How to Give a Speech Like Michelle Obama with Sarah Hurwitz

Samara chats with one of the all-time greatest speechwriters (she wrote for Barack and then Michelle all eight years they were in the White House, and before that Hillary!) and gets loads of delicious tips on world-changing speechwriting and room-changing delivery: what it really means to show not tell, how to start and how to structure the damn thing, and Sarah’s best advice for sounding like a real person up there and not “disembodied authority voice.” Plus they discuss her latest book on Judaism and how to be a good human.

 

Anne Deavere Smith’s book Talk to Me: penguinrandomhouse.com/books/168772/talk-to-me-by-anna-deavere-smith/

Sarah Hurwitz’s book Here All Along: penguinrandomhouse.com/books/572627/here-all-along-by-sarah-hurwitz/

More on Martin Buber: brainpickings.org/2018/03/18/i-and-thou-martin-buber/

More info on honoring native lands: usdac.us/nativeland

****How’s it feeling to speak up these days? Let us know at PermissiontoSpeakPod.com or on Instagram @permissiontospeakpod****

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's quote is from Talk to Me, a book by
Anna Davie Smith from the year two thousand about the
combination of theater and politics. In her mind, what you
can learn from one about the other and vice versa.
There's so many great nuggets, but here's a few tiny
things that she says. One is speaking calls for risk.

(00:21):
Speaking calls for a sense of what one has to lose,
not just what one has to gain. Speaking calls for heart.
And the other one on that same page is when
there is vulnerability, there's a greater possibility that something will
actually happen. Welcome to Permission to speak. The podcast about

(00:49):
how we talk and how we get ourselves hurt with
me samar Abe. Today's get is Sarah Hurwitz. I cannot
with this woman's brilliance. She was Hillary Clinton's speechwriter in
two thousand and eight. She wrote Hillary's concession when she

(01:11):
lost the primary to Barack Obama, and uh famously said quote,
although we weren't able to shatter that highest, hardest glass
ceiling this time, thanks to you, it's got about eighteen
million cracks in it, which makes me feel a lot
of things in hindsight. Um. And then at the time

(01:33):
Sarah got scooped up right away to work with the Obama's,
first with Barack and then with Michelle for all eight
years of their time in the White House, which she
talks about in our interview. I wanted to have her
on because I mean, you know, obviously she is a
genius at understanding the anatomy of a speechwriting, which is
so satisfying. She's so clear on how to create moments

(02:00):
and also how to sustain that for a beginning, middle,
and end. And it's so fun to think of going
back now to some of Michelle Obama's, you know, greatest
speeches and sort of seeing how that template played out.
Our conversation is super fun and also just so deliciously
full of useful tips. She shared with me such wisdom

(02:22):
on literally how to structure of speech, on how to
think about metaphors and use of our personal stories and
are kind of inner fire and inspiration, and also on
how to deliver speeches, or as I like to say,
how to be a person in front of other people.
And then you know, there's also this other's other side

(02:45):
of her, because since she left the White House in
t s, she went on to write a book called
Here all along, which is sort of surprisingly about rediscovering
Judaism as an adult, and I wanted to tease out
what the connection is between her speech writing and her
Judaism and her interest in sharing the values in the

(03:06):
wisdom that she discovered there as an adult. And basically
what I'm trying to say is, um, I made her
tell us the meaning of life, and I can't wait
for you to hear it. Truly, this was such a
delightful conversation. This is Sarah, Sarah, how are you? Hi? Hi? You?

(03:33):
I'm so glad we could do this. I know last
time we did the non zoom version, so now we're
like stepping it up. Okay, so I'm going to start.
So I'm so glad to have you here. First of all,
I just was saying that, Okay, so I want to say,
you're a speechwriter and you are a Jewish scholar. I

(03:55):
don't know if I wouldn't call myself as a student
what have in my notes as amateur Jewish scholar. But
I was like, I'm gonna let you do the do
the qualifying because I know I knew you were going to.
But I also think that those two things are relevant,
and so we're definitely going to talk about both. But
because of course this is permission to speak, we're going

(04:17):
to talk about the speaking side of it. Um up
top I. I. I have heard you say multiple times
that the process of speechwriting is dictation. You type it up,
you work that into a draft, you share it with
forty or fifty people. There is a you know, an
iterative process in there, and I want to talk about
the parts that are missing from that description. Okay, So

(04:41):
first of all, starting with dictation, obviously there's something that
happens before that, and part of it is on your
end in terms of the I imagine this sort of
trust and relationship and intimacy that you have to build
with somebody when you're helping them figure out their own voice,
and part of it is for them figuring out what
the point is of whatever it is that you guys

(05:02):
are working on. Yes, so I think that's that is
so true. And when you say dictation, like, I think
you're referring to what I would meet with Mrs Obama
and she would give me a download, but she would
say like, here is what I want to say, and
she would just basically articulate like complete paragraphs. Sometimes complete
pages of what you wanted to say, and I would
type verbatim on my laptop to really try to get

(05:24):
it down because it was so good. And you're right,
there is something that happens before that, which is the
establishment of a relationship with this person, right, there's an
establishment of a real rapport with them. And I think,
you know, that was something that I first had with
her in two thousand and eight when I helped her
with her Democratic National Convention speech. You know, this was
a moment where, you know, it's hard to remember now

(05:47):
because she's this like beloved, celebrated international icon, but back
in two thousand eight, you know, she was getting this
like all of this ugly sexism and racism, all this
you're an angry black woman stuff, which was just so disgusting.
It was just disgusting. It was horrifying and it was
disgusting and it was untrue. And you know, I was

(06:08):
working with her on her confesction speech in that context,
which is a really you know, intense kind of context,
and I just remember she was so clear then, she
was like, you know what, here's who I am, Here's
what I'm passionate about, Here's what I care about. You
I am. I am a mother, here's why this is
the heart of my life. I am a career professional.
Here is my my passions for public service. And she

(06:31):
just so clear with herself and I was just, you know,
with her in that moment, and she was articulating who
she is and what she wanted to say. And I
think that moment builds a lot of trust and connection.
So you're right, there is that trust and connection so
that by the time we sit down, she knows that
I'm someone who knows her, respects her, can compear what
she's saying to me in the context of who she is,

(06:52):
and then can kind of turn around a draft based
on that. How much I wonder now that you say that,
how much of that is um? I think all of
probably have some version of an experience working with somebody
who's either you know, superior to us or just an
intimidating person, and we're we're wondering how much we sort
of not along and create that space for them versus
really interject ideas and make it clear that we're we're

(07:14):
an active participant. Do you remember in those early days
and oh eight, what that kind of balance felt like
you in those early days. I was really there to listen,
you know, because I have my role. I really felt
like it was I want to know this woman as
as much as possible. I want her to just have
the full space for her just articulate who she is.
And I didn't come in with any idea I was

(07:34):
trying to impose on her. Right this this was a
speech for Democratic Convention speech. It was going to be
you know, seventeen minutes of her in front of the
American people, unmediated by any of this ugly press that
was just so nasty and racist and sexist. It was
just a time for her to be herself before the
American people. So my role was really just to sit
and listen to her and say, like, who are you

