How to Rise with Former Rep. Katie Hill

Samara chats with the California congresswoman who resigned in November—about how to actually run for office, the politics of politics on Capitol Hill, and what it was like to weather a very public shaming—and how to write and deliver a speech in the midst of it. With lots of swearing and free-flowing rosé, this is a bit of a departure from the rest of Katie’s press tour for her new book, She Will Rise: Becoming a Warrior in the Battle for True Equality, but permission to speak, amirite??

 

Host: Samara Bay

Executive producers: Catherine Burt Cantin & Mark Cantin, Double Vision doublevisionprojects.com

Producers: Samara Bay, Sophie Lichterman and the iHeart team

Theme music: Mark Cantin

Samara on IG: @samarabay

Cat on IG: @catburt & @doublevisionprojects

 

Katie on Twitter: @katiehill4CA

 

Katie’s book: indiebound.org/book/9781538737002

 

AOC quote: twitter.com/AOC/status/1133383123503321090

 

Kamala & Sarah Cooper **MUST WATCH**: youtube.com/watch?v=QfU7O2ghg3k

 

Email us at [e-mail] – where do you need more permission?

 

And of course, SUBSCRIBE!! And please pass this along to anyone who could use it. Leave us a review and rate us on Apple Podcasts or the iHeartRadio app, too. We’re grateful for your support.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's quote is from Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. It's an old tweet,
but it's a goody. She says. The reason women are
critiqued for being too loud or too meek, too big
or too small, too smart to be attractive, or too
attractive to be smart is to be little women out
of standing up publicly. The goal is to critique into submission,

(00:23):
and that applies to anyone challenging power. Welcome to permission
to speak. The podcast about how we talk and how
we get ourselves heard with me samar By. Today's guest

(00:47):
is Katie Hill. She was a congresswoman. She won her
campaign for US Congress along with AOC and the blue
wave of women and outsiders in the mid terms, and
was seen as a star of the new class. She
was thirty one years old. She had flipped a forever
read district just north of l A. She had run

(01:08):
the most millennial campaign ever, according to Vice, and was
a true inspiration for progressives, for the queer community, for
women everywhere. But then nude photos were leaked and allegations
were made, and she was called both a victim and
a predator, and rather than stay in fight, she surprised everyone,
including Speaker Pelosi, and decided to resign last November, less

(01:31):
than a year after she was sworn in. I wanted
to have Katie on. First of all, because um, I
followed her campaign in its early days. There's some amazing
activist organizations in l A that did fundraising and canvassing
for her and asked her tough questions. Shout out to
momitivist and FIA and hang out to good hi guys, UM.
But also I wanted to have her on because you know,

(01:55):
she had the sort of public experience so that I
think we all year losing total control of the narrative
sexist double standards. She contemplated suicide, and she ultimately went
out with the biggest of bangs, delivering a resignation speech
on the floor of Congress in which she said, quote, yes,

(02:15):
I'm stepping down, but I refused to let this experience
scare off other women who dared to take risks, who
dared to step into this light, who dared to be powerful.
It might feel like they won in the short term,
but they can't in the long term. We cannot let them.
You guys, we swear a lot in this conversation we
talk about a lot of the real shit, from how

(02:37):
she decided that she could actually run to be a
congress person with no prior political experience in the first place,
to how she prepared that fateful speech and what happened after,
including her new book and her political action committee that
she started to fulfill the promise of that speech. And um,
she may or may not have had two glasses of

(02:58):
rose while we talked, which was honestly so perfect, and
we are now rethinking the whole show to record during
happy hour. Moving forward. Um, guys, this is Katie help.

(03:18):
I actually want to start by just going back back
to what made you decide you wanted to run? Sure
if you had kind of like an aha moment, Oh absolutely,
I mean the aha moment was well, start back at
the beginning. So I was never planning on running for
office in the first place. I thought maybe i'd do
something in politics. At one point, I thought I wanted

(03:40):
to be a speechwriter. Um, but I wasn't. That's interesting. Well,
probably just did that at one point because I was
an English major and he's like, you, you could write
speeches for politicians, and um, and I thought that would
be cool, But I yeah, that wasn't really something you're like,
what if the politician in question is me? But like

(04:01):
that just wasn't really on the radar, you know what
I mean. It just wasn't really something that occurred to
me until um, until much later. So I was. But
I just mean like having the speech writing you know, ability,
or having having that as a as a concept, you know,
a lot of obviously a lot of politicians sort of
need help with like how to put a speech together.
And I'm sure that you know a lot of people

(04:21):
don't know this, but the last speech that I gave
I wrote completely on my own. I didn't have anybody
else help with it. I didn't feel like I could,
so needless to say, I'm going to ask you a
bunch of questions about how you prepped for that. But yeah,
when I started, I was basically I was the executive
director of this huge nonprofit called PATH People Assisting Homeless.
It was the largest homeless services organization in California. It's

(04:44):
gotten even bigger since I left, and I'm really proud
of the work they do. But um, when you know, so,
things were going really well on what we were doing.
We had advocated for these ballot measures at the local
level UM in the city and County of Los Angeles
that would have a huge impact on peop and we
were successful. But at the same time that those passed,
Trump won, and I, like women across the country, was

(05:08):
absolutely horrified, and specifically for the work that we were
doing with the nonprofit that I was with. We knew
that having a Republican House and Senate and having Donald
Trump as president meant that everything we did was in
jeopardy and the people we served, the most vulnerable people
in our communities, were at serious risk for literally their
lives um because of you know, how social programs would

(05:30):
be cut and how healthcare they were. You know, the
first thing on their agenda was to try and get
rid of the Affordable Care Act, which is which had
literally saved people from dying on the streets. And I said, okay,
I need to do something. So, you know, obviously, clothing
the House was our next electoral opportunity, and I thought, okay,
I'll get involved in that somehow. So I literally go

(05:51):
to Swing Left UM the website and I type in
my zip code and much to my surprise, the nearest
Swing district was the was the one that I'd spent
my entire life in where I still lived and where
I had grown up, and you know, having grown up there,
I thought it was going to forever be a Republican stronghold.
It was, um. You know, it's got Santa Clarita and

(06:13):
Semi Valley and the Antelope Valley and these are places,
you know, southern California that have long histories of being
staunchly Republican and and you know, often very racist. And yeah,
it's got a storied past. But so when I saw that,
I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. There's
actually a chance to flip my own district. And so

(06:34):
I was like, I'm gonna get involved in a campaign.
But sure enough, this is this isn't about late January
early February of at and um, and then I looked
at who was running and and no one had officially
announced yet. But the person who was the most likely
too was the guy who had run the last time
and had lost, even though he lost by six, even

(06:57):
though Hillary Clinton had won by seven. So I, uh, well, A,
I want to support a woman if I can, and
be I don't think this guy can win. He wasn't
from our district. And I thought he had a lot
of other issues as a candidate. So I'm complaining about this,
right And I'm saying I want a woman, who are
you complaining to a number of different friends and mentors

(07:18):
and in mainly in the in my workspace and um.
And so finally one of them said to me, She's like, Kay,
you're complaining an awful lot about this. Why don't you run?
And I'm like but and so then I thought, you know,
And so I thought about it overnight, and then the
next morning in the shower, I was, you know, contemplating this.

