August 5, 2020 • 50 mins
Samara and her pod producer Cat take listener questions and talk big ideas—about how to stop people pleasing in a pandemic, how tiny choices we’ve made throughout our lives got us the voices we have now, what’s up with trying to convince others that we have authority, and a whole lot of Samara’s own juicy backstory.
Host: Samara Bay
Executive producers: Catherine Burt Cantin & Mark Cantin, Double Vision doublevisionprojects.com
Producers: Samara Bay, Sophie Lichterman and the iHeart team
Theme music: Mark Cantin
Samara on IG: @samarabay
Cat on IG: @catburt & @doublevisionprojects
Quote: Esther 4:14
Email us at permissiontospeakpod@gmail.com – where do you need more permission?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's quote, it's from the Bible. I interviewed a woman
running for office in the election for state Senate about
how she decided to run, how she decided specifically to
sort of go public, to go from being somebody who's
you know, living a private life and not, you know,
(00:20):
putting herself out there to be seen and heard and
judged into somebody who is. And she quoted the Bible
and she said, there's the story about Esther who had
a fancy position inside the court, and the Jews were
in trouble because it's the Bible. Uh. And so Mordecai
from the Jews asked her to, you know, use her
(00:42):
position to speak to the king, and she said, I
don't have permission. And he wrote back and said, do
not think that because you were in the king's house,
you alone of all the Jews, will escape. For if
you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for
the Jews will arise from another place. But you and
your father's family will perish. And who knows but that
(01:04):
you have come to your royal position for such a
time as this. Welcome to permission to speak. The podcast
about how we talk and how we get ourselves heard
with me Samarbe. Today's guest is me just kidding but
(01:32):
sort of. My podcast producer Cat and I are doing
a mailbag episode, and um, we've broken into two halves.
For the first half, it's a lot of questions about me,
but really filling in some of the gaps for you
guys of my career path. And also I think some
really foundational stuff I believe about the voice and putting
(01:56):
the voice into context. We got so many good questions
we decided to obviously do a massive two part episode
here and part two will drop next week. And if
you don't hear your question in this one, you might
hear it in the next one. Truly, I love you, guys,
(02:17):
I love getting questions, and I really hope more than
anything that this episode you're about to hear in the
next one are helpful, either in specific tips that you
can apply to what's going on with you, or in
the very fact that this conversation is happening. That there
is so much to say and to discover about our
(02:41):
voices and our sense of power and how those two
things dance together. And I'm really left feeling like the
answer always besides giving ourselves permission, and in relation to
giving ourselves permission is that we need each other, and
we need each other to to listen better to each
other and to resonate and to raise your hand and
(03:04):
say that resonates with me. You're not alone, and to
keep each other a high five for speaking up even
when you know our voices are shaky, and even when
we're going to rock the boat because boat rocking is
really scary, but um, maybe the boat's gonna cap size
and maybe we'll be okay. This is mail Bag Part one.
(03:33):
Good morning, Samara, Hello Catherine. I would actually, if you
don't mind, just like to hog the mic for a
second and open up with one of my favorite quotes
and maybe you could guess who says it. How our
voice sounds has everything to do with how our inner
voice sounds. To change the world, we must first change
(03:53):
how we talk to ourselves. That is the Samara bay
is m if ever. I've heard it and is a
simiar vism, and it's so relevant now. It's relevant always,
but now more than ever. I'm really thinking about this
because the more you know, until I launched this podcast,
I was really working one on one like that was
my jam and there is a future in which I'm working,
(04:15):
you know, one on many, And obviously, if there wasn't
a pandemic um, i'd already be kind of underway with that.
I had a bunch of workshops like scheduled for the
spring tier. You know, this might not be obvious, but
part of the deal with working one on one versus
working on one on many is that the job suddenly
becomes not dealing with the person who's in front of
(04:36):
me with all of their uniqueness, but rather what are
the big pattern themes that are applicable for all of us?
And that's actually been a huge shift because, as you know,
as a one on one coach, I didn't actually have
to think. I would notice like, oh, I get you're
going to fit into this category. I see you in
unique individual human but also like you're going to fit
(04:57):
into this category. But now I have to be really
intentional about, like what are the categories so that I
can lead the conversation and sort of allow people to
see themselves in those categories. It's like a whole different
mindset um. But yes, one of the things that comes
up all the time, and that I realized I didn't
necessarily think about when I was coaching one on one.
But I'm thinking about a lot now. Is that you know,
(05:19):
permission to speak. It is partly about the speaking, but
it's so much about the permission and that has to
do with how we talk to ourselves. It really does.
And I want to just backtrack a little bit and
say congratulations to you for many things. This podcast has
gone through many a season since we first pitched pitched
this to ihearted. Um. I mean the last time we
(05:40):
recorded our first mail Bag episode, I was sitting in
my car, you were sitting in your your house, and
we were like, we're in the middle of this thing
right now. We can't see each other, but like it'll
be a couple of weeks and then we'll just, you know,
get back to it. Well cut cut a couple of
months now, and we're still in the same situation. I'd
like to open up with this from a listener. She says,
(06:03):
all of my life, I've had people tell me that
I'm too loud, that I speak too fast or too harshly,
and I feel seen by everything you discussed in your interviews.
Sometimes I have to pause the podcast and sit down
to think for a minute, because you really lay out
and point to a lot of the issues that I've had,
the things that I've been feeling but I can't really
identify with. And so it's nice to finally have someone
(06:24):
understand and to have a community that understands. I love that. Yeah. Yeah,
you know, what can I say? I mean, you really
get it. You get it. I really do feel like
you are. You're kind of crushing the game over there.
We have a variety of guests that have come on,
and you're really connecting with people in a time where
(06:45):
it's really hard to stand up and use your voice
or or maybe not for some, but it's a very
very uh bonkers time. Is that the appropriate term to you?
I think that's the scientific term. Yeah, And I'm just
this podcast. I mean, you were in Good Housekeeping number
eleven for like the top twenty podcast. I mean, this
is a huge, huge moment for people to stand up
(07:07):
and use their voices to get what they want, to
feel heard and to feel seen. And I found I mean,
part of what that letter that you just read makes
me think of is that, like, yes, this is about
using our voices, but it's also just about feeling like
people get us. With all of the drama that does
come up with our voices, Like, we aren't going to
solve all of it in you know, in this episode.
(07:30):
But I mean, you know, even in the doing this podcast,
you know, listening to a podcast episode does not necessarily
solve every one of your guys, you know, drama with
like what's going on with you and what mean people
or you know, whatever thoughtless people say to you. But
to know that there's a community of people who get it,
I think is actually part of the solution because we can't,
you know, affect other people's reactions, but we can't affect
(07:51):
how we process it. We haven't seen each other in
person since your birthday drive by a few months ago
in May and a lovely day it was. But how
you doing? How you doing over there? I'm okay, loaded question,
I'm okay, Yeah, I'm okay. I mean it's been a lot. Um,
you know, I feel like everybody is either overworked or
(08:13):
underworked right now. Um. We're recording this the day after
I did um a ask an expert video for Create
and Cultivate, and it was such an honor to be
on their platform because it's such a huge platform and
it's so many you know, like minded women. I mean,
I like to say that part of my dream client
(08:34):
is women on a mission and create and cultivate is
all about women trying to build the careers of their dreams,
which inevitably for many of us, involves something that also
feels like it's good for the planet. It's good for
you know, the soul. It's purpose driven, as people say,
quote unquote purpose driven. But I will say that doing
that version of I g Live, where I had thirty
(08:57):
minutes and I really had like a tight thirty of
content and I was using their slides um, which is
a really gorgeous like technological you know, bonus um. I
don't feel like I actually killed it in as much
of a way as I wanted to, because I'm such
an interactive person. I mean, I'm such an extrovert. I
get my energy from other people, and it didn't set
(09:20):
me up to do that. And you know this is
I sort of bring this up because I've been sitting
with it um, not to actually be hard on myself,
but to like properly post mortem, because obviously any chance
any of us have to speak publicly is a chance
to think about, like, how are we making an impact?
Like what is it to speak publicly? And partly I
(09:41):
feel like check, check check. I did what I wanted
to do. And partly I'm like, oh, there were new
challenges I was not ready for, and you know, one
of them is that there was I was getting comments
the entire time, but because I had such a tight
you know, amount of time and and and a lot
of content I wanted to get through, I wasn't giving
myself permission to stop and read the comments, and thus
(10:03):
I was feeling disconnected from my audience. And I'm not
at my best that way. So I feel like that
is something that I that I woke up with this morning.
But also that like every chance I get, whether it's
on the podcast or I'm doing you know, much looser
and more fun for me, I g lives on my
own social feed with you guys, uh, is like another chance,
(10:24):
another chance to just keep working on what it is
to be authentically ourselves in front of a microphone or
in front of other humans. I mean, I kind of
like to joke that I'm patient zero. I'm so with
everybody else here. Yes, I have expertise in a lot
of aspects of this work, but also I have not
actually been a person who has been seen and heard
(10:45):
by lots of people until literally February when we launched
this podcast. I recently was listening to Lisa Nichols, who's
an amazing inspirational, transformational speaker, and she uses this term
servant leadership, this idea that as leaders are job is
to be of service, right. I very much want to
be in that tradition, and I also want to be
(11:06):
really honest about the fact that, like the time is,
as my podcast producer says, bonkers and um And one
of my favorite things about um Viv Groscop not when
she was on my podcast, but the thing that I
told you guys to go listen to her her Zoom
her how to Own the Zoom YouTube thing is that
she said that there are no experts in how to
(11:26):
function during a pandemic, and anybody who says that they are,
you know, are full of it. And I really want
to just honor that you had mentioned a Roomy quote
that I just I love. Oh my god, Yes, I
posted this on on Instagram. It says, the quieter you become,
the more you're able to hear. By Roomy and Um
(11:47):
I wrote after permission to not speak is often just
as hard to give ourselves. Maybe it's people pleasing or
perfectionism or the hustle, but we feel like we need
to have the answers and now. And I said, I
commit to no more answers today. Uh, it's really hard.
It's really hard to because also then when somebody asks
(12:08):
something of us, whether it's our child or you know,
a podcast listener, um, you know, producer, we all want
to be we all want to be. Yeah, totally right.