(07:54):
tell me about yourself? Which she did. You know. We
met in her living room in Chicago for like ninety
minutes to talk about this speech, and it was just,
you know, I was just so blown away by her,
by her authenticity, by her intelligence, by her passion, by
just like her clarity on who she is. And I
think that that loyalty to her own truth, that relentless authenticity,

(08:16):
it just defined everything she did in her life. And
so you know, there was just a real clarity around, like, yeah,
this is who I am, these are my values. Yeah.
It makes me think also of one of my guests
a month or two ago had this great comment when
I was asking her how she pitches. She's a she's
a TV director and and you know how she thinks
about who her audiences and what they need. And she said,

(08:38):
there's this first step where you figure out what you
care about. And she said, you have to check are
you dancing for you or for them? Yes? This is
you know, the most the single most important piece of
advice I give about speech writing and speech giving. It's
just say something true. But like, your first question should

(08:59):
not be what will make me sound smart or powerful
or funny, or what does the audience want to hear?
Your first question needs to be what is the deepest,
most important, and most helpful truth that I can tell
at this particular moment. And you've got to get really
still with that, and you've got to get very clear
on that. Once you know the answer to that question, okay,

(09:20):
then you've got to figure out, Okay, what can people here?
How can I tell this truth? Can I tell this truth?
Maybe not? But that's okay. You can figure that out.
But your first question, you've got to get very clear with,
like what is true here? Well, and it seems like
that's something that I'm going to call her Mrs Obama
while I'm with you, although of course in my mind
she's Michelle because I listened to her whole audiobook over
like multiple weeks that we went on like a together.

(09:43):
I love that. I love it. I actually love it
when I called her Mrs Obama because like she was
my boss, you I was her boy. But I love it.
I love it when people, when Americans want to call
her Michelle, it's because they love her and they feel
like she is their girlfriend. There's sister, right. She's cultivated this,
you know, this warmth and this authenticity with people where

(10:04):
they're like, of course, I'm gonna call her Michelle. She's
like my friend, and I think that's beautiful. Well, okay,
so this ties into my actual question, which is that
you know, and also you've worked with a number of
other extremely high profile people, and whether whether we're talking
about them or other people or yourself or for those
of us listening, you know, we don't always have that

(10:24):
that sense of clarity of what exactly we want to
be saying. And so this this process that you're talking
about of getting still and figuring it out, do you
have any wisdom around how to do that if you're
not sort of Michelle and walking around being like, you know,
I know I know my truth at every moment. Yeah,
you know, I really I try to think about, like,
what if I were giving this speech to no one, like, well,

(10:45):
would be like my like Jerry McGuire moment, Like if
I were just gonna like get up and like, you know,
give that Rip Burring speech that I actually like the
thing that I just most truly think, what would I say?
I think that's how I kind of get clear with
like what is really true here? You know, just kind
of get that that core beating heart idea. That's how
I do it. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And also, you know,

(11:08):
we're in this such a weird moment right now where
we're literally not public thinking right that it's sort of
a it's it's interesting to sort of think about how
to use this time in that way. Um. I don't
want to get on the like be super productive bandwagon
because obviously that's deeply problematic, But if there are moments
of stillness that we can find to think about what
really matters to us in this moment. Yeah, absolutely absolutely.

(11:31):
So the next part that is missing or that's not
fully revealed yet in in your step by step process
on how you have done speech writing is this idea
of working it into a draft. So I want to
talk about some of the if you will nerd to
your aspects of speech writing tools, tools of speech oratory style,

(11:57):
literary devices. I mean, I want to know how you
think about this stuff. I can ask more specific the
questions to than that, But first, how do you what
do you do with like with or even a beautiful
like blaw onto the page? Then? So okay, the number
one thing with speech writing is structure. Structure is destiny.

(12:18):
What do I mean by structure? Structure is the order
in which the paragraphs of the speech come. They have
to be in the right order. But you have to
have a logical flow that has a good pace and rhythm.
And that's that's sort of like telling has like a
good narrative arc. If you don't like, if you're writing
something and it's just boring or feels like repetitive, or

(12:40):
just feels kind of sloppy or floppy. It's probably because
it's in the wrong order. And when you I will
often print it out when I feel like it's not working,
I'll print it out and I'll look at it and
I'll be like, oh, this paragraph I have at the end,
that's actually my first paragraph, and I'm saying the same
thing on pages two and four and six. I can
delete two of those three things. Once you start doing that,

(13:00):
you start to realize like, oh, now I can eliminate
all this awkward transition language that I have when you're
trying to make paragraphs be next to each other that
really shouldn't be next to each other. So for me,
outlining is key. I always have an outline, Like I
always have a sense of like, okay, I've just gotten
this big dump of like amazing language from Mrs Obama.
Now what's the outline of this going to be? And

(13:22):
just to get really nitty gritty, I often start speeches
with gratitude, right like, thank you so much. It is
such a pleasure to be here. Thank you to this
person and that person. And then it will be like
and most of all, like thanks to all of you,
and I want to say something about the audience, like
you know, you're this group of people who are doing
whatever it is that they're doing. Right, Like speaking to
a bunch of nurses, she'll be like, you guys are extraordinary.

(13:46):
Here's what you're doing every day. And it's really important
to show in those moments like the whole show. Don't
tell everyone's like I get it, No one does it.
Oh my god, We'll just tell you're amazing, you're so powerful,
you're so compassionate, you're a hard working blah blah blah,
No one cares. What's better is like, you know what,
right now in this pandemic, you're the one sitting by

(14:07):
the bedside of people gasping to breathe, holding their hands,
holding up an iPad so that they can speak to
their loved ones. Oh, there's an image. You're the one
commuting an hour a day, risking your own life, taking
the train in, you know, like tending to people taking
a shower, coming home an hour later, worrying, Like you've
got to really make it that you can see it.

(14:28):
So I really like to start off by like celebrating
the audience's story and then connecting it to like, Okay,
so why are we here today? Like why am I
here today. You know, like all everything that you're doing,
what I've just been talking about, that's why I'm here today.
I'm here today because I care about the work you're doing.
And here's how I want to support you know, you
can kind of like get into it that way by
telling the story of the audience. That's like one powerful way,

(14:49):
I think, especially if you're a public servant, that's a
pretty good way to get in there, because you're telling
the story of your boss is basically the people you're serving.
So that's like a powerful way to get in there,
you know, to start. We could also say that no
matter what industry we're in, whether we're you know, officially
public servants or not, if we're up there on that
stage is probably because we have a connection with our

(15:09):
audience and because we're thankful for something, and then because
we have something to give. And so you just gave
up brilliant structure for like you know, hitting each of
those things exactly. And then once you've told their story,
you can tie it to your own story. Right. It's like,
you know, I'm here because like, you know, what is
your own connection to nurses? Was you know, like did
a nurse take care of someone in your family, are

