Exploring Mental Health Themes in Star Wars

In recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month wrapping up, Jon is joined by his friend and licensed mental health counselor, Celia Behar, for this special bonus episode to unwrap some of the mental health themes in Star Wars and discuss the importance of mental health awareness all year round. This is where the healing begins....

 

About Celia Behar:

Celia is a licensed LMHC (Licensed Mental Health Counselor), Permanent Certified School Counselor, ABA therapist (Applied Behavioral Analysis) and rehab & vocational counselor. She has combined all of those elements into her own private practice where she works with people from all around the world.

Follow Celia at: www.instagram.com/theceliabehar

If you'd like to inquire about booking an appointment with Celia: [e-mail]

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
If I had to diagnose Anakin, I actually think he
is a mental health disorder. I think he is a
borderline personality disorder.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hello and welcome everybody.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
Johnny Brody here, you're nonspector full on moderator for Potter Rebellion.
Here with the bonus episode that I've very much been
looking forward to. So we're just about to close out
the month of May. May, as you all know, is
AAPI Heritage month, so shouts to my fellow members at
the AAPI community Much Live Always, but May is also
a mental health awareness month. And even though the month
of May is ending, that doesn't mean the awareness has
the stuff. And like the Rebel Alliance, I have hope

(00:45):
that this episode conserve as a reminder to keep that
awareness going all year round. So today we're going to
be covering mental health themes in Star Wars, and believe me,
there are many. Anakin was known to say, this is
where the fun begins, and I'd like to think with
this bonus episode, this is where the healing begins. Now,
I'm a mental health advocate. I very much believe in
open discussions about mental health, and you open and honest discussions.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
I believe in therapy.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
I believe in working in myself, but I am not
a licensed credentialed expert in that field. However, our special
guest today is so joining me to break down Star
Wars mental health Tames today is at LMHC. That's licensed
Mental health counselor, Permanent Certified School Counselor, ABA therapist, ABA
being Applied Behavioral analysis and rehab Invocational counselor. This incredible

(01:28):
individual has combined all of that into her own private
practice where she works with people from all around the
world and today that will include galaxies from a long
time ago that are far far away. And not only that,
she also happens to be one of my favorite humans,
and I have no doubt that after this episode she's
going to be one of your favorites too. So please
welcome for the first of hopefully many Potter Rebellion appearances.

(01:49):
The very amazing, the very wonderful Sealy Bahart.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
My gosh, that was like the nicest intro I've ever
gotten it for anything.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Ever, really think with everything about it was true. I
would think that's just how people introduce you all the time,
because here does you.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Well, they think they should want to just follow me
around from now on and you can just do all
my interests wherever I go, just walk into a room.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
And do it.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Absolutely, let's keep it very weird and do it. I mean,
you know, you know me, you know here.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
I feel like that's probably why we became friends.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
This is very true. So Celia, thank you for being here.
And I know we had.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
Discussed this even when we had first gotten the show
onboarded with iHeart like last year, and this is one
of the first thing I said was, Hey, we're about
to do a Star Wars podcast with iHeartRadio, and I
want to bring you on to talk about mental health themes.
And you, as you often are, we're very generous and
said yes, let's do it. And now we're here. So
this has been a long time coming. Even though the

(02:45):
podcast only launched, you know, back in March, we've been
talking about this since like last like I think maybe
even last May or last October.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
So it's almost been a year now.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yep, Yep, totally. And I was so excited when you
asked me because, like you said, it's just flush with
so many mental health themes and it's just it's so interesting,
you know, and every time I rewatch any of them.
I'm like, I want to take notes and like have
my DSM, you know, right near me, and like looking up, Well,
what disorder is this? You know, I'm just going to

(03:15):
diagnose the entire cast.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Well, but that said, and I don't know if this
was part of your training, but I do know what
some therapists that that is part of your training. You
watch film and television shows and kind of do like
your own diagnosis of the characters.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Was that part of your training?

Speaker 1 (03:28):
We did not officially, but we definitely did that with
The Sopranos because the Sopranos was on when I was
in grad school. Shout out to my teacher, Debbie Maggots,
who would doctor Debbie. We would honestly like sit there
and take like episodes and analyze what was going on.
And not only would we analyze Tony, we would analyze

(03:49):
the therapy sessions that that doctor Malfie would give and
what you know, we thought was right or what was
you know, crossing a boundary and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, you know, looking back, I've been doing a rewatch
Quinncidentally enough of the Sopranos because I haven't watched it
since it was on the air, and I was in
college at the time, and I had no idea I
was going to have a future in filmmaking and storytelling.
Rewatching it now and just understanding this is the kind
of television I was on in like the early two
thousands is pretty mind blowing. But also there the tendency

(04:19):
of showing therapists on screen. It is like they're the
problem solvers, they have all the answers. But to my knowledge,
and maybe JC can fact check us on this, and yes,
jac still is here. Everybody, to my knowledge, that's the
first time at least I ever saw a therapist talking
to another therapist and showing that they're not these perfect beings.
Because like, I love those episodes in season two when
Doctor Melthie's talking to her therapists and thinking about having

(04:41):
to talk to Tony and all this stuff, and Ted
Lasso did it recently, but rewatching like, oh wow, they
were doing this in the early two thousands. This is
pretty incredible, And I don't think a lot of us
got that message of how forward thinking that was.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, I think you're right, And I mean, it's interesting
because in my program, you had to be in therapy
if you were becoming a therapist, and I say that
to most people who are going back to school, and like,
make sure you go at therapy, even if it's not
something that your program says that you should do, because
it's you do have to download. I mean, I have
a therapist, and yes, most of my sessions with my

(05:16):
therapist tends me like me being like oh my god,
like I have to, you know, purge out what I
heard all week, and also I want to check myself
and did I handle this right? And you know, it's
nice to have somebody else to talk to you about it.
So yeah, although she broke confidentiality a few times, and
in the Soprano, it's that, you know that dinner party scene.

(05:37):
I remember very clearly there's a dinner party scene that
happens at some point that they talk about it, and
they all know that Tony is her client, which nobody
should have known. So it was like it got a
little dicey at times in that show.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
I do remember that that was in season one of it,
and she's having this family dinner and they're all kind
of like treeing it, like the elephant in the room.
I know exactly what you're talking about, and even Ted Lasso,
there was moment where because to my knowledge, this is
something that you probably shouldn't do into anyone out there,
maybe this and you can correct me to Celia if
I'm an if I'm incorrect here, but remember Sarah Nile's

(06:10):
character in ted Lasso, Doctor Sharon. Yeah, of course, there's
a scene where people are asking or like, hey, just
cash out the bar, like hey, what do you think
of this? And to my knowledge, technically you shouldn't do
that because for whatever reason, like because if you're not
her patient and all she's doing is going off with
this little tidbit you're giving at like a bar where
you may be inebriated, technically that person can sue doctor

(06:33):
Sharon if something led to like a wrong decision. So
you know, like, is that my correct in that, because
I've heard other mental health professionals tell me that you
got to be careful about if people come with you
at a party to not like diagnose them or let
them know like, hey, this isn't an official diagnosis, but
if you want to make an appointment, we can talk.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
About exactly right, exactly that, and I do that all
the time. And also people will ask me, I mean God,
I'll be on like a date and they're like are
you Are you analyzing me right now? And I'm like no,
And then I think in my head and if I will,
and probably I am. I'm not.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
I am now exactly I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
But thanks for that. Yeah, no you're not. It's true.
And people will always ask you things like that as
a therapist, and yes, that's the correct answer. It's like,
I can't really give you, you know, I don't work
with you. But if you want to, you know, shoot
me a text and have a session with me, that's
something totally different.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yeah, you're touching on so many really important points here
because I look at therapy as I think the most
important part of therapy to me is the other twenty
three hours, Like the hour you have with your therapists.
That's like to me, it's like you go to the Jimmy,
get your workout on with your trainer, But that's just
the request for your body to change. The real implementation
and the real change happens the other twenty three hours.

