February 26, 2020 • 53 mins
Samara chats with the Westworld actress about constructing the many voices of an android gone rogue, plus her experience speaking up for the rights of domestic violence survivors, and practicing public vulnerability on stage and online.
Host: Samara Bay
Executive producers: Catherine Burt Cantin & Mark Cantin, Double Vision www.doublevisionprojects.com
Producers: Samara Bay, Sophie Lichterman and the iHeart team
Theme music: Mark Cantin
For info on future Evan + Zane shows: https://evanandzane.com/
For Evan’s testimony and more about the Phoenix Act: https://phoenixact.com/aboutus
For info on Emma Goldman: https://jwa.org/womenofvalor/goldman
For more info on honoring native lands: https://usdac.us/nativeland
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's quote is from Emma Goldman, who was an anarchist
and feminist in like the eighteen hundreds into the early
nineteen hundreds and uh. She is famous for saying something
generally along the lines of if I can't dance, I
don't want to be part of your revolution. And I
think that's good to remember when we are talking about
(00:20):
the voice and how you know, what frees us the
most is when we have a sense of humor and
fun and a little dancing doesn't hurt. Our voice is
a reflection of our life experience, where we've been and
(00:42):
who we've listened to. But we can also own it
and even change it if we want. This is the
podcast that's all about the voice, but it's also all
about power. Who has it, how we get it, how
we sound when we have it. I'm Samara Bay. I'm
a dialect coach for actors in Hollywood on movies like
the upcoming Wonder Woman's sequel and a bunch of other
(01:05):
stuff I can't talk about. And I'm also a speech
coach for entrepreneurs, for politicians, for women everywhere ready to
use their voice to get what they want. Welcome to
permission to speak let's do this today. I have on
Evan rachel Wood. She's been professionally acting since she was
(01:26):
a kid. Her breakout role was in thirteen. She was
also in Across the Universe, the wrestler True Blood, and
now the third season of West World is upon us
in just a few weeks. I wanted to have Evan
on the show because over the last decade, she's come
out as by when it wasn't necessarily convenient to do so.
(01:47):
She's come out as a domestic violence survivor, and she's
found her way into using her story as an advocate
for other survivors in Congress, at the state and the
national level. That is like so much public bravery to navigate,
and she and I got to talk about how she
did that. We also get to talk about her turn
(02:08):
as a Disney queen that's like a strikethrough princess sub
in queen, and the way that she crafted the voices
plural of Dolores Abernathy, as well as her own sort
of surprise experience as a leader behind the scenes. Here
is Evan. So I want to talk first about Dolores. Yeah,
(02:34):
this is season three is like happening a second and
I'm wondering specifically about the voice, because that's what this
podcast is all about. There's a lot going on with
the voice. What's up? What I really want to know
is like how you approached it in terms of the
accent and also relatedly in terms of like being kind
of on script versus going rogue. Yeah. We uh actually
(02:57):
talked a lot about her voice during the pilot, and
we tried a few variations. I think at first, Dolores
and character sounded like an old Hollywood version of a Western.
So it was much more, you know, that kind of
weird affected, affected affected, like um, gone with the wind
(03:19):
kind of thing. And they were like, this is too much,
like you're not a debutante from New York, like, you know,
just do your accent that you know, And so I
kind of went back to my North Carolinian roots a
little bit, but made it a very generic Southern accent,
and we made it much more realistic rather than like
a you know, a siren. And then there's the analysis voice,
(03:41):
which I sort of based off of, you know, when
you type in a sentence into a computer and that
voice kind of reads it back to I wanted her
to have a slight cadence of the computer, but like
a just a little a little s of Stephen Hawking, Yeah,
just a bit of Serrie, a bit of um. The
inflo actions on the words just are slightly off um,
(04:04):
and they the sentences run together a bit more. So
it gives us this really kind of strange rhythm that
she has and it's like there's something slightly unsettling about it. Um.
So we worked a lot on that, and then you know,
season two isn't completely different thing. It was like, we
talk a lot about the mixtures of the characters, so
they'll say, we want your voice to be a bit
(04:25):
of Analysis with a bit of Wyatt, or a bit
of Wyatt with a bit of Dolorus, or a bit
of this new version of Dolorus which you're gonna see
in season three that's gonna start creepy. And so it
is kind of it makes my head spin. Yeah, like
what were you were like in your trailer being like, okay, whoa,
but that sound like a little bit. But what's nice
is once you decide what you're gonna do, you know,
(04:48):
I always view it as you know, I build these
kind of four walls and then I just bounced around
inside those four walls, like okay, here's my parameters and
now play and just feel it out. That reminds me
an act school, like you can't make multiple choices at once.
You have to make one and then a different one
than a different one than a different one unless you're
on what door. But it's it seems like the four
(05:08):
walls thing might be a way to not make yourself
go crazy and try to play you know, three things
on top of each other when really like, you know
this than this, than this would do the same thing,
but then you know what you're doing exactly. And I
also love what you're saying because as somebody you know
who coaches actors when it comes to dialect, stuff like,
what we're really talking about is what story are we telling?
(05:30):
So it sounds like with stuff like the Wyatt and
the analysis that it isn't just like this is the
accent I will switch into, But it's like, who is
this version of her? And when do those versions come out?
On what moment? And when is it important? And when
does it serve the story? Not just be cool if
it came out here and be like no, no, no,
on this line, she's angry, So this would be a
bit more wyat, or this would be a bit more
(05:51):
of the computer because it's more strategic, or you know,
you have to pick and choose. When the choreography of
that is like stunning bananas? Do you go to work
being like just another chilled I mean it's not only
the subject matter the subject Yes, And on top of it,
the subject matter is incredibly heavy and very heavy, So
it's exhausting. It's really exhausting. And I think I underestimated
(06:14):
how difficult it is to play such a contained character
because in her programming, she has no cortisol, she has
no adrenaline. She she's there's a reason why she is
very steady, even in the most heightened, uh you know,
kind of insane shootouts or fights or you know, hyh
(06:34):
drama scenes. She's very level headed. It's because she's literally
programmed to be level headed. Don't act like a human,
don't act like a human. Really hard not to act
like a human. And also there's a camera right there
capturing you know, what we hope will be a human
enough thing that an audience relates to you, So we
do that. Do you think about it when you're not
Flora's I think about the ways we are. I think
(06:56):
about it all the time. I think I'm always thinking
about people and why we are the way that we are.
I'm always going back and I'm one of the actors
that looks at my past performances and I see where
I can improve, and I see, you know, what I
want to do differently next time. And you know, I'm
a perfectionist, so I'm always looking for more things to
explore and learn. Yeah, something that strikes me when I
(07:20):
was thinking about your performance in this and the fact
that you've been doing it for the last few years,
it seems like it also coincides with the Phoenix act stuff,
which is really another So yeah, how did it come
about that you got involved with policy stuff and also
became a voice of it. It just sort of happened.
And I actually credit Westworld a lot for my awakening,
(07:42):
which is what the show is about, and I think,
but it's also what the show is meant to do
to wake us up. And man, did it really work
on me, um, because it was during that first season
where I started to wake up to my own traumas,
and um, I really got to work a lot of
it out on screen, and it showed me a strength
(08:03):
of myself. It gave me permission to be strong in
a way that I just hadn't felt before. And did
you seek out this sort of you know, activism or
did somebody find you or had it been in the
back burner but suddenly you knew what to do with it?
You know, I hadn't even admitted to myself a lot
of things were what they were. Um, I didn't call
(08:23):
myself a domestic violence survivory, you know. I couldn't. I
couldn't say I was raped. I hadn't gone there yet,
which is by the way, part of the point of
the Phoenix Act for anybody listening, the whole idea of it.
And it's California and also ideally nationally, although we're we're
starting there. We're starting and we're starting to get sponsors
on other states. And the idea is not even to
(08:47):
change how domestic violent perpetrators are handled, but actually just
the statute of limitation so that people who have gone
through something and have the time. We're learning so much
about tron the effects it has on our minds and
bodies and the amount of time that it takes to
really process a traumatic event, and there's so much research
(09:08):
to back this up with. The laws still aren't really
reflecting it, and victims are suffering and not able to
seek justice because they've been so hurt they haven't even
begun to face what happened, or identify what happened, or
to feel safe enough. Um, there's a there's a quote
(09:28):
that you said, I did whatever I could to feel safe,
which meant putting time and space between me, him and
the abuse. It's very true, yeah, and really really terrible circumstances.
You need years too sometimes become financially independent. You need
to hide, you need to set up a new life somewhere,
You need to process what happened to you. And it
(09:49):
can sound like three to five years is a long time,
and you think, well, you should know when a crime
has been committed against you immediately, but you don't, especially
when love is andvolved, especially when trauma is involved. Domestic
violence is just such a complicated psychological roller coaster, and
there's virtually no education about it. Um. I mean, that's
(10:10):
what it seems like. You're kind of on like an education.
You can't really, that's what it feels like. You can't
really blame people for not being able to identify something
that that just actually said, just for people if they
want online. Are both of your testimonies, the one of
the state level and the one of the national level,
which are by the way, very different in a year
apart from each other, and I'm very interesting we're going
to get into actually if you don't mind, no technical
(10:32):
of how you prepped for that. Absolutely, but I just
want to say that like one of the experiences that
I had listening to it was that it did feel
like you were educating people on how laws don't reflect humans. Yeah. Absolutely,
there's a lot we don't know about the legal system
(10:52):
or the legal terms. And I will say the press
takes advantage of that a lot in the way they
spin cases. You had this line that you yes, you
this line that you said where you were like, you
know what you had you know conditioned in you, which, boy,
does it sound like the sort of thing all of
us grew up with was that when he hits you,
you leave, and so if you haven't left, then there's
(11:15):
something wrong with you. And then whose fault is that? Exactly? Fault?
That's exactly And that's what a lot of people say,
and uh, you know, depending on who the perpetrator is
Some people go, oh, well, what did you expect? Yeah,
checking up with that guy thinks to happen. What were
you wearing? Yeah, what we're wearing. It's the same thing. Yeah,
it's it's it's it's the same thing. So how did
(11:35):
you prep They were two different experiences. I'm guessing they were. Um. Well,
the first time I testified, somebody approached me about it.
I wasn't planning on, you know, sharing my story with
the world. But given the state of where we were
and you know, our views on this kind of thing,
I thought, oh god, if I don't tell my truth, now,
what the hell am I doing? Like I'm being called
to do it? What was that decision process? Like, was
(11:56):
it a was it that or was it like sitting
with it when I asked myself what I really stand for,
what I really believe? And you know, it was you know,
this is this is what you believed, and this is
your time and you gotta take it. I would argue
about the platform, but it's hard because like when when
ME two came around, and the whole idea of telling
(12:17):
your story with that hashtag was empowering and community building.
It also I was struck. Watching all my friends post that,
I was struck, being like, how dare society say that
you have to go through something else? And then they
finally with a no brainer. I mean, living your values
is what you're saying you did, and that is you know,
deserves all the everything. And also the other way of
(12:39):
living your values would have been to say, like, I'm
just going to protect myself and that's also fine. That
would have been fine too. You know, there were times
when I wasn't ready to say anything because I was
too scared, and I also was open about my decision
not to say anything, and I, you know, let people
know it's not my fault that I'm too scared to
say something. You know, it shouldn't be my responsibility. Hey,
why don't we not also shame victim exactly? Um, but
(13:01):
then we shame them when they do come forward as well.
And I think that's what I was really afraid of,
because there's already so much shame involved that just for
my psyche, I thought, oh god, you know, I'm going
to come forward. I'm gonna say all this stuff happened
to me. And I just thought, what if I get creamed?
