June 17, 2020 • 52 mins
Samara chats with the internationally beloved cartoonist and The Simpsons artist about how to be creative when the world is a mess and we’re not in the mood to make things that are optimistic or silly or beautiful. They discuss where ideas come from, how to overcome a work culture that doesn’t take you seriously, the surprise impact Dungeons & Dragons had on her career, and how to become your own best cheerleader after a lifetime of playing small.
Host: Samara Bay
Executive producers: Catherine Burt Cantin & Mark Cantin, Double Vision doublevisionprojects.com
Producers: Samara Bay, Sophie Lichterman and the iHeart team
Theme music: Mark Cantin
Follow Liz at @lizclimo on IG and thelittleworldofliz.com
Follow @nayyirah.waheed & #nayyirahwaheed
Follow @lizzobeating (duh)
Liz’s shop is at society6.com/lizclimo
For more info on honoring native lands go to usdac.us/nativeland
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's quote is from Naera Wahid. I love listening. It
is one of the only places where you can be
still and moved at the same time. Welcome to Permission
to speak. The podcast about how we talk and how
(00:21):
we get ourselves hurd with me, samar Abe. This week's
guest is Liz climb Out. Even if you don't know
her name, you probably know her art over The Little
Book of Liz on Tumbler and on her Instagram and
on coffee tables and classrooms around the world. Her cartoons
(00:45):
of animals talking to each other against a simple white
background speak volumes. I feel like everything about them is
both simple and also profound. I wanted to have Liz
on because I wanted to talk about the process of
being creative during times of insane uncertainty, and what the
(01:06):
role of laughter and joy and innocence is in wildly
unsettling times. And also, you guys. Before branching out on
her own, and Liz worked for over a decade drawing
on The Simpsons, and I wanted to know all the goods,
first of all, on what that culture is like, and
second of all how she left it all behind. This
(01:28):
is Liz, Liz yes, thank you for being here, Thank
you for having me here. In quote, UM, yeah, I
want to start actually talking about how ideas happened for you.
(01:51):
I want to talk about what you Yeah, what's your processes?
It is, Um, it's one of a couple of different things.
Either I am really, you know, just going about my
business on a walk, doing my thing, just kind of
like living my life, and some an idea just pops
into my head. That's, you know, that's what that's what
I want to happen. That's like the best case scenario.
(02:13):
That's pretty rare, and those are usually the ideas that
I end up liking the most. The rest of the time,
I'm like staring out the window and just trying to
grasp at straws and hope that an idea comes to me.
Or I'll go on a walk, um, or I'll just
kind of like put myself out into the world. An
idea sort of come to me that way. So this
has been sort of an interesting time because I don't
(02:33):
really do that anymore. I don't really like go out
into the world or leave the house a whole lot anymore.
So it's a lot of just sort of like taking
in information and digesting it and trying to uh create
right now. It's a big part of it is just
trying to create something with a lot of intention that
I I feel like people might want to see your
need to see um and be really aware of that,
(02:55):
Whereas before it was kind of just like this is goofy,
I'll just you know, here's a funny idea. I'll just
kind of you know, put on paper or on the
computer screen and see how it goes. Yeah, that's interesting though,
So it feels like you're the intentionality is a new
idea that you're trying to sort of rise to the times. Yes,
I feel I feel um well, because somewhere along the way,
(03:17):
like at first, you know, I've been doing comics for
quite a few years now, probably like I don't know,
like seven years. I mean my whole life really, but
I've been actually like posting them for like seven because
I went to where that back and I mean, if
you if I were to go back and and look
at some of the earlier ones, and I don't do
that very often because there's some of them are real
cringeing for me to look at. But it was really
just trying to, you know, make people laugh what would
(03:38):
would this make me laugh? Or is this something that
I might have said that made a friend laugh? And
how can I have that translate into a comic. But
somewhere along the way, I started realizing that the comics
I was doing a particular were resonating with people who
felt sort of like they hadn't they aren't seen in
the way that they'd like to be seen, or or
they just feel kind of um, you know, or even
even if you don't feel that way, I just it
(03:59):
just occurred to me that people were responding to it
in them in a really positive way, in a way
that made me feel like, not even a responsibility, but
just I wanted to create more work like that that
made people feel good and maybe people feel seen. So
now that we're in, you know, a legitimate crisis, I
really am and keeping that, you know in my mind,
and it's like, what could I do? How can I
sort of like create some mean that even if it
(04:21):
doesn't even have to be some huge statements, so much
as just like you know, I realized people are scrolling
Twitter and scrolling Instagram and seeing my work that way,
what could be something that they could pause and sort
of just take a breath amongst everything else that's just
really really heavy and hard um and just sort of
like kind of collect their thoughts and just have like
a nice moment of like a giggle. Basically. Yeah, it's
interesting that you talk about it in those terms because
(04:42):
it makes me think about what the role is of
humor and and joy in the midst of you know,
like collective trauma and and thinking about what you do
in those terms, rather than it feeling like, you know,
it's frivolous and it's over there and shouldn't deserve the uh,
you know, grave a toss of other stuff, thinking of
it as a as a bomb or as something that
(05:05):
you know is is for these times. Yeah, and and
you know, there's a lot of really really I mean,
there's it's an understatement. There's so much beautiful work and
so many people saying so many beautiful things and relevant
things and important things in art. And I appreciate seeing
all that stuff, and I appreciate like having all that
stuff out in the world, and I consume it and
I'm like so grateful. But then somewhere along the way,
(05:27):
I realized that my own stuff, it's something else, that's
something lighter and that's okay, And that's that sort of
like what I realized I was good at and I
just kind of leaned into it, and I'm like, well,
let me do more of this, because I feel like
I can do this in a way that's very subtle
and not too heavy handed. Because the stuff that I
tend to like is dark, is much darker than the
stuff that I do myself, like I have like a
(05:48):
darker sense of humor, but I don't do that as well,
and I don't, you know, just because I might find
something funny doesn't mean other people might not find it
not funny or offensive. And I don't want to be
the person that's creating that stuff. I want to just
try to create light if I can, as much as possible.
Tell us specifically about one of the most recent ones.
(06:10):
Um as we record this at least on your on
your tumbler with the snake that says it's fine, Oh
that's sane. Help, Yeah, So that that's actually I mean,
that's just me. We sore where we live. We're really
lucky where we live because we have we have neighbors
on every side of us, and we're we're friends with
all of the neighbors, and so we haven't we haven't
(06:31):
actually like gone over to anyone house anyone's houses, or
had anyone at our houses um or even gone into
each other's yards. But we can see into each other's
yards and we can, you know, talk and at a
safe distance, and my daughter can talk to their kids
at a safe distance. But I think it was literally
that morning that my neighbor was like, how are you
And I was like, oh, I'm fine, and he was
like yeah, and I'm like no, and he's like yeah,
me either. It's just like because that's what we do,
(06:54):
you know. And me personally, I try to put on
sort of like a happy face I always have, and
I tend to sort of push my feelings down, and
sometimes I even have to tell myself like, hey, you
you need to ask for help right now. You're not okay.
Like even even I'm even telling myself like, oh, you're fine,
it's fine, everything's fine, it'll be okay. Stop worrying and
(07:15):
stop this. And sometimes it's important to I mean, it's
important to recognize when you need task for help from somebody.
So I was like, oh, this, how could I How
could I convey this in a comic, and so that
was the goal of that one, and tell for for
people who aren't looking at it, what's the enders. So
I was actually I started doing um like trying to
stick to a schedule. On Instagram or on Mondays, I
(07:35):
post either an old comic or a new comic that
I did specifically sort of with the hashtag Monday Mood,
and it was mostly it's it's supposed to sort of
convey how I'm feeling that day and ask people how
how they're feeling. And so this particular one is a
bird on a branch and it's asking a snake. I
think it's asking how are you, and the snake saying fine,
but the snake is actually twisting its body into the
word help. So it's like, yeah, I'm fine, but obviously
(07:58):
it's crying for help. It wants to how it's actually feeling.
And sometimes it's really hard for us to do so
or me anyway, So yeah, I honed it on that
one because it felt I mean, you know, it's so
deep at the same time as being you know, silly
and and sweet. Well, and you know it's hard when
you have I have you know, again, have a six
(08:19):
year old and you know, as a parents, like this
is so much I want. I want to, you know,
be light and silly and fun, and I want to
be because she's an only child, so it's like I
want to be a playmate for her, and but I
also want to, you know, give her a stable home
and give her you know, I have to feed her
and be her teacher and also get this work done.
And so a lot of times I have to sort
of just sort of say to myself, like, hey, it's
(08:39):
okay if you if you if you're not doing everything
perfectly right now, because chances are I'm not doing anything
even close to her right now. So cut yourself some slack,
is sort of the message, and ask for help if
you need it. How do you in the in the
process part of it, You know, you're talking about where
ideas come from, but specifically for people listening who are
(09:00):
creatives and who are trying to figure out even even
in the before times, but specifically now for people who
are stuck at home and maybe do have families and
and you know, obligations. Do you have a set schedule
or how do you get yourself to sit down or
is sitting down even the most you know at a
consistent time, even the most useful way to be creative. Yeah. See,
(09:20):
it's tough because I am I'm really I'm very type
A in a lot of ways where I do have
to sort of give myself a bit of a schedule
because if I don't, I just am as the laziest
person you've ever met. Like, if I'm not like cranking
at work and trying to get a lot done, then
I'm not doing anything. So it's been hard for me
to find that balance right now because that's not possible.
So lately, the days sort of look like, so my
(09:40):
husband's working full time and I technically am, you know, freelancing,
and I'm I can kind of set my own schedule.
So his work, like he has meetings in the morning
and stuff. So I take my daughter quote unquote take
my daughter to school and we do zoom together and
like I do her homework with her, and then by
the time she's done, it's usually lunch time. And then um,
(10:01):
I have like a two or three hour chunk where
I try to get everything done and it's really hard.
I actually just wrapped a calendar that I was doing
and I had to do a big chunk of new comics,
and so I was trying to get like three comics
done a day. And I used to be able to,
like my routine was to get up in the morning
and go on a walk along Like I would take
like a one or two hour walk and just write
(10:21):
the entire time and take notes down and like get
try to find and how are you like walking and
writing like you mean literally with my phone, I would
just take notes or I would like do audio messages,
and I would just like if ideas came to my head.
But I can't do that anymore. So I'm trying to
like just if I have an idea, not second guess it,
crank it out and then like kind of revisit it
and be like is this good or are you just
(10:42):
that's gonna be? Yeah? That's my other part of question
is how do you know what's good? And how do
you know what it's bad? I actually I don't know,
and and uh, it's tough. I have no idea and
I'm and then i'm you know, then there's the guilt
of like are you just you know, is are you
even just producing good work right now? Are you? Like? Why?
It's just it's hard. It's a lot and uh, if
(11:06):
it's any consolation, I feel like I'm doing a terrible show.
So I feel like if anyone else out there is
like having a hard time, it's just a hard time
to be creative because there's just so much else going
on and so many feelings and no, none of the
I mean, I say distractions in the most positive way possible,
like just seeing friends, going you know, to the beach,
(11:29):
and like just being around people and going to barbecues.
All that stuff that like where I would find inspiration
and I would just find joy is gone. So I'm
sort of looking internally a lot more. And that is
also you know, that's that's also sort of a positive
thing as well. It's just it's just very uncomfortable. So yeah,
I've I've been thinking a lot about how for me
(11:51):
with my creative projects. Um, I feel like the concept
of creativity is so tied up for me in the
concept of optimism. Yeah, I mean actually makes me think
of that sort of classic idea that the most optimistic
thing you could do is have a child, because there's
like you're you're assuming that there's a future that you
want them to grow up in. Uh, And I think
that's the same with like generating you know, a piece
(12:13):
of creative work, definitely. And at first, you know, when
I set the schedule up for myself on Instagram, where
it was like Monday, you know, I tell what mood
I'm in, and Wednesday I try to like, you know,
I find something that I like that I was positive
online during the week or you know, what have you.
