January 31, 2025 • 22 mins
Shane and Marty welcome Travis Milleman, PING Design Engineering Manager, to the podcast to take a closer look at the G440 fairway woods and hybrids. They discuss Free Hosel design, the refined fairway wood face heights, and how to leverage fitting solutions like PING Co-Pilot and the Gapping App to optimize the longer clubs in your bag.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The guys from paying They've kind of showed me how
much the equipment matters.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I just love that I can hit any shot I
kind of want.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
We're gonna be able to tell some fun stories about
what goes on here to help golfers play better golf.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Pink proven Grounds Podcast.
I am Shane Bak and joined as always by Marty
Jerts and Marty. We got an exciting guest today, talk
a little fairway woods.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
We got Travis Millerman. So he is the chief engineer
on the Fairweywood family, So we couldn't have a better
engineer knows it all this He does know it all
and knows every nook and cranny of the four forty
fairway Woods. Travis. I think the listeners out there follow
the Proving Grounds podcast know that the four to thirty
fairway would pretty much dominated the usage on the PGA Tour.
(00:40):
All of our staff used at a lot of non
staff players using it. Super popular. Why was it so
popular and what did we do to make it even
better with the four to forty?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
No, I think it's done really well on the PGA Tour. Shockingly,
it did better on the PGA Tour. It's second year
in launch, in life cycle of its product, but I
think we had some stat that it won. The fairywould
count The G four to thirty Max Firrywood was the
number one fairwood on the PGA Tour for thirty six
out of forty weeks.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
In a row.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Crazy pretty good nine months stretch there, and I think
it truly is a testament to delivering stable flight. The
Max Ferrywood was the number one model, not the LST
so it did provide a really good ability to get
the ball in the air with pretty stable MOI properties.
So we felt like the players had pretty good distance
control and directional control off the tee.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
What role did you know? I see? You know, folks
are go out and they see the fairwood to retail,
to see the sticker. Spinsistency might sound like some marketing
term to them. What is sponsistency? How does it work?
How did it work in the four thirty? We made
need changes in the four to forty.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, easy to say, right, sponsistency. So sponsistency is our
variable role. So it's the the change of the curvature
of the face from the top of the crown to
the bottom of the sole. We vary the curvature of
that to help people give more consistent spin conditions. So
as we'd say spin sistent, so lower on the face.
Typically with fairywoods that don't have this technology, they're gonna
(02:06):
launch pretty low with a ton of spin. So we've
actually shaped the bottom of that face such that the
spin conditions will be a little bit more consistent relative
to a shot in the center of the face or
even high on the face. So we do vary that
to help add to the total effective performance to the club.
It would even say, you could say it's a little
bit more effective my even though it's not going to
show up on any reading.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Travis, I want to talk about fairy woods in terms
of usage because I feel like there's kind of a
debate right now. It's like off the t off the turf,
you know, you're hitting a second shot into a par five,
and it feels like certain fairywoods are built specifically for
one part or the other, and I imagine it's tough
to build one that works both off the tea and
from a fairway.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
No.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah, speaking to PJA tour players, they're the ones that
want it to do everything right from every place, right
off the tee, off the turf. So yeah, when we
designed the four to forty product, we looked at where
do people even use their faraway woods. We have a
great partnership with our cost a ton of data that
we looked at for real consumers using our products and
just jet farowoods in general, and found it's highly correlated
(03:10):
to how far do you hit your driver as to
where you're gonna use your faroywood right. So if you're
a consumer, I think this is the approximate averages. If
you hit your driver two hundred yards, you're gonna hit
your fhareowood off the T twenty percent of the time.
You're probably can hit driver everywhere you can right because
you need the length off the tee. If you're someone
who hits their driver three hundred yards, you're gonna hit
your Ferareo off the T eighty percent of the time.
(03:31):
You're gonna be using it as a positional club every
now and then you'll hit it into a par five,
but mostly positional off the tee. So when we looked
at designing our product, we wanted to combine who is
going to be using each specific model with where do
we think they're going to play it right. So LST
consumer probably is that person hitting three hundred yard drives
plus right, So we designed the face on the LST
(03:51):
to be the tallest of the trio to allow them
to hit off the tea a little with a little
bit more confidence, whereas the SFT is we'd assume is
the consumer that needs help right. They need more distance,
they need the ball to turn over, get in the
air and turn over. We think that person is going
to hit their driver two hundred yards right closer to
the bottom end of the spectrum. So we thought, you
know what, we should make that fairwood shallow, keep it
(04:13):
low to the ground to help the ball get in
the air. So we're really trying to tailor the designs
and the MAX.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
It's somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
So if we're looking at the face height gradient, the
LST's gonna be the tallest. MAX is moderate SFT. We're
trying to keep really shallow.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Marty. I mean that was the thing that sit out
to me right out of the bat. And the first
fairrywood I hit with four forty was the five wood,
and I was shocked how tall the LST was. And
for me, that's great. I'm a little steper with Fairwoods'm
a little seper in general with my golf swing. I
loved how tall that wood was because I felt like
I could hit it off the turf and really kind
of still smash it if I needed to. But you know,
(04:46):
I'm a guy that's gonna hit a lot of fairywoods
off teas and that's important. You get a little you
get tee it up. You can actually kind of squeeze
one out there. So I was very impressed with, like,
you know, again the tallness of lst.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, yeah, that was something that we've seen from some
of our tour players. Kind of a swing character. You
tend to want to hit down on it a little bit,
squeeze it out there. I mean Louis us stays and
was one of our guys for a long time, played
the G five super I.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Get my swing gets off to Louis all the time,
So thanks for doing it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, Like Louis, you know, Hunter mayhon back in the
day like the deep face fairy wood, but Travis making
the face deeper it doesn't come without a cost, right,
Like if you try to make the face taller, your
Cg's going up and you're is a designer to be
like never doing that, right? So what did we do
to counteract that with the four to forty?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, we have fought for so long to get higher launch,
lower spin farm Faiywood. So you see over the transition
from G five days to where we're at with G
four to thirty. We've made our faces shallower and shallower
and shallower, trying to achieve lower and lower CG. So
the ball gets in the air with four to forty.