You know, what if I get you know, drug again?
Um uh no, um no. That the majority has been
(13:27):
so supportive and was such a relief and meant so much.
People's response was amazing. You know, now it's different because
I think now it's really fun to spend me as
a like angry feminists, and so now every time I
do try to say something that to me, it just
seems education based, like get like every Rachel food goes
(13:48):
on rants or like every Rachel would And I'm like, whoa,
what it feels like farthest you are from your from
just telling your own story. The more that like suddenly
you're a mouthpiece for some you know, nameless You're just
nagging nazi. Yeah that's gone too far. You're nagging nippick
T shirt that says feminist kill joy that I'm really
(14:10):
by the way, it also in rainbow, Oh my god.
But yeah, okay, So I want to talk just super
specifics before we move on from this though, because how
did you write it? Right? I mean, not because I
just want to kind of probe, but because for people
who are listening, who really are thinking about not just
a presentation they have to give. That's like, let me
show my amazing new idea, but rather something that is
(14:31):
serving a larger purposely, as you said in one of
your testimonies, like, this isn't about changing what would happen
with your own case. It's actually about lending your voice
to future people exactly. Yeah, the Phoenix Sack doesn't affect
my case, but I didn't want anybody to have to
go through what I went through. I wanted my evidence
to matter. There were provisions in the Phoenix Act that
we had that got taken out at the last minute,
(14:52):
not by us, which was disappointing, because we had a
clause in there where three or more women came forward
than their sati limitations would temporarily be lifted, so that
would stop serial abusers, which was a big deal if
we had some of those in the US, you know.
But anyway, they gutted that from our bill. Yeah, I'm
still fighting for that. That's another fight. But the prep
(15:13):
for it, you know, I was working with other survivors
at the time, and I let them read it because
you know, I wanted to make it all about the
world and this and that, and they were like, you know,
I know, it's really tempting to say everything you want
to say in this, but remember this is a testimy,
this is your experience, and you just need to tell
the truth about your experience, and that helps. So I
(15:34):
condensed it more to just here are the facts, here's
my truth, you know, and also here are a couple
of things I want to say about how we raised boys,
and you know the our our views on this. But ultimately,
you know, I just poured my heart out and they
only give you two minutes to tell your life's trauma.
You know, there's literally a timer in front of you
(15:54):
that's taking down as you're reliving all the worst moments
of your life. And it was an complete out of
body experience. Were you just like in the moment, what
were you telling yourself? I was so scared. I don't
think I've ever been more scared to do anything in
my life. Like I get choked up just thinking about it,
Like walking into that room, the House of the House
(16:16):
of Representative Room Congress, going to the underground tunnels in
Washington and coming into that room and staring them all
in the face and knowing why I was there. You're
just going, this is not my life. What the funk
am I doing here? Sorry? I don't over a lot
of by w there is no way that this is
real and that I'm actually having to do this right now.
(16:36):
You know, there's nothing about me that's going this is
my story. Yeah, you're going this can't be right. So
what made you like continue walking? Were you just like
keeping yeah, just keep going, just keep walking, keep walking?
And I just took a deep breath and did it,
you know. But I also, Um, I devour like ted
talks and speeches, and I'm always moved. I a good speech,
(17:02):
you know that flows and you know, tells a story,
reveals itself in the right way, leads you to this
kind of amazing conclusion that's also a little open ended,
so that you get to, you know, have your own
opinions about it. I devour those all the time, and
so I feel like I maybe have an understanding of
how they work, and I think I've been pretty good
(17:22):
at being able to give them. Um, I'm a mess
in my everyday life in normal conversation, I'm super awkward.
But if I can write it down, I'm serious. If
I can write it down and be able to look
at it and revise it, I can get to a
really good place with my words. But I usually fumble.
One of my favorite moments from your concert that I
(17:43):
got to see this weekend is a moment when you
said on stage, if you're a California resident, you have
more rights now. Yes, And it was like that version
of you that has gone through that that isn't the
same girl who is in that no space either at
the time of you know, everything that was happening to
and also at the time of having to relive it.
(18:03):
But like what you um the reward, the reward was great. Um.
I remember the second time I testified, I thought, well,
it'll be easier this time because I've done it once. Boy,
was I wrong to me that one felt from the
outside watching the one that was the closer. Yeah, Well,
the first one was about a very specific law and
(18:25):
the second one was really, hey, this is my story
and this is why this law was important, And it
was just they were different angles, same topics, but yes,
it was the goal was different, so what I decided
to tell changed And yeah, the second one was very difficult,
and there was also so much writing on it. That
(18:46):
was our first vote, and so we really didn't know
what was going to happen. It was either going to
live or die on our testimonies. I also wonder there's
like a stereotype about this, so tell me if it
feels true or not. But when you're acting, and probably
when you're singing, there is a persona that you can
put on that feels safer. Yeah. Yeah, there's a meditative space.
(19:09):
It's the flow state. You know. I'm big into the flow.
That's always my goal. If I can't remember doing half
of my shows, then that's a great sign to me
because that means I was just in a flow state.
I was just in it, you know, I wasn't thinking.
And same thing with scenes. You know if I black
out during a scene, and that means I was just
completely in it. Well, now it sounds like you actually
(19:30):
had some of that experience then when you were doing
the congressional stuff too, So you just you go into
blackouts every once in a while. And yes, it shouldn't
be worried. It's true though, it's a I do. It's
a meditative place. What does it feel like on stage
when you're singing? How is it as a communication. It's
like opening the doors to my heart and you know,
(19:52):
like a flock of birds flying out. That's what it
feels like. I just love it. I know it sounds
so cheesy, but it's true. It's like that's where I
feel the most expanded, because again, I feel like sometimes
language can be limiting, but music is so complicated and nuanced,
and like one little note or inflection of a word
(20:13):
can change the whole meaning. Um, you know, and sometimes
you don't even need words, you just need sounds and
you understand. So I don't know, I just feel like
also the I'm talking specifically about the Evan and Zane
show for people who are listening, which is so delightful
and as you said when I was there, it's like
a cover band but not it's like experience. Yeah, and
(20:37):
just like such top notch you know, performance and talent
and creativity and your guys band part of the band
are also just struck me. When I was thinking about
interviewing you that it's a real version of you, it's not.
I mean, I was thinking about the idea of an
alter ego, and maybe you think about that too, but
it also feels like the dream with the real alter
ego is it's not somebody who isn't you? The heightened
(20:58):
version of you? Yeah, it's like that you with who
who's standing in her power. One might say, yeah, standing
in your light, taking your space, Yeah, which is weirdly
hard for me to do. And I'm usually I'm always
nervous when I do those shows, by the way, like
the first two songs, I'm always shaking, and it's just
because I care so much and I love the songs
and I just want to do them justice, and I
(21:19):
get really nervous. You also have a room full of
people who are there because they already get you exactly,
and you know, our audience matters. You know, a more
hostile audience obviously gets us in our head more. But
sometimes the audience that knows you're good makes me get
in my head, you know, because when you're expectations, somebody
(21:40):
do with that. You're just like, expectations make me get
in my head more than anything, honestly. I mean, there's
a perfectionism streak is Yeah, it is hard. Yeah, it's hard.
It makes you better and also, you know, it's like
an endless conversation. I find for this podcast, there's an
endless conversation with myself of the same thing I tell
my client ants, which is authentic is better than articulate,
(22:05):
Like let's just say something that feels real. Um, we're
going to take a quick break. And so we were
talking about singing. Um, I can't not mention queen. Oh yeah,
(22:26):
you've become a Disney princess, Disney queen. I'm so sorry,
Disney queen. A promotion A promotion? Yeah really wild? Um, Actually,
now that I think about it, there aren't a lot
of Disney queens that are good characters. No, they're usually
quite evil and get killed off. They always get I
mean yeah, I mean I said, the only thing as
cool as being a Disney princess is being a Disney
(22:47):
mom that dies, because I mean one thing told me
when doesn't die. No, it's actually the same with Shakespeare,
like lots of missing moms. Yeah, it's a it's a
how was that experience a wild? What's crazy is we
had just done it an Evan and Zane show that
was a Disney theme and I got the call and
(23:08):
I didn't get to read the script or anything. We
got the breakdown of the character and I went, I
know this, I know what to do. I know And
I listened to Dina and Kristen Bell and um, I thought, okay,
if I can incorporate some of their sounds into her,
but make it but slightly age it a bit and
make it a little you know, more maternal. You know,
(23:29):
then you'll go, oh, that's on a Nelson's mom, like
I can hear it. And so that's what I tried
to do with the audition and it worked. And it's
a lullaby, so as somebody who's seen you on stage, like,
really belt it doesn't give you that. No, it was
much harder to sing quietly. Actually, when I first got
into do the first recording, I came in and I'm
(23:51):
fresh off the boat doing Evan and Zane like LOUNGI,
you know, smokey shows. And they were like, Okay, first
of all, we gotta whatever you're doing, we gotta stop.
And I was like, what, Like, we gotta get you
way up into the front of your face, you know,
you're you're down here, like up here, and I was like,
right right, Disney, right, And so that was kind of
(24:12):
our first so interesting. I love it. Yeah, yeah, but yeah,
there's a very specific placement for Disney. I feel like, um,
it almost feels like what they wanted was like untouched
by well, certainly untouched by the modern world, but even
just untouched by the world, because a lot of our
voice lowering stuff happens when we're like, oh, you don't
take me seriously up high, Well, then let me find
(24:32):
something right. But it was to strip that away and
just say, what if we lived in this fantasy world
where that's not necessary. Exactly exactly, and I read somewhere
that you've sung this song to your child. I did. Yeah.
When I went to audition. I told him I was
going to audition for a Disney movie and he said,
I hope they clapped for you. And then I went
in and a little bit of a British accent, a
(24:54):
little yeah when he says certain words. His father's British,
so every now and he's like, can I chocolate? And
I'm like, oh, very cute, and his British accent when
he'll he'll turn it on and start doing characters, and
I'm like, yes, that is my song. Um. Anyway, when
I went in into the audition, and after I sang,
they did clap, and so I came home I went,
(25:15):
guess what the clap? But then I didn't hear anything
back for a couple of months, and I just got
the call randomly on the day that I was going
to Disneyland. So the yeah, it was framed by Disney experiences.
That's delightful. What was like, um, I cried. I mean
(25:36):
it was like a dream come true. I had learned.
Disney taught me how to sing, you know, and I
used to I used to get the CDs when they
came out, but they were in that long remember West
to get CDs came in that long packaging, and it
was like the size of a plank of wood. And
I had beating the Beast, a little Mermaid and all
those things that we could like see them in the
files right yeah, in the old record file yeah yeah,
(25:58):
and had the track listening. So I used to act
them out at home a lot um and it was
my dream. It was like you have professional singing training,
I had a bit. I started in musical theater and
so the first thing I learned was to use my voice.
First thing I did was go into a you know,
groups of people and learn how to sing in a choir.
And I was originally a soprano um and then taught
(26:21):
myself how to do all too. And then you know,
and then I hung out in lounges and then then
I got turned onto p J. Harvey and like Peggy Lee,
and I was like, I wanna learn how to do this, um.