The first month or so, there was a lot of unity.
It felt like people were sort of like all on
(12:35):
the you know, everyone was sort of you know, quote
unquote in this together, and so it felt like there
was more room for me to feel like positive and
optimistic and like you know, kind of like cheerleading. And
then you know, as time went by, it was harder
for me to sort of to do that because it's
like I don't feel this way anymore, and like, I
don't know, there's just a lot of everything is sort
(12:57):
of changing, and I'm trying to continuously give sort of
a just a hopeful not in everything's going to be
okay message or like we're all okay, but like not
necessarily that just as you know, you got through today,
and good for you for getting through today. That's pretty
much it. That's really it, and that's all I want
to say like that, and so it's hard to sort
(13:19):
of find different ways to do that, but I'm trying.
So there's two places I want to go with that.
One is I read somewhere that your comics are or
your carchon what you call them? What what's what terms?
What if they have a quote unquote innocent silliness, And
I wonder if that's connected to this idea that they're here.
I mean, I also read that that you're that you're
(13:41):
huge in China, and obviously you're huge in our our
own country as well. But you know, this idea of
the universality of innocence, Yeah, I do. I do try
to um, you know, part of being trying to be
as aware of as possible of like every different person
who may be looking at it, you do sort of
have to whittle whittle it down to the most sort
(14:02):
of like I guess broad idea and um or like
foundational or like a foundational human feeling. Yeah, so it's
not they're not specific a lot of times, just kind
of like a feeling that I hopefully everyone can relate to.
And I think a lot of times that does lead
back to sort of being innocent and silly. Do you
actually think about themes that come up a lot in
your work? You know what I have? I mean, I
(14:24):
don't know if I actually really have. I didn't. I didn't.
It was not a question on my list, but it
does feel like when you say that it is it
makes me. I mean, there's certain characters that show up
a lot. Well yeah, and and you know, I have
sort of gone back and forth a lot about, you know,
especially earlier on about like oh maybe I should give
you know them names or like create their backgrounds a
(14:44):
little bit more like kind of create stories for them,
a little more solid stories for each of them. And
I've sort of as I've gone forward doing comics, you know,
I've have projects like books and stuff that I'm working
on where I do sort of maybe pick and choose
the characters or like create stories for Like Rory and Dad,
for instance, have like their own sort of little backstory now,
but a lot of the other ones I've kind of
(15:05):
decided along the way just to keep simple and not
put a background. Like everything is they're basically an a
void and it's sort of just like they each sort
of just represent an emotion or a feeling. So it's
not like the characters are really like you know, there
are a little personalities here in that shine through, Like
the bear and the rabbit are very you know, they
have very like specific personalities. The bears me and the
(15:25):
rabbits my husband. So that's where those come from, my coffee.
But for the most part, they're not really like characters
so much as just like representational of of sort of
feelings I think, and things that we might be able
to relate to. And it's not nothing that they're animals. Yeah,
So honestly, part of the reason I draw animals is
because I don't really like drawing people that much. And
(15:47):
I worked on The Simpsons for so long that when
you work on this is something that's like very true
in animation. If you've been working on a show for
a long time, it's really hard to break out of
the style. So you'll notice that, Like if if a
person creates a new show and they have a long
history at another show, the new show will look a
little like that old show. And it's not that they're
not you know, great artists, or that they're not like creative,
(16:07):
it's just that that's it's just really hard to break
from that, because you know, you've learned so much when
you're working on a TV show and you're drawing these
characters every day. So in part, I was really trying
to just get away from the Simpsons as much as possible.
As much as I love the Simpsons, I just didn't
want to know that's why their eyes are dots and
like I don't. I didn't want them to look like
Santa's little helper, you know. I wanted them to look different.
So there's part that, and then there's part again just
(16:29):
like the universality of like anyone can relate to, like,
you know, any one of these characters, because it's just
it's just a little bit more broad and it's not
like here's a person who looks just like me. It's like,
now here is a feeling that everybody can probably identify with. Yeah, yeah, okay,
Well we're going to talk about the Simpsoms after the break,
but before that, I do want to specifically, I guess,
since you brought it up, tell us how you think
(16:52):
about your audience, because obviously some of this is for
adults and rings really true for us, and some of
it is four kids or is appropriate for kids. And
it's used for kids. Do you think about like kids storytelling,
like storytelling for kids and what that is? You know,
I've been thinking about that more lately as I sort
of because I've done especially in contrast to The Simpsons.
(17:14):
I mean, yeah, well, and I grew up watching the Simpsons.
I know that, like you know it. I started watching
The Simpsons when it came out. I think I was
seven or eight. I was Bart's age when however old
Bart is, That's how old I was, And then I
watched it all the way through, but Barts stayed the
same as yeah we're both still eight. Um. But so
something about the Simpsons not always having it's not always
(17:39):
necessarily quote unquote child friendly, I guess, but it has
such heart and that is sort of my takeaway. So like,
if you look at some of my earlier comic compilations,
I would use like bad language and some of them
so like you know, like for the most part, they're
mostly family friendly, but like one of them I would
say like damn it or something, and without thinking ahead,
I mean, I had no idea they were going to
be made into a book. I was, so I wasn't
(18:00):
like really thinking too much, but the language isn't as
um important to me, is like the intention. And now
as i'm you know, as I have more of an
audience and I've put out more books, and it's more
clear to me that children will be reading these books
because I do really now want it to be something
that everybody can consume and everybody can enjoy on some level.
(18:21):
So I purposely don't use bad language anymore for that reason,
because I don't want bad lange bad language, I know,
because I understand, you know, not everybody people might have
strong feelings about that. I don't. I mean, I do
not like we don't. We don't really care about that.
I don't think I think it's I think it's bullshit.
I think that people because you know, I don't think it.
I think what matters is where you're what you're saying,
(18:41):
not the words you're using. Necessarily Like it doesn't seem
like a high priority for me, however, I want to
be aware of, you know, parents who I want as
many people as possible to be able to enjoy it.
So without getting sappy or moblin, I want to sort
of like have you know, sort of like a sweetness
and a gentleness, but hopefully still do funny work. Have
you gotten letters from people who have stayed with you? Yes,
(19:04):
anything that you can think of, any specific stories. Honestly,
it's fine if people people have no I don't mean that.
I don't mean that, I mean like good letters. I
mean like, do you have people have people written, you know,
as they've integrated this into their schools or into their homes. Like,
do you get notes from people that are really heartening? Yes?
I get I get all kinds of letters, and I
will say that they're mostly really positive, and I feel
(19:26):
so removed from you know, I guess the readership in
a lot of ways. So that like when people do
write me and they tell me, you know, this comic
really helped me get through a tough time, it's just
I'm so I mean, humbled is not even the right word.
It's just I'm floored. It's like I just I feel,
I don't know, it's just amazing. And that's what makes
me want to keep doing them, because I'm like, Wow,
this little thing, this idea that I had is someone
(19:48):
you know, it really helped someone. Well, then I have
to do more. I have to keep doing these, and
I have to keep doing them right and being really
careful about what I'm saying and be willing to apologize
if I say something wrong, you know, just learn from
like basically, Yeah, it strikes me as the first part
of our conversation about sort of how to find optimism
(20:09):
during this time. You're also in relation to your readers,
your lookers on like because of the Internet, because of tumbler.
But you know, it's not like you're doing this in
a void and hoping it resonates with somebody in a
year when it gets published. I mean you're really interacting, yes,
especially you know with stuff that I'm posting. I am
posting online right away. There are other things that like,
(20:31):
for instance, the comics I was talking about earlier, those
won't be seen for like a year by anyone, so
I'm not I'm not going to post them. So I
have to keep that in mind too, because it's like,
oh am, I you know, talking about something that's relevant
right now, especially because all I want to do right
now is talk about what's going on in the world.
But that might not feel as um immediate you know,
year note or people might not want to talk about
(20:51):
it a year from now. You know, they might like
about quarantine or anything, they might just want to get
away from it, and the who the whole future casting
thing for any of us who are trying to do
stuff that won't come out for a year, and you know,
I I'm I'm honored to think of myself in the
you know, pantheon of people who are trying to think
long term. But also like I, Okay, we have to
(21:15):
take a quick break. We will be back and we're
gonna talk about the sense. During the break, Uh, Lizz
was asking me where I got this tapestry that many
of you have seen behind me, And the answer is
Society six dot com, which is a great place for
(21:37):
um supporting artists it is, and also for decorating your house. Yes,
they have great stuff. It's it's really user friendly, like
as I'm so not tech savvy. It's but let me
finish the plug, which is that you can also find
Lizza's stuff there. We've been talking about I'm bad at computers.
(21:58):
I'm interrupting. You're telling you about how bad. Yes, Society
six says, I have I have a whole shop there.
I try to keep it up. Um, I haven't been
as good about keeping it up lately, but I do.
If there's like I will say, people will email me
and be like, oh, I saw this comic and I
really want on a shirt or I really want on
a print, and I almost always will just put it
up that day so that people can. So if you
(22:18):
see something you liking it's not up there, then just
email me. So in my emails I got that's amazing service.
M Well, but I also want to talk for a second,
because there's a there's a thread of humility and everything
that you do and talk about, and I wonder if
that's something you're aware of and sort of deliberate about.
Like I'm thinking about the fact that you call it
(22:40):
the Little Book, right, the Little Book of Liz and that,
and that when you go to your tumbler it says
I can draw and then in print. This is sort
of oh my gosh. No, I've never really thought about that,
But you're totally right, like, and I think it's half intentional.
It's just not the sort of person I am. I'm
I'm just not really like, I don't know, I I see,
(23:03):
I feel even weird trying to talk about it right now.
It's just not it's just not my im nature. But
on the other hand, I will be honest. I think
a lot of it is also just me being like,
oh I might just kind of um, not embarrassed, but like,
uh yeah, just sort of like why is my work
so popular? I'm not I know a lot of artists
that are a lot better than me. I know a
lot of artists who are doing amazing. So it's sort
(23:24):
of like a you know, I'm not proud of that.