The main desire from everyone that uses the product is
we want the face to be a little bit taller.
We love how it performs off the turf. We just
(05:51):
want to hit off the tea a little bit more
than we are right now. So growing the face height
is just as simple as making the face taller. But
when you do that, see goes up. Everything we fought
for from four twenty five to four thirty goes away, right,
So we want to do that without sacrifice growing the
face height. We had to do something else to keep
the CG low so Freehau's design is a really big
(06:12):
one across the entire Metal Woods family. Driver Farry and
Hybrid to help lower the CG remove mass high in
the heel, right, So it's removing the mass located in
the high heel region. When we remove that mass, we
could make the face taller. Basically, one for one every
gram we saved in the heel, we made the face taller,
so effectively you can deliver a taller face with the
(06:33):
same cig height. So to perform the same off the ground,
we have a little bit more confidence off the t.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
What about the carbon fly wrap, what purpose does that serve?
How much mass are you save in would the carbon
fly wrap on the ferry.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
With Yeah, should not be understated. We first introduced carbon
fly wrap on the faroywoods back in four thirty. From
four twenty five to four thirty is about ten to
twelve grams depending on the loft, right, So it's a
lot of mass to save from an area. Literally the
highest point on the crown we're lowering that mass free
hozle on the max and the sfts is about ten grams.
So from four twenty five to four to forty, it's
about twenty grams of mass we saved from an area
(07:08):
is really high on the face.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, I mean we're talking four grams with the driver.
I mean this is incredible.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, so that's the difference in a driver you have titanium.
It's already really geared towards being lightweight. Faariywoods are steel.
They're heavy, but they're strong. That's why we have them.
So any gram, any amount of volume, we can remove,
and steel is much more efficient in terms of mass saving.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
So, Travis, I've always been a fan of yours, but
you went up on my list when the fourwood it
really really started to come back just for you forty.
I think my favorite pink club I've ever had is
a G twenty four wood. I used it for years
and years and years. Four wood is back. Why did
we bring the forwood back with four forty?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, it's I mean, if you look in the bags
of some of our tour players, even the engineers in
the office, you'll find a lot of forwoods in four thirty.
Right now, they're playing a five wood turned down right
from eighteen to sixteen to five with a three wood shaft.
It's it's been a club that we have all semi
built ourselves. The reason why we want to launch it
(08:05):
in four to forty was just to add it as
a stock offering. So the three woods fifteen degrees, the
four would be seventeen, and we've actually moved the five
wood up a little bit to make room, basically space
them out a little bit to shove a forward in
the middle. So it's going to be a three wood
shaft seventeen degrees of loft, and it's really geared towards
someone who might need a little bit more help getting
the ball in the air. Let's say they don't have
enough speed to play a three wood. Three woods are
(08:26):
tough to hit for a lot of players, right, so
they need just a little bit more loft to get
the ball in the air. Or it could be something
that is a really good play for our tour staff,
someone that wants a positional distance club. These guys hit
it three ten, three twenty, right. They don't need to
be hitting their fairywood always two eighty five off the tee,
so a lot of them will self gravitate towards a
higher loft of fairwood to hit a number, right. They
(08:47):
want a gap to a specific number, so it should
be good.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
And also, I mean the fours in the name twice,
so you might as well have a four wood is
there as well? If it's four foot forward. What are
we doing here? I mean, that'd be silly.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Travis. You talked a lot about players using our trajectory
tuning sleeve, which kind of tilts the shaft axis a
little so we can change the loft. There's been times
where we've designed Fairywood's with the soul a little bit flatter.
So if you maybe put in the plus position, the
face starts get looking a little closed. Yea. Do we
do anything in the four to forty kind of counter that?
(09:18):
And can you tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah? No, I think to your point, we've designed our
souls really flat and our face is pretty shallow to
chase low CG. Freehau's design has allowed us to rethink
how we want to shape that Fairywood. So when you
add loft to Fairywood any club, really the face is
going to want to shut or rock close.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
For some players, that's great, I think we see. I know,
I keep going back to tour, but they're the people
that I talk to a lot right now, very sensitive
face angle for performance right, anything that sits too open
or too closed instantly will not be hit right. We
need to find the right loft for that player. When
we add loft to a fairrywood, typically it'll shut quite significantly,
about one to two degrees for every loft a degree
(10:00):
of loft that is added with no ability. On four
to thirty, it's great. Cg's super low. When it rocks shut,
it's staying there. It's very stable. The RFA, the resting
face angle we call it. It's very stable on four
thirty to its own demise. When we add loft and
the plus big plus small plus positions, it does tend
to sit a little close. So on four to forty
we decided to remove some of that material, kind of
(10:23):
go back to older soul shapings that allow you to
rock back open when you do add loft, something that
we weren't previously willing to do because we've been chasing
low low, low low low CG for so long. But
Freehaus's design definitely did allow us to add in that feature.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
So I think for the better player, I think it's like, hey,
I get on a part five, Shane, You're trying to
hit this big banana cut in there. You go to
open the face a lot, the lead edge rises up
and you're like, I wish you didn't do that as much.
Is it going to do it less with les four
forty less?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yes, intended to be less, so we really want to unlock.
