How to Be Yourself with Ashley Nicole Black

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's quote is from A. A. Milne, who wrote Winnie
the Pooh. Because Vito life is hard, guys, it is
more fun to talk with someone who doesn't use long,
difficult words, but rather short, easy words like what about lunch?

(00:29):
Welcome to Permission to Speak. The podcast about how we
talk and how we get ourselves heard with me samarrow Bay.
Today's guest is Ashley Nicole Black. She is known for
writing on Full Frontal with Samantha b and also conducting

(00:49):
some stunning interviews on air. We're gonna link to her
Stacy Abrams special, which is brilliant and stands the test
of time. She's also one of the head right ters
and actors on HBO as a Black Lady's Sketch Show.
And if you follow her, you know her twitter feed. Yes,
she is the one who tweeted out about um Elizabeth

(01:10):
Warren asking if she had plans for her love life
and uh Luz responded and we talked about what happened
after that in this conversation. I wanted to have Ashley
on because I mean, she's a total comedic genius and
she channels her voice on the page on screen, into
advice columns, into her own podcast, which is temporarily on hold,

(01:33):
but it's awesome and has an amazing backlog. It's called
SIP on This with Ashley Nicole Black, and in our conversation,
I I really appreciated her take on improv and how
it teaches us to be better everything's and her absolutely
unique experience. I would say, uh, leaving a PhD program

(01:58):
where she was focused on contemporary minstrelsy to join Second
City in Chicago and do improv and sketch, which led
her to Hollywood. It's amazing. I should also say we
recorded this very early on in the pandemic, when I
had just figured out my home studio and had, as
it turned out, not quite figured out my WiFi. And

(02:20):
that's my caveat on our our timing being a little off.
I think she couldn't understand everything I was saying and
was being very gracious about it. But don't worry, I've
since fixed the problem. But we held this one back
in our archives for a little bit and I decided,
you know what, look to share it because she is
a wonder. This is Ashley Nicole Black. I read this

(02:50):
amazing quote of yours. You said I was a really
shy and weird kid. So I think that my parents
are happy I have the ability to talk to people
at all. My mom used to literally, you forced me
to go outside and I used to prop my book
up on the handlebars of my bike and ride in
a circle. Yes, I did. And I don't think my

(03:10):
parents think that I know it, because they told me.
They were like, we're so happy it worked out because
you were so weird and we just wondered if you
were going to be okay. I mean for all of
us waiting here, Um, how do you like? What do
you when you think of her and you think of
you now? Do you have trouble like squaring who those
two people are or does it seem like it's a

(03:30):
completely linear progression from that girl with the handlebars? Um,
it is a completely linear progression. I think when I
was a kid, I was like a really smart kid,
like hi, I q low eq. I didn't like understand
what was happening with people. So I would like often
be like thinking really hard about something and then just

(03:51):
start a conversation in the middle of that thought process.
And my parents had to teach me like you gotta
say hello to people and where they are and then
start the beginning of the conversation to bring them along
with you. It wasn't like a natural thing for me,
but I was like, did you actually try that? I mean,
do you remember really actively being like, let me try
doing that thing. My parents told me it works well, absolutely,

(04:16):
and they are great communicators, like my dad's a minister, um,
and so like being a good communicator, it was like
an important thing in our household. It was like a job.
It was something you've learned to do. Um. And I
was also like a super curious kid, and like my
parents didn't believe in like giving children answers to questions,
like if you wanted to know how something worked, you

(04:36):
could pull out the dictionary or like eventually, um, you
could ask jeeves and uh find out about it. And
so it was like it was so interesting in finding
out about things that I had to learn how to
like communicate those things to people. Mm. Yeah. That makes
me think of when I was like when I've been
a teacher or a coach and people are asking me

(04:57):
things that I don't actually think are that relevant to
the act coaching, like why is it that this accent
sounds like this? And I'm always like, great questions to
let me know. It's such a relief to be able
to just be like the person who has the thought
has to solve it for themselves. Yeah, okay, so that
was so it worked in a way because now I
feel like you're a great not only are you a

(05:18):
great communicator, but you've actually used that particular skill. I mean,
I'm thinking specifically of like when you're on Samantha b
And and question asking and being really present with people
was like the job. Yeah, I think like I started
doing improv um because I thought it was fun and
I enjoyed performing um. But the thing of improv is

(05:41):
like listening very deeply to people and like responding to
them from a place of yes um. And so then
when I got that job, it's not really a job
that you can train for because like before it started
with like just the Daily Show. Now there are more
shows that do that, but you would there wouldn't be
like a college class on how to be a fake
news correspondent because there was like one show that was

(06:03):
doing that. So once when I started doing it, I
was like, oh, I don't know if I know how
to do this. And I was really lucky to get
to observe Sam, who is the absolute best at it,
and I sort of like the thing that she does
so well. She's such a like open empathetic person that
people immediately feel very comfortable with her to the point

(06:26):
where she can do I've seen her do the most
wild things in front of people and they're just so
in love with her that they just sit there while
she like does a whole comedy routine and they're just like,
I trust this lady, I'm sure this is going somewhere. Um.
So I was never like quite that good at it,
but at the formula that worked for me, I was like, Oh,
it's like doing improv with someone who doesn't know how

(06:48):
to do it and doesn't know that they are doing it,
and so you're just like saying yes to whatever it
is they're doing. And sometimes you physically have to like
hold people on camera like you you wouldn't be able
to tell, but behind their I'm like physically holding them
from running away because some people's impulse when they see
a cameras to retreat and you're like, so you're like
trying to listen to them and remember all the things

(07:10):
that you need to talk about and like stay on topic.
And get what you need for the piece, but also
somehow physically radiate like trust and confidence and physically keep
them in fraight. How do you besides the physical part
with your hand, how do you like what do you
what is the actual technically speaking, how do you do
that radiating? Like do just think that thought and then

(07:31):
just and then just run with it? Um? I try
to just like tell people they're doing a good job
and like you're okay. This is because like a lot
of times people think they are supposed to be funny
and like they're not. Like, all you need to do
in this moment is be honest and tell me your
real opinions and um, sort of reassuring people that like