The day that I that I said I commit to
know more questions or no more answers, um cat called
me to like talk through some decisions and I was like,
I don't. I mean, you know, like modern life, there
are like certain requirements, but you know what, this is
(12:30):
an honest raw time, Like why should we in life
not be able to say I can't do this right
now or I don't want I'm working on it. I'm
actually really I'm really actively and I would love all
of us to be on this kick. Like people pleasing,
the other side of it is that when we don't
please somebody, then we have to sit with what that
feels like. It's not like they're the same regardless of
whether or not we people please, they're not. That's why
(12:50):
we people please. We are used to doing that mental
labor so that people like us and so that people
so that everything goes smoothly. And you know, I mean,
I'm just because I'm always all about the gray areas.
If we don't people please, if we actually say no
when we want to say no instead of yes when
it would be easier for the other people, then suddenly
(13:11):
there is blowback. And then is that blowback going to
require as much mental labor to smooth over? Because if so,
like I'm not incentivized to stop people pleasing, you know,
this is like this is the actual My my dad,
God Blessed sent me this amazing New York Times piece
uh last week about um people pleasing in the age
of the pandemic, and it came down to, like, I mean,
(13:32):
I I just, oh God, I feel this so hard.
It truly came down to stuff like if women historically
and traditionally and in our own lives really uh are
a little bit you know, more um likely to be
people pleasing, then like we literally are putting ourselves a
danger because if someone is less concerned about the pandemic
(13:54):
than we are, and says, come to brunch, it would
make me feel so much better. Then we're like literally
think life and death and also thinking people pleasing and
trying to balance like relationships versus taking care of ourselves.
And this relationship versus self is this like really deep
psychological you know thing. I mean, men are supposed to
(14:14):
be better at taking care of themselves and women are
supposed to be better at relationships, and like so much
of society is built to support that. And if we,
you know, stop playing by the rules, how big are
the pieces that we're going to have to pick up?
We're all on this roller coaster of emotions and it
doesn't all align at the same time. I had an
experience with a friend um the morning after we had
(14:35):
protesting in our neighborhood in West Hollywood, and she really
after I called to check in with her, said simply,
I can't talk to you right now. And at first
I was a little taken aback or offended by that reply,
and then I realized, that's fucking awesome that she said
that to me because she just couldn't do it. And
I really actually appreciate it. And I've been trying to
practice and emulate just that myself without feeling like I'm
(14:58):
doing something wrong in regards to this pandemic. You know,
how do you ask people without feeling is as I
guess my my question for you, and how do you
ask people without feeling UM like you're pointing fingers or
you're going to judge them if they are wearing masks,
if they're getting tested, if their social distancing, who they've seen.
I think the well two things. One is that this time,
(15:23):
the fact that this that a mask seems both totally mundane,
like it's just a piece of fabric, and also totally
profound because it's about you know, public health on a
global scale. UM is confusing for a lot of people, Like, truly,
how do we talk to the trivial aspect of it
being a piece of fabric or do we talk to
the profound aspect of it being about you know, life
(15:45):
and death. So I just want to honor first that,
like that's what That's partly why UM talking to people
about this is confusing. I think our brains like don't
know if it's a big thing or a little thing.
But the other part of it is that if we
I think I've been working since literally morning, I woke
up in November whatever that was the Wednesday. I've been
(16:05):
working on um allowing myself to be the alarmist person
in my life, even though my nature is very much
to be low maintenance and to be laid back and
to be a not early adopter. I have been trying
two see all of those things as um ways of
(16:29):
kind of hiding and protecting myself, and that being alarmist
is much more vulnerable. It's much more vulnerable to say
I'm going to take this really seriously before other people do.
But I think it's actually a leadership move, and especially
if we're thinking about in terms of servant leadership, which
is not like my theme, you know, if you're the
leader of your family, which is not to say other
(16:49):
people can't be you know, high mark, but like you know,
but just to say, like in what in what circles
can we can we make a leadership move. The leadership
move in this case is to say it is inconvenient
to ask for what I need, but I'm going to
do it anyway, and I'm going to work on that
muscle and I'm gonna be really loving in the process.
So this is not about shaming people or judging people.
It's about being of use, of servitude to the people
(17:13):
that you love, in this case your family. Right, So
when we're asking before we meet up, I just need
to know what your protocols have been. We can absolutely
say that with a without sounding you know, judge, you're shaming.
We can have that question in our head. Oh god,
am I sounding this way? But let it let it rest,
Let it rest. Right. This is about tone, and our
tone can be as loving and forward, you know, forward energy.
(17:34):
I like doing a physical gesture of like the care
bear stair here, you know, like I love out saying
saying you know. And we can also either apologize, question
mark you know, quotes, or just like just like signpost.
But we can say I'm going to ask a tough
question and I don't want to come across as accusatory.
We can say that, or we don't have to. You
(17:55):
could practice not saying it, but but maybe start out
by saying, but we can signpost like I'm about to
have a tough conversation with you, and ultimately we get
to sort of not say that out loud and just
think it in our heads. But it's useful to do
that so we know what kind of frame we're going into.
And actually, another Lisa Nichols thing is about this idea
of care frontation instead of confrontation, and it's a you know,
(18:15):
I think it's a bit of a h not rolls
off the tongue type of a word. But you can
anybody look this up. It's it's not just Lisa Nichols.
I think it was on an OPRAH show back and
like the nineties. So you know, the idea of care
frontation instead of confrontation is that we are going into
a difficult conversation with the goal in mind of keeping
the relationship intact by the end. So what does each
(18:37):
of us do each look in the theater world, Yeah,
we all know how to we we use this term
fight positively. We all know how in real life to
try to get the other person. I shouldn't say we
all know. We all know that that the dream is
that we get through the tough conversation and the relationship
remains in intact. But the way to do that is
(18:58):
to be really intentional about it. I'm gonna ask a
tough question and I'd love your support, And then the
tough question is let me know how, and you can
think through like is this so, is this a way
to ask this question that's gonna that would make me
feel good? You know, you can think through this ahead
of time. You can either go super direct, right have
you guys been wearing masks? What's been your protocol? Or
(19:18):
you can say, I know it's been really hard. We're
all feeling such fatigue, and I wouldn't be you know,
I'm not. I'm not here to judge you if you
guys have been you know, being loose about it. But
I just need to know for the safety of my family.
I'm so sorry. But there you go. Or we could
flip it and we could say, you tell me how
this sounds. I'm learning how to use my voice during
(19:39):
this pandemic, and my family and I live in an
apartment complex and we see a few people a day,
and this is where we're at, and I want to
let you know where I'm at. So can you let
me know where you're at? Completely? I think the I
think you know in a way, the least um, the
less drama that we can add to it. The less
drama the other person is going to hear in our
voice and and respond with you know, yeah, it's science.
(20:03):
You know like it it isn't. It isn't, but you
know what I mean, Like the conversation can be about
like what protocols are you taking? What protocols am I taking?
Are we a good compatible fit for hanging out? Right now?
You know this is like a weird ass time, y'all. Okay,
we're gonna take a quick break and come back with
more and maybe even get to listener questions. Okay, we're back, cat,
(20:34):
what do we got? So we're gonna start from more
of like a bio section about tomorrow. People have a
lot of questions about you, and I think you've had
such incredible guests on and have such a variety of
elements to who you are and parts of your life.
So let's just start from the top. What exactly do
you do? Samarrow? Is our first question? And how did
you get into this field? God? I mean, where to
(20:57):
where to begin? Um? I decided when I was ten.
I'm not actually gonna tell you guys the day by
day since I was ten, but the story begins. I decided,
literally I remember the day when I was ten, that
I was going to be a Shakespearean actress. That's so
funny because one of my next questions is what did
you want to be when you grow up? I went
(21:19):
to an amazing Shakespeare festival when I was ten, and
then again every summer after that in my hometown of
Santa Cruz, California. Shout out and they did. They had
actors who were jobbed in from New York who were
members of the Union. It was like really high quality, smart,
often modern productions of Shakespeare. I remember a production of
(21:41):
the Tempest that was very Gilligan's Island and the soundtrack
was Blondie, so like it wasn't just you know, old
staid Shakespeare. I was like, I see what they're doing.
By the way, I was fifteen at that time, so
that that one I wasn't ten, but that one I
remember just being like, I see what they're doing. I
see how shakespea beer is not just somebody who lived
(22:03):
four hundred years ago and you know, bully him for
getting lots of words that sounded pretty and stringing them together,
but rather that Shakespeare is an opportunity for us, in
every one of our lives and every season of our lives,
to um revisit ancient yet modern um ideas about how
(22:23):
humans behave and what it is to like exist together.
And I think actually in a way that that has,
like it's so beautiful influenced my life because you know,
the idea of using Shakespeare, like it's not just Shakespeare
in and of itself, but it's using Shakespeare to help
us process our modern world. I'm all about using now
fill in the blank, anything to help us process our
modern world. Like that's kind of I don't want to, like,
(22:45):
I don't actually care about the voice except in so
much as it helps us process our modern world. You know,
like nothing really for me matters in and of itself.
Oh my god, that that's horrible. Care about nothing, No,
But I mean context matters, right, I mean it's so
it's profoundly um valuable to me to think about it
that way. Um. But yeah, So when I was ten,
(23:06):
hadn't cotton to those thoughts yet. But I was like,
I don't know what it is, but I want to
do that. And I it took me really till I
was like thirty to figure out what it is. Part
in between when I was ten and when I was thirty,
I thought it was act and I thought it was
two regional Shakespeare be a nomadic actress never get married,
never have money. Just like I really clearly super romanticized
(23:28):
this um and in a way, I kind of did
everything right in order to be an unpaid Shakespearean actress,
by the way, that's what I mean. And that entailed
going to New York getting a master's degree in acting,
you know, a three year acting program where I was
doing like voice and speech and yoga and um modern
as well as Shakespeare all day every day. You know,
I really, like check check check, was a very good
(23:51):
student of the world to get this thing done, and
ended up in New York, got a lot of auditions
at like literally Shakespeare in the Park in New York City.
I mean, it was like the thing, and it just
never happened. And it's not to say that it wouldn't
if I hadn't stayed for another ten years. But I
saw the writing on the wall. I'm a little weird looking.
(24:12):
That's that's an actor thing to say. But no, like literally,
especially especially in my twenties, but when it was just
an earlier era, uh no one quite knew to do
with a ethnically ambiguous person. Everybody was like, that's so
in right now. But literally then they wanted specificity for
roles and in big ambiguity is the opposite. And uh
and I was a little like um, I was a
(24:33):
little more of like a character actor despite being gorgeous.