Is that I'm sort of just saying like, oh, it's
you know, it's not a big deal. And I'm trying
to get better at being proud of myself and owning
what I'm saying and owning my work because you know,
a lot of it I guess what I'm trying to
say is the other half of it is it just
kind of my own ship. It's just like me being
just sort of not owning and being proud of what
(23:45):
I've I've done. I'm getting better at it. But for
a long time, I think because I didn't you know,
I went to animation school or attempted to go to
animation school, but I didn't get in. And my next
question and then on the Simpsons, I would actually like
had a applied for a couple of jobs moving up
um here and there, like you know, storyboard artists or
jobs that were above what I was doing, and I
(24:05):
didn't get those. And so I think for a long
time I went from like sort of being just the
the artist who's scraping by. I mean, and I say
that being fully aware that I was working on The Simpsons,
which I am super grateful for, but I also just
had sort of this feeling of like I'm not quite
good enough to be here, I don't quite belong. I'm
on the chopping block. Any day now they're going to realize,
(24:25):
you know, like the imposter syndrome that a lot of
people feel. And so I went from that to doing
really well within a couple of years. And so I
think it's half humility and half just me sort of
not really accepting that I'm any good to be honest,
like just like I'm like like that you're in the
process of catching up to yourself. I'm doing I'm yeah,
I'm working on that. I'm trying to get because you know,
(24:47):
it's kind of um, it's a waste of time in
a way. I mean, it's just you know, that's not
that's not important. What's important is how people are responding
to and how people receive it and how it's making
them feel, and worrying about whether or not it's any
good On my behalf, I think it's I personally feel
like it's kind of a waste of time. It's like,
just keep doing the work and get better and and
be proud of yourself. There's this this famous Maryann Williamson
quote that Nelson Mandela quoted in a in a speech,
(25:11):
so it's sometimes attributed to either one of them, but um,
about our habits of playing small and how that doesn't
help anybody. But I mean something that comes up on
this podcast too, because it's about how we use our
voices and how we navigate spaces that don't necessarily seem
like they're made for us, is um, there are reasons
that we play small that serve us. Yeah, yeah, that
(25:33):
makes sense. I mean, especially if you're a woman, especially
if you're from any sort of marginalized group. You know,
we've picked up the memo that people would like us
to play small and be really unintimidating. And there's something about,
you know, sort of that's like don't worry, don't worry,
you have to think for my breeches. You know, no,
You're absolutely right, and I think, yeah, again, I think
(25:54):
it's just I think it's a combination of that and
just wanting people to sort of like, I guess take
me out of the equation and just sort of because
I also, I also, like purposefully don't have a huge
social media presence personally, Like I I have a following,
and I post a lot of like work and right
now I'm work post a lot of other people's work
(26:15):
so that people can see it. But when it comes
to like me personally, I am not interested in really
letting people in partially because I'm private, I'm a private person,
and also because it just doesn't seem like it's necessary,
Like that's not what I want people. That's not the
message I want to give. I would rather just people
see my work. Um. So I think it's also in
part that it's like I'm not as important in this situation.
But I am also very aware of the fact that
(26:37):
I need to be sort of more proud of my work.
And I wonder if you're thinking about the proud of
your work, you know, mission in relation also to having
a daughter that yeah, that's actually a good point. Um.
I think it's I think it's a combination of a
lot of things. I think I think it was literally
like within the same month of not getting into this
(26:59):
animation program, my mom also died and she'd been sick
for a few years. And she was always, like, I
mean to say the very least, like my biggest cheerleader.
And so I sort of and I was, I was
twenty one always, I always I should know, but I
always kind of go. It was I was like twenty
one and a half when she passed away, But so
I had to after she died. It was like I
(27:20):
had to sort of find in within myself all that
love and um pride that she had for me. And
so it was like this really you know, big life
altering thing where it's like I sort of, you know,
I lost her, and I was sort of I was
rejected basically in this way that was the biggest way
I've ever been rejected at that point in my life,
(27:42):
and told that I wasn't going to be good enough
to do what I thought I was going to do
from the moment I could hold a pencil basically. So
I think it's just taken me like fifteen years to
finally get to the point where I'm like, you are
really good and you are a good person and like
you should be proud of what you're doing. It was
hard for me to even say that right now, but
(28:02):
I'm getting there. But I think that I think that
really has a lot to do with it. So I
like lost this person right on the time someone told
me no, and it was just trying, you know, finding
my footing. Ever since, I guess it's a lot story
and then connected to having your own kids and then
exactly right, and so so now I have Marlow, who
(28:22):
is six, and she's actually named My mom was Mary
Lou and so we we sort of took the Y
and the the U and called her Marlow after my mom.
But she's you know, she's so proud of me, and
she loves my comics and she'll like it's really sweet,
just like yeah, she'll like read my calendars like we have.
We have a split level house, so we actually I'm
(28:44):
explained why we have a baby monitor still for almost
seven year old, but we can't hear her when we're
all the way downstairs, and so we'll be watching TV
after she's gone to bed and she'll be like mom
um in this comic and she'll ask questions about and like,
you know, she'll either tell me she likes it or
she'll asked me why, like how it was a joke
or asked me. But she's really really interested in them
(29:04):
now in a way that's really helped me sort of
like focus back on like, oh, you know, this is
this isn't going to be proud of. And now it's
actually become apparent to me that other kids are going,
you know, going to be doing that too, And it's
just put more of a fire under me because I'm like,
I want, I want now, i want more. You know,
the fact that children are are enjoying them has sort
of shifted my focus from like let me sort of
(29:27):
makes me that adults only would like to like, oh
maybe maybe maybe this is why what I'm trying to
say here. Maybe I'm trying to like create jokes that
parents and kids can enjoy. And so also maybe you're
just sitting there is so real about that. I'm experience
experiences with my five year old, which is like, not
only does he find things funny, but slash or he's
also hearing us find things funny and trying to understand
(29:51):
the mechanics of it exactly, it's exactly right, it's wild,
it's really interesting, and it's definitely yeah, she has she
has really, she's really um inspired me to do a
lot more and yeah, it's yeah, it's been. It's been
a definitely like a growing and learning process. Can you
help us for anybody who doesn't know what happens in
(30:12):
the animation world at all? What did it mean to
work on The Simpsons? You you referenced like they're being
different levels of jobs, but what like what did going
to work every day entail and feel like? Well? So, um,
my job on The Simpsons was what was called a
character layout artist, and The Simpsons has actually run pretty
(30:34):
differently from I think any like the studio. The way
that the artist produced is really different from a lot
of other studios. They always have kind of just done
things their own way. But my job, in particular was
basically an animator of key poses. And what that means
is I would and I'm gonna date myself because this
is a long time ago, but I would get an
audio cassette tape where the voice actors had recorded their voices,
(30:56):
and I would get the storyboard where a storyboard artist
had taken a script and sort of planned out each
shot and figured out, you know, okay, well, in this scene,
it starts in the living room, so here's an establishing
shot of the house, and then here's the inside of
the living room, and here's home close up of home
or walking in. So then I would take each scene
and I would listen to the audio and add basically
(31:18):
the acting. So the layout artist's job was sort of
to be an actor. So I would actually like kind
of come up with the poses. And so let's say,
if there was a scene that had you know, like
Homer is sitting on the couch and then he stands
up and says woo who and then walks out, I
would do the first pose of him sitting on the couch.
I would do what's called an antick where he's like
(31:38):
kind of about to jump up, and then I would
do a pose where his arms were up and opposed
where his arms were down. So basically it's like a
blueprint so that the in between artists, because those then
get shipped to a studio and Korea, then they will
fill in sort of the gaps um And I want
to take this moment to say that the artists that
work in the studio and Korea that do the in
between are incredible. Incredible artists are also so good. Um,
(32:02):
that was essentially it. And so it was it was
like it was a creative job in a way because
again it was at and you're working with the director.
So an animation director is sort of like helping guide you, like,
you know, here's here's my pitch for the acting. And
they might say like, well, there's a little two cartoonish,
we needed to be a bit more sitcomy and how
about you have home or do this rather than this
in a nutshell, But so it would be an example
of something that was too too oh man, Well, I
(32:25):
mean I can't think of a specific example, but I'll
say that, like part of the reason I got the job,
one of the things that helped me get the job
is I had watched the show so much and I
really understood, I really understood the subtlety of the acting.
Because you know, people might apply who are coming from
you know, Disney Feature or something and they are just
(32:46):
unbelievable animators, but they might not if they've never watched
the show. They might not understand, well, Homer isn't gonna
do like some Zaney cartoony, like goofy crazy acting. He's
gonna do more or of the acting you would see
on a TV show, like a like a like a
live action TV show. Now that was more true, you know,
(33:07):
a long time ago when I was working at this point,
I think everyone seen The Simpsons for everyone, everyone knows
what to expect sort of. But that was sort of it.
And so my first day when I started there, I
had I had actually gotten the rejection from the animation program.
And then I had, like, I actually had emailed a
friend of mine who was working at The Simpsons at
the time. He's kind of was a mentor of mine
(33:28):
with the family friend, and I told him how sad
I was, and you know I didn't just to be clear,
this is you're in undergrad Yeah, so I so I was.
I was working towards the b f A and animation
and illustration at San Jose State and I had taken
pretty much every class I could take before getting into
the program, and I had applied for the program and
(33:49):
it was a rough I mean, it was a hard year.
I might and honestly, let me say, I might not
have been ready for the program. I don't know. I
had taken a lot of time off because my mom
was sick, and so it was like my head was
in the clouds and it was just it was a
tough time and I wasn't you know, I wasn't really focused.
But after I didn't get in, I knew I wasn't
gonna be able to work on, you know, my major
for a year because I had you couldn't reply again
(34:11):
until the next year. And so that's when my friend
Brad Abelson, who was working at the Simpsons at the time,
told me, you know, if you apply for the job
and you're even like if you if you take this test,
this drawing test basically and you're even remotely good, I
will help you and I will tell you what needs
to get done and I will hand it in. But
if you're not quite there yet, I'll be honest with you.
(34:33):
And so I did it. I sent it to him.
He was like, you can't animate. We didn't say this.
I shouldn't say that. He said this. He basically he
basically like, you can draw well enough, and here are
the fixes that you need to do, and once you
do these fixes, I will hand it in for you.
They can't animate. That's me saying because I know I
couldn't animate. I'd never animated more in my life. He
didn't say that, but I knew I couldn't because illustrating
(34:53):
and animating are two really different things, because animating is
making an object move and illustrating is just drawing. And
so I could draw but couldn't animate. Well, how interesting
also that what you're eventually doing with your Yeah, it's
illustra and you know, I struggle. One of the reasons
I struggled at the Simpsons is because I'm not really
good at animating. I draw really clean and really stiff,
and uh, it's and animators don't draw that way. Animators
(35:17):
are loose and flowy drawings, and it's just not the
way I draw. Well. Also, how perfect, how perfect that
you were doing the key art, which is the you know,
the what's like photo, what's what's the word? I'm looking
for the snapshot of every moment, but not the animating
in between. Well, and there's a place for everyone. You know,
there are people there at the studio who were known for,
oh give this, give this scene to so and so,
(35:38):
because you know she's really good at at animating. And
she'll do like a really beautiful fluid drawing. She'll make this,
She'll give the itchy and scratchy stuff to so and
so because she's going to make like a really really cool,
fun animated scene. Give this scene, this heartfelt scene between
Homer and Maggie to Liz, because Liz is good at
doing really subtle, like nuanced acting. And that was That's
(36:00):
what I realized eventually that I was good at. And
it's sort of translated then into my comics because it's
that's sort of what I'm doing in my comics now,
is sort of like very subtle stuff. But everyone had
their own sort of thing that they were good at,
and they're all different kinds of artists there, and everyone
was sort of like kind of doing their thing. It's
interesting too, because back when stuff was on paper and
it would get handed off to different people, I could
see after being there a long enough time, I could
(36:21):
see a drawing and know exactly who did it in
the studio. But I just so used to seeing everyone's stuff. Um,
that may completely made me lose my train of thought
of where I was going to Actually that you, I mean,
this is a conversation. That's the sort of. It also
brings us back to that initial cartoon that we were
(36:42):
talking about with the snake and the help, because there
is something about the subtlety of your of these moments
that you captured that is about what's sort of hidden
underneath rather than like what's being performed. Yeah, I try
really hard to not hit you over the head with
whatever I'm trying to say. And I guess that is
sort of lends itself to if I'm trying to appeal
(37:05):
to as many people as possible, then it has to
be sort of broad and it can't be too like specific,
So I I sort of try to like, I don't know,
open up. I guess the idea a bit. But but
what's broad? I mean, it's interesting because we're we're what's
broad is the universal human experience. But what's But it's
funny because the universal human experiences we're talking about are
those moments when we're actually not being broad. You know,
(37:28):
we're not telegraphing I have a huge emotion right now,
but rather covering, which is what so much of human
interactions is. You know, that's a really good Oh, I
have something really weird and little going on here. When
it's really like h you know, yeah, I know that's
a that's a really really good point, and that's true.