(07:42):
Using fitness as an analogy, you're nutrition in your sleep,
your recovery, that's what's actually going to lead to physical
changes in your body if you're on a fitness regimen,
and it's the same thing with our minds. We don't
view it that way because our minds aren't as tangible
as like building muscle. But that one hour with the therapist,
I look at it, Okay, this is where I'm workshopping,
this is where this is where I'm working the muscle.

(08:03):
This is where I'm making a request for Okay, what
kind of new information can I get? But the actual
implementation is going to happen the other twenty three hours
or the other six days, so you get to the
next week and then you get That's how you make
the progress in your session. So you're you're touching on
so many great things that I hope that people can
take the heart listen to this.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah I do too, And and you know, it's the
same as exercise, like you said, or actually even like
watching a TV show or reading a book. You got
to let things settle and sit with them. That's been
I think the biggest lesson for me in my own
therapy is to sit with things like I don't need
to react, and I think in this society, you know,
with everything at our fingertips and being able to comment

(08:42):
online and to send the text and you know all
that stuff. It's like nobody sits with things, and that's
where you end up with all this you know, outward
hate and rage and a lot of you know, ignorance
and intolerance and all that kind of stuff. And you know,
I think, you know, back to even Anakin, like if
you just sat the same thing, you know, but he

(09:03):
but he he had other issues that make that not
easy for him to do.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Oh yes, And we're going to get into that in
this episode and then but basically, what Celia is saying
is that the Jedi Council should have mental health protocols
because even the NBA and NFL and the MLB, all
the professional sports leagues, they all have mental health protocols now,
which those are in place seeing the nineties for someone
like a Michael Jordan or anyone who's in the forefront,
you know, who knows the difference it would have made.
I don't like the deal in hypotheticals too much, but

(09:29):
the fact that those protocols are in placed now is
huge because and because everyone's so much more exposed now
in the nineties, as you know, it's mainstream media now,
is it or newspapers, but now it's any places media.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Any place is paparazzi.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Oh and any place is trauma. I mean, you know,
you'd have to go and like actually open a newspaper
or watch the news to see anything horrific. Now you
open up your phone and you don't know what you're
going to see, and it's if and people don't realize
that takes a toll on us. Right you're opening up
there's animal abuse, there's some sort of you know, bigotry
or war or you know these explicit things. And yes,

(10:05):
a lot of the time it says, you know on
your phone, like don't tap this if you don't want
to see it, but everybody taps it, and then you're
able to swipe it and see the next trauma and
the next trauma and the next trauma. That's what you're
feeding your brain all day. And that's I think a
really you know, it's a huge part of what's been
going on in our society is social media and just
having everything at our fingertips like this.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
That is such a profound thing for you to say,
because I feel like because of that, whether we're consciously
thinking about or not. And I'm going to consciously think
about it now. It's almost like we have this anticipatory
trauma before we open our social media apps.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
Absolutely, you don't know what you're going to see and
you kind of do and you hope it's going to
be something great, you know, but it might be like
a you know, a kitten video or something fun like that,
a kid falling down. Those are always kind of funny, sure,
you know, especially when it's one of my kids, then
it's really funny. Or it just might be me, you know,
right exactly for my best friend Journey, but her and

(11:05):
I both had the ADHD brain, so we share that
in common.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
That's also why her and I are buds.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yes, she and I have discussed that.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, our synergies definitely line up. But somehow we still
get stuff done, which is like the the you know,
fascinating thing about it.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Usually you get two ADHD people.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
In a room, it's like, well, we're just gonna you know,
hyper focus on twenty different things.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
But somehow we we bring it all back. It might
take us a little bit, but we will get there.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
I know. It's HERD and my OCD and that's what
makes us a pretty good team. So I mean, you know,
she's all over the place with these amazing ideas, and
I'm always like, rein it in Ran, come here. I
have to do the things because I get that, you know,
wrapped up in my own OCD. So yeah, I hear it.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
We all have our quirks.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, And I adore you both so much, and I'm
so thankful to her for ultimately leading for us connecting.
And you know this, it just makes me believe that
past lives are a real thing. I think the people
you that you really click with and become part of
your circle, you know, it's just if you if you
buy into Socrates theory or recollection. I'm like, I think
we're just uncovering what was there, uh, you know, in

(12:10):
terms of knowledge and in terms of friendships and this
sort of bonding. And certainly once I met Jody officially,
once I met you, I'm like, oh, like, I think
we just found each other in this life.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
That's so, that's what it felt like.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
I totally agree. And I remember that I met you,
and I guess we should say we're talking about Jody Sweeten, Yes,
who I famously once said, oh that girl that has
the unfortunate coincidence of having the same name as the.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
Girl from All That's Right when you didn't realize that
she was actually the jo.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
And shout out to Jody. We love Jody so much.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
I love her so much. Yeah, she we menage other
at a comedy show of hers. Like that's what it
was as a family dinner, I want to say. And
I just remember I think she gave you a shout
out in the show. But I just remember like looking
up and you you were laughing so hard at something
that I also thought was like hilarious, but we were
like one of the only two people that caught it,

(13:02):
or maybe we're our sense of humors were just like
so weird that we were like a And I just
remember like eye contact and being like, oh, we should
be friends because whatever.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
I think, I know what you're talking. I know that
you're talking about because I brought a few of my
friends there, yep. And my friend was telling some weird
story about her dad, and Mike Glazer was on that
panel with Jodi, and the two of them said something
really fun. I can't and they'll come back to me
probably after we've done recording, but I do remember that
new I did make anye contact.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
I do remember that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
I'm just remember being like, oh, he knows this is
like a wrong thing to laugh at, and he's also laughing.
The rest of the audience was like, wait is that funny?
Can I laugh at this? And we are both like
like what, Because you know, trauma's funny. Sometimes that's a
little bit.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
This is true hashtag trauma is funny, brought to you
by pot of rebellion. And so let's give a So
what got you into the fields of work you're in
now as this really accomplished mental health profession?

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Know who you had?

Speaker 3 (14:01):
This sort of gecundo Bruce Lee philosophy if you have
all these different areas, but you combine them into something
that fits who you are and then can then retrofit
to who you're talking to.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
So how did you get into this profession?

Speaker 1 (14:13):
It's a really odd story. I honestly, I was kind
of always the kid that you know, people came and
talked to and told all their stuff too. And I
always liked helping people. But you know, then I decided
I wanted to be an actress slash rock star. So
I actually went to undergrad for theater and that panned
out real well and definitely money well spun, and I

(14:37):
moved to New York City eventually after I graduated and
I was working for Showtime. I worked for Sundance Channel
and Showtime Networks in the creative department for I think
like seven years total, I want to say. And I
happened to have jury duty one day and that day

(14:59):
was not eleven, And so where I If anyone knows
New York, you know, I was working at sixteen thirty
three Broadway. That was it still is, the Paramount Building
across from the Winter Garden Theater where Cats is now
and forever. And I was way downtown, so I was
in I mean, I was completely in range of the
towers coming down everything. And I got stuck on the

(15:21):
subway for forty five minutes when the first tower was hit.
But I didn't know that none of us knew what
was going on. It was just due to an earlier incident.
The train's going to stop and the last stop will
be blank. I can't remember what it was. And I
just remember thinking I'm going to be late. And I
booked all the way down to the courthouse, and when
I got there, the National Guard was there and they

(15:44):
I didn't know what was going on, because like any
New Yorker, I was walking with my head down and
I said, you know, what's going on? And he said,
the last thing we heard was that a plane has
struck the Pentagon, so you need to get out of
here as fast as possible. And I thought like, oh,
I guess they're just being cautious with federal buildings. And
I walked a little bit further the wrong way, by
the way, like toward the yeah, toward the trade towers,

