October 17, 2022 • 33 mins
In the series finale, Neha discusses communities that live along the India/Pakistan border with author and journalist Nilanjana Bhowmick. Later, she is joined by Avani Tandon Viera and Ansh Ranvir Vohra, co-creators of the Pind Collective, a collaborative art project that transcends the borders between these two countries.
Sources/Links:
For villages divided between India and Pakistan, a map drawn long ago still causes daily struggles - National Geographic
Voiceover for Nilanjana Bhowmick provided by Alisha Sehgal
https://www.instagram.com/partitionpodcast/
https://www.instagram.com/nehaaziz/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Borders have been created by men, and borders are very cruel.
As I've mentioned before, partition is something that isn't part
of the past. It very much lives in our present
and will certainly dictate our future. For our last episode,
I wanted to explore this idea even further with our guests.
(00:30):
One is an author and journalist who physically goes to
very remote border areas. The others use art to transcend
the physical barriers between India and Pakistan. For the past
several weeks, you've heard an array of stories across generations
about partition. But what do we do with all these conversations.
(00:50):
There are many current examples across the globe where we
can put this knowledge into action and attempt to make
the world a little bit better. From I Radio, I'm
Nahasis and this is Partition, a podcast that will take
a closer look into this often forgotten part of history.
(01:29):
The voice you heard at the beginning is from journalists
and author A Lungeon of Bomac. She recently wrote an
article for National Geographic about little villages along the India
Pakistan border and their everyday physical struggles caused by this
arbitrarily drawn line. In our article, she writes the following.
(01:53):
Along India's international border with Pakistan, southern hamlets on the
Ruby River rely on scattered lifelines for survival, a floating
bridge that has to be dismantled for four months every
year during months in season, A lone boat in the monsoons,
a couple of empathetic boatmen. Around thirty people live in
(02:17):
the cluster of seven villages known as Magora but Then,
which include Thor Lascian, Rujport, Ceba, Baril, Caglee, Mami, Chakranga
and Goodgard. On one side, the land is fenced by
the Revie, a fierce river that separates it from the
(02:39):
Indian mainland. On the other, miles of heavily guarded barbed
wire and steel mesh fence partition it from Pakistan. I
have always specialized in telling stories of the human condition,
so you know, it was a very hot story to
(03:00):
cover because that area is really remote. There is literally
just one boat to you know, like crossover, and that
also depends on how high the river is flowing. When
Alanina was approached by the magazine, she wasn't sure if
she was up for the job. She had just done
(03:21):
a difficult story about vaccinations in rural areas. She was
recovering from a third bout of COVID nineteen and she
was doing promotions for her book Lies. Our mothers told
us she was swamped at the end of it all.
The story was so gripping, you know, seventy five years
(03:44):
after independence, that you know, this was still the India,
you know, one of the Indians, you know, that was
still existing, was so so compelling that I honestly had
to put aside all my reservations and I said, I'm going,
you know, I mean, this is not a story that
I cannot not tell, you know, this is a story
(04:05):
I have to tell. She mentioned that although the area
she was visiting was a non confrontational border, she still
faced a lot of issues were trying to get in
even then because of the mere fact that this was
the India Pakistan border. It was very, very difficult getting permission,
(04:26):
to be honest with you, We were running against the
clock because the bridge was going to be dismantled, and
first we wanted to be there, you know, when the
bridge was being dismantled, but we didn't get the permission
for that. After I think, you know, two or three
weeks of struggling to get permission, we thought that this
was not happening because once you know, monsoon started in earnest,
(04:49):
then you know the river will flow and there was
no point in going because we would not be able
to cross. We could still do a story, but I
wouldn't do justice, you know, to the lives the people
in those on Clive's lead, because you know, unless you
experience what the experience, even though you know you're experiencing it,
maybe you're like for a couple of days, three days,
(05:11):
four days, you know, but still you have a taste
of If this is so difficult for me for four days,
just imagine this is a life that these people live
every day now. Longina states in the article that life
has remained unchanged since partition. Many issues remain. Roads are unpaved,
(05:33):
primary schools are struggling, and there are no high schools
or hospitals. In her article, she describes the daily pains
residents must endure. To approach the villages from the shore.
One has to carefully negotiate almost a mile of sandy
and slippery river band which turns into much when it rains,
giving way to unpaved and uneven stretches leading up to
(05:57):
the various villages. The challenges of daily living here has
intensified with the increasing frequency of extreme weather events due
to climate change, especially flooding. A seventy year old farmer
Jold sing is quoted saying, we are the forgotten people.
(06:18):
The fear of getting caught in a crossfire between the
two countries is always present. India and Pakistan have fought
two full fledged wars since, as well as several minor
skirmishes and a limited conflict and gargo in If another
war breaks out, the residents fear they would have nowhere
(06:40):
to run. We could be wiped off the face of
the earth during the night and nobody would know before
it's too late, Singh said. Despite running into problems with
(07:03):
the Indian Border Security Force while shooting footage, Landona was
able to get the story with some adjustments. She said.
Planning and executing the story took a little less than
twenty days. She drove ten hours from her home in
Lily to the Punjab province. She stayed in a local
army base called Patan Court. Every morning, the crew would
(07:24):
set out at five am in order to reach the
river by six am, the time when the first ferry
departs on a good day. Sometimes, you know, we would
just go and sit there, you know, because the water
levels would be high and the boat wouldn't be you know, lying,
(07:45):
and we would just sit there waiting, you know, along
with the passengers, you know, talking to them so or
just generally you know, just it was dropping on their conversations.