(07:42):
And it was in the shower that I was like,
fuck it. If if Donald Trump can become president of
the United States, why can't I run for Congress? You
know what I mean. Like it was kind of one
of those moments you're like, I've been successful. I've done
all these things. I matched this profile of a person
that should be electable in my district, that grew up there,
that's the daughter of a police officer and a nurse

(08:03):
and put themselves through school and da da da da,
and and so I remember getting out of the shower
and thinking this is totally crazy, but I'm gonna see
I'm gonna see about this. So I texted her, the
woman who had suggested it to me, and she was
she worked for an an Elle County supervisor and had
been involved in politics and advocacy for a lot longer
than I had. And so I'm like, so, what if

(08:24):
I actually do this? Like where would I even start?
And um, So we got together for coffee and I
followed a few other different random connections and very quickly, uh,
it came to fruition. And um, then my life changed
in a pretty big way. So you know, there's so
many statistics and you've referenced them recently about you know,

(08:46):
women holding themselves back, that that that we worry about
our age, we worry better experience, we were better credentials.
Like how did you talk to yourself about that specifically,
because obviously you're on the young end. Yeah, well, honestly,
I mean that was out. Was the big thing is
that I'd always I've always been the young person, right,
I always just in my career, I had advanced early,
and so, um, I had to get comfortable with being

(09:09):
the young person in the room and having more authority
in power than you know, as usual for somebody my age.
And having to be taken seriously when most people that
you're negotiating with or are trying to bring along to
your side or whatever, even supervising or sometimes decades older
than you. So I had probably more confidence around that
than than many would, just because I had to grapple

(09:31):
with it earlier. But I swear the biggest thing was
that that I saw what is supposed to be a
politician does not matter anymore. The rules around all of
that have been shattered if this guy can become president,
not in a good way, not in the way that
we want them to be shattered, but they are. And

(09:53):
so I thought, um, you know that there is no
reason that I should be held back or that anyone
else should be held back if they're running for the
right reasons, when this guy who was running totally for
the wrong reasons managed to get elected. So you know,
because I guess it was that kind of rationalization that

(10:15):
was like the big push for me. Yeah, But I mean,
and also there's just you know, that's that's relevant for
all of us who are thinking about stepping into any
type of leadership position, is like, you know, if we
want to see better leaders, maybe it's us, And maybe
the experience that we've had in the rooms we've had
just trying to be taken seriously is actually, you know,
in the case in your case, that is actually what

(10:36):
leadership experience or politics, you know, political experience is. It's
not having run for office before, it's having had to
work to you know, have authority in a room. Yeah.
And and also I think that people who have worked
on the front lines of any you know, social issue
have this lived experience and just this practical experience of
how the laws and and the the ways that people

(10:59):
govern actually impact um, you know, day to day lives
and and for me specifically the most vulnerable people in
our communities and um And So when I have young
people frequently asked me, you know, if I want to
get into politics, if I'm thinking I want to be
a politician later, what do you recommend I do with
these are college and high school students. I'm like, the
best thing that I can recommend is to work in

(11:20):
a nonprofit, work in in the whatever you're passionate about.
It could be the environment, it could be women's issues,
it could be you know, whatever kind of social services.
But do the hands on work and and make sure
that you're doing it for the right reason, and that
will prepare you for whatever you want to do in politics.
And um, I just think that that's so much more
applicable than going to law school and doing some constitutional stuff.

(11:43):
So and getting further and further away from you know
that you're going to be representing, literally, but such good advice.
It's such it's so like, it's so practical. I wonder
also if you could tell us, because you are the
first congress person I have had on this show. Oh nice,
thank you for that, right, a little bit about what
the actual experience was like when you were working there.

(12:04):
I want to know us specifically in terms of, you know,
the group of you guys who came in and like
what kind of conversations you had quietly as you were
sort of trying to understand what the power dynamics were. Yeah,
so that was a that was fascinating and that was
so exciting. And um, you know, so we got elected
on November what was it November? I can't even remember

(12:24):
the days anymore totally, even more now than before. But
we got the day after we got elected, those of
us who knew that we we'd won the next day, Um,
we got an invitation and we've even gotten this before
of if you win, hold these dates because you're immediately
going to go to orientation. And it was the following week,

(12:45):
so it was the election was on a Tuesday. You
needed to be in Washington by the following monday for
starting your orientation. So UM, basically that was that was
when it begins, and you you go and you meet
all these other people had who had won and who
and so many of us were you know, we weren't
politicians at all, right, this was our first run for
any kind of office, and so we were we had

(13:07):
no idea what we were doing, but we felt like
we were in a we were very much in there
with a mandate to um to kind of shake things
up and to do things differently and too fucking save
the country from this monster. And um. So there was
that excitement and that energy, and we had all these
women who had won, and many of the women knew
each other from the campaign trail because Emily's List had

(13:30):
supported us, and so I got to know a bunch
of the women before even the primaries were over. And
then that continued and then those of us on that
were called red to Blue, those of us who were
in the highly competitive Republican seats. UM were we also,
you know, we're around each other all the time during
the campaigns, so you know, it wasn't all unknown. But

(13:50):
then there was this kind of mixing of everybody who
had come from these blue districts, these solid blue districts,
and you know, there were sixty of us, and you
go into this orientation and you're just completely bombarded by
so much information. One of the pieces of information is
that you have to basically elect these leaders for all