So no oneknywe to do with me, Thanks Scott. But
this idea of quote to what no one knew what
to do with me. I don't mean to say that
to put myself down. I mean I literally was told
that over and over and over. And that was what
my acting experience was like. And this is so cliche
that I kind of skipped this part when I talked
to people about this. But my twenties in New York,
(24:54):
when I was living like my dream, both in terms
of actually doing the thing and also in terms of like,
oh my god, I got so many free tickets to
Broadway shows. I had so many friends. I was never sleeping,
I was drinking so much red wine. I was like,
I was like, I was like making it. I was
a cocktail waitress. I was I did a billion odd
jobs to get by. But I also in between all
(25:17):
that was getting so much free stuff and was like
hacking the system in terms of like finding the fun
in New York City. But I just could not get
paid to act, period, and I could not get representation
that was really, you know, worthy of the training and
all this stuff I had done and I got. I
had comment after comment after comment. I'll never forget this one.
(25:39):
I did to pay to play, where you you know,
pay to get to meet somebody who could possibly bring
you on as a as a client, uh for like
an agent or manager, I don't remember what he was.
And he's he looked at my head shot and he said,
you're wearing glossy lips stick in your head shot and
I was like, yeah, I like it, it's my look.
He's like, you got an m f A in acting,
(25:59):
you don't need to wear glossy lipstick. Oh no, he's happening. Also,
then I moved to l A, where everybody was like
literally then I got told when I moved to l A,
take the m f A off your resume. No one
cares that you got trained and if anything, I could
work against you, so you know acting god. And now
flash forward even more. Now everyone's wearing masks and wants
to get botox and this part of their face like
(26:21):
speaking of what did you study though? Did you study
acting underground? Undergrad? I could it's not a thing. I
went to Princeton undergrad and I was an English major.
But uh and and Princeton is super thank you. That
it's very I mean conservative was the word I was
going to say. I have all kinds of things I
can say about this, the social life there, but no,
what I was gonna say is that it's very conservative
(26:42):
in terms of like there are very few majors you
can major in. It's really like we do English economics, philosophy,
you know, it's like these really kind of standard You
can't do interdisciplinary work. At least you couldn't back when
I went there. Um and so I was an English major.
But there's five programs. Creative Writing is one of them. Uh,
focuses on different aspects of English literature. Uh. And mine
(27:06):
was program five, the fifth one, which is Dramatic Literature.
Which I say because what really happened is that I
got to just read plays and get a degree, and
in my downtime I was doing what I was doing
like six shows e here, I mean producing and acting
and doing all the things. So it was an amazing
it was an amazing place to go for that. It
didn't necessarily like launched me out into the acting world.
(27:28):
You know, I ended up having to get the m
f A and feeling like I needed to film the caps.
But all of this is to say that happened. And
when I got out of grad school I was twenty six,
I moved right to New York City. I tried to,
you know, make this acting thing happen, like I was
really really good at hustling. But uh, right away I
had some mentors in the dialect coaching world who I
(27:51):
had met in the gap year between college and grad
school when I was in New York as well, who
just started to throw me clients. I mean I was
not at a dialect coach in my mind, I was like, thanks,
I'm an actor. But I knew that, like obviously dialect
coaching on the side was going to be a better
way to make money than you know, just waiting tables.
(28:12):
So I said yes. And it really took me years
and moving to l A and you know, circumstances changing
before I realized that that is actually much more where
my strength lies. And then there was also this transition
into coaching not just actors but kind of everyone, which
has happened really just since I mean the election and
that's where we turned the page. It's funny because I
(28:36):
actually started my young career as an intern at Shakespeare
in Company in Lenox, Massachusetts and did not go the
same path as you. And I'm like, wow, it's like
sliding doors. But I will say I will say that
I think my superpower is because of the probably the
English major neists, but also this, you know, really lifelong
(28:59):
Shakespeare understanding. I was going to say appreciation. I've gone
through phases where I'm like enough sucking Shakespeare, but my
Shakespeare understanding. Um. And also the years that I've worked
with actors on various scripts. I mean, in between working
on big projects, I was doing like one on one
coaching for auditions, and it would just be like during
pilot season, you know, it would be like twenty in
(29:19):
a week. Um. My secret skill is in understanding what's
happening with real humans under the surface of the lines
on the page, and that actually translates to real humans
as well as as well as the as well as
the characters that were written by writers. But really being
able to understand, like if the line of text is wow,
(29:40):
that's so exciting, being able to go okay, so that
person is trying to placate this other person, but they're
not really in it. And you can tell because of
the line before, or you can tell because of the
tone that's written in and helping first of all foreigners
with that kind of really subtle understanding of the the
you know, nuance of of own UM, but even helping Americans.
(30:02):
I mean, when we're looking at words on a page,
we can get really myopic and and kind of just
see the words. And I'm here on the side side coaching,
being like, but here's how human behavior works. So what
I find so interesting about you is that you have
such a thoughtful connection between the heart and the brain
and the mind. And maybe that's because you grew up
(30:23):
in a home with UM people that are incredibly brilliant. UM.
I love your parents awesome, and I know you've done
some really awesome things with them. But did the order
that you learned or fell in love with the voice?
Is it more mechanical or more and like mental, more
deeply rooted in your heart. That's such a such a
lovely question, I am. I loved learning about the International
(30:48):
Phonetic Alphabet, which is the more technical stuff that I
know about. UM. It's fascinating. Tell tell us about this,
so you know, we can talk about technically a few
different ways. One of the things that's that's technical about
the voice is literally the anatomy. I actually never learned
about that. That's why I was awesome to have Dr
Gupta on And actually, as I'm writing parts of my
(31:10):
book that require a really nuanced understanding of like how
the how breath works in the body, I'm having to
go to resources. For sure, I do not have that
living inside of me. But the other way we can
talk about technical is the stuff that's kind of from
like the neck up. This is sort of the joke
of like what articulation is versus voice work is really
(31:31):
just like what's happening in the mouth. And even that
I don't I don't actually linger that much. In the
anatomical people talk about oral posture, which is this fancy
term for like where your voice is placed in your mouth.
It's not I don't think that way. But the International
Phonetic Alphabet is sort of like learning music. It is
annoying to learn music theory, but then you can play music.
(31:53):
It is annoying to learn all the symbols of the
International Phonetic alphabet. But then you can decode anybody's accent
in the entire your world. So cool. I don't want
to name names, but I have a friend who is
an English teacher and English is not her first language,
and she wasn't making the hard G sound happen in
(32:14):
the word English. So every time she was introducing a
new program, she was saying English English, there's an n
G sound M. It's a single symbol in international for that,
a alphabet, the n G M. And then she was
going from the UMM into the L English English, and
I could hear it and instantly be like, oh, there's
a hard G that happens after the um in googog
(32:37):
English when we actually pronounced that word, when when Native
American speakers pronounced that word, and she was leaving it
out and trying to make this really amazing like energy
into L happened, which I don't know, I don't think
maybe happens in English. A few people actually wrote in
about how did you figure out what you wanted to
do as a career. I'm feeling lost, and I think
what you said. You know, you being a results driven person,
and a lot of people are when we're trying to
(32:59):
discover and figure out that, and you can't have that
in front of you, to just feel that passion and
to tap into what you love. I mean it sounds
so cliche and like we're really lucky to be able
to even you know, have the opportunity to live that way.
But I think if we can connect the brain and
the heart like you do and really just move forward
and find find curiosity and what we're exploring in life,
(33:21):
I don't know, I think that's like such I think
it's confusing too, because there's such a um there's such
a culture of follow your passion, find your dream, don't
let anybody tell you know, and that keeps that makes us,
That makes it very hard for us to as room.
He says, be quiet and maybe here well that too,
but to be quiet in here because sometimes you know,
when you're ten and you decide what you want to
(33:41):
do in twenty years later, you're still fighting for it.
There is definitely a way you can talk to yourself
and say that's right, you're brave, you're courageous, you're not
let us listening to know. And there's another part of
you that can say, um, maybe when I was ten,
I didn't actually know what I wanted to do with
my life, and I am allowed to change and pick it.
And I will tell one story. When I was thirty one,
(34:04):
I had just gotten to l A and I got
this really fancy agent for TV and film dialect work,
who I still have. She's amazing, going a little crazy
and the pandemic because everything is shut down. God bluss um.
I did my first onset coaching. It was a little
movie that not a lot of people saw, perfect for me.
(34:24):
But I was being paid more than like everybody else
on set because it was sag ultra low budget, which
if anybody listening and knows, means like everyone on set
is getting paid a hundred bucks a day. I mean
it's like no, you know, uh. But I got a
little more than that and was like, oh my god,
I'm living the dream. And I was just to set
the scene. At the time, when I was thirty ish,
newly in l A. I was a personal assisting for
(34:47):
a celebrity who is a difficult human be trying to
make acting happen now on this coast with also no
representation and trying to get taken seriously, which was you know,
painful of the soul and then three suddenly dialect coaching
on my first movie, getting paid more than anyone else.
(35:09):
Uh Billy Crystal was on set and the director at
the beginning of the process was clearly like, who is
this smiley, weird girl hanging out with my lead actor? Why?
Like who led her on our set? And by the end,
I remember we were doing post production where it was
the actor and in front of a microphone and the
(35:29):
director and me and like the script supervisor alone in
a room trying to get some post production means we
were fixing sound stuff after we had actually finished shooting
the movie, and the actor did what he needed to
do into the microphone and the director goes, good for me, Samara,
is that good for you? And I cannot tell you
that was in a way when it all clicked, And
(35:52):
I was like, trying to find people in this town
to take me seriously as an actor is not worth it.
When I can have this feeling of being a thirty
year old girl with this toll you know, director man
with this like huge persona deferring to me, And I
(36:12):
was like, that's when I realized that ten year old
me didn't know what but she was doing. I mean, god,
bless right. I had to go through it and it
made me better. And the way that I tell that
story about but when I was ten is on purpose
because I said that I wanted to do that, and
I didn't know what that was. And it turns out
that what that was quote unquote, that wasn't acting. It
was some other thing that has to do with when
(36:32):
you're in an audience and everybody's breathing together, and a
story is being told and people are being moved, and
there are so many different puzzle pieces to put together
that image. You don't have to act to do that.
As it turns out, I can help an actor tell
the story in a way that feels more embodied and
more real, and help a director feel like I'm helping
(36:54):
that actor tell the story using language they don't know.