It is the whole thing, you know, that community unit
just depends on each other. So it it's such a
community feeling that even if you're a new person, you've
become a part of the community immediately because that's what
(08:08):
they do. You know. They have so little to go
on and their life is so full of struggles that
they somehow, you know, like embrace you, you know, with
an openness that is probably not possible you know in
a city or even you know, in places you know,
where life is easier. Nalandina had a total of five
(08:31):
days to capture the experiences of these communities. She and
the team gained assistance from locals in order to interview
the residents at these sparsely populated areas. They had a
rough first day they weren't really getting the stories they
had envisioned, but on day too, she encountered a husband
and wife Manjeeth and Regin there waiting for about so
(08:53):
you know, like this couple was, you know, like they
were legs waiting to cross, and she was carrying like
this big shoot kind of a bag, you know, and
I could see that she had food in the bag.
So then I just you know, like approached him. Just
you know, this was not planned or anything. I had
no idea about who the guy was or what they
(09:14):
were doing. I just you know, approached him out of
this this instinct, you know, like some instinct, you know.
And when I was talking to him, that's when the
story just came out. So I said that, you know,
are you going on the other side and he said, yes,
we are going on the other SIP side said that
what is that you know your wife is carrying and
he said that, oh, it's food for us. So then
(09:34):
I was intrigued. I was like, what do you mean
you know, so do you have larned there? Right? And
he said, yeah, you know, we go across every day.
We have learned there. So you know, like she has
got you know, like breakfast and lunch and my father
is on the other side, so you know, We're going
to go there the entire day, you know, work on
the fields and then you know, I mean in the evening.
(09:55):
And then I said that, you know, so you do
this every day and he said, yes, we do this
every day. We you know, like he lives around twenty
kilometers away and he leaves home at around four am
every morning to come to the boat stop. I want
to take the boat you know, to the other side.
For me, that was the first you know, like glimpse
of the story I was going to tell that I had.
(10:18):
When she tagged along with this couple, another angle of
the story presented itself. It is a story about separation,
you know, like a story about a border within a country.
The people live in land that belongs to India. Part
of the land is you know, on the Pakistan side,
but they don't live there. You know, it's like just
(10:38):
you know, land for cultivation. But they're still you know,
like live on Indian land. But you know, the river
Rugby is such a furious river that almost everyone I
spoke to there told me the same thing that you know,
this river is like, you know, it separates us from India.
This is our border, you know for India. The order starts,
(11:00):
you know, like from the border fences, but for us,
you know, the border starts from here. So what came
out on the second day is that you know, like
the elderly have decided to stay back because they can't
abandon the land. But you know, like they also know
that they're the younger generation, like not their children, but
(11:22):
their grandchildren. You don't have no future on that land.
That land doesn't even have a primary health care center
or anything. You know, there is like nothing there, you know,
so they have what they have all done, you know,
is that you know, they all bought land on the
other side, which is you know, like the mainland Maka Patan.
So the younger generation has moved there. Their children, you know,
(11:44):
go to school, you know, like over there, they just
you know, like come and go every day. Nol Angina
goes on to say that the people who live in
these small villages are lifelines for each other when the
water rises that from the mainland in the night, you know,
after seven o'clock when the boat stops back out off.
(12:05):
So you know, even if there is a medical emergency,
I mean they sometimes you know, the bass will help them,
you know, like to probably get to the mainland. But
you know, and and the boatman you know also because
he's part of the community and he feels so bad
for them. If they call him in an emergency, he'll come,
you know, and despite you know it's being so dangerous
in the night, you know, to take the boat. He
(12:26):
is sometimes you know, he does take the boat, you know,
to help you know, someone who's probably ill. So you know,
there's this community feeling. You know that is literally you know,
the lifeline of this community over here. And you know,
like when you get on the boat, because there is
no embankment, right so you know, like they have to
(12:48):
struggle to get the boat and then you know, like
the people who know wore pushing the boat, and even
the boat is steered on the one end you know,
by the boatman, but on the other end by the pass.
Just so it's a very you know, like they do
it together because you know it's they all are from
the community. They have grown up. You know, this has
(13:09):
been the life for you know, seventy five years, hundred years,
you know, like as long you know, like as some
of them can remember. So you know, like there is
this community feeling because they understand that if nobody is
there for them. You know, they have to make the
best of you know, like whatever they have. That's how
you know, like it's working there, she says, when visiting
(13:31):
Macora Patan, you really see how this may may divide
affects these people. Someone came there, measured the land and
fenced it off. But the land they fenced off where
some people's livelihood. Right, they've fenced it off without you know,
(13:51):
paying heat to the fact that there is a furious
river that flows by, that keeps on changing course, that
floods a lot, and that you know, these communities would
be totally cut off from the mainland. They created a border.
They separated this community, you know, from the mainland from
the Indian mainland, and didn't even provide them with the bridge.
(14:15):
You know, a simple bridge can change the fortunes of
this community. A simple bridge. You know, if you think
about this five hamlets, there are people that they have lives,
they have stories, they have lived lives. They have seen
you know, the India Pakistan partition. They've seen India getting independent.
(14:39):
They have had full lives. They have you know, lived,
they have loved, they have lost, they have lost loved
once because they didn't have a bridge. You know, women
have died at childbirth because you know, they could not
be taken to the hospital. And these are real stories,
these are real people. Their stories should matter. Their stories
should matter all of us, but their story should matter
(15:02):
to our governments. In a world where we are boasting
off immense technological you know, like innovation and advancement. This
is the saddest story. The saddest story always belongs to
human beings. The residents were tired of being abandoned, so
they took a stand for the first time. You know,
(15:25):
they have boycotted the elections, local elections. That's a huge
thing because in India and probably in every you know,
like developing nation or even developed nation. You know, policy
is determined by the vote, vote back right, and if
people are in a boycotting elections, that's a short way
to get the retention. There has been a regime change
(15:46):
in Punjab as well. You know, many ministers have visited
that area and promised that up bridge would be built
by the end of this year and hopefully, you know,
we would have country. You take to the push a
little bit me and saw me throughout story and hopefully
you know, like there will be a bridge, you know,
(16:06):
by the end of the year, No Londona and I
are counting the days. The Pin Collective is a collaborative
(16:40):
art space that seeks to bring together artists of all
kinds across the border. It was founded by PhD candidate
of Nanda and Vera and filmmaker ash Revere Ora. The
name not only comes from the combination of India and Pakistan,
but also the word pinned in Punjabi means neighborhood or village.