(14:11):
kinds of different positions before we ever are even sworn in.
And so we were getting sworn in on January three,
and UM, so this is this is the middle of November.
At this point, we found out that there was going
to be a freshman representative to leadership, which was it
was a relatively new position, but it was one that
UM the Speaker designated for the freshman class to have

(14:33):
UM to have a voice at the table. And that's
you know, that's a big deal, especially since we were
coming in there. I think many of us thinking we
were going to have to have basically a big old
fight with the establishment to even have our voices heard.
So we thought great, that's exciting. But we also said
there are sixty freshmen, which is a quarter of the

(14:54):
more than a quarter of the of the Democratic caucus,
and so I mean, that's a big number. So a
couple of us made the argument that if we're a
quarter of the Democratic Caucus, we should have more than
one seat at the table. So we made the case
that it should be too, and Janah Goose from Colorado
and I, um, we basically said we'll run together. And

(15:15):
it was it was, you know, it was pretty like
pretty good political maneuvering for very early on. And um,
like it was you know, that was that was a
lot of fun. But also we I wanted to be
at that table if I was going to have the opportunity,
I wanted to be in the room with Nancy Pelosi
and everything like that. And so got we got to

(15:36):
and um and but then it was then the responsibility
that you have is becomes huge. It becomes you are
the liaison between leadership and the freshman class. You were
the one who is supposed to take whatever the freshman
classes feeling and saying and want wants to prioritize and
reflect that in these leadership meetings and Um, it was.

(15:57):
I mean, you were literally representing two different bodies. But
yeah and um yeah, your constituents and the class, and
that's not they didn't always align exactly right. You had
to kind of balance that, um, And I often also
had to say, you know, this is the overwhelming view
of people in the freshman class, but like it's not
necessarily mine. So I had to kind of balance that.

(16:21):
But I learned so much by being in that position,
just in terms of how the deals are made. What uh,
you know, the history of these people who have been
in Congress for so long, and you know the speaker
Nancy Pelosi especially, just just in awe of how she
did things. And this is the beginning of a new

(16:41):
Congress where Trump is finally going to be UM held
back a little bit because the Republicans obviously for two
years it left him completely unchecked. So it was it
was really an incredible time, and I'm very lucky and
glad that I was there. I am too, thank you. Okay,
so you're resignation speech, I want to talk about, like

(17:03):
practically speaking, I mean, you referenced having written it yourself,
you said more than you needed to, you know, you
said very boldly I'm leaving. But we have men who
have been credibly accused of intentional acts of sexual violence
and remain in boardrooms, on the Supreme Court, in this
very body, and worst of all, in the Oval office.
I want to know, like how you prep for that, especially,

(17:24):
I mean obviously during such a like insanely heightened emotional time,
But what was your thought process about what you wanted
to say? So I had um and I wrote about
this in the book, but literally the day after I well,
I decided to resign, was in this dark depth of

(17:45):
depression and then, UM, you know, contemplated very seriously contemplated suicide.
And when I decided not to, when I when I
got out of that space. Um, the next day was
when I when I woke up and decided I needed
to write this speech because and when I was going
to give it and everything like that, and I knew
I wanted to give it. I wanted to make sure
that I that I actually gave a speech. I didn't

(18:07):
need to give a speech, right that was, but I
wanted to and um, and so I got up and
I just started I just started on it, and a
lot of it just came out right. It was just.
But but I knew a number of the points that
were really important to me. UM, one of which was
that I was you know, I wanted to reflect that

(18:27):
I was sorry, that I was sorry for everything that
was sorry for. I was sorry for what I've done.
I was sorry for stepping down. I was sorry for
letting people you know, uh, letting people down, and and
my responsibility for it. But I also wanted to point
out that this is you know, the expectations that we
have for women and the and I think the pressure

(18:48):
that I felt, even from myself to resign is very
different from from those that you know, we have towards men.
And that's an example, if I had by Donald Trump,
who has been accused by over twenty five women of
sexual misconduct, and you know that that probably runs a

(19:08):
lot deeper than we even know. So UM, I felt
like it was important to kind of to reflect on
that and to and to say, you know, I'm stepping
back now for a number of reasons, including that I
did not want to be a distraction. I didn't want
to be used as a tool. I didn't want to
be weaponized against my colleagues or or a distraction, just

(19:28):
as the impeachment hearings exactly. But I also I wanted
people to know that I that I recognized where there's
an injustice right and that I that I'm going to
find a way to to continue to fight that. And
my role is different, but I don't want I wanted
people to know that there them having worked on my

(19:50):
campaign or UM supported me in whatever way, that I
that I was going to make sure that it was
still worth something. It wasn't in vain. Yeah, I know.
And I mean we're going to take a quick break
in a second, and then we're going to talk about,
you know, exactly what you have done. But before we do,
I want to just I want to linger here for like,
you know, this is on on some sort of sort

(20:11):
of fundamental level. This podcast is about public speaking and
our sense of power when we stand up to talk,
and I wish I would I would love you to
talk about like what the physical feeling was of like
making yourself walk out there, what it felt like to actually,
you know, give that speech. And also if you've listened
back and if you have any kind of things that
come up, you know, yeah, yeah, actually I have not

(20:33):
listened back to it, and it's in full. I've seen
the snippets that people sometimes replay before I, um, you know,
before I come onto a show, or that I've I've
just caught parts of, but um, I have not sat
and listened to the entire thing. And honestly, I think
that that would be really hard to do. Um, But
I mean, I also work in Hollywood, and like actors

(20:54):
don't like to look back at themselves either, totally. Yeah,
I want to know about like what was going through head.
I can't remember how you decided to take a breath
when you did, you know, like what it was to
actually step out there, because the version that you delivered
was really even Yeah, you know what I mean. And
I don't think that was an accident. I really did

(21:14):
feel like I had to completely steal myself for it.
And I've described it this way before, but you know,
I put on that I'd never worn that red dress before,
my mom had bought it for me, and um, I
was waiting for the right occasion to wear it, and
like that was the not caasion that it was intended.
But yeah, but but it was meaningful to me. It

(21:36):
was defiant. It was in a way that I felt
I felt like I identified a lot with Hester Prynne
in the Scarlet Letter, and I felt like it was
my own kind of version of that. Um. But it
was also I'm not hiding away. I'm not want to
wear a demure or neutral color. I'm gonna I'm gonna
be bold on my way out and um. And so
I put that on it if it felt like my

