks one way or the other. UM.
Usually they slow They slow down and get more intense.

(23:35):
Memories fade, people die, people move away, But we don't
give up. You know, we're still hoping UM for that breakthrough.
It's gonna give us the answers we've been looking for
for many, many years. Paper Ghosts is written and executive
produced by me and William Phelps, with help from producer
Christina Everett and sound editing by Pete Cardy from Backroom Audio.

(24:00):
A special thanks to Abu Safar and Will Pearson from
I Heart Radio. The series theme number four four two
is written and performed by Tom Mooney and Thomas Phelps.
For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
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