(07:55):
that's enough that you don't need to entertain me or
the idea of the audience. Like literally, if you just
tell me the truth, you will have done the perfect thing. Yeah,
that's amazing. It also makes me wonder, like, um, can
you tell us about I want to get into everything
with your PhD program and your and your leaving of
the PhD program for improv you you you like left

(08:19):
the old lover for the new lover. Um but but um,
but actually, yeah, let me just start there. So I
want to get back to talking about improv. But first,
what was Will you set the scene of what was
happening for you academically when you discovered sketch and comedy. Um. Yes,
so I went to grad school like half because I

(08:41):
was good at that kind of work, like I enjoy theory,
I enjoy writing, I enjoy like solving and figuring out
a problem. Um. But also half because the thing I
really wanted to do, which was be an actor, didn't
seem accessible to me. I also, by the way I
read that you were talking about in college, like never

(09:01):
getting cast as the lead, um, which I really which
really resonates with me. I always and I think this
is still true, but certainly wasn't that time. I always
was like whatever the smallest character, they could still be
considered a lead character. Was like, I wasn't garbage. I
was trying myself as like a B plus actor, Like
I it's not bad. I just was never going to

(09:23):
be the lead, and in retrospect was often playing like
the comic relief character. But wasn't like president enough to
realize that I was funny. I was just like, oh,
I'm not pretty. I don't get to be the girl who,
like someone falls in love with, but also a lot
of times that character is quite boring and there's more
fun funny yes, character off to the side, Yes, which
is the same. I remember I got an I got

(09:43):
an m f A in acting. And so there was like,
you know, eight girls at guys in my class, and
the very the third year they had, um somebody like
it was so theater based, and then suddenly they had
somebody from Hollywood pop in and be like, so, here
are your types. Yes, and he went through and literally
every single person in my class was you're the lead,
You're the best friend, You're the lead, you're the best friend.

(10:03):
I was the one who they said was the character actor. Yeah.
And I was like, oh my god, this makes so
much sense of why I've always felt like the weird
outsider in my grad school class, and also why no
one knows what to do with me except just put
me in the funny role and like, let her solve
that thing. One of those where um, there's like a

(10:25):
list of the types of characters you would play, and
everyone's like a cop and FBI agent, lawyer, you know whatever,
and mine were all like a nurse assistant, district attorney,
a beat cop. It was an assistant version of every job.
I mean, so you were like, let me actually talk

(10:47):
about the theory of minstrulsy because this acting thing might
not be for me. Um. I mean, I'm it's a joke,
but it's also not a joke because I was so
my my my jaw dropped when I read what you
had were actually, you know, going for your PhD for
the subject matter. Yeah, And I'd love to tell people
about it because blackface minstrelsy is the first American art form.

(11:10):
It's the first art that Americans created. Uh. And there's
still so many like things that we think of is
like classic comedy bits and tropes that originated from minstrelsy. Um.
And so it was a really interesting thing to study.
And I've heard you even say that like like like sitcom,
like what we think of as sitcom, but UMPA has

(11:32):
its roots. Yeah. And so it's like now, being a
person who makes television, I'm really glad that I had
that background. Um. But at the time I was just
like in academia and was again like sort of good
at it, but I wasn't enjoying it. And the people
that want to be in that world. We're just not

(11:54):
my people. I really really enjoyed teaching and working with students,
and I was able to teach like when you're teaching performance,
like a lot of students think they're going to be
an actor or something, and a lot of them are
just not based on the numbers. But what was more
important to me was like I was able to get
students to like stand up straighter and be more confident

(12:15):
in their bodies and like use their voices to their fullness.
Nothing makes me want to dig into a human more
than a woman who only uses the top half of
her voice and I know there's more voice, and it
like if I meet her in a bar, I'm like, well,
we're gonna like I would love to get in there
and just just find the bottom of that register. Just

(12:38):
people have their whole voice. I mean absolutely, obviously I'm
in your club if you'll have UM. I also feel
like that the vocal equipment, the language equivalent of that
is people who say I'm fine. I mean obviously, like
sometimes we're just like we don't need to engage whatever,
but I'm fine voice that really sounds like somebody's trying
to convince you. But they're convinced you with like a
quarter of their range. I'm fine, Yeah, it's fine, and

(13:00):
I'm like, right, Actually, while we're here, tell us more
about teaching. Do you remember anyone specifically that you helped.
I went straight from undergrad to grad school, so I
was like the same age as or a year older
than my students, which was very strange. I didn't always
feel very effective, but I remember we did like a

(13:25):
class performance, and um, this student's parents came up to
me after the performance and we're like, what did you do?
Just like complete shot and I didn't even understand what
was happening. And I thought, like, we're their dirty words
in the show that they weren't, and they were like,
he never heard him say more than like five words

(13:46):
in a row. He's so shy, and he just stood
up there and gave like a whole performance. What did
you do to him? And I was like, I don't know,
but it feels so good to know that you've given
someone permission, yeah, mission, and like the space to access
a part of themselves that obviously they already had, but
maybe they just were never in a space where someone said,

(14:07):
like I want to see this part of you yeah,
I mean so much of this work is about um.
I mean I said, you know he held permission because
the it's the word that's in my title. But you know,
the reality is part of giving somebody permission. It's not
just like you know, finger wagging and saying you have permission.
It's about like saying, you might have felt like you

(14:28):
were in spaces that were too scary to handle you. You
You might have been right, but it also might have
become a habit. Yeah, so what if we put you
in a really safe space and and figure out who's
in there that hasn't felt safe to come out? Yeah,
and it has to be truly safe. I think sometimes
the word safe space has become like a buzzword and
people say like, oh, we want this job to be

(14:48):
a safe space, but it isn't. And like truly creating
a space where it's like there's no wrong answer here.
And I taught comedy writing, so I had students right
scenes that offended me, like as a woman, as a
person of color, and it's like, but this is a
safe space, and so we're going to talk about this
scene on its merits and no one's judging you for
having written it. The audience probably doesn't want to see it,

(15:10):
and let's talk about that. But like this is off
because also like how is that safe for you? Then?
You know, I mean it isn't always. But the good
thing is like when you are being um offensive in
a racial way or a gender way, you're also often
doing bad comedy. So as a teacher, it's very easy
to be like, here's why this is bad comedy, and