(21:57):
battle uniform, and and the red lipstick on, I put
the makeup on. I did the whole thing. I went
through the routine of you know, what you do every
day as a woman getting ready for something, but I
made it it felt very intentional, like those those steps
of getting ready felt or were very intentional. And and
that whole time, I'm like psyching myself up for whatever
this mission is. And for me, I knew that my

(22:20):
performance in that moment was um. You know, it was
the last thing I was going to do in Congress.
It was the last thing I was going to do
as a sitting member of Congress, and it needed to
show who I was and what this meant going forward,
and what this meant to so many people in different capacities,
right the ones, you know, the people who had looked
up to me, the people who had worked on it,

(22:40):
my family and my staff, and I felt like I
had a great deal of responsibility to to do it right.
So I got picked up by one of my staff
members and like literally and picked up in a car
to go there. So that was the first time I
had seen him in a while. And and his name's Paul.
He was just he's just phenomenal and um, anyway, he

(23:03):
gave me some like I don't know. There was something
about that car, right, and it's like a seven minute
car ride from where I was living to Capitol Hill
that felt calming that he was like, well, you're ready,
and I'm like, I guess so, and um, and was
just it was just something about that, you know, being there,
and like both of us kind of we knew we

(23:23):
were gonna have to have this walk into Capitol Hill
where all the cameras were going to be and all
the all the photographers and and sure enough, they've used
that photo of me walking into Capitol Hill with Paul
in the background like a million different places. And I
didn't want to show any kind of weakness in that moment.
And so when I went to give the speech, you know,

(23:44):
I had the same thing in mind so I walked up,
I took a deep breath and delivered it. I knew
that I had to speak more slowly than UM than
you normally do. I didn't want to my voice to crack,
and it felt like a you know, that was my moment, right, like,
that was the moment that I had to I just
had to get right. What do you think would have
happened if you had shown more weakness? I feel like

(24:07):
we all struggle with like what, you know, what is
this version of tough that we need to show the world.
I mean, I think you're probably right in that moment,
but you know, also for you, yeah, well I think
that was part of it, right, is that I had
I felt like I had shown so much weakness on
my own separately, right like I and not even not

(24:29):
even at like fault for that, but just that I
kind of exhausted my emotions. I had gone as far
as I could with them and UM, and at that
point it was it was like a it was like
a mission, it was a it was a duty. It
was this. It was the point of it, and the

(24:49):
point of the speech was to show that in spite
of everything I was, I felt strong and I was
going to continue to do work, even though it wasn't
in the way that I intended to. So I don't
I think that showing vulnerability, showing you know, emotions in
all kinds of different situations, is appropriate and encouraged. And
there have been plenty of times where i've you know,
I think even the when you talked about seeing me

(25:11):
at that first event after I think I cried while
I was talking there. Um, So I don't have an
issue with that, but it was the most important thing
for me at that moment, was was defiance, And because
of that, that's why I wanted to you know, I
didn't want to. I didn't want to show anything else.
And truthfully, I felt that at the time, right, Like
I I felt like I had internalized that well. And

(25:33):
it also strikes me. I mean you you had been
put in a vulnerable position, so it didn't probably feel
like allow me to show you more vulnerability, right right? Yeah, Yeah,
that's a good one. Okay, We're gonna take a quick
break and then come back and talk about your book
and your back. We're back. I want to talk about

(25:58):
She Will Rise and your hack Her Time. You've said
that your inspiration came from asking yourself, how can I
fight for the issues I believe in and actually change policy,
and more importantly, how can I change the power dynamics
and change the face of power. I mean, this podcast
is all about changing the sound of power. So, like, obviously,
you know resonate on your team, and I know you

(26:20):
had reelection money when you resign, and so this was
like a sort of an obvious progression, or maybe it
wasn't obvious, But can you talk about what the thought
process was and why this pack is different than other
groups that help encourage women to run. Yeah. So, so
members of Congress who resign or who lose or um
for one reason or another are no longer running for

(26:43):
reelection um. They have two different choices. One is that
they can just leave the money there, and many do
because if you ever run for federal office, no matter
how long it's been, you can basically reactivate it and
use it for your next run. So I had I
had people and you know, at this point you're talking
to campaign lawyers and uh to just kind of try

(27:03):
and figure out everything because it's like a total change
and everything. Um it just kind of the emotional level.
So so they were kind of explaining this stuff to me.
And but I but I knew that I didn't want
to do that. I felt like it was disingenuous, um
to the people who I just felt like I needed
to do something meaningful with with that money, for all

(27:26):
the people who had supported me. And you had like
a million dollars, Yeah, it was a lot. And um.
You know, I've been one of the most successful fundraisers
before I was elected and then after for my re election,
I was, you know, of of all of us. Why
do you think that is, Katie. That's a good question.
I don't really know, I think and I've told people

(27:47):
this before when when I've given women advice on fundraising,
I say that you can't feel like you're asking for
the money for yourself. You have to feel like you're
asking for it for a greater cause. And and you
are you you know, you're not running for office for yourself.
You're running for your office to do something with it.
I mean, actually, this is probably a second half of
the answer about being a nonprofit Parson. Yeah, exactly, So

(28:07):
that that was exactly what some things I've said, is
that you working in the nonprofit sector, you also get
very comfortable asking for money and um. And you know,
women are naturally we're naturally not as good a fundraisers
as men because of we're trained not to do that.
We're trained that it's rude, We're trained that, you know,
we're trained to be kind of uncomfortable talking about things.
We don't want to ask for stuff for ourselves. Money

(28:28):
is literally been talking about money exactly and um. And
so when you're in the nonprofit side, and I worked
in development and fundraising for a long time, so so
for me, it was very easy, like I'm not running
for office because this is fun or enjoyable or easy.
I'm running for office because I felt like I needed
to do something. And uh. And so you know, when
I'm asking for money, it's not to line my pockets.