How often directors don't know how to talk to actors
the way I do, which is not to say that
I'm encroaching on director's territory, but it's to say that
we're all working together as a team to tell the
story that's ultimately going to make that audience all breathed
together as one. Well. That was one of our Another
listener's questions was what do you find most interesting about
the human voice? If we're not just thinking about technically,
(37:15):
but we're thinking about huge, big picture looking down from above,
how each of us sounds are idiolect As we discussed
with doctor Charity Hudley, how each of us sounds is
different from how every other person on Earth sounds. And
that is not just for the obvious reasons, like we
all grew up in a different place, and we have
the different parents that we have, and we have the
(37:36):
different cultures we have. It's all of that, but it's
also the microadjustments that each of us makes in order
to navigate the different spaces we've been in. Who do
we want to sound like? Who do we want to
fit in? With this human desire we all have to
belong comes out in our voices. We do not unless
we have like a real uh neuro atypical quality where
(37:58):
we're not able to sort of pick up on cues
in the room, which is which is very real. If
we're not in that in that category, we all are
picking up on like oh, when I said this thing
this way, somebody gave me a weird look. I don't
like that look. I'm going to change it. So I
never say it like that again, or you know, there's
a billion of these little things that we're all doing.
(38:19):
The reason that a bunch of women say like, it's
not just like it's it's it's it's inherent to our
anatomy and it just comes up, you know, through nature.
It's obviously the nurture side of it. It's obviously if
our friends say it, we reflect back our friends because
we're empathetic humans who are always trying to do this
dance with other humans, to be understood, to communicate, to
be seen, to be loved. That is what I love
(38:41):
about the voice. That's what I love about you. All Right, guys,
we're going to take a break for one second and
we'll be right back. So we are back. We are
back with Samarrow Bay as my guest. Unpermision to speak.
I'm kidding, she's the host. Okay, So we have that's
(39:06):
what a producer is. Hungary. Okay, So what was your
most recent struggle where you felt like you lost your
voice tomorrow? What did you do or what are you
doing currently to find your voice again? And how did
you get out of the situation. It's such a beautiful question.
I don't know if the person who's asking is talking
about the literal voice or the metaphorical, because that's sort
(39:27):
of like what we've set up here. The person that
is asking, I will say, is the general manager of
a very big restaurant here in Los Angeles. A gentleman
doesn't really help with that with the idea of like
what what what sort of thing he wants from me?
I would say, because it's during the pandemic where it's
like he just has no control over what is happening
on a day to day basis and people are sort
of disrespecting his authority, I would say, Or the ranger
(39:50):
as it should go in a in a in a
setting of UM, a restaurant coming from both sides, from
the top owner who is also a sort of a brand,
down to the the staff. It's a lot. It's a lot.
I mean, how to UM seem like your authority, you
know when you do, but people aren't treating you that way. UM.
(40:12):
It reminds me of the status games in UM theater school,
the whole sort of UM joke or trick with status
if we're playing high status and low status, just even
in a game context where we're just like switch on
a you know this like really artificial thing where somebody
snaps and you switch to being low status whatever that is,
(40:34):
and feels like the trick is that we can't actually
really play high status. It has to be given to us. Right,
So some of this is like in our personal lives,
we want to find people who appreciate us, but in
our professional lives we can't always ask that of people. Right,
We're stuck with who we are working with. All we
(40:56):
can do is honestly do sort of sort of confrontations.
These affrontations like if it's if it's if it feels
like it's everybody is feeling that way to him, then
you know, maybe there's something in the way that he's
um communicating that he could really look at. But if
it is about individuals who are undermining him, there is
a chance that that I think he has to take
(41:16):
to have a private conversation and say, in order for
me to do my job, here's what I think, here's
how I need support from you. Um. That was not
the answer to his question, though I know he's asking
about me. I just really wanted to hopefully coach him
a little bit. But um, but for me, I would
say I'm going to be really honest here and say
that the way I am having trouble with my own
(41:39):
voice these days is trying to write a book during
a global pandemic. I think I had, you know, I
haven't talked about it much on on this podcast, but um,
at the end of March, I had this insane life
changing experience, um of despite the pandemic already being underway
(42:00):
in New York, being in a horrible state, so I
couldn't fly there anymore to have these publisher meetings I
was supposed to have. I nonetheless got interest from fourteen
different publishers and did zoom meetings back to back over
a three day period, and thirteen out of fourteen of
them bid. And it was this amazing bidding war over
my book proposal, which is on a lot of the
same themes as this podcast, but very much like here
(42:22):
are the patterns I've seen here here, the different sort
of categories and each chapter is a different category of
way that we can sort of get in our own
way and that we can shift out of that and um,
and I got so much love for for it, and
I had so many sales during the craziest time, and
I mean it's great, like I am so lucky a
(42:43):
clap for that, thank you, and in a dream scenario,
while I was writing this proposal all last year, UM,
my plan was to write the book while doing workshops,
while interacting, while being in communion with you know you
guys who are listening in face to face, voice to voice,
like really trying stuff out, really feeling like I'm in
(43:05):
the weeds and the trenches and whatever the metaphor is,
so that I'm this isn't just like abstract theoretical work,
and I don't have enough time to get in my
head about you know, who's out there, Hello, Hello, Hello,
and instead, you know, obviously we were at where we're at.
And so the answer to his question about how it's
been the hardest for me to use my voice is
(43:27):
somebody tweeted something um that I posted on my personal
Instagram account this last week that basically says like, if
it's been feeling really hard for you, and if your
regular coping mechanisms haven't been working, You're not alone. And
I just want to I just want to shout out that,
like I don't know how much of the drama I'm
having is just like bookwriting is hard. Hello, everybody has
said that through all of human history, or if it's
(43:50):
a book, writing is hard during a pandemic, when we're
feeling really disconnected, and also when I am trying to
write for a future that I want to live in
while not always waking up every day believing that that
future is possible. It is so part of my own
ethos and my own um, you know, brand to be
really optimistic, to be like, y'all, we are heading towards something,
(44:12):
let's do it together, right, And I don't always have
the resources in myself to like sit down at my
desk optimism forward. And that is like I'm trying to
be vulnerable and honest and like not fake it. And
also I think part of being a servant leader is
about providing hope. I mean, at least talked about that
(44:33):
like it's an obligation. I have to be hopeful, it's
an obligation. And also I'm not always hopeful. So that's
what's hard. I appreciate your authenticity and your vulnerability with
that because a lot of people are struggling with that
right now. It's a really hard time. And then on
top of it, you throw in kids, you throw in.
I mean, just so many relationships, shifts, so much claustrophobia,
(44:57):
so much angst, and so much hatred, and we got
to say, you know what, Okay, we gotta be honest
with each other and so we can get back to
that place of optimism so that we can be healthy,
so that we can still feel and shine. And it
really does start with each of us. But to know that,
like this time is just fucking hard, and it's okay
to just feel that sometimes. I really appreciate that, smorrow
(45:19):
because I know that that this isn't easy. Yeah. Well,
and I also want to say, Cat, before you go on,
that you and I have been having conversations about mental
health insomuch as it relates to this podcast and actually
connects with that lovely quote that you surpressed me with
up top about how we talk to ourselves. Right. I mean,
I am not somebody who has a history of mental
health issues. I really lucked out, you know, I really
(45:42):
lucked out, but I did not luck up. But no,
I mean I hear you. You know it's I have
discovered how rare it is. Um. I have felt very
even keeled most of my life, but like this pandemic
is bringing stuff up for everybody, because of course we're
living in this low grade ongoing christ this that really
is a crisis, and our body is feeling of the crisis,
(46:04):
even if we can convince our brain that you know,
it's not. And then you know, for those of us
who have kids, there is also this added level of like,
we have to be somewhat fully processed ourselves so that
we can create a loving enough, safe enough space for them.
And I actually wonder if that's been helpful. Like I
(46:24):
took a few days away to to do a writer's
retreat a few weeks ago, and it was actually I
actually went to a much darker place, Like I wonder
if it's actually been like keeping me in a better
spot to have to be that for my child. But
it is also an additional level of mental labor and
exhausting to not just be able to like be truly
furious when I read something that makes me furious, but
(46:45):
rather have to like instantly and not instant. I mean,
I don't obviously we we can be however honest we
want to be with our kids. I'm not I'm not
putting this on anybody else, but for me, I know
that with my five year old who's sensitive enough that
he picks up on stuff. Um, I have to just
take personal responsibility. Do I want to sit in my
fury or sit in my sadness to the extent that
(47:07):
he's then going to pick up on it and I'm
then going to have to deal with him, which is
which is what I have to say we've been dealing
with in our household. Like I suffer from depression and anxiety.
And I'm a big, big advocate of speaking honestly about
mental health. Um, it's something that people have feel shame around.
And there's no reason to feel that if we were
sick with cancer we would talk about it. So I
(47:28):
wouldn't we do the same. And some of that emotion
that I carry, I have found, you know, I wear
my emotions on my sleeve. And it's really practicing that
balance though sometimes just being quiet and sitting with that
uncomfortable feeling but not knowing at this time where you
can go run to a friend and like talk to
them and easily do that is really tough because you
become you're in your head a lot, and I just
(47:48):
just change up our scenario just like go dancing, go
doing like so much of the stuff. You know, the
coping mechanisms aren't just yoga and drinking tea and meditation,
you know. The coping mechanism for me is like seeing
for you know, doing stuff, leading, leaning into our support
system and people that lift us up. So this is
a reminder to everyone if you listen to this entire
episode to go find someone over zoom or distantly that
(48:12):
we'll we'll pick you up and hold you in the
space that you deserve. I mean, I will say that
one of one of my favorite things I've done lately
is UM in order to get me out of my
funk with uh trying to book right to like a
blank you know, blank screen with no human on the
other side. Is that kind of backtracked and did a
little bit of like who's my ideal reader? And I
(48:33):
thought of four friends who are totally like who I
have in three out of four of the cases. I've
actually coached them as well, so they know of me
as sort of you know, in in coach friend land
already the sort of nebulous zone UM and asked them
if I could sort of interview them for half an
hour and recorded and asked them, like really kind of
on the spot questions like what's your relationship to your voice?
(48:55):
And I mean I got so much out of that,
you know, the equivalent of like those of you list
sitting like getting to actually just sort of ask you
guys questions back um is connections about connecting for sure,
but also just like I tried to not talk because
I really wanted to just like have the recording be
you know, them talking in their own way, giving me
(49:16):
new ways to think about this stuff. But inevitably I
was jumping in. I mean actually did a pretty good
job of not doing it, but like inevitably I was
jumping in because we would we would like go off
on tangents where we were planning something new that made
us both excited based on what they said. And that
is like what I missed from not having like our
coworking space to go to like just the sort of
(49:36):
the surprise element of conversationsh pandemic times. Y'all. Okay, we
are going to drop another episode with way more listener
questions next week, so listen for that. And thank you
to Cat for joining me, for bantering with me and
(49:57):
cheerleading the heck out of this podcast, and of course
for doing the actual work of gathering the questions and
for you for sending them in. Thank you to Sophie
Lichterman and the team at I Heeart Radio and all
of you. We're recording this podcast at various locations around
Los Angeles on land that is the historic gathering place
(50:18):
for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit U.