(15:29):
you someone who you know? You are a nurse, look,
whatever it is. It's like, you know, why does this
matter for you? Right? Connect their story to your story
and then kind of go from there. It also makes
me think that, um, I've really been aware since I've
been doing this podcast of how and and really prior,
but it's been really obvious in a new way how
hard it is for women to tell their stories as

(15:50):
soon as there's a microphone there. Yes, yes, it is
to actually structure it in and say, now is the
part where I have to say, Okay, why is this
relevant for me? And really admit to yourself or give
yourself permission that you are up there for a reason,
which means you have a story to tell exactly and
you know what? And that's I think that that moment

(16:10):
is so hard because sometimes you think I don't know
any nurses, I'm not a nurse. What is my tie?
Oh my gosh, and you start to panic and it's like, okay, stop,
what's true? Right? It's like, Okay, it doesn't Maybe you
don't have some magical tie to the nurses. Maybe you're
not a nurse. It's but like, what is true? And
you can actually say, you know, I'm not a nurse.
No one of my family isn't a nurse. I've actually

(16:31):
never been taking care of by a nurse. But like,
but what what what is it like for you? Like,
do you admire nurses because of the incredible work they do?
Did you go to college with someone who became a
nurse and when you talk to that person, you're just
moved by their story, you know, like, just say something true.
You get so much credit, and you just say something true,
you do okay, so and and and back to the

(16:54):
technical stuff. Yes, now structure is on the larger scale, right,
and then line by line. I actually, for a completely
different reason, was looking at Mrs Obama's oh eight d
n C speech recently, and and she has this amazing
moment and I think it ties into what you were
talking about up top. I feel ridiculous even considering reading

(17:15):
it out loud, but I'm going to just so we
all have reference on what I'm talking about. But she
said all of us are driven by the simple belief
that the world as it is just won't do that.
We have an obligation to fight for the world as
it should be. And that is the thread that connects
our hearts. That is the thread that runs through my
journey and Rocks journey and so many other improbable journeys
that have brought us here tonight, where the current of

(17:37):
history meets this new tide of hope. And you see,
that is why I love this country. Which was you know,
an inference for anybody who knew that she was going
through this phase where people were accusing her of not
without actually saying it exactly. So I read that because
I want to talk specifically about metaphor here right, there's
this thread. How I want to just talk a little

(18:00):
bit about that technical side of it, because you know,
especially about English majors, like we noticed this kind of
thing anyway, we wonder I wonder how much that's just
like somebody's oratory style versus somebody else's, or if it's
something that we should all be thinking about, like how
do we make lists happen out loud? How do we
make momentum build? Yeah, so this is another tip that

(18:22):
I often give. Talk like a human being, and even
more important, talk like yourself. People when they get up
to give a speech, they tend to lose their minds,
you know, like the most charismatic, dynamic, interesting business person.
You know, maybe a sales manager, you know what, actually
business person. They'll get up to give a speech and
they'll be like, we need to leverage our verticals to

(18:44):
catalyze transformational results. For It's like, you don't talk like
that normally. You do not turn to your spouse and
be like, honey, we've got to leverage our platform to
catalyze It's like, you don't do that right. Politicians get
up and they're like, we need to put hard working
American middle class family value first. You've never turned your
neighbor and been like, Bob, I'm thinking, we just gotta

(19:04):
put hard working American middle class family values for Like,
that's not how you would normally talk, right, And so
you know, jargon, slogan, sound bites, the just me not
so into any of that now, metaphor poetry stuff like that. Yeah,
I think you can do that, but it has to

(19:26):
feel comfortable for you, right if it feels like you
are giving a speech where I am now doing the
meta for it's like, you know, that can be a
little It's like you can tell when someone is kind
of like giving a speech. So I do think you
can use metaphor, but it should feel natural coming out
of your mouth. Right, So like that idea of like,
you know, the thread that connects our hearts, the idea

(19:49):
of this new tide of hope in this history. Like
you know, she was talking to tens of thousands of
screaming people in a stadium. That's appropriate. That's the right
size language for that size audience and ven you and
importance of speech Probably not the right size for you
making a presentation to tend of your colleagues on zoom right,
Probably not. Venue and size of the audience and sort

(20:11):
of importance and elevation of the event really determines how
lofty you can be, how many metaphors you want to use.
You know, you've got to be a little bit more thoughtful.
And this was something I want to say, Like when
we first started in the Obama administration, we actually got
some real criticism where the people were saying, you know,
President Obama was so amazing on the campaign. He was
inspiring and awesome, and now he's kind of a boring

(20:32):
speaker in the White House. And it's like, guys, he
was giving campaign speeches to stadiums of thirty thousand screaming,
weeping people. And now he's giving a speech to two
people in the East room of the White House about
how the economy is collapsing. If he gave a big
like open change in the East room of the White
House to two people, he would look insane, right, Like,

(20:53):
the venue is different, and frankly, his role is different.
Right now he's commander in chief. He's now articulating the
Paul see the US to get out of a crisis.
It's a different tone, it's a different venue, it's a
different role. I really love your impression. It's like steered
on my mind now. Um okay, So final question specifically

(21:17):
about speech writing, although I'm we're probably gonna circle back
for some more advice at the end of course. But uh,
you know you've said you were bad at it when
you started, and then you found when you went to
law school you you ended up joining up with somebody
who had more experience in you. What was that process
of learning and getting better? So the reason why I
was bad at it is because I didn't really understand

(21:38):
that there is a very big difference to writing that
is meant to be read and writing that is meant
to be spoken out. Loud. There are two different forms
of writing. If you try to read out loud writing
that is meant to be read with the eyes, it's
going to sound very formal and kind of clunky. You know,
it doesn't work. I'm just gonna stop right there. I

(21:58):
just said, you know, period, it doesn't work. Period, And
you did not respond by saying I'm sorry, Sarah. Those
were two sentence fragments. The grammar was off there, the
punctuation was wrong. You didn't sounded fine. Yeah. I like
to call it. I call it like like, when you're reading,
it's the sentence is the is the formal unit, and
when you're speaking, the thought is exactly exactly No, that's

(22:19):
exactly right, that's exactly right. So you spoken language it
doesn't conform to the rules of grammar or punctuation. Written
language does. Written language is much more formal, and so
when if you looked at one of my speeches written
out on a page, you have an impulse to kind
of correct it. You have an impulse to fix the
sentence fragments and to punctuate it. It just doesn't. It
feels awkward, but when you read it feels natural. So

(22:42):
I think I had to really make that transition to
figuring out how to take language men to be spoken
and be comfortable putting that on a page in a
in a with a keyboard. Right, I had to kind
of make that transition reading those two types of writing.
That was really my biggest problem that I learned to
solve and structure. Right. I really from my friend and
this was a guy named Josh Gotcheimer who is now

(23:03):
a congressman. He was my classmate in law school and
he had previously been a speechwriter for President Clinton, and
so we just started freelancing together and he really taught
me about how you structure the speech to make it
like logical, one thought flow after the other, and again
how you write it in a way that's meant to
be spoken. And so those were the key things that
I had to learn. And then ironically you go back