I guess one other question, because it feels like it's
(37:49):
relevant for this podcast, is, um, I don't know anything
about the animation world in terms of UM, gender parody.
Was there any thing that felt like there was sort
of approving yourself element to your experience that wasn't just
because you were new to it? Yes, there was, UM.
I think a lot of it has gotten better since
(38:11):
I left the studio, but absolutely when I yeah back,
actually yeah, you know, I was twenty two when I started.
I was twenty three. Sorry. When I started there, Britney
Spears was the top of the charts. Low Rise jeans
were you know, what was hot and half like I was.
I was twenty three and dressing like like a twenty
(38:32):
three year old woman and you know, walked into that
place and I won't say everyone, but a lot of people,
you know, started spreading rumors about how I got the
job and why I was there, and um that, you know,
coupled with the fact that I was already feeling like
I didn't belong because I, you know, had just gotten
rejected from this animation program. I had to prove to
myself and everybody else that I belonged there. It was
(38:54):
much harder to prove to myself. Not to excuse the behavior,
but it was a boys club and it had been
for a long time. There weren't a lot of women there,
and the women who were who were working there, you know,
they all kind of gave me a heads up and
told me how it was and like this is you know,
this is the way it is, and UM, I will
say since then that a lot of that is has disappeared.
I think when I started, it was me and another girl.
We're sharing a cubicle. I think there was maybe one
(39:16):
other two other female director or a d S and
then a couple other women in studio, but it was
mostly men and UM. Not everyone was like this, but
a lot of them. We were saying that I was
there because um not because of my work. So that
was I had to I had to get over that,
and I worked really hard. I mean I worked. I
would have worked hard anyway I had. There was an
assistant director who worked there who passed away. His name
(39:38):
was James O'Brien. He was the first assistant director I
worked with UM and I give him so much credit
for he basically told and this is aside from gender
and and who I was and what I looked like
and all of that, he basically said, you know, you're new,
and um, you're you're I'm not saying you're not good
enough to be here, but you need to prove that
you belong here because a lot of people want this job,
and so you're gonna have to work really hard and
(39:58):
people are gonna have to see you were really hard.
And so I did, and um, and he was right.
And so that was aside from the rumors and aside
from everything else. But I kind of took that as like,
you know, all right, you think that I don't belong here,
and this is why I'm here. I'm going to prove
you wrong. I'm gonna show you why I am here.
And I did. So that's great too, because you know,
getting feedback like that can also be paralyzing. I mean,
(40:18):
it can either make you rise to the occasion or
it can you feel like, how do I how do
I be an artist in the environment. And I was
already very vulnerable at that time, so so yeah, it
was it was tough, but you know, I figured it out, so,
and I guess the final question then that that leads
to is how did you start the Tumbler And what
(40:40):
is your relationship between sort of working for somebody versus
working for yourself? So the tumbling creatively speaking, you know, yeah,
so the Tumbler was actually an effort of sort of
an exercise in accountability because I was doing, you know,
more and more of my own stuff sort of just
with friends, like we were playing. It actually started with
because I hadn't really drawn my own stuff for a
(41:03):
few years after having started on The Simpsons, because I
was so focused on just drawing the Simpsons. But then
I ended up playing a Dungeons and Dragons game with
like a group of friends, and so I would because
I'm really cool, and so I obviously I would end
up like illustrating each night like I would do. I
would draw like what was happening and um create little
(41:24):
like funny vignettes of like different scenes. And so my
husband Colin, who was my boyfriend at the time, you know,
he he sort of encouraged me, like because he he
has seen my sort of imposter syndrome and action He's like,
you know, you're good, you should you should post, put out,
do do more drawings, and then put out what you're
doing and just let other people see it. Well. Interestingly, also,
(41:45):
he's a man in animation. Yes, so it's almost like
he was sort of lending you his confidence and that's
absolutely right. Yeah, And he and he and I actually
started very similarly where he we were both really young.
We both hadn't gone to he was younger than me.
I think he was like I think he was like
nine when he started on The Simpsons and he hadn't
gone to college. And so but you're right, it was
sort of like I am, I'm I'm saying you should
(42:08):
do this, and I'm giving you the confident you know,
and and and I trust him and and and his judgment,
and I needed I needed a little a little push
and then I just started for myself at that time,
and uh, I'm grateful and I'm now I'm just pushing
myself all along the way. So well, and also to
tie it in with what you said about your mom,
like that, it seems like the journey was to become
(42:29):
your own cheerleader. Definitely, And yeah, I've definitely, um, I've
definitely gotten better at that. That's real for all of us. Yeah,
that's real. Real. Um, okay, we're gonna take a quick
break and find out who you brought in for us. Okay,
(42:51):
so we're back, Um, Liz tell us who you brought up? Oh,
I brought in Lizzo. I actually have a cardboard cut
out of her behind me. I should I should just
like take it down and bring it and hold it
up so you can see her. Did you go to
did you go to her concert when she was an
ls I did? I had a feeling, Yeah, I definitely did.
(43:13):
I'm a big I'm a big Lisso fan. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean who is everyone? I mean, you know, everyone
loves her. She's she's wonderful, but um, she's probably like
I don't remember ever being so like excited to see
someone in live and live and see someone live in
concert because she's just she's just she's great. She's a
(43:35):
great singer, she's beautiful, she's a force. She's amazing to watch, Like,
I don't know, it was just it was such a great,
a great feeling. I remember going to that concert and
I think it was like in October. Let's take a
moment for being in the same room with other humans.
I know, it's so it seems so far. It's funny
because it's like, if that seems so far away, I'm
trying to like search my brain for that memory. But
(43:55):
it was such a great I mean just looking around
the audience and seen so many different looking people. Everyone
looked so comfortable and so happy, and the room just
felt and looked like love in a way that I
don't think I'd ever seen or felt before. And it
was just such a great feeling and honest, like, to
be honest, I'm struggling to sort of describe it now
(44:18):
because it seems so far away now because it just,
you know, it's such as we're in such a difficult
time right now. But that was it's such a great
memory of just like everyone in one place just embodying
this beauty and this this spirit. That was just so
I don't know, it was very it was very moving.
Um let's take a quick Leston thank you for that.
(44:41):
You know, you grow up, you go to school for
a little bit, and they teach you about one America
and then you learn that there's another America. And I've
been um heartbroken by it for most of my life.
This is a outright slow genocide so it's eighteen sixties.
(45:01):
We're seeing the activism that happens is incredible to me.
Seeing white allies, privileged allies is even more incredible. That
is the only way the system breaks. I pulled up
from her I G t V because, um, you know,
one of the things that is so meaningful about how
she communicates is that it just feels very raw and
(45:23):
very I mean, you know, the world authentic comes to mind.
She's not wearing any makeup, she's holding the camera really
close to her. She's not she's not following any of
you know, the sort of Hollywood guidelines on how to
feminize yourself, how to look beautiful, because it's just not
about that, and because obviously, as we well know, she's
(45:44):
on you know, a self love crusade, and that would
feel really inauthentic, I think. But you know, along with
the message, the end result when we're watching is such
a deep sense of candor. Absolutely, I really and I
you know, she really, she's she's very It's tough with
(46:05):
social media because you know, like especially for someone like
me who's I'm so private, and just to to see
her sort of speak openly, and also you know, like
about mental health and like how she's feeling, and like
just being open with with her audience, knowing full well
that not everyone is going to respond to her, you know, nicely,
because that's just the Internet, you know, that's just the
way it goes. I really appreciate that, and I think
(46:28):
it's helping so many people. I think it's helping so
many people to see this clearly just beautiful woman who
you know, doesn't maybe necessarily look like what we were told,
you know, to strive to look like for so much
what their duty industry would like us to believe. No exactly,
and and it's such a it's such a charade, like
(46:50):
none of that makes it. It It doesn't even matter. Like
I remember showing my daughter, you know, like everyone else,
I really loves her music, and she asked me once, um,
She's like, can I see a picture of her? I've
never seen her? And I was like, oh sure, And
I showed her a picture of her and she was like,
I don't remember what picture was, but she's just like
it's a full body picture. She's wearing like a red dress,
and it's just she looks, you know, gorgeous. And my
daughter was like, Mommy, she's a most beautiful woman I've
(47:10):
ever seen in my life. And I was like, yes,
she is. I agree, she's a beautiful woman. And it's
just it's just nice that, like, I'm so thrilled that,
you know, my daughter has someone like that to look
up to as far as like physical beauty, inner beauty, talent, ambition,
Like it's just a she's just a very very powerful woman.
(47:30):
I want to pull out two things also from what
you just said that I think is helpful for everybody
to think about two in terms of their own you know,
Lizza with him oh god, um. One, the gamble of
being vulnerable and having haters, but being vulnerable anyway, and
trusting that the gamble part of it is trusting that
that well, you'll connect with more people by being real
(47:52):
rather than fewer. And the other part of it is
in this time when we feel really leaderless, she is
one of the leaders of our time. And what it
is to look into a lens and say something that's
true with no frills and provide a space for people to,
you know, like sit with that truth, to feel the
(48:13):
celebration of it and to feel the horror of it,
and to feel you know that there's work to be
done is a style of leadership that is not what
we were talking about in school. Yeah, that's really true.
That's a really good point, and we really need we
need as many people like that right now as possible,
you know. And to die back to you, my my
stunning guest. Um, you know you've talked about a number
(48:36):
of times you've mentioned your privateness and how you're not
using social media in that way, you know, and how
much you're you're sharing of your heart through your art,
like thinking about yourself as a leader in that long
you know, I mean obviously leader with a lower kids
l right, I'm I'm just on this kick for all
of us to think about the ways in our life
that we can lead. Not that there's anything wrong with
(48:57):
following great leaders too. I'm not saying that that the
is like a one size fits all. If we think
of ourselves as a leader, we're we're never followers. I
don't mean that at all, But I mean, you know,
if we can define leadership broadly enough that what we're
saying is that we will stand up for ourselves and
we will stand up for people. Yeah, I think it's
such a better way to think about And then there's
like fewer steps for us to go from that that
(49:19):
sort of mind shift, mind shift, whatever paradigm shift in
our mind into oh, now I actually will take the
mic when somebody asks me to say something that matters. Yeah,
I think you know, people want to be seen and
people want to be heard, and if people aren't being
seen and people aren't being heard, people get frustrated, and
rightfully so, and so anything we can do to sort
(49:41):
of like make people feel like they're being acknowledged and
their pain is being acknowledged and what they're feeling is
real is a small step in the right direction as
a I mean, yeah, yeah, but that's something that we
can do that isn't That is another way of defining
leadership to for sure, for sure. And also, you know,
a sort of stereotypically more femin democratized version all right leadership,
(50:02):
right because there is a sort of hierarchical sense of
like follow me, I'm it's best versus this sort of
like consensus building um sense of I see you and
your contribution. Let's you know, let's let's celebrate everybody's contributions
and then and then some truth will emerge out of
that some play yeah and Let's not just bury what
you might feel sad or angry or frustrated about. Let's
(50:25):
not just like push that aside. That is Yeah, let's
see what's maake, what shape the scene exactly? Liz, thank
you so much for joining me. Thank you so much,
especially as a private person. I appreciate you opening up
too well. Thank you. Yes, as a pleasure to be here.
(50:46):
Thank you to Liz for talking to us today. You
can find out more about her in the show notes
or on our website Permission to Speak pot dot com.
Every Thursday now, I am doing an I G Live
at eleven a M plus ethic at Permission to Speak
pod on Instagram. So check out my stories and continue
to send me d M S voice memos messages at
(51:09):
the Instagram at the website. We'll do a mail bag
episode coming up, and I would love to know what's
going on with your voice, what's speaking up feels like?