S d A C dot us to learn more about
honoring Native land. Permission to Speak is a production of
I Heart Radio and Double Vision, Executive produced by Katherine
Burke Canton and Mark Canton. For more podcasts from my
Heart Radio, listen on the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Today's quote, it's from the Bible. I interviewed a woman
running for office in the election for state Senate about
how she decided to run, how she decided specifically to
sort of go public, to go from being somebody who's
you know, living a private life and not, you know,
(00:20):
putting herself out there to be seen and heard and
judged into somebody who is. And she quoted the Bible
and she said, there's the story about Esther who had
a fancy position inside the court, and the Jews were
in trouble because it's the Bible. Uh. And so Mordecai
from the Jews asked her to, you know, use her
(00:42):
position to speak to the king, and she said, I
don't have permission. And he wrote back and said, do
not think that because you were in the king's house,
you alone of all the Jews, will escape. For if
you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for
the Jews will arise from another place. But you and
your father's family will perish. And who knows but that
(01:04):
you have come to your royal position for such a
time as this. Welcome to permission to speak. The podcast
about how we talk and how we get ourselves heard
with me Samarbe. Today's guest is me just kidding but
(01:32):
sort of. My podcast producer Cat and I are doing
a mailbag episode, and um, we've broken into two halves.
For the first half, it's a lot of questions about me,
but really filling in some of the gaps for you
guys of my career path. And also I think some
really foundational stuff I believe about the voice and putting
(01:56):
the voice into context. We got so many good questions
we decided to obviously do a massive two part episode
here and part two will drop next week. And if
you don't hear your question in this one, you might
hear it in the next one. Truly, I love you, guys,
(02:17):
I love getting questions, and I really hope more than
anything that this episode you're about to hear in the
next one are helpful, either in specific tips that you
can apply to what's going on with you, or in
the very fact that this conversation is happening. That there
is so much to say and to discover about our
(02:41):
voices and our sense of power and how those two
things dance together. And I'm really left feeling like the
answer always besides giving ourselves permission, and in relation to
giving ourselves permission is that we need each other, and
we need each other to to listen better to each
other and to resonate and to raise your hand and
(03:04):
say that resonates with me. You're not alone, and to
keep each other a high five for speaking up even
when you know our voices are shaky, and even when
we're going to rock the boat because boat rocking is
really scary, but um, maybe the boat's gonna cap size
and maybe we'll be okay. This is mail Bag Part one.
(03:33):
Good morning, Samara, Hello Catherine. I would actually, if you
don't mind, just like to hog the mic for a
second and open up with one of my favorite quotes
and maybe you could guess who says it. How our
voice sounds has everything to do with how our inner
voice sounds. To change the world, we must first change
(03:53):
how we talk to ourselves. That is the Samara bay
is m if ever. I've heard it and is a
simiar vism, and it's so relevant now. It's relevant always,
but now more than ever. I'm really thinking about this
because the more you know, until I launched this podcast,
I was really working one on one like that was
my jam and there is a future in which I'm working,
(04:15):
you know, one on many, And obviously, if there wasn't
a pandemic um, i'd already be kind of underway with that.
I had a bunch of workshops like scheduled for the
spring tier. You know, this might not be obvious, but
part of the deal with working one on one versus
working on one on many is that the job suddenly
becomes not dealing with the person who's in front of
(04:36):
me with all of their uniqueness, but rather what are
the big pattern themes that are applicable for all of us?
And that's actually been a huge shift because, as you know,
as a one on one coach, I didn't actually have
to think. I would notice like, oh, I get you're
going to fit into this category. I see you in
unique individual human but also like you're going to fit
(04:57):
into this category. But now I have to be really
intentional about, like what are the categories so that I
can lead the conversation and sort of allow people to
see themselves in those categories. It's like a whole different
mindset um. But yes, one of the things that comes
up all the time, and that I realized I didn't
necessarily think about when I was coaching one on one.
But I'm thinking about a lot now. Is that you know,
(05:19):
permission to speak. It is partly about the speaking, but
it's so much about the permission and that has to
do with how we talk to ourselves. It really does.
And I want to just backtrack a little bit and
say congratulations to you for many things. This podcast has
gone through many a season since we first pitched pitched
this to ihearted. Um. I mean the last time we
(05:40):
recorded our first mail Bag episode, I was sitting in
my car, you were sitting in your your house, and
we were like, we're in the middle of this thing
right now. We can't see each other, but like it'll
be a couple of weeks and then we'll just, you know,
get back to it. Well cut cut a couple of
months now, and we're still in the same situation. I'd
like to open up with this from a listener. She says,
(06:03):
all of my life, I've had people tell me that
I'm too loud, that I speak too fast or too harshly,
and I feel seen by everything you discussed in your interviews.
Sometimes I have to pause the podcast and sit down
to think for a minute, because you really lay out
and point to a lot of the issues that I've had,
the things that I've been feeling but I can't really
identify with. And so it's nice to finally have someone
(06:24):
understand and to have a community that understands. I love that. Yeah. Yeah,
you know, what can I say? I mean, you really
get it. You get it. I really do feel like
you are. You're kind of crushing the game over there.
We have a variety of guests that have come on,
and you're really connecting with people in a time where
(06:45):
it's really hard to stand up and use your voice
or or maybe not for some, but it's a very
very uh bonkers time. Is that the appropriate term to you?
I think that's the scientific term. Yeah, And I'm just
this podcast. I mean, you were in Good Housekeeping number
eleven for like the top twenty podcast. I mean, this
is a huge, huge moment for people to stand up
(07:07):
and use their voices to get what they want, to
feel heard and to feel seen. And I found I mean,
part of what that letter that you just read makes
me think of is that, like, yes, this is about
using our voices, but it's also just about feeling like
people get us. With all of the drama that does
come up with our voices, Like, we aren't going to
solve all of it in you know, in this episode.
(07:30):
But I mean, you know, even in the doing this podcast,
you know, listening to a podcast episode does not necessarily
solve every one of your guys, you know, drama with
like what's going on with you and what mean people
or you know, whatever thoughtless people say to you. But
to know that there's a community of people who get it,
I think is actually part of the solution because we can't,
you know, affect other people's reactions, but we can't affect
(07:51):
how we process it. We haven't seen each other in
person since your birthday drive by a few months ago
in May and a lovely day it was. But how
you doing? How you doing over there? I'm okay, loaded question,
I'm okay, Yeah, I'm okay. I mean it's been a lot. Um,
you know, I feel like everybody is either overworked or
(08:13):
underworked right now. Um. We're recording this the day after
I did um a ask an expert video for Create
and Cultivate, and it was such an honor to be
on their platform because it's such a huge platform and
it's so many you know, like minded women. I mean,
I like to say that part of my dream client
(08:34):
is women on a mission and create and cultivate is
all about women trying to build the careers of their dreams,
which inevitably for many of us, involves something that also
feels like it's good for the planet. It's good for
you know, the soul. It's purpose driven, as people say,
quote unquote purpose driven. But I will say that doing
that version of I g Live, where I had thirty
(08:57):
minutes and I really had like a tight thirty of
content and I was using their slides um, which is
a really gorgeous like technological you know, bonus um. I
don't feel like I actually killed it in as much
of a way as I wanted to, because I'm such
an interactive person. I mean, I'm such an extrovert. I
get my energy from other people, and it didn't set
(09:20):
me up to do that. And you know this is
I sort of bring this up because I've been sitting
with it um, not to actually be hard on myself,
but to like properly post mortem, because obviously any chance
any of us have to speak publicly is a chance
to think about, like, how are we making an impact?
Like what is it to speak publicly? And partly I
(09:41):
feel like check, check check. I did what I wanted
to do. And partly I'm like, oh, there were new
challenges I was not ready for, and you know, one
of them is that there was I was getting comments
the entire time, but because I had such a tight
you know, amount of time and and and a lot
of content I wanted to get through, I wasn't giving
myself permission to stop and read the comments, and thus
(10:03):
I was feeling disconnected from my audience. And I'm not
at my best that way. So I feel like that
is something that I that I woke up with this morning.
But also that like every chance I get, whether it's
on the podcast or I'm doing you know, much looser
and more fun for me, I g lives on my
own social feed with you guys, uh, is like another chance,
(10:24):
another chance to just keep working on what it is
to be authentically ourselves in front of a microphone or
in front of other humans. I mean, I kind of
like to joke that I'm patient zero. I'm so with
everybody else here. Yes, I have expertise in a lot
of aspects of this work, but also I have not
actually been a person who has been seen and heard
(10:45):
by lots of people until literally February when we launched
this podcast. I recently was listening to Lisa Nichols, who's
an amazing inspirational, transformational speaker, and she uses this term
servant leadership, this idea that as leaders are job is
to be of service, right. I very much want to
be in that tradition, and I also want to be
(11:06):
really honest about the fact that, like the time is,
as my podcast producer says, bonkers and um And one
of my favorite things about um Viv Groscop not when
she was on my podcast, but the thing that I
told you guys to go listen to her her Zoom
her how to Own the Zoom YouTube thing is that
she said that there are no experts in how to
(11:26):
function during a pandemic, and anybody who says that they are,
you know, are full of it. And I really want
to just honor that you had mentioned a Roomy quote
that I just I love. Oh my god, Yes, I
posted this on on Instagram. It says, the quieter you become,
the more you're able to hear. By Roomy and Um
(11:47):
I wrote after permission to not speak is often just
as hard to give ourselves. Maybe it's people pleasing or
perfectionism or the hustle, but we feel like we need
to have the answers and now. And I said, I
commit to no more answers today. Uh, it's really hard.
It's really hard to because also then when somebody asks
(12:08):
something of us, whether it's our child or you know,
a podcast listener, um, you know, producer, we all want
to be we all want to be. Yeah, totally right.
The day that I that I said I commit to
know more questions or no more answers, um cat called
me to like talk through some decisions and I was like,
I don't. I mean, you know, like modern life, there
are like certain requirements, but you know what, this is
(12:30):
an honest raw time, Like why should we in life
not be able to say I can't do this right
now or I don't want I'm working on it. I'm
actually really I'm really actively and I would love all
of us to be on this kick. Like people pleasing,
the other side of it is that when we don't
please somebody, then we have to sit with what that
feels like. It's not like they're the same regardless of
whether or not we people please, they're not. That's why
(12:50):
we people please. We are used to doing that mental
labor so that people like us and so that people
so that everything goes smoothly. And you know, I mean,
I'm just because I'm always all about the gray areas.