(16:07):
and then there was a group of people in the
park listening to the radio, because that's what you did then,
and they were talking about how people were jumping out
out of the buildings, and I thought, well, and I stopped,
you know, and I'm just horrified, and I said, what's
going on? And they were like, look up. And then
a police officer came by on horseback actually and said,

(16:28):
you guys all have to get uptown as fast as possible. So,
to make a long term story short, I was able
to get away. I was really lucky. I found refuge
in a pizza place, and I was with two people
who should have been in the towers at that time
and were already starting to go through what I now
know is survivor's guilt. And after that, once I made

(16:50):
it home and I was safe, I went and started
volunteering with the Red Cross down there for a while,
and I would just talk to people and I just
sort of it didn't feel like my life had a
real purpose. In entertainment, I just didn't feel it anymore.
It felt silly. When you know, I was a boss
was freaking out about getting the interstitial of the new

(17:13):
you know, Marley Mattlin movie done. I was like, this
doesn't feel like something people should be so freaked out about.
I want to do something that really helps people. And
so at first I thought I wanted to be a
school counselor. That's the permanent, certified school counselor stuff. But
I went back. I applied to Hunter because Hunter College
has a really broad counseling department and degree, and then

(17:34):
you can add in the things that you want. And
so I thought, well, I'm just gonna I'm going to
get a counseling degree, and I'm going to become a therapist,
and I'm going to get and I want to work
in a school. I didn't end up working in a school.
I did end up working in upstate New York with
at risk kids in a federal program called WEA, and
I worked for Workforce New York, which was really fascinating

(17:56):
and I learned a lot, and sometimes it was really
hard lessons, especially with at risk kids. But I just
I love helping.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
I just do.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
I love helping people, Like I mean, people say to
me all the time, I don't know how you listen
to what you listen to every day, and I'm like,
it's an honor. I mean, really it is. It's an honor.
People are trusting me with their deepest, darkest fears, you know, secrets, traumas,
things that have happened to them that I can't wrap
my own head around. And I think it is something

(18:26):
I wish everyone could sort of go through the training,
especially just to gain empathy for other people's situations. You know,
you don't have to have experienced it to feel for
other people. And so I'm just really grateful that I
got to do that. And then I moved my family
across country to California to hopefully start my practice, which
I did, and I started working with my girlfriend Alice

(18:48):
and Porter on this thing called the Little Mamas which
was a website but also is a support group on
Facebook and we have about three thousand and four thousand
moms in there, wow, all over the world, which has
been amazing. And then and I met That's where I
met Jodi in Little Mamas, and then we started our podcast.
Never thought I'd say this until our children were like,

(19:10):
honest to God, if you say one more thing about us,
I have.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
And I was a listener to that podcast, by the way,
before I knew you. So we've had these very parallel
paths to each other. It's pretty cool, funny.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
It was a lot of fun to do. It really was.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
Oh it sounded like it was a blast to listen to.
And I'm the one on the treadmill laughing, and I'm
just the weird guy laughing with my big headphones on.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
But I was like, if you all knew what I
was listening to, you'd understand. But you know Philistines.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Exactly, that's their loss.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
So that's an incredible history that you have, and it
just goes into this natural I guess skip to you have,
just like how Jedis are kind of born for sensitive.
It's like a genetic factor. At least that's my interpretation. Again,
jac will come in at the end with some of
the factoids about that, but not only that, you are
a huge Star Wars fan. We've talked about a lot
of geeky. We've nerded out about a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
Were my Star Wars shirt, And just so you know,
because I have fleck crazy leggings and I wear them
to yoga class, I am wearing Star Wars leggings. It's
Chewbacca on one leg and on the other leg it
is Han Solo. Just as a this is all you know,
they'll shout out to you, guys.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Hey, appreciate the leggings there. Well, thanks Harrison Ford, because
that's probably what he would say. He's like, oh wow, I.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Like your shirt as well. By the way, I just
realized what this.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Is the shirt that you and Jody graciously got me,
and I adore the shirt just like I adore both
of you.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
So you're a big Star Wars fan.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
And with everything you just said, the reason I wanted
to ask about your mental health consoling history first is
because I'd imagine like you weren't. I'm sure you're always
an empathetic person and something like you just said, people
always came to you. But I would imagine watching Star
Wars after your training made it much different because you're
starting to just see these little nuances. Because I don't
think people realize in any movie, even when you go

(20:58):
back to like movies in the seventies, especially like Anything
Goes Ere of Hollywood, mental health games are everywhere. There's
just risen to the forefront now because the discussions are
more open, and there's mental health counselors on set and
they're in the writer's room, but they're everywhere, but very
much so in Star Wars. And this just goes to
so how I've had the curb George Lucas always was
in terms of character building and world building.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think even there's always that
one scene in the UH in the original, on the
first one that I always thought, like, God, that kid
needs to like talk to someone, And it's when Luke
is just complaining about everything to his aunt and uncle,
and I just remember thinking like, Wow, you know, you're
just like really ungrateful and clearly have some pants up

(21:40):
rage or something going on. And that was even as
a kid, But rewatching them now, it's really actually hard
to not see all of that and not turn my
brain off and from like analyzing it, because that's all
I kind of want to do. And then I have
to kind of be like, well, you know what, I
should just watch the movie and enjoy it, because it's
hard to separate those two things. But I, you know,

(22:03):
but it is enjoyable. It is really because it's fascinating
to see and to actually like pick themes out and stuff.
Just like any you know, good story. You want to
be able to have themes and symbolism and a fair
amount of trauma. You know, that's what makes a good story.
And we've got that in Star Wars. So why wouldn't
I love that?

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (22:20):
Absolutely, And that's why, you know, stories that do put
thought into characters like Star Wars does, and the amount
of thought into the world building. Those kind of movies
become the gift that keeps giving because when those themes
are ever so present, even if you don't see them
right away, you're going to see them as you learn
more about yourself and maybe learn more about mental health.
Learn the moment I learned the term emotional dysregulation, I
started learning about anticipatory grief, and I started learning those

(22:42):
terms like the way my brain was like, oh okay,
Like now now I can connect the dots, like and
the procedural shows with the red yarn. That's kind of
how my brain is, Like I've got a lot of
stuff on the corkboard, but like I'm not sure where
to connect it. Yeah, once I get that little bit
of like a bread chrumb likening terms, And I think
a lot of people are that way too, because people
know they're feeling something, but once you can give a

(23:03):
name to it, I know that that's always helpful to
translate what's really going on in their brains.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. It's funny because my my kids
will say things like you know, oh, I had secondhand
embarrassment watching that, and I one of them said the
other day and I was like, do you talk with
that around your friends? Like are they like what? How
did you hear that thing? And you know, and like
my kid was like, oh yeah, like oh great, you know,
like that's obviously, And then it was my son Alex,

(23:33):
and Alex was like well, but then I just say,
you know, like my mom's a therapist. I mean, this
is just how we talk in our house. I was like, wow,
that's I'm sure that's very popular. I mean, you know
you're going to be real popular.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
There with that hashtag my mom's a therapist, the challenge
on on TikTok I guess coming soon.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah. So let's let's dive in.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
Let's dive in now with and just like with Star Wars,
I wondered how invest in characters. I want to make
sure you all invest and Celia as a person, and
just because we don't get to hang out as much
as we like, so this was like also another excuse
for us to hang out. So let's dive into the
mental health things of Star Wars. Specifically, we're gonna talk
about Anakin Skywalker today, slash Darth Vader everybody, because we