How you need help, where you're stuck. Thanks to Sophie
Lifterman and the team at I Heeart Radio, my family
and cohort and all of you, we are recording this
podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on Land that
(51:31):
is the historic gathering place for the Tonga indigenous tribe,
and you can visit U s d a c dot
us to learn more about honoring native land. Permission to
Speak is a production of My Heart Radio and Double
Vision Executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark Canton.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, listen on the
I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
(51:53):
your favorite shows.
Today's quote is from Naera Wahid. I love listening. It
is one of the only places where you can be
still and moved at the same time. Welcome to Permission
to speak. The podcast about how we talk and how
(00:21):
we get ourselves hurd with me, samar Abe. This week's
guest is Liz climb Out. Even if you don't know
her name, you probably know her art over The Little
Book of Liz on Tumbler and on her Instagram and
on coffee tables and classrooms around the world. Her cartoons
(00:45):
of animals talking to each other against a simple white
background speak volumes. I feel like everything about them is
both simple and also profound. I wanted to have Liz
on because I wanted to talk about the process of
being creative during times of insane uncertainty, and what the
(01:06):
role of laughter and joy and innocence is in wildly
unsettling times. And also, you guys. Before branching out on
her own, and Liz worked for over a decade drawing
on The Simpsons, and I wanted to know all the goods,
first of all, on what that culture is like, and
second of all how she left it all behind. This
(01:28):
is Liz, Liz yes, thank you for being here, Thank
you for having me here. In quote, UM, yeah, I
want to start actually talking about how ideas happened for you.
(01:51):
I want to talk about what you Yeah, what's your processes?
It is, Um, it's one of a couple of different things.
Either I am really, you know, just going about my
business on a walk, doing my thing, just kind of
like living my life, and some an idea just pops
into my head. That's, you know, that's what that's what
I want to happen. That's like the best case scenario.
(02:13):
That's pretty rare, and those are usually the ideas that
I end up liking the most. The rest of the time,
I'm like staring out the window and just trying to
grasp at straws and hope that an idea comes to me.
Or I'll go on a walk, um, or I'll just
kind of like put myself out into the world. An
idea sort of come to me that way. So this
has been sort of an interesting time because I don't
(02:33):
really do that anymore. I don't really like go out
into the world or leave the house a whole lot anymore.
So it's a lot of just sort of like taking
in information and digesting it and trying to uh create
right now. It's a big part of it is just
trying to create something with a lot of intention that
I I feel like people might want to see your
need to see um and be really aware of that,
(02:55):
Whereas before it was kind of just like this is goofy,
I'll just you know, here's a funny idea. I'll just
kind of you know, put on paper or on the
computer screen and see how it goes. Yeah, that's interesting though,
So it feels like you're the intentionality is a new
idea that you're trying to sort of rise to the times. Yes,
I feel I feel um well, because somewhere along the way,
(03:17):
like at first, you know, I've been doing comics for
quite a few years now, probably like I don't know,
like seven years. I mean my whole life really, but
I've been actually like posting them for like seven because
I went to where that back and I mean, if
you if I were to go back and and look
at some of the earlier ones, and I don't do
that very often because there's some of them are real
cringeing for me to look at. But it was really
just trying to, you know, make people laugh what would
(03:38):
would this make me laugh? Or is this something that
I might have said that made a friend laugh? And
how can I have that translate into a comic. But
somewhere along the way, I started realizing that the comics
I was doing a particular were resonating with people who
felt sort of like they hadn't they aren't seen in
the way that they'd like to be seen, or or
they just feel kind of um, you know, or even
even if you don't feel that way, I just it
(03:59):
just occurred to me that people were responding to it
in them in a really positive way, in a way
that made me feel like, not even a responsibility, but
just I wanted to create more work like that that
made people feel good and maybe people feel seen. So
now that we're in, you know, a legitimate crisis, I
really am and keeping that, you know in my mind,
and it's like, what could I do? How can I
sort of like create some mean that even if it
(04:21):
doesn't even have to be some huge statements, so much
as just like you know, I realized people are scrolling
Twitter and scrolling Instagram and seeing my work that way,
what could be something that they could pause and sort
of just take a breath amongst everything else that's just
really really heavy and hard um and just sort of
like kind of collect their thoughts and just have like
a nice moment of like a giggle. Basically. Yeah, it's
interesting that you talk about it in those terms because
(04:42):
it makes me think about what the role is of
humor and and joy in the midst of you know,
like collective trauma and and thinking about what you do
in those terms, rather than it feeling like, you know,
it's frivolous and it's over there and shouldn't deserve the uh,
you know, grave a toss of other stuff, thinking of
it as a as a bomb or as something that
(05:05):
you know is is for these times. Yeah, and and
you know, there's a lot of really really I mean,
there's it's an understatement. There's so much beautiful work and
so many people saying so many beautiful things and relevant
things and important things in art. And I appreciate seeing
all that stuff, and I appreciate like having all that
stuff out in the world, and I consume it and
I'm like so grateful. But then somewhere along the way,
(05:27):
I realized that my own stuff, it's something else, that's
something lighter and that's okay, And that's that sort of
like what I realized I was good at and I
just kind of leaned into it, and I'm like, well,
let me do more of this, because I feel like
I can do this in a way that's very subtle
and not too heavy handed. Because the stuff that I
tend to like is dark, is much darker than the
stuff that I do myself, like I have like a
(05:48):
darker sense of humor, but I don't do that as well,
and I don't, you know, just because I might find
something funny doesn't mean other people might not find it
not funny or offensive. And I don't want to be
the person that's creating that stuff. I want to just
try to create light if I can, as much as possible.
Tell us specifically about one of the most recent ones.
(06:10):
Um as we record this at least on your on
your tumbler with the snake that says it's fine, Oh
that's sane. Help, Yeah, So that that's actually I mean,
that's just me. We sore where we live. We're really
lucky where we live because we have we have neighbors
on every side of us, and we're we're friends with
all of the neighbors, and so we haven't we haven't
(06:31):
actually like gone over to anyone house anyone's houses, or
had anyone at our houses um or even gone into
each other's yards. But we can see into each other's
yards and we can, you know, talk and at a
safe distance, and my daughter can talk to their kids
at a safe distance. But I think it was literally
that morning that my neighbor was like, how are you
And I was like, oh, I'm fine, and he was
like yeah, and I'm like no, and he's like yeah,
me either. It's just like because that's what we do,
(06:54):
you know. And me personally, I try to put on
sort of like a happy face I always have, and
I tend to sort of push my feelings down, and
sometimes I even have to tell myself like, hey, you
you need to ask for help right now. You're not okay.
Like even even I'm even telling myself like, oh, you're fine,
it's fine, everything's fine, it'll be okay. Stop worrying and
(07:15):
stop this. And sometimes it's important to I mean, it's
important to recognize when you need task for help from somebody.
So I was like, oh, this, how could I How
could I convey this in a comic, and so that
was the goal of that one, and tell for for
people who aren't looking at it, what's the enders. So
I was actually I started doing um like trying to
stick to a schedule. On Instagram or on Mondays, I
(07:35):
post either an old comic or a new comic that
I did specifically sort of with the hashtag Monday Mood,
and it was mostly it's it's supposed to sort of
convey how I'm feeling that day and ask people how
how they're feeling. And so this particular one is a
bird on a branch and it's asking a snake. I
think it's asking how are you, and the snake saying fine,
but the snake is actually twisting its body into the
word help. So it's like, yeah, I'm fine, but obviously
(07:58):
it's crying for help. It wants to how it's actually feeling.
And sometimes it's really hard for us to do so
or me anyway, So yeah, I honed it on that
one because it felt I mean, you know, it's so
deep at the same time as being you know, silly
and and sweet. Well, and you know it's hard when
you have I have you know, again, have a six
(08:19):
year old and you know, as a parents, like this
is so much I want. I want to, you know,
be light and silly and fun, and I want to
be because she's an only child, so it's like I
want to be a playmate for her, and but I
also want to, you know, give her a stable home
and give her you know, I have to feed her
and be her teacher and also get this work done.
And so a lot of times I have to sort
of just sort of say to myself, like, hey, it's
(08:39):
okay if you if you if you're not doing everything
perfectly right now, because chances are I'm not doing anything
even close to her right now. So cut yourself some slack,
is sort of the message, and ask for help if
you need it. How do you in the in the
process part of it, You know, you're talking about where
ideas come from, but specifically for people listening who are
(09:00):
creatives and who are trying to figure out even even
in the before times, but specifically now for people who
are stuck at home and maybe do have families and
and you know, obligations. Do you have a set schedule
or how do you get yourself to sit down or
is sitting down even the most you know at a
consistent time, even the most useful way to be creative. Yeah. See,
(09:20):
it's tough because I am I'm really I'm very type
A in a lot of ways where I do have
to sort of give myself a bit of a schedule
because if I don't, I just am as the laziest
person you've ever met. Like, if I'm not like cranking
at work and trying to get a lot done, then
I'm not doing anything. So it's been hard for me
to find that balance right now because that's not possible.
So lately, the days sort of look like, so my
(09:40):
husband's working full time and I technically am, you know, freelancing,
and I'm I can kind of set my own schedule.
So his work, like he has meetings in the morning
and stuff. So I take my daughter quote unquote take
my daughter to school and we do zoom together and
like I do her homework with her, and then by
the time she's done, it's usually lunch time. And then um,
(10:01):
I have like a two or three hour chunk where
I try to get everything done and it's really hard.
I actually just wrapped a calendar that I was doing
and I had to do a big chunk of new comics,
and so I was trying to get like three comics
done a day. And I used to be able to,
like my routine was to get up in the morning
and go on a walk along Like I would take
like a one or two hour walk and just write
(10:21):
the entire time and take notes down and like get
try to find and how are you like walking and
writing like you mean literally with my phone, I would
just take notes or I would like do audio messages,
and I would just like if ideas came to my head.
But I can't do that anymore. So I'm trying to
like just if I have an idea, not second guess it,
crank it out and then like kind of revisit it
and be like is this good or are you just
(10:42):
that's gonna be? Yeah? That's my other part of question
is how do you know what's good? And how do
you know what it's bad? I actually I don't know,
and and uh, it's tough. I have no idea and
I'm and then i'm you know, then there's the guilt
of like are you just you know, is are you
even just producing good work right now? Are you? Like? Why?
It's just it's hard. It's a lot and uh, if
(11:06):
it's any consolation, I feel like I'm doing a terrible show.
So I feel like if anyone else out there is
like having a hard time, it's just a hard time
to be creative because there's just so much else going
on and so many feelings and no, none of the
I mean, I say distractions in the most positive way possible,
like just seeing friends, going you know, to the beach,
(11:29):
and like just being around people and going to barbecues.
All that stuff that like where I would find inspiration
and I would just find joy is gone. So I'm
sort of looking internally a lot more. And that is
also you know, that's that's also sort of a positive
thing as well. It's just it's just very uncomfortable. So yeah,
I've I've been thinking a lot about how for me
(11:51):
with my creative projects. Um, I feel like the concept
of creativity is so tied up for me in the
concept of optimism. Yeah, I mean actually makes me think
of that sort of classic idea that the most optimistic
thing you could do is have a child, because there's
like you're you're assuming that there's a future that you
want them to grow up in. Uh, And I think
that's the same with like generating you know, a piece
(12:13):
of creative work, definitely. And at first, you know, when
I set the schedule up for myself on Instagram, where
it was like Monday, you know, I tell what mood
I'm in, and Wednesday I try to like, you know,
I find something that I like that I was positive
online during the week or you know, what have you.
The first month or so, there was a lot of unity.