(28:49):
It's to go to this thing, right. And it was
the same exact way when I was doing it for
the nonprofit sector. You know, I'm asking for it because
we're working on this really important mission. So that's what
I tell people is that you know, you don't And
that was also still something nonetheless that I had to
I had to practice and learn and get better at
um as a candidate because it's still felt different at

(29:11):
first because you did feel like you were asking for
it for yourself, and especially when you have to start
with your personal circle, because you don't have anyone else
to ask, like, yeah, I'm asking my my freaking high
school friends for fifty dollars. That's that's the hardest time
to to start raising that initial money, which is also
part of the reason that I started her time. Because
the initial point to get to you know, viability, or

(29:35):
to be taken seriously as a candidate, or to um,
you know, to to really be somebody who's seen as competitive,
you have to raise some initial money. And if you're
a new candidate, if you're a first time candidate, if
you're not coming from a political background, if you're not
coming from money, that is really hard. I've been there.
I know how hard that is. So what I had
asked you is how how your pack is different. And

(29:56):
I know you've talked about going after candidates who's who
might be the or risks, but like they're better better
fit for their own district. Yeah. Yeah, So that was
the other pieces that many organizations do see packs, etcetera.
I won't get involved in primaries. They even the women's
organizations a lot of times don't want to get involved
in primary if it's a woman on woman race, or

(30:18):
they don't want to get involved if the person doesn't
if it doesn't. This is this is a total common theme,
is that if it if the person seems like they're
not gonna win, like they don't have much of the chance,
there's no regardless of if they're the person who should yep, exactly,
and so they just don't take that. They don't take
that bet. They don't want to. Um, and I get
it right, you're you know you you raise money, you

(30:39):
want to spend it in ways that are going to
be effective. Well, the way I see it is that
we're filling a gap that there are many organizations who
will fund you once you get to a certain point
and help you make it from you know, here to here,
but there are very few people who will help you
make it from here to here. Um. For anybody listening,

(31:03):
that was the second one was a lot smaller of
a gap. Yeah. Sorry, I realized it's not a the
gestures were maybe not so helpful, but um, but yeah,
that's it's it's kind of like if it were on
a if it were on a curve, then and I'm
still using hand gestures now, but not words. I know,

(31:24):
we should just put this up on my hands. I've
been thinking that a lot, by the way, because I
started this podcast and then I'm like, wait, but people
have told me my whole life that I'm so expressive
with my face, and I'm like, I just cut off
the whole side of mine. You know it. Well, I
started making when I started doing all these podcasts, I
started asking the person who's helping me schedule and I'm like,
can you tell me if they're supposed to be video
involved or not? Because a few times I showed up

(31:46):
thinking that there was no video and yes, and then
I'm like, oh wait, right right right, I actually I
put on lipstick, but it's only because of you. It's
for you. This is my thank you so much? It
totally um so yeah, that that's that's kind of the

(32:06):
point behind it is that like what we'll take risks
and and you know, the people I'm fundraising from, I'm
not trying to make the promises that all the candidates
are gonna win, that we're going to have this track
record of you know, I don't even care if we
if half of our candidates win. I think that it's
still successful if if we get any wins, and if
we're setting these people up to win down the road,

(32:28):
or if we're making a dent in the electoral turnout.
That's the other thing is that once one organization with
a certain amount of credibility gets in, others will be like, oh,
they think it's possible then, and then they start to
get in and then they literally become less of a
long shot. Yeah, exactly exactly a huge kind of gap
in what needs to happen and that you're able to
do as a pack. That's not just about directly giving money,

(32:50):
as you can mobilize, and so there's a there's a
real we Women are a very strong voting block democratic women,
especially women vote more than men. But that is really
like at the older ages that we've seen that and
women at the older ages are not necessarily inclined to
vote for other women, and so women as a voting

(33:12):
block from like the ages of eighteen to forty five,
we want to figure out how to mobilize them not
just to show up in a presidential election, but to
show up in every single election and specifically vote for
women because they're women, and that we want actually we
actually want representation, We want to get to parity, and
it's not it is it. We don't have any shame
in saying that you should vote for women because they're women,

(33:32):
Whereas that's I think that's what historically been kind of
like a a taboo thing to say, and even women
have shied away from it, like I don't want to
support just because a woman. I'm like, yeah, you should
support women because they're women. There's all kinds of all
kinds of research to back that up. Plus there's just
the fact that we need to have equal representation. I
think it's so genius that at the most basic level,
what you're interested in is taking bigger risks finding people

(33:54):
who might be bigger risks but worth it because I
feel like you're superpower because of what you went through.
Is um like not being risk averse, Like you know,
shitty stuff went down, so like what is there to
be afraid of? I mean, you know, there continues to
be because life is complicated, but like, you know, there's
something really real about that. And it makes me think

(34:15):
of this quote I have from your book. You said
women continue to feel unsafe in both the real world
and online when we are assaulted. Even from the time
where little girls, our minds are already warped to the
point that we are afraid it's our fault if a
man hurts us. We worry that we won't be believed
or that we will feel shamed if we come forward.

(34:35):
And those concerns are founded in harsh truths that, my friends,
is the patriarchy winning. That's misogyny thriving at the most
fundamental level. If we can't even have a basic expectation
of safety, how can we claim our power? Yeah? You know,
I mean my question, of course is so how do

(34:56):
we claim our power? And your whole book is sort
of an answer to that, And I think talking about
parody is a massive, massive part of that. Yeah, And
and I think that's exactly it is, that all of
these things kind of coincide and that you're not going
to have or depending on each other. I guess right.
Men don't understand that same kind of risk that we feel.

(35:17):
Are that that that vulnerability that we feel around physical safety,
They just aren't. They're not exposed in that way. There.
I remember from the time that I was, you know,
very young, you're taught as as a girl, you don't
go out by yourself. You don't. You can't ride your
bike alone. You don't, you know what I mean, Like
you're you. Boys have just all this freedom because they're boys,

(35:38):
and because they just don't. They're taught that you're you're strong,
you're you're not going to be a victim. But girls,
it's the opposite. You need to watch out for everything.
And so I think that I think that just having
grown up with a totally different experience, there are many
men that I think are sympathetic to that who want
women to be safe, who who who think about it

(35:59):
in this like savior kind of mentality. That's not necessarily
a bad thing, but also it is not is not
a It might be more of a sympathetic thing than
an empathetic thing. And it's not going to get prioritized
in the same way um as people who really get it.
It's not gonna turn into legislation that that translates into
the real world, and that translates as meaningfully if you

(36:20):
if you haven't been raised with exactly the kinds of
concerns that we're trying to address. So and this is
why you're saying vote for women because of women. It's
not because of the vagina part of the woman experience experience,
and that we have so many shared experiences as women.
I wonder how, I mean, especially for those of us
who follow you on Twitter, how like humor sort of

(36:43):
please its way because obviously we were just talking about
it's like so dark, right, and obviously you've talked really
publicly about suicide. You've talked about the connection between statistics
about suicidal thoughts and cyber exploitation. And then on the
other hand, like you know, you're are fucking hilarious, thank you,
and your tweets are like, so you just recently said, um,