We have trajectory tune sleeves. They're great, right. We have
very simple, lightweight, easy use design. We felt like we
weren't really harnessing the plus loft settings as much as
we could, right, so we saw a lot of people
in the five wood turned down to a four wood,
right so it'd sit nice and open. We do feel
like with the smoother soul design we have on the
(11:14):
firewood and the hybrid, it'll allow people to when you
add a little bit loft, it'll sit shut. You can
rock it back open still keeping the leading edge closer
to the ground.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Travis, The fairway world has changed a lot over the
last few years. I mean I think about fairy woods
when I was growing up and you had a three
wood and maybe you had a five wood, right, the
popularity of the seven wood and now nine woods even
in bags. Will that be a part of the four
to forty family as well?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
For sure? Yes. I think across the market we've seen
a big trend of more and more high lofted fairywoods
and less hybrids. Like people are finding the transition to
fairywood's a little bit more palable. It's a bigger head,
a little bit more forgiving, you get a little bit
more height, the shaft is longer, so the person that
needs help getting the ball in the air is probably
actually better suited with a high lofted fairywood. And so
(12:00):
that's actually gonna be a big story for us. We
added a forwood. We think that fourwood is going to
gap really well to a seven wood or a nine
wood in the line, depending on your club at speed,
in the fitting environment. We can dial it in for you.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I mean, Marty, it is so funny because you know,
when I was growing up, you know, I mean, no,
no good player would be seen with a seven wood. Yeah,
for goodness sakes, a nine wood was four and anybody
that played golf. And now you know you're seeing good players.
You're seeing professional golfers using nine woods at times in
their bags.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's been great. I mean,
I can't understand the importance of things like the spinsistency
because to me, it kind of brings to life thin
to win, so you like, you can thin it and
see you still hit that have that great result. I
think on the tour side, you know, we and you
can and folks can do this. In the fitting environment.
(12:47):
You can play you know, a seven wood with a
nine fitted in there and put the nine wood shaft
in it tried a little bit shorter if you need to,
so you can use the shaft length to kind of
dial in the spin. So I think, yeah, we're gonna
we're gonna see a lot of three or the four
to seven combo. So those are great options in the
MAX family. Travis talk a little bit about SFT, the
(13:08):
approach to that, what lofts are there, who's that for,
and what does it do?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, the SFT is straight flight technology for those that
don't know what the SFT stands for, and it's really
geared for someone who needs to help get the ball
in the air.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
So it's a little bit more loft.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
So the three would sixteen degrees in the SFT family,
so a degree more loft than it's MAX or LST counterpart.
And it's really geared towards delivering kind of that rounded shape, confidence,
inspiring a little bit bigger overall profile, and like we
talked about shallower face, we're trying to keep the cg
as low as possible, trying to get the ball in
the air. So do we have a three, the five
(13:41):
and the seven space sixteen nineteen twenty two, trying to
get equal gapping between those three if you do want
to add those three to your bag, but really geared
towards the person who needs help getting the ball in
the air.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Marty Dara, ask you what's in your bag right now?
In terms of the four forty fairly woods. I'm always
I'm always a little scared. Sometimes they ask what you
got going?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, no, I've typically been a five wood player, but
I've played it in the minus position, either either big
minus or small minus, perfect five, perfect four wood for me?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Well do you s? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
At forty two inches? Okay, forty two inches, So it's
a little short. It's it's a it's an inch short.
It's a half inch short of a five wood and
one inch short of standard. But that's what I've played
my five wood aut I've played my five wood at
forty two, which is traditionally minus a half in a
four wood, it's it's minus one inch.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Always seen I'll say that.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
The bag of Marty Jerts and Travis we talked about
the lofted woods, but hybrid's a big part of four
to forty as well. What should people expect with the
hybrids with four to forty.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, Hybrid's kind of similar story. We looked at when
we first designed this product.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Who uses our hybrids?
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Okay, we looked at all this arco state on farirywood,
where do people hit them? But with hybrids, we really
wanted to know who is this consumer and so we
actually went no further than what I who I think
are the best hybrid players in the world. LPGA Tour Yep, Yeah,
there is a staggering number of ping staff players on
the LPGA tour. That player four hybrid, that player five hybrid.
So we asked them what do you need? What do
(15:07):
you want out of your bag? And with hybrids, they
just want more height, more stopping power. This is a
club that is being used to gap between their irons
and their ferrywoods. It's replacing a long iron, so they
need height. And so with four thirty, we felt like
we do really well, our hybrids do really well in
the marketplace and on tour. If we could layer on
(15:28):
adding a little bit of height while keeping our distance,
that we have right now, it'd be a big win,
which is why we explored free howe design. Right, it's
the same technology trying to lower CG in every which
way we can, so free housel design takes mass out
of the high heel. We shorten the face height too,
trying to lower the face height. Like I talked about
the farrywoods, we're trying to lower the CG. Lowering the
(15:49):
face height allow us to go a little thinner, so
we save a ton of masks from the face the hozzle.
What we really were able to do with the really
low CG was add more loft without having excess spin
right eight or losing ball speed, so it launches higher
due the extra loft, but still maintains a ball speed
and spin of a club that has a degree less loft.
So we're able to achieve a little bit peak higher
(16:10):
peak height the same carry distance, if not a little
bit more in our testing.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So an LPGA player might use a hybrid on a
long par three or maybe a second shot into a
par five. When you look at Arco Stata for maybe
an average player that has a few hybrids in the bag,
where are they using those.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Clubs similar I think if you look at average club
HD speed on LPG Tour, the driver average club at
speed is around ninety five miles an hour. If I
look at the average of every ping fitting we've ever given,
I think it's around eighty five. So it's not that
far apart from each other. So we have assumed a
lot of the places the LPGA Tour player will use
their clubs our G consumers are going to be well
(16:47):
suited in those places as well, so we would see
the kind of the same trends.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, Shane. One thing really fun with the four forty
hybrid is we have when we first sit down to
design the product, Travis's team on the design side, my
team on the fitting side will kind of put our
brains together and be like if we could wave a
magic wand what could we do. And we went into
the four forty, it was like, we want the iron
peak height to be here. We went the Fairwoods to
(17:11):
be here, and we went the hybrids exactly in the
middle fifty percent right, because with the four thirty, we
are seeing the hybrids be more thirty percent higher than
the irons as opposed to right in the middle. And
when we did our final product validation, spot bang on.
