July 29, 2020 • 49 mins
Samara chats with the president of NARAL Pro Choice America about what public speaking and leadership even mean (hello, AOC), how to find hope in a dystopia, and what it is to know our history—her new book tells the story of the politicization of abortion, and how WE can change the narrative.
Host: Samara Bay
Executive producers: Catherine Burt Cantin & Mark Cantin, Double Vision doublevisionprojects.com
Producers: Samara Bay, Sophie Lichterman and the iHeart team
Theme music: Mark Cantin
Ilyse on IG: @ilyseh
NARAL on IG: @prochoiceamerica
Buy The Lie That Binds: barnesandnoble.com/w/the-lie-that-binds-ilyse-hogue/1137333853?ean=9781947492509
More of Ayanna Pressley’s video: theglowup.theroot.com/exclusive-rep-ayanna-pressley-reveals-beautiful-bald-1841039847
Email us at permissiontospeakpod@gmail.com – where do you need more permission?
And of course, please pass this along to anyone who could use it. If you’re feeling extra spicy, we’d be grateful if you left us a review or rated us on Apple Podcasts or the iHeartRadio app, and subscribed for your weekly dose of Permission to Speak :)
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's quote is from a Wall Street Journal piece by
Betsy Morris called why does Zoom exhaust you? Science has
an answer. She says, communication is an exquisite interplay of talk, gestures, movement,
and timing between people that scientists call synchrony. This complex
(00:22):
interaction is so basic that researchers who discovered it between
adults later found it happens in newborns and infants movements
synchronize with the speech of its caretaker as early as
the first day of life. The synchrony found in face
to face communication is possible over video in ideal circumstances,
(00:44):
According to a yet unpublished dissertation by Jinging Han, who
recently received a doctorate in Media Arts and Sciences from
Indiana University, but she too finds zoom to be exhausting.
She suspects that's because human are driven to achieve synchrony
and work hard cognitively to achieve it. On zoom quote,
(01:06):
we are working very hard to synchronize with each other,
she says, and that will be the next phase of
her research. Working hard there you go. Welcome to Permission
to Speak, the podcast about how we talk and how
(01:28):
we get ourselves heard with me. Samar Be. Today's guest
is a lease Hogue. She is a lifelong activist and
organizer with a true gift for making big, abstract ideas
feel like really personal and really human. For the last
(01:53):
seven years, she's been the president of NEY Oral Pro
Choice America, which is the other massive organization alongside UH
Planned Parenthood that advocates for reproductive justice at the national level.
UH Near all by the Way has tripled its membership
under her leadership to two point five million people, and
it's been front and center at the fights to reunite
(02:16):
families at the border, which is something that we talked
about in this interview UH the Kavanaugh hearings where she
literally over text was giving me my marching orders here
in l A. And I mean obviously in the fight
to push back against this insane wave of abortion bands
at the state level over the last few years. She
also made history when she spoke about her own abortion
(02:39):
on the stage of the Democratic National Convention, in which
obviously I asked her all about here. I wanted to
have a lease on because she is a friend, but
she is a powerhouse, an inspiration and honestly a true leader.
When we are so desperate or I maybe I'm so
(03:00):
desperate for someone to look up to. I mean, right,
we talk very specifically about how to find hope, like
not fake hope in our somewhat dystopian crisis. Um. How
she thinks about public speaking, which for any activists or
would be activists listening in or politicians coming up her perspective, Uh,
(03:25):
totally blew my mind. And we also talked about her
new book that just came out, The Lie That Binds
about how abortion became such a Whig issue anyway, I mean,
the answer has to do with a conference call that
changed everything. Fun fact, Alice is married to John Neffinger,
who I had on the podcast back in March. So
(03:45):
this is my first permission to speak power couple of guys. Uh.
And the second fun fact Elise and I met through
some mutual friends when I was living in d C
for this summer two years ago. Uh, dialect coaching gal
Gado on the new Wonder Woman movie, which we like,
took over the city and we're shooting, you know, everywhere. Basically,
(04:08):
what I'm trying to say is that my version of
our nation's capital is all about Wonder Woman. Etil's hoag Uh.
Which feels pretty synonymous. This is the last UM, I
kind of wanted to ask you first, Um, the question
(04:31):
that you've been asking of what are you doing to
stay sane? Um? You know what, it sounds silly. Um.
Partly what we've been doing to say stay sane is
a lot of family dance parties. UM. My kids are
really into family dance parties. And then, UM, I make
(04:52):
sure that I schedule at least at least one meeting
a day that is not on zoom, that is only
on phone, so I can get an hour of walking
around outside in a day at least. Do you do
you feel like you think differently while you're walking, Like,
do those conversations end up going differently? Yes? I do.
(05:13):
I think that. Um. You know, like change of scenery
and change of perspective is actually crucially crucially important in
the ability for us. You know, we all get in ruts,
we all sort of tell ourselves the same stories, and
it's really hard to change that. So any sort of
difference in our external environment will will catalyze differences in
(05:35):
our internal sort of monologue, and that's really important to
make sure. I don't know, Also, it sounds like both
of those things, um have to do with physically moving
as well. And there's something about like the you know,
the deep wisdom of our bodies that we sometimes forget
when we're sitting all day well, and I think we
forget how deeply connected our voice is to the rest
(05:56):
of our body, right that we cannot actually have a
powerful voice if we have a body that doesn't feel powerful,
how whatever that means to us. You know, people have
different abilities do that in different ways. But we have
to be focused on the idea of what makes me
feel physically powerful, emotionally powerful, spiritually powerful. All of that
(06:19):
coalesces into how our voice is projected and hurt in
the world. Well, And not to get like super patriarchy
from the beginning, but I think it is a massive
patriarchal move to try to separate our brains from our bodies.
I mean, so much of our wisdom does not live
in our head, and if we think it does and
only does, then like we're somewhat fucked professionally. I couldn't
(06:47):
agree with you more. I couldn't agree with you more. Um.
I want to talk about your Democratic National Convention speech
in you got on the stage in a stunning reddress
and said this, this quote that I think has resonated
with you know, the country for years now. It's not
as simple as bad girls get abortions and good girls
(07:08):
have families where the same women at different times in
our lives, each making decisions that are best for us.
What was your decision to give that speech? It boiled
down to, with the platform comes privilege, and therefore I
have to use this opportunity to speak to my own
(07:33):
personal experience as emblematic of such a common experience in
this world. And also not just that these sort of
things that we're talking about our theory, they're not theory,
they're deeply, deeply personal. Um. That being said, that was
a real journey for me. As I tell people, it
was never on my bucket list to get on a
stage in front of millions of yours and uh tell
(07:56):
some of the most innermost personal experiences of my life. Um.
And you know, I look forward to a day where
nobody has to do that for policy to reflect the
right ethical and public health outcomes. But um, you know
I did it. And and the thing that I always
tell people because it feels important to me is, um,
(08:18):
it was terrifying, right, Like I don't want people to
be like, Oh, she's just so brave and courageous that
she could do that. It was absolutely terrifying. It was
one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. Um So,
confronting that fear because I knew that it was an
opportunity and an imperative for me to do so, has
been a tremendous growth experience. Um But I don't want
(08:41):
to leave anyone with the impression that I just sort
of sauntered up there without fear, completely comfortable in my
own skin, and gave that speech. Was it scarier like
in the lead up or in the moment or after?
Like what was your relationship with that, with that fear?
How did it move? No, I will say in the
(09:02):
lead up it was definitely the most scary. And you know,
like you have the stage and you've convinced yourself that
you know the privilege and the responsibility pieces there, and
then you're like, well, if I floob it, it's not
just me flobbing it, but it's everything I stand for
and all of that, and you know, I you know,
I'm in a business where backlash is sort of part
(09:25):
of the daily experience, but that felt like even greater exposure. UM,
so I will say, uh, I definitely kept my eyes
trained on the Texas delegation in the convention hall because
I'm in Texans and I know where I sort of
draw my power. It's from my people rooting for me,
(09:46):
and they were, um and you know, like many things
when we confront our fears, they turned out to be
incredibly empowering. And so the aftermath was actually lovely. And
that what I found is that by exercising my own
voice that I um in that way, that I catalyzed
(10:06):
other people wanting to participate in their own ability to
tell their own stories. And there was a piece on
Scary Mommy, which is this mothering blog. Um, I know
you know, but I don't know if your listeners know.
I love it again, incredibly well read. Um. You know
about four days after my speech with a mother saying
(10:27):
I'm a Republican, I had an abortion and I'm tired
of feeling ashamed of it. I want to use my
voice to tell my story. And to me, that was
all the payback I needed, the idea that my voice
could help catalyze someone else finding their own. Yeah, and
that's why we do scary things. UM. I also met
(10:48):
you the day that I then walked with you to
a rally in d C. The summer of first met me,
I physically met you. I didn't know you through the
internet little bit before that. Uh. And and it was
the summer that we all found out about, UM, what
was going on at the border and the families being separated.