(24:13):
are in the twentieth anniversary year of Revenge of the
Sith and as you know, we did a bonus episode
with Alex Damon from Star Wars explain commemorating that. So
today we're going to go over Anakin specifically as a
like a jump off point to hopefully a much larger
conversation because, like I said at the beginning, I hope
this is the first of many appearances of you coming
on too.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
So so and thank you again for having me on.
This is very fun and exciting and not something I
would usually get to do, so I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Oh well, we'll make it a regular thing. We'll talk.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
So here's where I'm going to start, just on the
broad sense of what I think about Anakin Skywalker slash
Darth Vader, because Anakin is supposed to be the Prophecy,
the chosen One, you know, who's going to bring balance
to the force. He's all powerful being who's potential is limitless.
Even as Darth Vader, he's this very powerful sith Lord.
Yet he's still taking orders from like Embra Palpatine, Grandma Target,

(25:02):
you know, he's still respecting the hierarchy even though he's
the most powerful one. So the thing that comes to
mind for me is Anakin slash Dark Vater has daddy issues,
and that's where my brain goes. And we're seeing the
impact of somebody who didn't have that positive male role model.
So I would love to start with like the consequences
of that. I like, we're seeing the consequence of that
rather of those dad issues and than not having the

(25:25):
positive male role model.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
I do think that's part of it. I also, if
I had to diagnose Anakin, I would. I actually think
he is a mental health disorder. I think he is
borderline personality disorder. He actually exhibits all the signs of
the borderline personality disorder client and so. And I actually
like took notes because I was like, I know this

(25:48):
would come up, so I will tell you. So here's
some of the things that BPD actually impulsivity, anger, outbursts,
and identity crisis. If that doesn't up what's going on
over there, I really don't know what does. Some could
say he's got sociopathic tendencies. I'm not really sure about that.

(26:08):
I think that might be a nurture versus nature sort
of situation. But I think the thing that you're touching
on is it's certainly a daddy issue, but more than anything,
I think for him, it's abandonment issues he has. You know,
he's a fear of losing his mother, then he's got
fear of losing his wife, and it just sort of

(26:29):
highlights all of the fears of abandonment. And I think
that does you know, And that's why I think he
takes orders from everybody else around him. He is BPD.
He's a borderline personae of disorder. He wants to please,
he doesn't want to be abandoned, so he will do
whatever that it takes to be able to stay relevant
with them.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
So you're almost touching on something like almost like a
Stockholm syndrome. Would you say that, like does it kind
of toe the line between that of you know, because
when you think about it, Palpatine was grooming We meet
Anakin Skywalker, he's nine years old in The Phantom Menace,
So you think about it, you know, Palpatine is almost
grooming him from this young age, and he's the one

(27:08):
love bombing him a little bit, and it's almost But really,
at the end of the day, like Palpatine did not
have his best interests at heart. But I think because
Palpatine was the only one who seemingly believed in him,
because he felt what you want is holding them back,
you know, he felt like that the Jedi Council didn't
give a master status in episode three. And this is
to say nothing of the disassociation, which we'll get into
in episode two with the same people. So I almost

(27:31):
I don't know, like in your expert opinion, I when
everything you said there, Stockholm syndrome came to my mind
just now.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Well, it's more I think of a mental abuse and
mental manipulation is what has happened to him again, you know,
BPD barbar and personality disorder BPD is is a really
tough diagnosis because again, like it's not clear, as most
things are not necessarily here if it's nurture versus nature.

(27:58):
And I think that because he has such abandonment issues,
he's just very easily manipulated at that time, and he
is looking for that father figure to tell him that
he is good, that he's a good because he's also
has that inner struggle of whether or not he is good.
He struggles with anger at you know, when he's a child,

(28:19):
he has those outbursts which you know might be a
behavioral disorder as well. Operational behavior behavioral defiance would probably
be something that was in you know, his therapist repertoire
if they were working with him. Sure, but I think
he's really really looking it doesn't matter where the love
comes from, right. It's like what people tell parents if
the toddler throws a tantrum and you scream at them,

(28:41):
they don't really it doesn't matter. They're just looking for
the attention from you. So you know, yelling and making
them more upset isn't necessarily going to do the trick.
It's not going to stop them from having that outburst.
And that's pretty much how Anakin is there his entire life.
I mean, even once he becomes Vader like, he has
these outbursts, but when somebody tells him, you know, gives

(29:04):
him praise or whatever it is, he takes it and
he wants to do what they want. He is very
people pleasy because of the abandonment issues.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
That isn't I don't think I've ever heard anybody refer
to Darth Vater as a people pleaser. That is very interesting.
Can we expand on that a little bit, because that's
very interesting to me?

Speaker 1 (29:22):
But think about that because he because he is right
like he gets, he gets they tell him what to do,
and he's like, oh, I'll do it. You know, kill
that person. I kill that person. He has his outbursts
and all you know, everything happens. He wants to please, please, please,
And then when he's finally with you know, Luke at
the in the in the end, he is he switches

(29:43):
right because all of a sudden, Luke is like, you're
you're my father and don't do it. And then it's like,
oh wait, now I'll please this person. He's telling me
I'm something different, so I'm going to and this feels nice,
this positive reinforcement. He's actually telling me that I'm good inside.
These people have been in coouraging me to be successful
because I'm evil and I'm wanting me to be dark,

(30:05):
and this person's telling me I can make another thing
and he'll love me also, So I'm gonna flip now,
which is another borderline thing to please this person and
turn around and do that. It is and borderline personality
disorders tend to be people pleasers, and not in the
sense of somebody who that's a cat. Sorry, I'm not somebody,

(30:26):
not in a people please the sense where you know,
some people end up being people pleasers because they've been
you know, emotionally dysregulated or abused and it is just
in their personality to want to make everybody happy. That's
not really where he's at, Like, that's not the kind
of people pleaser that Anakin slash, you know, Vader is.

(30:46):
It's more of a I want to feel things and
if in these people make me. When this person treats
me this way I feel. This is how I feel.
I feel important and I feel well, I feel like
I'm doing something real. And because they can disassociate so much,
so that's you know, I think that's where he that's

(31:09):
where he falls.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
That is so fascinating here and all that. Uh And
if I went silent, notts because I'm just absorbing, you
know me. I like to just absorb the information like
I'm Johnny five and short circuit too, just like taking
in all the input.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
But it's like two things on the mind.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
One again, first I said it was fascinating, but two
it's like Vader needed someone like yourself to put Like again,
I was talking about attaching terms to a certain feeling.
He certainly feels that he just can't put a like
a term to it. And Anakin's like a supercomputer. Its
lies Vader, Like you tell him something, he's going to
compute it in like a like a Doogie howser prodigy sense,
he's going to get it right away. And yeah, and

(31:47):
everything you just talked about, and especially with the borderline
personality disorder, because because yours also the first to really
tell say that out loud, at least, you know, maybe
others have said it, but first time I've actually heard that,
and I believe there's a term when Borderline called favorite person.
And when I think about that, and we've talked about
this for all of our listeners a couple of weeks

(32:08):
ago when we did the twentieth anniversary special. On episode three,
JC touched on Anakin's obsession with Padme. There's a love,
but there's like an obsession and it almost but I
feel like you saw in episode three the favorite person
and also how the favorite person become your least favorite
person over the arc of that that show.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Am I onto something here with that?