But yeah, so first it was you know, vocal exercises
and you know, learning how to project to the back
row and learning how to take care of your voice,
but to be able to sing every night and voices
(26:42):
like tips and that that come to mind. Well, I
I did get vocal notes once and it was so
depressing because singing is like my heart and I couldn't
do it because I had notes, and it was like
so depressing. I really fell the doves. All the doves started, Yeah,
they were their wings were clipped. It was terrible, and
so I had to go to speech therapy. And that's
(27:04):
when I realized that I had kind of done what
you were talking about. Throughout the years, my voice had
progressed with gutten lower and like my normal speaking voice
was like cutting down here. And she was like, if
you're going to be a singer, you cannot do that.
You have to hold yourself to a higher set of standards.
And so she taught me how to, you know, in
my everyday life, speak more a pure to give my
and I have to say exact same experience in my
(27:25):
mid twenties, and and part of the psychological half of
that was hearing that voice back, either like in recordings
or in my own head and just having to like
tell myself that person does not sound dumb. Yes, yeah, yeah,
which is like patriarchy. Great, yeah, great, it turns out
I've picked up all the lessons that I shouldn't have.
(27:47):
It's still hard when I need to rest my voice
and I have to speak really high. I don't. It doesn't.
I think that is where it comes from. You just think, oh,
people are going to think of But also when you do,
like how many songs that you do two nights together,
forty something for me, you know, that's a marathon a lot.
It's a lot. I don't mean that's been a question.
(28:09):
I'm literally just pointing out like it is. But I do,
I do. I do vocal warm ups. I still have
a woman that I go to every now and then
because it's I think your voice is just one of
those things that's always changing, and you know, there's always
room for improvement, or you don't use it for a
while and then you gotta you know, work the muscles
up and go back to what are those good ones again? Yeah,
(28:31):
sometimes I go, you know, saying at the top of
my lungs and places without warming up and really regret it.
That's a terrible idea. Please don't do that. Only the
older we get, the more our buddy is not forgiving.
It's learned my lesson. It's so not a good idea.
Now people would be like, hey, can you come and
like sing at this party I'm doing And I'm sure
on my way there. I'm like, I don't even care
(28:54):
about warming up in front of people anymore. Yeah, that's right.
They're like, what are you doing. I'm like, I'm saving
my vo brace is what I'm doing. Um, I have
a hard hitting journalistic question from my four and a
half year old, which, unfortunately, as I did research for you,
I already got the answer for us. So now it's
totally disingenuous. But I love that when I was thinking
about interviewing you, I remember that when we saw Frozen
to my child and I afterwards we had such a
(29:17):
like philosophical conversation about who the voice was. She continues
to hear and he's like, and this is my favorite part.
He's like, it's obviously the mom yeah, and it turns
out you did not do the That is Aurora, but
it is also um young Queena Douna, So it is Um.
(29:38):
I think in the film they say when the forest,
you know, when the spell goes over the forest and
closes everybody in. They said, some people say that you
could hear the Fifth Spirit call out on that day,
but it was actually Queena Douna calling out when she
was saving Prince agnar Um. So I think it's a
mixture of Young Queen Douna and Aurora. And I want
(29:59):
to say, there's like a fever dream that I have
of me doing it once, but I don't remember if
I did or not. I bet to see if. But
I think doing different people doing that. Yeah, it's a
bunch of different. I just love the idea that my
son would think that it was the mom. I love
that because clearly it should it kind of is. It
(30:19):
is the past. It is her mom from the past. Um.
I mean that's that's brilliant about that. Lower by I
mean the fact that all of the secrets are hidden
in that. It's I mean storytelling wise, it's great. Wow
do they do it so? West World? What is it like?
What is the like additional sort of leadership responsibility that
you feel. It was a new thing for me. I
(30:40):
had never um been at the helm of something quite
like that, and I didn't know what my place really
was at first until there were moments where I would
you know, this just happens on all sets. You're like,
oh man, those extras really need water, it's really hot.
Or I don't really like the way that person speaking
(31:01):
in this person, or I don't know, I feel like
we should rehearse first and maybe block later, you know,
And there's all these things and I started to voice
these things to the producers and they were like, dude,
you gotta just say this. And I was like, what
are you talking about? And they were like, you're number
one on the call sheet, like we need you to
be the one to say these things. And I thought, oh, right,
like that is this is a new thing. So it
(31:24):
was like I had permission suddenly to you know, also
kind of be mother hand a little bit, um yeah,
and say things that other people couldn't say, and speak
up for people that may be too afraid to say.
It seems almost like this is a pattern in your life. Yes,
I mean does it? Does it? It also probably puts
(31:45):
I don't know, actually I shouldn't say that. Does it
put you into inconvenient positions because it seems like when
you're the number one on the show, not necessarily because
people are really really conditioned to be like, what she needs,
she gets. Yeah, I am almost too easy to work
with sometimes, probably because of being a kid actor. You
just kind of you're like, oh, should I say something.
(32:08):
I'm used to be like whatever you want me to do,
especially as a woman, you don't want to come across
as difficult and literally that words ute unquote ask for
what you need that And definitely women are held to
a much higher standard than men on sets when they
demand for things that they need and when a man
does it or when you know, I've been on sets
where you know, actors start wrecking the set because they
(32:30):
can't remember their lines, you know, and I don't hear
anybody talking smack about them. Afterwards they're like, oh, man,
that was awesome, Tod just see that. They're so brilliant
and it's like a fun story. But if a woman
did that, they'd be like, bitch, like wreck the set,
like there's so much so so there is there is
(32:50):
a there is a double standard there for sure that
I can definitely still feel. But luckily West World is
an incredible set and they have a massive amount of
respect for the women that work on the show. In
season three, half of the season is directed by women,
including the finale, so they've done a great job at
ushering in a lot of female directors. Does it feel
(33:11):
different working with a female director? Yeah, yeah, I mean
obviously not only under the same I don't need to
make it a yeah. Um, you know, sometimes it is
and sometimes it isn't. But you know, I said yes,
but honestly, no, there isn't really that much of a difference.
I think only so that because one of them was
specifically really good about working with the actors and speaking
our language. But I don't think that's because she was
(33:31):
a woman. Um to me, it was an actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
To me, it feels like sometimes it isn't about the
fact that the director is a woman as much as
it's that like when a woman is in charge of
the show, even just for that you know, week and
a half or whatever that you're shooting that episode, it
changes about the power dynamic in the entire hundred fifty
person crew and it's nice. I mean also sometimes that's
(33:56):
when I've noticed being on sets that like some of
the do choose to be louder about the things they
don't like about women who demand things. So sometimes ship
comes out of the closet when there's a woman in charge.
But overall, it also is like we're teaching people that
this is what female leadership is. You know, get used
(34:16):
to it and it's okay. You don't have to feel
like your mom is telling you to clean your room,
which I feel like is a lot of the vibe
you get sometimes like I'm not telling you to pick
your shoes up off the floor. I just need you
to move the flag. Everybody, everybody, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
mean it's a serious, it's a serious, it's a conversation,
it's a thing. But you know it's also yeah, we're
(34:37):
all learning, and we're all learning together, and you know,
we've all been the product of major brainwashing that we're
all trying to undo and you know, some of us more,
more trying more than others. Yeah, you know, but hopefully
we'll get there. Um do you do you have sort
of a process for choosing projects, Especially the older you
get in the more you're actually I don't know, it's
(34:58):
not an older you get things. You've been doing this
your whole life. In terms of like trying to do
stuff that feels right, I think that's really what is.
I just follow my gut, um, and I don't. I
don't let the fear of I have to do something, um,
you know, make me do something that I don't want
to do, because I just know by now if my
heart's not in it, and I'm not going to be
very good and I'm gonna be miserable, and it's just
(35:19):
I'm gonna have time away from my son, and you know,
it's just the thing I don't want to do. But UM,
are you thinking about directing or producing? Well, you know,
I've directed a couple of music videos. I did shoot
a short film that I wrote with Leah Thompson, UM,
which I'm still in the process of doing the special
effects for. Um. Are you adding hoverboards? Right? Yeah? With
(35:42):
the DeLorean, Um, that was such a great moment. I
loved every minute of it. But um, she was actually
the first actor that I ever heard speak words that
I wrote and it was so cool to watch. Um,
somebody that really knew what they were doing. Say something
that you wrote and was going of works, it's working,
exactually working. Yes, So I did direct that I and
(36:05):
I like it. I did pitch a film that I
wrote for a couple of years, which actually is no
time at all when you're pitching a film, but so
depressing because honestly, I had an all female cast with
me and Jenny Slate and Cynthia Riva who just got
dominated for an Oscar and Alison pill Like, what an
awesome cast. No one would give us money to make
(36:26):
the movie. Anybody listening is so and we were like, okay,
yayn going to blow up? But did nobody listened to us? Um?
But that experience was kind of so discouraging that I
was like, I am not ready to do this right now.
Like on top of my history and the Feenix Act
and everything else, I was like, I can't be in
(36:46):
another pitch room that is so sexist and there are
no people of coloring here, and there are no women
in these rooms, and I am I just couldn't. I
didn't have the stomach for it. Maybe one day I will.
But I actually spoke to Ron Howard about it, who
I worked with, and I ran into him and I
was like, oh, you know, I'm I'm thinking about directing.
And I said, Ron, how do you do this? How
(37:06):
do you work with these people? And He's like, you
gotta really want to do it, And I thought, maybe,
I you may need to wait until it's this uncontrollable
urge that I can't stifle anymore. Boy. I mean, I
hear that, and I also think, like clearly, maybe yes,
you really need to want to do it, but also
you really need to be game for the hustle. And
(37:28):
I don't think you're hustle and Ron's hustle are the same,
so they're not No, they're not. Um, and I just
don't think I was game for the hustle right now. Man,
I need a second. I just couldn't do it. Yeah.
I accepted defeat on that one for now. Um, but
that's not to say later on in life I wouldn't
really love to do it. I have a few quick questions. One,
do you have a mom voice? Yeah? And it hears
(37:52):
me because it's my mom's voice, you know, you know
those moments were like oh my god, that is my mom. Um.
It depends, you know, there's like sweet mom voice and
then there's like Okay, seriously, I've said this five times.
You gotta go do this right now. I feel very
like I feel like my acting background really comes out
with my kid, not necessarily because I'm acting differently than
(38:13):
I'm feeling, but that I'm like, I know how to
change my voice to get what I want well, And
they teach you that in parenting class. You know, to
when you want them to listen to you in a
certain way, to lower the register of your voice, not
necessarily get louder, but it's a register thing that they
say actually works. Yeah, it's that's so weird that like
going like I can't learner to listen to me. It
(38:33):
doesn't work. It's very true. Yeah, yeah, interesting. Maybe I
should have a parenting expert on to talk about that. Yeah,
that's a that's a I mean, I would argue that
because the whole lowering voice thing is there, it's so
fraught for women especially, but that the other half of it,
besides just you know, lower your voice to the extent
(38:54):
that you get vocal nodules, the other half of it
is that um a uh, the more stressed we get
the moment, the more adrenaline hits our vocal cords. Et
center the more we go up, so some of that
is actually just pretending to sound calm. Yeah, well that's
so interesting, right interesting. Then you know kids pick that
shut up yeah, and they're like, Okay, maybe I should
(39:15):
be calm now. My next question is, let's talked to
us for a second about how you use social media,
because I know you were talking early about your platform,
and it really strikes me for somebody like you who's
really embraced social media in certain ways, I mean you're
on Twitter a lot, it really is this double edged sword.
There is an opportunity to be seen and to you know,
(39:39):
foment movements whatever, to bring people together in a way
that is not should not be denied when we're talking
about the ills of social media, and also you're using
your platform in a way that also just fully exposes yourself. Absolutely. Yeah.
I like using it as a conversation starter and as
an educational tool. And if you follow me, you know,
(40:02):
I don't really like competition or getting into fights with people.