(15:32):
that's what I'm here to teach you. I've distracted because
my dog is sleeping and she's doing really cute little
barks in her sleep. What's happening? Do you think she's
talking to somebody some dreams. She's probably being real tough
in her dream. I think, are you walking her? And
like is she getting interaction or how is how is quarantine?
She's really missing the interaction because she's like a very cute,

(15:55):
little chunky dog and so normally when we walk, like
strangers want to stop and pet her. And I think
she sort of went through a crisis of like nobody's
stopping to pet me and might not cute me. More
like what's going on? I mean, she's all of us. Um,
So when you were teaching, you had already found second

(16:17):
city and you were already doing improvince catch. Yeah, I
started um studying at the second city while so I
did my masters and then I did my PhD. So
I was I started um studying a second city. I
think like at the same time I started my PhD.
UM So I was truly like going to school during

(16:39):
the day and teaching and then like doing comedy at
night and like coming in hungover to teach. It was
like a very weird totally. And what were you thinking
in terms of I mean, were you thinking as sort
of obviously as it is now that you were like
both studying performance and then also doing it and sort

(16:59):
of had like the theory and practice being like jammed
up against each other. I was, but weirdly, like the
school was not interested in that. They're like, oh, yeah,
this thing. Like when you hear performance studies, one of
the tenants of performance studies is that everything is performance
gender as a performance. And so in that vein, you

(17:20):
would think if you're doing drag or improv or comedy
or whatever, those would all be equally as interesting areas
of of practice and study. But actually they're they're interested
in like um important performance, like performance are and stuff
like that. So doing improv was just like, we don't

(17:40):
know why you're doing this, and it's not helping you
to be doing this, and um, it was so much
more fun and fulfilling. Was just like, well, I guess
I'm gonna go do that academia van yeah, and where
big thoughts happen and then they're sort of locked away
for only people who can access them. Um, And then

(18:01):
I would come to realize that I was doing sketch comedy,
like oh, I could do a sketch about the same idea,
and obviously it's like a very different form and can
be much less nuanced, But three hundred people are in
the audience tonight who can immediately access this thought, as
opposed to like, oh, I wrote a book and it
took like years to get it published, and I forced

(18:22):
my students to buy it. The students who can afford
this very expensive, rarefied education will be forced to buy
this book and maybe they'll read it, and maybe they
won't write right. I have a question from a friend
that is along these lines. She wrote to me and
wanted me to ask you, how do you maintain the
balance between being ironic or funny and being taken seriously

(18:43):
when you address thoughtful and complicated or complex topics like
where and how as a creative do you draw the line?
And then she also wrote, um, we love you women,
and thank you. That's very kind. Um, I sort of
it's a really interesting question. I don't always expect to
be taken seriously. Um. Just like as a young woman

(19:07):
of color in this business, I sort of know that
when I start to engage, I'm starting from a place
of not being taken seriously. And rather than like be
angry about that, I just enjoy the playing with that,
and like there's I really enjoy the moment it happens
in interviews and meetings in like from an audience member,

(19:31):
the moment where someone sits forward and they're like, oh, ship,
she's good at this is like my favorite and I
like to wait for it and clock it and see
how long it took me to get there. So rather
than like be mad that I don't get to start
with that and the way that some people do, I
just enjoy watching that person be forced to like give
me that moment eventually. Um. So I don't I don't

(19:54):
feel like a pressure about being taken seriously. I do
feel a pressure about being understood because one of the
things with comedy is like you could write something that's
super funny, but if it's about a topic that serious
are important, and people are unclear whether or not you
take it seriously, then they can, you know, rightfully get
very upset or not rightfully but pretend to get upset

(20:18):
because it's fun to like be mean to people on
the internet. And so I think, like less than being
taken seriously, it's like really important to me to be
understood and to be clear. And the times when I
have gotten in trouble, I can look back and say, like, oh,
you know what, maybe that statement wasn't a hundred percent
clear and there is room for interpretation here um, and
try to limit that. The other part of the question,

(20:42):
I think, which is which is feels really relevant for
me and for for a lot of us who are
trying to live in this space where where approaching a
lot of the absurdity of life with the absurdity it deserves,
but also with the gravitas that it deserves. If it's
like hurting people's you know, if this is if it's
heavy is um, it's like how do you figure out
how to be funny about things that are serious, because

(21:05):
that is something that you actually are an expert on. Um. Weirdly,
like as I said, I was not. I had to
learn to be a better communicator and as a kid,
like the times where I was most angry or most sad,
a lot of times people would laugh, Like just my
natural expression of my feelings causes laughter. Um, so I

(21:26):
found a way to make money off of it. Um.
But I think, like, so what you're saying is you
just talk seriously about serious things and people had people
fill in their own ships. I mean sometimes you do,
like there are certain jokes structures that you know we're
gonna work, and like if you can put something into
one of those structures, what does that mean? Wait, will
you tell me what you mean by a joke structure?
Just like when you've been doing it for a while,

(21:47):
Like there are just certain jokes that like work, and
you're like, oh, if I can figure out how to
say this in this way, it's going to get a laugh.
But also people will listen to it is the the
real thing behind it. So there there is some of that,
but there's also like I think a lot of times
laughter comes from like surprise, um. And there are just

(22:12):
so many things that are like obviously happening that we
either don't talk about because we don't want admit it
to ourselves or like we feel that we can't talk
about for political reasons. And sometimes someone just saying the
thing is funny because it's like, oh, ship, I can't
believe someone actually said it. Yeah, yeah, which which feels

(22:32):
like it's it's it's tapping into that like age old
aspect of comedy, that is the speaking truth to power part,
the court jester part. It's like, if I do it
with a little bit of a wink of ha ha,
I'll just I'll be the one who just says the
thing yeah, and then the tension release of like, oh,
finally it's been mentioned to someone said it the thing. Um, Okay,

(22:54):
we're gonna take a quick break and come right back.
Can we talk about doing voices? Yes? So, I mean,
first of all, um, a Black Lady Scotch show, you
write at least some of your own characters. How do

(23:16):
you figure out how they're gonna sound? Such a good question,
for example, like Trinity versus the Influencer girl, the most
annoying woman in the world. Um, because also like you're
you're also I mean, I'm I'm also asking because like
you're kind of like playing in stereotypes and vocal stereotypes.