(37:06):
I had a few former colleagues text me today and
say I'm so jealous. You can say whatever you want now,
and I'm just like, well, and then a little stroke
there's a trade. Yeah, yeah, that was real. Like I actually,
I don't know what I think. Earlier in the day,
I had I had used a couple of curse words,
and so people a couple of my my old friends

(37:27):
from Congress saw that and we're like, we're like, I
wish I could say that. And I think a few
people who well lots of people who commented were like
they should be able to say whatever they mean to,
and and I should have. I should have clarified they weren't.
They're not saying, they're not not saying what they mean.
They just are not as unfettered with it. I mean

(37:50):
literally politics, right, I mean there are reasons we have
to be politics when we're in whatever employment situations, and
when we're not, we don't. Yeah, And now I'm like,
I don't, I don't get your your own Yeah, exactly,
I've got nothing. I've got nothing holding me back from that.
And I'm like, if I ever do run again, then
it this is me, truly, you know. I had at
least Hogan recently, the president. They were all so wonderful

(38:13):
right of her. And one of the things she said
when I asked her, like what people should really be
doing to prepare to run for office besides you know,
learning how to fund raise, besides the practical stuff, And
she was like, think about being proud of your life.
M M. That's great advice. Yeah, right, because just to
sell it, you have to sell your back story more
than anyone, right. You need to. You need to be

(38:34):
able to translate that to why people should support you.
You need to be able to translate that to um,
you know, how you're going to do a good job,
and and holding that pride and bragging. We are not
naturally inclined to brag about ourselves, and you have to.
And in order to brag about yourself, you have to
be proud of yourself. Yeah, I was just gonna say,

(38:55):
I have a book deal and I'm also writing a
book and it's about the same stuff. Thank you. As
as permission to speak, I mean, the whole idea right
of how do we give ourselves permission? And part of
it is that, you know, inevitably we brag quote unquote
better when it's on behalf of other people. I mean,
it's everything you already talked about, like when you when
you get up to speak, you're not really in almost

(39:15):
no circumstances. Are you just doing it for you right? Right?
But we forget that when all the eyes are on
us and we're like, oh, I'm asking for money, I'm
the one doing the thing, you know. Yeah, we must reconnect.
But there are actual studies that show that there's a
fundamental difference between the motivations for why men run for
office and why women run for office, and we should
take we should take pride in this too, that when

(39:37):
and this is a study of members of Congress from
several years ago. Every member of Congress was asked why
they ran, what what made them decide to do it,
and the majority of the women said that they did
it because they you know, they wanted to do something
good for their community. They um, they wanted to help people,
things like that, that's kind of compassionate descriptors. The majority

(39:58):
of men said that they had always wanted to be
a politician. And so when you talk about like doing
it for other people, we have that, we have that innately,
We have that, you know ingrained in us as truly
our motivation. And that's not necessarily it for guys. Nancy
Pelosi does a great job of saying this, and she

(40:20):
doesn't she doesn't separated based on gender. I think she's
she's still loved the generation who would never want to
say vote for a woman because she's a woman. Um.
But she says that you know, great candidates and members
or politicians or whatever know their why. And to be
able to to be effective, you have to know your why.
You have to know what motivates you, and you have

(40:42):
to be able to share that with other people and
I just think that that's something that we are naturally
better at. And I saw, you know, I was with
other candidates on the trail over and over and over again,
and you really did see like they were just not
as many men who could tell the same compelling stories
about why because and I guess it's because I don't
think that they had as good a reason. I just
don't think they did. Whereas you had these women get

(41:03):
up and they were talking about how their mom, you know,
died because she didn't have health insurance, and they saw
the Affordable Care Act that was in jeopardy, and they
decided that they had to run against their sitting congressman
because he wouldn't host a talent hall about it. And
you just like that amazing documentary that Alexandra was in,
was the other three women to exactly final question this

(41:25):
is from my friend Jessica, who was one of the
people who went door to door for you, and I
asked him if she had any questions, and she wanted
to know what you thought about your if your voice,
if the way you expressed yourself has changed as going
from a you know, a private citizen to campaigning to
you know, obviously being a congress person and then sort
of being an advocate. If you feel like you've noticed

(41:47):
sort of a change, I mean you've also grown a
literally you know age during that. Yeah, if you if
you think about that and how you can help us
to think about our own evolution, oh for sure. Well,
I think part of it is I was comfortable in
my skin for what I was before I became a politician.
You know, I was confident in my role. I knew
that I was an expert in my field. Um, and

(42:10):
so I embraced that and I and I felt confident
when I was speaking about that. You know, anytime, if
you if you want to talk to me anything about
homelessness or housing, I could go into any room with
anybody there and know that I was I was an expert.
And so getting to that point again as a candidate
and having to know enough about all the issues running
for a campaign and running especially in a primary. I

(42:32):
gotta tell you, what you have to know about is
stuff that you just like Democratic primary voters have zero
forgiveness for the fact that you're new. Because I was
getting these things thrown at me that I'm like, fucking no,
I knew a lot more about policy than I think
many people do in in a diverse array of areas.

(42:52):
But but certainly I wasn't an expert in everything, and
you kind of have to become pretty damn close to
an expert and everything very quickly. And how do you
like honor those moment when somebody you know is trying
to sort of put you on the spot about for
me that's obviously very close to their heart and you're like, yet,
literally don't know yet, but that doesn't mean I won't
know right exactly. And being able to answer that well
and know how to, you know, to come off as

(43:15):
as smart and confident but also knowing what you don't
know and willing to learn. Is that's a that's a skill.
That's something that you have. You have to kind of
learn how to do as a candidate. So there's all
kinds of things you have to learn to do as
a candidate that you just didn't have to do before
um and then as a member it changes entirely because
you're now you now have this authority that you didn't have.
You you were trying to convince people, you were trying

(43:36):
to bring people on board. Now you are the authority
and you're trying to you're trying to make people feel better.
You're even going to people who didn't who didn't support you,
but who you serve. Now you were elected to serve
the entire district, the entire community. Um. You don't get
to decide that you're just supporting or you're just helping Democrats.
Should we let Donald Trump know that that's how you know,