The hybrids go right in between the fairy woods and
the long iron, so the fitting is phenomenal. Now you
(17:33):
get these perfect three perfect options. You know, if you're
starting to lose height. This is what drives all the
algorithms and the gapping app which I know you've used,
we talked about in Pink co Pilot. So I love
that the hybrids go that much higher without going.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Shorter, same distance, if not a little bit more in some.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Loss because they have to keep up with the iron.
So talk about that, Travis. What we do. The hybrids
need to talk to the irons. It's not like the
hybrid designers over there in a box, right, we're all we.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
All sit next to each other. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
So we've made some really great advancements with four to
forty long irons and four to forty I think we're
quoting the five iron for certain consumers could go four
to five yards longer than four to thirty. So when
we're looking at gapping between an iron that already is
better performing than where we're at today to fairrywoods that
we think think are more versatile and have better fitting
options and have increased distance from where we're at today,
we need that hybrid to do the heavy lifting as well,
(18:25):
So I think it is a true testament. Adding more
loft without losing distance helps us get those peak height
trajectory differences. So if someone can't get the five roun
in the air, which we know are a lot of people,
four irons are very hard to get in the air
for a lot of people, we think we have really
good options to give a little bit more heightened the hybrid.
And if you still have hard time getting the hybrid
in the air, we make really good high lofted ferrywoods, right,
(18:46):
So it's all about fitting copilot. The Gaping app is
really good.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
For that, Marty. I think about you know, the average
golfer out there listening to the podcast and hearing all
this and wondering what goes in my bag? Right, because
there are so many options. I mean, you can get fit, obviously,
and we preach that a lot, but how important is
it to lean into something like the Gaping app and
just lean into a place where you can type in
your numbers and where you play and how your game
(19:11):
kind of fits maybe the equipment that's coming up, and
how do you pick between a hybrid and a seven
wood or you know something like that. I mean, where
do the golfers go?
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, the actionable takeaway for the for the listener out there.
Number one. If you haven't done a gap fitting, go
on to webfit webfit dot ping dot com logins. You
don't even put launch condition numbers in there. We just
kind of ask you some qualitative, easy to answer questions
a couple minutes in there, and it builds your bag.
It gives you kind of conceptual framework, not intended to
(19:40):
replace an actual dynamic fitting on a launch monitor, but
it's really fun to go there. It's kind of like
your practice round for your club fitting. Then go to
or find a fitter tool on ping dot com and
we have a little filter in there that says, hey,
I use copilot. Go see a fitter that uses copilot.
You're gonna love going on the gaping app because it'll
break down. You go, you go hit seven irons. The
(20:01):
fitter is going to put your launch condition numbers in
and the gapping app will predict pretty creepily accurate. You
know where in your irons are you going to start
losing peak height? We have great algorithms there and there
that says, hey, your longest sirn should be a six
iron or seven iron or five iron. Then what hybrids
do you play? What fairwoods do you play? And all
(20:22):
this product testing that we've done to validate these designs
is driving all that. So you really do get access
to the same tools and testing that we've done right
here at the proving grounds.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Travis, I love to ask Marty about the bag, but
I know the four wood is kind of your baby.
Is a fourwood in your bag right now?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Ah?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yes, it is for sure? I mean you can't you
can't say away, no, why would you? That would be
so silly. I mean, I'm probably gonna lean back in
the four wood world. I've been seven wood for a while, Marty,
but I think I I might, I might go back.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, what about Travis, Let's talk a little bit about
the LST Fairywood. Yeah, what goes into the LST? Who's it? Four?
Do we add anything new there this year?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah? So we did.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
We obviously talked about the face high changes, right, We're
trying to gear that club for someone who wants to
hit it more off the te big things. We have
a new face material. HST two twenty is the strongest
tightening we've used in a product to date, which allows
us to make the face taller and thinner. It's hot.
In our testing we're seeing with some of our elite players,
we're seeing over a mone hour more ball speed compared
(21:20):
to four to thirty LST, which we think is one
of the fastest fairy woods out there. So we're layering
on more speed carbon fly rap so free hozzle, it's
not going anywhere, it's there on Across all of our
metal woods we have free hozzle, carbon fly rap are
taller HST two twenty face wrap design, and all of
that leads us with a lot of mass savings that
(21:40):
we put into our tungsten soule plate. Basically every gram
we say from the design, we put as low as
humanly possible in the club to drive that CG down.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
So how much weights in the soule play right there?
Eighty five.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
At so we actually so we have the three LST,
which we've added a ton of new playability too, and
we also added the five l ST. I think it's
been a desire to get a club that has nineteen
degrees of loft, gets to the ball in the air,
but doesn't spin excessively right, So compared to the max.
It should spin four to five hundred rpm lower than
the equitable max Fairrywood five five Max Fairrywood. So it's
(22:15):
gonna be good. It's another fitting option, right, you love those?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, we got a lot of fitting options, a lot
of clubs options.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Travisa, I'd say you did as good as that sweater looks.
I mean, that's a good looking ping sweater you go today.