(23:24):
to the writing side for book writing, right exactly is
that that is which by the way, man, that was
a struggle, right to have to be confined by the
rules of grammar and punctuation. It's like very frustrating and like, wait,
I can't start every sentence with because I can't start
every sentence with and I'm like they kind of all
built on each other. Why can't I just start every

(23:45):
sentence in this book with and and and In a way,
you also can because it's your book. And then you
have to decide, like what is my what is my
conversational written style versus my conversational out loud style? Right right?
And you know my book is much more conversation and
engaging that I think the average book, because I am
such a speechwriter. I think it's a lot of people

(24:06):
said to me reading your book, I feel like you're
talking to me, Like it feels like a person is
speaking to me. And that's very much my goal with
my book. I wanted to sound like a human being
just talking to you, like a friend just talking to
on a car trip. Exactly. All Right, we're gonna take
a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, we're

(24:33):
back with Sarah her with speech Writer to the Stars.
So book book after speech writing. I mean, it's not
lost in probably anybody that it seems from the outside
that the narrative is like once you've written for Hillary
Clinton and for Barack Obama and for Michelle Obama, then
you're like, I guess I'll just don't take a break
after that, like I'll go out on a high note. Yeah,

(24:55):
it's like exactly, I'm like, no, I'm nothing very lucky.
Maybe it's I mean, there's definitely a world where, you know,
I imagine where you go and do further speech writing,
and there are future heroes for whom you know a
collaboration would be exciting. But uh, I mean it's amusing
to me that you're like, I'm actually gonna go do
my own thing for a little bit. So and then

(25:17):
your own thing turned out to be this book on Judaism. Yes, logical,
next step from the White House. So I think it
made total sense. I mean I kind of want to
tease that out. So did it make total sense? Because
I mean the story that I know you've told before
is that you sort of happened upon a rehappened upon
Judaism in adulthood. And I wonder how the impression I

(25:42):
get is that you found clarity in Judaism, I mean,
in the in the values in the history, and then
and then you looked back and saw that there were threads,
threads metaphor, and there were threads of it in the
speech work that you've already been doing. Does that feel right?
Can you talk about that? Yes, that does feel right?
You know, yeah, I mean I grew up without much

(26:04):
Jewish background, randomly wound up just taking an intro to
Judaism class on a whim after a breakup, when I
was lonely, just figuring like, yeah, I know nothing about Judaism.
I should learn something fine, And I really was blown
away by it. I think what I came to realize,
it's like the secular world doesn't give a lot of
really deep answers to our biggest life questions, like I

(26:26):
don't think you very often, like turn into your colleague
at the water cooler or over zoom and are like, hey, Jane,
what do you think about God? Like what? What? Why
are we all here? What happens after we die? What is?
What does it mean to be a good person? But
we don't have those conversations. And I think that often,
like the solutions of the secular world offers to our
biggest life crisies like or struggles or transitions like I'm

(26:49):
having a baby, someone I love died. I'm really I'm
in some life crisis. Like it offers market solutions, right,
It's like by a really expensive car seat spring for
a really nice casket, treat yourself to a day at
the spa. Right there just isn't It's like, okay, but
that's in those moments. You don't need another product or service,
right You need wisdom and insight, You need a loving community,

(27:12):
you need rituals to guide you through. And you know,
this was what I found that Judaism had to offer,
and so I was just really moved by it. I
was like, oh, this is something that's kind of been
missing in my life, and so you know, I just
started learning. It was just so intrigued by it, and
you know, I think the logical next step was I
was like, I feel like the writing out here on

(27:34):
this it's not what I needed, right, Like, it's a
lot of like you know, there are these great like
intro how to kind of nuts and bolts book which
are great if you want to know the how to
of Judaism. Then there are these super sophisticated, esoteric academic
books which, like God help you, you have to like
really be motivated to slog through those. I was like,
where is the book that on earth studisms deep and
radical and countercultural and wise transformative advice for how to

(27:58):
just live your life today for someone like me who
doesn't want to sog through some academic book right, and
who isn't looking to have a big how to like, Oh,
I'm gonna go to synagogue every week. That's not what
I was looking for. I wanted the wisdom about, like
how do I cope with being human right now? So
I'm like, I think I want to write this book,
and you know, there is an aspect of it that
is like I felt like I was almost like speech
writing for the Jewish insights I had learned, right, And

(28:21):
I'm like, I'm like, okay, guys, you guys are really
complicated and you're kind of, you know, little esoteric, and
I want to like speech right for you a little,
just to like translate you for people like me who
can be moved by you. So there was that aspect
of so much of speech writing. It's translating, it's weaving
things together, it's making them come alive. It's getting to
the beating heart of them and conveying them to people
in a way that moves them, that touches their hearts,

(28:43):
that speaks to their souls. Like That's what I wanted
to do, And it was very much the speech writing skill.
So in away, I used the same skill, the same
core skill that I learned in the White House, but
it was like a little departure because it was away
from politics. The first time I wasn't working in politics,
and you know, a decade, which was a big transition. Yes,
and although everything that you just said about the secular

(29:04):
world rings true, it is also it feels true that
you were working on these big ideas when you were
speechwriting already. I was, and I think that's actually a
big part of the reason why I switched from you.
I was the I was a speechwriter for the president
for the first couple of years, and then I decided
that I actually liked writing for Mrs Obama better, so

(29:27):
I switched over to her. And I think part of
the reason is that, you know, the president has to
deal with crises and policy and all this stuff that
is his main role or his or her main role,
Whereas the first I mean he was saying his because
it was Obama, but his or her or they're like
all the all the pronouns. But you know, switching over

(29:47):
to her, she's not the first responder for policy crisis stuff.
She's really talking about things that are like what our
family is going through. She's talking about values and stories
and things like that, and it felt like more where
I wanted to go. So I think there was that
kind of aspect of of wanting to pursue that. Did
that switch from from him to her? What was the

(30:07):
timing of that in terms of when you had this
moment when you rediscovered Judaism. You know, I switched to
her before I re discovered Judaism. It was like way
back in two thousand eleven, and then I rediscovered Judaism
and like, so it was before that. But you know,
I think the probably the biggest switch between the White
House and the book was writing in my own voice.