(11:11):
And I had reached out to attend a rally to
ask you, you know, as the knower of all things
in d C. And you said, I'm actually speaking at
this one. And and I walked with you and your
kids and then you, I'm sure remember what happened with
one of your children during during that rally? Do you will?
You will you tell me what it felt like to
be doing that? So UM what smarts referring to I
(11:34):
was speaking at a rally on family separation. UM. I
often do not take my children to these events, but
we chose to. My parents were in town, and UM,
during my speech, my son, who was then and remains
quite some quite sort of sensitive and empathetic, UM, I think,
was overcome by the emotion of the crowd and started
(11:57):
wailing and walked up to me. While I was on
microphone whiling, and I'm a mom, So I picked him up.
I comfort him. That's what I do. And um, it
felt very important to me to acknowledge that momentum again
as one of privilege, but as one that I felt
like so many people couldn't relate to, which is, here's
my son, he's crying, he needs comforting. The simple privilege
(12:22):
of being able to pick him up and hold him
and comfort him is something that was being denied to
so many parents in that moment who were undergoing an
excruciating and special form of torture and hearing their children
wail from other rooms and not be able to comfort them.
(12:44):
And my hope was that that fundamental common experience that
we all share, regardless of what our political affiliation is,
regardless of anything, could ground us and what was really
being lost to that moment, not only for those individual
parents who are undergoing that torture, but for a collective
(13:06):
soul as a nation. How did you prepare for that?
And how do you prepare for these sort of rally
type speeches that feel like there's an element of sort
of off the cuff and like bullet points that you're
used to talking about, But how do you sort of
collect your mind before these because they're all they're all,
they're not they don't always have your son in your arms,
but they all are somewhat emotionally fraught due to the
(13:28):
nature of your job. It's true, um, and I think
we all sort of gravitate towards different mediums for communication, right,
Like the expectation of my profession is that I will
speak at rallies, I will engage in debates, I will
go on TV, and those are all different for me,
and I actually experienced different anxieties around each one of them. Um.
(13:52):
I am an extreme extrovert. So actually speaking to rally
crowds is more comfortable to me. Not that I don't
get nervous. I always get nervous, but it is more
comfortable to me because I can and real time feed
on the energy of the crowd, as opposed to being
locked in a little television studio which is a camera
trained on you and not knowing what if what you're
saying is resonating in any way. Um, but you know
(14:15):
it's it has become really important to me to remember that, um,
my energy is as important to what the crowd will
experience as my words. Right, So what I'm projecting in
terms of my own emotional landscape and emotional experience, UM
(14:35):
is going to catalyze a response that is probably going
to supersed the words that are coming out of my mouth.
And so UM. It's not that words are unimportant, because
words are very important. And I do prepare, although I
really don't script out rally remarked because I think there
is an important element of spontaneity there and um and
(14:59):
relating to people in real time. But I really think
you know, when we were fighting Kavanaughs confirmation, and it
was so long, and it was so hard, and it
was so painful for so many people. UM, My, my
preparation was about legitimately, legitimately not faking it, being able
(15:20):
to express hope, optimism, and um, the sense of power
that came from being incollective engagement with so many different
people that would pay dividends beyond this single confirmation. Not
that the confirmation was unimportant, It was hugely important. But
(15:40):
I really wanted people to understand because the odds were
stacked against us, right, that even if we lost the
vote count on this confirmation, they could never take away
from us what we had experienced. Through this collective fight
together and how that would change the landscape of everything
politically and socially moving forward. And so when I thought
(16:03):
about my speeches for those rallies, it became hugely important
to be able to authentically express that two people, because
when we disengage, when we cease to use our voices
in our energy in charting out of future of hope
and optimism, the other side winds. Yeah. And you know, relatedly,
(16:26):
just for each of us in our own lives, if
we're not talking about you know, high level events with
the stakes as high as you're talking about, but just
literally speaking up for ourselves in a meeting or trying
to tell people what we do in a way where
we're actually connected emotionally to how much we care about
what we do. Uh. There are some lessons there as well,
in terms of like not going just for teaching people information,
(16:47):
but for inspiring them that you're that you're talking about,
you know, sort of thinking differently about what it is
to communicate that it isn't just words connected to ears,
but that it's like feelings and humans connect to humans absolutely.
I mean, that's what we have. That's our superpower, you know,
I say this all the time, regardless of whether you
(17:10):
work in the sort of corporate America or um, you know,
cultural theater and entertainment or politics like I do. Our
superpower is the fact that we can inner weave this
tapestry of voices together. That demonstrates the breadth and depth
(17:30):
of what it means to center stories of the majority
in a way that the powers that be who are
fighting for the status quo and resisting change, they'll never
have that because their stories are monolithic, their voices are monolithic.
They're often is passionate in a moment where people are
crying out for passion to catalyze change. And so we
(17:51):
should never tamp down our emotions in the ways that
we tell our stories and use our voices, and by
the way that in and of itself challenges one of
the prevailing notions of the patriarchy that emotions are bad, right,
that um we you know, somehow our emotions make us weaker.
That that is a story they have fed to us
(18:14):
for hundreds of years to keep us down. That our
ability to tap deep into our emotions to channel a
different future, that is our superpower. We should always use it.
I mean everything you're saying is making me cry, so
(18:35):
obviously I'm following you into that future. Um. There's this
element of public speaking, stereotypically for women, although I know
many men deal with this too, that when we're up
on a stage or whatever the metaphor is now, when
we're all eyes are honest in a zoom meeting. God knows,
when there's no public to speak in. Um that uh,
(18:56):
instantly we're worried about ourselves, and this the you know,
all of the anxieties come up, and often the answer
is to reconnect to the why why we're speaking and
the for the for them. Yes, And I wonder if
this is something that you think about when you're you know,
up there. It sounds like certainly in terms of getting
energy from the crowd, but that there's this idea of
(19:17):
speaking up for those without a voice and very vulnerable positions.
And then there's also this idea that it's freeing to
speak to hear our voice when we know it's for others. Yeah,
I think that's right. I'm you know, at risk of
being a little bit contrarian. Um. Well, I do understand
(19:37):
and lean into the privilege that comes with that platform.
I actually don't really think of it as speaking up
for other people as much as creating space and hopefully
incentive for people to speak for themselves. UM. You know
a little known fact about me is that I'm an
ecologist by trade, and UM, early on I learned that
(19:58):
the strongest systems are the ones that actually embraced diversity
and work together towards a common goal. And so UM,
the way that I, you know, the way that I
think about that is how can I UM model for
people who are reticent to speak the fact that speaking
(20:18):
up is liberating? Speaking up is actually UM where we
tap into our greatest power, and then, when offered the stage,
try and expand that stage for more voices. UM, because again,
in the collective lies our ultimate strength. I'm also an organizer,
(20:38):
and so you know, I've I've worked on lots of
different issues throughout the year's democracy, reform, climate change, human rights,
and I see, UM working on reproductive freedom is very
much a part of human rights. UM. But you know
a lot you know, when people ask me what drives
me as an organizer, A lot of it is actually
that incredibly powerful feeling when you see someone who felt
(21:04):
like they couldn't exercise their own power and their own
voice actually realize that they can. You know, one of
the greatest things that we heard coming out of the
cabin off fight UM was so many people saying, if
Dr Christine Blasi Ford could use her voice in such
an incredibly challenging situation, surely I can pick up the
(21:30):
phone and call voters or knock on doors, even though
that gives me great anxiety. And one of the things
I always tell people who choose to engage in canvassing
for elections is, yeah, it's hard. Knock on that door,
pick up that phone, make that phone call, and make
sure that you are telling people why you are doing it,
(21:50):
because people are going to be motivated by the fact
that you, who they've never met, is confronting your own fears,
taking time out of what everybody has as a very
busy schedule, and spending it this way. So the idea
of being able to sort of create a contagious effect
around that excitement and empowering from UM using your voice
(22:14):
that it's deeply motivating to me. I feel like you're
on a first name basis with every leader in Washington,
d C. When you think about like sort of the future,
if you were to talk to somebody who wanted to
run for office or become a career advocate, what do
you think is required of their public persona question mark
term something voice. Uh. In terms of the of of
(22:37):
what sort of rules are required, it sounds like the
main one that you're talking about is about connecting to
our bodies, connecting to our sense of inspiration, the why.