In twenty thirteen, while at a college to pay competition
(17:03):
of the visited Pakistan and it was there that a
plan began to form. At the time, I don't think
I thought about the weight of that experience or how
difficult it was. But once I was there, Um, it
was strange because it felt like I was visiting home.
(17:23):
But obviously there were many ways in which it was different.
There were all of these commonalities, whether cultural or social
or linguistic, people with whom you know, I had so
much in common. But at the same time I was
aware that I had crossed the border and that I
had traveled very far from home in a certain sense. Um,
what was most striking for me, though, was that when
(17:44):
I returned, when I made that journey back across Vaga,
I returned with all of these friendships and these new
connections that I hadn't even imagined were possible, but also
the realization that short of crossing that physical border, there
weren't very many opportunity to use for young people like
myself to connect with young people across the border. And
(18:05):
that sounds strange because as people who grow up on
the Internet, who grew up digually connected and savvy, the
assumption is that anybody that you want to speak to
across the world is within reach, and that's really not
true when it comes to India and Pakistan. When you
think about the average Indian twenty something, they're not likely
(18:26):
to have friends across the border, even though there are
so many reasons for those friendships spaces. She quickly wanted
to remedy this obstacle and create a space for like
minded people to join her, regardless of theographical distance on
the subcontinent. Put the next and speak and address for
(18:47):
what we have in common and the past that lies
behind us, as well as the possibilities that lie ahead
of us, and initially was one of the participating artists
that I was keen to work with at the very
big ning of the project. But what I quickly realized
was that we were very compatible in terms of our
working styles and that he would be wonderful advision to
(19:08):
the team. But also that with a project like this,
more hands is always better, and the more space that
is for collaboration and different viewpoints, the further the project
can travel. Really, so I invited him to join and
very kindly agreed, And that was the stuff. Ash remembers
(19:31):
listening to stories from his grandmother, which not only inspired
his role in the Pin Collective, but also as a filmmaker.
For me, as a storytell over, I used to spend
summer vacations with her growing up, and before going to sleep,
she used to tell me stories of her time in
Pakistan and what should remember the bit as a man
(19:52):
look the story of when she worked on foot from
Pakistan to India, when the when the partisher happened, and
sort of the encounters she faced on the journey to
India as well as what it was like to finding India.
And she went on and on, and I with the
perfect audience for it. So I think those stories in
(20:13):
particular inspired my interest in a lot of the work
that ended up doing with the collective as well as
UH in the field of documentary. General or of my
work personally tries to extore the idea of home and
belong in separation. I grew up listening to all of
those stories from my grandmother, and around the time the
(20:36):
pain Collector began, when we were also starting to realize
that we were very quickly using the generation that experienced
the partition first hand. My grandmother included all I have
is like memories of her telling the stories as drawing up,
but I felt a sense of urgency wanting to crystallize
some of those stories and passed them on Army wanted
(21:01):
to more detail about their project. So the way the
collective works is, the core that runs through all of
the projects we do is one of collective work. So
in the earlier editions of our project, we would pick
a theme, so say home or resistance, and we would
(21:21):
leave that theme open to reputation. And the artists who
participate in our projects from all sorts of disciplines, so
we have dancers, photographers, writers, poets, and the idea is
that they look at that central theme and try to
understand how it resonates with them and bringing to the
table a piece of work that they think best macapsulates
(21:45):
what the means to them, and from there we begin
a process of response where he charges through the piece
from the other side of the border and response to that.
So what you have at the end is a collection
of works and coverzation with from another participlants across orders
that really allow you to look at the central idea
to something a simple as home and talk about what
(22:08):
that means in various registers and in various mediums. So,
for instance, the home, we have ideas of the body
and how we feel at home in the body. You
have ideas of lost forms and what that means. When
you have the idea of my creation and travel, and
so having a process where there is a sense of
(22:30):
trust in the artists and open endedness to you know,
how you operate, we find leads to end results that
supplies us in all the best ways. Because it's the
focus of your project is diversity and a range of
approaches and a range of expressions. Then having just one
step central to it and then allowing that to go
(22:52):
where it goes, we found organically leads to very interesting
re selves. That's one mode that we've used in the
various word just that we've run this process allowed the
collective to make more collaborative projects. So for instance, we
have the project to which translates to how far, which
(23:15):
essentially fed up one office from India and one office
from Pakistan mid pandemic to consider what it means to recastly.