Speaker 1 (32:26):
You absolutely are? And I think that's partly the Again,
it's some of it is the abandonment stuff, and a
lot of it is that impulsivity that he has and
the emotional you know, dysregulation that he has, and so
you know, he just can't really like, he can't stay
connected to somebody in a positive way when there's somebody

(32:50):
on the opposite side pulling him to the dark side
because he it's whoever is more powerful and whoever is
eating whatever demon that is at the time, and she
does try so hard, you know, you see that love
with them in the beginning and you do have like
this hope for him, just like you see it at

(33:11):
the end when he's with Luke. But he's always pulled
back into and I think it's because he's got those
rage and anger management issues. He's pulled back into that,
and that's what will flip him into Well, now you're
going against this other person who's known me longer, who's
given me more, who says I am this very big,
powerful thing, which, by the way, is another part of

(33:32):
BPD is grandiosity, and he has that. He wants to
be told that. So when she's showing him so much
love and she's trying to make him feel loved, in
his mind, it goes to a place, I think where
he starts to feel small. He equates that happy feeling
and that being good feeling with being small, which honestly

(33:54):
is sort of It's highlighted in the last of his
last scene when he is fatter and the mask comes off.
It's like he goes from this very big, you know
thing who's encapsulated and it's all hard shelling and casing
and all that stuff, right, and then it comes off
and he's just this small, you know, hurt old man basically,

(34:15):
and it's that's who he is, truly, but he's built
up this armor and I think that's, you know, very
symbolic of Vader's uniform, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Absolutely, because by episode three, the full disassociation happens. I believe,
let's dive in the Attack of the Clones really quick,
because there was a lot of things of oh, he
didn't really become Dark Vader when he put the mask on.
That was just the symbolism of the full disassociation. We
always the whole thing is he's started to really start
the transformation to Vader. The moment he went back to Taitowen, yes,

(34:45):
and he sees his mother was killed by sad people,
and it was I think it was that moment right
before he killed the same people when the disassociation started.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
You're absolutely right, that's his psychotic break. Yeah, yeah, I
think in that moment he had a psychotic break. I
really do. I mean that everything he demonstrates in that
and is that and BPD you know, are prone to that.
So yep, absolutely, I completely agree with that.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
So with that, because we're talking about nature versus nurture
and certain genetic markers, this is something that Anakin was
most likely born with But like that moment of disassociation
was like the catalyst to have that psychotic break you're
talking about it, Yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Well, I think there was a lot of things that
were leading up to it. Right. It was like he's
had these sort of think of it as because there's
so much there's always been an emotional dysregulation with him,
and there's always been someone sort of poking at him,
and a little bit of his need for being validated. Right,
That grandiosity is there from when he's like little little

(35:45):
And I think it's a lot of micro cuts, right,
Like a lot of micro cuts to his psyche, and
then the final and he's already battling BPD and then
the final straw is that And is you know seeing
his mom and after the sad people murder. Yeah, I
think that that's exactly what happens.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
And I you know, I don't know if I mean,
part of me is like, wow, if only he'd had
a therapist early on and someone to confide in and
talk to, that would have changed it.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
But who knows, you know, who knows? Because you don't
know how powerful the outside world is to him that
and how honest he's going to be in therapy. And
what we know about Anakin is also he's not always
honest with his feelings because he cannot really wrap his
head around them most of the time. The most comfortable
feeling that he has is anger. That's the one he uses,

(36:32):
which you know, anyone who's been angry before, you tend
to know that as you calm down from your anger,
that there's a lot of other emotions underneath that, and
you're like, oh, I got here because my anxiety said
and then then I was afraid. I mean, fear is
usually the thing that triggers us, right, So if you
look at it, he is really just afraid of everything

(36:54):
all the time. But because of the BPD he's got,
he's like, no, I won't be afraid. I am amazing.
Everyone tells me that I'm amazing and I can do
all these things. So I'm going to do everything that
they say that I can do. It doesn't matter if
it's good or bad. If it gets me seen, if
it makes me feel bigger than I am and not weak,
then I'll be doing that.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
I'm just subsorbing everything.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
So two things kind of mine with that one with
the disassociation, Yeah, in episode two and then episode three
is like he's getting validation that in his mind is
on the right path, and which leads into a term
I've heard recently called a couple called the psychological immunity
system or like mental gymnastics.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, it was the term I've heard.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
I love that one.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
It's this amazing book by Keith Paine. Are you familiar
with him? I am, Yeah, he wrote Did you read
his latest book about it? Was like called Good Reasonable People.
I think it just came out in the last couple
of months. I just got finished, and I feel like
you would really appreciate it because he talks about he
tries to find the reasoning of why people are so
married to certain ideologies and why like they're so like

(38:00):
right or die with this, And I see that a
lot in Anakin, because he's trying to find validation that
what he did on Tito Win was the right move yep,
and what his decisions and his feelings are are the
right move which are validated by Palpatine, because Palpatine, like
I said, he has been grooming him since like the
age of nine.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
So I think with you just alluded to maybe in
this therapy session that those mental gymnastics may have come
into play where he has to justify because no one
wants to believe they're a bad person. And even at
the key line is from my point of view, the
Jedi or evil. So I think that line hits so
differently now because back then I'm like, well, no, it's

(38:35):
not like, that's not what it is. But when you
understand where he may be coming from, he's trying to
justify in his brain, and you really support his psychological
immune system to validate he's making the right choice.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, And that leads me to if I had to
make a secondary diagnosis of him, I would say he
is heap wrought. He exhibits tendencies of bipolar disorder as well,
and that's where that would fit in. Right, That's a
lot of mental gymnastics happens with bipolar people, and you know,
and that disassociation because you can you know, hit manic

(39:10):
and depressed and you you I mean people think that
those when the way it's been portrayed in a lot
of shows, uh, you know, bipolar disorder and and borderline
for that matter, but bipolar more than that is like
they're you know, if they're manic. They are just completely
uh you know, artsy and happy and creating and you know,

(39:33):
and they don't really show that. Actually that's not always true, right,
It's like they get abusive and uh you know, ragey
and all that. And then when it's the when you
go into a depressive episode, people think, oh, they just
like can't get out of bed, and that's also not
always true. People mask that part really really well. They
might you might just not hear from them for a while.
And I see that in him, especially if you know,

(39:56):
and I think if he had a therapist, that's probably
where this would have gone. And if he had just
been and you know, borderline until that moment of the
same people, he probably switched over to you know, bipolar
kick like that was the trigger that started that those
things because you don't see it really until then, Like
you said, that disassociation happens when he breaks and then

(40:18):
from then on you kind of do see it. You know,
he has moments of being like really and his high
is definitely fighting and doing you know, murderous things, and
but his low those come when he's feeling really vulnerable,
like that's you know, where he is where he's just
like he doesn't know anymore who he is. You see

(40:41):
him struggle with it when he's you know, with Padman
a lot, Like he's just not that's he's a different
person at you know, well at times until he's not.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, he's very much.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
And I think we talked about this before when we
were texting kicking ideas before the officially recorded that Nathaniel
Hawthorn quote which was in the Sopranos about you know,
when you were in two different faces, it's going to
come to a point you're not sure which one is
the real one or you talking about the Kirk Bonica
quote of be careful who you pretend to be, because
you will.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Be who exactly. Well again, like and that's a perfect
quote because like you know, he is two people at
the by the end, he literally is by playing bipolar
and he's two different people and two totally different personalities,
and he has the mask on like it's really very
it's completely what you know what that quote says he becomes.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Literally, so he really is just a complex and like
in a fascinating character study because there's so many layers
to it, you know, and as a kid, like when
I watch Star Wars, I just you know, they say
only assit deals in absolutes. But it's like, as a kid,
that's all you know. It's like, this is the good guy,
this is the bad guy. So that's all you know.
But then the more we dig into this, and even
just like talking to you about and I've I've watched
a lot of Star Wars and I've rewatched quite a bit,

(41:48):
and you know me, I'm like I said, a very
curious brain.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
I'm going to be researching whatever.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
But you know, this comes to mind, and I'll touch
on this really quick because even when we see the
version of Vader and Brogue one or this is like
the full on like you know, this is I'm fully
leaning in and this is Vader like super super viscer
role and super super brutal. But then you know, even
in Star Wars Rebels, he shows up and he you know,
he basically diss is the Anakin Skywalker persona.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
He's like, no, he was weak. I destroyed him.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
And then you talk about the Canoby series, which I
don't know if you got a chance to watch that.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
They didn't watch that, so you should.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Know that's not true. I did.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
I don't know, I'm true, but you know, how he
had his he had Reva, and he's repeating that basic
like almost the cycle of abuse with with Riva. And
and it's fascinating to see Vader with Reva versus Anakin
with Ahsoka, because it's like Ahsoka was his chance to
be the good mentor and unfortunately didn't pan out that way.
And then with Riva, by that time, he's full on