We appreciate, obviously the insight into four forty and uh,
the work you put into it. Like I said, I've
been a forwood guy most of my life and I'm
excited to get back into its true forward. By the way,
I know there's been some quote unquote forwards in the
King family, but having the actual four on the head
(22:41):
is going to be cool. This is the Ping Proun
Grounds Podcast
The guys from paying They've kind of showed me how
much the equipment matters.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I just love that I can hit any shot I
kind of want.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
We're gonna be able to tell some fun stories about
what goes on here to help golfers play better golf.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Pink proven Grounds Podcast.
I am Shane Bak and joined as always by Marty
Jerts and Marty. We got an exciting guest today, talk
a little fairway woods.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
We got Travis Millerman. So he is the chief engineer
on the Fairweywood family, So we couldn't have a better
engineer knows it all this He does know it all
and knows every nook and cranny of the four forty
fairway Woods. Travis. I think the listeners out there follow
the Proving Grounds podcast know that the four to thirty
fairway would pretty much dominated the usage on the PGA Tour.
(00:40):
All of our staff used at a lot of non
staff players using it. Super popular. Why was it so
popular and what did we do to make it even
better with the four to forty?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
No, I think it's done really well on the PGA Tour. Shockingly,
it did better on the PGA Tour. It's second year
in launch, in life cycle of its product, but I
think we had some stat that it won. The fairywould
count The G four to thirty Max Firrywood was the
number one fairwood on the PGA Tour for thirty six
out of forty weeks.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
In a row.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Crazy pretty good nine months stretch there, and I think
it truly is a testament to delivering stable flight. The
Max Ferrywood was the number one model, not the LST
so it did provide a really good ability to get
the ball in the air with pretty stable MOI properties.
So we felt like the players had pretty good distance
control and directional control off the tee.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
What role did you know? I see? You know, folks
are go out and they see the fairwood to retail,
to see the sticker. Spinsistency might sound like some marketing
term to them. What is sponsistency? How does it work?
How did it work in the four thirty? We made
need changes in the four to forty.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, easy to say, right, sponsistency. So sponsistency is our
variable role. So it's the the change of the curvature
of the face from the top of the crown to
the bottom of the sole. We vary the curvature of
that to help people give more consistent spin conditions. So
as we'd say spin sistent, so lower on the face.
Typically with fairywoods that don't have this technology, they're gonna
(02:06):
launch pretty low with a ton of spin. So we've
actually shaped the bottom of that face such that the
spin conditions will be a little bit more consistent relative
to a shot in the center of the face or
even high on the face. So we do vary that
to help add to the total effective performance to the club.
It would even say, you could say it's a little
bit more effective my even though it's not going to
show up on any reading.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Travis, I want to talk about fairy woods in terms
of usage because I feel like there's kind of a
debate right now. It's like off the t off the turf,
you know, you're hitting a second shot into a par five,
and it feels like certain fairywoods are built specifically for
one part or the other, and I imagine it's tough
to build one that works both off the tea and
from a fairway.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
No.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah, speaking to PJA tour players, they're the ones that
want it to do everything right from every place, right
off the tee, off the turf. So yeah, when we
designed the four to forty product, we looked at where
do people even use their faraway woods. We have a
great partnership with our cost a ton of data that
we looked at for real consumers using our products and
just jet farowoods in general, and found it's highly correlated
(03:10):
to how far do you hit your driver as to
where you're gonna use your faroywood right. So if you're
a consumer, I think this is the approximate averages. If
you hit your driver two hundred yards, you're gonna hit
your fhareowood off the T twenty percent of the time.
You're probably can hit driver everywhere you can right because
you need the length off the tee. If you're someone
who hits their driver three hundred yards, you're gonna hit
your Ferareo off the T eighty percent of the time.
(03:31):
You're gonna be using it as a positional club every
now and then you'll hit it into a par five,
but mostly positional off the tee. So when we looked
at designing our product, we wanted to combine who is
going to be using each specific model with where do
we think they're going to play it right. So LST
consumer probably is that person hitting three hundred yard drives
plus right, So we designed the face on the LST
(03:51):
to be the tallest of the trio to allow them
to hit off the tea a little with a little
bit more confidence, whereas the SFT is we'd assume is
the consumer that needs help right. They need more distance,
they need the ball to turn over, get in the
air and turn over. We think that person is going
to hit their driver two hundred yards right closer to
the bottom end of the spectrum. So we thought, you
know what, we should make that fairwood shallow, keep it
(04:13):
low to the ground to help the ball get in
the air. So we're really trying to tailor the designs
and the MAX.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
It's somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
So if we're looking at the face height gradient, the
LST's gonna be the tallest. MAX is moderate SFT. We're
trying to keep really shallow.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Marty. I mean that was the thing that sit out
to me right out of the bat. And the first
fairrywood I hit with four forty was the five wood,
and I was shocked how tall the LST was. And
for me, that's great. I'm a little steper with Fairwoods'm
a little seper in general with my golf swing. I
loved how tall that wood was because I felt like
I could hit it off the turf and really kind
of still smash it if I needed to. But you know,
(04:46):
I'm a guy that's gonna hit a lot of fairywoods
off teas and that's important. You get a little you
get tee it up. You can actually kind of squeeze
one out there. So I was very impressed with, like,
you know, again the tallness of lst.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, yeah, that was something that we've seen from some
of our tour players. Kind of a swing character. You
tend to want to hit down on it a little bit,
squeeze it out there. I mean Louis us stays and
was one of our guys for a long time, played
the G five super I.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Get my swing gets off to Louis all the time,
So thanks for doing it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, Like Louis, you know, Hunter mayhon back in the
day like the deep face fairy wood, but Travis making
the face deeper it doesn't come without a cost, right,
Like if you try to make the face taller, your
Cg's going up and you're is a designer to be
like never doing that, right? So what did we do
to counteract that with the four to forty?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, we have fought for so long to get higher launch,
lower spin farm Faiywood. So you see over the transition
from G five days to where we're at with G
four to thirty. We've made our faces shallower and shallower
and shallower, trying to achieve lower and lower CG. So
the ball gets in the air with four to forty.