I like listening and learning, and if there is a
blind spot that I've had, I'm very open to hearing
what that is. If somebody is willing to have an
honest conversation with me about it and not just yell
at me. You know, I'm like I was saying, when
things that I say get really taken out of context
(40:24):
and turned into this uh every riginal with attack on
so and so, you know, when really I'm just I'm
trying to have a conversation. And that's something that the
media does in a farm tweets um, you know, and
also legalize them, and it's also weaponized against us. Sure.
The issue with social media is it doesn't wait for
(40:45):
anybody either. It's the wild West. It's a public form
where everything happens in real time, and so you have
to know that when you're stepping into that space, you know,
and you're not always going to like the things that
you want to hear. But I always hope that we
strive to, you know, be people that we'll listen to
one another, you know, to voice our concerns when we're hurt.
(41:05):
You know. It's it's when my safety comes into question
where I think we've got to mentally prepare yourself for
like when you're going to be sort of hopping. Sometimes
I did in the world. Sometimes I don't work and
for play, absolutely, I mean I have had to take
a lot of breaks from it recently, you know, even before,
you know, a lot of controversy went down, mainly just
because it wasn't healthy for me. And I also think
(41:27):
it's a false reality. There's a lot on Twitter that's
not even real, and it's there to keep us fighting
and in conflict. And you know, we purposely shake the
jar ants or not we but you know, the media,
but um or the Russians or you know, you know
what I mean. Yeah, there's there's so many different influences
on that platform, um, and one day we'll it'll be
(41:50):
studied and we'll be able to see it all for
what it is and look at it and go, oh, ship,
this wasn't even real. But and then what would we do?
Literally then what we do? Because we probably still just
keep using it? So and we do and I do, um,
you know, but I have deleted the app off of
my phone just so I can't readily just kind of click,
you know anytime I'm bored to go into it, because
it was it was bad for my psyche, and I
(42:12):
do mentally prepare sometimes, but honestly, sometimes I don't think
I'm saying anything that controversial, and it turns into something
and I just feel like I'm being very honest. And
so you know, those are moments when you know, my
eyes and ears are open and I and I want
to learn. But again, you know, it's when my safety
comes into into in with good faith and then like
(42:32):
the internet is like, we're not going to show it
back to you. Yeah, yeah, you should die a horrible death.
Um that I don't agree with. I will always talk
about a controversial point, do you know what I mean? Um?
So you know, I always listen to people if if
they have something to say, you know, and I'm and
I'll never say, you know, I'm always right about anything
because I'm not and I'm not perfect, you know. But
(42:55):
I can't hear you if you're threatening my life, I can't.
We can't actually get anywhere. Where are the parenting classes
for the you know, for the bullies online? Oh? I
don't know. You know, there's bullies online, there's bully rags everywhere.
We're very anti bullying, but you know, we're still fine
with all of the tabloids being all of our grocery
stores and drug stores at eye level with our kids.
(43:16):
You know. So what do you think those are those
are just bullying. That's just that's just printed bullying. It's
been there forever. So it's the same thing. You know,
gonna we're gonna take a quick brick and we're gonna
come back and find out whose voice you have picked
to share. I guess so I have hut up somebody
(43:44):
that Evan has chosen for us to listen to her
voice and talk about it a little bit. First, I
just want to ask you, Evan, who have you I
have picked Renee Brown, who are not familiar a has
a terrific voice. I feel like it's she. I feel
like everyone is familiar with her now, I think so.
But I deliberately picked a bit from her early ted
(44:06):
talk to Numero. You know, yes, but yes, you were saying,
she's a grateful she has a fantastic voice, and she
uses it very well. Yeah, I think so too. She's
very relatable but very profound, and she's got that little
Southern twang. It's great. I mean, that's truly all the stuff,
and it's and like leveraging that instead of hiding behind that,
which you know, her whole thing is about shame and vulnerability,
so not hiding behind it is a good thing. The
(44:28):
idea with these little segments where we talk about this
stuff is that often when we think about women's voices,
it's hard to call to mind the voices of the
women in our lives that we admire. And we might
think of our mom or we might think of, you know,
the one or two women who have been lauded to
such an extent, the Oprah's of the world, and those
people deserve to get attention as well. But the reality
(44:52):
is there are so many women who are killing it.
And I don't even necessarily want to talk about women only.
This is people who are not the archetype of power
that we've come to, you know, here when we hear
the straight white man, probably rich, probably stoic, or like
not revealing emotion in the way that seems natural to us,
(45:14):
and we're like, if we're not that, then we're not
worthy of power. And that's the you know, that's the
assumption I want to break. Yeah, the vision of power
is changing. The vision of power is changing, and we
get to use this time to like listen to some
of the people who are really doing it so that
they can come to mind, so that we can be like, oh,
I think I'm this type, or we can be like
(45:35):
I am a new type. Yeah anyway, Okay, So here's
a little bit of brine that we just listen to
real fast. I hate vulnerability, and so I thought, this
is my chance to beat it back with my marriage
ring stick. I'm going in, I'm going to figure this
stuff out. I'm going to spend a year. I'm gonna
totally deconstruct shame. I'm gonna understand how vulnerability works, and
(45:56):
I'm going to outsmart it. So I was ready, and
I was really excited, as you know, it's not gonna
turn out well. Um, I mean I love that moment
at the end because it's so I don't think she
was planning on saying that. If you look back and
look at it, I think she was really planning on
just moving ahead. And then something that I want to
point out is she read she read the room, and
(46:19):
she was like, ah, I set that up in a
way where if I just move on now, I'm going
to seem inauthentic. And there's this huge laugh that happens
after that moment of this release. Because one of the
biggest things that we need to do when we're, you know,
in front of an audience is like acknowledge what's really happening. Yes, yes,
which is scary. Read the energy energy, and also read
(46:41):
if you've made a mistake or whatever. Absolutely, absolutely you
can't just plan on what you're going to do. One
of the best things I ever learned in acting class
I learned with a couch ball, and and it was
how my acting coach proved to us you cannot just
practice how you're going to do it. And he was like, okay,
stand up, throws me the ball. I catch it. He goes, great,
Now throw it back and now catch it in the
(47:02):
exact same way that you caught it the first time
in my hands in the same place, And of course
he throws it right and I can't catch it. And
he's like, yeah, you have no idea how I'm gonna
throw the ball, so you cannot plan for those I
don't do that yea, which is also really scary, both
of your an actor and also if you're you know,
public speaking, but if something goes a little awry. I
(47:23):
remember I used to coach hosts who were working on
transitioning from being sort of expert in their real lives
to doing the media version of that. On television, so
they didn't necessarily have the same acting background that we might.
And I really had to teach them that those moments
that you sunk up and then acknowledge the funk up
is when the audience falls in love with you. It's true,
(47:43):
and trying pretend that a moment that just happened didn't
is a recipe for disaster, or at least for disconnection.
And the whole point is we want to connect authentic
with our audience and other things about her that are
working so well, you know, I think part of the
reason that she's connected with people as is what you said,
there's a Southern nous to her. She's not hiding that.
She's got a sort of a folksy energy. She has
(48:05):
this little litany in this where she says, I'm gonna
do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this.
But she's an academic, so she could very well have
said I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this,
I'm going to do this. And it's these tiny like
opportunities we give ourselves when we're on stage to not
be formal. Yes, like talk about permission to speak, you
have permission to sound like the same person that you
would have sounded like off stage. And by the way,
(48:29):
the further away our authentic voice is from that kind
of archetype of power, the heart of that is and
the more it is a calculation. And I'm not saying
one size fits all, but i am saying that I'm
interested in pushing those boundaries a little bit because we
had to teach people what power sounds like we do
and teach people how to speak to people in a
way that they'll be heard. Yeah, yeah, it's a big thing.
(48:50):
I know. There's also this whole like are you working
within the system or or just like burning the system down?
So there is a little bit of that sense of like,
do what you have to do to negotiate until you have,
for example, the power to be on a stage, whether
it's attach or not, knowledge to back at um. But
then once you're there, you know, just like you when
(49:11):
you're the lead on a show, you know, how do
we leverage the new power we have to normalize things
that have not been normalized until now. And yes, I
do want to circle back on what you just said,
because authority, it is hard to hear a woman's voice
and be like she's an authority figure, and that's a
controversial sounding thing. I didn't like the way it sounded
coming out of my mouth. But there's so much to
(49:31):
back that up. But I will there's actually science. There
is a she you know, has a PhD and thus
is an authority figure, but be she can also teach
us a little bit about how for those those who
don't have PhDs, we can sort of stand in our
authoritative power on the things that we do know about
because we've had life experiences. I'm part of what was
(49:53):
so beautiful. I think we're wrapping up a part of
what was so beautiful about the advice that you were
given when you had to do the hard stuff in
front of Congress was that stories are so much more
powerful than we realize, and women have been conditioned to
not tell them. Partly because maybe we don't have a
(50:13):
hero's journey that feels like it fits us as much.
And there's an amazing Britt Marlin article that just came
out of wonderful totally and so like truth telling, but
also partly because you know, in the moment, I've had guests,
as I've been doing, you know, prep interviews leading up
to this I've had guests who I'm obviously asking them
for the story of the time when and they're obviously
on my podcast because they're an expert, or they're doing
(50:36):
something brilliantly with their lives, and they dodge it and
it's like, God, that's all of us. Yeah, it's a
weird saying. That's really and yeah, and we get to
sit in it and work our bravery muscle. And I mean,
I just want it's so important. Like bravery is not.
My favorite quote is bravery is not the absence of fear.
(50:57):
It's being afraid in doing it anyway. And I'm never
not afraid when I'm using my voice or being vulnerable
or singing or testifying. But I don't know somehow I
do it anyway. I want to have you on because
I feel like you work that bravery muscle, like you
just work it. It's not like I came in strong.
It's like I worked it. Yeah, yeah, and slowly too.
(51:18):
It didn't happen overnight. I did. And I think Burnee
Brown speaks about this actually, She's like, be a little
brave here, a little brave here, and a little brave here,
and you kind of work your way up to these
big moments, you know, and I think I've I've slowly
been doing that. It didn't just happen, you know, it did.