(42:45):
Darth Vader, and he's like, I guess some sort of
version of intergenerational trauma is what what I could call it.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Look at the same way that he was groomed. I mean,
it's all he knows, right, I mean, that's that's actually
statistically completely after it, you know, I mean that was
what I actually did. My my thesis on when I
was in grad school was that, you know, abusers, anyone
who is abusers, tend to raise abusers. They don't mean to,

(43:14):
but they tend. But you know, you really have to
fight that if you were abused at any point. And
it's also why you know, children who were abused end
up usually in relationships that are abusive, so you know,
and either they become the abuser or they continue to
be abused because it feels familiar. And that's a whole
thing with you know, with Anakin and Darth is that

(43:35):
it's like homeostasis is a powerful thing. He is not
somebody that likes things to go the way he didn't plan,
you know. He wants everything to go his way and
stay the same. And if there's like a big change
and it's not how you know he planned it, that's
where he completely flips out because he can't he can't
do he can't do it, even if it's somebody you know,

(43:55):
talking back to him. He can't handle that in the end,
and that's so much part of that. But it's the
same thing that was done to him. I mean, any
you know, he spoke out a turn, he got in trouble,
and trouble being a lot different than you know, being
sent to your room.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, very much.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
So it's very much almost I almost think of like
arrested development in his case where he's going to regress
to that kid version of himself who just knows how
to throw the tantrum, you know, because that's just you
go with what you know. And the homeostasis is such
a great term to use. And then the term you
use like masking because like masking is both that a
fourk onne literal in the case of Darth Vader where

(44:31):
the mask finally comes off. And with that in mind,
the title return the Jedi hits differently because the Jedi
that returns is Anakin.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
That's right when you think about it.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
Yeah, totally, isn't it. By the way, I'm laughing because
you said Arrested Development and it's the wrong show. But
I have three cats announce a lot and they are
all named after the show Arrested Development, and one of
them is currently attacking everything on my table and I'm
hoping he doesn't knock over my computer. And so I
don't know if you watch that show, but Steve Holt,
get off of the table.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
Well, for the sake of our listeners, who you know,
because we are Star Wars Rebel centric podcasts on our
on our core episodes. Yes, those are loathcats in case
you're wondering. So yeah, we're all staying on cannon here.
So I think just to kind of there's so much
more we can do in this is I feel like
we can do like a part two of this, and
maybe we can at some point you can break down
some of the characters and Rebels and we'll get some
of the cast on to talk to you about it.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, I've been watching Rebels. It's great, isn't it. Yeah?
And I don't know that I would have had you
not mentioned it to me and I but I having
I mean already I was like, oh, there's a lot
here just in the first like five episodes.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Oh, the Ezra character alone, and wait till you get
like Taylor is such a Taylor and I are very similar.
He's you know, he's also got the very curious brain.
He's very much like wants information. And I feel like
that's going to be a fascinating combo when that happens.
So with with Anakin, everything we just unwrapped. And because
not all therapy is created equally. And what I mean
by that is because when I started therapy, I was,

(45:58):
you know, what you call treating the symptom because I
was like, I know I'm behaving this way. So my
thinking was, let me go to a behavioral therapist, right,
And then to this woman's credits, who was wonderful. It
was halfway through a session She's like, I don't think
I'm the right therapist. View Like, what do you mean,
I was like, I'm being honest, like, like, what would
I do? She's like, it's not that you need to
go to a trauma therapist, because you need to get

(46:18):
to the why before you can figure out how to
fix it.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
And so I feel like that would have been the
place to start with.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
Anakin's like, let's start with the trauma therapist because again
we meet him at age nine. You're talking about attachment
issues and attachment trauma and raised by a slave, and
he's basically just used as labor, like he's not thought
of as a person, but he's also brilliant. It's almost
like this I call it the will Hunting complex, like
he feels haunted by this gift he head, like where
you can't help but think that maybe he thinks life

(46:47):
would have been easier if he didn't have these gifts,
if he could just be like a normy for lack
of a better term. So would you think that that
would be a place to start, Like, because you got
to unret the trauma before you know, treat the cause
before you really treat this and some sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yes, I'm did you were you in for cognitive behavioral
therapy CBT? Is that what.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yes, That's where I started with, Yes, I like I.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Like DBT as well. Yeah. I anyone who ever comes
to me and hasn't been to therapy before and they
want to do CBT or DPT, which both of which
I love and practice. Uh, that's my first question is, well,
have you done talk therapy yet? Have you gone through
trauma therapy? Because you can, you know, you can do
all the homework you want and write out all of
your for people who don't know a lot of you know,

(47:29):
CBT is homework and it'll be you know, translating your thoughts.
So you'll write, I had a you know, I had
a terrible day and I want to punch people. And
you have to look at that sentence and figure out
how to reframe that in your mind and make it
so that it's not so harsh, right, and it usually
is directed at yourself, and so you know, you're like,
I'm a terrible person. I screwed up everything, And you
want to look at that and then say, you know,

(47:51):
I'm I'm human, I made a mistake. Tomorrow, I'll fix it, right,
That's what we want to train our brains to go.
But what your therapist said, and she was correct, right,
you want to figure out, like but what who told
you were a terrible person to begin? So you got
to go there before you move forward. So yes, I
would say that that's definitely where Anakin should have started.
He he really needed to read the book, you know,

(48:12):
The Body keeps the Score. I mean, I know, I
know everybody's reading it now, but like that's really because
it because it does, and that's where your trauma, you know, sits.
And then if it's untapped and you don't know, then
you're going to probably have a blow up. I say
to clients all the time. It's sorry, it's a gross analogy,
but it's like, honestly, the best one I could ever
think of is that when it comes to trauma and

(48:34):
it comes to grief, think of yourself sort of like
a drain, like a toilet. You can you can flush paper,
towel down a toilet for a pretty long time, but eventually,
what's going to happen. It gets clogged, that's correct, and
then it all all the blank. I don't know, if

(48:54):
you swear on the show, comes flying back out, so
you know, and that and that's kind of what happened
to him, you know, that's what happened. He just kept
shoving the traumas down. And then you have an abuser
and a groomer on the opposite side saying like, oh, no,
use that trauma. Use that trauma to take down the

(49:15):
people that pause that trauma, even though they you know,
they weren't necessarily You get even and you'll feel better.
And I think that that's so much of what's being
told to him his whole life. If you get even,
you'll feel better. And the you know, on the opposite side,
you know, you've got his wife being like, no, that
you can feel better just by being loved. But isn't

(49:36):
that sort of the human condition anyway? You know, It's
like we have to make that choice every day to
either to love and forgive or to stay angry and
act out. And I think that he made his choice,
you know, for a real long time, and then at
the very end again, when that mask comes off, he
chooses something different.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Absolutely, that's so profound. And I love good toilet humor,
so I mean, I appreciate that. So this episode has
been brought to by Coler everybody, So.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
When you were you.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
Use code Celia twenty five or twenty five percent off
your next toilet at coler Post. That that's so that's
so well put. And I had this conversation that the David,
my friend. It's literally last night I said, look, I've
come to the point in my life where I have
I'm at peace knowing that I'm not in control of
what happened in the past. We're not in control of

(50:31):
what happens tomorrow in the future. I'm in control of
how I react or don't react to past events, and
I am in control of being at peace with not
knowing but just being open to whatever the possibilities are. Now,
I'm it sounds like I'm over simplifying, because I am.
It took me many many years to get to this
point and a lot of really honest looks at yourself,
which to anyone out there who may be considering therapy,

(50:54):
just just know, like spoiler, it's very it can be
very frightening and scary because that's our mental gymnastics WePlay,
that's our psychological immune system. You know, we don't want
to believe are bad people. By the end of the day,
if you're working on yourself to try to get there,
you got to understand, like this is going to be
part of the process. It's going to be uncomfortable, but
you look at anything that was worth the dam, you

(51:15):
know you're going to go through discomfort to get to
where you're ultimately going to be going, which whether Anakin
would have been willing to do the work or not,
that's a great what if question. I don't think we can.
You know, maybe we can do a whateip episode, but
it would be like what if he actually the Jedi
Council actually had mental health protocols and like a counselor
on set with them. But we are going to share

(51:41):
some resources, or you're going to share some resources rather
and where people can contact you if they want to
book an apployment. But before we do that, because I've
been talking about jac, I would love to bring jac
on in case we miss messed up any sort of facts.
But so, first of all, JC, did we mess up anything?
Is there anything we need to correct before I feed
you a question, because I would love to hear some
of your thoughts and what we just talked about.