The main desire from everyone that uses the product is
we want the face to be a little bit taller.
We love how it performs off the turf. We just
(05:51):
want to hit off the tea a little bit more
than we are right now. So growing the face height
is just as simple as making the face taller. But
when you do that, see goes up. Everything we fought
for from four twenty five to four thirty goes away, right,
So we want to do that without sacrifice growing the
face height. We had to do something else to keep
the CG low so Freehau's design is a really big
(06:12):
one across the entire Metal Woods family. Driver Farry and
Hybrid to help lower the CG remove mass high in
the heel, right, So it's removing the mass located in
the high heel region. When we remove that mass, we
could make the face taller. Basically, one for one every
gram we saved in the heel, we made the face taller,
so effectively you can deliver a taller face with the
(06:33):
same cig height. So to perform the same off the ground,
we have a little bit more confidence off the t.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
What about the carbon fly wrap, what purpose does that serve?
How much mass are you save in would the carbon
fly wrap on the ferry.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
With Yeah, should not be understated. We first introduced carbon
fly wrap on the faroywoods back in four thirty. From
four twenty five to four thirty is about ten to
twelve grams depending on the loft, right, So it's a
lot of mass to save from an area. Literally the
highest point on the crown we're lowering that mass free
hozle on the max and the sfts is about ten grams.
So from four twenty five to four to forty, it's
about twenty grams of mass we saved from an area
(07:08):
is really high on the face.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, I mean we're talking four grams with the driver.
I mean this is incredible.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, so that's the difference in a driver you have titanium.
It's already really geared towards being lightweight. Faariywoods are steel.
They're heavy, but they're strong. That's why we have them.
So any gram, any amount of volume, we can remove,
and steel is much more efficient in terms of mass saving.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
So, Travis, I've always been a fan of yours, but
you went up on my list when the fourwood it
really really started to come back just for you forty.
I think my favorite pink club I've ever had is
a G twenty four wood. I used it for years
and years and years. Four wood is back. Why did
we bring the forwood back with four forty?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, it's I mean, if you look in the bags
of some of our tour players, even the engineers in
the office, you'll find a lot of forwoods in four thirty.
Right now, they're playing a five wood turned down right
from eighteen to sixteen to five with a three wood shaft.
It's it's been a club that we have all semi
built ourselves. The reason why we want to launch it
(08:05):
in four to forty was just to add it as
a stock offering. So the three woods fifteen degrees, the
four would be seventeen, and we've actually moved the five
wood up a little bit to make room, basically space
them out a little bit to shove a forward in
the middle. So it's going to be a three wood
shaft seventeen degrees of loft, and it's really geared towards
someone who might need a little bit more help getting
the ball in the air. Let's say they don't have
enough speed to play a three wood. Three woods are
(08:26):
tough to hit for a lot of players, right, so
they need just a little bit more loft to get
the ball in the air. Or it could be something
that is a really good play for our tour staff,
someone that wants a positional distance club. These guys hit
it three ten, three twenty, right. They don't need to
be hitting their fairywood always two eighty five off the tee,
so a lot of them will self gravitate towards a
higher loft of fairwood to hit a number, right. They
(08:47):
want a gap to a specific number, so it should
be good.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
And also, I mean the fours in the name twice,
so you might as well have a four wood is
there as well? If it's four foot forward. What are
we doing here? I mean, that'd be silly.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Travis. You talked a lot about players using our trajectory
tuning sleeve, which kind of tilts the shaft axis a
little so we can change the loft. There's been times
where we've designed Fairywood's with the soul a little bit flatter.
So if you maybe put in the plus position, the
face starts get looking a little closed. Yea. Do we
do anything in the four to forty kind of counter that?
(09:18):
And can you tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah? No, I think to your point, we've designed our
souls really flat and our face is pretty shallow to
chase low CG. Freehau's design has allowed us to rethink
how we want to shape that Fairywood. So when you
add loft to Fairywood any club, really the face is
going to want to shut or rock close.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
For some players, that's great, I think we see. I know,
I keep going back to tour, but they're the people
that I talk to a lot right now, very sensitive
face angle for performance right, anything that sits too open
or too closed instantly will not be hit right. We
need to find the right loft for that player. When
we add loft to a fairrywood, typically it'll shut quite significantly,
about one to two degrees for every loft a degree
(10:00):
of loft that is added with no ability. On four
to thirty, it's great. Cg's super low. When it rocks shut,
it's staying there. It's very stable. The RFA, the resting
face angle we call it. It's very stable on four
thirty to its own demise. When we add loft and
the plus big plus small plus positions, it does tend
to sit a little close. So on four to forty
we decided to remove some of that material, kind of
(10:23):
go back to older soul shapings that allow you to
rock back open when you do add loft, something that
we weren't previously willing to do because we've been chasing
low low, low low low CG for so long. But
Freehaus's design definitely did allow us to add in that feature.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
So I think for the better player, I think it's like, hey,
I get on a part five, Shane, You're trying to
hit this big banana cut in there. You go to
open the face a lot, the lead edge rises up
and you're like, I wish you didn't do that as much.
Is it going to do it less with les four
forty less?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yes, intended to be less, so we really want to unlock.