(30:29):
Right when you're writing, when you're a speech writer, you're
not writing in your own voice. That is not what
you were doing. You were channeling the voice of someone else.
You constantly have their voice in your head, like, oh,
here's how she'd say it. Here. I still have Mrs
Obama's voice in my head even when I write where
she's like, yes, Sarah, you know what that transitions a
little sloppy. You're like, okay, You're you're right, Like it's like, Sarah,

(30:49):
you're getting a little lost in the weeds here, like
let's pick it up. Say nice things. No, no, she
says nice things all the time, right, Like I told him,
she does like a critic voice in your m she
says nice thing a no, no, she says lots of
nice things. But you know, when I'm writing and I'm

(31:09):
trying to like edit myself, like she has this very loving,
productive voice about like it's not it doesn't even feel
like it's funny. You can call it a critic Like,
it doesn't seem strike me as a critic voice. Right,
It was just like this very loving, like, Okay, here's
what we need to do. So I still kind of
hear that. But writing in my own voice, it was
like it's kind of terrifying, right because like before, it's like,
you know, I write the speech, I'm very anxious about

(31:30):
making sure it's right and I don't screw anything up
or hurt me or whatever. But when they hit the podium,
it's there's right, they own that that is there is
Suddenly it's like this was mine. And to make a
book about Judaism interesting, it has to be personal. You know,
I wasn't writing an academic or scholarly authoritated book. I
was writing about what I found to be the most

(31:51):
awesome insights of Judaism and like trying to write my
God chapter without talking about what I thought about God.
I tried to do that and it just didn't make sense.
It was like very boring. I'm like, wow, did they
or fifty people you shared it with tell you that
I totally did replicate my process from the White House
of like sending speeches out to fifty people I would
like send to like fifty. It was. It was crazy,

(32:13):
and they did. They did. They were like, this is
this boring? I don't I like, where are you in this?
I'm like, wow, I guess I'm going to have to
share the story of like the first time I felt
like I was in contact with the divine, Like, well,
that's not something I ever wanted to share, but like
here we are, and you know what, it's actually been great.
Like that's actually the chapter that people most respond to

(32:33):
because it's very vulnerable, it's personal, and they're like, I'm
really moved by that, Like that's something I yearned for
or that's something like I've experienced, and I just like,
thank you for being so honest. It's actually really moving
and satisfying. You know. Full disclosure, Sarah and I were
put together on a phone date by a mutual friend

(32:54):
a few weeks ago because I sold a book and
you're giving me advice on it, and um, and that
is one of the as I'm in the process of
book writing, that is one of the biggest issues. Um.
My amazing editor Libby asked me early on what is
the character of you on the page? Wow? And I thought,

(33:16):
what an amazing way to think about that. I mean,
that's that's what we're talking about, right like, because yes,
because we all it's a version of what I was
saying earlier, how we don't put our own stories into
our speeches. We have this this reflective thing that's like
no one wants to hear about that we And the
biggest mistake women make is they speak in the disembodied

(33:36):
authority voice. Do you know what I mean? It's like
it's like a voice that like and it's the good morning.
It is such a great pleasure and honor to be
here today to address you on this important It's like
it's it's so cringe worthy right where it's like, do
you greet your colleagues on zoom By being like, good morning.
It is a great But now you don't you're like, hey, guys,
great to be here. You can say that, Hi everyone,

(33:59):
it's so to be here today. I love what you
all are doing. I'm so passionate about this. Cop like,
that's how I talk, and that's how I'm gonna talk
in a speech on the page. I'm going to talk
about this then, because because you it's come back to
this and you've said, You've said somewhere that the key
to good delivery is the speaker being comfortable. Yes, And

(34:20):
that's what we're talking about here, and it's it's and
it's what's come up a number of times in terms
of like, well, what is our natural style? I mean,
what what is the thing that's true to us? And
I want to honor that. What gets in the way,
I mean a billion billion things get in the way,
but but the main thing that I think gets in
the way is that we feel that we should be

(34:43):
doing some generic version of the thing. We should be
doing what someone else had done, or we should do
what the person who knows what they're doing would do,
and so we end up playing at something for someone yes, yes,
and especially in more formal contexts. It's it's hard to

(35:05):
believe that we could actually be ourselves, I know, And
you know, there is some feeling. I think people have
a feeling that the generic version is safe because they
get up, they give the generic thing. It's not very good,
but it's not horrific. There's not much of a risk there.
It's just kind of met and it doesn't get you
very far, you know, it just doesn't. And I think

(35:28):
there are really ways to do the real and the
authentic in ways that are still professional. I'm not saying
you should get up and blather out your deepest secrets
or be too informal or inappropriate like that's not That's
not what I'm suggesting at all. But I do think
that there is a kind of just sober and passionate
sincerity that can be very very effective. I think that

(35:50):
that that can really break through in a way that
just like kind of moves people and gives you a
lot of credibility with them. Yeah, I think it's when
it gets hard is when you don't look or sound
like power historically looked exactly, which is an ongoing theme
in this podcast. But you know that if you're exactly,
say a younger woman who you know, does a lot

(36:14):
of likes and what linguists call hedges, softening your statements
with sort of or I mean, and that's just part
of your vernacular. You know, there is a there's a
strong argument to be made to take all of that
out of your speech, to practice doing something less natural
so that you can come across as more authoritative to
the people in the audience who might take you more

(36:36):
seriously that way, And that might be part of your goal.
And then there's a strong argument to be made to
like teach those audience members that there's a new younger
generation coming in and they sound different exactly. And look,
at this point it might not be either or you know,
it's like maybe you do things halfway, maybe you cut
out some of them, but not all of them. You know,

(36:57):
you do like that second question after or what's true?
Is okay, what can this audience here? How can I
reach them most effectively? And look, you've got to be effective,
rights like you gotta you gotta be thoughtful about your audience,
like who is this? What? What can they hear? What
can they tolerate? You know, I certainly while I say
the same things, the same content to just about every audience.
I say it differently depending on how older young the

(37:20):
audience is. Is this audience an audience as a certain
background in Judaism or not? What are their politics? Like,
I'm going to take that into account when I share
my thoughts. Yeah, I think it's really you know, you know,
there's a danger of getting too black and white about
it and saying like I'm either myself or I am not.
You know the reality is that we all of these
gradations in us and all of us are only communicating

(37:44):
in order to you know, fill in the blank thing
to the people that we're talking to exactly. And I
think women often forget that, like they didn't just they
didn't like crash that stage. They were invited, Like they
were invited on that stage for a reason. You know.
It's like they it's like imposter syndrome makes us think
like I've broken into this auditorium and crash this stage,

(38:07):
and I can't believe I'm here. No no, no, no,
no no no. You were invited because you have a
valuable perspective, expertise, your background something people want to hear
from you. You they want to hear from you. They
didn't send an invitation to generic person who holds this
job or this degree. They sent it to you, so
like you've been given some permission, you know, permission to speak.

(38:29):
You've been given some permission to actually give what what
they've actually asked you for, which is you what do
you think is um? In this conversation about how we
how much we bring ourselves and how much sort of
the world can handle of a version of power that
isn't what power? What power? Historically sounded like, um, what

(38:50):
do you think about the glass ceiling? Is what I'm
really asking? Yeah, what do you mean by that? Like say,
more like, what do you think? What is happening? How
do we how do we change the story? I mean,
Parliament is there's a massive cultural thing that isn't you know,
your obligation to solve. But in terms of the ways
that we can all take control of how we communicate,

(39:12):
how we listen to other women. I mean, I think
you wrote the Hillary Clinton's eight speech where she first
talked about the cracks in the glass ceiling, and then
obviously you know, I mean it's been a really tough time, right,
It's the time that says there are women running for
president and I just wore it up until it wasn't true,

(39:35):
And I still has a really different feeling, you know.
You know, I think the answer is like the more
women's voices we hear, the more it becomes the norm.
And I think, you know, back in two thousand and eight,
when I worked for for Hillary, back then, the conversation
was kind of woman be president? Can a woman be president?