It took took time to work the muscle. Yeah, that's
good for all of us. Like incremental, incremental wins. Yeah,
(51:39):
and don't and you'll be easy on yourself if you're
not ready, you know this, it's okay. And also like
surround yourself with people who are love you and conditionally. Yeah. Absolutely,
that's so important, my god, because shame is one of
the greatest weapons against us, you know, and people famously
throughout history, people that had conflicting ideas or ideas that
(52:01):
we're ahead of their time, got really beaten yea, emotionally,
sometimes physically burned at burned at the steak, you know,
ostracized from society. Um, I want to end also burn
a brown in a different part of that says, in
order for connection to happen, we have to be seen,
really seen, and that is you know what we're working
on with our voice as well. Yeah, and the voice
(52:22):
is a huge part of that. Um. Evan, thanks for
coming in. Oh my god, so fun. Thank you for
having Thank you to Evan for coming in. You can
find out more about her in the show notes or
on our website Permission to Speak pod dot com. Also,
you can go to Permission to Speak pod dot com
if you have any awesome quotes you'd like me to
(52:43):
read at the top of the episodes, and if you
have any questions, I will do and ask me anything
episode from time to time, and I want to know
what is getting in the way of your voice. You
can also send d M s or voice messages to
our Instagram at Permission to Speak Pod, where we're posting
a bunch of content and please join the community. Thanks
(53:05):
as well to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I
Heeart Radio, to Megan Read, to my family and cohort,
and to all of you. We're recording this podcast in
the I Heart Radio studios in Hollywood on land that
used to belong to the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you
can visit U S d A C dot us to
learn more about honoring native land. Permission to Speak is
(53:26):
a production of I Heart Radio and Double Vision Executive
produced by Katherine Burke Canton and Mark Canton. For more
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app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Today's quote is from Emma Goldman, who was an anarchist
and feminist in like the eighteen hundreds into the early
nineteen hundreds and uh. She is famous for saying something
generally along the lines of if I can't dance, I
don't want to be part of your revolution. And I
think that's good to remember when we are talking about
(00:20):
the voice and how you know, what frees us the
most is when we have a sense of humor and
fun and a little dancing doesn't hurt. Our voice is
a reflection of our life experience, where we've been and
(00:42):
who we've listened to. But we can also own it
and even change it if we want. This is the
podcast that's all about the voice, but it's also all
about power. Who has it, how we get it, how
we sound when we have it. I'm Samara Bay. I'm
a dialect coach for actors in Hollywood on movies like
the upcoming Wonder Woman's sequel and a bunch of other
(01:05):
stuff I can't talk about. And I'm also a speech
coach for entrepreneurs, for politicians, for women everywhere ready to
use their voice to get what they want. Welcome to
permission to speak let's do this today. I have on
Evan rachel Wood. She's been professionally acting since she was
(01:26):
a kid. Her breakout role was in thirteen. She was
also in Across the Universe, the wrestler True Blood, and
now the third season of West World is upon us
in just a few weeks. I wanted to have Evan
on the show because over the last decade, she's come
out as by when it wasn't necessarily convenient to do so.
(01:47):
She's come out as a domestic violence survivor, and she's
found her way into using her story as an advocate
for other survivors in Congress, at the state and the
national level. That is like so much public bravery to navigate,
and she and I got to talk about how she
did that. We also get to talk about her turn
(02:08):
as a Disney queen that's like a strikethrough princess sub
in queen, and the way that she crafted the voices
plural of Dolores Abernathy, as well as her own sort
of surprise experience as a leader behind the scenes. Here
is Evan. So I want to talk first about Dolores. Yeah,
(02:34):
this is season three is like happening a second and
I'm wondering specifically about the voice, because that's what this
podcast is all about. There's a lot going on with
the voice. What's up? What I really want to know
is like how you approached it in terms of the
accent and also relatedly in terms of like being kind
of on script versus going rogue. Yeah. We uh actually
(02:57):
talked a lot about her voice during the pilot, and
we tried a few variations. I think at first, Dolores
and character sounded like an old Hollywood version of a Western.
So it was much more, you know, that kind of
weird affected, affected affected, like um, gone with the wind
(03:19):
kind of thing. And they were like, this is too much,
like you're not a debutante from New York, like, you know,
just do your accent that you know, And so I
kind of went back to my North Carolinian roots a
little bit, but made it a very generic Southern accent,
and we made it much more realistic rather than like
a you know, a siren. And then there's the analysis voice,
(03:41):
which I sort of based off of, you know, when
you type in a sentence into a computer and that
voice kind of reads it back to I wanted her
to have a slight cadence of the computer, but like
a just a little a little s of Stephen Hawking, Yeah,
just a bit of Serrie, a bit of um. The
inflo actions on the words just are slightly off um,
(04:04):
and they the sentences run together a bit more. So
it gives us this really kind of strange rhythm that
she has and it's like there's something slightly unsettling about it. Um.
So we worked a lot on that, and then you know,
season two isn't completely different thing. It was like, we
talk a lot about the mixtures of the characters, so
they'll say, we want your voice to be a bit
(04:25):
of Analysis with a bit of Wyatt, or a bit
of Wyatt with a bit of Dolorus, or a bit
of this new version of Dolorus which you're gonna see
in season three that's gonna start creepy. And so it
is kind of it makes my head spin. Yeah, like
what were you were like in your trailer being like, okay, whoa,
but that sound like a little bit. But what's nice
is once you decide what you're gonna do, you know,
(04:48):
I always view it as you know, I build these
kind of four walls and then I just bounced around
inside those four walls, like okay, here's my parameters and
now play and just feel it out. That reminds me
an act school, like you can't make multiple choices at once.
You have to make one and then a different one
than a different one than a different one unless you're
on what door. But it's it seems like the four
(05:08):
walls thing might be a way to not make yourself
go crazy and try to play you know, three things
on top of each other when really like, you know
this than this, than this would do the same thing,
but then you know what you're doing exactly. And I
also love what you're saying because as somebody you know
who coaches actors when it comes to dialect, stuff like,
what we're really talking about is what story are we telling?
(05:30):
So it sounds like with stuff like the Wyatt and
the analysis that it isn't just like this is the
accent I will switch into, But it's like, who is
this version of her? And when do those versions come out?
On what moment? And when is it important? And when
does it serve the story? Not just be cool if
it came out here and be like no, no, no,
on this line, she's angry, So this would be a
bit more wyat, or this would be a bit more
(05:51):
of the computer because it's more strategic, or you know,
you have to pick and choose. When the choreography of
that is like stunning bananas? Do you go to work
being like just another chilled I mean it's not only
the subject matter the subject Yes, And on top of it,
the subject matter is incredibly heavy and very heavy, So
it's exhausting. It's really exhausting. And I think I underestimated
(06:14):
how difficult it is to play such a contained character
because in her programming, she has no cortisol, she has
no adrenaline. She she's there's a reason why she is
very steady, even in the most heightened, uh you know,
kind of insane shootouts or fights or you know, hyh
(06:34):
drama scenes. She's very level headed. It's because she's literally
programmed to be level headed. Don't act like a human,
don't act like a human. Really hard not to act
like a human. And also there's a camera right there
capturing you know, what we hope will be a human
enough thing that an audience relates to you, So we
do that. Do you think about it when you're not
Flora's I think about the ways we are. I think
(06:56):
about it all the time. I think I'm always thinking
about people and why we are the way that we are.
I'm always going back and I'm one of the actors
that looks at my past performances and I see where
I can improve, and I see, you know, what I
want to do differently next time. And you know, I'm
a perfectionist, so I'm always looking for more things to
explore and learn. Yeah, something that strikes me when I
(07:20):
was thinking about your performance in this and the fact
that you've been doing it for the last few years,
it seems like it also coincides with the Phoenix act stuff,
which is really another So yeah, how did it come
about that you got involved with policy stuff and also
became a voice of it. It just sort of happened.
And I actually credit Westworld a lot for my awakening,
(07:42):
which is what the show is about, and I think,
but it's also what the show is meant to do
to wake us up. And man, did it really work
on me, um, because it was during that first season
where I started to wake up to my own traumas,
and um, I really got to work a lot of
it out on screen, and it showed me a strength
(08:03):
of myself. It gave me permission to be strong in
a way that I just hadn't felt before. And did
you seek out this sort of you know, activism or
did somebody find you or had it been in the
back burner but suddenly you knew what to do with it?
You know, I hadn't even admitted to myself a lot
of things were what they were. Um, I didn't call
(08:23):
myself a domestic violence survivory, you know. I couldn't. I
couldn't say I was raped. I hadn't gone there yet,
which is by the way, part of the point of
the Phoenix Act for anybody listening, the whole idea of it.
And it's California and also ideally nationally, although we're we're
starting there. We're starting and we're starting to get sponsors
on other states. And the idea is not even to
(08:47):
change how domestic violent perpetrators are handled, but actually just
the statute of limitation so that people who have gone
through something and have the time. We're learning so much
about tron the effects it has on our minds and
bodies and the amount of time that it takes to
really process a traumatic event, and there's so much research
(09:08):
to back this up with. The laws still aren't really
reflecting it, and victims are suffering and not able to
seek justice because they've been so hurt they haven't even
begun to face what happened, or identify what happened, or
to feel safe enough. Um, there's a there's a quote
(09:28):
that you said, I did whatever I could to feel safe,
which meant putting time and space between me, him and
the abuse. It's very true, yeah, and really really terrible circumstances.
You need years too sometimes become financially independent. You need
to hide, you need to set up a new life somewhere,
You need to process what happened to you. And it
(09:49):
can sound like three to five years is a long time,
and you think, well, you should know when a crime
has been committed against you immediately, but you don't, especially
when love is andvolved, especially when trauma is involved. Domestic
violence is just such a complicated psychological roller coaster, and
there's virtually no education about it. Um. I mean, that's
(10:10):
what it seems like. You're kind of on like an education.
You can't really, that's what it feels like. You can't
really blame people for not being able to identify something
that that just actually said, just for people if they
want online. Are both of your testimonies, the one of
the state level and the one of the national level,
which are by the way, very different in a year
apart from each other, and I'm very interesting we're going
to get into actually if you don't mind, no technical
(10:32):
of how you prepped for that. Absolutely, but I just
want to say that like one of the experiences that
I had listening to it was that it did feel
like you were educating people on how laws don't reflect humans. Yeah. Absolutely,
there's a lot we don't know about the legal system
(10:52):
or the legal terms. And I will say the press
takes advantage of that a lot in the way they
spin cases. You had this line that you yes, you
this line that you said where you were like, you
know what you had you know conditioned in you, which, boy,
does it sound like the sort of thing all of
us grew up with was that when he hits you,
you leave, and so if you haven't left, then there's
(11:15):
something wrong with you. And then whose fault is that? Exactly? Fault?
That's exactly And that's what a lot of people say,
and uh, you know, depending on who the perpetrator is
Some people go, oh, well, what did you expect? Yeah,
checking up with that guy thinks to happen. What were
you wearing? Yeah, what we're wearing. It's the same thing. Yeah,
it's it's it's it's the same thing. So how did
(11:35):
you prep They were two different experiences. I'm guessing they were. Um. Well,
the first time I testified, somebody approached me about it.
I wasn't planning on, you know, sharing my story with
the world. But given the state of where we were
and you know, our views on this kind of thing,
I thought, oh god, if I don't tell my truth, now,
what the hell am I doing? Like I'm being called
to do it? What was that decision process? Like, was
(11:56):
it a was it that or was it like sitting
with it when I asked myself what I really stand for,
what I really believe? And you know, it was you know,
this is this is what you believed, and this is
your time and you gotta take it. I would argue
about the platform, but it's hard because like when when
ME two came around, and the whole idea of telling
(12:17):
your story with that hashtag was empowering and community building.
It also I was struck. Watching all my friends post that,
I was struck, being like, how dare society say that
you have to go through something else? And then they
finally with a no brainer. I mean, living your values
is what you're saying you did, and that is you know,
deserves all the everything. And also the other way of
(12:39):
living your values would have been to say, like, I'm
just going to protect myself and that's also fine. That
would have been fine too. You know, there were times
when I wasn't ready to say anything because I was
too scared, and I also was open about my decision
not to say anything, and I, you know, let people
know it's not my fault that I'm too scared to
say something. You know, it shouldn't be my responsibility. Hey,
why don't we not also shame victim exactly? Um, but
(13:01):
then we shame them when they do come forward as well.
And I think that's what I was really afraid of,
because there's already so much shame involved that just for
my psyche, I thought, oh god, you know, I'm going
to come forward. I'm gonna say all this stuff happened
to me. And I just thought, what if I get creamed?
You know, what if I get you know, drug again?
Um uh no, um no. That the majority has been
(13:27):
so supportive and was such a relief and meant so much.