(23:38):
And then also like I always feel like you're doing
it with a real like sense of I know what
I'm doing, you know. Yeah, it's like, first of all,
just fun because I started out training as a singer
and so like learning how to access those different parts
of my voice, and it's very fun to like bring
like the the trend ay voices more so in my

(24:02):
chest close to my real voice. She's a very honest person.
She's also not she's unrecognized, but she also uses that
to her advantage. She's not trying to be recognized, so
her voice is going to be a little bit lower
and quieter, and she's okay going under the radar um
whereas uh, the most annoying woman in the world. That

(24:25):
voice comes out of the top of my head, which
is like an opera register, and it's it's like both
someone who's trying it's incredibly difficult to speak from there,
like and she's a person who's trying very hard. Like
she's definitely a try hard but also she wants the
most attention she's working really hard for it, but she's
also not real. Like the fullness of your voice comes

(24:47):
from much lower in your body, so it's sort of
like a voice that tells you that a person is
being artificial. And one of the things that was interesting
about that sketch, Lauren ashes Smith, who's a genius, wrote
that sketch, and it was in the South, and I
was like, do I do a Southern accent? Because a
person who came from this place would have one, except

(25:08):
for that she's pretending to be someone else, so she
almost has like a valley girl accent, even though she's
not from there and has never been there, because she's
like trying to present herself as an idea of a
person that's not real. It's also like a thing about femininity,
like for what one woman is trying to do, excessive

(25:30):
femininity is useful, and for what the other one is
trying to do, it Isn't you know what I mean
to the idea of femininity is not a given but
a tool. Um, And we all know I get super
feminine when I get pulled over by the cops, you
know what I mean? Like we know when that tool
is to our use and when it isn't, and it's
very fun to play with. I love that. Yeah, I
mean I talked about this a lot because I often

(25:51):
say that this podcast is about how to use your
voice to get what you want, but what you want
is different in different scenarios. So yes, we have an
quote unquote authentic voice that sounds like it's I mean,
you know, from our actual anatomy and feels true, rings true,
But also we have more than one authentic voice. Yeah,
and like to me, like, the only reason to communicate
is to affect another person, And where constantly as human beings, um,

(26:16):
what's the word, like analyzing and thinking about how can
I be most effective in what I'm trying to get done.
Whether it's like you're trying to get your kid to
put their shoes on, is like how much raising my
voice will get them to do it faster? And if
I go too far with that and I make the
kid cry, now we're waiting even longer to to get
out the door. We're constantly like having those negotiations in

(26:37):
real life, and those are the things I think that
make acting in characters really feel real and lived in,
because those are the calculations that people are making totally.
And actually that's such a great way to put it too,
because sometimes it seems like, you know, anybody has gone
through any acting training knows that that part of the
sort of central way that the actors think about breaking

(26:58):
down you know, script written by not them or even
written by them, I guess, is like, what what does
my character want in this moment? And sometimes that feels
sort of calculated and disconnected, but it's a you know,
obviously important to remember that that's actually what we're thinking
about in real life all the time. We're just not
necessarily thinking how do I use my voice to get
what I want in this moment? But we are We're

(27:18):
just not necessarily thinking about it intellectually. Yeah, it's more
instinctive or we're or we're like constantly uh trialing different things,
you know, like you said with the kid with the
kid thing like whatever naturally comes out and then oops,
that didn't work, let me pivot, do you know? Um?
I actually, I mean I get really literal with that
because I'm me, and so if I have to tell

(27:39):
my kid to do something more than once in like
the third or fourth time, is when I have to
like raise my voice and then he does it, I
totally Oh my god, I sound so manipulative, but I
totally dropped my voice back down, and I say, so
it sounds like you're asking me to yell at you
because you only did the thing when I yelled. Is
that what you're teaching me? You know? And then he

(27:59):
has to think of out it? God, it does seem
like that's sort of what I was teaching you. Mom.
Was such an hussle. It adds a little spice to
my day. What can I say? But no, I mean,
but you're right with everybody, like we we were trying.
The reason we're all trying to have our feelers on
all the time and have a high EQ, as you say,
is because obviously the more that we can read a room,

(28:20):
the more we can get what we want, even if
what we want is just to be understood, not not
necessarily to like, you know, get something transactional from someone.
Did you did you lose me there? Sorry? That was
Oh I'm good. Can you tell me what the process
was of getting better at improv? Oh? Um? Really good question?
Like do you remember sucking at it? Sucking at it

(28:43):
is too strong, but you know what I mean, Like
the honing part this is gonna be so crunchy, and
is coming from a person who taught improv for many years.
I don't think that anybody sucks at improv, and so
I don't inexperience myself as sucking it improv. I think

(29:03):
what you can be bad at is being yourself on stage.
That like I think like when you're hanging out with
your family or your friends and people you're close to,
you feel very comfortable and that's probably closest to your
true self. And for a lot of people, when you
get on stage, when a camera gets into your face,
you get uncomfortable and it's very difficult to be your
true self in that situation. And all improv is teaching

(29:27):
you to do is to shut off that part of
your brain that's criticizing you or telling or making you
overthink everything before you say it, or telling you your
body is not good enough and you should hide it,
or whatever it is your brain does in that moment,
and you're training to stop listening to that and to

(29:47):
go back to your normal natural reactions, or like some
people describe it as like learning to play. Like when
we were children, we played um without a lot of
self doubt and and in negative self talk, and then
as an adult you learn all of these rules of
how you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed
to honestly tell this person what you think of them,

(30:10):
You're not supposed to honestly respond in this moment. You're
supposed to be like a good work or whatever role
it is you're supposed to play. And now all of
those thoughts are between you and that person who used
to just like, I just met a friends baby over zoom,
which is infuriating, like I should get to kiss that baby,
but um, she's you know, has a slight inconvenience and