(39:56):
I don't know, kind of woman be president? In when
Elizabeth Warren was running, it wasn't like kind a woman
be president? It was like can this woman be president?
And yes, will there be sex isn't. But it wasn't
this sense that like can we break this barrier? Is
it possible? I think Hillary actually made that a possibility
for us. Even though she won by three million votes,

(40:18):
even though she didn't get to service president because of
our outdated electoral college system, which is a broken part
of our democracy. She did win that election that she
did win the popular vote. I think she she showed it, like,
I think that's no longer a question of kind a
woman running for president? Can a woman be president? The
question is like which woman is going to be president? Now?
That's what I really think. I think the question is

(40:38):
which one. I'm more cynical because you know of what
happened with Elizabeth Warren, and I mean it feels like
it's an insidious version. Now it's not Yeah, it's not
the out loud question. It's like the quiet question. Like
you know, we think we're judging them on you know,
equal footing, but really we're not. And that's harder because

(41:01):
now we have to like show the entire American public
it's internal bias. You know, hold the mirror up, and
that's some meth and a half. I you know, I
do agree with you. I think it has become more
insidious and more internal. I think that's really true. I
would not be shocked if the first female president was
a was a Republican, the first woman was a Republican,

(41:24):
because I think in a way somehow that's like I
might feel safer to people. It's less radical, it's more concerned.
I mean, who knows, who knows, but god, this needs
to happen soon. I mean, seriously, seriously, it's like, I
just it's like, are you kidding me? I just I like,
all right, it is what it is, But you know, seriously,

(41:47):
I mean, are you not for necessarily the highest office
in the land. But have you ever considered running? You know,
when I was a kid, I was interested in running
for office, and then once I started working for people
who had to run for office, I was like, oh no, oh, no,
way right, like the money you have to raise, the

(42:07):
lack of privacy. It is such a hard life. I
I admire anyone who does this so deeply. It's it's
just not for me. I couldn't I couldn't do I
just know I couldn't do it. I don't want to
do it right right by the way good distinction. Yes, yes,
I couldn't do it. It It would just be very unpleasant,
Okay to tie it into some of my favorite aspects

(42:28):
of Judaism because I'm Jewish, and I mean, it's not
something that I've actually ever talked about on air, because
it's um not something that like it actually feel like
it is an essential part of my identity. And yet
reading your book, I reminded of my favorite things about it,
and so um one of my favorite things about Judaism

(42:48):
is the fact that we're in two questions over answers
yes yes, so into questions, oh my gosh, so into
disagreement descent abate like we are not into dogma that
is not our jam. Really, like you have this amazing
line where you said, um, if you can make a
good argument, you've got a place at the table. Yes, exactly.

(43:11):
That cuts through hierarchies in a really bold way. I
mean talk about countercultural. It really does. And when you
look at you know it's funny. It's fair that you
say that because like Judaism, American Judaism has been very
progressive for religious tradition on women's issues, gay rights issues,
like you know today in American Judaism, the American Judaism,
that of American Jews practice basically all of non orthodox

(43:34):
Judaism has been ordaining women as rabbis for years, if
not decades, has been performing gay marriages for years if
not decades, depending on the branch, like we've Actually, I
think a lot of that does come from that, that
valuing the dissenting voice, from that lack of hierarchy and authority,
and that constant questioning and challenging of like, wait a second,
why is this this way? No, I I'm going to

(43:56):
make an argument that's not right. I think I really
appreciate that about Judaism. Um, there's an orthodox rabbi that
you quote in your book, Rabbi Emmanuel Rachman, who said
a Jew dare not live with absolute certainty, not only
because certainty is the hallmark of the fanatic and Judaism
abhorrors fanaticism, but also because doubt is good for the

(44:20):
human soul is great so Jewish, I mean, by the
way we're living in such insane uncertainty, it's an interesting
challenge to try to reframe it as you know, an
opportunity to live an unswer right now. But I wonder, um,
but I do wonder how you're thinking about this, because

(44:42):
I mean, you said earlier, you know that part of
your book was figuring out how to be a good person.
Obviously that is a lifelong journey. I'm not saying you
need to, you know, share the wisdom from on high,
But I do wonder what you're thinking about when it
comes to uncertainty in this crazy the moment. I mean,
there's the election, there's the pandemic, there's a lot, and

(45:05):
I I wonder about the celebrating uncertainty, the celebrating doubt
part of it, that you could sort of share with
us how you're living with this right now and I
also actually want to throw in the the idea of
to kunnel lum, which you know, for any of the
non Jews or non activists, UM listening in means repair
the world, and it's sort of an essential part. I mean,

(45:27):
it's another one of my favorite parts of Judaism. It's
it's an essential part of how Jews think about um,
you know, our obligation to the world. Yeah, my gosh,
so much in those questions. You know, I think, no,
I love it, but I mean I think with the uncertainty,
you know, I think there is a spiritual value in
not knowing right and just saying like, wow, I actually

(45:48):
don't have control of this situation. Like there's a certain
level of I think, just like surrendering to what you
can control, just being like, wow, this is actually not
fulling my control. Here are the things I can control
and that I darn will control, but like there's a
lot that I can't. And you can fight that and
be like it shouldn't be that way. It's bad, that's scary,
that's in you know. You can do that, which adds

(46:09):
a lot of suffering, or you can just say like, okay,
this is not in control. Okay, here's why it's not
in control. Oh, it's because of bad leadership. Well, I know,
I am now going to act and do something constructive
as opposed to just spinning and being angry and upset
and helpless. You can say, oh, I see why this
isn't in control. Here's how I'm going to act wisely
to do something about that. I'm going to go be
an activist. I'm going to register people to vote, you know,

(46:31):
like that's it's that kind of a move to kind
of that seeing things clearly, understanding what you can control
and what you can't. That's hugely relevant. I also think,
you know, I think a lot about you know, I
love that. I love the Jewish approach to God, which
is one of great humility, you know, like there is
no dogma or definition or creed of God and Judaism
we don't define God narrowly because that's sort of idolatry, right,

(46:54):
It's like shrinking God to some tiny, little human statue.
And we don't. We We think that we're called just
even a certain way in the face of whatever the
divine is. And that's Jewish law. But you have all
these different definitions and ideas of the divine, which I
find like very moving many of them. You know, I
think of the idea that everything is God like your God,
I'm God. That man who I passed in the street

(47:15):
who says like can I can I help you to it?
And can you help me today? That man is the
manifestation of the divine. I think when you think about
things that way, it's uh. I find that helpful. I
also find a Jewish thinker named Martin Buber to be
really helpful. He says that God is what arises between
two people who are in a moment of just deep
human relationship, being fully vulnerable to each other. What arises