People's response was amazing. You know, now it's different because
I think now it's really fun to spend me as
a like angry feminists, and so now every time I
do try to say something that to me, it just
seems education based, like get like every Rachel food goes
(13:48):
on rants or like every Rachel would And I'm like, whoa,
what it feels like farthest you are from your from
just telling your own story. The more that like suddenly
you're a mouthpiece for some you know, nameless You're just
nagging nazi. Yeah that's gone too far. You're nagging nippick
T shirt that says feminist kill joy that I'm really
(14:10):
by the way, it also in rainbow, Oh my god.
But yeah, okay, So I want to talk just super
specifics before we move on from this though, because how
did you write it? Right? I mean, not because I
just want to kind of probe, but because for people
who are listening, who really are thinking about not just
a presentation they have to give. That's like, let me
show my amazing new idea, but rather something that is
(14:31):
serving a larger purposely, as you said in one of
your testimonies, like, this isn't about changing what would happen
with your own case. It's actually about lending your voice
to future people exactly. Yeah, the Phoenix Sack doesn't affect
my case, but I didn't want anybody to have to
go through what I went through. I wanted my evidence
to matter. There were provisions in the Phoenix Act that
we had that got taken out at the last minute,
(14:52):
not by us, which was disappointing, because we had a
clause in there where three or more women came forward
than their sati limitations would temporarily be lifted, so that
would stop serial abusers, which was a big deal if
we had some of those in the US, you know.
But anyway, they gutted that from our bill. Yeah, I'm
still fighting for that. That's another fight. But the prep
(15:13):
for it, you know, I was working with other survivors
at the time, and I let them read it because
you know, I wanted to make it all about the
world and this and that, and they were like, you know,
I know, it's really tempting to say everything you want
to say in this, but remember this is a testimy,
this is your experience, and you just need to tell
the truth about your experience, and that helps. So I
(15:34):
condensed it more to just here are the facts, here's
my truth, you know, and also here are a couple
of things I want to say about how we raised boys,
and you know the our our views on this. But ultimately,
you know, I just poured my heart out and they
only give you two minutes to tell your life's trauma.
You know, there's literally a timer in front of you
(15:54):
that's taking down as you're reliving all the worst moments
of your life. And it was an complete out of
body experience. Were you just like in the moment, what
were you telling yourself? I was so scared. I don't
think I've ever been more scared to do anything in
my life. Like I get choked up just thinking about it,
Like walking into that room, the House of the House
(16:16):
of Representative Room Congress, going to the underground tunnels in
Washington and coming into that room and staring them all
in the face and knowing why I was there. You're
just going, this is not my life. What the funk
am I doing here? Sorry? I don't over a lot
of by w there is no way that this is
real and that I'm actually having to do this right now.
(16:36):
You know, there's nothing about me that's going this is
my story. Yeah, you're going this can't be right. So
what made you like continue walking? Were you just like
keeping yeah, just keep going, just keep walking, keep walking?
And I just took a deep breath and did it,
you know. But I also, Um, I devour like ted
talks and speeches, and I'm always moved. I a good speech,
(17:02):
you know that flows and you know, tells a story,
reveals itself in the right way, leads you to this
kind of amazing conclusion that's also a little open ended,
so that you get to, you know, have your own
opinions about it. I devour those all the time, and
so I feel like I maybe have an understanding of
how they work, and I think I've been pretty good
(17:22):
at being able to give them. Um, I'm a mess
in my everyday life in normal conversation, I'm super awkward.
But if I can write it down, I'm serious. If
I can write it down and be able to look
at it and revise it, I can get to a
really good place with my words. But I usually fumble.
One of my favorite moments from your concert that I
(17:43):
got to see this weekend is a moment when you
said on stage, if you're a California resident, you have
more rights now. Yes, And it was like that version
of you that has gone through that that isn't the
same girl who is in that no space either at
the time of you know, everything that was happening to
and also at the time of having to relive it.
(18:03):
But like what you um the reward, the reward was great. Um.
I remember the second time I testified, I thought, well,
it'll be easier this time because I've done it once. Boy,
was I wrong to me that one felt from the
outside watching the one that was the closer. Yeah, Well,
the first one was about a very specific law and
(18:25):
the second one was really, hey, this is my story
and this is why this law was important, And it
was just they were different angles, same topics, but yes,
it was the goal was different, so what I decided
to tell changed And yeah, the second one was very difficult,
and there was also so much writing on it. That
(18:46):
was our first vote, and so we really didn't know
what was going to happen. It was either going to
live or die on our testimonies. I also wonder there's
like a stereotype about this, so tell me if it
feels true or not. But when you're acting, and probably
when you're singing, there is a persona that you can
put on that feels safer. Yeah. Yeah, there's a meditative space.
(19:09):
It's the flow state. You know. I'm big into the flow.
That's always my goal. If I can't remember doing half
of my shows, then that's a great sign to me
because that means I was just in a flow state.
I was just in it, you know, I wasn't thinking.
And same thing with scenes. You know if I black
out during a scene, and that means I was just
completely in it. Well, now it sounds like you actually
(19:30):
had some of that experience then when you were doing
the congressional stuff too, So you just you go into
blackouts every once in a while. And yes, it shouldn't
be worried. It's true though, it's a I do. It's
a meditative place. What does it feel like on stage
when you're singing? How is it as a communication. It's
like opening the doors to my heart and you know,
(19:52):
like a flock of birds flying out. That's what it
feels like. I just love it. I know it sounds
so cheesy, but it's true. It's like that's where I
feel the most expanded, because again, I feel like sometimes
language can be limiting, but music is so complicated and nuanced,
and like one little note or inflection of a word
(20:13):
can change the whole meaning. Um, you know, and sometimes
you don't even need words, you just need sounds and
you understand. So I don't know, I just feel like
also the I'm talking specifically about the Evan and Zane
show for people who are listening, which is so delightful
and as you said when I was there, it's like
a cover band but not it's like experience. Yeah, and
(20:37):
just like such top notch you know, performance and talent
and creativity and your guys band part of the band
are also just struck me. When I was thinking about
interviewing you that it's a real version of you, it's not.
I mean, I was thinking about the idea of an
alter ego, and maybe you think about that too, but
it also feels like the dream with the real alter
ego is it's not somebody who isn't you? The heightened
(20:58):
version of you? Yeah, it's like that you with who
who's standing in her power. One might say, yeah, standing
in your light, taking your space, Yeah, which is weirdly
hard for me to do. And I'm usually I'm always
nervous when I do those shows, by the way, like
the first two songs, I'm always shaking, and it's just
because I care so much and I love the songs
and I just want to do them justice, and I
(21:19):
get really nervous. You also have a room full of
people who are there because they already get you exactly,
and you know, our audience matters. You know, a more
hostile audience obviously gets us in our head more. But
sometimes the audience that knows you're good makes me get
in my head, you know, because when you're expectations, somebody
(21:40):
do with that. You're just like, expectations make me get
in my head more than anything, honestly. I mean, there's
a perfectionism streak is Yeah, it is hard. Yeah, it's hard.
It makes you better and also, you know, it's like
an endless conversation. I find for this podcast, there's an
endless conversation with myself of the same thing I tell
my client ants, which is authentic is better than articulate,
(22:05):
Like let's just say something that feels real. Um, we're
going to take a quick break. And so we were
talking about singing. Um, I can't not mention queen. Oh yeah,
(22:26):
you've become a Disney princess, Disney queen. I'm so sorry,
Disney queen. A promotion A promotion? Yeah really wild? Um, Actually,
now that I think about it, there aren't a lot
of Disney queens that are good characters. No, they're usually
quite evil and get killed off. They always get I
mean yeah, I mean I said, the only thing as
cool as being a Disney princess is being a Disney
(22:47):
mom that dies, because I mean one thing told me
when doesn't die. No, it's actually the same with Shakespeare,
like lots of missing moms. Yeah, it's a it's a
how was that experience a wild? What's crazy is we
had just done it an Evan and Zane show that
was a Disney theme and I got the call and
(23:08):
I didn't get to read the script or anything. We
got the breakdown of the character and I went, I
know this, I know what to do. I know And
I listened to Dina and Kristen Bell and um, I thought, okay,
if I can incorporate some of their sounds into her,
but make it but slightly age it a bit and
make it a little you know, more maternal. You know,
(23:29):
then you'll go, oh, that's on a Nelson's mom, like
I can hear it. And so that's what I tried
to do with the audition and it worked. And it's
a lullaby, so as somebody who's seen you on stage, like,
really belt it doesn't give you that. No, it was
much harder to sing quietly. Actually, when I first got
into do the first recording, I came in and I'm
(23:51):
fresh off the boat doing Evan and Zane like LOUNGI,
you know, smokey shows. And they were like, Okay, first
of all, we gotta whatever you're doing, we gotta stop.
And I was like, what, Like, we gotta get you
way up into the front of your face, you know,
you're you're down here, like up here, and I was like,
right right, Disney, right, And so that was kind of
(24:12):
our first so interesting. I love it. Yeah, yeah, but yeah,
there's a very specific placement for Disney. I feel like, um,
it almost feels like what they wanted was like untouched
by well, certainly untouched by the modern world, but even
just untouched by the world, because a lot of our
voice lowering stuff happens when we're like, oh, you don't
take me seriously up high, Well, then let me find
(24:32):
something right. But it was to strip that away and
just say, what if we lived in this fantasy world
where that's not necessary. Exactly exactly, and I read somewhere
that you've sung this song to your child. I did. Yeah.
When I went to audition. I told him I was
going to audition for a Disney movie and he said,
I hope they clapped for you. And then I went
in and a little bit of a British accent, a
(24:54):
little yeah when he says certain words. His father's British,
so every now and he's like, can I chocolate? And
I'm like, oh, very cute, and his British accent when
he'll he'll turn it on and start doing characters, and
I'm like, yes, that is my song. Um. Anyway, when
I went in into the audition, and after I sang,
they did clap, and so I came home I went,
(25:15):
guess what the clap? But then I didn't hear anything
back for a couple of months, and I just got
the call randomly on the day that I was going
to Disneyland. So the yeah, it was framed by Disney experiences.
That's delightful. What was like, um, I cried. I mean
(25:36):
it was like a dream come true. I had learned.
Disney taught me how to sing, you know, and I
used to I used to get the CDs when they
came out, but they were in that long remember West
to get CDs came in that long packaging, and it
was like the size of a plank of wood. And
I had beating the Beast, a little Mermaid and all
those things that we could like see them in the
files right yeah, in the old record file yeah yeah,
(25:58):
and had the track listening. So I used to act
them out at home a lot um and it was
my dream. It was like you have professional singing training,
I had a bit. I started in musical theater and
so the first thing I learned was to use my voice.
First thing I did was go into a you know,
groups of people and learn how to sing in a choir.
And I was originally a soprano um and then taught
(26:21):
myself how to do all too. And then you know,
and then I hung out in lounges and then then
I got turned onto p J. Harvey and like Peggy Lee,
and I was like, I wanna learn how to do this, um.
But yeah, so first it was you know, vocal exercises
and you know, learning how to project to the back
row and learning how to take care of your voice,
but to be able to sing every night and voices
(26:42):
like tips and that that come to mind. Well, I
I did get vocal notes once and it was so
depressing because singing is like my heart and I couldn't
do it because I had notes, and it was like
so depressing. I really fell the doves. All the doves started, Yeah,
they were their wings were clipped. It was terrible, and
so I had to go to speech therapy. And that's
(27:04):
when I realized that I had kind of done what
you were talking about. Throughout the years, my voice had
progressed with gutten lower and like my normal speaking voice
was like cutting down here. And she was like, if
you're going to be a singer, you cannot do that.
You have to hold yourself to a higher set of standards.