We have trajectory tune sleeves. They're great, right. We have
very simple, lightweight, easy use design. We felt like we
weren't really harnessing the plus loft settings as much as
we could, right, so we saw a lot of people
in the five wood turned down to a four wood,
right so it'd sit nice and open. We do feel
like with the smoother soul design we have on the
(11:14):
firewood and the hybrid, it'll allow people to when you
add a little bit loft, it'll sit shut. You can
rock it back open still keeping the leading edge closer
to the ground.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Travis, The fairway world has changed a lot over the
last few years. I mean I think about fairy woods
when I was growing up and you had a three
wood and maybe you had a five wood, right, the
popularity of the seven wood and now nine woods even
in bags. Will that be a part of the four
to forty family as well?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
For sure? Yes. I think across the market we've seen
a big trend of more and more high lofted fairywoods
and less hybrids. Like people are finding the transition to
fairywood's a little bit more palable. It's a bigger head,
a little bit more forgiving, you get a little bit
more height, the shaft is longer, so the person that
needs help getting the ball in the air is probably
actually better suited with a high lofted fairywood. And so
(12:00):
that's actually gonna be a big story for us. We
added a forwood. We think that fourwood is going to
gap really well to a seven wood or a nine
wood in the line, depending on your club at speed,
in the fitting environment. We can dial it in for you.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I mean, Marty, it is so funny because you know,
when I was growing up, you know, I mean, no,
no good player would be seen with a seven wood. Yeah,
for goodness sakes, a nine wood was four and anybody
that played golf. And now you know you're seeing good players.
You're seeing professional golfers using nine woods at times in
their bags.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's been great. I mean,
I can't understand the importance of things like the spinsistency
because to me, it kind of brings to life thin
to win, so you like, you can thin it and
see you still hit that have that great result. I
think on the tour side, you know, we and you
can and folks can do this. In the fitting environment.
(12:47):
You can play you know, a seven wood with a
nine fitted in there and put the nine wood shaft
in it tried a little bit shorter if you need to,
so you can use the shaft length to kind of
dial in the spin. So I think, yeah, we're gonna
we're gonna see a lot of three or the four
to seven combo. So those are great options in the
MAX family. Travis talk a little bit about SFT, the
(13:08):
approach to that, what lofts are there, who's that for,
and what does it do?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, the SFT is straight flight technology for those that
don't know what the SFT stands for, and it's really
geared for someone who needs to help get the ball
in the air.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
So it's a little bit more loft.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
So the three would sixteen degrees in the SFT family,
so a degree more loft than it's MAX or LST counterpart.
And it's really geared towards delivering kind of that rounded shape, confidence,
inspiring a little bit bigger overall profile, and like we
talked about shallower face, we're trying to keep the cg
as low as possible, trying to get the ball in
the air. So do we have a three, the five
(13:41):
and the seven space sixteen nineteen twenty two, trying to
get equal gapping between those three if you do want
to add those three to your bag, but really geared
towards the person who needs help getting the ball in
the air.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Marty Dara, ask you what's in your bag right now?
In terms of the four forty fairly woods. I'm always
I'm always a little scared. Sometimes they ask what you
got going?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, no, I've typically been a five wood player, but
I've played it in the minus position, either either big
minus or small minus, perfect five, perfect four wood for me?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Well do you s? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
At forty two inches? Okay, forty two inches, So it's
a little short. It's it's a it's an inch short.
It's a half inch short of a five wood and
one inch short of standard. But that's what I've played
my five wood aut I've played my five wood at
forty two, which is traditionally minus a half in a
four wood, it's it's minus one inch.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Always seen I'll say that.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
The bag of Marty Jerts and Travis we talked about
the lofted woods, but hybrid's a big part of four
to forty as well. What should people expect with the
hybrids with four to forty.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, Hybrid's kind of similar story. We looked at when
we first designed this product.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Who uses our hybrids?
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Okay, we looked at all this arco state on farirywood,
where do people hit them? But with hybrids, we really
wanted to know who is this consumer and so we
actually went no further than what I who I think
are the best hybrid players in the world. LPGA Tour Yep, Yeah,
there is a staggering number of ping staff players on
the LPGA tour. That player four hybrid, that player five hybrid.
So we asked them what do you need? What do
(15:07):
you want out of your bag? And with hybrids, they
just want more height, more stopping power. This is a
club that is being used to gap between their irons
and their ferrywoods. It's replacing a long iron, so they
need height. And so with four thirty, we felt like
we do really well, our hybrids do really well in
the marketplace and on tour. If we could layer on
(15:28):
adding a little bit of height while keeping our distance,
that we have right now, it'd be a big win,
which is why we explored free howe design. Right, it's
the same technology trying to lower CG in every which
way we can, so free housel design takes mass out
of the high heel. We shorten the face height too,
trying to lower the face height. Like I talked about
the farrywoods, we're trying to lower the CG. Lowering the
(15:49):
face height allow us to go a little thinner, so
we save a ton of masks from the face the hozzle.
What we really were able to do with the really
low CG was add more loft without having excess spin
right eight or losing ball speed, so it launches higher
due the extra loft, but still maintains a ball speed
and spin of a club that has a degree less loft.
So we're able to achieve a little bit peak higher
(16:10):
peak height the same carry distance, if not a little
bit more in our testing.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So an LPGA player might use a hybrid on a
long par three or maybe a second shot into a
par five. When you look at Arco Stata for maybe
an average player that has a few hybrids in the bag,
where are they using those.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Clubs similar I think if you look at average club
HD speed on LPG Tour, the driver average club at
speed is around ninety five miles an hour. If I
look at the average of every ping fitting we've ever given,
I think it's around eighty five. So it's not that
far apart from each other. So we have assumed a
lot of the places the LPGA Tour player will use
their clubs our G consumers are going to be well
(16:47):
suited in those places as well, so we would see
the kind of the same trends.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, Shane. One thing really fun with the four forty
hybrid is we have when we first sit down to
design the product, Travis's team on the design side, my
team on the fitting side will kind of put our
brains together and be like if we could wave a
magic wand what could we do. And we went into
the four forty, it was like, we want the iron
peak height to be here. We went the Fairwoods to
(17:11):
be here, and we went the hybrids exactly in the
middle fifty percent right, because with the four thirty, we
are seeing the hybrids be more thirty percent higher than
the irons as opposed to right in the middle. And
when we did our final product validation, spot bang on.