(47:37):
between them is divine, and I you know, I think
in this moment, that idea of of really being present
for people, not physically, of course, but through zoom, through
call however you can, and just being like fully vulnerable
with them, being like showing them a real ministry of presence,
I think that's something that kind of helps me cope
in this moment of uncertainty. It helps me feel less own,

(48:00):
it helps me feel like there's something I can do,
I can support others, and that does help me feel
more connected to whatever it is that is the divine. Yeah,
and um, you know, I mean I actually had that
Martin Buber quote here because I feel like there is
there's a connection there between what you just said in

(48:20):
public speaking that in this in the dream scenario, we
really rather than this feeling of oh god, I'm up
on the podium, people are looking at me and how
do I look? And you know, all this stuff that
happens that is part of the marketing, you know, as
you said earlier, and instead, um, instead, there there's a
different mindset that is really honoring the sacred space between

(48:42):
you and the audience. I mean, it's just it's a
really different way of thinking about, you know, those those
opportunities that we have, especially now when people are I
think everyone has been everyone has been uncentered, everyone has
been destabilized by this. Right. I don't know anyone who
is just like crushing this and like doing great. Right,
that's not I don't know if they are. That's wonderful.

(49:04):
Why I celebrate them, but I don't know them, right, Like,
that's just not, that's not what. Everyone is feeling a
little vulnerable, a little broken, And I do think this
is a time when that kind of very It's just
Martin Bouber like I and thou right, that that like
deep relation between two people that involves some amount of vulnerability.
I think it's it's powerful now, and I think people

(49:24):
are more primed to receive that right now. And my
dream really for whenever this ends and we're able to
sort of commune together in any sort of context, is
is that we bring some of that with us. Yes, absolutely,
absolutely scale it up, which is hard but but doable. Yes. Okay,

(49:46):
So I last question before break. I can't not ask
you this. You just did a silent retreat I did.
I just did us at a week long silent Jewish
meditation retreat. This is not my four one, I think.
And I did this one online via zoom just to
be clear. You know you cannot go definitely not no travel,

(50:08):
no retreat center. I did this one in my apartment,
just via a screen. So I saw all the other
participants in their little zoom square meditating with me. Yeah,
for real it because I know the look on your
face is so precious right now. I'm also thinking it
through because I mean there's some connection here between speech

(50:29):
and not speech. Right, Oh my, so much? Okay, this
is like this is so my jam you know, when
you're constantly speaking and talking and interacting with people, you know,
you're kind of pulled externally. You're not really listening to
yourself internally, and you're constantly distracted by screens and responding
and calls, and you're always talking articulating. There's something so

(50:51):
powerful about just stopping all of that and just being quiet,
just listening to yourself internally, just listening to what's around you,
just not having all those distractions. When you do that,
when you stop having to express and categorize and storytell
and articulate, you just your brain really slows down and

(51:11):
you actually get a little bit of perspective because I
think so often in our life some emotion comes up
and we react and it's all very fast. But when
you're on a meditation retreat, you can start to see, like, wow,
you know, sometimes in my life, if someone will say
something to me and that will raise this thing, which
triggers that thing, which makes me go back to this

(51:31):
thing in my chat, you can actually see the process
of how your mind works, and you get a lot
of insights into your life this way. It's a very
powerful experience. I'm a big fan, obviously, I've done fourteen
of them. So yeah, you're half exactly. I've spent three
a half months of my life just silent. It's so useful,

(51:52):
I mean for all of us who are trying to
find ways to carve out a little bit of silence
or you know, a little bit of meditat Haitian or
something that feels generative during this time. And you know,
especially for living with multiple people, and you know, for
me having a kid, it's he's around all the time. Um,
you know, it's not terrible. It's a lot of quality time,

(52:16):
but it means it means negotiating, you know, which is
like our primary communication style that we have together. It's
a very loving thing. But it's like, okay, well then
what about this? Well how about if you do this,
then I'll do that. But you know, I mean it's
it's crazy, but you know, then if I sit down

(52:37):
to write, my brain is so fried from all that
appreciating on top of you know, all the news and
all the processing. And so I mean, I get what
you're saying is a really powerful reminder that we don't
have to do some magical reset, that you just have

(53:00):
to figure out a way to create some space away
from people and not talk exactly. I mean, this is
the thing, and you don't have to do this for
a week. You can do me. You know, there's all
like ten percent Happier Headspace or gay jillion meditation apps programs.
You can do this in your apartment. There's a study
that shows that meditating just nine minutes a day can

(53:22):
actually change your brain. It actually has an impact on
your brain. So like, it's free, you can do it anywhere.
So we're trying no, but I'm also thinking about like
the challenge of doing something for you to day or
something that isn't you know for a lot of us
who dip into meditation actually are you know, sort of
okay at this point with doing nine minutes, Then the

(53:43):
question is, well, what if I do something that actually
feels a bit more radical or intentional. And there are
half day retreats, there are daylong retreats. You can do
whatever length you want. They're all and they're all online now,
which is kind of amazing because they're they're very affordable.
All Right, we're gonna take a quick break and then
we're going to find out who you brought in for us, Sarah,

(54:09):
who have you brought in for us, I have brought
in Malala Yusufsi, the brilliant and amazing young of Pakistani activist, advocate, hero,
Nobel Prize winner. She is just an extraordinary icon and
light to our world. I'm a big fan of hers,
and I think she has an extraordinary and very holy

(54:31):
and powerful voice. When you were watching her u N speech,
what were you thinking as a speechwriter? I was thinking,
this is magnificent, is honestly what I was thinking. I
just thought like, this is just so It's so perfect, right,
Like she was speaking very much in her own voice, right,

(54:51):
that was that was just her. It felt authentic, It
felt real, It felt uncompromising in a way, in a
good way. Right. It just felt like there was a
tremendous moral clarity to it. Just I am. And she
just delivered it so beautifully with such presence and poise
and passion. Um. I was blown away by it. Okay,

(55:12):
this is Malala, and I believe and not only people,
but even Death supported me. And Death did not want
me so early, so it said you just go, I'll
just see you later. And I'm very thankful to people
because it was the prayers of people in the support

(55:33):
of people that did not let me to lose hope,
and that is why I started. I restarted this campaign,
and I did not say that I'm not going to
do it anymore. So, of course, you know, with the
thirty seconds I am legally allowed, I couldn't show her structure,
you know, of course, the speech structure. But I love

(55:53):
that moment. I love it because you see you see
her humor right her her grace right there's just like
like my God, and she's talking about very serious scary
I mean, she's she's so young, and she has this
opposition against her that's very serious and frightening, and that
she's able to kind of look at it with this
this grace and humor. You just see her profound humanity there.