It felt like people were sort of like all on
(12:35):
the you know, everyone was sort of you know, quote
unquote in this together, and so it felt like there
was more room for me to feel like positive and
optimistic and like you know, kind of like cheerleading. And
then you know, as time went by, it was harder
for me to sort of to do that because it's
like I don't feel this way anymore, and like, I
don't know, there's just a lot of everything is sort
(12:57):
of changing, and I'm trying to continuously give sort of
a just a hopeful not in everything's going to be
okay message or like we're all okay, but like not
necessarily that just as you know, you got through today,
and good for you for getting through today. That's pretty
much it. That's really it, and that's all I want
to say like that, and so it's hard to sort
(13:19):
of find different ways to do that, but I'm trying.
So there's two places I want to go with that.
One is I read somewhere that your comics are or
your carchon what you call them? What what's what terms?
What if they have a quote unquote innocent silliness, And
I wonder if that's connected to this idea that they're here.
I mean, I also read that that you're that you're
(13:41):
huge in China, and obviously you're huge in our our
own country as well. But you know, this idea of
the universality of innocence, Yeah, I do. I do try
to um, you know, part of being trying to be
as aware of as possible of like every different person
who may be looking at it, you do sort of
have to whittle whittle it down to the most sort
(14:02):
of like I guess broad idea and um or like
foundational or like a foundational human feeling. Yeah, so it's
not they're not specific a lot of times, just kind
of like a feeling that I hopefully everyone can relate to.
And I think a lot of times that does lead
back to sort of being innocent and silly. Do you
actually think about themes that come up a lot in
your work? You know what I have? I mean, I
(14:24):
don't know if I actually really have. I didn't. I didn't.
It was not a question on my list, but it
does feel like when you say that it is it
makes me. I mean, there's certain characters that show up
a lot. Well yeah, and and you know, I have
sort of gone back and forth a lot about, you know,
especially earlier on about like oh maybe I should give
you know them names or like create their backgrounds a
(14:44):
little bit more like kind of create stories for them,
a little more solid stories for each of them. And
I've sort of as I've gone forward doing comics, you know,
I've have projects like books and stuff that I'm working
on where I do sort of maybe pick and choose
the characters or like create stories for Like Rory and Dad,
for instance, have like their own sort of little backstory now,
but a lot of the other ones I've kind of
(15:05):
decided along the way just to keep simple and not
put a background. Like everything is they're basically an a
void and it's sort of just like they each sort
of just represent an emotion or a feeling. So it's
not like the characters are really like you know, there
are a little personalities here in that shine through, Like
the bear and the rabbit are very you know, they
have very like specific personalities. The bears me and the
(15:25):
rabbits my husband. So that's where those come from, my coffee.
But for the most part, they're not really like characters
so much as just like representational of of sort of
feelings I think, and things that we might be able
to relate to. And it's not nothing that they're animals. Yeah,
So honestly, part of the reason I draw animals is
because I don't really like drawing people that much. And
(15:47):
I worked on The Simpsons for so long that when
you work on this is something that's like very true
in animation. If you've been working on a show for
a long time, it's really hard to break out of
the style. So you'll notice that, Like if if a
person creates a new show and they have a long
history at another show, the new show will look a
little like that old show. And it's not that they're
not you know, great artists, or that they're not like creative,
(16:07):
it's just that that's it's just really hard to break
from that, because you know, you've learned so much when
you're working on a TV show and you're drawing these
characters every day. So in part, I was really trying
to just get away from the Simpsons as much as possible.
As much as I love the Simpsons, I just didn't
want to know that's why their eyes are dots and
like I don't. I didn't want them to look like
Santa's little helper, you know. I wanted them to look different.
So there's part that, and then there's part again just
(16:29):
like the universality of like anyone can relate to, like,
you know, any one of these characters, because it's just
it's just a little bit more broad and it's not
like here's a person who looks just like me. It's like,
now here is a feeling that everybody can probably identify with. Yeah, yeah, okay,
Well we're going to talk about the Simpsoms after the break,
but before that, I do want to specifically, I guess,
since you brought it up, tell us how you think
(16:52):
about your audience, because obviously some of this is for
adults and rings really true for us, and some of
it is four kids or is appropriate for kids. And
it's used for kids. Do you think about like kids storytelling,
like storytelling for kids and what that is? You know,
I've been thinking about that more lately as I sort
of because I've done especially in contrast to The Simpsons.
(17:14):
I mean, yeah, well, and I grew up watching the Simpsons.
I know that, like you know it. I started watching
The Simpsons when it came out. I think I was
seven or eight. I was Bart's age when however old
Bart is, That's how old I was, And then I
watched it all the way through, but Barts stayed the
same as yeah we're both still eight. Um. But so
something about the Simpsons not always having it's not always
(17:39):
necessarily quote unquote child friendly, I guess, but it has
such heart and that is sort of my takeaway. So like,
if you look at some of my earlier comic compilations,
I would use like bad language and some of them
so like you know, like for the most part, they're
mostly family friendly, but like one of them I would
say like damn it or something, and without thinking ahead,
I mean, I had no idea they were going to
be made into a book. I was, so I wasn't
(18:00):
like really thinking too much, but the language isn't as
um important to me, is like the intention. And now
as i'm you know, as I have more of an
audience and I've put out more books, and it's more
clear to me that children will be reading these books
because I do really now want it to be something
that everybody can consume and everybody can enjoy on some level.
(18:21):
So I purposely don't use bad language anymore for that reason,
because I don't want bad lange bad language, I know,
because I understand, you know, not everybody people might have
strong feelings about that. I don't. I mean, I do
not like we don't. We don't really care about that.
I don't think I think it's I think it's bullshit.
I think that people because you know, I don't think it.
I think what matters is where you're what you're saying,
(18:41):
not the words you're using. Necessarily Like it doesn't seem
like a high priority for me, however, I want to
be aware of, you know, parents who I want as
many people as possible to be able to enjoy it.
So without getting sappy or moblin, I want to sort
of like have you know, sort of like a sweetness
and a gentleness, but hopefully still do funny work. Have
you gotten letters from people who have stayed with you? Yes,
(19:04):
anything that you can think of, any specific stories. Honestly,
it's fine if people people have no I don't mean that.
I don't mean that, I mean like good letters. I
mean like, do you have people have people written, you know,
as they've integrated this into their schools or into their homes. Like,
do you get notes from people that are really heartening? Yes?
I get I get all kinds of letters, and I
will say that they're mostly really positive, and I feel
(19:26):
so removed from you know, I guess the readership in
a lot of ways. So that like when people do
write me and they tell me, you know, this comic
really helped me get through a tough time, it's just
I'm so I mean, humbled is not even the right word.
It's just I'm floored. It's like I just I feel,
I don't know, it's just amazing. And that's what makes
me want to keep doing them, because I'm like, Wow,
this little thing, this idea that I had is someone
(19:48):
you know, it really helped someone. Well, then I have
to do more. I have to keep doing these, and
I have to keep doing them right and being really
careful about what I'm saying and be willing to apologize
if I say something wrong, you know, just learn from
like basically, Yeah, it strikes me as the first part
of our conversation about sort of how to find optimism
(20:09):
during this time. You're also in relation to your readers,
your lookers on like because of the Internet, because of tumbler.
But you know, it's not like you're doing this in
a void and hoping it resonates with somebody in a
year when it gets published. I mean you're really interacting, yes,
especially you know with stuff that I'm posting. I am
posting online right away. There are other things that like,
(20:31):
for instance, the comics I was talking about earlier, those
won't be seen for like a year by anyone, so
I'm not I'm not going to post them. So I
have to keep that in mind too, because it's like,
oh am, I you know, talking about something that's relevant
right now, especially because all I want to do right
now is talk about what's going on in the world.
But that might not feel as um immediate you know,
year note or people might not want to talk about
(20:51):
it a year from now. You know, they might like
about quarantine or anything, they might just want to get
away from it, and the who the whole future casting
thing for any of us who are trying to do
stuff that won't come out for a year, and you know,
I I'm I'm honored to think of myself in the
you know, pantheon of people who are trying to think
long term. But also like I, Okay, we have to
(21:15):
take a quick break. We will be back and we're
gonna talk about the sense. During the break, Uh, Lizz
was asking me where I got this tapestry that many
of you have seen behind me, And the answer is
Society six dot com, which is a great place for
(21:37):
um supporting artists it is, and also for decorating your house. Yes,
they have great stuff. It's it's really user friendly, like
as I'm so not tech savvy. It's but let me
finish the plug, which is that you can also find
Lizza's stuff there. We've been talking about I'm bad at computers.
(21:58):
I'm interrupting. You're telling you about how bad. Yes, Society
six says, I have I have a whole shop there.
I try to keep it up. Um, I haven't been
as good about keeping it up lately, but I do.
If there's like I will say, people will email me
and be like, oh, I saw this comic and I
really want on a shirt or I really want on
a print, and I almost always will just put it
up that day so that people can. So if you
(22:18):
see something you liking it's not up there, then just
email me. So in my emails I got that's amazing service.
M Well, but I also want to talk for a second,
because there's a there's a thread of humility and everything
that you do and talk about, and I wonder if
that's something you're aware of and sort of deliberate about.
Like I'm thinking about the fact that you call it
(22:40):
the Little Book, right, the Little Book of Liz and that,
and that when you go to your tumbler it says
I can draw and then in print. This is sort
of oh my gosh. No, I've never really thought about that,
But you're totally right, like, and I think it's half intentional.
It's just not the sort of person I am. I'm
I'm just not really like, I don't know, I I see,
(23:03):
I feel even weird trying to talk about it right now.
It's just not it's just not my im nature. But
on the other hand, I will be honest. I think
a lot of it is also just me being like,
oh I might just kind of um, not embarrassed, but like,
uh yeah, just sort of like why is my work
so popular? I'm not I know a lot of artists
that are a lot better than me. I know a
lot of artists who are doing amazing. So it's sort
(23:24):
of like a you know, I'm not proud of that.
Is that I'm sort of just saying like, oh, it's
you know, it's not a big deal. And I'm trying
to get better at being proud of myself and owning
what I'm saying and owning my work because you know,
a lot of it I guess what I'm trying to
say is the other half of it is it just
kind of my own ship. It's just like me being
just sort of not owning and being proud of what
(23:45):
I've I've done. I'm getting better at it. But for
a long time, I think because I didn't you know,
I went to animation school or attempted to go to
animation school, but I didn't get in. And my next
question and then on the Simpsons, I would actually like
had a applied for a couple of jobs moving up
um here and there, like you know, storyboard artists or
jobs that were above what I was doing, and I
(24:05):
didn't get those. And so I think for a long
time I went from like sort of being just the
the artist who's scraping by. I mean, and I say
that being fully aware that I was working on The Simpsons,
which I am super grateful for, but I also just
had sort of this feeling of like I'm not quite
good enough to be here, I don't quite belong. I'm
on the chopping block. Any day now they're going to realize,
(24:25):
you know, like the imposter syndrome that a lot of
people feel. And so I went from that to doing
really well within a couple of years. And so I
think it's half humility and half just me sort of
not really accepting that I'm any good to be honest,
like just like I'm like like that you're in the
process of catching up to yourself. I'm doing I'm yeah,
I'm working on that. I'm trying to get because you know,
(24:47):
it's kind of um, it's a waste of time in
a way. I mean, it's just you know, that's not
that's not important. What's important is how people are responding
to and how people receive it and how it's making
them feel, and worrying about whether or not it's any
good On my behalf, I think it's I personally feel
like it's kind of a waste of time. It's like,
just keep doing the work and get better and and
be proud of yourself. There's this this famous Maryann Williamson
quote that Nelson Mandela quoted in a in a speech,
(25:11):
so it's sometimes attributed to either one of them, but um,
about our habits of playing small and how that doesn't
help anybody. But I mean something that comes up on
this podcast too, because it's about how we use our
voices and how we navigate spaces that don't necessarily seem
like they're made for us, is um, there are reasons
that we play small that serve us. Yeah, yeah, that
(25:33):
makes sense. I mean, especially if you're a woman, especially
if you're from any sort of marginalized group. You know,
we've picked up the memo that people would like us
to play small and be really unintimidating. And there's something about,
you know, sort of that's like don't worry, don't worry,
you have to think for my breeches. You know, no,
You're absolutely right, and I think, yeah, again, I think
(25:54):
it's just I think it's a combination of that and
just wanting people to sort of like, I guess take
me out of the equation and just sort of because
I also, I also, like purposefully don't have a huge
social media presence personally, Like I I have a following,
and I post a lot of like work and right
now I'm work post a lot of other people's work
(26:15):
so that people can see it. But when it comes
to like me personally, I am not interested in really
letting people in partially because I'm private, I'm a private person,
and also because it just doesn't seem like it's necessary,
Like that's not what I want people. That's not the
message I want to give. I would rather just people
see my work. Um. So I think it's also in
part that it's like I'm not as important in this situation.