But I also wonder if we're talking really technically and
knowing that, um, we had your husband on this show,
do you have advice for for sort of how to
think about what it is to scale up these versions
of ourselves that aren't necessarily like the most you know,
(23:01):
straight white male versions of ourselves. You know, running for
office is a really intense experience, as I've observed. I've
never run for office myself, and you know, to be
quite frank, it's not an aspiration of mine. UM. I
think there are all sorts of way to ways to
find an express power, and you don't have to sort
of run profice to do that. That being said, I
(23:23):
am a big fan of people that choose that path
because we absolutely need great people in um office at
the state and federal level to affect change. UM. You know,
I think a know that no from the outset, that
your entire life is going to be scrutinized, right, and
in fact find that an empowering experience when I think
(23:45):
of some of the amazing leaders that have emerged, Um,
you know, just since Trump, and I could go back
before that, because I have lots of role models and
icons who predated Trump, Barbaraly being one of them. But
you know, if you think about and Alexandra Ocasio Cortez,
(24:05):
but even Hayley Stevens, who actually shares almost nothing demographically
or in terms of her district, what I see is
people who are proud of the lives that they lived,
bringing their full selves to their election campaign with no apologies.
And what I think voters respond to is a combined
(24:28):
sense of authenticity, pride in the way you've lived your life,
and an openness to hearing their own lived experience and
welcoming their voices into the debate. And so I just
really love that idea that instead of sort of shrinking
and fear that your whole life is going to be
(24:49):
exposed if you run for office, be like great, we
all make mistakes, none of us are perfect. In fact,
that people who decided they were going to run for
office from the I'm they were five years old and
lead their whole life carefully. Are the least interesting ones, right?
And so what does it actually mean to embrace that
as a positive and empowering thing and use your voice
(25:13):
as powerfully to talk about the mistakes that you have
made because we all make them, as well as the
lessons you've learned and the things you're deeply proud of
in your life. I think that is really what both
voters and our country is responding to in this moment um.
Fucking hell, least so good. We're going to take a
(25:33):
quick break. Okay, we're back with the least Hope, the
president of Nayoral Pro Choice America. So we're talking about
up talk, up speak. What did you wait? Tell tell me,
tell me real fast. What was it? What was the
note you got? Or is this repeated notes or this? Yeah,
(25:54):
I mean early, I mean early and like well into
my career. It's a thing that happens where almost exclusively
white man would be like, oh my god, you're so talented.
I love working with you, but you should know that
you do this thing where you sort of like end
your sentences with a thing that sounds almost like you're
(26:17):
asking a question and it really undercuts sort of the
point that you're trying to make. And again, this was
coming from people that I hugely respect and actually still
consider friends and professional colleagues. So it wasn't you know,
in many ways it was shared as I like, here's
it's it's like, I'm trying to help you, and I
didn't really have any context within which to process that.
(26:40):
You know that it's like very typical, as I understand it,
you're the expert. Um, it's gendered speech, right, like women
are much more likely to use up talk, and um, therefore,
is it just does it really undercut your power if
you do it? Or is it just that's not what
men do, and so men think it under you know,
(27:02):
like it's very confusing. And then of course nobody was like,
so here's what you do about it. So it was
just a little bit of being like conscious and sub
self conscious about the fact that it was a deeply
endemic speech pattern for me and I didn't know how
to fix it. Yeah, no, and like, look, some of
some of up speak. Up talk is just habit just
(27:24):
we've picked it up because the people around us speak
that way. Because yeah, that is you know, often a
marker of feminine speech. Uh. And sometimes when we do that,
it is disconnected from the meaning of the thought and
it is just habitual in this way where every thought
goes up and then it is actually harder to hear it,
you know. So are you taking a picture? Um? And um?
(27:50):
And so the question is like, you know, a do
you need to do anything about it? Do we need
to take out the markers of feminine speech to sound
more masculine in a masculine dominated world? Eight? It is
a question. There is not a yes or no answer
of it is you know, the same for everybody. Um.
But be is the version that we can look at,
the version where we're doing we're doing this pattern that's
(28:12):
actually not helping us communicate as well as we want
to communicate regardless of gender. If we can ever live
in a world that is regardless of gender. And also,
one of the things that I've come to, which is
sort of why I love what you do, is not
everybody has to do the same thing, right, so we
can acknowledge we have lived in for eons a world
(28:33):
that's dominated by a predominantly white, predominantly male patriarchy, right
and therefore, um. You know, if your ultimate goal is
to gain their attention to achieve something, maybe you don't
focus on fighting the tyranny of the up talk. But
at the same time you encourage people who do that,
(28:53):
so that transformation sort of builds on itself, if that
makes sense. I mean, of course, like the journey that
I am on, the journey that that many of us
are on is to um, both make small adjustments that
don't hurt our soul in the moment in order to
be heard, and also change the system over time so
that we don't have to be making these small adjustments
(29:14):
in the long run and the moment that we get
any power at all in any spaces that are scary.
You know, we are in a position, as you talk about,
of having uh, the privilege of our platform. What can
we do now to help the next people? I couldn't
agree with you more. Um, speaking of patriarchy, I want
to talk about your book The Lie That Binds, and
(29:34):
I want to start by saying, um that there were
some amazing blurbs to the book. My favorite is a
lisser master Monica, who said, um, to all feminists who
dream of overthrowing the patriarchy start here. Yeah, I mean
it writing a book, as as you will learn if
you have not already, UM, an incredibly intense experience. UM
(29:59):
that real is about putting your voice out there in
an entirely different way. And it's such a deep emotional,
end time investment. UM. And you get to the end
and you're like, oh my god, well everyone hate this,
will anyone read it? And so UM. You know, the
process of asking people who you really respect to read
(30:20):
and blurb your book is really scary. And so I
was really honored by the fact that some people who
have really been incredibly formative to my own analysis the
way that I think about my own role and my
own voice, agreed to um blurb the book and use
their own voices to lift mine up. It's just an
(30:40):
incredibly moving experience. I want to point out another one
as well. This is Elina Maxwell. She said the book
is quote an unflinching look at the true origins of
the right wing obsession with keeping half of the population
scare quotes in their place. It's totally true. I mean,
one of the things that we sought to do with
(31:02):
the book is really exposed the central lie of the
radical right right. They've gotten away very literally with murder
through the decades by actually wrapping themselves in this faux
moral shroud about claiming that they have investment in individual
(31:24):
outcomes of people's pregnancies, and they don't at all. In fact,
what that book lays out is a very cynical and
intentional campaign late actually pretty late in the history of
legalized abortion to weaponize abortion as a form of oppression
that would maintain the status quo that they wanted to
(31:49):
see and use our own ability to reproduce as weapons
against women pregnant people uh women of color specifically, and
so um Exposing that lie felt really important to thinking
strategically about how we move forward because they have gotten
away with it for a really long time, and in fact,
(32:13):
just some of the things the book talks about their
fight actually they mobilized into politics when they were not
that political. Prior to that, fighting school desegregation, they didn't
even land on abortion as a thing to talk about,
much less fight until the late seventies when Roe had
made abortion legal in all fifty states five years prior,
(32:36):
and so our ability to actually fight the opposition use
this moment as one of transformation for racial and gender
equity lies in really understanding the accurate history of a
radical right that has gripped the country, UM and having
(32:56):
that common analysis to be able to move forward, you know,
in in a spirit together that requires understanding how race
and gender and sexual orientation and sexual identity and gender
identity UM is all tied up in their campaign for oppression. Yeah. Yeah,
(33:18):
you've said a lot about this need to sort of
know our history know their history. Uh, And I would
I'd love you to actually just talk a little bit
more specifically, Uh, this idea, I mean, I heard you
say on an interview last week, they're really mad about
birth control being legal for unmarried women because they were
sexually empowered. But also this very specific thing that if
(33:41):
we entered the workplace and did not leave because of
unintended pregnancies, there goes their power. I think it's true.
I think one of the things that get sort of
lost because we have allowed them to write the history
for so long. And this is an attempt, This book
is an attempt to reclaim the narrative. UM is ut
People talk about nineteen seventy three and the decision UM
(34:04):
in Roe v. Wade as a transformational point and it
certainly was. And I want to take nothing away from that,
you know, like actually having legal and safe abortion has
made a material difference in countless lives, So I don't
want to take anything away from that. But we failed
to tell the story of what happened to year before
when the Supreme Court handed down a decision making birth
(34:25):
control legal for unmarried women. Right, and so there were
a couple of different things going on. One was just
this like absolutute indignation that women could dare to have
sex for pleasure without the repercussion of potentially getting pregnant
and being, you know, in a position of changing their
(34:48):
whole lives to parent, because we as parents know you
change your whole life to parent. Oh my god, how
dare women have sex for pleasure? And then complimenting that
was the sense of like, oh whoa birth control meant
that women were going into workplace, staying in the workplace
because they were able to plan their families, and challenging
(35:10):
the hegemony of power and control that men had enjoyed
over economic systems for a long time. Right, That they
were demanding pay equity, Oh my god, they were demanding
access to c suites and decision making. They were no
longer just biding their time until they got pregnant and
entered full time motherhood. They were actually wanting to see
(35:33):
through their own visions. And this was challenging men's ideas
of who was in charge in ways that we never
talked about and we never actually had experience before. And
so part of understanding the history is understanding why. You know,
people always expressed surprise to me that these people who
(35:55):
claimed to be anti abortion also are anti contraception, which
we saw last week at the Supreme Court or a
couple of weeks ago at the Supreme Court. Well, for them,
it really is truly about women's role in society, and
if you're not adhering to that, you are jeopardizing their
strong sense of what's right and wrong, what family looks like.