Speaker 5 (52:02):
I don't think so I have some just some clarification
and some confirmation. I could not get any I couldn't
find anything on whether or not The Sopranos was the
first time that a therapist going to therapy to talk
about therapy was was televised. But John, maybe maybe Alan

(52:22):
Thick and Growing Pains. There's an episode there eighties nineties show.
Try to trigger your memory there. Well, thank you for
showing me that smile.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Again, it's very possible that Jodie was on a show
on that show at one point, like, I think she
made that a guest appearance, just as a circling back
to Jodie Sweeten.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Probably, yeah, I think so.

Speaker 5 (52:47):
And then at one point you mentioned that Jedi are
born with the force sensitivity or whatever, which I believe.
You know, the dirty word in Star Wars for a
long time was midichlorians, so much so that they changed
it in the new TV shows to be m count

(53:08):
But I do believe that the level of medichlorians in
their blood is what allows them to access and harness
and manipulate the energy field that is the Force, even
though everybody has mediclorians in their blood. And then again,
looking at the Mandalorian all the way up through the
sequel trilogy, I mean, the whole thing is about Palpatine

(53:29):
trying to clone himself to come back and replicate the
amount of mediclorians he has in the body, showing that
it is kind of a supernatural thing. It doesn't just
happen because of your DNA or whatever.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
The case may be interesting.

Speaker 5 (53:47):
And then the only other thing I have is like,
for anyone who thinks like the prequels aren't good or
Darth Vader's turn is too quick or things like that,
rewind the podcast. Listen to it again with that in mind,
because I think it does everything you guys talked about,
does a really good job of showing that Anakin didn't

(54:08):
just become Darth Vader after the confrontation in Palpatine's office.
It was a journey that started from the point we
meet him, you know, and even before that. And you know,
there's deleted scenes in Stars episode one if you want
to go back with Anakin punching Wald or Greto actually

(54:30):
young Greto in that are not in the movie, that
you can find on the DVD deleted scenes or maybe
on Disney Plus.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (54:40):
So again, you can trace his his issues that were
talked about on this episode all the way back to
nineteen ninety nine.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
I love that because you just said something really interesting
about the mcount thing and it made me think of something.
I feel like because if technically there's some sort of
genetic component component rather to unlock that, that mays lead
it's me to think that maybe, And maybe it's just
because I just rewatched the Accountant movie, but what if
I'm thinking there's some sort of neurodiversity happening with these

(55:09):
four sensitive kids that are able to unlock because like,
as someone who is neurodiverse, I know what it's like
to tap into that hyper focus, which almost feels like
I'm wielding the force. So we don't have to answer
that today. And Steelia, maybe that could be something we
can come back and talk about. But I feel like
there's some sort of neurodiversity happening in order for them
to unlock that. I think maybe we can just sit

(55:30):
with that and not have an answer right now. Just
you've smark that right now, just as you said that,
and my ADHD totally kicked in and you understand the
ADHD brain JC as well. But yeah, I want to
throw it to you now because with all the knowledge
you have, and Celia for in case you don't know,
like Jac's credentials in terms of knowing the things about
Star Wars. Low I always say he doesn't need the
Jedi Temple archives because he is the archives like he

(55:53):
just just has to tap into his brain.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
So with everything you know.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Your background, JC, good Lord, everything back there, I want
to put on one of the start. I want that
right now.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
I want that. The room expands very much, so too
like it. There's a lot of depth to it.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
But with everything you know about Star Wars, Jasey and
our the history you have grown up at the original
trilogy like us, has anything we've said in today's conversation
sparked anything or like made you look at things differently?

Speaker 5 (56:19):
No, you know everything you guys said. I think you
just kind of dove deeper on some ideas that I
had had and some notes I had taken going into this.
The one thought I had for Celia was today we
talked a lot about Anakin's fall and some of the

(56:40):
mental reasons in the Nature versus Nurture that fed into that.
But ultimately, Star Wars is a redemption story. The point
of Star Wars is that love can bring anybody back
from any any sort of atrocity, which you mentioned just

(57:02):
at the end. So I guess my question would be
if you if Anakin Skywalker came to you pre Darth Vader,
then as Darth Vader, and then as the return of
Anakin Skywalker, would your approach to that person's therapy change

(57:25):
based on the version of Anakin you were getting, meaning
the episode two version, is the approach different than the
return of the Jedi version that Luke brings back, And
because Darth Vader is so deep in it, do you
approach them all differently? Or do you attempt to tackle

(57:51):
that the same way with each of those people, because
it's almost like it's the same person, but three different
versions of that person.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
That is such a good question. Yeah, such a great question,
you know. I have my instinct is to say I
would treat them, I would diagnose the same, but the
treatment might change based on which version obviously I'm getting.
I think overall, the thing with Uh, you know, with

(58:24):
him is that he needs consistency, Like that's shown over
and over again with Anakin and Darth Vader. He needs consistency,
and the trauma is the trauma. It's the you know,
it's it's actually what John's saying, like it's how you
response to the trauma. And that's what keeps changing for him,
is like what are his responses to the trauma as
he goes through more and more? You know, I think

(58:46):
it would probably have to start. I mean at some
point he would go to CBT, Like he would absolutely
do cognitive behavioral therapy because you'd need him to write down.
I would need him to write down, you know, what
it was that he was feeling. And so I can
see what's happening in his mind as Vader now as
opposed to when he was you know, Anakin, and how

(59:06):
to get that voice in his head to change, and
also to identify whose voice is that it didn't start
as his right, Like, that's not how he was born,
So he's hearing somebody else's voice telling him that he
is these things. Once we identify those and we have
him start doing homework and the work, it's like then
it's easier to point out because again, remember you know,

(59:28):
I can't remember which of you is. I think John,
you said it like he he grasps things so fast
he can just do them that I think if he
was trained to be able to be to sit with
it right, to look at how he's thinking and then
change the you know, work with somebody to be able
to say like, Okay, you know I'm not I'm not
a horrible, terrible person. I don't need to attack everyone

(59:51):
when I feel attacked. Instead, what I need to think
is I'm a good person who's gone through a lot
of bad things, and my instinct is to attack, and
I don't want to do that anymore. This doesn't have
to be who I am. They have to do that
kind of work with him. I think as it you know,
goes on, he he almost kind of gets there and
it's like you know, super quick sessions with Luke at

(01:00:12):
the end like that, and it is love bringing somebody back.
And I and not to be you know, super California hokey,
but I believe that's true. I do think that you know,
you took that love is the thing that you know
really can bring people back because you invite what, you know,
whatever that that love is you feel from an animal,
from you know, another person, from you know. I don't know,

(01:00:35):
like even if just like your love of nature can bring.

Speaker 5 (01:00:39):
You back, can I ask another question, are you surprised?

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Famously the.