This made this means politically because you know they're operating
in a decline. It and believes of industry remind us,
but also within the pandemic to think about what bustans
meant there, and we created a series of games there
(23:37):
that responded to that theme. So the project, you know,
evolves over time, but with each edition works remain. Central
is this idea of collaboration and also this idea of
letting it be artistic and letting it free participant pism
like several previous guests are, and any feel like they
have a responsibility to get these stories out there. One
(24:04):
of my takeaways from this has been in the India
Pakistan context specifically, there's an inherited that there's a trauma
that we've inherited and that's been passed on through us
through a little in the third generation since the partition, uh,
and we've we've had a very limited vocabulary to sort
of help express what that drama is and help process it,
(24:28):
given that, like i'ven you mentioned, there's been such limited
avenues for us to even acknowledge that drama likes to
have conversations each other across the border in a way
that might help process it, or might help navigate through
the challenges of being who we are and the living
through having lived through that demoil with the past, but
(24:49):
also navigating to sort of very fraught political relationships that
our countries have. And what better way to do it,
and what better doing is to try and sort of
I get through those very complicated landscapes than to rely
on story. I'm sure calls a few favorite memories from
the collective. A couple of my favorite moments of the
(25:13):
last couple of years that have come from interactions at
the Pin Collective A bit This one time, after my
I filmed my interview with my grandmother, one of the
artists from Pakistan sort of ammuciately identified with a lot
of what she was fearing in my grandmother's story and
related it to the story that her color told her
(25:36):
growing up that was so touched by my grandmother and
saw her grandmother and in my nanny in a way
that inspired her to create an artwork that that encapsulated
my grandmother's journey from Pakistan to India, and that connection
was able to break through sort of that one or
one interaction between just me and Sanna Gratis, but also
(25:58):
impacked and very meaningful ways. Uh. My grandmother then ended
up recording a message for son. I am able to
that connection, however brief in a way that I know
my grandmother now has that artwork movement continues to the
data every morning. Um So I think like the importance
(26:21):
of those connections, so it sort of really what's worth it.
Another favorite moment of mine and the favorites of outcome
of a lot of these intellactions. It's been two artists
who worked on a scene together in anet up and
that scene end up being about their neighborhoods. This was
part of the Kidney Do a project that acting was
(26:44):
reflective the move and too through over the course of
that project and describing their neighborhoods to each other and
what it's like to live the cities that they live in.
People they do did not just form upon that lasted
over the course of that project, but every couple of
months I see them wishing each other on Instagram and
(27:06):
it's a it's a resilient connection that it's stayed on
beyond that particular interaction that they had posit the confines
of the PIN collectives. So I feel like being able
to establish those long lasting relationships and then through the
artwork we put out into the world, hopefully invoking conversations
(27:28):
between the audiences and hope pay hopefully having them identify
with a lot of the stories you're trying to tell
a lot of fine friends something that resonates. I think
it's the goal, and hopefully clergy a bit of that
of the last. Of course, the pair of stress that
having images of partition outside of those from the papers
(27:49):
and news stories is vital. They want to connect these
stories in emotion and not a few quick bullet points.
I couldn't help but ask what future they saw for
India and Pakistan. It's a hard question. You're not wrong, um,
I think it's a very difficult trajectory to charge to
try to understand where we go from here. On a
(28:12):
personal level, I think, UM, I have a lot of
hope when it comes to, for instance, other people, you wait,
people doing incredible work across the border, whether documentary or artistic.
There's a real sense, I think, both in India and
Pakistan that what we have in common is is worth preserving.
I think art and the personal is where I see
(28:37):
most space for connection, simply because and I'm a going Unshire,
because there's room for depth, and there's room for accessibility
for the personal, for understanding, for complication, a lot of
which is a rays. When it comes to political conversation,
I think the culture of artul countries is likely to
(28:59):
be really is two people a lot of conference, just
because the political is hard to charge and it's hard
to control. I think for a very long time victims
or survivors of partisans have had typicular relationships with that experience,
but a lot of love and a lot of fondness
(29:21):
and a deep connection with where they came from, something
that's not always acknowledged when we think about how differently
and as a political concept for about it is a
difficult concept. Um. I think our identities spent far beyond
geographical boundaries, and we'll continue to do so. And I
hope honestly that projects like our own continue to multiply
(29:43):
so that it's not exceptional for people. And I decided
the border to be speaking, it's not exceptional or projects
that cars to be connecting people because that's been knowing.
So that's the peple that I hope for. Empathy the
skill I think every person needs to possess. We shouldn't
(30:03):
ignore events happening in our backyard or other places because
we think it has nothing to do with us. This
idea of an ease when it comes to the other
isn't specific to India and Pakistan. Many countries do not
want citizens from other countries that don't look like them.
For example, the treatment of Syrian refugees differed immensely from
(30:25):
Ukrainian refugees. There has been a rapid rise of nationalism
among many countries, including the UK and the United States.
Children are still being separated from their families, Hateful legislation
continues to be created to erase marginalized communities, and there
are large amounts of misinformation when it comes to a
(30:45):
variety of topics like elections and immigration policy. In order
to have empathy, we need to go beyond sixty two
TV clips or breaking news articles and learn about these
issues more deeply. There is no one piece of material
that can encompass an entire major historical event and every
(31:05):
detail that comes with it, whether it is a film, book,
or podcast. As a creator, my goal with this show
is to highlight Partition in relation to memories, lesser known stories,
and it's continuing effects after seventy five years, but there
is so much more to discover. I encourage everyone to
(31:25):
look into the numerous examples mentioned and to continue your
journey with Partition. Read one of the books we quoted from,
look at the Partition archive and watch other experiences, or
visit pretheca's art installations online or in person. You can
find a list of all of our sources linked in
the show notes. Look into your family's history and have
(31:47):
a chat with your relatives. If partition is something that
you didn't know much about, ask yourself what else you
may not know. Share your understanding and realizations with others.
There is no highline on learning or changing our perspectives
when we obtain new information. The simple willingness of wanting
to investigate stories and histories outside of what we already
(32:10):
know is incredibly powerful. I am eternally grateful to you
for listening, thank you for giving me your time and
attention these past ten weeks, and I sincerely hope I'll
be back soon with more underrepresented stories. Until we meet again,
(32:34):
I'm Nahasis and this is Partition. Partition was developed as
a part of the Next Up initiative created by Anna Hosnier,
Joel Monique and Seni A median. Partition is produced by
Anna Hosnier, Tricia Mukerjee and Becca Ramos. It is edited
(32:55):
by Rory Gagan, with the original score composed by Mark Hadley.