(56:15):
And I also love that. You know, her English isn't perfect,
right that, and because it's second third round, who knows
how many languages this brilliant young woman speaks, but she
keeps some of the imperfections, and I actually love that,
right Like, I actually think it's it's very authentic. It
doesn't detract from understanding. It's still excellent English, but it's

(56:36):
it's just natural for her, and you just you detect
also her gratitude. Right, She's really expressing gratitude there, which
is just so awe inspiring. It's like my cut. You know,
I'm grateful to her, and to see her expressing gratefulness
back to me is quite moving. Yeah, I mean it
really ties back into what you were talking about earlier
with allowing speeches to have a major element of that. Yes, yes,

(57:00):
absolutely right. She's honoring her audience, that's that's the thing.
And you know, and then she also says thank you
to death for not I know, say that. It's like wow.
To have that wow, that that like it's almost like
a wow, how would I even articulate that. It's like,

(57:21):
you know, to have this moment of like humor around
something so stark, it also just yeah, it's it's a
it's a real there's a really gift of like depth
and fluency in language and in you know, just the
ways of the human heart that she has in that moment.
That's really quite powerful. And I was thinking about the
word gift too, but in a in a slightly different

(57:43):
way because it feels like it was such a gift
to the audience that she gave there. I mean, you
can hear the laughter and It wasn't you know, paw
comedy laughter. It was a release of tension laughter. Yes,
that's I actually that Hannah gats Be. This is what
she does. This is this is Hannah Gatsby right where
it is. You know, it's not comedy laughter like that

(58:06):
laughter isn't comedy laughter. It's sort of like it's almost
like grief laughter. It's like release of tension laughter, right,
And she did this so well. She wasn't making light
of that. She wasn't diminishing the seriousness of that in
any way, you know, she was It was like something
that invites laughter but doesn't diminish the subject, which is
very hard to do. Right. That takes a real gift.

(58:28):
And that is a Tanna Gatsby genius what she does there.
It's like I think Malalagists did something similar there. Yes,
well I know, and I want to say it is
hard and it should be celebrated, and it is something
we can access listeners us. But but it requires that
we let go of that. I mean, I call it

(58:49):
the generic monster exactly, Carl, the generic monster. I just
there's nothing more unbearable than that generic monster, because it's
just it's so sad. It robs us. It robs us. Yeah,
I mean, it robs us. I mean and what you
said earlier is it it makes us feel safer, but yeah,
safer from from anyone seeing us or getting anything from us, exactly.

(59:15):
And when I see women doing that to themselves, I
just want them to stop and ask where am I
in this? Right? Where am I in this It's like
the question of like, where is the character of me
in this book? Where is the character of me in
this speech? Is this? Just just could this speech be
given by any human being on this planet? If so,
it's probably not a good speech, you know. Just again,

(59:37):
they invited you, They didn't give the invitation to the
generic whatever. They invited you, and you're kind of robbing
them if you don't show up. Yeah, yeah, Which is
the opposite of safe, because you're not going to be
asked back exactly. You're not going to be asked back.
It's not safe. I mean I think that, you know,

(01:00:01):
we should probably end around this note, but it feels like, um,
you know, I'm always worried about giving advice on public
speaking when I don't know the actual intricacies of each
of each of you listeners and of your industry, and
you know, I want to say that, you know, you
should trust your instincts. You know better than I do
what is safe and what isn't safe, and you know

(01:00:22):
what's going to make you lose your job. Uh. But
I do think that a lot of us have these
outdated notions about what formal and informal means. And we
have more freedom than we think we do. And you know,
to watch Malala up there, having survived, you know, an
attack on her life, talking about some of the most

(01:00:42):
serious atrocities that humans due to other humans and finding
humor in that and just speaking like a person, it's
a reminder that we can all do that. I also think,
you know, I'm always anxious about giving advice because I
also don't know. I don't know the gender of the
person speaking. I don't know the race, the ethnicity, all

(01:01:05):
of the sexuality, the gender, like all of these things that, like,
you know, make it a lot harder to be yourself. Right,
So those things are real. I want to name them.
I want to respect them like you do. You know,
you like people who have these various identities, like they know,
they know what's safe and what's not safe, and they
have a sense, So you should really trust your gut there.

(01:01:25):
I want to like not just the industry, but like
whatever identity that is part of you that you're bringing
with you, like got to be aware of that as well.
So you know, this advice needs to be sort of
taken in degree not you know, it's not all or nothing,
it's it's taking it in degree. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
and I think part of the point of the podcast.
I mean I joke that in every episode I said,
this is the point of the podcast. It's usually a

(01:01:47):
different point, but no, but you know, truly part of
the point of the podcast is that you know, don't
do things that are unsafe exactly put you in danger.
And if it's not a danger issue, if it's just
a comfort issue, can you push against your assumptions a
little bit and just add in a little extra of

(01:02:10):
you and then a little bit more and then a
little bit more exactly, And every time someone does it,
more people can do it. I mean, you sort of
see it. I think, especially if you're in someone someone
who has a position of privilege, power, security safety, it's
on you more because there are a lot of people
who don't have that privilege power, security, safety, to do this,
so like, if you've got that, use it. And I

(01:02:31):
feel like I am someone who does have that, So
I really do try to be very to be vulnerable,
to be authentic, to do this because I have that
safety that very few other people have, so I want
I'm gonna use it. And people often say to me,
They're like, I can't believe you just told people that
you don't want kids. That you're forty two year old
woman who's not married and you don't want kids, and
that makes it times hard for you to feel comfortable

(01:02:53):
in synagogues like that was very personal and I can't
I'm amazed you said that. I'm like, uh huh, because
there's someone else out there like who feels that way,
and I'm gonna I'm gonna be there for them. I'm
going to represent because I can, because I can. I
have that privilege. Yes, this is one of the biggest
secrets for UM, for anybody who's feeling marginalized, who doesn't
feel like they look or sound like what power looks

(01:03:13):
or sounds like, that our story matters, and not just
because our story matters, but because there's other people who
need to hear it that exactly and that turns us
from being just somebody who's speaking for the sake of
their own, you know, voice to somebody who's speaking for somebody.

(01:03:33):
And you know there's a stereotype, certainly for women, but
I have seen it free people that if we can
think of ourselves as helpers, we're doing this for somebody,
we give ourselves permission, we're free. I mean it helps
a lot. Yes, it does, right, it does. Now, that's
absolutely right, Sarah. Thank you so lovely. Oh my gosh,

(01:03:58):
thank you. It's delight. Thank you to Sarah for joining me.
You can find out more about her in the show
notes or on our website Permission to Speak pod dot com.
Every Thursday, I am now doing an i G live,
so head on over to Instagram and you can send
me questions in advance. UM. I would be thrilled to

(01:04:19):
interact with you guys, UM either live or of course
you can watch it thereafter. Also send me d MS
voice memos at Permission to Speak Pod on Instagram or
the website and let us know what is going on
with your voice. For our next mail back episode, We're
gonna do one and coming right up, and we want
to gather as many juicy questions as possible. Thanks to
Sophie Lichterman and the team at I Heeart Radio, my

(01:04:41):
family and cohort, and all of you. We are recording
this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on land
that is the historic gathering place for the Tonga indigenous tribe,
and you can visit U S d A C dot
us to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to
Speak is a production of I Heart Radio and Double Vision,

(01:05:02):
Executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark Canton. For
more podcasts from my Heart Radio, listen on the ihart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.