The hybrids go right in between the fairy woods and
the long iron, so the fitting is phenomenal. Now you
(17:33):
get these perfect three perfect options. You know, if you're
starting to lose height. This is what drives all the
algorithms and the gapping app which I know you've used,
we talked about in Pink co Pilot. So I love
that the hybrids go that much higher without going.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Shorter, same distance, if not a little bit more in some.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Loss because they have to keep up with the iron.
So talk about that, Travis. What we do. The hybrids
need to talk to the irons. It's not like the
hybrid designers over there in a box, right, we're all we.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
All sit next to each other. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
So we've made some really great advancements with four to
forty long irons and four to forty I think we're
quoting the five iron for certain consumers could go four
to five yards longer than four to thirty. So when
we're looking at gapping between an iron that already is
better performing than where we're at today to fairrywoods that
we think think are more versatile and have better fitting
options and have increased distance from where we're at today,
we need that hybrid to do the heavy lifting as well,
(18:25):
So I think it is a true testament. Adding more
loft without losing distance helps us get those peak height
trajectory differences. So if someone can't get the five roun
in the air, which we know are a lot of people,
four irons are very hard to get in the air
for a lot of people, we think we have really
good options to give a little bit more heightened the hybrid.
And if you still have hard time getting the hybrid
in the air, we make really good high lofted ferrywoods, right,
(18:46):
So it's all about fitting copilot. The Gaping app is
really good.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
For that, Marty. I think about you know, the average
golfer out there listening to the podcast and hearing all
this and wondering what goes in my bag? Right, because
there are so many options. I mean, you can get fit, obviously,
and we preach that a lot, but how important is
it to lean into something like the Gaping app and
just lean into a place where you can type in
your numbers and where you play and how your game
(19:11):
kind of fits maybe the equipment that's coming up, and
how do you pick between a hybrid and a seven
wood or you know something like that. I mean, where
do the golfers go?
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, the actionable takeaway for the for the listener out there.
Number one. If you haven't done a gap fitting, go
on to webfit webfit dot ping dot com logins. You
don't even put launch condition numbers in there. We just
kind of ask you some qualitative, easy to answer questions
a couple minutes in there, and it builds your bag.
It gives you kind of conceptual framework, not intended to
(19:40):
replace an actual dynamic fitting on a launch monitor, but
it's really fun to go there. It's kind of like
your practice round for your club fitting. Then go to
or find a fitter tool on ping dot com and
we have a little filter in there that says, hey,
I use copilot. Go see a fitter that uses copilot.
You're gonna love going on the gaping app because it'll
break down. You go, you go hit seven irons. The
(20:01):
fitter is going to put your launch condition numbers in
and the gapping app will predict pretty creepily accurate. You
know where in your irons are you going to start
losing peak height? We have great algorithms there and there
that says, hey, your longest sirn should be a six
iron or seven iron or five iron. Then what hybrids
do you play? What fairwoods do you play? And all
(20:22):
this product testing that we've done to validate these designs
is driving all that. So you really do get access
to the same tools and testing that we've done right
here at the proving grounds.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Travis, I love to ask Marty about the bag, but
I know the four wood is kind of your baby.
Is a fourwood in your bag right now?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Ah?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yes, it is for sure? I mean you can't you
can't say away, no, why would you? That would be
so silly. I mean, I'm probably gonna lean back in
the four wood world. I've been seven wood for a while, Marty,
but I think I I might, I might go back.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, what about Travis, Let's talk a little bit about
the LST Fairywood. Yeah, what goes into the LST? Who's it? Four?
Do we add anything new there this year?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah? So we did.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
We obviously talked about the face high changes, right, We're
trying to gear that club for someone who wants to
hit it more off the te big things. We have
a new face material. HST two twenty is the strongest
tightening we've used in a product to date, which allows
us to make the face taller and thinner. It's hot.
In our testing we're seeing with some of our elite players,
we're seeing over a mone hour more ball speed compared
(21:20):
to four to thirty LST, which we think is one
of the fastest fairy woods out there. So we're layering
on more speed carbon fly rap so free hozzle, it's
not going anywhere, it's there on Across all of our
metal woods we have free hozzle, carbon fly rap are
taller HST two twenty face wrap design, and all of
that leads us with a lot of mass savings that
(21:40):
we put into our tungsten soule plate. Basically every gram
we say from the design, we put as low as
humanly possible in the club to drive that CG down.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
So how much weights in the soule play right there?
Eighty five.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
At so we actually so we have the three LST,
which we've added a ton of new playability too, and
we also added the five l ST. I think it's
been a desire to get a club that has nineteen
degrees of loft, gets to the ball in the air,
but doesn't spin excessively right, So compared to the max.
It should spin four to five hundred rpm lower than
the equitable max Fairrywood five five Max Fairrywood. So it's
(22:15):
gonna be good. It's another fitting option, right, you love those?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, we got a lot of fitting options, a lot
of clubs options.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Travisa, I'd say you did as good as that sweater looks.
I mean, that's a good looking ping sweater you go today.
We appreciate, obviously the insight into four forty and uh,
the work you put into it. Like I said, I've
been a forwood guy most of my life and I'm
excited to get back into its true forward. By the way,
I know there's been some quote unquote forwards in the
King family, but having the actual four on the head
(22:41):
is going to be cool. This is the Ping Proun
Grounds Podcast
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