If we don't people please, if we actually say no
when we want to say no instead of yes when
it would be easier for the other people, then suddenly
(13:11):
there is blowback. And then is that blowback going to
require as much mental labor to smooth over? Because if so,
like I'm not incentivized to stop people pleasing, you know,
this is like this is the actual My my dad,
God Blessed sent me this amazing New York Times piece
uh last week about um people pleasing in the age
of the pandemic, and it came down to, like, I mean,
(13:32):
I I just, oh God, I feel this so hard.
It truly came down to stuff like if women historically
and traditionally and in our own lives really uh are
a little bit you know, more um likely to be
people pleasing, then like we literally are putting ourselves a
danger because if someone is less concerned about the pandemic
(13:54):
than we are, and says, come to brunch, it would
make me feel so much better. Then we're like literally
think life and death and also thinking people pleasing and
trying to balance like relationships versus taking care of ourselves.
And this relationship versus self is this like really deep
psychological you know thing. I mean, men are supposed to
(14:14):
be better at taking care of themselves and women are
supposed to be better at relationships, and like so much
of society is built to support that. And if we,
you know, stop playing by the rules, how big are
the pieces that we're going to have to pick up?
We're all on this roller coaster of emotions and it
doesn't all align at the same time. I had an
experience with a friend um the morning after we had
(14:35):
protesting in our neighborhood in West Hollywood, and she really
after I called to check in with her, said simply,
I can't talk to you right now. And at first
I was a little taken aback or offended by that reply,
and then I realized, that's fucking awesome that she said
that to me because she just couldn't do it. And
I really actually appreciate it. And I've been trying to
practice and emulate just that myself without feeling like I'm
(14:58):
doing something wrong in regards to this pandemic. You know,
how do you ask people without feeling is as I
guess my my question for you, and how do you
ask people without feeling UM like you're pointing fingers or
you're going to judge them if they are wearing masks,
if they're getting tested, if their social distancing, who they've seen.
I think the well two things. One is that this time,
(15:23):
the fact that this that a mask seems both totally mundane,
like it's just a piece of fabric, and also totally
profound because it's about you know, public health on a
global scale. UM is confusing for a lot of people, Like, truly,
how do we talk to the trivial aspect of it
being a piece of fabric or do we talk to
the profound aspect of it being about you know, life
(15:45):
and death. So I just want to honor first that,
like that's what That's partly why UM talking to people
about this is confusing. I think our brains like don't
know if it's a big thing or a little thing.
But the other part of it is that if we
I think I've been working since literally morning, I woke
up in November whatever that was the Wednesday. I've been
(16:05):
working on um allowing myself to be the alarmist person
in my life, even though my nature is very much
to be low maintenance and to be laid back and
to be a not early adopter. I have been trying
two see all of those things as um ways of
(16:29):
kind of hiding and protecting myself, and that being alarmist
is much more vulnerable. It's much more vulnerable to say
I'm going to take this really seriously before other people do.
But I think it's actually a leadership move, and especially
if we're thinking about in terms of servant leadership, which
is not like my theme, you know, if you're the
leader of your family, which is not to say other
(16:49):
people can't be you know, high mark, but like you know,
but just to say, like in what in what circles
can we can we make a leadership move. The leadership
move in this case is to say it is inconvenient
to ask for what I need, but I'm going to
do it anyway, and I'm going to work on that
muscle and I'm gonna be really loving in the process.
So this is not about shaming people or judging people.
It's about being of use, of servitude to the people
(17:13):
that you love, in this case your family. Right, So
when we're asking before we meet up, I just need
to know what your protocols have been. We can absolutely
say that with a without sounding you know, judge, you're shaming.
We can have that question in our head. Oh god,
am I sounding this way? But let it let it rest,
Let it rest. Right. This is about tone, and our
tone can be as loving and forward, you know, forward energy.
(17:34):
I like doing a physical gesture of like the care
bear stair here, you know, like I love out saying
saying you know. And we can also either apologize, question
mark you know, quotes, or just like just like signpost.
But we can say I'm going to ask a tough
question and I don't want to come across as accusatory.
We can say that, or we don't have to. You
(17:55):
could practice not saying it, but but maybe start out
by saying, but we can signpost like I'm about to
have a tough conversation with you, and ultimately we get
to sort of not say that out loud and just
think it in our heads. But it's useful to do
that so we know what kind of frame we're going into.
And actually, another Lisa Nichols thing is about this idea
of care frontation instead of confrontation, and it's a you know,
(18:15):
I think it's a bit of a h not rolls
off the tongue type of a word. But you can
anybody look this up. It's it's not just Lisa Nichols.
I think it was on an OPRAH show back and
like the nineties. So you know, the idea of care
frontation instead of confrontation is that we are going into
a difficult conversation with the goal in mind of keeping
the relationship intact by the end. So what does each
(18:37):
of us do each look in the theater world, Yeah,
we all know how to we we use this term
fight positively. We all know how in real life to
try to get the other person. I shouldn't say we
all know. We all know that that the dream is
that we get through the tough conversation and the relationship
remains in intact. But the way to do that is
(18:58):
to be really intentional about it. I'm gonna ask a
tough question and I'd love your support, And then the
tough question is let me know how, and you can
think through like is this so, is this a way
to ask this question that's gonna that would make me
feel good? You know, you can think through this ahead
of time. You can either go super direct, right have
you guys been wearing masks? What's been your protocol? Or
(19:18):
you can say, I know it's been really hard. We're
all feeling such fatigue, and I wouldn't be you know,
I'm not. I'm not here to judge you if you
guys have been you know, being loose about it. But
I just need to know for the safety of my family.
I'm so sorry. But there you go. Or we could
flip it and we could say, you tell me how
this sounds. I'm learning how to use my voice during
(19:39):
this pandemic, and my family and I live in an
apartment complex and we see a few people a day,
and this is where we're at, and I want to
let you know where I'm at. So can you let
me know where you're at? Completely? I think the I
think you know in a way, the least um, the
less drama that we can add to it. The less
drama the other person is going to hear in our
voice and and respond with you know, yeah, it's science.
(20:03):
You know like it it isn't. It isn't, but you
know what I mean, Like the conversation can be about
like what protocols are you taking? What protocols am I taking?
Are we a good compatible fit for hanging out? Right now?
You know this is like a weird ass time, y'all. Okay,
we're gonna take a quick break and come back with
more and maybe even get to listener questions. Okay, we're back, cat,
(20:34):
what do we got? So we're gonna start from more
of like a bio section about tomorrow. People have a
lot of questions about you, and I think you've had
such incredible guests on and have such a variety of
elements to who you are and parts of your life.
So let's just start from the top. What exactly do
you do? Samarrow? Is our first question? And how did
you get into this field? God? I mean, where to
(20:57):
where to begin? Um? I decided when I was ten.
I'm not actually gonna tell you guys the day by
day since I was ten, but the story begins. I decided,
literally I remember the day when I was ten, that
I was going to be a Shakespearean actress. That's so
funny because one of my next questions is what did
you want to be when you grow up? I went
(21:19):
to an amazing Shakespeare festival when I was ten, and
then again every summer after that in my hometown of
Santa Cruz, California. Shout out and they did. They had
actors who were jobbed in from New York who were
members of the Union. It was like really high quality, smart,
often modern productions of Shakespeare. I remember a production of
(21:41):
the Tempest that was very Gilligan's Island and the soundtrack
was Blondie, so like it wasn't just you know, old
staid Shakespeare. I was like, I see what they're doing.
By the way, I was fifteen at that time, so
that that one I wasn't ten, but that one I
remember just being like, I see what they're doing. I
see how shakespea beer is not just somebody who lived
(22:03):
four hundred years ago and you know, bully him for
getting lots of words that sounded pretty and stringing them together,
but rather that Shakespeare is an opportunity for us, in
every one of our lives and every season of our lives,
to um revisit ancient yet modern um ideas about how
(22:23):
humans behave and what it is to like exist together.
And I think actually in a way that that has,
like it's so beautiful influenced my life because you know,
the idea of using Shakespeare, like it's not just Shakespeare
in and of itself, but it's using Shakespeare to help
us process our modern world. I'm all about using now
fill in the blank, anything to help us process our
modern world. Like that's kind of I don't want to, like,
(22:45):
I don't actually care about the voice except in so
much as it helps us process our modern world. You know,
like nothing really for me matters in and of itself.
Oh my god, that that's horrible. Care about nothing, No,
But I mean context matters, right, I mean it's so
it's profoundly um valuable to me to think about it
that way. Um. But yeah, So when I was ten,
(23:06):
hadn't cotton to those thoughts yet. But I was like,
I don't know what it is, but I want to
do that. And I it took me really till I
was like thirty to figure out what it is. Part
in between when I was ten and when I was thirty,
I thought it was act and I thought it was
two regional Shakespeare be a nomadic actress never get married,
never have money. Just like I really clearly super romanticized
(23:28):
this um and in a way, I kind of did
everything right in order to be an unpaid Shakespearean actress,
by the way, that's what I mean. And that entailed
going to New York getting a master's degree in acting,
you know, a three year acting program where I was
doing like voice and speech and yoga and um modern
as well as Shakespeare all day every day. You know,
I really, like check check check, was a very good
(23:51):
student of the world to get this thing done, and
ended up in New York, got a lot of auditions
at like literally Shakespeare in the Park in New York City.
I mean, it was like the thing, and it just
never happened. And it's not to say that it wouldn't
if I hadn't stayed for another ten years. But I
saw the writing on the wall. I'm a little weird looking.
(24:12):
That's that's an actor thing to say. But no, like literally,
especially especially in my twenties, but when it was just
an earlier era, uh no one quite knew to do
with a ethnically ambiguous person. Everybody was like, that's so
in right now. But literally then they wanted specificity for
roles and in big ambiguity is the opposite. And uh
and I was a little like um, I was a
(24:33):
little more of like a character actor despite being gorgeous.
So no oneknywe to do with me, Thanks Scott. But
this idea of quote to what no one knew what
to do with me. I don't mean to say that
to put myself down. I mean I literally was told
that over and over and over. And that was what
my acting experience was like. And this is so cliche
that I kind of skipped this part when I talked
to people about this. But my twenties in New York,
(24:54):
when I was living like my dream, both in terms
of actually doing the thing and also in terms of like,
oh my god, I got so many free tickets to
Broadway shows. I had so many friends. I was never sleeping,
I was drinking so much red wine. I was like,
I was like, I was like making it. I was
a cocktail waitress. I was I did a billion odd
jobs to get by. But I also in between all
(25:17):
that was getting so much free stuff and was like
hacking the system in terms of like finding the fun
in New York City. But I just could not get
paid to act, period, and I could not get representation
that was really, you know, worthy of the training and
all this stuff I had done and I got. I
had comment after comment after comment. I'll never forget this one.