But I am also very aware of the fact that
(26:37):
I need to be sort of more proud of my work.
And I wonder if you're thinking about the proud of
your work, you know, mission in relation also to having
a daughter that yeah, that's actually a good point. Um.
I think it's I think it's a combination of a
lot of things. I think I think it was literally
like within the same month of not getting into this
(26:59):
animation program, my mom also died and she'd been sick
for a few years. And she was always, like, I
mean to say the very least, like my biggest cheerleader.
And so I sort of and I was, I was
twenty one always, I always I should know, but I
always kind of go. It was I was like twenty
one and a half when she passed away, But so
I had to after she died. It was like I
(27:20):
had to sort of find in within myself all that
love and um pride that she had for me. And
so it was like this really you know, big life
altering thing where it's like I sort of, you know,
I lost her, and I was sort of I was
rejected basically in this way that was the biggest way
I've ever been rejected at that point in my life,
(27:42):
and told that I wasn't going to be good enough
to do what I thought I was going to do
from the moment I could hold a pencil basically. So
I think it's just taken me like fifteen years to
finally get to the point where I'm like, you are
really good and you are a good person and like
you should be proud of what you're doing. It was
hard for me to even say that right now, but
(28:02):
I'm getting there. But I think that I think that
really has a lot to do with it. So I
like lost this person right on the time someone told
me no, and it was just trying, you know, finding
my footing. Ever since, I guess it's a lot story
and then connected to having your own kids and then
exactly right, and so so now I have Marlow, who
(28:22):
is six, and she's actually named My mom was Mary
Lou and so we we sort of took the Y
and the the U and called her Marlow after my mom.
But she's you know, she's so proud of me, and
she loves my comics and she'll like it's really sweet,
just like yeah, she'll like read my calendars like we have.
We have a split level house, so we actually I'm
(28:44):
explained why we have a baby monitor still for almost
seven year old, but we can't hear her when we're
all the way downstairs, and so we'll be watching TV
after she's gone to bed and she'll be like mom
um in this comic and she'll ask questions about and like,
you know, she'll either tell me she likes it or
she'll asked me why, like how it was a joke
or asked me. But she's really really interested in them
(29:04):
now in a way that's really helped me sort of
like focus back on like, oh, you know, this is
this isn't going to be proud of. And now it's
actually become apparent to me that other kids are going,
you know, going to be doing that too, And it's
just put more of a fire under me because I'm like,
I want, I want now, i want more. You know,
the fact that children are are enjoying them has sort
of shifted my focus from like let me sort of
(29:27):
makes me that adults only would like to like, oh
maybe maybe maybe this is why what I'm trying to
say here. Maybe I'm trying to like create jokes that
parents and kids can enjoy. And so also maybe you're
just sitting there is so real about that. I'm experience
experiences with my five year old, which is like, not
only does he find things funny, but slash or he's
also hearing us find things funny and trying to understand
(29:51):
the mechanics of it exactly, it's exactly right, it's wild,
it's really interesting, and it's definitely yeah, she has she
has really, she's really um inspired me to do a
lot more and yeah, it's yeah, it's been. It's been
a definitely like a growing and learning process. Can you
help us for anybody who doesn't know what happens in
(30:12):
the animation world at all? What did it mean to
work on The Simpsons? You you referenced like they're being
different levels of jobs, but what like what did going
to work every day entail and feel like? Well? So, um,
my job on The Simpsons was what was called a
character layout artist, and The Simpsons has actually run pretty
(30:34):
differently from I think any like the studio. The way
that the artist produced is really different from a lot
of other studios. They always have kind of just done
things their own way. But my job, in particular was
basically an animator of key poses. And what that means
is I would and I'm gonna date myself because this
is a long time ago, but I would get an
audio cassette tape where the voice actors had recorded their voices,
(30:56):
and I would get the storyboard where a storyboard artist
had taken a script and sort of planned out each
shot and figured out, you know, okay, well, in this scene,
it starts in the living room, so here's an establishing
shot of the house, and then here's the inside of
the living room, and here's home close up of home
or walking in. So then I would take each scene
and I would listen to the audio and add basically
(31:18):
the acting. So the layout artist's job was sort of
to be an actor. So I would actually like kind
of come up with the poses. And so let's say,
if there was a scene that had you know, like
Homer is sitting on the couch and then he stands
up and says woo who and then walks out, I
would do the first pose of him sitting on the couch.
I would do what's called an antick where he's like
(31:38):
kind of about to jump up, and then I would
do a pose where his arms were up and opposed
where his arms were down. So basically it's like a
blueprint so that the in between artists, because those then
get shipped to a studio and Korea, then they will
fill in sort of the gaps um And I want
to take this moment to say that the artists that
work in the studio and Korea that do the in
between are incredible. Incredible artists are also so good. Um,
(32:02):
that was essentially it. And so it was it was
like it was a creative job in a way because
again it was at and you're working with the director.
So an animation director is sort of like helping guide you, like,
you know, here's here's my pitch for the acting. And
they might say like, well, there's a little two cartoonish,
we needed to be a bit more sitcomy and how
about you have home or do this rather than this
in a nutshell, But so it would be an example
of something that was too too oh man, Well, I
(32:25):
mean I can't think of a specific example, but I'll
say that, like part of the reason I got the job,
one of the things that helped me get the job
is I had watched the show so much and I
really understood, I really understood the subtlety of the acting.
Because you know, people might apply who are coming from
you know, Disney Feature or something and they are just
(32:46):
unbelievable animators, but they might not if they've never watched
the show. They might not understand, well, Homer isn't gonna
do like some Zaney cartoony, like goofy crazy acting. He's
gonna do more or of the acting you would see
on a TV show, like a like a like a
live action TV show. Now that was more true, you know,
(33:07):
a long time ago when I was working at this point,
I think everyone seen The Simpsons for everyone, everyone knows
what to expect sort of. But that was sort of it.
And so my first day when I started there, I
had I had actually gotten the rejection from the animation program.
And then I had, like, I actually had emailed a
friend of mine who was working at The Simpsons at
the time. He's kind of was a mentor of mine
(33:28):
with the family friend, and I told him how sad
I was, and you know I didn't just to be clear,
this is you're in undergrad Yeah, so I so I was.
I was working towards the b f A and animation
and illustration at San Jose State and I had taken
pretty much every class I could take before getting into
the program, and I had applied for the program and
(33:49):
it was a rough I mean, it was a hard year.
I might and honestly, let me say, I might not
have been ready for the program. I don't know. I
had taken a lot of time off because my mom
was sick, and so it was like my head was
in the clouds and it was just it was a
tough time and I wasn't you know, I wasn't really focused.
But after I didn't get in, I knew I wasn't
gonna be able to work on, you know, my major
for a year because I had you couldn't reply again
(34:11):
until the next year. And so that's when my friend
Brad Abelson, who was working at the Simpsons at the time,
told me, you know, if you apply for the job
and you're even like if you if you take this test,
this drawing test basically and you're even remotely good, I
will help you and I will tell you what needs
to get done and I will hand it in. But
if you're not quite there yet, I'll be honest with you.
(34:33):
And so I did it. I sent it to him.
He was like, you can't animate. We didn't say this.
I shouldn't say that. He said this. He basically he
basically like, you can draw well enough, and here are
the fixes that you need to do, and once you
do these fixes, I will hand it in for you.
They can't animate. That's me saying because I know I
couldn't animate. I'd never animated more in my life. He
didn't say that, but I knew I couldn't because illustrating
(34:53):
and animating are two really different things, because animating is
making an object move and illustrating is just drawing. And
so I could draw but couldn't animate. Well, how interesting
also that what you're eventually doing with your Yeah, it's
illustra and you know, I struggle. One of the reasons
I struggled at the Simpsons is because I'm not really
good at animating. I draw really clean and really stiff,
and uh, it's and animators don't draw that way. Animators
(35:17):
are loose and flowy drawings, and it's just not the
way I draw. Well. Also, how perfect, how perfect that
you were doing the key art, which is the you know,
the what's like photo, what's what's the word? I'm looking
for the snapshot of every moment, but not the animating
in between. Well, and there's a place for everyone. You know,
there are people there at the studio who were known for,
oh give this, give this scene to so and so,
(35:38):
because you know she's really good at at animating. And
she'll do like a really beautiful fluid drawing. She'll make this,
She'll give the itchy and scratchy stuff to so and
so because she's going to make like a really really cool,
fun animated scene. Give this scene, this heartfelt scene between
Homer and Maggie to Liz, because Liz is good at
doing really subtle, like nuanced acting. And that was That's
(36:00):
what I realized eventually that I was good at. And
it's sort of translated then into my comics because it's
that's sort of what I'm doing in my comics now,
is sort of like very subtle stuff. But everyone had
their own sort of thing that they were good at,
and they're all different kinds of artists there, and everyone
was sort of like kind of doing their thing. It's
interesting too, because back when stuff was on paper and
it would get handed off to different people, I could
see after being there a long enough time, I could
(36:21):
see a drawing and know exactly who did it in
the studio. But I just so used to seeing everyone's stuff. Um,
that may completely made me lose my train of thought
of where I was going to Actually that you, I mean,
this is a conversation. That's the sort of. It also
brings us back to that initial cartoon that we were
(36:42):
talking about with the snake and the help, because there
is something about the subtlety of your of these moments
that you captured that is about what's sort of hidden
underneath rather than like what's being performed. Yeah, I try
really hard to not hit you over the head with
whatever I'm trying to say. And I guess that is
sort of lends itself to if I'm trying to appeal
(37:05):
to as many people as possible, then it has to
be sort of broad and it can't be too like specific,
So I I sort of try to like, I don't know,
open up. I guess the idea a bit. But but
what's broad? I mean, it's interesting because we're we're what's
broad is the universal human experience. But what's But it's
funny because the universal human experiences we're talking about are
those moments when we're actually not being broad. You know,
(37:28):
we're not telegraphing I have a huge emotion right now,
but rather covering, which is what so much of human
interactions is. You know, that's a really good Oh, I
have something really weird and little going on here. When
it's really like h you know, yeah, I know that's
a that's a really really good point, and that's true.
I guess one other question, because it feels like it's
(37:49):
relevant for this podcast, is, um, I don't know anything
about the animation world in terms of UM, gender parody.
Was there any thing that felt like there was sort
of approving yourself element to your experience that wasn't just
because you were new to it? Yes, there was, UM.
I think a lot of it has gotten better since
(38:11):
I left the studio, but absolutely when I yeah back,
actually yeah, you know, I was twenty two when I started.