(36:16):
And um, god forbid, you might actually educate their women
about what they could do with their lives that they
weren't adhering to these rigid beliefs of women's role in society.
So yes, and um, in many ways it's working and
has worked. And now that you know, I I look
at the timeline that's like literally the length of my life,
(36:40):
and you know, one of the things that that you've
talked about, and I think one of the ways in
which you are a leader is to remind us that
progress doesn't always move forward in this straight line that
we all want to believe in, that we have to
actually make it happen, and sometimes it doesn't work, and
sometimes we backslide. And I wonder specifically about you know,
part of what I loved about Zerlina's quote up there
(37:00):
that this is an unflinching look at what the right
wing has done. Is this unflinching part, because I wonder
what it is that you do too, you know, handle
the hope side of your job. How do you, strategically speaking,
continue to you know, find your reserves well. I mean, look,
one of the reasons that we wrote so specifically I
(37:24):
wrote so specifically. Um, you know, I frame this book
as a collaborative effort because it is of Neral's research
and analysis. So, you know, one of the reasons that
we explicitly laid out in the book, the piece about
the birth control is both because we have to recognize
the hypocrisy in some of their existing stances, but when
(37:46):
they chose abortion, which they did on this conference call
casting about for a new issue to weaponize after previous
efforts had failed. They gambled, And what they gambled on
was the idea that there was still sufficient stigma in
(38:07):
our culture around both women who were sexually empowered and
willing to say, hey, I want to have sex for
pleasure and not just to procreate, right, and then this
very deep idea that if you did get pregnant and
you chose that carrying that pregnancy to term and becoming
apparent in that moment was not the thing you most
(38:29):
wanted to do, that you are selfish and a betrayal
of women in the most honestly, in the most biblical sense, right.
And women being called selfish has been a way of
keeping us down for a very long time. So they
gambled that those attitudes were so pervasive in society that
(38:50):
even for an overwhelming number of people who supported legal
access to a version, they wouldn't want to engage in
the conversation because if these are deeply held stigmas and
societal beliefs, and they gambled correctly, right, So essentially they said,
we're going to move an agenda that is not good
(39:11):
for or backed by the majority of people in this country,
and the way that we're going to effectively do that
is by buying silence, by tapping into these deep stigmas.
And they gambled correctly, and so part of this book
is to actually challenge people to reclaim our voices and
(39:31):
our own stories and shed that stigma and stand in
our own power. And you asked about my emotional reserves,
that's what it comes from. It comes from this understanding
that knowledge can lead to action, that can lead to power.
Power on behalf of the many and not the few.
And every time I see us inch closer to that,
(39:54):
it always starts with breaking the silence, and it always
fills me up and makes me believe we can have
exponential effect when we lean into generally conversations, but certainly
conversations that have held people down for so long. It
also makes me think that for those of us listening
who want to challenge ourselves to have more difficult conversations,
(40:16):
that practically speaking, what we can do to break through
that discomfort and you know, literally open our mouth and
literally have sounds come out, is is to tap into
that same collective power. I think that's totally right, and
you know, it's transforming the sort of definition of power,
like traditional patriarchal forms of power, is very monolithic, very homogeneous.
(40:40):
The idea that one person will go on to be
president of the United States, which is the most important
thing you could do, the pinnacle of success. And actually
I think that's great if people want to do that.
But power comes from living in community, centralizing the needs
of the collective, like those are the most durable communities,
(41:03):
those are the most durable civilizations, Those are the most
durable ecosystems if you look in nature, and that's the
That is our challenge in this moment to transform that
definition and power and weave all of the voices that
are being surfaced, resonate them, and put them into this
tapestry that changes our future. I'd like to live in
(41:29):
that world. We do live in that world. We just
have to get louder and louder. Exactly. I specifically want
to call this out that you said um in the book,
that you hope readers will think about how our own
personal struggles or discomfort with thinking or talking about abortion
might be preventing us from quote fully engaging in the
fight for freedom, racial and gender justice, and democracy that
(41:52):
lays before us it's this subtle, subtle stuff, right, I
think it is. I think it very subtle and very sinister.
And it is also the beauty of it is that
the first step is simple, right, scary, but simple and
(42:14):
within our full control to shake off that silence, shake
off the intimidation, and just respect and listen to our
own inner voice, make it an outer voice, and then
share it with other people. Final thought before the break,
The phrase I wrote down for myself is a hope
(42:34):
in a dystopia. Um any other advice that you have
on how to be hopeful? I feel like I turned
to you all the time when I'm like this horrible
thing has happened at least, and you like alchymize. So
I mean, look, I have Dirk days too, and I
don't want to suggest that I don't. And my sort
of mantra on my Dirk days is that throughout human civilization,
(42:57):
as travesty and injustice has been incurred, we have but
one choice, and it is to fight on the side
of the righteous or retreat, and retreat is complicity. And
therefore I just try and make that choice every single day.
But you know, my optimism comes from talking to so
many different people who are engaging in so many different
(43:20):
ways to make this amount of moment of transformation. Whether
you're challenging your business to be more inclusive, deconstructing peaks,
speech patterns so that they are more reflective of the
collective and and diversity, or whether you're fighting in politics,
it's you know, to me, the inspiration is in acknowledging
(43:42):
that I just have to do my part. I don't
have to do the whole thing because there are so
many amazing people doing their part, and that you know, like,
justice is a journey, it's not a destination, and it
is how we live our lives with integrity and consciousness
that matters, not that we can chalk up any individual victory,
(44:06):
because there will be victories and there will be setbacks,
and this is a lifelong journey. I'm literally crying. Um, Okay,
we're gonna take another quick break. Okay, I would love
to just dive in real fast with the final moments
I have with you to listen to. Uh, who you
(44:29):
have brought in for us? Would you tell us please? So? Yeah?
I mean, Anna Pressley is one of the most powerful people,
powerful voices then I have experienced in two decades of
doing this work. She Um is someone who inhabited her
whole life and brought to bear her lived experience and
(44:50):
the lived experience of her constituents to win a race
that quite honestly nobody wanted her to run in the
first place, and in doing so has really transformed the
conversation and the dynamics in Congress, certainly about reproductive freedom
and justice, but about how we think about individuals um
(45:10):
and their dignity in every aspect of life. It's just
been an honor to work with her. And she's a
phenomenal leader who is going to just rise, Rise, Rise, amazing.
And I pulled just the clip where she reveals her
alopecia and UM, and I want to I want to
just play this for everybody. This is my official public revealing.
(45:36):
I'm ready now because I want to be free from
the secret and the shame that that secret carries with it.
And because I'm not here just to occupy space, I'm
here to create it. I think I honest decision to
(45:58):
be public about her condition of alopecia was such. I mean,
it was an act of courage, but it was an
act of truthful honesty, and it makes her the powerful
leader that she is that, Um, you know, one of
the things I really took from that decision and take
from her generally as inspiration is this idea that if
(46:18):
we live in secret shame, we are writing our own power,
no matter what it's about. And so her decision, which
to me was like, she's beautiful no matter what, like
no one should feel like they have to hide a
medical condition, but I know, felt very um you know,
important and challenging. To her was spoke volumes about our
(46:40):
self acceptance and the power that comes from self acceptance. UM.
So I take that to her every day because I
have things I don't like about myself, and um, I'm
sure they're affecting me at a much greater scale when
I refused to speak openly about them. She is an
amazing leader. I feel so lucky to get to work
(47:00):
with her. And on a really technical level, this is edited.
It's lightly edited, but the camera just stays steady for
large parts of it while she just thinks, literally thinks
on camera. She picks her words. She you can you
can tell she's doing that process that we all do
and we're in our most comfortable state where we try
on an idea out loud and then we feel does
(47:22):
that feel right? Let me let me you know adjust.
That is a wildly brave thing to do, especially when
it's something that's really vulnerable, and it is something it
is what will make everybody fall in love with us.
But we have to trust that we can do that
in real time. I totally agree. I totally agree. I'm
so glad you're lifting her up in this moment on
(47:42):
your show. Thank you, Thank you for bringing her in. Um, Alice,
I know you're a busy woman and you have to go.
Thank you so much for spending this time with us.
Oh my god, I have totally loved it. So are
you are? You are not just a coature of superheroes.
You are actually a superhero. So um, thank you for
all you do. Thank you, my love. Oh my god,
(48:03):
I'm gonna go cry now. Um by love. Thank you
to Alise for joining me. You can find out more
about her and her new book in the show notes
or on our website Permission to Speak pot dot com.
I'm doing I do lives every Thursday, you guys, so
join me over at Permission to Speak pod on Instagram.