The in
Borders have been created by men, and borders are very cruel.
As I've mentioned before, partition is something that isn't part
of the past. It very much lives in our present
and will certainly dictate our future. For our last episode,
I wanted to explore this idea even further with our guests.
(00:30):
One is an author and journalist who physically goes to
very remote border areas. The others use art to transcend
the physical barriers between India and Pakistan. For the past
several weeks, you've heard an array of stories across generations
about partition. But what do we do with all these conversations.
(00:50):
There are many current examples across the globe where we
can put this knowledge into action and attempt to make
the world a little bit better. From I Radio, I'm
Nahasis and this is Partition, a podcast that will take
a closer look into this often forgotten part of history.
(01:29):
The voice you heard at the beginning is from journalists
and author A Lungeon of Bomac. She recently wrote an
article for National Geographic about little villages along the India
Pakistan border and their everyday physical struggles caused by this
arbitrarily drawn line. In our article, she writes the following.
(01:53):
Along India's international border with Pakistan, southern hamlets on the
Ruby River rely on scattered lifelines for survival, a floating
bridge that has to be dismantled for four months every
year during months in season, A lone boat in the monsoons,
a couple of empathetic boatmen. Around thirty people live in
(02:17):
the cluster of seven villages known as Magora but Then,
which include Thor Lascian, Rujport, Ceba, Baril, Caglee, Mami, Chakranga
and Goodgard. On one side, the land is fenced by
the Revie, a fierce river that separates it from the
(02:39):
Indian mainland. On the other, miles of heavily guarded barbed
wire and steel mesh fence partition it from Pakistan. I
have always specialized in telling stories of the human condition,
so you know, it was a very hot story to
(03:00):
cover because that area is really remote. There is literally
just one boat to you know, like crossover, and that
also depends on how high the river is flowing. When
Alanina was approached by the magazine, she wasn't sure if
she was up for the job. She had just done
(03:21):
a difficult story about vaccinations in rural areas. She was
recovering from a third bout of COVID nineteen and she
was doing promotions for her book Lies. Our mothers told
us she was swamped at the end of it all.
The story was so gripping, you know, seventy five years
(03:44):
after independence, that you know, this was still the India,
you know, one of the Indians, you know, that was
still existing, was so so compelling that I honestly had
to put aside all my reservations and I said, I'm going,
you know, I mean, this is not a story that
I cannot not tell, you know, this is a story
(04:05):
I have to tell. She mentioned that although the area
she was visiting was a non confrontational border, she still
faced a lot of issues were trying to get in
even then because of the mere fact that this was
the India Pakistan border. It was very, very difficult getting permission,
(04:26):
to be honest with you, We were running against the
clock because the bridge was going to be dismantled, and
first we wanted to be there, you know, when the
bridge was being dismantled, but we didn't get the permission
for that. After I think, you know, two or three
weeks of struggling to get permission, we thought that this
was not happening because once you know, monsoon started in earnest,
(04:49):
then you know the river will flow and there was
no point in going because we would not be able
to cross. We could still do a story, but I
wouldn't do justice, you know, to the lives the people
in those on Clive's lead, because you know, unless you
experience what the experience, even though you know you're experiencing it,
maybe you're like for a couple of days, three days,
(05:11):
four days, you know, but still you have a taste
of If this is so difficult for me for four days,
just imagine this is a life that these people live
every day now. Longina states in the article that life
has remained unchanged since partition. Many issues remain. Roads are unpaved,
(05:33):
primary schools are struggling, and there are no high schools
or hospitals. In her article, she describes the daily pains
residents must endure. To approach the villages from the shore.
One has to carefully negotiate almost a mile of sandy
and slippery river band which turns into much when it rains,
giving way to unpaved and uneven stretches leading up to
(05:57):
the various villages. The challenges of daily living here has
intensified with the increasing frequency of extreme weather events due
to climate change, especially flooding. A seventy year old farmer
Jold sing is quoted saying, we are the forgotten people.
(06:18):
The fear of getting caught in a crossfire between the
two countries is always present. India and Pakistan have fought
two full fledged wars since, as well as several minor
skirmishes and a limited conflict and gargo in If another
war breaks out, the residents fear they would have nowhere
(06:40):
to run. We could be wiped off the face of
the earth during the night and nobody would know before
it's too late, Singh said. Despite running into problems with
(07:03):
the Indian Border Security Force while shooting footage, Landona was
able to get the story with some adjustments. She said.
Planning and executing the story took a little less than
twenty days. She drove ten hours from her home in
Lily to the Punjab province. She stayed in a local
army base called Patan Court. Every morning, the crew would
(07:24):
set out at five am in order to reach the
river by six am, the time when the first ferry
departs on a good day. Sometimes, you know, we would
just go and sit there, you know, because the water
levels would be high and the boat wouldn't be you know, lying,
(07:45):
and we would just sit there waiting, you know, along
with the passengers, you know, talking to them so or
just generally you know, just it was dropping on their conversations.
It is the whole thing, you know, that community unit
just depends on each other. So it it's such a
community feeling that even if you're a new person, you've
become a part of the community immediately because that's what
(08:08):
they do. You know. They have so little to go
on and their life is so full of struggles that
they somehow, you know, like embrace you, you know, with
an openness that is probably not possible you know in
a city or even you know, in places you know,
where life is easier. Nalandina had a total of five
(08:31):
days to capture the experiences of these communities. She and
the team gained assistance from locals in order to interview
the residents at these sparsely populated areas. They had a
rough first day they weren't really getting the stories they
had envisioned, but on day too, she encountered a husband
and wife Manjeeth and Regin there waiting for about so
(08:53):
you know, like this couple was, you know, like they
were legs waiting to cross, and she was carrying like
this big shoot kind of a bag, you know, and
I could see that she had food in the bag.