(30:31):
she starts wailing because that's her feel She feels, I
don't feel good. Somebody fix it, and we like learn
so much to stop doing that. And all improv is
is going back to being that person who, when they
have a slight feeling, says or does the thing. Um.
And so I don't think I experience its experienced it
as being bad at improv, but I did experience being like, oh,

(30:54):
when I felt that moment of fear, I said the
thing anyway, and I got a huge laugh. And that's
true every time. And eventually I got to the point
where when I feel that moment of fear, I get
excited because I know what means a laugh is coming.
That is huge. That's because it's so that's so, that's
actually such a I mean, that's such a tangible way
for people to think about it who are maybe experiencing

(31:16):
the same thing, Like just to trust that that feeling
means keep going, it doesn't mean back off. Yeah, and
it It's changed my whole life. Like I truly believe
everyone should take improv classes. Obviously not everyone should be
an improviser. It's not a job. You can't make money
doing it. But everyone should take improp classes because it
made me better at everything. Like I was a person

(31:36):
who couldn't like go on vacation and relax because in
that environment everything is not like controlled and planned. And
I learned to yes and and just be like okay,
I'm here now, you know whatever, Like oh, there's a
restaurant down the street, I'll try that one. If it's
not good, I'll live, you know what I mean, Like
you just learned to go with the flow more. I

(31:58):
always I always, um, I realized yours a go. That
like a great way for me to figure out like
people in my life that I've sort of gravitate towards
versus need to like have some boundaries around is yes
and people versus no. But people, and I'm not judging
them like no, but people often are just like not
yet yes and people God God willing. But but yeah,
I mean the yes and energy just permeates into every

(32:19):
every way that we approach every tiny, tiny thing. Yeah.
It just allows you to like find things interesting instead
of scary, Like someone says something that you wouldn't normally
think or that you it's very different from you, and
allows you to be like, oh, that's interesting, tell me
more about that, instead of just being like, no, go away,
I don't like it. Which, also, by the way, is
the secret when you're around your kid too much hashtag

(32:42):
quarantine tip. You know, but I mean whatever, it's it's
too much. It's too much for everybody. But you know,
it is true that in those moments when they're being
you know, quote unquote annoying, you can also be like,
remain curious. Remain curious. This is such an interesting human
who is having their moment? What is this? What can
I learn about humans from this moment? Yeah? I am
not a parent, and so my favorite developmental phrases when

(33:06):
a kid learns the word no and they're like trying
to figure out how no works, and you're like, do
you want a raspberry? And they're like no, and it's like,
I know you do, but this is how no works.
You said no, and so now no raspberry, and let's
sit here until you figure out that you do. I'm
also a fan of like if my kid says no
a lot, I'm always like, so find one thing to
say yes to right now. Just try it, just try it,
just try it. And then he has to and then

(33:27):
he's like this was not meant to become a podcast
about mothering, but like you know what this quarantine times
everything changes. Um. I want to talk a little bit
about writer's rooms. You've been in a number of them
at this point, and a number of really cool ones.

(33:49):
It seems like, I mean, I'm referring to Samantha b
a Black Ladies Gut Show and also bless this Mess. Yes,
and also you've talked about the epitome of those moments
that didn't work and maybe previous experiences where what I've
heard you say is something about like when your references
don't land and it made me realize that one way

(34:10):
I'm always thinking about how power works, you know, and
one way that we can talk about power is when
you bring in a reference that somebody doesn't get. The
power is in people assuming I bet it's relevant, I
should go look it up. And when you don't have
the power, it's assuming that doesn't sound relevant. I don't
know what she's thinking about anyway. Yeah, that is so

(34:31):
a true in comedy and difficult to articulate at times
because people will say this is funny and this is
not funny, and that exists. But a lot of times
what you're saying is I understand this, and I don't
understand this. And because you understand and recognize something it's
funny to you, that doesn't mean that everyone else understands

(34:51):
and recognizes it. And it also doesn't mean that the
things that you don't understand and recognize are not funny
to someone. So, like, the example I always use, because
it's universally true in writer's rooms is that like men
will always like put in a Star Wars reference and
then they'll be like, now it's a joke, and you're like,
it is for people who have seen Star Wars which

(35:13):
you think is everyone, but it's not everyone, or or
I would argue even like people who have seen like
people who've seen Star Wars and also think that Star
Wars references are funny because I've seen Star Wars, but
I'm like, yeah, right, it seems seems trawn, seems overtrawed.
Well there's like that laugh of recognition of like, oh,
we're all on the same page. And you might have

(35:35):
that about Star Wars, but like in the Black Lady
Sketch show Room, so many moments like that are about
like things that happen in black churches that like, I
know there are many people who would be like, oh,
that's not funny, and it's like, actually, it's hilarious. You
just never were a child growing up in a black
church and that's a specific experience. Yeah, well in the whole,

(35:55):
And that's the whole idea of like you know, quote
unquote centering other people's stories that like we get to
like not have there be one kind of funny anymore.
We've got not one kind of point of view anymore.
And you know, most of us, I guess I don't
know the number, so I shouldn't say most of us,
but a lot of us are not interested in, you know,
just the thing that used to be funny fifty years ago. Yeah.

(36:17):
I think also, I've totally found, both in live comedy
and in television that audiences will laugh at anything that's
funny and they don't have to know the reference. And
there are ways like package things where like even if
you don't know the reference to jokes still works. And
for the most part, if it's interesting and compelling and funny,
audiences will enjoy it. And the problem is not that

(36:38):
the problem is like gatekeepers who assume the audience isn't
going to enjoy that thing. Yes, yes, I've heard you
talk about this. Yes, can you say a little bit
more about what you mean. It's like the people who
are kind of scared of the audience rather than the
audience themselves. But they also maybe are the ones who
cut your checks. Yeah, people who are like, oh, people
don't know what this is, or white people won't know
what this is and therefore won't work. And it's like

(37:00):
one of the cool things about having trained in Chicago's
that you perform in front of the audience that um,
first of all, very comedy savvy audiences who watch a
ton of comedy, but also people who are just like
driving down from Indiana to see a show and they
know everything, Like I don't know why, um, the powers