It's Q and a style, so please feel free to
(48:24):
put me on the spot. I dare you as always
send me d M s at Permission to Speak pod
on Instagram or submit through the website and let me
know what is going on with your voice. For upcoming
mail bag episode coming at you. Thank you to Sophie
Lichterman and the team at iHeart Radio and all of you.
We're recording this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles
(48:47):
on land that is the historic gathering place for the
Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit us d a
C dot us to learn more about honoring native land.
Permission to Speak is a production of Heart Radio and
Double Vision executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark Canton.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, listen on the
(49:08):
I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your favorite shows.
Today's quote is from a Wall Street Journal piece by
Betsy Morris called why does Zoom exhaust you? Science has
an answer. She says, communication is an exquisite interplay of talk, gestures, movement,
and timing between people that scientists call synchrony. This complex
(00:22):
interaction is so basic that researchers who discovered it between
adults later found it happens in newborns and infants movements
synchronize with the speech of its caretaker as early as
the first day of life. The synchrony found in face
to face communication is possible over video in ideal circumstances,
(00:44):
According to a yet unpublished dissertation by Jinging Han, who
recently received a doctorate in Media Arts and Sciences from
Indiana University, but she too finds zoom to be exhausting.
She suspects that's because human are driven to achieve synchrony
and work hard cognitively to achieve it. On zoom quote,
(01:06):
we are working very hard to synchronize with each other,
she says, and that will be the next phase of
her research. Working hard there you go. Welcome to Permission
to Speak, the podcast about how we talk and how
(01:28):
we get ourselves heard with me. Samar Be. Today's guest
is a lease Hogue. She is a lifelong activist and
organizer with a true gift for making big, abstract ideas
feel like really personal and really human. For the last
(01:53):
seven years, she's been the president of NEY Oral Pro
Choice America, which is the other massive organization alongside UH
Planned Parenthood that advocates for reproductive justice at the national level.
UH Near all by the Way has tripled its membership
under her leadership to two point five million people, and
it's been front and center at the fights to reunite
(02:16):
families at the border, which is something that we talked
about in this interview UH the Kavanaugh hearings where she
literally over text was giving me my marching orders here
in l A. And I mean obviously in the fight
to push back against this insane wave of abortion bands
at the state level over the last few years. She
also made history when she spoke about her own abortion
(02:39):
on the stage of the Democratic National Convention, in which
obviously I asked her all about here. I wanted to
have a lease on because she is a friend, but
she is a powerhouse, an inspiration and honestly a true leader.
When we are so desperate or I maybe I'm so
(03:00):
desperate for someone to look up to. I mean, right,
we talk very specifically about how to find hope, like
not fake hope in our somewhat dystopian crisis. Um. How
she thinks about public speaking, which for any activists or
would be activists listening in or politicians coming up her perspective, Uh,
(03:25):
totally blew my mind. And we also talked about her
new book that just came out, The Lie That Binds
about how abortion became such a Whig issue anyway, I mean,
the answer has to do with a conference call that
changed everything. Fun fact, Alice is married to John Neffinger,
who I had on the podcast back in March. So
(03:45):
this is my first permission to speak power couple of guys. Uh.
And the second fun fact Elise and I met through
some mutual friends when I was living in d C
for this summer two years ago. Uh, dialect coaching gal
Gado on the new Wonder Woman movie, which we like,
took over the city and we're shooting, you know, everywhere. Basically,
(04:08):
what I'm trying to say is that my version of
our nation's capital is all about Wonder Woman. Etil's hoag Uh.
Which feels pretty synonymous. This is the last UM, I
kind of wanted to ask you first, Um, the question
(04:31):
that you've been asking of what are you doing to
stay sane? Um? You know what, it sounds silly. Um.
Partly what we've been doing to say stay sane is
a lot of family dance parties. UM. My kids are
really into family dance parties. And then, UM, I make
(04:52):
sure that I schedule at least at least one meeting
a day that is not on zoom, that is only
on phone, so I can get an hour of walking
around outside in a day at least. Do you do
you feel like you think differently while you're walking, Like,
do those conversations end up going differently? Yes? I do.
(05:13):
I think that. Um. You know, like change of scenery
and change of perspective is actually crucially crucially important in
the ability for us. You know, we all get in ruts,
we all sort of tell ourselves the same stories, and
it's really hard to change that. So any sort of
difference in our external environment will will catalyze differences in
(05:35):
our internal sort of monologue, and that's really important to
make sure. I don't know, Also, it sounds like both
of those things, um have to do with physically moving
as well. And there's something about like the you know,
the deep wisdom of our bodies that we sometimes forget
when we're sitting all day well, and I think we
forget how deeply connected our voice is to the rest
(05:56):
of our body, right that we cannot actually have a
powerful voice if we have a body that doesn't feel powerful,
how whatever that means to us. You know, people have
different abilities do that in different ways. But we have
to be focused on the idea of what makes me
feel physically powerful, emotionally powerful, spiritually powerful. All of that
(06:19):
coalesces into how our voice is projected and hurt in
the world. Well, And not to get like super patriarchy
from the beginning, but I think it is a massive
patriarchal move to try to separate our brains from our bodies.
I mean, so much of our wisdom does not live
in our head, and if we think it does and
only does, then like we're somewhat fucked professionally. I couldn't
(06:47):
agree with you more. I couldn't agree with you more. Um.
I want to talk about your Democratic National Convention speech
in you got on the stage in a stunning reddress
and said this, this quote that I think has resonated
with you know, the country for years now. It's not
as simple as bad girls get abortions and good girls
(07:08):
have families where the same women at different times in
our lives, each making decisions that are best for us.
What was your decision to give that speech? It boiled
down to, with the platform comes privilege, and therefore I
have to use this opportunity to speak to my own
(07:33):
personal experience as emblematic of such a common experience in
this world. And also not just that these sort of
things that we're talking about our theory, they're not theory,
they're deeply, deeply personal. Um. That being said, that was
a real journey for me. As I tell people, it
was never on my bucket list to get on a
stage in front of millions of yours and uh tell
(07:56):
some of the most innermost personal experiences of my life. Um.
And you know, I look forward to a day where
nobody has to do that for policy to reflect the
right ethical and public health outcomes. But um, you know
I did it. And and the thing that I always
tell people because it feels important to me is, um,
(08:18):
it was terrifying, right, Like I don't want people to
be like, Oh, she's just so brave and courageous that
she could do that. It was absolutely terrifying. It was
one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. Um So,
confronting that fear because I knew that it was an
opportunity and an imperative for me to do so, has
been a tremendous growth experience. Um But I don't want
(08:41):
to leave anyone with the impression that I just sort
of sauntered up there without fear, completely comfortable in my
own skin, and gave that speech. Was it scarier like
in the lead up or in the moment or after?
Like what was your relationship with that, with that fear?
How did it move? No, I will say in the
(09:02):
lead up it was definitely the most scary. And you know,
like you have the stage and you've convinced yourself that
you know the privilege and the responsibility pieces there, and
then you're like, well, if I floob it, it's not
just me flobbing it, but it's everything I stand for
and all of that, and you know, I you know,
I'm in a business where backlash is sort of part
(09:25):
of the daily experience, but that felt like even greater exposure. UM,
so I will say, uh, I definitely kept my eyes
trained on the Texas delegation in the convention hall because
I'm in Texans and I know where I sort of
draw my power. It's from my people rooting for me,
(09:46):
and they were, um and you know, like many things
when we confront our fears, they turned out to be
incredibly empowering. And so the aftermath was actually lovely. And
that what I found is that by exercising my own
voice that I um in that way, that I catalyzed
(10:06):
other people wanting to participate in their own ability to
tell their own stories. And there was a piece on
Scary Mommy, which is this mothering blog. Um, I know
you know, but I don't know if your listeners know.
I love it again, incredibly well read. Um. You know
about four days after my speech with a mother saying
(10:27):
I'm a Republican, I had an abortion and I'm tired
of feeling ashamed of it. I want to use my
voice to tell my story. And to me, that was
all the payback I needed, the idea that my voice
could help catalyze someone else finding their own. Yeah, and
that's why we do scary things. UM. I also met
(10:48):
you the day that I then walked with you to
a rally in d C. The summer of first met me,
I physically met you. I didn't know you through the
internet little bit before that. Uh. And and it was
the summer that we all found out about, UM, what
was going on at the border and the families being separated.
(11:11):
And I had reached out to attend a rally to
ask you, you know, as the knower of all things
in d C. And you said, I'm actually speaking at
this one. And and I walked with you and your
kids and then you, I'm sure remember what happened with
one of your children during during that rally? Do you will?
You will you tell me what it felt like to
be doing that? So UM what smarts referring to I
(11:34):
was speaking at a rally on family separation. UM. I
often do not take my children to these events, but
we chose to. My parents were in town, and UM,
during my speech, my son, who was then and remains
quite some quite sort of sensitive and empathetic, UM, I think,
was overcome by the emotion of the crowd and started
(11:57):
wailing and walked up to me. While I was on
microphone whiling, and I'm a mom, So I picked him up.