(44:00):
Like it would be great to tell a lot of
people that. Um. But so so that was an evolution
and um. And of course again the having to become
confident in all these new things that you didn't know before,
and also the language that you were able to have
on the campaign changes once you become a member of
Congress too, because you are more restricted just in terms

(44:21):
of there are more considerations now you want your elected
official to be like serious and really to to take
all of this seriously and to take their job seriously.
I mean the rules around that are changing as well.
I mean, you know it's hard to navigate. Yeah, and
I don't know that we've all figured that out, but um,
or that we've figured it out at all. I mean
there's like this this concept of authenticity and then you're

(44:42):
like right, and and how do I, you know, actually
apply that because there are different versions of me. I'm
I do know that when I'm being more formal, it's
not totally me, right, totally, yeah, exactly. And and so
then I guess now right coming into coming into my
own again, where I am unrestricted. I don't have any
other or there's no one else that I'm representing except

(45:03):
for the groups that I feel like, the groups of
individuals who I feel like I naturally represent that, you
know that, whether it's women or just underrepresented people, or
the LGBTQ community or um, you know, young people. I
think that there's there're just other ones that kind of
naturally happen, and I feel like I'm I'm supposed to
be a voice for them, but I can be whatever

(45:26):
whatever voice just happens that way, whatever whatever comes to mind.
So to me, there's a great deal of of you know,
new power that's gained that way. I'm just gonna say
what I want to say, and um, you know, some
people won't like it. Like every time I use a
curse word, I have people be like, I really wish
you wouldn't talk like that, or I cringe every time,

(45:48):
you you know, use the vernacular. I've read that comment
the other day. I wonder if you were a man
if I'm sorry it just happen to podcast. But yeah, yeah, no,
but and even I mean, we should take a quick
break and then would come back and find out who
you brought in for us. But I also want to say, like,
even you know, I heard your your Madaline Brand interview,

(46:10):
even just like talking about the gray area nuance of
being a victim of abuse and and and like trusting
that you can actually be in that gray area and
actually think thoughts about how you can improve yourself as
well as how you know you can hold other people accountable.
I'm like, thank you for being a fucking person. Yeah,

(46:31):
it's not nothing, Katie, that's like huge. Yeah. And I
feel like that's one of the reasons I I feel
obligated to talk about it because I honestly, and I
talked about it in the book too, But I honestly
I haven't heard you know, others, even people like Al
Franken or others who who you think I want to
kind of recover from. I don't know something they've done.

(46:53):
I just I just don't feel like people talk about it,
So I don't know there's really just like the pr
spin way of doing things, and then there's like showing
up as a person and saying what what feels true? Okay,
quick break, we'll be right back. So, um, Katie, who

(47:14):
did you bring in for us? Yeah, so I am.
I brought in Kamala Harris and we get to see
her tonight. So yes, we're recording this on Wednesday at
like five o'clock Western Pacific. I mean and m and
she's like going to go on there like any time now. Yes,
thank you, I love it. Yeah, No, she was. She

(47:36):
was an obvious one for me because I had supported
her from the very beginning as for her presidential campaign,
and so clearly she was someone who has inspired me
for a long time. And I just can't wait to
see how she When you talk about evolving and maturing
and growing into new roles, this one's just going to
be incredible for her completely. I have a little tiny
thirty second clip I'm gonna play for us, and then

(47:58):
we're gonna talk about her for just a minute. Great.
I specifically wanted to pick a moment with Kamala where
she was not on a big stage, not doing a
big speech, and not in like prosecutor mode, but actually
being conversational. Uh. And I found this amazing interview with
her and Sarah Cooper. Do you think that women need
to be more like men or do you think men
need to actually be more like women? I'm first of all,

(48:21):
the toughest people I've known in my life have been women.
So um, and so it's just it's actually just bullshit.
Let's just start there. And you know it is. And
it's interesting because you know, you think about, um, what

(48:43):
there are still myths right about what women can and
cannot do, right in spite of what a woman does
every day? So good right her. Um, this whole interview
with with Sarah Cooper is like so on on the
themes of what we're talking about. I mean, it's so
abo how we show up and what the obligations are
and aren't and you know how we're sort of all changing.

(49:05):
Sarah Cooper asked a really early on in this how
we the electorate start voting for people not based on
their performance quote unquote, but based on how well they'll
actually lead? Yeah? I like that, you know, so this
moment is so lovely, right, I mean she just asked
the obvious question, like all this stuff about having to
be tough, Is it just that women have to act
like men in order to win? Yeah? Yeah, And I

(49:26):
think that one of the things that that Kamala has,
I think she straddles that. She she's she's at the
age where, for a long time, I think you did
have to be more like a man, or were expected
at least to act more like a man and um.
And so I think she went through a lot of
her career like that. I mean, she is a tough

(49:47):
as nail as prosecutor. You've seen it. She's she made
Brett Kavanaugh cry right but um but but she also
has this this very genuine, authentic laugh and um. And
she cares about people. And I think that that when
you when you are able to find that balance of
authenticity and toughness, that's when we are our strongest. I've

(50:09):
definitely felt like their moments when the strength outweighs the warmth,
probably because of her prosecutorial ground and how that's like actually,
you know, rewarded in those certain rooms. And then it's
lovely to see that. You know, she's a great reminder
that we can be different in different rooms, and there
it's still us and also, I mean I love what
you what you pointed out, which is that like the

(50:30):
more the older she gets, the more power she has,
the more she also has a little bit more like
privilege to spend, and so she can spend it, you know,
calling bullshit when she when she sees it. And ideally
we can all do that when we're younger too, But
it's like it is easier when you've earned your ship,
you know, and totally but also like the times have
changed too, and I think that you know, we've we
often see that, I think with women from an older

(50:53):
you know, older women politicians, how empowered or disempowered they
feel about what they can say versus those who are
coming up now. And you know that it's credit to
those who forged the path that we're able to have
this kind of freedom now and and hopefully we're able
to continue pushing that forward as um, you know, for
the next generation. Yeah, and I feel like you've forged

(51:13):
that path. I mean truly, I really, really really want
to thank you for joining us, Thanks for having me.
I'm excited. I have to say, I actually was a
little bit nervous because I was, like, I have a
bunch of vocal tics that that I've also let get
worse because I haven't been doing this. What do you
think are your vocal texs? Oh, they're the total so
cal things that I have, Like all the time. I