And so she taught me how to, you know, in
my everyday life, speak more a pure to give my
and I have to say exact same experience in my
(27:25):
mid twenties, and and part of the psychological half of
that was hearing that voice back, either like in recordings
or in my own head and just having to like
tell myself that person does not sound dumb. Yes, yeah, yeah,
which is like patriarchy. Great, yeah, great, it turns out
I've picked up all the lessons that I shouldn't have.
(27:47):
It's still hard when I need to rest my voice
and I have to speak really high. I don't. It doesn't.
I think that is where it comes from. You just think, oh,
people are going to think of But also when you do,
like how many songs that you do two nights together,
forty something for me, you know, that's a marathon a lot.
It's a lot. I don't mean that's been a question.
(28:09):
I'm literally just pointing out like it is. But I do,
I do. I do vocal warm ups. I still have
a woman that I go to every now and then
because it's I think your voice is just one of
those things that's always changing, and you know, there's always
room for improvement, or you don't use it for a
while and then you gotta you know, work the muscles
up and go back to what are those good ones again? Yeah,
(28:31):
sometimes I go, you know, saying at the top of
my lungs and places without warming up and really regret it.
That's a terrible idea. Please don't do that. Only the
older we get, the more our buddy is not forgiving.
It's learned my lesson. It's so not a good idea.
Now people would be like, hey, can you come and
like sing at this party I'm doing And I'm sure
on my way there. I'm like, I don't even care
(28:54):
about warming up in front of people anymore. Yeah, that's right.
They're like, what are you doing. I'm like, I'm saving
my vo brace is what I'm doing. Um, I have
a hard hitting journalistic question from my four and a
half year old, which, unfortunately, as I did research for you,
I already got the answer for us. So now it's
totally disingenuous. But I love that when I was thinking
about interviewing you, I remember that when we saw Frozen
to my child and I afterwards we had such a
(29:17):
like philosophical conversation about who the voice was. She continues
to hear and he's like, and this is my favorite part.
He's like, it's obviously the mom yeah, and it turns
out you did not do the That is Aurora, but
it is also um young Queena Douna, So it is Um.
(29:38):
I think in the film they say when the forest,
you know, when the spell goes over the forest and
closes everybody in. They said, some people say that you
could hear the Fifth Spirit call out on that day,
but it was actually Queena Douna calling out when she
was saving Prince agnar Um. So I think it's a
mixture of Young Queen Douna and Aurora. And I want
(29:59):
to say, there's like a fever dream that I have
of me doing it once, but I don't remember if
I did or not. I bet to see if. But
I think doing different people doing that. Yeah, it's a
bunch of different. I just love the idea that my
son would think that it was the mom. I love
that because clearly it should it kind of is. It
(30:19):
is the past. It is her mom from the past. Um.
I mean that's that's brilliant about that. Lower by I
mean the fact that all of the secrets are hidden
in that. It's I mean storytelling wise, it's great. Wow
do they do it so? West World? What is it like?
What is the like additional sort of leadership responsibility that
you feel. It was a new thing for me. I
(30:40):
had never um been at the helm of something quite
like that, and I didn't know what my place really
was at first until there were moments where I would
you know, this just happens on all sets. You're like,
oh man, those extras really need water, it's really hot.
Or I don't really like the way that person speaking
(31:01):
in this person, or I don't know, I feel like
we should rehearse first and maybe block later, you know,
And there's all these things and I started to voice
these things to the producers and they were like, dude,
you gotta just say this. And I was like, what
are you talking about? And they were like, you're number
one on the call sheet, like we need you to
be the one to say these things. And I thought, oh, right,
like that is this is a new thing. So it
(31:24):
was like I had permission suddenly to you know, also
kind of be mother hand a little bit, um yeah,
and say things that other people couldn't say, and speak
up for people that may be too afraid to say.
It seems almost like this is a pattern in your life. Yes,
I mean does it? Does it? It also probably puts
(31:45):
I don't know, actually I shouldn't say that. Does it
put you into inconvenient positions because it seems like when
you're the number one on the show, not necessarily because
people are really really conditioned to be like, what she needs,
she gets. Yeah, I am almost too easy to work
with sometimes, probably because of being a kid actor. You
just kind of you're like, oh, should I say something.
(32:08):
I'm used to be like whatever you want me to do,
especially as a woman, you don't want to come across
as difficult and literally that words ute unquote ask for
what you need that And definitely women are held to
a much higher standard than men on sets when they
demand for things that they need and when a man
does it or when you know, I've been on sets
where you know, actors start wrecking the set because they
(32:30):
can't remember their lines, you know, and I don't hear
anybody talking smack about them. Afterwards they're like, oh, man,
that was awesome, Tod just see that. They're so brilliant
and it's like a fun story. But if a woman
did that, they'd be like, bitch, like wreck the set,
like there's so much so so there is there is
(32:50):
a there is a double standard there for sure that
I can definitely still feel. But luckily West World is
an incredible set and they have a massive amount of
respect for the women that work on the show. In
season three, half of the season is directed by women,
including the finale, so they've done a great job at
ushering in a lot of female directors. Does it feel
(33:11):
different working with a female director? Yeah, yeah, I mean
obviously not only under the same I don't need to
make it a yeah. Um, you know, sometimes it is
and sometimes it isn't. But you know, I said yes,
but honestly, no, there isn't really that much of a difference.
I think only so that because one of them was
specifically really good about working with the actors and speaking
our language. But I don't think that's because she was
(33:31):
a woman. Um to me, it was an actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
To me, it feels like sometimes it isn't about the
fact that the director is a woman as much as
it's that like when a woman is in charge of
the show, even just for that you know, week and
a half or whatever that you're shooting that episode, it
changes about the power dynamic in the entire hundred fifty
person crew and it's nice. I mean also sometimes that's
(33:56):
when I've noticed being on sets that like some of
the do choose to be louder about the things they
don't like about women who demand things. So sometimes ship
comes out of the closet when there's a woman in charge.
But overall, it also is like we're teaching people that
this is what female leadership is. You know, get used
(34:16):
to it and it's okay. You don't have to feel
like your mom is telling you to clean your room,
which I feel like is a lot of the vibe
you get sometimes like I'm not telling you to pick
your shoes up off the floor. I just need you
to move the flag. Everybody, everybody, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
mean it's a serious, it's a serious, it's a conversation,
it's a thing. But you know it's also yeah, we're
(34:37):
all learning, and we're all learning together, and you know,
we've all been the product of major brainwashing that we're
all trying to undo and you know, some of us more,
more trying more than others. Yeah, you know, but hopefully
we'll get there. Um do you do you have sort
of a process for choosing projects, Especially the older you
get in the more you're actually I don't know, it's
(34:58):
not an older you get things. You've been doing this
your whole life. In terms of like trying to do
stuff that feels right, I think that's really what is.
I just follow my gut, um, and I don't. I
don't let the fear of I have to do something, um,
you know, make me do something that I don't want
to do, because I just know by now if my
heart's not in it, and I'm not going to be
very good and I'm gonna be miserable, and it's just
(35:19):
I'm gonna have time away from my son, and you know,
it's just the thing I don't want to do. But UM,
are you thinking about directing or producing? Well, you know,
I've directed a couple of music videos. I did shoot
a short film that I wrote with Leah Thompson, UM,
which I'm still in the process of doing the special
effects for. Um. Are you adding hoverboards? Right? Yeah? With
(35:42):
the DeLorean, Um, that was such a great moment. I
loved every minute of it. But um, she was actually
the first actor that I ever heard speak words that
I wrote and it was so cool to watch. Um,
somebody that really knew what they were doing. Say something
that you wrote and was going of works, it's working,
exactually working. Yes, So I did direct that I and
(36:05):
I like it. I did pitch a film that I
wrote for a couple of years, which actually is no
time at all when you're pitching a film, but so
depressing because honestly, I had an all female cast with
me and Jenny Slate and Cynthia Riva who just got
dominated for an Oscar and Alison pill Like, what an
awesome cast. No one would give us money to make
(36:26):
the movie. Anybody listening is so and we were like, okay,
yayn going to blow up? But did nobody listened to us? Um?
But that experience was kind of so discouraging that I
was like, I am not ready to do this right now.
Like on top of my history and the Feenix Act
and everything else, I was like, I can't be in
(36:46):
another pitch room that is so sexist and there are
no people of coloring here, and there are no women
in these rooms, and I am I just couldn't. I
didn't have the stomach for it. Maybe one day I will.
But I actually spoke to Ron Howard about it, who
I worked with, and I ran into him and I
was like, oh, you know, I'm I'm thinking about directing.
And I said, Ron, how do you do this? How
(37:06):
do you work with these people? And He's like, you
gotta really want to do it, And I thought, maybe,
I you may need to wait until it's this uncontrollable
urge that I can't stifle anymore. Boy. I mean, I
hear that, and I also think, like clearly, maybe yes,
you really need to want to do it, but also
you really need to be game for the hustle. And
(37:28):
I don't think you're hustle and Ron's hustle are the same,
so they're not No, they're not. Um, and I just
don't think I was game for the hustle right now. Man,
I need a second. I just couldn't do it. Yeah.
I accepted defeat on that one for now. Um, but
that's not to say later on in life I wouldn't
really love to do it. I have a few quick questions. One,
do you have a mom voice? Yeah? And it hears
(37:52):
me because it's my mom's voice, you know, you know
those moments were like oh my god, that is my mom. Um.
It depends, you know, there's like sweet mom voice and
then there's like Okay, seriously, I've said this five times.
You gotta go do this right now. I feel very
like I feel like my acting background really comes out
with my kid, not necessarily because I'm acting differently than
(38:13):
I'm feeling, but that I'm like, I know how to
change my voice to get what I want well, And
they teach you that in parenting class. You know, to
when you want them to listen to you in a
certain way, to lower the register of your voice, not
necessarily get louder, but it's a register thing that they
say actually works. Yeah, it's that's so weird that like
going like I can't learner to listen to me. It
(38:33):
doesn't work. It's very true. Yeah, yeah, interesting. Maybe I
should have a parenting expert on to talk about that. Yeah,
that's a that's a I mean, I would argue that
because the whole lowering voice thing is there, it's so
fraught for women especially, but that the other half of it,
besides just you know, lower your voice to the extent
(38:54):
that you get vocal nodules, the other half of it
is that um a uh, the more stressed we get
the moment, the more adrenaline hits our vocal cords. Et
center the more we go up, so some of that
is actually just pretending to sound calm. Yeah, well that's
so interesting, right interesting. Then you know kids pick that
shut up yeah, and they're like, Okay, maybe I should
(39:15):
be calm now. My next question is, let's talked to
us for a second about how you use social media,
because I know you were talking early about your platform,
and it really strikes me for somebody like you who's
really embraced social media in certain ways, I mean you're
on Twitter a lot, it really is this double edged sword.
There is an opportunity to be seen and to you know,
(39:39):
foment movements whatever, to bring people together in a way
that is not should not be denied when we're talking
about the ills of social media, and also you're using
your platform in a way that also just fully exposes yourself. Absolutely. Yeah.
I like using it as a conversation starter and as
an educational tool. And if you follow me, you know,
(40:02):
I don't really like competition or getting into fights with people.
I like listening and learning, and if there is a
blind spot that I've had, I'm very open to hearing
what that is. If somebody is willing to have an
honest conversation with me about it and not just yell
at me. You know, I'm like I was saying, when
things that I say get really taken out of context
(40:24):
and turned into this uh every riginal with attack on
so and so, you know, when really I'm just I'm
trying to have a conversation. And that's something that the
media does in a farm tweets um, you know, and
also legalize them, and it's also weaponized against us. Sure.