So then I just you know, like approached him. Just
you know, this was not planned or anything. I had
no idea about who the guy was or what they
(09:14):
were doing. I just you know, approached him out of
this this instinct, you know, like some instinct, you know.
And when I was talking to him, that's when the
story just came out. So I said that, you know,
are you going on the other side and he said, yes,
we are going on the other SIP side said that
what is that you know your wife is carrying and
he said that, oh, it's food for us. So then
(09:34):
I was intrigued. I was like, what do you mean
you know, so do you have larned there? Right? And
he said, yeah, you know, we go across every day.
We have learned there. So you know, like she has
got you know, like breakfast and lunch and my father
is on the other side, so you know, We're going
to go there the entire day, you know, work on
the fields and then you know, I mean in the evening.
(09:55):
And then I said that, you know, so you do
this every day and he said, yes, we do this
every day. We you know, like he lives around twenty
kilometers away and he leaves home at around four am
every morning to come to the boat stop. I want
to take the boat you know, to the other side.
For me, that was the first you know, like glimpse
of the story I was going to tell that I had.
(10:18):
When she tagged along with this couple, another angle of
the story presented itself. It is a story about separation,
you know, like a story about a border within a country.
The people live in land that belongs to India. Part
of the land is you know, on the Pakistan side,
but they don't live there. You know, it's like just
(10:38):
you know, land for cultivation. But they're still you know,
like live on Indian land. But you know, the river
Rugby is such a furious river that almost everyone I
spoke to there told me the same thing that you know,
this river is like, you know, it separates us from India.
This is our border, you know for India. The order starts,
(11:00):
you know, like from the border fences, but for us,
you know, the border starts from here. So what came
out on the second day is that you know, like
the elderly have decided to stay back because they can't
abandon the land. But you know, like they also know
that they're the younger generation, like not their children, but
(11:22):
their grandchildren. You don't have no future on that land.
That land doesn't even have a primary health care center
or anything. You know, there is like nothing there, you know,
so they have what they have all done, you know,
is that you know, they all bought land on the
other side, which is you know, like the mainland Maka Patan.
So the younger generation has moved there. Their children, you know,
(11:44):
go to school, you know, like over there, they just
you know, like come and go every day. Nol Angina
goes on to say that the people who live in
these small villages are lifelines for each other when the
water rises that from the mainland in the night, you know,
after seven o'clock when the boat stops back out off.
(12:05):
So you know, even if there is a medical emergency,
I mean they sometimes you know, the bass will help them,
you know, like to probably get to the mainland. But
you know, and and the boatman you know also because
he's part of the community and he feels so bad
for them. If they call him in an emergency, he'll come,
you know, and despite you know it's being so dangerous
in the night, you know, to take the boat. He
(12:26):
is sometimes you know, he does take the boat, you know,
to help you know, someone who's probably ill. So you know,
there's this community feeling. You know that is literally you know,
the lifeline of this community over here. And you know,
like when you get on the boat, because there is
no embankment, right so you know, like they have to
(12:48):
struggle to get the boat and then you know, like
the people who know wore pushing the boat, and even
the boat is steered on the one end you know,
by the boatman, but on the other end by the pass.
Just so it's a very you know, like they do
it together because you know it's they all are from
the community. They have grown up. You know, this has
(13:09):
been the life for you know, seventy five years, hundred years,
you know, like as long you know, like as some
of them can remember. So you know, like there is
this community feeling because they understand that if nobody is
there for them. You know, they have to make the
best of you know, like whatever they have. That's how
you know, like it's working there, she says, when visiting
(13:31):
Macora Patan, you really see how this may may divide
affects these people. Someone came there, measured the land and
fenced it off. But the land they fenced off where
some people's livelihood. Right, they've fenced it off without you know,
(13:51):
paying heat to the fact that there is a furious
river that flows by, that keeps on changing course, that
floods a lot, and that you know, these communities would
be totally cut off from the mainland. They created a border.
They separated this community, you know, from the mainland from
the Indian mainland, and didn't even provide them with the bridge.
(14:15):
You know, a simple bridge can change the fortunes of
this community. A simple bridge. You know, if you think
about this five hamlets, there are people that they have lives,
they have stories, they have lived lives. They have seen
you know, the India Pakistan partition. They've seen India getting independent.
(14:39):
They have had full lives. They have you know, lived,
they have loved, they have lost, they have lost loved
once because they didn't have a bridge. You know, women
have died at childbirth because you know, they could not
be taken to the hospital. And these are real stories,
these are real people. Their stories should matter. Their stories
should matter all of us, but their story should matter
(15:02):
to our governments. In a world where we are boasting
off immense technological you know, like innovation and advancement. This
is the saddest story. The saddest story always belongs to
human beings. The residents were tired of being abandoned, so
they took a stand for the first time. You know,
(15:25):
they have boycotted the elections, local elections. That's a huge
thing because in India and probably in every you know,
like developing nation or even developed nation. You know, policy
is determined by the vote, vote back right, and if
people are in a boycotting elections, that's a short way
to get the retention. There has been a regime change
(15:46):
in Punjab as well. You know, many ministers have visited
that area and promised that up bridge would be built
by the end of this year and hopefully, you know,
we would have country. You take to the push a
little bit me and saw me throughout story and hopefully
you know, like there will be a bridge, you know,
(16:06):
by the end of the year, No Londona and I
are counting the days. The Pin Collective is a collaborative
(16:40):
art space that seeks to bring together artists of all
kinds across the border. It was founded by PhD candidate
of Nanda and Vera and filmmaker ash Revere Ora. The
name not only comes from the combination of India and Pakistan,
but also the word pinned in Punjabi means neighborhood or village.