(37:21):
that be have like decided that like the Internet and
television and having friends doesn't exist and people aren't capable
of finding out about other experiences other than their own.
But for the most part, people do know about things
and are and are like hungry for it, like like
you know, if you get up there, I want you
to talk about you. Also, they like if people have
paid money to watch something they want to laugh at it,

(37:43):
They're gonna give you those first few minutes to hook
them in because they're like I left my house, I
got a babysitter. Be funny. Also tell me if this
feels true or not true. But it also makes me
think about you know that there's this sort of angel
truism that when we're really really specific about our experience,
even if it's when no one else has shared, it

(38:05):
rings true. There's something I mean, you know, the more specific,
the more universal, Like I'm thinking about it makes me
think of Hannah Gadsby's The Net. Like much of the
content of that of her life experience, I have not had,
but like the deeper stuff, I'm like that human to human,
I see you, you know, I see me better because

(38:26):
I see you, And I'm sure that like some jokes
about you know, black church ladies that I haven't necessarily
been in the church next to will still be like
I see what, I see what that is about how
humans are? Yeah, because you're like, I know what an
authority figure is, I know what a generational divide is.
Like I've experienced a nosy person before. Like the more
specific you can be, the more it becomes because at

(38:48):
the end of the day, like it's always about love
or fear or something that every human has experienced. Okay,
I have two questions that are actually I think two
parts of the same question now that I think about it.
One of them is about writer's block or jokes that
aren't working or sketches that aren't Like you were talking
about somewhere about the the second Act of Trinity and

(39:09):
like not quite you know, like having weeks of sort
of like what is that? So I want to talk
about that. But the other side of that, which is
like confidence in like being okay with not getting it yet.
Oh yeah, I actually had a great teacher at Second City,
Norm Holly and um, there you know, like the actors

(39:31):
right the show and you would write something. So there's
a lot like it feels like you're giving a piece
of your heart to your director because it's not only
a script that you've written, but that you're hoping to
star and it means your stage time. It's like everything
about the show is determined by your ability to like
be a decent writer. And obviously, like sketches get cut
all the time, and Norm, like very early on, taught

(39:56):
us you'd be like, ideas are like toilet paper. Once
they've been used, you flush them, like you you don't
need to hold on to this particular idea that didn't
make it into the show, or that did make it
into the show, and now it's going to go that's
not the only good idea you're ever gonna have. You're
gonna have five hundred good ideas over the course of
this process alone, and um, each idea is only good

(40:21):
enough to like serve the moment it's in and then
and then it doesn't need to go on any further
than that, and you get told that and it doesn't
feel real to you. And then like two years later,
you sort of wake up and you're like, oh, he
was right, but you have to like have had the
experience of doing it so many times. I also have
heard it talks about like building up a callous that

(40:43):
like every time something is bad or gets rejected, it
like it's like, um, when you first start playing guitar
and your fingers are like tenter soft, but you keep
doing it to like build up a callous there so
that like your rejection callous is stick enough that someone
says this is a good idea and you're like, all right, fine,
onto the next idea. UM. I think that's easier to do.
And like Sketch, where the script was five pages long,

(41:05):
it's harder to write like a two page thing and
be like, oh you don't like it, great, no problem,
I'm cool. I'm cool. But there is like having trust
in yourself that if this idea doesn't work for this
person a that's not necessarily everyone, but also be you're
going to have another good idea and you're going to

(41:26):
be able to keep working. It's a nice way to
think about it too, because sometimes like the other way
of thinking about it is that we're so, how do
you both, um care a lot care enough to you know,
I feel like you're really honoring your ideas and then
also not care enough so that if they don't happen,
it's not like the end of the world. Yeah. Practically.
One thing that I do is if I am pitching

(41:49):
something or have like a big audition that's like very
important to me. The second that I'm done with that thing,
I start doing another thing. So like I'm pitching a
shown now, and I'm writing a different script while i'm
pitching it, so that like when I get told no,
which I will about that thing, instead of going, oh no,

(42:10):
my one precious opus has been rejected, it's like, oh
that one got rejected. Well, back on track with this
other thing that I'm working on. Do you take your
own advice advice columnist? Um? A lot of the time.
I also have a best friend who will it is
very happy to be like, well you say, blah blah blah,

(42:31):
how infuriating and fabulous. I love your advice. First of all,
you have a podcast and you have do you still
do the advice column on Dame or did that turn
into the podcast they were together? I haven't done either
of them in a little while. Yeah, Um, your advice
is so good. I mean sometimes I read those sorts
of things and I'm like, oh, I hope the person

(42:53):
doesn't take that advice. But yours, I'm like, yeah, like
you got to the you know, like there's this one.
Actually to wrap it up with another another mom thing. Um,
sorry for non moms in the audience. You gave advice
to a lady who was who was putting herself last
and like hated her kids as a result. And you said,
I don't suggest that you focus on changing your feelings,
which is blaming yourself. I suggest that you focus on

(43:14):
building your life, which is taking care of yourself. Get
a hobby, take a night off a week to do pilates,
or that dumb thing where you drink and paint shitty pottery,
go out with your girlfriends. By the way, none of
this is useful for right now to quarantine, but I
bet you could probably like tweak it if you were
asked to. Um, you know that secret dream you had
that no one knows about, start quietly working towards it.
So I said that that she was putting herself last.

(43:36):
That came from you. She didn't say that, right, she
was just saying, like I hate my kids, and you
were like, I see through you to what's happening. Yeah,
that's why I like giving advice. I mean I like
giving advice because I'm a bossy person. Let's kind of thing.
It's like one of those words I enjoyed telling people
what to do. I would say, I would say, you're

(43:57):
an empowering leader. I like bossy. I'm reclaiming it. Okay, good,
okay good. I feel like women especially but people in general,
have been so trained that it's bad to be self
interested that it's often very clear what someone wants and

(44:19):
the only person who doesn't know is them, because it
feels dangerous to admit that you want an hour to
yourself a week, or like I another word that I
like to reclaim is ambitious. Like it's women are not
supposed to be ambitious to the point where, like, like
I was talking about go to jokes, Like one of
the things that I'll say, knowing I'll get a laugh

(44:40):
out of it is to be like, I'm very good
at this. People will always laugh at that because women
are not supposed to say it. And I think like
a lot of times you can clearly see that a
woman like wants something is ambitious or even just wants
time to herself take care of herself, and she doesn't
feel allowed to say it social say like five hundred

(45:01):
other things, and you just have to be like it
seems like the thing behind this is that your husband
sucks or like whatever, yeah, whatever, or that you're not
asking for what you need yeah, and so blaming everybody else. Yeah.
And I also, you know, I love I just love
listening to people and finding out more about people, and
I hate talking about the weather. And so I am

(45:24):
one of those horrible people who someone will be like
I'm fine and be like, how's your how's your relationship going?
Because I just I don't want to have the I'm
saying conversations. I would love to just dig in there
and find out what's really Oh yeah, you know. There's
one of the burn A Brown podcast episodes with Dr
Mark Brackett, who wrote this book, called Permission to Feel.