I comfort him. That's what I do. And um, it
felt very important to me to acknowledge that momentum again
as one of privilege, but as one that I felt
like so many people couldn't relate to, which is, here's
my son, he's crying, he needs comforting. The simple privilege
(12:22):
of being able to pick him up and hold him
and comfort him is something that was being denied to
so many parents in that moment who were undergoing an
excruciating and special form of torture and hearing their children
wail from other rooms and not be able to comfort them.
(12:44):
And my hope was that that fundamental common experience that
we all share, regardless of what our political affiliation is,
regardless of anything, could ground us and what was really
being lost to that moment, not only for those individual
parents who are undergoing that torture, but for a collective
(13:06):
soul as a nation. How did you prepare for that?
And how do you prepare for these sort of rally
type speeches that feel like there's an element of sort
of off the cuff and like bullet points that you're
used to talking about, But how do you sort of
collect your mind before these because they're all they're all,
they're not they don't always have your son in your arms,
but they all are somewhat emotionally fraught due to the
(13:28):
nature of your job. It's true, um, and I think
we all sort of gravitate towards different mediums for communication, right,
Like the expectation of my profession is that I will
speak at rallies, I will engage in debates, I will
go on TV, and those are all different for me,
and I actually experienced different anxieties around each one of them. Um.
(13:52):
I am an extreme extrovert. So actually speaking to rally
crowds is more comfortable to me. Not that I don't
get nervous. I always get nervous, but it is more
comfortable to me because I can and real time feed
on the energy of the crowd, as opposed to being
locked in a little television studio which is a camera
trained on you and not knowing what if what you're
saying is resonating in any way. Um, but you know
(14:15):
it's it has become really important to me to remember that, um,
my energy is as important to what the crowd will
experience as my words. Right, So what I'm projecting in
terms of my own emotional landscape and emotional experience, UM
(14:35):
is going to catalyze a response that is probably going
to supersed the words that are coming out of my mouth.
And so UM. It's not that words are unimportant, because
words are very important. And I do prepare, although I
really don't script out rally remarked because I think there
is an important element of spontaneity there and um and
(14:59):
relating to people in real time. But I really think
you know, when we were fighting Kavanaughs confirmation, and it
was so long, and it was so hard, and it
was so painful for so many people. UM, My, my
preparation was about legitimately, legitimately not faking it, being able
(15:20):
to express hope, optimism, and um, the sense of power
that came from being incollective engagement with so many different
people that would pay dividends beyond this single confirmation. Not
that the confirmation was unimportant, It was hugely important. But
(15:40):
I really wanted people to understand because the odds were
stacked against us, right, that even if we lost the
vote count on this confirmation, they could never take away
from us what we had experienced. Through this collective fight
together and how that would change the landscape of everything
politically and socially moving forward. And so when I thought
(16:03):
about my speeches for those rallies, it became hugely important
to be able to authentically express that two people, because
when we disengage, when we cease to use our voices
in our energy in charting out of future of hope
and optimism, the other side winds. Yeah. And you know, relatedly,
(16:26):
just for each of us in our own lives, if
we're not talking about you know, high level events with
the stakes as high as you're talking about, but just
literally speaking up for ourselves in a meeting or trying
to tell people what we do in a way where
we're actually connected emotionally to how much we care about
what we do. Uh. There are some lessons there as well,
in terms of like not going just for teaching people information,
(16:47):
but for inspiring them that you're that you're talking about,
you know, sort of thinking differently about what it is
to communicate that it isn't just words connected to ears,
but that it's like feelings and humans connect to humans absolutely.
I mean, that's what we have. That's our superpower, you know,
I say this all the time, regardless of whether you
(17:10):
work in the sort of corporate America or um, you know,
cultural theater and entertainment or politics like I do. Our
superpower is the fact that we can inner weave this
tapestry of voices together. That demonstrates the breadth and depth
(17:30):
of what it means to center stories of the majority
in a way that the powers that be who are
fighting for the status quo and resisting change, they'll never
have that because their stories are monolithic, their voices are monolithic.
They're often is passionate in a moment where people are
crying out for passion to catalyze change. And so we
(17:51):
should never tamp down our emotions in the ways that
we tell our stories and use our voices, and by
the way that in and of itself challenges one of
the prevailing notions of the patriarchy that emotions are bad, right,
that um we you know, somehow our emotions make us weaker.
That that is a story they have fed to us
(18:14):
for hundreds of years to keep us down. That our
ability to tap deep into our emotions to channel a
different future, that is our superpower. We should always use it.
I mean everything you're saying is making me cry, so
(18:35):
obviously I'm following you into that future. Um. There's this
element of public speaking, stereotypically for women, although I know
many men deal with this too, that when we're up
on a stage or whatever the metaphor is now, when
we're all eyes are honest in a zoom meeting. God knows,
when there's no public to speak in. Um that uh,
(18:56):
instantly we're worried about ourselves, and this the you know,
all of the anxieties come up, and often the answer
is to reconnect to the why why we're speaking and
the for the for them. Yes, And I wonder if
this is something that you think about when you're you know,
up there. It sounds like certainly in terms of getting
energy from the crowd, but that there's this idea of
(19:17):
speaking up for those without a voice and very vulnerable positions.
And then there's also this idea that it's freeing to
speak to hear our voice when we know it's for others. Yeah,
I think that's right. I'm you know, at risk of
being a little bit contrarian. Um. Well, I do understand
(19:37):
and lean into the privilege that comes with that platform.
I actually don't really think of it as speaking up
for other people as much as creating space and hopefully
incentive for people to speak for themselves. UM. You know
a little known fact about me is that I'm an
ecologist by trade, and UM, early on I learned that
(19:58):
the strongest systems are the ones that actually embraced diversity
and work together towards a common goal. And so UM,
the way that I, you know, the way that I
think about that is how can I UM model for
people who are reticent to speak the fact that speaking
(20:18):
up is liberating? Speaking up is actually UM where we
tap into our greatest power, and then, when offered the stage,
try and expand that stage for more voices. UM, because again,
in the collective lies our ultimate strength. I'm also an organizer,
(20:38):
and so you know, I've I've worked on lots of
different issues throughout the year's democracy, reform, climate change, human rights,
and I see, UM working on reproductive freedom is very
much a part of human rights. UM. But you know
a lot you know, when people ask me what drives
me as an organizer, A lot of it is actually
that incredibly powerful feeling when you see someone who felt
(21:04):
like they couldn't exercise their own power and their own
voice actually realize that they can. You know, one of
the greatest things that we heard coming out of the
cabin off fight UM was so many people saying, if
Dr Christine Blasi Ford could use her voice in such
an incredibly challenging situation, surely I can pick up the
(21:30):
phone and call voters or knock on doors, even though
that gives me great anxiety. And one of the things
I always tell people who choose to engage in canvassing
for elections is, yeah, it's hard. Knock on that door,
pick up that phone, make that phone call, and make
sure that you are telling people why you are doing it,
(21:50):
because people are going to be motivated by the fact
that you, who they've never met, is confronting your own fears,
taking time out of what everybody has as a very
busy schedule, and spending it this way. So the idea
of being able to sort of create a contagious effect
around that excitement and empowering from UM using your voice
(22:14):
that it's deeply motivating to me. I feel like you're
on a first name basis with every leader in Washington,
d C. When you think about like sort of the future,
if you were to talk to somebody who wanted to
run for office or become a career advocate, what do
you think is required of their public persona question mark
term something voice. Uh. In terms of the of of
(22:37):
what sort of rules are required, it sounds like the
main one that you're talking about is about connecting to
our bodies, connecting to our sense of inspiration, the why.
But I also wonder if we're talking really technically and
knowing that, um, we had your husband on this show,
do you have advice for for sort of how to
think about what it is to scale up these versions
of ourselves that aren't necessarily like the most you know,
(23:01):
straight white male versions of ourselves. You know, running for
office is a really intense experience, as I've observed. I've
never run for office myself, and you know, to be
quite frank, it's not an aspiration of mine. UM. I
think there are all sorts of way to ways to
find an express power, and you don't have to sort
of run profice to do that. That being said, I
(23:23):
am a big fan of people that choose that path
because we absolutely need great people in um office at
the state and federal level to affect change. UM. You know,
I think a know that no from the outset, that
your entire life is going to be scrutinized, right, and
in fact find that an empowering experience when I think
(23:45):
of some of the amazing leaders that have emerged, Um,
you know, just since Trump, and I could go back
before that, because I have lots of role models and
icons who predated Trump, Barbaraly being one of them. But
you know, if you think about and Alexandra Ocasio Cortez,
(24:05):
but even Hayley Stevens, who actually shares almost nothing demographically
or in terms of her district, what I see is
people who are proud of the lives that they lived,
bringing their full selves to their election campaign with no apologies.