(25:39):
I did to pay to play, where you you know,
pay to get to meet somebody who could possibly bring
you on as a as a client, uh for like
an agent or manager, I don't remember what he was.
And he's he looked at my head shot and he said,
you're wearing glossy lips stick in your head shot and
I was like, yeah, I like it, it's my look.
He's like, you got an m f A in acting,
(25:59):
you don't need to wear glossy lipstick. Oh no, he's happening. Also,
then I moved to l A, where everybody was like
literally then I got told when I moved to l A,
take the m f A off your resume. No one
cares that you got trained and if anything, I could
work against you, so you know acting god. And now
flash forward even more. Now everyone's wearing masks and wants
to get botox and this part of their face like
(26:21):
speaking of what did you study though? Did you study
acting underground? Undergrad? I could it's not a thing. I
went to Princeton undergrad and I was an English major.
But uh and and Princeton is super thank you. That
it's very I mean conservative was the word I was
going to say. I have all kinds of things I
can say about this, the social life there, but no,
what I was gonna say is that it's very conservative
(26:42):
in terms of like there are very few majors you
can major in. It's really like we do English economics, philosophy,
you know, it's like these really kind of standard You
can't do interdisciplinary work. At least you couldn't back when
I went there. Um and so I was an English major.
But there's five programs. Creative Writing is one of them. Uh,
focuses on different aspects of English literature. Uh. And mine
(27:06):
was program five, the fifth one, which is Dramatic Literature.
Which I say because what really happened is that I
got to just read plays and get a degree, and
in my downtime I was doing what I was doing
like six shows e here, I mean producing and acting
and doing all the things. So it was an amazing
it was an amazing place to go for that. It
didn't necessarily like launched me out into the acting world.
(27:28):
You know, I ended up having to get the m
f A and feeling like I needed to film the caps.
But all of this is to say that happened. And
when I got out of grad school I was twenty six,
I moved right to New York City. I tried to,
you know, make this acting thing happen, like I was
really really good at hustling. But uh, right away I
had some mentors in the dialect coaching world who I
(27:51):
had met in the gap year between college and grad
school when I was in New York as well, who
just started to throw me clients. I mean I was
not at a dialect coach in my mind, I was like, thanks,
I'm an actor. But I knew that, like obviously dialect
coaching on the side was going to be a better
way to make money than you know, just waiting tables.
(28:12):
So I said yes. And it really took me years
and moving to l A and you know, circumstances changing
before I realized that that is actually much more where
my strength lies. And then there was also this transition
into coaching not just actors but kind of everyone, which
has happened really just since I mean the election and
that's where we turned the page. It's funny because I
(28:36):
actually started my young career as an intern at Shakespeare
in Company in Lenox, Massachusetts and did not go the
same path as you. And I'm like, wow, it's like
sliding doors. But I will say I will say that
I think my superpower is because of the probably the
English major neists, but also this, you know, really lifelong
(28:59):
Shakespeare understanding. I was going to say appreciation. I've gone
through phases where I'm like enough sucking Shakespeare, but my
Shakespeare understanding. Um. And also the years that I've worked
with actors on various scripts. I mean, in between working
on big projects, I was doing like one on one
coaching for auditions, and it would just be like during
pilot season, you know, it would be like twenty in
(29:19):
a week. Um. My secret skill is in understanding what's
happening with real humans under the surface of the lines
on the page, and that actually translates to real humans
as well as as well as the as well as
the characters that were written by writers. But really being
able to understand, like if the line of text is wow,
(29:40):
that's so exciting, being able to go okay, so that
person is trying to placate this other person, but they're
not really in it. And you can tell because of
the line before, or you can tell because of the
tone that's written in and helping first of all foreigners
with that kind of really subtle understanding of the the
you know, nuance of of own UM, but even helping Americans.
(30:02):
I mean, when we're looking at words on a page,
we can get really myopic and and kind of just
see the words. And I'm here on the side side coaching,
being like, but here's how human behavior works. So what
I find so interesting about you is that you have
such a thoughtful connection between the heart and the brain
and the mind. And maybe that's because you grew up
(30:23):
in a home with UM people that are incredibly brilliant. UM.
I love your parents awesome, and I know you've done
some really awesome things with them. But did the order
that you learned or fell in love with the voice?
Is it more mechanical or more and like mental, more
deeply rooted in your heart. That's such a such a
lovely question, I am. I loved learning about the International
(30:48):
Phonetic Alphabet, which is the more technical stuff that I
know about. UM. It's fascinating. Tell tell us about this,
so you know, we can talk about technically a few
different ways. One of the things that's that's technical about
the voice is literally the anatomy. I actually never learned
about that. That's why I was awesome to have Dr
Gupta on And actually, as I'm writing parts of my
(31:10):
book that require a really nuanced understanding of like how
the how breath works in the body, I'm having to
go to resources. For sure, I do not have that
living inside of me. But the other way we can
talk about technical is the stuff that's kind of from
like the neck up. This is sort of the joke
of like what articulation is versus voice work is really
(31:31):
just like what's happening in the mouth. And even that
I don't I don't actually linger that much. In the
anatomical people talk about oral posture, which is this fancy
term for like where your voice is placed in your mouth.
It's not I don't think that way. But the International
Phonetic Alphabet is sort of like learning music. It is
annoying to learn music theory, but then you can play music.
(31:53):
It is annoying to learn all the symbols of the
International Phonetic alphabet. But then you can decode anybody's accent
in the entire your world. So cool. I don't want
to name names, but I have a friend who is
an English teacher and English is not her first language,
and she wasn't making the hard G sound happen in
(32:14):
the word English. So every time she was introducing a
new program, she was saying English English, there's an n
G sound M. It's a single symbol in international for that,
a alphabet, the n G M. And then she was
going from the UMM into the L English English, and
I could hear it and instantly be like, oh, there's
a hard G that happens after the um in googog
(32:37):
English when we actually pronounced that word, when when Native
American speakers pronounced that word, and she was leaving it
out and trying to make this really amazing like energy
into L happened, which I don't know, I don't think
maybe happens in English. A few people actually wrote in
about how did you figure out what you wanted to
do as a career. I'm feeling lost, and I think
what you said. You know, you being a results driven person,
and a lot of people are when we're trying to
(32:59):
discover and figure out that, and you can't have that
in front of you, to just feel that passion and
to tap into what you love. I mean it sounds
so cliche and like we're really lucky to be able
to even you know, have the opportunity to live that way.
But I think if we can connect the brain and
the heart like you do and really just move forward
and find find curiosity and what we're exploring in life,
(33:21):
I don't know, I think that's like such I think
it's confusing too, because there's such a um there's such
a culture of follow your passion, find your dream, don't
let anybody tell you know, and that keeps that makes us,
That makes it very hard for us to as room.
He says, be quiet and maybe here well that too,
but to be quiet in here because sometimes you know,
when you're ten and you decide what you want to
(33:41):
do in twenty years later, you're still fighting for it.
There is definitely a way you can talk to yourself
and say that's right, you're brave, you're courageous, you're not
let us listening to know. And there's another part of
you that can say, um, maybe when I was ten,
I didn't actually know what I wanted to do with
my life, and I am allowed to change and pick it.
And I will tell one story. When I was thirty one,
(34:04):
I had just gotten to l A and I got
this really fancy agent for TV and film dialect work,
who I still have. She's amazing, going a little crazy
and the pandemic because everything is shut down. God bluss um.
I did my first onset coaching. It was a little
movie that not a lot of people saw, perfect for me.
(34:24):
But I was being paid more than like everybody else
on set because it was sag ultra low budget, which
if anybody listening and knows, means like everyone on set
is getting paid a hundred bucks a day. I mean
it's like no, you know, uh. But I got a
little more than that and was like, oh my god,
I'm living the dream. And I was just to set
the scene. At the time, when I was thirty ish,
newly in l A. I was a personal assisting for
(34:47):
a celebrity who is a difficult human be trying to
make acting happen now on this coast with also no
representation and trying to get taken seriously, which was you know,
painful of the soul and then three suddenly dialect coaching
on my first movie, getting paid more than anyone else.
(35:09):
Uh Billy Crystal was on set and the director at
the beginning of the process was clearly like, who is
this smiley, weird girl hanging out with my lead actor? Why?
Like who led her on our set? And by the end,
I remember we were doing post production where it was
the actor and in front of a microphone and the
(35:29):
director and me and like the script supervisor alone in
a room trying to get some post production means we
were fixing sound stuff after we had actually finished shooting
the movie, and the actor did what he needed to
do into the microphone and the director goes, good for me, Samara,
is that good for you? And I cannot tell you
that was in a way when it all clicked, And
(35:52):
I was like, trying to find people in this town
to take me seriously as an actor is not worth it.
When I can have this feeling of being a thirty
year old girl with this toll you know, director man
with this like huge persona deferring to me, And I
(36:12):
was like, that's when I realized that ten year old
me didn't know what but she was doing. I mean, god,
bless right. I had to go through it and it
made me better. And the way that I tell that
story about but when I was ten is on purpose
because I said that I wanted to do that, and
I didn't know what that was. And it turns out
that what that was quote unquote, that wasn't acting. It
was some other thing that has to do with when
(36:32):
you're in an audience and everybody's breathing together, and a
story is being told and people are being moved, and
there are so many different puzzle pieces to put together
that image. You don't have to act to do that.
As it turns out, I can help an actor tell
the story in a way that feels more embodied and
more real, and help a director feel like I'm helping
(36:54):
that actor tell the story using language they don't know.
How often directors don't know how to talk to actors
the way I do, which is not to say that
I'm encroaching on director's territory, but it's to say that
we're all working together as a team to tell the
story that's ultimately going to make that audience all breathed
together as one. Well. That was one of our Another
listener's questions was what do you find most interesting about
the human voice? If we're not just thinking about technically,
(37:15):
but we're thinking about huge, big picture looking down from above,
how each of us sounds are idiolect As we discussed
with doctor Charity Hudley, how each of us sounds is
different from how every other person on Earth sounds. And
that is not just for the obvious reasons, like we
all grew up in a different place, and we have
the different parents that we have, and we have the
(37:36):
different cultures we have. It's all of that, but it's
also the microadjustments that each of us makes in order
to navigate the different spaces we've been in. Who do
we want to sound like? Who do we want to
fit in? With this human desire we all have to
belong comes out in our voices. We do not unless
we have like a real uh neuro atypical quality where
(37:58):
we're not able to sort of pick up on cues
in the room, which is which is very real. If
we're not in that in that category, we all are
picking up on like oh, when I said this thing
this way, somebody gave me a weird look. I don't
like that look. I'm going to change it. So I
never say it like that again, or you know, there's
a billion of these little things that we're all doing.