Speaker 5 (01:00:48):
Teaser poster for Star Wars episode two said a Jedi
shall not no fear, nor anger nor love, right, And
it was Anakin impad made back to back. Are you
surprised that there are not more dark Jedi running around
the galaxy due to the Jedi's misguided views on love

(01:01:12):
and how love is not accepted by their order? Like
shouldn't you know they're taking children and putting them through
this indoctrination? Almost are you surprised that there aren't more
fallen Jedi? You know the famously I think there were.
There were twelve fallen Jedi whose busts were in the

(01:01:34):
Jedi Temple archives. I mean, shouldn't there be a ton
of them?

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
No? Statistically speaking, no, because if you think about I mean,
let's look at it like you know, kids that end
up in foster care or in you know, a juvie
for that matter, like that, it's not like, I mean,
there's a small percentage of them that don't get out,
you know, and have to move on to other systems.

(01:02:01):
You know, it's more than it should be, for sure,
because we should be doing more for our population and
certainly for our youth. But it's still going to be
a percentage. And I think those twelve are the ones
that were already had you know, we're already predisposed, probably
genetically to something that was going on or whoever. The

(01:02:21):
you know, the nurture was versus the nature was was
you know, wildly out of whack, and that also could
spark more of a difference, But no, because I mean, look,
we've all been through trauma. So if you look at
it like that, then all of us would be you know, sociopaths, psychopaths,
you know, and I think we're seeing more of them recently.

(01:02:41):
But I you know, I again, I think that's because
of the exposure that people have to things. So I
think the more you're exposed to stuff like that, the
easier it is for you to get lost in it.
But I would say those were the ones that were predisposed.
Who knows, you know, I'd have to we'd have to
have like a whole discussion on ericson and you know,
nurture versus nature and his horrible experience their experiments rather

(01:03:02):
with monkeys, which you know, don't ever google that to
everyone who hasn't ever looked at them, don't ELL's that.
But I do think that that's really what it comes
down to is like you know, I mean even in
like you know, statistically speaking like I have you know,
like I said, I've got these cats, and I've got
they were raised by me, They've been with me the

(01:03:23):
same amount of time. And I've got one sitting very
docily doing the you know, a great job, and the
other one has taken something of Jodie's actually and is
currently trying to swallow it and I'm going to get
it away from him in a minute. So you know,
who knows, Like that's just how that one's predisposed versus
how the other one's predisposed. It's not like they were

(01:03:43):
raised differently. They weren't. This is I mean, that's what
makes us individuals, right I mean, and that is I
mean getting back to Star Wars, I mean, that is
the force, right, like what makes it. It's our it's
spirit and it's what makes us all individual and then
it's different how you use it and if you are predisposed.
It was even like you were talking about, you know,
as far as all the scientific terms that I'm not

(01:04:05):
going to get into because you guys are a dork
gear than I am, which is shocking actually.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Or just getting the tip of the ice.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
Well, I think, well, one, please you have to come back,
and I know you're ready agreed to, but I'm just
going to reiterate that I really would love to make
this a recurring thing. I almost feel like I'll just
speak on myself and JC, I'm sure you agree. I
almost feel like I need to get your Zell information
and thank and like pay you for this therapy session
I got for like the last hour because just like
and this just goes to show over when that mental
health talks don't have to be intimidating. We look, we

(01:04:34):
just utilized Star Wars and a fictional character which is
dealing with like real issues that can apply to real
life to use that as a jump bop point to
have mental health discussions. So mental health discussions don't have
to beat you over the head with it. We can
utilize something you're familiar with and comfortable with, as we
just you know, showed you now to have a really
in depth and very stimulating conversation. If I may say so,

(01:04:55):
I just you got my brain even going more and
wanting more info. And with that said, are there any
resources at the top of your head that you would recommend?
And then also Celia, if people would like to reach
out to you to maybe book a session, and I'll
put this stuff in the description of our podcast episode
as well. But if you learn to leave them with
some of that information to go off of, I think

(01:05:16):
that'd be fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
I think the biggest place or the best thing to
have is the Mentalhealthhotline dot org if you you know,
that's all you guys need to really have anyone who
needs help, and the number is eight three three four
five four three five one six. It's free. You'll get
free immediate mental health support. So if you can start there. Also,

(01:05:38):
you know, if you have insurance, please everyone remember that
you you know, your insurance company will usually even if
they don't cover it, they'll usually help you find a
therapist if you need one. As John said, I do
virtual so I actually work with people even in different
countries because and so my schedule is very weird, and
I give people an option officely, if you're in California,
I have an office at home, so you know, people

(01:06:00):
can come and work with me here, but otherwise I'll
do zoom. And some people actually prefer the phone now
no camera because they find it easier to cry and
open up and to be totally honest, I talk to
my own therapist on the phone for that exact reason.
I have a tough time, shockingly, as you know, crying
about my own stuff. Your stuff, I'll cry about my
own stuff is a whole other secuation. And I do

(01:06:22):
find it easier to open up. So you can find
me online at the Celia Behar is my Instagram and
then you can email me at I think I have
it as Celia Beyhar Counseling at gmail dot com is
what I believe it is. And yeah, I mean, I

(01:06:42):
hope people reach out and I you know, it's funny.
I don't know, you know, we're not talking about other shows,
but just as therapy shows, if you know, if you
guys watch Shrinking, I think Shrink doing a really nice
job of making sure people realize like therapists are actually people.
It doesn't have to be so daunting. I also really
love the sort of fine line they walk with clients

(01:07:03):
and boundaries and stuff, because I know I get attached
to my clients and I'll go out of my way
for clients and I used to really beat myself up
about that, and then that show has made me feel
a lot better about it. So I do think these
topics are great to talk about. And this has been
so much fun because usually it's just me doing this
in my house, you know, watching something and I'm just

(01:07:23):
analyzing it. So to be able to like talk to
people that are just as into it as I am
is really you know, it's really fun and exciting, and
I'm very excited to, you know, keep going back to
Rebels and.

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):
Watching that fantas. I love that so much. And thank
you for sharing the resources. Once again, everybody, we'll put
the in the description of the podcast here, so if
you want to reach out to Celia through Instagram or
through the email, we'll put all the information there for you.
And yeah, but I think for now, like we're just
going to say our goodbyes. But like I said at
the beginning of the podcast, everybody, just because Mental Health Awareness
Month is ending, that doesn't mean the awareness has to end.

(01:07:56):
So if anything, I hope that again going back to Hope,
rebelients and all that stuff, just hope that you take
this information here for.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
What it is.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
This is not an official diagnosis to anybody. Again, if
you need counseling, please like don't take this episode as
official counseling.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
That's not what it was.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
We were here to entertain, we were here to educate,
but were we not here to diagnose anybody. But luckily
we had the licensed professional here you can reach out
to should you want that counseling, but also mental health awareness.
It's nice to have these ten pole events and these
awareness months to centralize everybody's focus. But just know that
awareness can happen all year round, three and six five days,

(01:08:31):
year three and sixty six releap years, and hopefully this
will be somewhat of a spark for that for some
of you all to keep that awareness going. And now, Celia,
Usually what we do to send up the podcast, we say,
cue the music. So will you do the honors and
give us our outro?

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
Yes? Cue the music.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Potter Rebellion is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts, produce
and hosted by Nanssa Marshall, Tia Surkar, Taylor Gray and
John may Brody, executive producer and in house star Wars
guru slash factchecker J. C. Reifenberg. Our music was composed
by Mikey Flash. Our cover art was created by Neil
Fraser of Neil Fraser Designs. Special thanks to Holly friand
Aaron Kauffman over at iHeart, Evan Krasgori, William Morris Endeavor,

(01:09:17):
Tresa Canobio, George Lucas for creating this universe we love
so much, and of course all of our amazing listeners.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Follow us on

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Instagram at Potter Rebellion and email list at Potter Rebellion
Podcasts at gmail dot com