And what I think voters respond to is a combined
(24:28):
sense of authenticity, pride in the way you've lived your life,
and an openness to hearing their own lived experience and
welcoming their voices into the debate. And so I just
really love that idea that instead of sort of shrinking
and fear that your whole life is going to be
(24:49):
exposed if you run for office, be like great, we
all make mistakes, none of us are perfect. In fact,
that people who decided they were going to run for
office from the I'm they were five years old and
lead their whole life carefully. Are the least interesting ones, right?
And so what does it actually mean to embrace that
as a positive and empowering thing and use your voice
(25:13):
as powerfully to talk about the mistakes that you have
made because we all make them, as well as the
lessons you've learned and the things you're deeply proud of
in your life. I think that is really what both
voters and our country is responding to in this moment um.
Fucking hell, least so good. We're going to take a
(25:33):
quick break. Okay, we're back with the least Hope, the
president of Nayoral Pro Choice America. So we're talking about
up talk, up speak. What did you wait? Tell tell me,
tell me real fast. What was it? What was the
note you got? Or is this repeated notes or this? Yeah,
(25:54):
I mean early, I mean early and like well into
my career. It's a thing that happens where almost exclusively
white man would be like, oh my god, you're so talented.
I love working with you, but you should know that
you do this thing where you sort of like end
your sentences with a thing that sounds almost like you're
(26:17):
asking a question and it really undercuts sort of the
point that you're trying to make. And again, this was
coming from people that I hugely respect and actually still
consider friends and professional colleagues. So it wasn't you know,
in many ways it was shared as I like, here's
it's it's like, I'm trying to help you, and I
didn't really have any context within which to process that.
(26:40):
You know that it's like very typical, as I understand it,
you're the expert. Um, it's gendered speech, right, like women
are much more likely to use up talk, and um, therefore,
is it just does it really undercut your power if
you do it? Or is it just that's not what
men do, and so men think it under you know,
(27:02):
like it's very confusing. And then of course nobody was like,
so here's what you do about it. So it was
just a little bit of being like conscious and sub
self conscious about the fact that it was a deeply
endemic speech pattern for me and I didn't know how
to fix it. Yeah, no, and like, look, some of
some of up speak. Up talk is just habit just
(27:24):
we've picked it up because the people around us speak
that way. Because yeah, that is you know, often a
marker of feminine speech. Uh. And sometimes when we do that,
it is disconnected from the meaning of the thought and
it is just habitual in this way where every thought
goes up and then it is actually harder to hear it,
you know. So are you taking a picture? Um? And um?
(27:50):
And so the question is like, you know, a do
you need to do anything about it? Do we need
to take out the markers of feminine speech to sound
more masculine in a masculine dominated world? Eight? It is
a question. There is not a yes or no answer
of it is you know, the same for everybody. Um.
But be is the version that we can look at,
the version where we're doing we're doing this pattern that's
(28:12):
actually not helping us communicate as well as we want
to communicate regardless of gender. If we can ever live
in a world that is regardless of gender. And also,
one of the things that I've come to, which is
sort of why I love what you do, is not
everybody has to do the same thing, right, so we
can acknowledge we have lived in for eons a world
(28:33):
that's dominated by a predominantly white, predominantly male patriarchy, right
and therefore, um. You know, if your ultimate goal is
to gain their attention to achieve something, maybe you don't
focus on fighting the tyranny of the up talk. But
at the same time you encourage people who do that,
(28:53):
so that transformation sort of builds on itself, if that
makes sense. I mean, of course, like the journey that
I am on, the journey that that many of us
are on is to um, both make small adjustments that
don't hurt our soul in the moment in order to
be heard, and also change the system over time so
that we don't have to be making these small adjustments
(29:14):
in the long run and the moment that we get
any power at all in any spaces that are scary.
You know, we are in a position, as you talk about,
of having uh, the privilege of our platform. What can
we do now to help the next people? I couldn't
agree with you more. Um, speaking of patriarchy, I want
to talk about your book The Lie That Binds, and
(29:34):
I want to start by saying, um that there were
some amazing blurbs to the book. My favorite is a
lisser master Monica, who said, um, to all feminists who
dream of overthrowing the patriarchy start here. Yeah, I mean
it writing a book, as as you will learn if
you have not already, UM, an incredibly intense experience. UM
(29:59):
that real is about putting your voice out there in
an entirely different way. And it's such a deep emotional,
end time investment. UM. And you get to the end
and you're like, oh my god, well everyone hate this,
will anyone read it? And so UM. You know, the
process of asking people who you really respect to read
(30:20):
and blurb your book is really scary. And so I
was really honored by the fact that some people who
have really been incredibly formative to my own analysis the
way that I think about my own role and my
own voice, agreed to um blurb the book and use
their own voices to lift mine up. It's just an
(30:40):
incredibly moving experience. I want to point out another one
as well. This is Elina Maxwell. She said the book
is quote an unflinching look at the true origins of
the right wing obsession with keeping half of the population
scare quotes in their place. It's totally true. I mean,
one of the things that we sought to do with
(31:02):
the book is really exposed the central lie of the
radical right right. They've gotten away very literally with murder
through the decades by actually wrapping themselves in this faux
moral shroud about claiming that they have investment in individual
(31:24):
outcomes of people's pregnancies, and they don't at all. In fact,
what that book lays out is a very cynical and
intentional campaign late actually pretty late in the history of
legalized abortion to weaponize abortion as a form of oppression
that would maintain the status quo that they wanted to
(31:49):
see and use our own ability to reproduce as weapons
against women pregnant people uh women of color specifically, and
so um Exposing that lie felt really important to thinking
strategically about how we move forward because they have gotten
away with it for a really long time, and in fact,
(32:13):
just some of the things the book talks about their
fight actually they mobilized into politics when they were not
that political. Prior to that, fighting school desegregation, they didn't
even land on abortion as a thing to talk about,
much less fight until the late seventies when Roe had
made abortion legal in all fifty states five years prior,
(32:36):
and so our ability to actually fight the opposition use
this moment as one of transformation for racial and gender
equity lies in really understanding the accurate history of a
radical right that has gripped the country, UM and having
(32:56):
that common analysis to be able to move forward, you know,
in in a spirit together that requires understanding how race
and gender and sexual orientation and sexual identity and gender
identity UM is all tied up in their campaign for oppression. Yeah. Yeah,
(33:18):
you've said a lot about this need to sort of
know our history know their history. Uh, And I would
I'd love you to actually just talk a little bit
more specifically, Uh, this idea, I mean, I heard you
say on an interview last week, they're really mad about
birth control being legal for unmarried women because they were
sexually empowered. But also this very specific thing that if
(33:41):
we entered the workplace and did not leave because of
unintended pregnancies, there goes their power. I think it's true.
I think one of the things that get sort of
lost because we have allowed them to write the history
for so long. And this is an attempt, This book
is an attempt to reclaim the narrative. UM is ut
People talk about nineteen seventy three and the decision UM
(34:04):
in Roe v. Wade as a transformational point and it
certainly was. And I want to take nothing away from that,
you know, like actually having legal and safe abortion has
made a material difference in countless lives, So I don't
want to take anything away from that. But we failed
to tell the story of what happened to year before
when the Supreme Court handed down a decision making birth
(34:25):
control legal for unmarried women. Right, and so there were
a couple of different things going on. One was just
this like absolutute indignation that women could dare to have
sex for pleasure without the repercussion of potentially getting pregnant
and being, you know, in a position of changing their
(34:48):
whole lives to parent, because we as parents know you
change your whole life to parent. Oh my god, how
dare women have sex for pleasure? And then complimenting that
was the sense of like, oh whoa birth control meant
that women were going into workplace, staying in the workplace
because they were able to plan their families, and challenging
(35:10):
the hegemony of power and control that men had enjoyed
over economic systems for a long time. Right, That they
were demanding pay equity, Oh my god, they were demanding
access to c suites and decision making. They were no
longer just biding their time until they got pregnant and
entered full time motherhood. They were actually wanting to see
(35:33):
through their own visions. And this was challenging men's ideas
of who was in charge in ways that we never
talked about and we never actually had experience before. And
so part of understanding the history is understanding why. You know,
people always expressed surprise to me that these people who
(35:55):
claimed to be anti abortion also are anti contraception, which
we saw last week at the Supreme Court or a
couple of weeks ago at the Supreme Court. Well, for them,
it really is truly about women's role in society, and
if you're not adhering to that, you are jeopardizing their
strong sense of what's right and wrong, what family looks like.
(36:16):
And um, god forbid, you might actually educate their women
about what they could do with their lives that they
weren't adhering to these rigid beliefs of women's role in society.