In twenty thirteen, while at a college to pay competition
(17:03):
of the visited Pakistan and it was there that a
plan began to form. At the time, I don't think
I thought about the weight of that experience or how
difficult it was. But once I was there, Um, it
was strange because it felt like I was visiting home.
(17:23):
But obviously there were many ways in which it was different.
There were all of these commonalities, whether cultural or social
or linguistic, people with whom you know, I had so
much in common. But at the same time I was
aware that I had crossed the border and that I
had traveled very far from home in a certain sense. Um,
what was most striking for me, though, was that when
(17:44):
I returned, when I made that journey back across Vaga,
I returned with all of these friendships and these new
connections that I hadn't even imagined were possible, but also
the realization that short of crossing that physical border, there
weren't very many opportunity to use for young people like
myself to connect with young people across the border. And
(18:05):
that sounds strange because as people who grow up on
the Internet, who grew up digually connected and savvy, the
assumption is that anybody that you want to speak to
across the world is within reach, and that's really not
true when it comes to India and Pakistan. When you
think about the average Indian twenty something, they're not likely
(18:26):
to have friends across the border, even though there are
so many reasons for those friendships spaces. She quickly wanted
to remedy this obstacle and create a space for like
minded people to join her, regardless of theographical distance on
the subcontinent. Put the next and speak and address for
(18:47):
what we have in common and the past that lies
behind us, as well as the possibilities that lie ahead
of us, and initially was one of the participating artists
that I was keen to work with at the very
big ning of the project. But what I quickly realized
was that we were very compatible in terms of our
working styles and that he would be wonderful advision to
(19:08):
the team. But also that with a project like this,
more hands is always better, and the more space that
is for collaboration and different viewpoints, the further the project
can travel. Really, so I invited him to join and
very kindly agreed, And that was the stuff. Ash remembers
(19:31):
listening to stories from his grandmother, which not only inspired
his role in the Pin Collective, but also as a filmmaker.
For me, as a storytell over, I used to spend
summer vacations with her growing up, and before going to sleep,
she used to tell me stories of her time in
Pakistan and what should remember the bit as a man
(19:52):
look the story of when she worked on foot from
Pakistan to India, when the when the partisher happened, and
sort of the encounters she faced on the journey to
India as well as what it was like to finding India.
And she went on and on, and I with the
perfect audience for it. So I think those stories in
(20:13):
particular inspired my interest in a lot of the work
that ended up doing with the collective as well as
UH in the field of documentary. General or of my
work personally tries to extore the idea of home and
belong in separation. I grew up listening to all of
those stories from my grandmother, and around the time the
(20:36):
pain Collector began, when we were also starting to realize
that we were very quickly using the generation that experienced
the partition first hand. My grandmother included all I have
is like memories of her telling the stories as drawing up,
but I felt a sense of urgency wanting to crystallize
some of those stories and passed them on Army wanted
(21:01):
to more detail about their project. So the way the
collective works is, the core that runs through all of
the projects we do is one of collective work. So
in the earlier editions of our project, we would pick
a theme, so say home or resistance, and we would
(21:21):
leave that theme open to reputation. And the artists who
participate in our projects from all sorts of disciplines, so
we have dancers, photographers, writers, poets, and the idea is
that they look at that central theme and try to
understand how it resonates with them and bringing to the
table a piece of work that they think best macapsulates
(21:45):
what the means to them, and from there we begin
a process of response where he charges through the piece
from the other side of the border and response to that.
So what you have at the end is a collection
of works and coverzation with from another participlants across orders
that really allow you to look at the central idea
to something a simple as home and talk about what
(22:08):
that means in various registers and in various mediums. So,
for instance, the home, we have ideas of the body
and how we feel at home in the body. You
have ideas of lost forms and what that means. When
you have the idea of my creation and travel, and
so having a process where there is a sense of
(22:30):
trust in the artists and open endedness to you know,
how you operate, we find leads to end results that
supplies us in all the best ways. Because it's the
focus of your project is diversity and a range of
approaches and a range of expressions. Then having just one
step central to it and then allowing that to go
(22:52):
where it goes, we found organically leads to very interesting
re selves. That's one mode that we've used in the
various word just that we've run this process allowed the
collective to make more collaborative projects. So for instance, we
have the project to which translates to how far, which
(23:15):
essentially fed up one office from India and one office
from Pakistan mid pandemic to consider what it means to recastly.