I was twenty three. Sorry. When I started there, Britney
Spears was the top of the charts. Low Rise jeans
were you know, what was hot and half like I was.
I was twenty three and dressing like like a twenty
(38:32):
three year old woman and you know, walked into that
place and I won't say everyone, but a lot of people,
you know, started spreading rumors about how I got the
job and why I was there, and um that, you know,
coupled with the fact that I was already feeling like
I didn't belong because I, you know, had just gotten
rejected from this animation program. I had to prove to
myself and everybody else that I belonged there. It was
(38:54):
much harder to prove to myself. Not to excuse the behavior,
but it was a boys club and it had been
for a long time. There weren't a lot of women there,
and the women who were who were working there, you know,
they all kind of gave me a heads up and
told me how it was and like this is you know,
this is the way it is, and UM, I will
say since then that a lot of that is has disappeared.
I think when I started, it was me and another girl.
We're sharing a cubicle. I think there was maybe one
(39:16):
other two other female director or a d S and
then a couple other women in studio, but it was
mostly men and UM. Not everyone was like this, but
a lot of them. We were saying that I was
there because um not because of my work. So that
was I had to I had to get over that,
and I worked really hard. I mean I worked. I
would have worked hard anyway I had. There was an
assistant director who worked there who passed away. His name
(39:38):
was James O'Brien. He was the first assistant director I
worked with UM and I give him so much credit
for he basically told and this is aside from gender
and and who I was and what I looked like
and all of that, he basically said, you know, you're new,
and um, you're you're I'm not saying you're not good
enough to be here, but you need to prove that
you belong here because a lot of people want this job,
and so you're gonna have to work really hard and
(39:58):
people are gonna have to see you were really hard.
And so I did, and um, and he was right.
And so that was aside from the rumors and aside
from everything else. But I kind of took that as like,
you know, all right, you think that I don't belong here,
and this is why I'm here. I'm going to prove
you wrong. I'm gonna show you why I am here.
And I did. So that's great too, because you know,
getting feedback like that can also be paralyzing. I mean,
(40:18):
it can either make you rise to the occasion or
it can you feel like, how do I how do
I be an artist in the environment. And I was
already very vulnerable at that time, so so yeah, it
was it was tough, but you know, I figured it out, so,
and I guess the final question then that that leads
to is how did you start the Tumbler And what
(40:40):
is your relationship between sort of working for somebody versus
working for yourself? So the tumbling creatively speaking, you know, yeah,
so the Tumbler was actually an effort of sort of
an exercise in accountability because I was doing, you know,
more and more of my own stuff sort of just
with friends, like we were playing. It actually started with
because I hadn't really drawn my own stuff for a
(41:03):
few years after having started on The Simpsons, because I
was so focused on just drawing the Simpsons. But then
I ended up playing a Dungeons and Dragons game with
like a group of friends, and so I would because
I'm really cool, and so I obviously I would end
up like illustrating each night like I would do. I
would draw like what was happening and um create little
(41:24):
like funny vignettes of like different scenes. And so my
husband Colin, who was my boyfriend at the time, you know,
he he sort of encouraged me, like because he he
has seen my sort of imposter syndrome and action He's like,
you know, you're good, you should you should post, put out,
do do more drawings, and then put out what you're
doing and just let other people see it. Well. Interestingly, also,
(41:45):
he's a man in animation. Yes, so it's almost like
he was sort of lending you his confidence and that's
absolutely right. Yeah, And he and he and I actually
started very similarly where he we were both really young.
We both hadn't gone to he was younger than me.
I think he was like I think he was like
nine when he started on The Simpsons and he hadn't
gone to college. And so but you're right, it was
sort of like I am, I'm I'm saying you should
(42:08):
do this, and I'm giving you the confident you know,
and and and I trust him and and and his judgment,
and I needed I needed a little a little push
and then I just started for myself at that time,
and uh, I'm grateful and I'm now I'm just pushing
myself all along the way. So well, and also to
tie it in with what you said about your mom,
like that, it seems like the journey was to become
(42:29):
your own cheerleader. Definitely, And yeah, I've definitely, um, I've
definitely gotten better at that. That's real for all of us. Yeah,
that's real. Real. Um, okay, we're gonna take a quick
break and find out who you brought in for us. Okay,
(42:51):
so we're back, Um, Liz tell us who you brought up? Oh,
I brought in Lizzo. I actually have a cardboard cut
out of her behind me. I should I should just
like take it down and bring it and hold it
up so you can see her. Did you go to
did you go to her concert when she was an
ls I did? I had a feeling, Yeah, I definitely did.
(43:13):
I'm a big I'm a big Lisso fan. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean who is everyone? I mean, you know, everyone
loves her. She's she's wonderful, but um, she's probably like
I don't remember ever being so like excited to see
someone in live and live and see someone live in
concert because she's just she's just she's great. She's a
(43:35):
great singer, she's beautiful, she's a force. She's amazing to watch, Like,
I don't know, it was just it was such a great,
a great feeling. I remember going to that concert and
I think it was like in October. Let's take a
moment for being in the same room with other humans.
I know, it's so it seems so far. It's funny
because it's like, if that seems so far away, I'm
trying to like search my brain for that memory. But
(43:55):
it was such a great I mean just looking around
the audience and seen so many different looking people. Everyone
looked so comfortable and so happy, and the room just
felt and looked like love in a way that I
don't think I'd ever seen or felt before. And it
was just such a great feeling and honest, like, to
be honest, I'm struggling to sort of describe it now
(44:18):
because it seems so far away now because it just,
you know, it's such as we're in such a difficult
time right now. But that was it's such a great
memory of just like everyone in one place just embodying
this beauty and this this spirit. That was just so
I don't know, it was very it was very moving.
Um let's take a quick Leston thank you for that.
(44:41):
You know, you grow up, you go to school for
a little bit, and they teach you about one America
and then you learn that there's another America. And I've
been um heartbroken by it for most of my life.
This is a outright slow genocide so it's eighteen sixties.
(45:01):
We're seeing the activism that happens is incredible to me.
Seeing white allies, privileged allies is even more incredible. That
is the only way the system breaks. I pulled up
from her I G t V because, um, you know,
one of the things that is so meaningful about how
she communicates is that it just feels very raw and
(45:23):
very I mean, you know, the world authentic comes to mind.
She's not wearing any makeup, she's holding the camera really
close to her. She's not she's not following any of
you know, the sort of Hollywood guidelines on how to
feminize yourself, how to look beautiful, because it's just not
about that, and because obviously, as we well know, she's
(45:44):
on you know, a self love crusade, and that would
feel really inauthentic, I think. But you know, along with
the message, the end result when we're watching is such
a deep sense of candor. Absolutely, I really and I
you know, she really, she's she's very It's tough with
(46:05):
social media because you know, like especially for someone like
me who's I'm so private, and just to to see
her sort of speak openly, and also you know, like
about mental health and like how she's feeling, and like
just being open with with her audience, knowing full well
that not everyone is going to respond to her, you know, nicely,
because that's just the Internet, you know, that's just the
way it goes. I really appreciate that, and I think
(46:28):
it's helping so many people. I think it's helping so
many people to see this clearly just beautiful woman who
you know, doesn't maybe necessarily look like what we were told,
you know, to strive to look like for so much
what their duty industry would like us to believe. No exactly,
and and it's such a it's such a charade, like
(46:50):
none of that makes it. It It doesn't even matter. Like
I remember showing my daughter, you know, like everyone else,
I really loves her music, and she asked me once, um,
She's like, can I see a picture of her? I've
never seen her? And I was like, oh sure, And
I showed her a picture of her and she was like,
I don't remember what picture was, but she's just like
it's a full body picture. She's wearing like a red dress,
and it's just she looks, you know, gorgeous. And my
daughter was like, Mommy, she's a most beautiful woman I've
(47:10):
ever seen in my life. And I was like, yes,
she is. I agree, she's a beautiful woman. And it's
just it's just nice that, like, I'm so thrilled that,
you know, my daughter has someone like that to look
up to as far as like physical beauty, inner beauty, talent, ambition,
Like it's just a she's just a very very powerful woman.
(47:30):
I want to pull out two things also from what
you just said that I think is helpful for everybody
to think about two in terms of their own you know,
Lizza with him oh god, um. One, the gamble of
being vulnerable and having haters, but being vulnerable anyway, and
trusting that the gamble part of it is trusting that
that well, you'll connect with more people by being real
(47:52):
rather than fewer. And the other part of it is
in this time when we feel really leaderless, she is
one of the leaders of our time. And what it
is to look into a lens and say something that's
true with no frills and provide a space for people to,
you know, like sit with that truth, to feel the
(48:13):
celebration of it and to feel the horror of it,
and to feel you know that there's work to be
done is a style of leadership that is not what
we were talking about in school. Yeah, that's really true.
That's a really good point, and we really need we
need as many people like that right now as possible,
you know. And to die back to you, my my
stunning guest. Um, you know you've talked about a number
(48:36):
of times you've mentioned your privateness and how you're not
using social media in that way, you know, and how
much you're you're sharing of your heart through your art,
like thinking about yourself as a leader in that long
you know, I mean obviously leader with a lower kids
l right, I'm I'm just on this kick for all
of us to think about the ways in our life
that we can lead. Not that there's anything wrong with
(48:57):
following great leaders too. I'm not saying that that the
is like a one size fits all. If we think
of ourselves as a leader, we're we're never followers. I
don't mean that at all, But I mean, you know,
if we can define leadership broadly enough that what we're
saying is that we will stand up for ourselves and
we will stand up for people. Yeah, I think it's
such a better way to think about And then there's
like fewer steps for us to go from that that
(49:19):
sort of mind shift, mind shift, whatever paradigm shift in
our mind into oh, now I actually will take the
mic when somebody asks me to say something that matters. Yeah,
I think you know, people want to be seen and
people want to be heard, and if people aren't being
seen and people aren't being heard, people get frustrated, and
rightfully so, and so anything we can do to sort
(49:41):
of like make people feel like they're being acknowledged and
their pain is being acknowledged and what they're feeling is
real is a small step in the right direction as
a I mean, yeah, yeah, but that's something that we
can do that isn't That is another way of defining
leadership to for sure, for sure. And also, you know,
a sort of stereotypically more femin democratized version all right leadership,
(50:02):
right because there is a sort of hierarchical sense of
like follow me, I'm it's best versus this sort of
like consensus building um sense of I see you and
your contribution. Let's you know, let's let's celebrate everybody's contributions
and then and then some truth will emerge out of
that some play yeah and Let's not just bury what
you might feel sad or angry or frustrated about. Let's
(50:25):
not just like push that aside. That is Yeah, let's
see what's maake, what shape the scene exactly? Liz, thank
you so much for joining me. Thank you so much,
especially as a private person. I appreciate you opening up
too well. Thank you. Yes, as a pleasure to be here.
(50:46):
Thank you to Liz for talking to us today. You
can find out more about her in the show notes
or on our website Permission to Speak pot dot com.
Every Thursday now, I am doing an I G Live
at eleven a M plus ethic at Permission to Speak
pod on Instagram. So check out my stories and continue
to send me d M S voice memos messages at
(51:09):
the Instagram at the website. We'll do a mail bag
episode coming up, and I would love to know what's
going on with your voice, what's speaking up feels like?
How you need help, where you're stuck. Thanks to Sophie
Lifterman and the team at I Heeart Radio, my family
and cohort and all of you, we are recording this
podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on Land that
(51:31):
is the historic gathering place for the Tonga indigenous tribe,
and you can visit U s d a c dot
us to learn more about honoring native land. Permission to
Speak is a production of My Heart Radio and Double
Vision Executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark Canton.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, listen on the
I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
(51:53):
your favorite shows.
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