(38:19):
The reason that a bunch of women say like, it's
not just like it's it's it's it's inherent to our
anatomy and it just comes up, you know, through nature.
It's obviously the nurture side of it. It's obviously if
our friends say it, we reflect back our friends because
we're empathetic humans who are always trying to do this
dance with other humans, to be understood, to communicate, to
be seen, to be loved. That is what I love
(38:41):
about the voice. That's what I love about you. All Right, guys,
we're going to take a break for one second and
we'll be right back. So we are back. We are
back with Samarrow Bay as my guest. Unpermision to speak.
I'm kidding, she's the host. Okay, So we have that's
(39:06):
what a producer is. Hungary. Okay, So what was your
most recent struggle where you felt like you lost your
voice tomorrow? What did you do or what are you
doing currently to find your voice again? And how did
you get out of the situation. It's such a beautiful question.
I don't know if the person who's asking is talking
about the literal voice or the metaphorical, because that's sort
(39:27):
of like what we've set up here. The person that
is asking, I will say, is the general manager of
a very big restaurant here in Los Angeles. A gentleman
doesn't really help with that with the idea of like
what what what sort of thing he wants from me?
I would say, because it's during the pandemic where it's
like he just has no control over what is happening
on a day to day basis and people are sort
of disrespecting his authority, I would say, Or the ranger
(39:50):
as it should go in a in a in a
setting of UM, a restaurant coming from both sides, from
the top owner who is also a sort of a brand,
down to the the staff. It's a lot. It's a lot.
I mean, how to UM seem like your authority, you
know when you do, but people aren't treating you that way. UM.
(40:12):
It reminds me of the status games in UM theater school,
the whole sort of UM joke or trick with status
if we're playing high status and low status, just even
in a game context where we're just like switch on
a you know this like really artificial thing where somebody
snaps and you switch to being low status whatever that is,
(40:34):
and feels like the trick is that we can't actually
really play high status. It has to be given to us. Right,
So some of this is like in our personal lives,
we want to find people who appreciate us, but in
our professional lives we can't always ask that of people. Right,
We're stuck with who we are working with. All we
(40:56):
can do is honestly do sort of sort of confrontations.
These affrontations like if it's if it's if it feels
like it's everybody is feeling that way to him, then
you know, maybe there's something in the way that he's
um communicating that he could really look at. But if
it is about individuals who are undermining him, there is
a chance that that I think he has to take
(41:16):
to have a private conversation and say, in order for
me to do my job, here's what I think, here's
how I need support from you. Um. That was not
the answer to his question, though I know he's asking
about me. I just really wanted to hopefully coach him
a little bit. But um, but for me, I would
say I'm going to be really honest here and say
that the way I am having trouble with my own
(41:39):
voice these days is trying to write a book during
a global pandemic. I think I had, you know, I
haven't talked about it much on on this podcast, but um,
at the end of March, I had this insane life
changing experience, um of despite the pandemic already being underway
(42:00):
in New York, being in a horrible state, so I
couldn't fly there anymore to have these publisher meetings I
was supposed to have. I nonetheless got interest from fourteen
different publishers and did zoom meetings back to back over
a three day period, and thirteen out of fourteen of
them bid. And it was this amazing bidding war over
my book proposal, which is on a lot of the
same themes as this podcast, but very much like here
(42:22):
are the patterns I've seen here here, the different sort
of categories and each chapter is a different category of
way that we can sort of get in our own
way and that we can shift out of that and um,
and I got so much love for for it, and
I had so many sales during the craziest time, and
I mean it's great, like I am so lucky a
(42:43):
clap for that, thank you, and in a dream scenario,
while I was writing this proposal all last year, UM,
my plan was to write the book while doing workshops,
while interacting, while being in communion with you know you
guys who are listening in face to face, voice to voice,
like really trying stuff out, really feeling like I'm in
(43:05):
the weeds and the trenches and whatever the metaphor is,
so that I'm this isn't just like abstract theoretical work,
and I don't have enough time to get in my
head about you know, who's out there, Hello, Hello, Hello,
and instead, you know, obviously we were at where we're at.
And so the answer to his question about how it's
been the hardest for me to use my voice is
(43:27):
somebody tweeted something um that I posted on my personal
Instagram account this last week that basically says like, if
it's been feeling really hard for you, and if your
regular coping mechanisms haven't been working, You're not alone. And
I just want to I just want to shout out that,
like I don't know how much of the drama I'm
having is just like bookwriting is hard. Hello, everybody has
said that through all of human history, or if it's
(43:50):
a book, writing is hard during a pandemic, when we're
feeling really disconnected, and also when I am trying to
write for a future that I want to live in
while not always waking up every day believing that that
future is possible. It is so part of my own
ethos and my own um, you know, brand to be
really optimistic, to be like, y'all, we are heading towards something,
(44:12):
let's do it together, right, And I don't always have
the resources in myself to like sit down at my
desk optimism forward. And that is like I'm trying to
be vulnerable and honest and like not fake it. And
also I think part of being a servant leader is
about providing hope. I mean, at least talked about that
(44:33):
like it's an obligation. I have to be hopeful, it's
an obligation. And also I'm not always hopeful. So that's
what's hard. I appreciate your authenticity and your vulnerability with
that because a lot of people are struggling with that
right now. It's a really hard time. And then on
top of it, you throw in kids, you throw in.
I mean, just so many relationships, shifts, so much claustrophobia,
(44:57):
so much angst, and so much hatred, and we got
to say, you know what, Okay, we gotta be honest
with each other and so we can get back to
that place of optimism so that we can be healthy,
so that we can still feel and shine. And it
really does start with each of us. But to know that,
like this time is just fucking hard, and it's okay
to just feel that sometimes. I really appreciate that, smorrow
(45:19):
because I know that that this isn't easy. Yeah. Well,
and I also want to say, Cat, before you go on,
that you and I have been having conversations about mental
health insomuch as it relates to this podcast and actually
connects with that lovely quote that you surpressed me with
up top about how we talk to ourselves. Right. I mean,
I am not somebody who has a history of mental
health issues. I really lucked out, you know, I really
(45:42):
lucked out, but I did not luck up. But no,
I mean I hear you. You know it's I have
discovered how rare it is. Um. I have felt very
even keeled most of my life, but like this pandemic
is bringing stuff up for everybody, because of course we're
living in this low grade ongoing christ this that really
is a crisis, and our body is feeling of the crisis,
(46:04):
even if we can convince our brain that you know,
it's not. And then you know, for those of us
who have kids, there is also this added level of like,
we have to be somewhat fully processed ourselves so that
we can create a loving enough, safe enough space for them.
And I actually wonder if that's been helpful. Like I
(46:24):
took a few days away to to do a writer's
retreat a few weeks ago, and it was actually I
actually went to a much darker place, Like I wonder
if it's actually been like keeping me in a better
spot to have to be that for my child. But
it is also an additional level of mental labor and
exhausting to not just be able to like be truly
furious when I read something that makes me furious, but
(46:45):
rather have to like instantly and not instant. I mean,
I don't obviously we we can be however honest we
want to be with our kids. I'm not I'm not
putting this on anybody else, but for me, I know
that with my five year old who's sensitive enough that
he picks up on stuff. Um, I have to just
take personal responsibility. Do I want to sit in my
fury or sit in my sadness to the extent that
(47:07):
he's then going to pick up on it and I'm
then going to have to deal with him, which is
which is what I have to say we've been dealing
with in our household. Like I suffer from depression and anxiety.
And I'm a big, big advocate of speaking honestly about
mental health. Um, it's something that people have feel shame around.
And there's no reason to feel that if we were
sick with cancer we would talk about it. So I
(47:28):
wouldn't we do the same. And some of that emotion
that I carry, I have found, you know, I wear
my emotions on my sleeve. And it's really practicing that
balance though sometimes just being quiet and sitting with that
uncomfortable feeling but not knowing at this time where you
can go run to a friend and like talk to
them and easily do that is really tough because you
become you're in your head a lot, and I just
(47:48):
just change up our scenario just like go dancing, go
doing like so much of the stuff. You know, the
coping mechanisms aren't just yoga and drinking tea and meditation,
you know. The coping mechanism for me is like seeing
for you know, doing stuff, leading, leaning into our support
system and people that lift us up. So this is
a reminder to everyone if you listen to this entire
episode to go find someone over zoom or distantly that
(48:12):
we'll we'll pick you up and hold you in the
space that you deserve. I mean, I will say that
one of one of my favorite things I've done lately
is UM in order to get me out of my
funk with uh trying to book right to like a
blank you know, blank screen with no human on the
other side. Is that kind of backtracked and did a
little bit of like who's my ideal reader? And I
(48:33):
thought of four friends who are totally like who I
have in three out of four of the cases. I've
actually coached them as well, so they know of me
as sort of you know, in in coach friend land
already the sort of nebulous zone UM and asked them
if I could sort of interview them for half an
hour and recorded and asked them, like really kind of
on the spot questions like what's your relationship to your voice?
(48:55):
And I mean I got so much out of that,
you know, the equivalent of like those of you list
sitting like getting to actually just sort of ask you
guys questions back um is connections about connecting for sure,
but also just like I tried to not talk because
I really wanted to just like have the recording be
you know, them talking in their own way, giving me
(49:16):
new ways to think about this stuff. But inevitably I
was jumping in. I mean actually did a pretty good
job of not doing it, but like inevitably I was
jumping in because we would we would like go off
on tangents where we were planning something new that made
us both excited based on what they said. And that
is like what I missed from not having like our
coworking space to go to like just the sort of
(49:36):
the surprise element of conversationsh pandemic times. Y'all. Okay, we
are going to drop another episode with way more listener
questions next week, so listen for that. And thank you
to Cat for joining me, for bantering with me and
(49:57):
cheerleading the heck out of this podcast, and of course
for doing the actual work of gathering the questions and
for you for sending them in. Thank you to Sophie
Lichterman and the team at I Heeart Radio and all
of you. We're recording this podcast at various locations around
Los Angeles on land that is the historic gathering place
(50:18):
for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit U.
S d A C dot us to learn more about
honoring Native land. Permission to Speak is a production of
I Heart Radio and Double Vision, Executive produced by Katherine
Burke Canton and Mark Canton. For more podcasts from my
Heart Radio, listen on the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your favorite shows.
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