(45:46):
I feel it feels like a companion piece for Permission
to Speak. Um. But his whole I mean, he has
a lot of things I don't want to say his
whole thing is quote unquote, but one of his things
that really stayed with me is that, you know, we
were all in this I'm fine culture because we've just
been talk that no one wants to know what's real.
But for those of us who actually do or who
are like, I have the time right now if you
want to actually tell me what's real. Um, you know,

(46:08):
people have to be trained that there's space for that. Yeah.
I think also the fear behind that, which is very valid,
is like I don't want to ask this person for
care or I don't know if they're like available to
take care of me right now. But you can also
be honest without expecting anything back from that person, which
I think can be difficult to do. But it's okay

(46:30):
to be like I'm having a bad day, Okay, on
with the meeting, and not like make that person take
care of you. Like I think people see like two
opposite things, like either people are just like I'm fine,
I'm fine, I'm fine, or people there are a lot
of people who are very comfortable being like take care
of me in this moment, and we were like we're
in a business meeting, no, um. But there's a middle ground,

(46:51):
which is just being like, oh, we're in a tough situation,
like especially right now with COVID nineteen. Everyone's in a
tough situation. It's okay to say like this is tough
and then continue on with what we're doing. And you've
been honest. You probably feel a little bit better for
having been honest. But you're also not asking anyone to
like stop what they're doing and care for you. I know,

(47:13):
I know, not being a burden and also asking for
what we need. Um. Yeah, we're gonna take another break
and then we're gonna come back and find out who
you've brought in for us to listen to. Okay, we
are back, and UM, tell us who you've brought in

(47:35):
to the surprise of No. One, Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, can
we talk for a second about your relationship with Elizabeth,
your public relationship with Elizabeth. Yes, Well, Um, when I
saw it was like someone whose voice you admire, I
didn't know if it meant their physical voice or they're
like point of view, and I really like both of

(47:57):
them for her, so that's why I chose her. Also,
she is very funny, which I think we're we need
more funny in our politics right now. Um. So I
had tweeted, Um it was like in the primary and
I was just scrolling through Twitter, and like every tweet
seemed to be about like a different plan that Elizabeth

(48:17):
Warren had put out, and they're all these like well
thought out, comprehensively great plans, and so bringing us back,
I know it's upsetting. As a joke, I tweeted like,
do you think Eliza with Warren as a plan from
my love life? Just like as a comment on how
varied and comprehensive the plans were, And then she tweeted
back like DM me and we'll talk about it. Was
just like a great joke and I just loved that

(48:41):
she was that funny, and I thought that would be
the end of it. And then she actually DMed me
and called me on the phone and wanted to help,
and um, and did she help. She would have helped
a more together person. Her advice was basically like, no,
what you have going for you and like move from

(49:03):
a place of you're an amazing person who anyone would
be lucky to be with. And that is good advice
that I'm not at yet. I will have access to
that maybe in five years, I think always at the
plan that's plan Yeah, Um, that's I mean, I hope
I hope it comes before that. For the sake of
your confidence, if not for the sake of your love life. UM.

(49:25):
But also yeah, every aspect of that story is just
so fucking unfairly charming. It's also like so her because
even in that phone call, she was naming specific things
that I had done, like pieces I had done in
full frontal or like things that she thought would make
me a good partner. And she is someone who, just

(49:47):
like I think so deeply about everything that was like
that would have um citations mom's love life. UM. On
that note, I picked a little bit from one of
her town halls. UM. I wanted to pick something that
was not from an interview, but that was from you know,
on a stage, because I think that's that's really that's

(50:08):
the tough part. I mean, they're all tough, but in
terms of public speaking, how we bring ourselves. Uh, we're
gonna jump to it right now and listen to this
little bit and try to live in the world in
which this worked for America. I can remember how my
mother used to tuck me into bed at night, and
she give me a big smile, and then she'd walk
out of the room and she closed the door, and

(50:30):
I'd hear or start to cry because she never wanted
to cry in front of me. These are the times
that I learned words like mortgage and foreclosure. And I
still remember walking into their bedroom one day and laid
out on the bed was the dress. Now some of
you know the dress. It's the one that only comes

(50:52):
out for weddings, funerals, and graduations. And there was my
mother down in the other part of the room in
her slip and her style stockings, and she was walking
back and forth, and she had her head down and
she was saying, we will not lose this house. We
will not lose this house. We will not lose this house.

(51:17):
It's like so powerful in the specificity of her storytelling,
like the specificity of her mom wearing the slip and
being a person who has like one nice dress and
all of the like little details that she gives us
one it builds empathy within us because we have experienced that,

(51:42):
like I picture my mom in her slip, you know,
on a Sunday morning, and also tells us that she
actually lived a life like the one that we're living.
And that is become so rare in a politician on
the national level that they know what it means to
not be able to pay a bill, or to have

(52:04):
one nice dress, or to cry because you don't know
how you're going to take care of your children, and
you don't necessarily have have to have experienced those things
to be able to help people. But we've experienced so
many politicians who haven't experienced those things, who aren't able
to help us because their policy that they think is
super helpful is going to end up only helping the

(52:25):
people on the top because they don't know what life
is like. I mean literally, they don't get our reference
that we brought into the room. Yeah, and for someone
to say with that much specificity, like I have been
where you are, I have experienced it. It also like
very much places her age and where she's from. She's
telling you so much about herself, but in a way