So yes, and um, in many ways it's working and
has worked. And now that you know, I I look
at the timeline that's like literally the length of my life,
(36:40):
and you know, one of the things that that you've
talked about, and I think one of the ways in
which you are a leader is to remind us that
progress doesn't always move forward in this straight line that
we all want to believe in, that we have to
actually make it happen, and sometimes it doesn't work, and
sometimes we backslide. And I wonder specifically about you know,
part of what I loved about Zerlina's quote up there
(37:00):
that this is an unflinching look at what the right
wing has done. Is this unflinching part, because I wonder
what it is that you do too, you know, handle
the hope side of your job. How do you, strategically speaking,
continue to you know, find your reserves well. I mean, look,
one of the reasons that we wrote so specifically I
(37:24):
wrote so specifically. Um, you know, I frame this book
as a collaborative effort because it is of Neral's research
and analysis. So, you know, one of the reasons that
we explicitly laid out in the book, the piece about
the birth control is both because we have to recognize
the hypocrisy in some of their existing stances, but when
(37:46):
they chose abortion, which they did on this conference call
casting about for a new issue to weaponize after previous
efforts had failed. They gambled, And what they gambled on
was the idea that there was still sufficient stigma in
(38:07):
our culture around both women who were sexually empowered and
willing to say, hey, I want to have sex for
pleasure and not just to procreate, right, and then this
very deep idea that if you did get pregnant and
you chose that carrying that pregnancy to term and becoming
apparent in that moment was not the thing you most
(38:29):
wanted to do, that you are selfish and a betrayal
of women in the most honestly, in the most biblical sense, right.
And women being called selfish has been a way of
keeping us down for a very long time. So they
gambled that those attitudes were so pervasive in society that
(38:50):
even for an overwhelming number of people who supported legal
access to a version, they wouldn't want to engage in
the conversation because if these are deeply held stigmas and
societal beliefs, and they gambled correctly, right, So essentially they said,
we're going to move an agenda that is not good
(39:11):
for or backed by the majority of people in this country,
and the way that we're going to effectively do that
is by buying silence, by tapping into these deep stigmas.
And they gambled correctly, and so part of this book
is to actually challenge people to reclaim our voices and
(39:31):
our own stories and shed that stigma and stand in
our own power. And you asked about my emotional reserves,
that's what it comes from. It comes from this understanding
that knowledge can lead to action, that can lead to power.
Power on behalf of the many and not the few.
And every time I see us inch closer to that,
(39:54):
it always starts with breaking the silence, and it always
fills me up and makes me believe we can have
exponential effect when we lean into generally conversations, but certainly
conversations that have held people down for so long. It
also makes me think that for those of us listening
who want to challenge ourselves to have more difficult conversations,
(40:16):
that practically speaking, what we can do to break through
that discomfort and you know, literally open our mouth and
literally have sounds come out, is is to tap into
that same collective power. I think that's totally right, and
you know, it's transforming the sort of definition of power,
like traditional patriarchal forms of power, is very monolithic, very homogeneous.
(40:40):
The idea that one person will go on to be
president of the United States, which is the most important
thing you could do, the pinnacle of success. And actually
I think that's great if people want to do that.
But power comes from living in community, centralizing the needs
of the collective, like those are the most durable communities,
(41:03):
those are the most durable civilizations, Those are the most
durable ecosystems if you look in nature, and that's the
That is our challenge in this moment to transform that
definition and power and weave all of the voices that
are being surfaced, resonate them, and put them into this
tapestry that changes our future. I'd like to live in
(41:29):
that world. We do live in that world. We just
have to get louder and louder. Exactly. I specifically want
to call this out that you said um in the book,
that you hope readers will think about how our own
personal struggles or discomfort with thinking or talking about abortion
might be preventing us from quote fully engaging in the
fight for freedom, racial and gender justice, and democracy that
(41:52):
lays before us it's this subtle, subtle stuff, right, I
think it is. I think it very subtle and very sinister.
And it is also the beauty of it is that
the first step is simple, right, scary, but simple and
(42:14):
within our full control to shake off that silence, shake
off the intimidation, and just respect and listen to our
own inner voice, make it an outer voice, and then
share it with other people. Final thought before the break,
The phrase I wrote down for myself is a hope
(42:34):
in a dystopia. Um any other advice that you have
on how to be hopeful? I feel like I turned
to you all the time when I'm like this horrible
thing has happened at least, and you like alchymize. So
I mean, look, I have Dirk days too, and I
don't want to suggest that I don't. And my sort
of mantra on my Dirk days is that throughout human civilization,
(42:57):
as travesty and injustice has been incurred, we have but
one choice, and it is to fight on the side
of the righteous or retreat, and retreat is complicity. And
therefore I just try and make that choice every single day.
But you know, my optimism comes from talking to so
many different people who are engaging in so many different
(43:20):
ways to make this amount of moment of transformation. Whether
you're challenging your business to be more inclusive, deconstructing peaks,
speech patterns so that they are more reflective of the
collective and and diversity, or whether you're fighting in politics,
it's you know, to me, the inspiration is in acknowledging
(43:42):
that I just have to do my part. I don't
have to do the whole thing because there are so
many amazing people doing their part, and that you know, like,
justice is a journey, it's not a destination, and it
is how we live our lives with integrity and consciousness
that matters, not that we can chalk up any individual victory,
(44:06):
because there will be victories and there will be setbacks,
and this is a lifelong journey. I'm literally crying. Um, Okay,
we're gonna take another quick break. Okay, I would love
to just dive in real fast with the final moments
I have with you to listen to. Uh, who you
(44:29):
have brought in for us? Would you tell us please? So? Yeah?
I mean, Anna Pressley is one of the most powerful people,
powerful voices then I have experienced in two decades of
doing this work. She Um is someone who inhabited her
whole life and brought to bear her lived experience and
(44:50):
the lived experience of her constituents to win a race
that quite honestly nobody wanted her to run in the
first place, and in doing so has really transformed the
conversation and the dynamics in Congress, certainly about reproductive freedom
and justice, but about how we think about individuals um
(45:10):
and their dignity in every aspect of life. It's just
been an honor to work with her. And she's a
phenomenal leader who is going to just rise, Rise, Rise, amazing.
And I pulled just the clip where she reveals her
alopecia and UM, and I want to I want to
just play this for everybody. This is my official public revealing.
(45:36):
I'm ready now because I want to be free from
the secret and the shame that that secret carries with it.
And because I'm not here just to occupy space, I'm
here to create it. I think I honest decision to
(45:58):
be public about her condition of alopecia was such. I mean,
it was an act of courage, but it was an
act of truthful honesty, and it makes her the powerful
leader that she is that, Um, you know, one of
the things I really took from that decision and take
from her generally as inspiration is this idea that if
(46:18):
we live in secret shame, we are writing our own power,
no matter what it's about. And so her decision, which
to me was like, she's beautiful no matter what, like
no one should feel like they have to hide a
medical condition, but I know, felt very um you know,
important and challenging. To her was spoke volumes about our
(46:40):
self acceptance and the power that comes from self acceptance. UM.
So I take that to her every day because I
have things I don't like about myself, and um, I'm
sure they're affecting me at a much greater scale when
I refused to speak openly about them. She is an
amazing leader. I feel so lucky to get to work
(47:00):
with her. And on a really technical level, this is edited.
It's lightly edited, but the camera just stays steady for
large parts of it while she just thinks, literally thinks
on camera. She picks her words. She you can you
can tell she's doing that process that we all do
and we're in our most comfortable state where we try
on an idea out loud and then we feel does
(47:22):
that feel right? Let me let me you know adjust.
That is a wildly brave thing to do, especially when
it's something that's really vulnerable, and it is something it
is what will make everybody fall in love with us.
But we have to trust that we can do that
in real time. I totally agree. I totally agree. I'm
so glad you're lifting her up in this moment on
(47:42):
your show. Thank you, Thank you for bringing her in. Um, Alice,
I know you're a busy woman and you have to go.
Thank you so much for spending this time with us.
Oh my god, I have totally loved it. So are
you are? You are not just a coature of superheroes.
You are actually a superhero. So um, thank you for
all you do. Thank you, my love. Oh my god,
(48:03):
I'm gonna go cry now. Um by love. Thank you
to Alise for joining me. You can find out more
about her and her new book in the show notes
or on our website Permission to Speak pot dot com.
I'm doing I do lives every Thursday, you guys, so
join me over at Permission to Speak pod on Instagram.
It's Q and a style, so please feel free to
(48:24):
put me on the spot. I dare you as always
send me d M s at Permission to Speak pod
on Instagram or submit through the website and let me
know what is going on with your voice. For upcoming
mail bag episode coming at you. Thank you to Sophie
Lichterman and the team at iHeart Radio and all of you.
We're recording this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles
(48:47):
on land that is the historic gathering place for the
Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit us d a
C dot us to learn more about honoring native land.
Permission to Speak is a production of Heart Radio and
Double Vision executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark Canton.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, listen on the
(49:08):
I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.