The issue with social media is it doesn't wait for
(40:45):
anybody either. It's the wild West. It's a public form
where everything happens in real time, and so you have
to know that when you're stepping into that space, you know,
and you're not always going to like the things that
you want to hear. But I always hope that we
strive to, you know, be people that we'll listen to
one another, you know, to voice our concerns when we're hurt.
(41:05):
You know. It's it's when my safety comes into question
where I think we've got to mentally prepare yourself for
like when you're going to be sort of hopping. Sometimes
I did in the world. Sometimes I don't work and
for play, absolutely, I mean I have had to take
a lot of breaks from it recently, you know, even before,
you know, a lot of controversy went down, mainly just
because it wasn't healthy for me. And I also think
(41:27):
it's a false reality. There's a lot on Twitter that's
not even real, and it's there to keep us fighting
and in conflict. And you know, we purposely shake the
jar ants or not we but you know, the media,
but um or the Russians or you know, you know
what I mean. Yeah, there's there's so many different influences
on that platform, um, and one day we'll it'll be
(41:50):
studied and we'll be able to see it all for
what it is and look at it and go, oh, ship,
this wasn't even real. But and then what would we do?
Literally then what we do? Because we probably still just
keep using it? So and we do and I do, um,
you know, but I have deleted the app off of
my phone just so I can't readily just kind of click,
you know anytime I'm bored to go into it, because
it was it was bad for my psyche, and I
(42:12):
do mentally prepare sometimes, but honestly, sometimes I don't think
I'm saying anything that controversial, and it turns into something
and I just feel like I'm being very honest. And
so you know, those are moments when you know, my
eyes and ears are open and I and I want
to learn. But again, you know, it's when my safety
comes into into in with good faith and then like
(42:32):
the internet is like, we're not going to show it
back to you. Yeah, yeah, you should die a horrible death.
Um that I don't agree with. I will always talk
about a controversial point, do you know what I mean? Um?
So you know, I always listen to people if if
they have something to say, you know, and I'm and
I'll never say, you know, I'm always right about anything
because I'm not and I'm not perfect, you know. But
(42:55):
I can't hear you if you're threatening my life, I can't.
We can't actually get anywhere. Where are the parenting classes
for the you know, for the bullies online? Oh? I
don't know. You know, there's bullies online, there's bully rags everywhere.
We're very anti bullying, but you know, we're still fine
with all of the tabloids being all of our grocery
stores and drug stores at eye level with our kids.
(43:16):
You know. So what do you think those are those
are just bullying. That's just that's just printed bullying. It's
been there forever. So it's the same thing. You know,
gonna we're gonna take a quick brick and we're gonna
come back and find out whose voice you have picked
to share. I guess so I have hut up somebody
(43:44):
that Evan has chosen for us to listen to her
voice and talk about it a little bit. First, I
just want to ask you, Evan, who have you I
have picked Renee Brown, who are not familiar a has
a terrific voice. I feel like it's she. I feel
like everyone is familiar with her now, I think so.
But I deliberately picked a bit from her early ted
(44:06):
talk to Numero. You know, yes, but yes, you were saying,
she's a grateful she has a fantastic voice, and she
uses it very well. Yeah, I think so too. She's
very relatable but very profound, and she's got that little
Southern twang. It's great. I mean, that's truly all the stuff,
and it's and like leveraging that instead of hiding behind that,
which you know, her whole thing is about shame and vulnerability,
so not hiding behind it is a good thing. The
(44:28):
idea with these little segments where we talk about this
stuff is that often when we think about women's voices,
it's hard to call to mind the voices of the
women in our lives that we admire. And we might
think of our mom or we might think of, you know,
the one or two women who have been lauded to
such an extent, the Oprah's of the world, and those
people deserve to get attention as well. But the reality
(44:52):
is there are so many women who are killing it.
And I don't even necessarily want to talk about women only.
This is people who are not the archetype of power
that we've come to, you know, here when we hear
the straight white man, probably rich, probably stoic, or like
not revealing emotion in the way that seems natural to us,
(45:14):
and we're like, if we're not that, then we're not
worthy of power. And that's the you know, that's the
assumption I want to break. Yeah, the vision of power
is changing. The vision of power is changing, and we
get to use this time to like listen to some
of the people who are really doing it so that
they can come to mind, so that we can be like, oh,
I think I'm this type, or we can be like
(45:35):
I am a new type. Yeah anyway, Okay, So here's
a little bit of brine that we just listen to
real fast. I hate vulnerability, and so I thought, this
is my chance to beat it back with my marriage
ring stick. I'm going in, I'm going to figure this
stuff out. I'm going to spend a year. I'm gonna
totally deconstruct shame. I'm gonna understand how vulnerability works, and
(45:56):
I'm going to outsmart it. So I was ready, and
I was really excited, as you know, it's not gonna
turn out well. Um, I mean I love that moment
at the end because it's so I don't think she
was planning on saying that. If you look back and
look at it, I think she was really planning on
just moving ahead. And then something that I want to
point out is she read she read the room, and
(46:19):
she was like, ah, I set that up in a
way where if I just move on now, I'm going
to seem inauthentic. And there's this huge laugh that happens
after that moment of this release. Because one of the
biggest things that we need to do when we're, you know,
in front of an audience is like acknowledge what's really happening. Yes, yes,
which is scary. Read the energy energy, and also read
(46:41):
if you've made a mistake or whatever. Absolutely, absolutely you
can't just plan on what you're going to do. One
of the best things I ever learned in acting class
I learned with a couch ball, and and it was
how my acting coach proved to us you cannot just
practice how you're going to do it. And he was like, okay,
stand up, throws me the ball. I catch it. He goes, great,
Now throw it back and now catch it in the
(47:02):
exact same way that you caught it the first time
in my hands in the same place, And of course
he throws it right and I can't catch it. And
he's like, yeah, you have no idea how I'm gonna
throw the ball, so you cannot plan for those I
don't do that yea, which is also really scary, both
of your an actor and also if you're you know,
public speaking, but if something goes a little awry. I
(47:23):
remember I used to coach hosts who were working on
transitioning from being sort of expert in their real lives
to doing the media version of that. On television, so
they didn't necessarily have the same acting background that we might.
And I really had to teach them that those moments
that you sunk up and then acknowledge the funk up
is when the audience falls in love with you. It's true,
(47:43):
and trying pretend that a moment that just happened didn't
is a recipe for disaster, or at least for disconnection.
And the whole point is we want to connect authentic
with our audience and other things about her that are
working so well, you know, I think part of the
reason that she's connected with people as is what you said,
there's a Southern nous to her. She's not hiding that.
She's got a sort of a folksy energy. She has
(48:05):
this little litany in this where she says, I'm gonna
do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this.
But she's an academic, so she could very well have
said I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this,
I'm going to do this. And it's these tiny like
opportunities we give ourselves when we're on stage to not
be formal. Yes, like talk about permission to speak, you
have permission to sound like the same person that you
would have sounded like off stage. And by the way,
(48:29):
the further away our authentic voice is from that kind
of archetype of power, the heart of that is and
the more it is a calculation. And I'm not saying
one size fits all, but i am saying that I'm
interested in pushing those boundaries a little bit because we
had to teach people what power sounds like we do
and teach people how to speak to people in a
way that they'll be heard. Yeah, yeah, it's a big thing.
(48:50):
I know. There's also this whole like are you working
within the system or or just like burning the system down?
So there is a little bit of that sense of like,
do what you have to do to negotiate until you have,
for example, the power to be on a stage, whether
it's attach or not, knowledge to back at um. But
then once you're there, you know, just like you when
(49:11):
you're the lead on a show, you know, how do
we leverage the new power we have to normalize things
that have not been normalized until now. And yes, I
do want to circle back on what you just said,
because authority, it is hard to hear a woman's voice
and be like she's an authority figure, and that's a
controversial sounding thing. I didn't like the way it sounded
coming out of my mouth. But there's so much to
(49:31):
back that up. But I will there's actually science. There
is a she you know, has a PhD and thus
is an authority figure, but be she can also teach
us a little bit about how for those those who
don't have PhDs, we can sort of stand in our
authoritative power on the things that we do know about
because we've had life experiences. I'm part of what was
(49:53):
so beautiful. I think we're wrapping up a part of
what was so beautiful about the advice that you were
given when you had to do the hard stuff in
front of Congress was that stories are so much more
powerful than we realize, and women have been conditioned to
not tell them. Partly because maybe we don't have a
(50:13):
hero's journey that feels like it fits us as much.
And there's an amazing Britt Marlin article that just came
out of wonderful totally and so like truth telling, but
also partly because you know, in the moment, I've had guests,
as I've been doing, you know, prep interviews leading up
to this I've had guests who I'm obviously asking them
for the story of the time when and they're obviously
on my podcast because they're an expert, or they're doing
(50:36):
something brilliantly with their lives, and they dodge it and
it's like, God, that's all of us. Yeah, it's a
weird saying. That's really and yeah, and we get to
sit in it and work our bravery muscle. And I mean,
I just want it's so important. Like bravery is not.
My favorite quote is bravery is not the absence of fear.
(50:57):
It's being afraid in doing it anyway. And I'm never
not afraid when I'm using my voice or being vulnerable
or singing or testifying. But I don't know somehow I
do it anyway. I want to have you on because
I feel like you work that bravery muscle, like you
just work it. It's not like I came in strong.
It's like I worked it. Yeah, yeah, and slowly too.
(51:18):
It didn't happen overnight. I did. And I think Burnee
Brown speaks about this actually, She's like, be a little
brave here, a little brave here, and a little brave here,
and you kind of work your way up to these
big moments, you know, and I think I've I've slowly
been doing that. It didn't just happen, you know, it did.
It took took time to work the muscle. Yeah, that's
good for all of us. Like incremental, incremental wins. Yeah,
(51:39):
and don't and you'll be easy on yourself if you're
not ready, you know this, it's okay. And also like
surround yourself with people who are love you and conditionally. Yeah. Absolutely,
that's so important, my god, because shame is one of
the greatest weapons against us, you know, and people famously
throughout history, people that had conflicting ideas or ideas that
(52:01):
we're ahead of their time, got really beaten yea, emotionally,
sometimes physically burned at burned at the steak, you know,
ostracized from society. Um, I want to end also burn
a brown in a different part of that says, in
order for connection to happen, we have to be seen,
really seen, and that is you know what we're working
on with our voice as well. Yeah, and the voice
(52:22):
is a huge part of that. Um. Evan, thanks for
coming in. Oh my god, so fun. Thank you for
having Thank you to Evan for coming in. You can
find out more about her in the show notes or
on our website Permission to Speak pod dot com. Also,
you can go to Permission to Speak pod dot com
if you have any awesome quotes you'd like me to
(52:43):
read at the top of the episodes, and if you
have any questions, I will do and ask me anything
episode from time to time, and I want to know
what is getting in the way of your voice. You
can also send d M s or voice messages to
our Instagram at Permission to Speak Pod, where we're posting
a bunch of content and please join the community. Thanks
(53:05):
as well to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I
Heeart Radio, to Megan Read, to my family and cohort,
and to all of you. We're recording this podcast in
the I Heart Radio studios in Hollywood on land that
used to belong to the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you
can visit U S d A C dot us to
learn more about honoring native land. Permission to Speak is
(53:26):
a production of I Heart Radio and Double Vision Executive
produced by Katherine Burke Canton and Mark Canton. For more
podcasts from My Heart Radio, listen on the ihart Radio
app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
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