(52:48):
that tells you that she's like you. Um, and it's
so effective. And now with the benefit of high insight,
we know that it wasn't that people still, like a
lot of people still chose not to vote for her.
I mean it was, it was, and it wasn't you know,
I think the electability issue or like I don't want
to take some of the wrong lessons from her not

(53:08):
winning because um, I think so many there's there's statistics
that proved that so many people wanted to vote for
her but were worried that quote unquote their neighbor wouldn't.
And this sort of the attempt at at game theory
NG it just fucked us all. And that's you know
that that then not the same lesson as the she
was a bad communicator lesson, Right, So we don't want

(53:29):
to take one for the other. Well, it's also like
on a very different scale, in a very different way
what we're talking about earlier, where like gatekeepers say they
won't like this, so I'm not going to put it on.
That's it. That's it. It's like you don't know who
they are. Like, just if you do what you think
is best for the most people, you can probably be

(53:49):
pretty effective. Like gaming out that other people might be
worse than you. It's just allowing you to embrace your
worst instinct in the service of people who you don't know.
That's right. And if we aren't voting for people because
we love them, we're voting for them because we think
that the maybe least bad among the people that probably
your neighbor will vote for. You know, we're just not
actually being citizens, like in the way that democracy wants

(54:12):
us to be, but also in terms of what we
can learn from her on a technical level, because you know, um,
despite her not having the day on Super Tuesday that
a lot of us were hoping for, um, there are
still just stunning lessons to learn from her public speaking style,
and you were talking to a lot of them. The

(54:32):
reason I picked that one one bit specifically, rather than
her in a in a sort of question and answer
a moment when she's a fucking brilliant yes. And her,
by the way, is that she told that story so
many times. She's told that story, you know, at every
single town hall, and that was right near the end, uh,
the one that I picked, which is South Carolina? And

(54:53):
and what is it to tell the same story over
and over one? You have to actually trust that your
story is worth telling. So that's like the that's early
on right from for a lot of women. Surely some
men as well, but but stereotypically for a lot of women,
we skip the part where we tell an actual story
about her actual life. And I found it on this podcast.
I mean getting people to actually say, you know, not
just like this is a thing that happens to people.

(55:15):
But I remember this one time that you know, we
there's just this little voice in us that goes and
no one wants to hear about that, but we're just
desperate for it. And when she says, like, here's the
thing that actually happened, let me take you there, We're like, yes,
we're storytelling creatures. We were there with you, were in
the room, you know. Um. And how much she was
able to embody it each time, even though it was repetitive,

(55:37):
you know, even though she'd done it before. And what
that is to just like actually sort of trust that
you can go there to that place in your mind
and then tell the story with sometimes different words, sometimes
the same words, and and really that you're just there
to the other part of it, connected to the to
the audience. That she knows she's doing that empathy building thing,

(55:57):
and she knows that she's connecting it to these big
ideas that tend to turn people off, you know, mortgage
and foreclosure um, just breaks people's brains. Um. And and
yet she's connecting she's I had I had a teacher
once say looping it through the heart. I think about
that a lot with her, right, like, we can say
things out of our mouth, or we can take that
moment where they sort of loop through our heart and

(56:19):
then come out of our mouth. And you know, part
of what a lot of us love about what uh
what a what a real like icon of female leadership
she is is that she's not afraid to be emotional
like that for a purpose. Not just emotional because she's
unprocessed on something, but emotional because she's saying, I'm bringing
this in because it's real and because it's huge and

(56:42):
it's a problem and we're all dealing with it, and
I'm not not gonna, like try to be more formal
than the story requires. It's also that she speeches that
you say over and over again can start to feel
canned because you've said it so many times, and it
doesn't because she's fully isn't in that moment, And having

(57:02):
met her, she seems to be fully present in every moment.
Like when I met her, there was like a group
of activists who were there to challenge her on something,
and she was so present with them and listening and
asking questions. And it takes a certain amount of confidence
to just be in the moment. It's much easier to

(57:24):
have those prepared answers that your staff gave you that
you know have been focus tested and are the best answers.
That's easy to do. It's much harder to sit in
the uncomfortable moment of not knowing what that person is
going to say to you, not knowing how to respond,
and if that person says something that's challenging to you,
not rushing them off, but sitting in it and saying,

(57:44):
let me understand what you're saying and where you're coming from,
or speaking to a group of this size, and not
just reciting a speech and hitting all your laugh lines,
but saying, let me be present with you in this
moment and tell you how this felt to me, and
allow you to see me in that way, and hopefully
you will respond in kind, which I find that often

(58:06):
people do. You will stop that running voice in your
head and be present with me because of my example,
and we'll be able to actually have this moment of
communication together. Yeah. I know I want to talk to
her about that as well. I want to know if
she has this that same Ashley moment that you're talking
about earlier, of like being my real self right now
scares me doing it, Ashley. Thank you. Thank you for this.

(58:31):
Um that you dropped some serious advice without even necessarily
a being framed that way, you know, but I really
appreciate you being on. Thank you for this. Thanks so
much for having me. I got to talk to another
human being, which is rare enough these days. I got
to see a baby. It's a really good day. Thank

(58:52):
you to Ashley for joining us. You can find out
more about her in the show notes or on our
website Permission to Speak pod dot com. I am doing
Instagram lives these days every Thursday at ten am Pacific,
so please feel free to pop in. I talk about
takeaways from this week's episode and interact with listeners, which
is obviously a dream come true. So please show up

(59:16):
there and or send me dms at Permission to Speak
pot on Instagram. You can also submit through the website
and UM then let me know what's going on with you.
Who do you want to have uh ME interview? Are
their big old holes in the conversation that need to
get filled? UM? I'd love to hear from you, guys.

(59:37):
Thank you to Sophie Lichtman and the team at I
Heeart Radio and all of you. We're recording this podcast
at various locations around Los Angeles on land that is
the historic gathering place for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and
you can visit U S d A C dot us
to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to Speak
is a production of I Heart Radio and Double Vision,

(59:57):
executive produced by Katherine Burke Can't and Mark Canton. For
more podcasts from I heart Radio, listen on the i
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
favorite shows.

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