(51:36):
do a lot of the not stutters, but kind of
I go back and repeat the last word sort of thing. Um,
I have the ums as I just did. So, yeah,
those they're different things. I mean, we're this is a
very loving space where we talk about all that stuff
in the in the context of like, you know, obviously
we should feel empowered to whatever exorcize the ticks that

(52:01):
don't work for us, but also like embrace the ones
that are just representative of our identity. And so often
it's just like that exact same um and that exact
same you know, sometimes vocal fry comes up that a
man can get away with a woman feels like she can't.
And so I'm here to obviously say, like the patriarchy interesting,
I'm just curious to get your theory on this. You

(52:22):
can use this part or not. But just yesterday I
had a a guy here from the neighborhood where I'm
visiting who said he had a theory that I I
am taken a bit more seriously, like I have an
immediate gravitas that as a woman that other women sometimes
don't have because I have a naturally deeper voice. And

(52:46):
I'm interested if you have any thoughts on that. Look,
that is very stereotypically a thing. You know, There's two
different things I want to say. One is our voice
is higher, sometimes just because of our natural anatomy, and
sometimes because we're us, or we we have sort of
gotten habitually to this point where we're are. What comes
out sounds like we don't have power. So if we're

(53:07):
talking up here, it could just be because of our anatomy,
but largely it's not. And so what we're hearing is
somebody who's cut themselves off from their sense of power.
That's interesting, right, So if what we're your your voice
is not necessarily that low, right, it's not like hi,
you know, it's like your god bless what's her name?
From them? Right? Um? Right, It's not that, it's that
you're actually connected to your to your sense of power.

(53:29):
You're breathing your your body. You're embodied, as I like
to say, I mean like you're literally using your body.
So I sort of don't want to throw women with
higher voices under the bus. But there is something to
be said for everybody listening to notice, like, am I
really cutting myself off from my sense of power? Do
I have chess residence? Or am I just coming? Am
I just coming out from up here? So you know,
that's that's totally perfect way of describing it. Because I

(53:51):
had the person who replaced me at Path. She was
my CEO and and then she became the deputy CEO
CEO when I left. Um, she she's tying. She's just
five ft maybe five ft one and a hundred pounds,
and so she's got a naturally higher voice. But she
totally is taken seriously. I think it might take a
second longer for people to because she's also blonde and

(54:11):
cute and tiny and and pretty and um and so
I think it takes her a second longer for people
to take her seriously. But when she does start talking,
you know, she is confident. She does have but it
is a high pitched voice in it, but I don't
think it makes a difference for you know, how she's taken.
So and then the other thing is that something that
I noticed in uh in your resignation speech, and that

(54:32):
you do sometimes, and that I bet comes from the
you know, authoritative experience you have had, is it. Sometimes
you don't use a huge amount of pitch, so it
isn't like a lot of up and downing, which sometimes
shows our vulnerability when we don't want to. Sometimes it's
like the swoopy southern California thing. It can sound really girly.

(54:53):
I'm all for like using pitch variation, you know, I
really want people to feel free. But when we don't
and when we need to show some like take me
fucking seriously, we often use a little bit less And
so I think what he might be hearing is not
necessarily the pitch as much as like, I am keeping
my voice down here to make it clear that I'm
in charge and I am not, you know, I'm unplappable. Interesting. Interesting, Yeah,

(55:13):
I like that. I'll have to tell him this. His
theory is a little bit grounded in sexism. Whatever. I mean,
like a dude telling you a woman about her voice.
I mean, um, Katie, thank you, thank you. Wait, did
you actually drink your rose plus ice cube? I've finished

(55:35):
the lass of one. While we were talking, and and
and very kind and generous soul brought me another one,
so I have no shame anymore. You're chilling. It's like
a fifteen now, so we know. But I feel like
that's the that's the superpower. You're right that you put
it better than me for sure, having no shame, dude, right,
it's on your naked pictures are everywhere. You lose shame,

(55:58):
Like it's just you can't have it more. It's it's
truly what again, But like once you get past once
you get past that, then it it is. It is
a bit you know, empowering, and like that's why I
decided I was going to take the the name for
my podcast that's going to be starting soon that we'll
have to circle back and you know, um swap off

(56:21):
on or whatever, Oh my god would be draining, but
I um, I decided to call it Naked Politics because
you know, I think that there's you're taking back the
narrative I'm trying to do. And you've and I know
you've talked to Montica Lewinsky as well. Yeah, the times
have changed so much in the last I mean even
in the last few years. Let alone, I'm like along away.

(56:43):
I feel like sometimes deeply hopeful and sometimes like oh shit,
am I accidentally being hopeful because really, like we're seeing
same patterns happen now for over, you know, but I'm
inherently help. I mean, the whole point of my book
is like, this is the world that we're heading towards,
as is yours. Yeah, I mean I think I think
we have to be hopeful, and I believe it still,
And you know, it was something I learned from being

(57:04):
in the in the world of trying to solve you know,
one of what I think is the most difficult problems
in society, which is homelessness. You you're faced with so
much difficulty every day, and and in in Congress it's
the same thing, right, You see these problems and you're like, fuck,
how are we going to solve these? Were so far
away from being able to do it. But you have

(57:24):
to have this general hopefulness that like, we're gonna chip
away at it as much as we can. We're gonna
help one person at a time, We're gonna, um, you know,
change this little piece that might have an impact on
some people somewhere, and some actions are going to be
bigger than others. And that's that's all you can do.
We just have to keep going. There's no other option
if you if you fall into despair, then what is

(57:49):
the point of anything? Uh time or other drink for um.
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you to Katie Hill for
joining me. You can find out more about her book
and her pack in the show notes or on our

(58:11):
website Permission Speak pod dot com. I'm doing I G
Lives every Thursday, guys, so join me there tomorrow at
Permission to Speak Pod. It's Q and A style, so
you know, ask me actual questions or just you know,
watch it afterwards and learn something new. And as always,
you can send me d M s at Permission to
Speak Pod on Instagram or submit through the website. Let

(58:32):
me know what's going on with your boys, let me
know if this conversation brought up anything for you. Let
me know what you think about women needing to sound
tough and strong and like a man to be taken seriously.
Thank you to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I
Heart Radio and all of you. We're recording this podcast
at various locations around Los Angeles on land that is

(58:54):
the historic gathering place for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and
you can visit us d A c dot us US
to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to Speak
is a production of I heart Radio and Double Vision
Executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark Canton. For
more podcasts from iHeart Radio, listen on the i heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.