This made this means politically because you know they're operating
in a decline. It and believes of industry remind us,
but also within the pandemic to think about what bustans
meant there, and we created a series of games there
(23:37):
that responded to that theme. So the project, you know,
evolves over time, but with each edition works remain. Central
is this idea of collaboration and also this idea of
letting it be artistic and letting it free participant pism
like several previous guests are, and any feel like they
have a responsibility to get these stories out there. One
(24:04):
of my takeaways from this has been in the India
Pakistan context specifically, there's an inherited that there's a trauma
that we've inherited and that's been passed on through us
through a little in the third generation since the partition, uh,
and we've we've had a very limited vocabulary to sort
of help express what that drama is and help process it,
(24:28):
given that, like i'ven you mentioned, there's been such limited
avenues for us to even acknowledge that drama likes to
have conversations each other across the border in a way
that might help process it, or might help navigate through
the challenges of being who we are and the living
through having lived through that demoil with the past, but
(24:49):
also navigating to sort of very fraught political relationships that
our countries have. And what better way to do it,
and what better doing is to try and sort of
I get through those very complicated landscapes than to rely
on story. I'm sure calls a few favorite memories from
the collective. A couple of my favorite moments of the
(25:13):
last couple of years that have come from interactions at
the Pin Collective A bit This one time, after my
I filmed my interview with my grandmother, one of the
artists from Pakistan sort of ammuciately identified with a lot
of what she was fearing in my grandmother's story and
related it to the story that her color told her
(25:36):
growing up that was so touched by my grandmother and
saw her grandmother and in my nanny in a way
that inspired her to create an artwork that that encapsulated
my grandmother's journey from Pakistan to India, and that connection
was able to break through sort of that one or
one interaction between just me and Sanna Gratis, but also
(25:58):
impacked and very meaningful ways. Uh. My grandmother then ended
up recording a message for son. I am able to
that connection, however brief in a way that I know
my grandmother now has that artwork movement continues to the
data every morning. Um So I think like the importance
(26:21):
of those connections, so it sort of really what's worth it.
Another favorite moment of mine and the favorites of outcome
of a lot of these intellactions. It's been two artists
who worked on a scene together in anet up and
that scene end up being about their neighborhoods. This was
part of the Kidney Do a project that acting was
(26:44):
reflective the move and too through over the course of
that project and describing their neighborhoods to each other and
what it's like to live the cities that they live in.
People they do did not just form upon that lasted
over the course of that project, but every couple of
months I see them wishing each other on Instagram and
(27:06):
it's a it's a resilient connection that it's stayed on
beyond that particular interaction that they had posit the confines
of the PIN collectives. So I feel like being able
to establish those long lasting relationships and then through the
artwork we put out into the world, hopefully invoking conversations
(27:28):
between the audiences and hope pay hopefully having them identify
with a lot of the stories you're trying to tell
a lot of fine friends something that resonates. I think
it's the goal, and hopefully clergy a bit of that
of the last. Of course, the pair of stress that
having images of partition outside of those from the papers
(27:49):
and news stories is vital. They want to connect these
stories in emotion and not a few quick bullet points.
I couldn't help but ask what future they saw for
India and Pakistan. It's a hard question. You're not wrong, um,
I think it's a very difficult trajectory to charge to
try to understand where we go from here. On a
(28:12):
personal level, I think, UM, I have a lot of
hope when it comes to, for instance, other people, you wait,
people doing incredible work across the border, whether documentary or artistic.
There's a real sense, I think, both in India and
Pakistan that what we have in common is is worth preserving.
I think art and the personal is where I see
(28:37):
most space for connection, simply because and I'm a going Unshire,
because there's room for depth, and there's room for accessibility
for the personal, for understanding, for complication, a lot of
which is a rays. When it comes to political conversation,
I think the culture of artul countries is likely to
(28:59):
be really is two people a lot of conference, just
because the political is hard to charge and it's hard
to control. I think for a very long time victims
or survivors of partisans have had typicular relationships with that experience,
but a lot of love and a lot of fondness
(29:21):
and a deep connection with where they came from, something
that's not always acknowledged when we think about how differently
and as a political concept for about it is a
difficult concept. Um. I think our identities spent far beyond
geographical boundaries, and we'll continue to do so. And I
hope honestly that projects like our own continue to multiply
(29:43):
so that it's not exceptional for people. And I decided
the border to be speaking, it's not exceptional or projects
that cars to be connecting people because that's been knowing.
So that's the peple that I hope for. Empathy the
skill I think every person needs to possess. We shouldn't
(30:03):
ignore events happening in our backyard or other places because
we think it has nothing to do with us. This
idea of an ease when it comes to the other
isn't specific to India and Pakistan. Many countries do not
want citizens from other countries that don't look like them.
For example, the treatment of Syrian refugees differed immensely from
(30:25):
Ukrainian refugees. There has been a rapid rise of nationalism
among many countries, including the UK and the United States.
Children are still being separated from their families, Hateful legislation
continues to be created to erase marginalized communities, and there
are large amounts of misinformation when it comes to a
(30:45):
variety of topics like elections and immigration policy. In order
to have empathy, we need to go beyond sixty two
TV clips or breaking news articles and learn about these
issues more deeply. There is no one piece of material
that can encompass an entire major historical event and every
(31:05):
detail that comes with it, whether it is a film, book,
or podcast. As a creator, my goal with this show
is to highlight Partition in relation to memories, lesser known stories,
and it's continuing effects after seventy five years, but there
is so much more to discover. I encourage everyone to
(31:25):
look into the numerous examples mentioned and to continue your
journey with Partition. Read one of the books we quoted from,
look at the Partition archive and watch other experiences, or
visit pretheca's art installations online or in person. You can
find a list of all of our sources linked in
the show notes. Look into your family's history and have
(31:47):
a chat with your relatives. If partition is something that
you didn't know much about, ask yourself what else you
may not know. Share your understanding and realizations with others.
There is no highline on learning or changing our perspectives
when we obtain new information. The simple willingness of wanting
to investigate stories and histories outside of what we already
(32:10):
know is incredibly powerful. I am eternally grateful to you
for listening, thank you for giving me your time and
attention these past ten weeks, and I sincerely hope I'll
be back soon with more underrepresented stories. Until we meet again,
(32:34):
I'm Nahasis and this is Partition. Partition was developed as
a part of the Next Up initiative created by Anna Hosnier,
Joel Monique and Seni A median. Partition is produced by
Anna Hosnier, Tricia Mukerjee and Becca Ramos. It is edited
(32:55):
by Rory Gagan, with the original score composed by Mark Hadley.
The in
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